Most unreasonably disliked FF title! Now with 33% more fan bias!

Let's face it. There just seems to be a few FF titles that get a lot of disrespect and usually for asinine reasons. Certainly the popualr games like VI,VII, and X get nailed but they have such an overwhelming fanbase that love them. I'm talking about the games that get overlooked and just plain kicked to the curb whenever you wander into a "Most Popular..." thread.

I have created a poll so we may decide as a community which FF game needs a little more love:love:


You will notice that a few titles may seem to be missing... IV and V I feel have strong fan bases and though they are overlooked quite often, it's rare to hear someone say something truly terrible about the game. I mean how often does the FFIV and V forums get the "THIS GAMEZ SUKS! YOU ALL LOZZORS!" type threads?

You will also notice I have not put XII in this either. This may be surprising coming from me if you have wandered into the XII forums but I feel XII is too new and is still within a "hazing" period that the fans put every FF game through when they are released. Basically I feel it is still too early to say how you really felt about it.

You will also notice that VIII is also on the list which is odd cause it has a large fanbase that love it but since this game is still a whipping boy by everyone else I feel it deserves to be there. I'm still iffy about placing IX on the poll so discuss if you wish.

There is significant dislike for FFIII DS? News to me.

I think FFXI is the clear answer here. At least for the most part people have actually played the other games before they cast their judgment on them. 90% of the complaints I've heard about FFXI in some way related to its monthly fee. I mean, fair enough if MMOs aren't your thing but understand that the fact that it operates in this way doesn't speak anything of the quality of the game itself.

*runs in waving a flag*

FFVII IS FAIL!

FFVI IS THE BEST!

I had to do that for the sake of being a biased fan!

*running out then*

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

*runs in waving a flag*

FFVII IS FAIL!

FFVI IS THE BEST!

I had to do that for the sake of being a biased fan!

*running out then*

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... ooooook...

Well, I'll go for FFVIII on this one, you know?

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Originally Posted by Karellen

There is significant dislike for FFIII DS? News to me.

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You'd be surprised.

Anyway, I voted III DS. Cause it's the truth.

"This game is hard!" "This game is too easy! They nerfed the original!" "This game is a disgrace to the original!" "This story sucks!" "Where's the story?!" "Where's Kefka?!" "Job system sucks!" "No savepoints suck!" "3D sucks!" "It should be on PSP!" "DS sucks thus III sucks as well!" "This 3D is freaking ugly!" "It should be 2D cause 3D is not close to the original!" "The difficulty is nerfed!" "Waah! I died on this boss!"

Ans so on... I left out the n00b-talk that often accompanies these posts, they are bad enough without that.

This game barely gets any respect and everything on it is critisized by at least somebody. I recently re-read an interview with the developpers, a very interesting one. Those people put a lot of effort in this game and the 3D was a concious choice. People should read up a bit before they act like idiots.

Xcomp’s Yuuenchi » “Creator’s Voice” - The Final Fantasy III Interview

I gotta say that the best one (XII) gets the most crud, its the best one for freaks sake!
But as its not on the list i'm gunna go with VIII it was good, just the junctioning shiz that damaged it

I'll go with FFI-III if that's alright. Granted, most of the reasons people don't like them are valid reasons that I largely agree with, but I think the games need to be considered in context. They were great games for their time, and largely hold up well today from a gameplay standpoint.

I also feel FFX-2 should be on there. Too many people seem hell bent on saying the whole thing sucked horribly. Granted the story wasn't the greatest and many of the sidequests had little actual point in the grand scheme of things, but the gameplay was some of the best in the series. If nothing else, I can enjoy playing that game for the battle system for hours.

Id say FFIX, because I know people who dislike it because of the deformed characters and the fact that the main character has a tail.

I would vote for VIII, but I would put it in the same boat as X, for not being on the list. X has a large fanbase but gets trashed severely.

I voted for FFII. Out of all the Final Fantasys, even more than III and V, THIS IS THE ONE that everyone disreguards as not even worth playing. With it's PSX/GBA update (i play GBA on my GC!) this is possibly my favorite of the 2d Final Fantasy's. Call me crazy, but I love the story and the gameplay is the most interesting because you can really just mess around with it. Bow before the greatness of FFII!!!

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I voted for FFII. Out of all the Final Fantasys, even more than III and V, THIS IS THE ONE that everyone disreguards as not even worth playing. With it's PSX/GBA update (i play GBA on my GC!) this is possibly my favorite of the 2d Final Fantasy's. Call me crazy, but I love the story and the gameplay is the most interesting because you can really just mess around with it. Bow before the greatness of FFII!!!

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I liked II. Not as much as I liked FF I (I played DoS) but I liked it. Pandaemonium was awesome. And Soul of Rebirth was an interesting experience (although I found the ending a bit vague).

It's just that the gameplay, while a good idea, didn't really work out like SE intended, I think. It's a bit like VIII's junctionning, you can abuse the system to power yourself up incredibly right from the beginning.

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Originally Posted by Karellen

I think FFXI is the clear answer here. At least for the most part people have actually played the other games before they cast their judgment on them. 90% of the complaints I've heard about FFXI in some way related to its monthly fee. I mean, fair enough if MMOs aren't your thing but understand that the fact that it operates in this way doesn't speak anything of the quality of the game itself.

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Exactly. People dislike the game without even playing it. They don't even think about FFXI. This is why it's not being voted in this thread. The majority of people just ignore it.

Second place is FFVII. It have a large fanbase, but it's bashed all the time ONLY because it is(was) popular.

I think Final Fantasy IX and Final Fantasy XI get more crap for no legitimate reason than any other titles. That's not say there aren't good reasons to dislike the games, but they just seem to get a lot more shallow complaints than other titles. Usually when I hear someone complain about other titles in the series, they can present a good reason for such an opinion.

Vivisteiner presented the reasons I might agree that FFIX deserves the most unreasonably disliked FF title, but having played FFXI, I truly believe that game gets more crap than any other simply because it's an online game.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of reasons for anyone to detest Final Fantasy XI. Most of these reasons, however, are only discovered after playing the game for some time. Still, I hear more people bitch and moan about FFXI simply because it's an online game. The complaints have been going around since the game was announced as an MMORPG. I don't consider it unreasonable to not wish to play FFXI because it's online (online games aren't for everyone, after all), but there's no reason to go on about it being such a bad game just because of that.

As for the other titles, there are legitimate reasons for people to dislike the games. Final Fantasy I isn't exactly what someone who was introduced to RPGs with FFVII might expect, and that would naturally put them off of it. FFII's battle system is also good reason to shy away from that game. I never heard that FFIII DS got a lot of crap, but I never paid much attention to what people were saying about that anyway. Many people, myself included, dislike FFVIII because we're unsatisfied with the plot for many reasons (most of which are irrelevant to this thread anyway). FFTA was a disappointment to many because it's not what we expected for a semi-sequel to Tactics. As far as Crystal Chronicles goes, I've not enough experience with the game (read: never played it) to know if there's real justification.

I don't see many people blindly hating any of these games because of superficial details like I do with FFIX and FFXI, so I can't say they're the most unreasonably disliked FF titles. I might say that FFVIII gets more crap than any other game, but I wouldn't say that's entirely unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Elpizo

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I voted for FFII. Out of all the Final Fantasys, even more than III and V, THIS IS THE ONE that everyone disreguards as not even worth playing. With it's PSX/GBA update (i play GBA on my GC!) this is possibly my favorite of the 2d Final Fantasy's. Call me crazy, but I love the story and the gameplay is the most interesting because you can really just mess around with it. Bow before the greatness of FFII!!!

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I liked II. Not as much as I liked FF I (I played DoS) but I liked it. Pandaemonium was awesome. And Soul of Rebirth was an interesting experience (although I found the ending a bit vague).

It's just that the gameplay, while a good idea, didn't really work out like SE intended, I think. It's a bit like VIII's junctionning, you can abuse the system to power yourself up incredibly right from the beginning.

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indeed, these two games have alot in common with gameplay, they're without question the 2 most open ended systems in the series. I think that's one of the many possible reasons why VIII's protagonist was named Leonheart.

FFX has a large fanbase?

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Originally Posted by Rengori

FFX has a large fanbase?

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Not as large as VII's (think more like VIs size) but just as rabid as both of them...;)

I had know idea that VI and X had the same amount of fans. THIS MEANS WAR

Why just "iffy" on FFIX? It's my impression that the game is pretty well disliked. It's my friend's fav FF, and her impression is also that it's one of the top hated. And if it is, that hate is most definitely unreasonable.

The number one complaint I see is that it's "not serious." Nobody could possibly come to that conclusion unless they decided that based solely on the graphics and didn't happen to notice the story at all. Then there's complaints about the graphics being cartoony. They must not understand that it's a video game. Besides, the graphics are a hell of a lot more realistic than the blockpeople of FFVII. And how could anyone not like Kuja? He's the only FF villain who can even try to compete with Kefka for awesome lines.

I think it's the 3rd best of the series, it definitely deserves more love than it gets.

FFIX gets lots of love, almost no one hates it. Just not enough people have played it to see how purely awesome it is.

IX gets more love that most of the FF's, and I thought it was hated...
It in no way is undervalued or not appreciated.

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Originally Posted by elipzo

"no save points suck!"

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If the game doesn't have save points then tha'ts a pure reason that it should suck. I wouldn't even think FFIIIDS would be up there since it's been out only for a year and most people couldn't compare it with the original because it was never released in America or Europe. I will say VIII out of those it's a good game.

the only complaints, for the most part, that I've heard about IX are the kiddy-looking character models. Anyone who's played it knows that it is in fact a very serious game with many deep and mature messages.

If it's the only FF someone's played, I don't think they would notice many, if any, serious drawbacks in it. But I could see where some serious FF veterans have complaints about it, for example, how it basically took the "A" out of ATB

You know, I felt IX was well hated too until I joined this forum. Even looking through a few other forums I must say the general consensus is that IX was a good game. The only thing that truly varies is how much you like it. I've met more people who are indifferent to IX than I have of people who generally hate it.

As for the lack of save points in III. It wasn't much of a big deal until you get to the Crystal Tower cause the whole final dungeon scenario is LOOOONG... add in the fact that you have six major boss fights and suddenly the idea of being killed in the final battle (Did I mention the Cloud of Darkness is a cheating wench?) becomes really annoying. Even then I still don't consider it a bad point cause I was able to get through most of the game with little problem.

In hindsight... I should have added X-2.

FFX-2 deserves to be on there! It's a good game and not a lot of people like it...don't know why.

Well to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of X-2 so I guess that may have something to do with my "forgetfulness" :shifty:

It just depends on what you like in a Final Fantasy :p

People have their tastes and opinions n.n

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Originally Posted by Ashley Schovitz

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Originally Posted by elipzo

"no save points suck!"

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If the game doesn't have save points then tha'ts a pure reason that it should suck. I wouldn't even think FFIIIDS would be up there since it's been out only for a year and most people couldn't compare it with the original because it was never released in America or Europe.

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If you suddenly need to stop playing, players can use quicksave, as simple as that. And while the Crystal Tower and World of Darkness seem overwhelming without savepoints, I made it through (with ease) on my first try, proving that it's possible all together. It's just that gamers can't take a challenge anymore. FF XII had no savepoints for the Final Dungeon either (okay, it's very short...) and that's also 4 bosses after each other. I find challenge not a reason that a game so-called sucks.

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Originally Posted by Ouch!

I think Final Fantasy IX and Final Fantasy XI get more crap for no legitimate reason than any other titles. That's not say there aren't good reasons to dislike the games, but they just seem to get a lot more shallow complaints than other titles. Usually when I hear someone complain about other titles in the series, they can present a good reason for such an opinion.

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Oh, I'd definitely agree with you about FFIX. I think it's easily one of the most underrated games in the series which is a pity because it's a genuinely fantastic game. I think that FFVIII gets a bit more stick that it deserves sometimes, but then again there's also a lot of FFVIII fanboyism too, so perhaps not. It's generally considered one of the worst games in the series, but it still feels more popular a game than IX was.

My vote in the poll actually goes for FFTA. I thought it was a really fun game to play. While I often find battles tedious in the main series, I quite enjoyed them in FFTA. It was nice to have the added elements of distance, movement and area of effect to take into account when planning an attack. Hardly perfect, but the use of the class system as well as a reasonable fun main storyline makes it a good game but, sadly, one that people don't see the qualities of sometimes.

I didn't interpret the question to be which game is the most disliked, but rather the most unreasonably disliked. I see a lot of people voting for FFVIII, but usually when I hear someone take a shot at the game, he can form a good argument as to why he dislikes it. If people can justify their opinions with a good argument, I won't consider it unreasonably disliked. I feel complaints about the plot, game mechanics, and similar things are good reasons to dislike a game. Writing a game off because of the art style does not justify such a belief to me, especially if one doesn't play the game to find anything beyond that.

For said reasons, I'm gonna go ahead and keep FFIX above FFVIII even if there are fewer people who truly dislike it. I've yet to see more than a handful of people arguing against it beyond petty complaints about the characters looking like six-year-old heads stuck on adult bodies or Zidane having a monkey tail.

VIII is the greatest game, and yet people feel the need to slate it.

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Originally Posted by Rocket Edge

VIII is the greatest game, and yet people feel the need to slate it.

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i think it's the most misunderstood game in the series. I didn't get it either until a year ago, now it's possibly my favorite FF.

How could anyone not understand it? FF8 was so simple and straight forward, I found it difficult to misinterpret things differently.

FFX-2 and FFVII, although neither of them are on the poll so whatever.

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

How could anyone not understand it? FF8 was so simple and straight forward, I found it difficult to misinterpret things differently.

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I didn't mean misunderstand as in not being able to comprehend it, I meant it more as it people look at it a certain way, and fail to appreciate how great it really is.

For example, i hear frequently how the plot is full of holes and is in some parts unbelievable, and how the battle system is broken.

I used to be the exact same way. However I've come to realize that VIII's plot is alot more intense than maybe any other FF's that the few flaws in it are easily forgiveable. Also, the battle system isn't broken - sure you can spend a considerable amount of time drawing and make your characters uber strong but in any FF you could spend hours leveling and do the exact same thing. It's about deciding just how much is enough and getting through the plot without as many distractions.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I used to be the exact same way. However I've come to realize that VIII's plot is alot more intense than maybe any other FF's that the few flaws in it are easily forgiveable. Also, the battle system isn't broken - sure you can spend a considerable amount of time drawing and make your characters uber strong but in any FF you could spend hours leveling and do the exact same thing. It's about deciding just how much is enough and getting through the plot without as many distractions.

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I'll grant you the plot stuff because despite the lack of a consistent villian and the gaping plot holes I still manage to enjoy the story, but even with little knowledge of where the best draw points are and how to exploit them, a person could easily junction there characters with enough high level spells to unbalance the game without ever spending the kind of time it took to overlevel in other games. Granted if someone wants more of a challenge they can delierately hold back, but even I can't be bothered as the main reason myself and most people will play through multiple times is to do sidequests they missed the first time and to enjoy the story again. The majority of people will never bother since it's incredibly difficult to walk the line between a reasonable difficulty, and uber hard super fan challenge.

The system isn't broken because you can create overpowered characters, it's broken because it can be done in little time, and pretty much by accident simply by using the system the way it was designed to be used.

People assume it's broken because they do not use it to full standard. Sometimes.

I would have voted for FFX-2. While certainly many complaints about the shortcomings of the plot and characters are valid, too many people seem to think the game have no redeeming qualities. I would contest at least that the variable job system and New Game+ aspects are actually quite innovative and (unfortunately) rarely used in the main FF titles.

I'll contend that very few see the beauty in VIII. Granted I agree that VIII is one of the most flawed games in the series but it doesn't mean I don't still love it. :love:

Yes it has plot holes, story elements that don't go anyhwere, bad execution and the gameplay mechanics are broken (see Vivi22's post about the Junction system to understand my feelings.) and overall, the game easily has the greatest potential to be truly incredible. It falls short but I feel it gave players the most incredibly different experience in the series. For that alone I love this game.

IX also gets alot of hate for no real reason as well as Tactics Advance since both get nailed for being "too kiddy" when in reality if you really played through each of them you know that is far from the truth. Certainly I have some gripes about TA's game mechanics but even then it's still fun if a little frustrating at times... (still only two missions away from getting Cid...)

I'll never understand the III DS hate cause most complaints I've heard are completely stupid. It either shows you're an elitist snob or a noob who got into RPGs a year ago and have no understanding (and no appreciation) about the genre's history. FFI falls into this category as well.

I personally feel FFII is a wonderful game with a good story and though it's battle system is broken; at least it was nice to see Square strive for innovation. I like the battle system and would't mind seeing a retooled version in future titles; as well as a retooled and balanced Junction system.

I know I really should have put X-2 on here (just vote for Mystic Quest instead since it's gotten the least amount of love;) ). I do personally hate the game but it looks like I may have to play through it again so perhaps a second playthrough will make me appreciate it more. I also have to play through X again and I am seriously dreading that... only game I honestly decided I disliked after my second playthrough...

I know some feel VI, VII, and X should be on this cause the games do get dissed for really stupid reasons (hey they are popular) but these games also recieve more love than the others so I don't see the point. This is a thread about the underdogs of the series!

I know i already give my opinion but... I want to say that i cannot understand how FFXI is not winning the poll. The majority of the FF community simply ignores it. Some people don't even consider it part of the main series. And most of them didn't even play the game.

Being ignored is worst than being hated IMO.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

I know i already give my opinion but... I want to say that i cannot understand how FFXI is not winning the poll. The majority of the FF community simply ignores it. Some people don't even consider it part of the main series. And most of them didn't even play the game.

Being ignored is worst than being hated IMO.

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Agrees "To be forgotten is worse then death"

As much as I think FFXI has received a bad reputation for no reason, I think it's fair enough if people don't play an MMO if they're not into that sort of thing. It's just sort of silly to criticize a game you haven't played simply because it's part of a genre you don't like.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I used to be the exact same way. However I've come to realize that VIII's plot is alot more intense than maybe any other FF's that the few flaws in it are easily forgiveable. Also, the battle system isn't broken - sure you can spend a considerable amount of time drawing and make your characters uber strong but in any FF you could spend hours leveling and do the exact same thing. It's about deciding just how much is enough and getting through the plot without as many distractions.

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I'll grant you the plot stuff because despite the lack of a consistent villian and the gaping plot holes I still manage to enjoy the story, but even with little knowledge of where the best draw points are and how to exploit them, a person could easily junction there characters with enough high level spells to unbalance the game without ever spending the kind of time it took to overlevel in other games. Granted if someone wants more of a challenge they can delierately hold back, but even I can't be bothered as the main reason myself and most people will play through multiple times is to do sidequests they missed the first time and to enjoy the story again. The majority of people will never bother since it's incredibly difficult to walk the line between a reasonable difficulty, and uber hard super fan challenge.

The system isn't broken because you can create overpowered characters, it's broken because it can be done in little time, and pretty much by accident simply by using the system the way it was designed to be used.

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i'm not really sure about all that. I would have ask what part of the game you're talking about. Because higher level spells that boost stats up rediculously don't come in during the first few scenarios, and to really make a difference you'd have to draw alot of the low level spells. I'm not sure how much time you're saying that it is, but I know if you spend that time grinding in previous titles, even if it's just a few levels, the enemies become considerably easier.

I don't really go junction crazy until the end of the 3rd disk (because it isn't necessary), and even then Ultimecia's castle wasn't a cakewalk. granted it wasn't as difficult as some of the other FF final dungeons but i wasn't obliterating every enemy who came in my way either.

You can get high-level magic pretty early in FFVIII. The boss Granaldo that attacks Elone in the training center on disk one drops 8 wizard stones (the Raldo around it drop another 8), which can be refined into 5 firagas/thundagas/blizzagas a piece with their respective refineries. Tents can be refined into 10 Curaga's a piece as soon as you learn Siren's Life magic refinery. It is extremely easy to become uber powerful very early on with almost no effort.

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Originally Posted by Karellen

You can get high-level magic pretty early in FFVIII. The boss Granaldo that attacks Elone in the training center on disk one drops 8 wizard stones (which can be found as drop items from Bite Bugs), which can be refined into 5 firagas/thundagas/blizzagas a piece with their respective refineries. Tents can be refined into 10 Curaga's a piece as soon as you learn Siren's Life magic refinery. It is extremely easy to become uber powerful very early on with almost no effort.

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wizard stones are a high level drop for bite bugs.

those 8 you get can absolutely make a difference if you stock 40 high level spells on one stat on one character but i don't believe that constitutes breaking the game.

also you're absolutely right about the curagas, they can have dramatic effects on life/spirit, but you're forgetting how costly they are in the beginning of the game. Even if you go through the SeeD exams with a cheat sheet that alone still takes a little bit of time, not to mention intervals between receiving your salary. Which is my point, you're still spending some time to do that.

You're also forgetting that it takes time to get those refinery abilities, there's about 30 AP each, but that means you're foregoing more status-j's, and being that each GF starts with 2-3 you're not really making much use of your stock anyway. Granted you can fight the fish at the shoreline for like 6 ap in the beginning of the game but you're still spending time regardless doing that.

Which is my point - if you could give me an approximate minute count i think you'd see what i'm saying. I recently spent not even a half hour level grinding before the floating island in FFVI and that section, which is the most challenging part up to that point, was a breeze.

See edit with the bite bugs. I knew I had more wizard stones then that earlier on, I just wasn't sure why.

Tents are expensive, but are pretty much the only things you'll ever need to buy in shops anyway (beyond weapon upgrades, which are all fairly cheap). It's very easy to gain a large supply of them by consistently buying them throughout disk 1.

Large amounts of high level magic junctioned to strength really does make a significant difference in FFVIII. It basically allows Squall to kill bosses with 2-3 renzokukens for quite a way into the game. Similarly, high HP means that what attacks the enemies do get in won't cause significant damage. For the most part, strength and HP junction are all you'll ever need until quite a way into the later disks, beyond an average magic stat for healing. I don't think I've ever used Status-J's once in any playthrough, beyond when fighting the T-Rex. Status defense only ever came into play during the Omega battle.

30 AP is really not a big deal. You gain 20 AP alone from the first battle with Ifrit. By the time you get wizard stones there is pretty much no excuse for not having already learned it (refineries virtually being the most important abilities beyond HP-J and Strength-J). Similarly, You can gain 20 AP as soon as you have Siren to help towards her Life Refinery by fighting Diablos as soon as you get him.

None of these things take anywhere near the sort of time it would to level up to an equivalent stat of god-hood in other FF games. For the most part, these things can be gained just by following the story.

Karellen seems to have covered my argument for me. It takes no time to learn the necessary magic refinement abilities and little time/money stocking items and low level magic to be refined into higher level magic, and as said before, HP and strength junctions are all you need. The first makes you unkillable, the second kills everything in your way. And since high strength is better than casting a spell every time, you'll never have a reason to run down the magic stock.

All of this is easy to do, and can be done early on in little time, or by simply going through the story normally. Either way, you'll be more than powerful enough to carry you through to the end of the game by the end of the first disc, and that's without ever going near the draw points on the islands closest to Heaven and Hell. And that was really my point to begin with. You don't have to take the time to grind to become far too powerful much too early in the game. But I think we may be getting a bit off the original topic now.

It's sort of still on topic in that a lot of people here are seemingly under the impression that FFVIII is unreasonably disliked. The above explanation demonstrates that there is indeed a genuine problem.

That being said, I'm quite fond of FFVIII and thoroughly disagree with those that consider it to be a particularly bad game.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Karellen

You can get high-level magic pretty early in FFVIII. The boss Granaldo that attacks Elone in the training center on disk one drops 8 wizard stones (which can be found as drop items from Bite Bugs), which can be refined into 5 firagas/thundagas/blizzagas a piece with their respective refineries. Tents can be refined into 10 Curaga's a piece as soon as you learn Siren's Life magic refinery. It is extremely easy to become uber powerful very early on with almost no effort.

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wizard stones are a high level drop for bite bugs.

those 8 you get can absolutely make a difference if you stock 40 high level spells on one stat on one character but i don't believe that constitutes breaking the game.

also you're absolutely right about the curagas, they can have dramatic effects on life/spirit, but you're forgetting how costly they are in the beginning of the game. Even if you go through the SeeD exams with a cheat sheet that alone still takes a little bit of time, not to mention intervals between receiving your salary. Which is my point, you're still spending some time to do that.

You're also forgetting that it takes time to get those refinery abilities, there's about 30 AP each, but that means you're foregoing more status-j's, and being that each GF starts with 2-3 you're not really making much use of your stock anyway. Granted you can fight the fish at the shoreline for like 6 ap in the beginning of the game but you're still spending time regardless doing that.

Which is my point - if you could give me an approximate minute count i think you'd see what i'm saying. I recently spent not even a half hour level grinding before the floating island in FFVI and that section, which is the most challenging part up to that point, was a breeze.

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Curaga? Costly? No way, I got them from buying a few tents. I never had to train in FFVIII until I felt like going to level 100 (which was uber easy thanks to my uber junctions). The entire game is abusable in 10 minutes I figured out how to get Curagas, Quakes, etc, right after getting Siren, so I could've played a lot of the rest of the game without needing to stop to train for a while.

The game's so damn annoying when you actually don't indeed to defeat an enemy so quick. A few hours I attempted to draw Eden from Ultima Weapon, he lessened my HP with Graviga and I instinctively used Squall's limit break, accidentally opening way for his finale Lion Heart move. I killed the thing so easily, I felt like crying, I know I can get it later but meh...

Anyway, I think FF8 can be disliked because of it's easy capability of mastering the broken junction system, but it takes time to accumulate all the items needed and so on. The game can really be conquered over the matter of hard work and resilience, because if you want an easy ride without drawing magic or refining items, then your in for a rough one!

That's what I think anyway.

I'd say Tactics Advance is the most reasonably disliked. I wanted FF Tactics, not flower-picking and snowball fights! And the judge system was plain retarded: Puts you up against Flans and says "No Magic". What are we supposed to use man, harsh language?

It could be said that FFII is unreasonably disliked for one simple reason: People only slag it off for its difficulty. If just one person would say what I do (boring level grinding for hours on end just to tackle the next dungeon) then I'd feel differently about the matter, as FFII certainly lacked a certain sparkle anyway, mainly the fact that you'd keep forgetting what the plot was because you spent so much time level grinding.

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Originally Posted by ReloadPsi

I'd say Tactics Advance is the most reasonably disliked. The judge system was plain retarded: Puts you up against Flans and says "No Magic". What are we supposed to use man, harsh language?

---

True, true, I had to reset the game many times before I entered battle, I didn't understand the counter card rule ever, which that Ezel guy gives to you for a fee.

Haven't played II so I can't comment on it, but after the second chapter X-2 really isn't as bad as everyone says. It's not as good as a lot of the other FFs, but I don't think it's so bad that it can't be counted in the main series. Though it does ruin the poignancy of X, and Rikku sometimes makes me want to tear my ears off :-/

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Originally Posted by Hazzard

The game's so damn annoying when you actually don't indeed to defeat an enemy so quick. A few hours I attempted to draw Eden from Ultima Weapon, he lessened my HP with Graviga and I instinctively used Squall's limit break, accidentally opening way for his finale Lion Heart move. I killed the thing so easily, I felt like crying, I know I can get it later but meh...

---

I don't like that fight with Ultima Weapon. Actually, I don't even like getting to the place where you battle it. I just got Bahamut and drew Eden from Tiamat the last couple times I played and spent a while at Cactuar Island :p

The thing about X-2 is that it's so...corny and cheesy. I think it was just to fill a gap for the perfect ending for X fans, and I'm a major one, but it came up short and disappointed me. I'll never adjust to anything in that game, I actually got to the final dungeon but was too under leveled for the first time. Ever. I couldn't be bothered to even grind for a few hours, cause the game means naught to me really.

I understand why people wouldn't like II, it is the most broken FF game till this day. The battle system can either be ridiculously difficult or simply easy to overcome, just through beating yourself up with a shield, or weapons; gaining HP, strength, stamina and various attributes from doing so. Great storyline though, and the rebel music is a firm favorite for me as "one of the best FF tunes" so yah, that's it really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ReloadPsi

I'd say Tactics Advance is the most reasonably disliked. I wanted FF Tactics, not flower-picking and snowball fights! And the judge system was plain retarded: Puts you up against Flans and says "No Magic". What are we supposed to use man, harsh language?

---

You see, it's this comment alone that meakes me feel it deserves to be here. So it's not Tactics 2... Big deal! It doesn't change the fact it had a well developed and controversial plot and expanded on so many things that Tactics had done before it. You're a kid who's trying to end the world so he can save his friends from their own self delusions and escapism... I don't know about you but that's pretty damn deep considering it's marketed towards a younger audiance.

I have issues with the game mechanics (let's fix the broken job classes by making every class broken! or borrowing IX's system of learning abilities through items still irk me...:rolleyes2 ) but it doesn't make the game unplayable. It's actually pretty damn fun even if it doesn't offer the same level of customization as Tactics did. The Judge system is well implemented, in fact to more suave gamers it's almost a non-issue. A luxury way to make the battles more challenging without seriously trying.

Tactics was a fine game and is my personal favorite in the series but I don't begrudge Tactics Advance just because it wasn't the sequel I wanted. I accept the game for what it is and that's how I am able to enjoy it.;)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

So it's not Tactics 2.

---

It's not like I was after a Tactics 2. It's more like I was after a game that didn't make me feel sick to my stomach with its overwhelming cuteness and still take itself seriously with said cuteness (at least FFX-2 was clearly meant to be having a laugh). Keep in mind I live in the UK where so, so many of us didn't get to play the original Tactics, so for someone who only played the original very briefly and enjoyed it, this Disney-esque disaster was a gargantuan disappointment for me. Remember when we were waiting for F-Zero X to be released on the Nintendo 64 and in the meantime a developer named ASCII released a similar, much more awful game named Aero Gauge? That's how this felt, only ten times bigger because this wasn't intended as a placeholder for the real thing, this was the real thing, and it was all we were getting. Thank god I only played the ROM.

Just today, someone told me one of the random rules that Judges will impose is "No damage is allowed to be inflicted on enemies". Come the smurf on! What were Square THINKING?! Imagine if in Super Mario Bros., a judge appeared and said "No jumping". That's what that's like.

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Originally Posted by ReloadPsi

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

So it's not Tactics 2.

---

It's not like I was after a Tactics 2. It's more like I was after a game that didn't make me feel sick to my stomach with its overwhelming cuteness and still take itself seriously with said cuteness (at least FFX-2 was clearly meant to be having a laugh). Keep in mind I live in the UK where so, so many of us didn't get to play the original Tactics, so for someone who only played the original very briefly and enjoyed it, this Disney-esque disaster was a gargantuan disappointment for me. Remember when we were waiting for F-Zero X to be released on the Nintendo 64 and in the meantime a developer named ASCII released a similar, much more awful game named Aero Gauge? That's how this felt, only ten times bigger because this wasn't intended as a placeholder for the real thing, this was the real thing, and it was all we were getting. Thank god I only played the ROM.

Just today, someone told me one of the random rules that Judges will impose is "No damage is allowed to be inflicted on enemies". Come the smurf on! What were Square THINKING?! Imagine if in Super Mario Bros., a judge appeared and said "No jumping". That's what that's like.

---

Now I can sympathize with your expectations being betrayed (Do you have any idea what it was like to finish FFIV in the States and while being promised FFV, which never got released for the SNES over here, we got Mystic Quest instead? ;) ).

Now I am going to try my best to be as civil and non-insulting about this as I can...

Psi... before attacking a game, make sure you've really played through the entire game. The story is actually quiite dark especailly cause the cast is mostly children. The theme being "escapism". We are talking about a game where a boy is trying to save his friends and his own world (by destroying this fictional world) from the fact his other three friends want to live in a fantasy world cause they can't deal with the real world anymore. How is that "cute and childish"?

The scenes where Marche confronts Doned who is no longer sick and can walk or when he meets up with Mewt whose mother is alive in this world and his father is no longer an alcoholic bum but a well respected judge are just emotionally strong and well written scenes. The premise seems cute but the execution is pure Matsuno who places the player in a morally ambiguous situation. I have a friend who stopped playing only because he was against what Marche was trying to do. Later you get to watch Mewt slowly lose his mind to his self induced illusions he has created for himself. A mere child becoming a puppet to the fictional world he created...

As for the Judges, the game gives you several easy ways to get around them so they are not much of an issue. You can find out what the laws are by checking the map, you get law cards that allow you to really screw with them and later you can acquire a Judge that allows you to break the laws without fear of consequence.

There is also no law in the game Called "No damage" so your friend is either mistaken or confusing it with the race specific rules (No damage to Bangaa or monster ect.) or the "No Fight" rule which prohibits the use of physical attacks (but not skills or magic;) ). The laws are hardly ever a handicap half of the time and only change your strategies (it is an SRPG anyway) so I feel they are overall a good system in the game.

I don't really care if you hate Tactics Advance out of personal taste (I don't care for X and X-2 myself) but to say it deserves to be attacked for ill-informed reasons or hastily made assumptions is something I can't stand for. I'm terribly sorry if I offended you but I can't let you bash a game for silly reasons in a thread about games that get bashed for silly reasons;)

I think I get what you're saying, but what I'm hard-pressed to understand is why a person should have to play through an entire game that they don't like purely to have the divine right to say they don't like it? I did the same thing with FFX: I played it up until about when I had to help Rikku salvage the airship, decided I didn't like it then sometime later played through the entire game to shut my friends up about how I "wasn't giving it a chance" and my opinion stayed the same anyway... plus they were now even more annoyed with me because I'd given the game all the chance in the world and still wasn't swayed. With FFTA, I played up to the point where my clan (FearySpies) had completed their first mission: Pick some flowers, but kill the goblins blocking the way first. By then I was very switched off. The fact that I found nothing to like about the game is a perfectly good reason to dislike it, and not silly at all, and "You didn't play the entire game" is far and away the single worst defense of all time. Well, never mind.

Ultimately then, "unreasonably disliked" basically means "Disliked by a person who was so repulsed by the game that they didn't play it to death like they would a game they genuinely enjoyed". :skull::skull::skull::skull:, will that fit in the title of the thread?

Alright...

Now that I have time to cool down a little and reflect on all this I relaized I was being quite childish... I'm sorry Psi.

It was not my intention to devolve this into a stupid fanboy argument and I do feel I may have gone out of line a few times and for that I am sorry. I've removed my last statement and having it replaced with this apology. So sorry about letting this get out of hand. But it just seemed like we were arguing over the very same kind of things that inspired me to make this thread.

Once again I am sorry to you and anyone else I may have offended.

I'd have to say it's FFVIII that's being detested the most by some people for no reason what-so-ever.
FFVIII is a great game, Loved by many with a huge Fan Base.
But there's still some low-life that comes in and complains about the game for really silly and stupid reasons.
"Oh, the junction system is too hard and confusing"
or even...
"This game is bad. Why? Because. Because what?"
That's really a poor excuse for a reason for complaining.
Go get yourself a brain.

I'm thinking FFVII, some people seems to dislike it because of its popularity. I can partly understand that, since it's pretty annoying when something is constantly shoved up in your face. The natural reaction to something like that is to distance yourself from it. Same thing with certain celebrities you see everywhere, popular movies, popular music. Aeris would be a good example too. Some people always goes on and on about how much they hate her and that they laughed when she died etc. Probably because you get shoved up in yer face that this is supposed to be a very sad moment.

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Originally Posted by Hyperion4444

I'd have to say it's FFVIII that's being detested the most by some people for no reason what-so-ever.
FFVIII is a great game, Loved by many with a huge Fan Base.
But there's still some low-life that comes in and complains about the game for really silly and stupid reasons.
"Oh, the junction system is too hard and confusing"
or even...
"This game is bad. Why? Because. Because what?"
That's really a poor excuse for a reason for complaining.
Go get yourself a brain.

---

Most of us who dislike FFVIII already have a brain and have valid arguments for disliking it. Arguments we already covered on page 3 and part of page 4 of this thread.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyperion4444

I'd have to say it's FFVIII that's being detested the most by some people for no reason what-so-ever.
FFVIII is a great game, Loved by many with a huge Fan Base.
But there's still some low-life that comes in and complains about the game for really silly and stupid reasons.
"Oh, the junction system is too hard and confusing"
or even...
"This game is bad. Why? Because. Because what?"
That's really a poor excuse for a reason for complaining.
Go get yourself a brain.

---

Uh, no. Many people who hate FFVIII have reasons, like I do. Most of mine stem toward Ultimecia, lack of character development in people not named Squall or Rinoa, and a forced, overrated, crap, love story.

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Originally Posted by Levian

I'm thinking FFVII, some people seems to dislike it because of its popularity. I can partly understand that, since it's pretty annoying when something is constantly shoved up in your face. The natural reaction to something like that is to distance yourself from it.

---

Personally I think that's quite a good reason to hate something, especially when you were never particularly interested in the first place: Just mention football in front of me and I either switch off or yell at you. As for FF7, I played it when I was at a friend's house, he'd had to go out of the room for a while and I had nothing better to do (originally I was a bit tired of hearing about it myself). Damn his extervention (is that even a word?) getting me hooked!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goldenboko

Uh, no. Many people who hate FFVIII have reasons, like I do. Most of mine stem toward Ultimecia, lack of character development in people not named Squall or Rinoa, and a forced, overrated, crap, love story.

---

And it has probably the second worst plot twist ever (begins with "o" and ends in "rphanage"); first place was snatched away by the "4D-space" phenomenon in Star Ocean 3, though again I actually liked FF8:

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Originally Posted by Me, some time ago

It's a piece of :skull::skull::skull::skull:, but I like it.

---

Final fantasy VIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IGN: FF8 Breaks Sales Records


What were you saying about it not being good?

It's the best love story ever, may not be enjoyable to anyone heartless.

It's only envy from people like you who can't accept there was a better Final Fantasy out there. And FFVII was still good.
But, like you people said, this is the reason why FFVIII gets the point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyperion4444

Final fantasy VIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IGN: FF8 Breaks Sales Records


What were you saying about it not being good?

It's the best love story ever, may not be enjoyable to anyone heartless.

It's only envy from people like you who can't accept there was a better Final Fantasy out there. And FFVII was still good.
But, like you people said, this is the reason why FFVIII gets the point.

---

I actually like FFVIII, but even I'm not ignorant to it's problems. I'm not going to rehash the discussion on how broken the junction system is since we covered that earlier in the thread. But I will say that it does not have the best love story ever. The most non-sensical one perhaps. Squall spent most of the game not caring about anyone including Rinoa. Then out of nowhere he apparently loves her. His character and attitude changed drastically for no real reason whatsoever. You want a good FF love story then play FFX. At least Tidus and Yuna's relationship developed naturally into love over the course of the game. It never felt forced to me like in FFVIII. Or even look at FFVI and the relationship between Locke and Celes for another good example. Toss in the plot twists that make no logical sense as ReloadPsi mentioned and you've got a story that's better suited to an RPG made ten years prior FFVIII's release when these absurdities would have been more acceptable. It certainly wasn't a huge step forward for the series. It may have started strong, but the writers dropped the ball by the end.

:eep:

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyperion4444

Final fantasy VIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IGN: FF8 Breaks Sales Records


What were you saying about it not being good?

It's the best love story ever, may not be enjoyable to anyone heartless.

It's only envy from people like you who can't accept there was a better Final Fantasy out there. And FFVII was still good.
But, like you people said, this is the reason why FFVIII gets the point.

---

I actually like FFVIII, but even I'm not ignorant to it's problems. I'm not going to rehash the discussion on how broken the junction system is since we covered that earlier in the thread. But I will say that it does not have the best love story ever. The most non-sensical one perhaps. Squall spent most of the game not caring about anyone including Rinoa. Then out of nowhere he apparently loves her. His character and attitude changed drastically for no real reason whatsoever. You want a good FF love story then play FFX. At least Tidus and Yuna's relationship developed naturally into love over the course of the game. It never felt forced to me like in FFVIII. Or even look at FFVI and the relationship between Locke and Celes for another good example. Toss in the plot twists that make no logical sense as ReloadPsi mentioned and you've got a story that's better suited to an RPG made ten years prior FFVIII's release when these absurdities would have been more acceptable. It certainly wasn't a huge step forward for the series. It may have started strong, but the writers dropped the ball by the end.

---

I can understand someone disliking FFVIII for the game mechanics. We discussed it earlier in this thread and I think you definately proved your point.

But I have to honestly say, that when peopel criticize the storylines in newer FF games it relies purely on nitpicking which then gets exaggerated.

I don't want to sound undermining, but I think some of you need to grow up and experience the real world before you call the love story "non-sensical". In real life there's plenty of examples everywhere you turn with people giving their emotions to someone who doesn't care about them. I've seen plenty of times when girls or even guys fall for the person who treats them badly, in the worst cases with significant others who are flat out cruel to them. This happens all the time. I felt VIII's love story was a little more complicated than your traditional, stereotypical, cliches video game love story and it added a level of reality to it.

You could look at the first 6 installments and say that they barely have character development at all, villains who are almost completely irrelevant to the plot, and hardly any plot to begin with.

OR you could play these games for what they are and enjoy them, like my man WK said earlier in this thread. I swear internet forums are dominated, or at least infested, by a group of gamers who went through the newer FFs restlessly searching for reasons to hate them. All of the games in the series are great, especially for their respective times, so please, as gamers, as a community, we need to stop the hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

But I have to honestly say, that when peopel criticize the storylines in newer FF games it relies purely on nitpicking which then gets exaggerated.

I don't want to sound undermining, but I think some of you need to grow up and experience the real world before you call the love story "non-sensical". In real life there's plenty of examples everywhere you turn with people giving their emotions to someone who doesn't care about them. I've seen plenty of times when girls or even guys fall for the person who treats them badly, in the worst cases with significant others who are flat out cruel to them. This happens all the time. I felt VIII's love story was a little more complicated than your traditional, stereotypical, cliches video game love story and it added a level of reality to it.

---

I didn't say it made no sense for Rinoa to care about Squall. People can be attracted to others for the strangest of reasons (lord knows I've seen far more messed up crap with some of my friends than that), so her liking someone who was rude, indifferent, and never showed any feelings towards her is something I'm more than willing to accept. Squall's sudden shift in character though is something else. It's not like he accepted her affection because it was convenient and continued treating her the way he did. He had a massive shift in his attitude and behaviour towards her for no other reason than the writers decided they should be together. It didn't fit his character, and it never sat well with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

You could look at the first 6 installments and say that they barely have character development at all, villains who are almost completely irrelevant to the plot, and hardly any plot to begin with.

---

No character development? Have you even played FFVI. There isn't may not be as much dialogue there as in future titles do to hardware limitations, but the character growth that's there is something that even most modern RPG's don't match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

OR you could play these games for what they are and enjoy them, like my man WK said earlier in this thread. I swear internet forums are dominated, or at least infested, by a group of gamers who went through the newer FFs restlessly searching for reasons to hate them. All of the games in the series are great, especially for their respective times, so please, as gamers, as a community, we need to stop the hate.

---

At what point did I say I hate FFVIII, or any of the newer FF's for that matter (FFIX happens to be my second favourite in the series, and I feel FFX has some of the best gameplay and character development of any RPG I've ever played as well)? You see people pick apart the things they don't like about a game and assume that means they hate it. On the contrary; I love FFVIII. I just hate people who try to gloss over it's flaws and claim it's flawless. The same goes for any game for that matter. Even with FFVI, which is my favourite title in the series, I'm more than willing to admit that the game was far too easy, and there wasn't as much variation between the characters as I'd like. In the end though, it's still enjoyable to play and the story and characters more than make up for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hyperion4444

Final fantasy VIII - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

IGN: FF8 Breaks Sales Records


What were you saying about it not being good?

It's the best love story ever, may not be enjoyable to anyone heartless.

It's only envy from people like you who can't accept there was a better Final Fantasy out there. And FFVII was still good.
But, like you people said, this is the reason why FFVIII gets the point.

---

I can say a game is not good no matter what the sales are, and calling it the best love story ever is pure opinion. In the words of my geometry teacher "You need to back up something, you don't just go in a court room and say your client is innocent because without having something after the because." You can't give me any reason that will convince me FFVIII had the best love story ever.

And its not envy that makes me dislike FFVIII, I dislike it, I didn't have fun and I disliked the story, and its just your stubbornness that makes it so you cannot accept it.

It's all about taste.
Everyone is different.

As for your 'broken junction system', I wouldn't say broken, but it does lack of options.
-Forced to junction GF to use Magic/Draw/Item, who came up with that?
-GF not providing Enougth Summon Power later in the game.
-Magic not using MP
-Force to Junction Magic to get much stronger.
-Enemies Level Up as you do EVERYWHERE "with Limitations to Bosses?"

Yeah, I know, believe me, And I've came up with a file how to make FFVIII Better.

Starting by Boosting their growth Stats, lowering a bit the junction magic effect.
This game's so easy to Masterise the stats.

But even different, I still like this game.

*ignores FFVIII wank-fest*

Most unreasonably disliked..? I'd say a tossup between II and IX. With II it's people calling the story/graphics/characters weak (ignoring the fact that it was made around 20 years ago), complaining endlessly about how horrible the levelling system is, or whining about how hard it is to play a game that doesn't hold your hand. :rolleyes2

With IX it's "it's childish"-based on glancing at the graphics, "It's not like the previous two"-do I even need to touch this?, or "OMG, Kuja is so gay cuz he looks like a girl!". :mad:

Final Fantasy VIII isnt unreasonably disliked.

Its reasonably disliked.


(Even though I dont dislike it overall, a good portion of the story was a flop. It was also too easy. I never died.)

How could you leave X-2 off the list? It has quite possibly the best battle system in the history of the series, and people don't like it because it's...too girly, or something?

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Originally Posted by Azar

How could you leave X-2 off the list? It has quite possibly the best battle system in the history of the series, and people don't like it because it's...too girly, or something?

---

Hey I said I was sorry... I didn't actually mean to forget. Though honestly, I was never too wild about it's battle system, but this appears to be an opinion I share alone:cry:

It's a natural progression of the job system of FFV and FFT, which is a huge plus in it's favor. Although I like the FFT version the best, even it doesn't have the option of changing jobs in mid-battle.

As for not being liked the list of charges against FFX-2 are pretty extensive:

1) Overly focused on female characters, ie 'girly'.

2) Dressphere concept inspired by dress-up dolls.

3) Costumes are skimpy to interest male gamers.

4) Annoying/uninspired music.

5) Incoherent storyline.

6) Focuses too much on sidequests.

7) Recurring characters violate their natures as established in FFX.

8) Ripoff of Charlie's Angels.

I agree the most with 7), although it's ironic that had it been a stand-alone game it would have been better but also would have gone unmade.

Actually, I would say it's a de-evolution of the FFIII battle system and the FFVI relic system. My main gripe is that this could have been streamlined for less tedious battle system. Nothing slows down the action like wasting two rounds trying to transform Yuna into a white mage or even worse, having to transform into every dressphere on your dress link in order to cast high level spells like Flare and Ultima.

The inability to have subclasses except through items was interesting but a majority of the items are worthless and lack any real strategy involved (the fire ring allows me to cast Fire and nothing else? WTF?!). It wasn't a bad system, but for a system that was boasted to put the "actve" back in active time battle, it made you do alot of tedious things to get lackluster results. I don't hate the system, and I agree with most that it was one of the better elements in the game. I just don't agree with those who claim it's one of the best systems in the series.

Personally, if Yuna wasn't such a boring lackluster character, I would have liked X-2 better. My real beef with the game is point number 7 on BG-57's list. I also don't care for how it really screws up the few good elements of FFX that I liked.

Oddly enough, I agree with most of you that it does get bashed more than it really deserves. I seriously doubt a Miami Vice rip-off sequel of FFIV starring Cecil and Kain would go down well with most fans;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

But I have to honestly say, that when peopel criticize the storylines in newer FF games it relies purely on nitpicking which then gets exaggerated.

I don't want to sound undermining, but I think some of you need to grow up and experience the real world before you call the love story "non-sensical". In real life there's plenty of examples everywhere you turn with people giving their emotions to someone who doesn't care about them. I've seen plenty of times when girls or even guys fall for the person who treats them badly, in the worst cases with significant others who are flat out cruel to them. This happens all the time. I felt VIII's love story was a little more complicated than your traditional, stereotypical, cliches video game love story and it added a level of reality to it.

---

I didn't say it made no sense for Rinoa to care about Squall. People can be attracted to others for the strangest of reasons (lord knows I've seen far more messed up crap with some of my friends than that), so her liking someone who was rude, indifferent, and never showed any feelings towards her is something I'm more than willing to accept. Squall's sudden shift in character though is something else. It's not like he accepted her affection because it was convenient and continued treating her the way he did. He had a massive shift in his attitude and behaviour towards her for no other reason than the writers decided they should be together. It didn't fit his character, and it never sat well with me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

You could look at the first 6 installments and say that they barely have character development at all, villains who are almost completely irrelevant to the plot, and hardly any plot to begin with.

---

No character development? Have you even played FFVI. There isn't may not be as much dialogue there as in future titles do to hardware limitations, but the character growth that's there is something that even most modern RPG's don't match.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

OR you could play these games for what they are and enjoy them, like my man WK said earlier in this thread. I swear internet forums are dominated, or at least infested, by a group of gamers who went through the newer FFs restlessly searching for reasons to hate them. All of the games in the series are great, especially for their respective times, so please, as gamers, as a community, we need to stop the hate.

---

At what point did I say I hate FFVIII, or any of the newer FF's for that matter (FFIX happens to be my second favourite in the series, and I feel FFX has some of the best gameplay and character development of any RPG I've ever played as well)? You see people pick apart the things they don't like about a game and assume that means they hate it. On the contrary; I love FFVIII. I just hate people who try to gloss over it's flaws and claim it's flawless. The same goes for any game for that matter. Even with FFVI, which is my favourite title in the series, I'm more than willing to admit that the game was far too easy, and there wasn't as much variation between the characters as I'd like. In the end though, it's still enjoyable to play and the story and characters more than make up for it.

---

woah, woah, hold up. first off, my bad, i didn't want you to take the whole thing as directed towards you, its just your quote was convenient for summing up people's negative views on the storyline.

Second, it's not that Squall just suddenly changed his whole persona out of nowhere. He obviously had feelings for those around them, it's just he kept them all to himself, as evidenced by the first time he really tells Rinoa how he feels is when she's in a coma, on the bridge to Esthar.

He finally learned to let go and open up, and to me that was a beautiful way to develop his character.

Speaking of character development, yes, I've beaten Final Fantasy VI 3 times now. The characters are shallow and they hardly change at all. They just stop being so self-loathing and bitchy after their respective sidequest. Cyan's really the only one who goes through a major change, learning to finally let go. But in the case of the others who change, Terra, Locke, Celes (not really), they just stop complaining. The only real character change in the entire game is a temporary loss of hope, which is quickly gotten over. Boo-hoo.

Once again, I wasn't suggesting you hate FFVIII or the newer ones, but there's a whole army (although still in the minority) of your peers who played through the newer ones with a predetermined view on them. That's all.

I'd say it's Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest. A lot of people seem to hate it because they think that it was made to insult North American gamers. Sqauresoft just wanted to give the North Americans more RPG experience. It is reasonable to assume that they needed more Squaresoft RPG gaming experience since the Japanese had a lot more of it (having 3 FF games while the North Americans only had one at the time).

It was also nice to see Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest have a few neat differences than the other games didn't (different enemy sprites for all enemies for different HP levels, block moving puzzles in quite a few of the dungeons, not going into enemy encounters unless you wanted to, having your partner be CPU controlled, tresures chest refilling themselves with potions, bombs, and arrows, using your weapons to solve puzzles and trigger switches). Although the story wasn't as good as the other FFs the gameplay made up for it.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Speaking of character development, yes, I've beaten Final Fantasy VI 3 times now. The characters are shallow and they hardly change at all. They just stop being so self-loathing and bitchy after their respective sidequest. Cyan's really the only one who goes through a major change, learning to finally let go. But in the case of the others who change, Terra, Locke, Celes (not really), they just stop complaining. The only real character change in the entire game is a temporary loss of hope, which is quickly gotten over. Boo-hoo.

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To be perfectly honest, every game after FFVI has about the same level of character growth. VII drops half the cast from the story after the first disc and even then I would only say Cid and Cloud get anything significant. Rinoa, Laguna, and Squall are the only characters who have any significant character growth in VIII. IX has decent character growth but alot of it is either poorly done (Zidane) or never has a satisfying conclusion (everyone else except for Dagger). FFX pulls an VIII and only Tidus and Wakka have any significant growth. And most people feel the cast of XII is shallow to begin with So I would love to see where you get this idea that VI (hell, any of the pre-32-bit generation FF's) has shallow character growth. ;)

To be honest, I feel Cecil and Kain from the archaic FFIV are stronger characters from a writing and story perspective than say Yuna, Barret, Zell, or Freya.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Speaking of character development, yes, I've beaten Final Fantasy VI 3 times now. The characters are shallow and they hardly change at all. They just stop being so self-loathing and bitchy after their respective sidequest. Cyan's really the only one who goes through a major change, learning to finally let go. But in the case of the others who change, Terra, Locke, Celes (not really), they just stop complaining. The only real character change in the entire game is a temporary loss of hope, which is quickly gotten over. Boo-hoo.

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To be perfectly honest, every game after FFVI has about the same level of character growth. VII drops half the cast from the story after the first disc and even then I would only say Cid and Cloud get anything significant. Rinoa, Laguna, and Squall are the only characters who have any significant character growth in VIII. IX has decent character growth but alot of it is either poorly done (Zidane) or never has a satisfying conclusion (everyone else except for Dagger). FFX pulls an VIII and only Tidus and Wakka have any significant growth. And most people feel the cast of XII is shallow to begin with So I would love to see where you get this idea that VI (hell, any of the pre-32-bit generation FF's) has shallow character growth. ;)

To be honest, I feel Cecil and Kain from the archaic FFIV are stronger characters from a writing and story perspective than say Yuna, Barret, Zell, or Freya.

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Wow. I really don't know about any of that, man. To defend my position, I would have to be here a really long time to break down the development of every character, so let's just focus on that last paragraph.

It's hard to take your statement serious, that Cecil and Kain are strong characters at all "from a writing and story perspective", much less in comparison to the latter ones. They are good video game characters, but they only exist and act within video games. It's from a generation of the artform that wasn't taken seriously by creators outside of the gaming industry. The newer ones, expressed feelings like you and I do, laughed and hurt like everyday people. It's unfeasible to even compare Yuna crying to Cecil saying "I'm a coward!"

The emotional pallette that Yuna experiences...I can't even imagine how one could begin to put that below Cecil and Kain... Everyone wants to be taken seriously, and I don't want to hurt anyone, but, are you joking?

To look at the others... Barret represents so many things from the real world that are embodied in everyday people. The conspiracy theorist, the anti-establishment dude, I've had some smoking sessions with some black muslims who are probably a little bit of the inspiration that Nomura/Sakaguchi took for him. He also has a dark past where he blames himself for the loss of alot of lives. Later on in the game he gains retribution. On Disc 2, btw, which is a reason why I was scratching my head when you said

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VII drops half the cast from the story after the first disc and even then I would only say Cid and Cloud get anything significant.

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After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

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Your first paragraph wasn't wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be serious about that 2nd one. Kain is a dragoon and barely human outside of that? What? You don't think many people can relate to unrequited love, and close friendships that become rivalries? From that to reconciling with his friend and doing the right thing, even though it's gotta feel like crap for him to watch Cecil and Rosa together, then making the effort to overcome his demons instead of going to their wedding. I don't think Kain is at all weaker than characters from later games. Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot.

Personally, i think that, although the second generation games do have things that people can refine to, i don't think they properally nailed it until the third generation games.

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Originally Posted by ,,,

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

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Your first paragraph wasn't wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be serious about that 2nd one. Kain is a dragoon and barely human outside of that? What? You don't think many people can relate to unrequited love, and close friendships that become rivalries? From that to reconciling with his friend and doing the right thing, even though it's gotta feel like crap for him to watch Cecil and Rosa together, then making the effort to overcome his demons instead of going to their wedding. I don't think Kain is at all weaker than characters from later games. Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot.

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I completely understand where you're coming from, but be careful before you start saying

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Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot

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If you paid attention to my post (rather than skimming through it for things to disagree with) you would notice I used the word "barely." The love triangle is a nice little twist thrown into IV's plot, but it barely scratches the surface of the concept, and really has no reason to be there other than the make the story a little more interesting. I do not dislike the older games at all. I play them all frequently, maybe even a little more than I get around to the VII and the post-VII ones.

But jammi567 summed it up perfectly. The 2nd generation began to scratch the surface of these things, but they seem to never go further than skin deep. And there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't stop them all from being great games.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by ,,,

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

After that, I think it would be a little redundant for me to go any further. I think maybe you should give the PSX ones another go, because it seems to me there's alot that you missed. Freya's scene where Sir Fratley simply denies knowing her is a crazy scene that alot of people can relate to. Zell's struggle to prove himself to the world and a bully is something alot of people can relate to. You can relate to the 2d generation fine, but you have to find a way to translate your experiences to the world in the game. Cecil and Kain are a Dark Knight and a Dragoon, their personalities barely exist outside of that, barely cross over into the classification of "human being".

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Your first paragraph wasn't wrong, but I'm wondering how you can be serious about that 2nd one. Kain is a dragoon and barely human outside of that? What? You don't think many people can relate to unrequited love, and close friendships that become rivalries? From that to reconciling with his friend and doing the right thing, even though it's gotta feel like crap for him to watch Cecil and Rosa together, then making the effort to overcome his demons instead of going to their wedding. I don't think Kain is at all weaker than characters from later games. Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot.

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I completely understand where you're coming from, but be careful before you start saying

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Maybe people tend not to notice the character development in the games they don't like as much? Talk about missing a lot

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If you paid attention to my post (rather than skimming through it for things to disagree with) you would notice I used the word "barely." The love triangle is a nice little twist thrown into IV's plot, but it barely scratches the surface of the concept, and really has no reason to be there other than the make the story a little more interesting. I do not dislike the older games at all. I play them all frequently, maybe even a little more than I get around to the VII and the post-VII ones.

But jammi567 summed it up perfectly. The 2nd generation began to scratch the surface of these things, but they seem to never go further than skin deep. And there's nothing wrong with that, it doesn't stop them all from being great games.

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Someone is getting defensive *eyeroll.* Yes I read your post, no I did not skim it, and no I was not looking for things to disagree with. If you read my post instead of skimming it for things to disagree with (ooooh, slinging baseless accusations is fun!) you'd know that saying Kain is barely human outside of being a dragoon is exactly what I take issue with, as Kain is as strong if not stronger than Freyja or Zell. Sorry for not quoting what you said back to you verbatim, but I thought I'd save myself the typing.

As for the sentence you took issue with, no I'm not going to "be careful" when I say things like that. I figure it's a pretty good assumption by the way you're constantly trying to explain why you think that the newer games are superior that you must not like the old ones as much (Not that you dislike them. Once again, it helps to read.....). If that assumption is wrong after all, which I doubt, then eh. You could never possibly even begin to imagine how little I give a crap.

The point of my statement, is not so much to add to the stupid debate of "which generation is better" cause god knows it's irrelevant to me. My point is the fact that I feel the later games (though there are shining exceptions) have some of the same problems I have with the earlier games.

I do feel Kain and Cecil are equally on par with their contemporaries like Squall, Wakka, and Lady Ashe and this is due to the fact that all these characters have dramatic changes to their character throughout the story. By end game they are different than who they began as. The love triangle explains a bit of the dynamics of their relationship, but I'm happy it's never divulged more than it was (though it does play quite a large role), but that's due to my stance that romance needs to play second or third fiddle in stories that are not romances.

It all comes down to perspective, some look at the the old games and see the characters as two-dimensional "puppets" while some look at the later generations and see cliche's that are supposedly deeper cause "daddy hit me when I was little" but in the end the character is still no different than the guy he's based on from a few generations that didn't have some bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: backstory to force sympathy from the player.

Barrett may in fact be all those things to you, but to me he was a stereotypical "angry black guy" who decided to add an ecological philosophy to justify his hate of the "man" and the "establishment". He does have some depth in the form of Marlene but I actually feel it's presentation is no better than an older game like FFII or FFIV. This is not a bad thing or a slam. It just shows that you can reach great levels of depth with a character through simple actions and dialogue instead of long drawn out bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: that suddenly leads to an "epiphany" for the character about 30 minutes before the game ends.

VIII and four are very similiar cause both games tend to focus on a few key characters while others characters remain the charactures they appear as. Zell really has no developement. I can't say that he even changed a little from when he was first introduced. His growth is minimal at best but his role is more to play a male counter to Squall. But it works for the story in VIII.

But Freya's story ends after she meets Fratley, it somehow gets resolved when we see the ending but I don't remember anything happening to her between the halfway point of Disc 2 and the ending we saw in Disc 4. I love Freya but her character was barely used in IX imho.

Yes, VII does drop half the cast after the second disc. Like FFVI, most of the characters get one token scene and suddenly all their problems are fixed or no longer important (Cloud especially). Tifa gets some growth but I feel Tifa needed more in order to make the story believable and frankly she's the reason why Cloud's story never worked for me. Cid has his shining moment with his story being resolved but what of Red XIII and Cait Sith? Even Barrett really gets nothing, he has a chance when you try to save his hometown from the train but the story doesn't even register he's there. About the only thing he gets is is the brief scene where he explains how he formed AVALNCHE. Even you can't tell me that this scene is somehow deeper than Setzer talking of his former love who taught him to live freely, or Krile talking to Mid about thier grandfathers, or even Rydia's story.

Consequently, I feel Cloud's greatest level of character growth was in AC, which might explain why I like the story better. I told my friend after watching the movie that it redeemed VII for me, cause it finally focused on something I felt the original story left out.

I won't go into Yuna cause she is responsible for me never being able to buy into X's plot (to sum it up, she's a cliche) or cast (cause I can't see them caring about this cliche) and because it would take way too much time and involve me going into my "Why X is a mediocre game". X is still the only game that was boring and unpleasant to play for me.

I don't believe the older games are better than the new generation, just like I don't believe the new generation is necessarily better than the old. I hate debating this cause I seriously feel the games work on an individual basis. I do feel the older games have a greater level of depth than many refuse to give them credit for. I also believe the newer generation fails (exactly like the old generation did) to maximize the depth of their characters and story. I'm not trying to pull one down from the other, I'm just saying I see most of them on a single plain together.

VIII doesn't have anymore depth to me than IV does. VIII's got like 20x times more dialogue but I feel IV was able to tell a compelling and relevant story that can truly inspire you just like VIII did, only in fewer words. Length doesn't mean anything if the writer fails to maximize what he can do. Case in point, you tend to mention the scene where Barrett talks about the social plight of Midgard and how ahead of it's time it is, but the story never really delves into it after the first Disc and even then it's a minor comment here and there instead of being a major focus of the story, so can one say it's really relevant?

It depends upon perspective and the individual. For me, I decided it was irrelevant and so it's not a big deal. Either way I still believe it's wasted potential for the story; it could have had a larger role in the story but instead it's mainly there to show you that Shin-Ra is bad and nothing more. It's almost the same as the Empire controlling towns through martial law in II and VI to me. Of course this is all my own opinion and nothing more so you are free to ignore me if you wish;)

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Barrett may in fact be all those things to you, but to me he was a stereotypical "angry black guy" who decided to add an ecological philosophy to justify his hate of the "man" and the "establishment".

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You win.

Better watch out what you say about Barrett, fo' he gets metaphysical on yo' ass!

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Originally Posted by ,,,

You could never possibly even begin to imagine how little I give a crap.

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Probably not, but if I had to guess, I would say enough to write two responses in which you attempt in the latter to regurgitate everything I say.

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Originally Posted by ,,,

If you read my post instead of skimming it for things to disagree with (ooooh, slinging baseless accusations is fun!) you'd know that saying Kain is barely human outside of being a dragoon is exactly what I take issue with

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Um, I did acknowledge that... Your sarcasm is amusing but it seems that you don't have much to say about what I actually discussed. Do you feel the "love triangle" does more than scratch the surface, or did your imagination compensate for the emptiness of the thing? I wasn't getting defensive, but it's hard to measure connotation through type. I forgive you :cool:

And WK, are you aware you wrote over 1000 words? To me, it's the classic argument you give everytime a conflict of "generation" comes up:

You heavily scrutinize every individual aspect of the newer games and characters while generalizing, overexagerating, and creating synthetic meaning in the older ones, all the while insisting that you do not care either way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with "daddy hit me when i was little" stories or "bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: backstories". I'm also curious as to what you're trying to get at with Barret. Look at it this way:

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

[
And WK, are you aware you wrote over 1000 words? To me, it's the classic argument you give everytime a conflict of "generation" comes up:

You heavily scrutinize every individual aspect of the newer games and characters while generalizing, overexagerating, and creating synthetic meaning in the older ones, all the while insisting that you do not care either way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with "daddy hit me when i was little" stories or "bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: backstories". I'm also curious as to what you're trying to get at with Barret. Look at it this way:

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

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Wow... that entire retort was not even a retort but a clever attack on me. You basically said I was wrong about Barrett without giving any evidence on the contrary from within the game but instead basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!" and then said it was beneath you to bother with any of my more compelling arguments cause I obviously didn't "get" Barrett while accusing me of giving baseless, personal arguments...

Your logic astounds me:D ;)

First off, you do not know me, so you can't really say I hate the newer games for sure. Yes I scrutinize them, but it's to prove they are no better than any other game. It pisses me off to walk into forums treating FFVII and X like they were the holy smurfing grail of RPGs when both games (though good in their respective rights) are equally flawed as any other FF and any other game for that matter. I actually do have some issues with the older games even from a writing and character stand point but it's pointless to argue cause most people retort with the "STFU Wolf, the games are old and have technology limits!" I still say that's bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: and they could have done more or fixed this plot hole or he pacing is off here but no one ever listens... The newer games don't have such technology issues but they still fall into the same trappings that the older games have with only half developed casts, pointless plot twists, and questionable story choices. I'm accusing the whole series of this though; not just the new generations.

I know for many, VII was some life altering, end all be all to existence, experience for many, but to me "...it was Tuesday" ;) I cannot fathom how anyone would think it was anymore special than any other game. I actually like VII, VIII, IX (In fact this thread is the first thread I've ever stated anything negative about IX) and XII. I do fully enjoy the older games and funny enough, I've played them more than the older games and not for the sole reason to find new ways to "stick it to the fanboys" but rather cause I generally like them. Hell IX is like my third favorite game in the series tied with FFV and XII is easily my fourth favorite.

I don't care for X but that's based on too many factors and personally for me, it was inevitable that I would dislike it. I simply don't agree with anything about the game but that's more of personal taste, though I still feel the quality is questionable but that's arguable. I'm sorry I don't see these games as a "second coming" of RPGs or "the genre finally reaching it's true potential". I felt it happened when the genre began and it's been evolving since. Maybe not always for the better but at least it's still trying to be more than it once was.

As for Kain... I don't feel the love triangle was shallow. Certainly Kain could have done more but I feel it's point was to clarify the complex relationship between the three characters and to justify Kain's reasoning for betrayal. To be honest, the amount of detail is no greater than Shakespeare's "Othello" and any theatre and literary major will argue that "Othello" is one of the greatest stories of betrayal and complex love in recorded history. Yet it can easily be argued that the characters have no more history or depth as IV's 2d counterparts.

Also Kain seems to always play second fiddle to Cecil, which is brought to light when he talks about how he chose to be a Dragoon instead of a Dark Knight like the King of Baron wanted and how this decision affected his rank within the kingdom. This scene can be interpreted as implying the jealousy is more than just the "love triangle" . Now you will probably say I'm "reading too much into this" but can you tell me why the scene is in there otherwise? It's not like Kain's the only dragoon in a DK army since Cecil is the only DK in the game. The man has a great wealth of depth and I feel he could easily stand next to some of the newer characters to appear in the series. There alot of depth there but I feel you must have "missed it" when you played the old games like I did for the newer ones. ;)

I don't believe the old games are anywhere near perfect, but I can live with their flaws better; which is why I tend to speak little ill will about them. I still do though, I'm just not as vocal about it on this board. Certainly I have issues with the current main team but that's because X burned me pretty bad so they have to redeem themselves for me. You don't lay an egg like that and expect someone to "jump for joy" when the new project is announced. I'm not that forgiving I'm afraid...

I'm sorry if I feel the older games are actually really good and written well enough to be enduring by even todays standards from an intellectual and mature level. I'm sorry that I don't scrutinize and tear them apart. I'm sorry I don't feel the new games are anymore special than the older games and that even though the new games have allowed some truly remarkable storytelling that it still fails to learn from the mistakes of it's technological ancestors without the benefit of what I feel is actually an irrelevant excuse. I scrutinize them but it's because I don't usually like to sugar coat my beliefs. and even then, I feel you take my opinion too seriously. I usually defend what I feel is looked down upon for no apparent reason but it doesn't necessarily mean it's where I stand in my beliefs. I just happen to like conflict so I tend to instigate it whenever I can ;)

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Um, I did acknowledge that... Your sarcasm is amusing but it seems that you don't have much to say about what I actually discussed. Do you feel the "love triangle" does more than scratch the surface, or did your imagination compensate for the emptiness of the thing? I wasn't getting defensive, but it's hard to measure connotation through type. I forgive you :cool:

And WK, are you aware you wrote over 1000 words? To me, it's the classic argument you give everytime a conflict of "generation" comes up:

You heavily scrutinize every individual aspect of the newer games and characters while generalizing, overexagerating, and creating synthetic meaning in the older ones, all the while insisting that you do not care either way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with "daddy hit me when i was little" stories or "bull:skull::skull::skull::skull: backstories". I'm also curious as to what you're trying to get at with Barret. Look at it this way:

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

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Wow, strike two for you on reading what I said. Actually, I’m not sure exactly what’s going on here. You either didn’t read much of what I said, or you were in such a hurry to “school” someone who was disagreeing with you that you sacrificed small details like “comprehension,” or you intentionally are taking things I say out of context. God, where do I even start? I'll try to do it sequentially.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Probably not, but if I had to guess, I would say enough to write two responses in which you attempt in the latter to regurgitate everything I say.

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I was referring not to the entire post, I was referring to if I were (and I doubt I am) wrong about you liking the newer games more than the older ones. A point I mentioned once, just then.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Um, I did acknowledge that... Your sarcasm is amusing but it seems that you don't have much to say about what I actually discussed. Do you feel the "love triangle" does more than scratch the surface, or did your imagination compensate for the emptiness of the thing? I wasn't getting defensive, but it's hard to measure connotation through type. I forgive you :cool:

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another F for comprehension. You're forgetting what we were actually talking about. The issue wasn't how deep they scratched the surface of the love triangle, the issue was is Kain a strong character. I'll go ahead and answer you anyway, since you so impolitely asked....

I think they did a great job with the love triangle as a component to the story. Kain loves Rosa who loves his best friend, Cecil. This causes rivalry between them as well as the darkness in Kain that allows him to be controlled. The "darkness" and overcoming it is the main part of the story, not the love triangle. Kain regains consciousness while controlled but still fights with Cecil because he thinks he can show Rosa that he's the better man. And in the end, he misses the wedding of his best friend because, even though the last boss has been defeated, the real "evil" is not gone from the world as it exists in everyone, and he sets out to conquer his demons as the woman he loves marries his best friend. By the way, I mentioned this in my first post, thanks for noticing. This story was well done as it was all to serve the main story. Any deeper would have detracted from the real point of the game.

Now back to the actual issue you were supposed to be adressing, Kain's humanity. I would say that yes this makes Kain VERY human, not just "barely" human. It makes me feel like Kain as a character has thoughts and feeling and inner struggles like you and I. He works just as well as some latter day character. I'm not saying he's better than vincent or barret, but he's no less human.

Also, I assumed you were getting defensive not by your tone but by the way you opted not to discuss or debate civilly, but instead decided to address me in a condescending manner. I know I'm WAY too old to be arguing with someone on a message board, but we all have our foxholes on what offends us and what really offends us, and you happened to hit mine. As much as I know I should be the mature person and ignore you, I can't let it go when you try to talk down to me. And don't try to pretend that wasn't your intention,

"If you paid attention to my post (rather than skimming through it for things to disagree with) you would notice I used the word "barely."

is a pretty damn condescending way to address someone. especially since I'm not guilty of any of which you accused me of and frankly I don't see how you could've gotten that impression had you yourself not been in such a hurry to show me who has the bigger e-penis. So yes I responded immaturely, but that's karma for ya. Which segues into the last thing,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, blah blah blah

---

Again, a more careful reading of my post and you'll notice the only thing I called baseless was your accusation that I did, well, exactly what you did and just wanted to attack without reading your post. since you were completely wrong and had nothing to base that on, I'd say the word "baseless" is pretty accurate. As for your analysis of barrett I could care less since I never brought up barrett anyway.

Now if you'd like to talk about FFIV and Kain in a more civil manner that's great, but you're not going to act like a dick anymore. I'm not going to use this space to boast about my intelligence, but I will say I'm pretty freaking far from being stupid and I will not put up with being talked down to. Put the e-penis away, cause seriously, no one wants to look at that thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Barrett may in fact be all those things to you, but to me he was a stereotypical "angry black guy" who decided to add an ecological philosophy to justify his hate of the "man" and the "establishment".

---

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x...umorcensor.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ,,,

Now if you'd like to talk about FFIV and Kain in a more civil manner that's great, but you're not going to act like a dick anymore. I'm not going to use this space to boast about my intelligence, but I will say I'm pretty freaking far from being stupid and I will not put up with being talked down to. Put the e-penis away, cause seriously, no one wants to look at that thing.

---

ok... I'm pretty sure we can discuss this without having to bring up our "e-penises"...lol

man, I'm sorry if I offended you, I think this all results from a misunderstanding moreso than a disagreement. I'm glad we can both agree that FFIV is a pretty great game with a good storyline. My point was that the love triangle is one of the few, if not the only, ways in which Kain acts like someone who isn't stuck inside a video game. You elaborated on it very well, and again, it was never my intention to talk down to you or anything like that.

But as far as this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Wow... that entire retort was not even a retort but a clever attack on me. You basically said I was wrong about Barrett without giving any evidence on the contrary from within the game but instead basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!" and then said it was beneath you to bother with any of my more compelling arguments cause I obviously didn't "get" Barrett while accusing me of giving baseless, personal arguments...

Your logic astounds me

---

I guess the best way to go about this would be to just bold a few things:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

---

So there are two examples of when I cited evidence within the game that Barret isn't just the "stereotypical angry black guy!" yet you accuse me of

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!"

---

So not only have you demonstrated that you, as i stated twice now, have missed (or maybe just forgotten) what occurs in the game, but you are either ignoring or just not reading what I said in my post.

If the irony wasn't overwhelming enough, you accuse me of taking your opinion "too seriously" yet you succeeded (yet again) in producing a 1,000+ word response to what I had to say.

Umm....okay

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

man, I'm sorry if I offended you

---

Alright, it's cool =)

i'd have to say VIII has always had the most critisism in my opinion, always in the shadow of VII.
then IX was a GREAT game, but i could barely ever find someone to talk with about it, everyone was still on VII's nuts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ,,,

Now if you'd like to talk about FFIV and Kain in a more civil manner that's great, but you're not going to act like a dick anymore. I'm not going to use this space to boast about my intelligence, but I will say I'm pretty freaking far from being stupid and I will not put up with being talked down to. Put the e-penis away, cause seriously, no one wants to look at that thing.

---

ok... I'm pretty sure we can discuss this without having to bring up our "e-penises"...lol

man, I'm sorry if I offended you, I think this all results from a misunderstanding moreso than a disagreement. I'm glad we can both agree that FFIV is a pretty great game with a good storyline. My point was that the love triangle is one of the few, if not the only, ways in which Kain acts like someone who isn't stuck inside a video game. You elaborated on it very well, and again, it was never my intention to talk down to you or anything like that.

But as far as this:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Wow... that entire retort was not even a retort but a clever attack on me. You basically said I was wrong about Barrett without giving any evidence on the contrary from within the game but instead basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!" and then said it was beneath you to bother with any of my more compelling arguments cause I obviously didn't "get" Barrett while accusing me of giving baseless, personal arguments...

Your logic astounds me

---

I guess the best way to go about this would be to just bold a few things:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Barret is just as much the stereotypical anti-establishment "black guy" as Kain is the stereotypical jelous best-friend. Except Barret's whole hometown was murdered at the hands of the forward march of capitalism. What's Kain's reason? Oh yeah, there is none...

It's hard for me to take the rest of your post serious, especially the end (Barret's discussion of Midgar's situation). It only re-confirms that you indeed missed alot from the games that came out on Sony consoles. For the sake of ",,," not calling this baseless, I will say that 1) It showed that what Japan and America have termed "progress" is not always best for everyone and 2) It is later revealed that it is only one perspective, as constantly throughout the game the player is also hit with reasons on why Shinra is good. And on the 2nd disc, Barret realizes that both sides indeed have their merit, and comes to realize that it's not a clear-cut issue. So if you could explain to me how this development falls under "stereotypical black guy!" and everything else you completely ignore and marginalize, maybe I could start taking you more seriously.

---

So there are two examples of when I cited evidence within the game that Barret isn't just the "stereotypical angry black guy!" yet you accuse me of

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

basically saying "you're just wrong and I'm right!"

---

So not only have you demonstrated that you, as i stated twice now, have missed (or maybe just forgotten) what occurs in the game, but you are either ignoring or just not reading what I said in my post.

If the irony wasn't overwhelming enough, you accuse me of taking your opinion "too seriously" yet you succeeded (yet again) in producing a 1,000+ word response to what I had to say.

Umm....okay

---

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

---

woah! Kanno, back from the dead. I was gettin worried. Anyway, i forgot what the hell we were arguin about... I guess all i got to say to your post:

1) that doesn't seem to be what Barret's story is all about. The issue is resolved if you remember the Corel episode during the scramble for the Huge Materia *cough*Crystals*cough*. He and the miners realize that the blame is rightfully placed on Shinra, and that they're stronger working together. I can relate to to the concept of kain's struggle, but not to the character. There's no backstory to it and it's not delved into on any level...quite unlike Barret.

2) He discusses this if you talk to him on the highwind, i believe on the way to midgar. And i don't think i've ever said Shinra redeemed themselves. Save the Turks and Reeve, the whole of them act selfishly evil throughout the entire game, which is why I was surprised with Rufus expressing regret in Advent Children (i think the game intended him to stay dead). Barret instead realizes that not everyone who works for Shinra is evil, and comes to understand that his original methods weren't the right way to go about it. This is tremendous development, which is absent from older characters, like Kain. But I believe that Kain's refusal to deal with what he's done right away played well for the story of FFIV.

It's good to hear from you again and I hope all is well. Things have been pretty boring on here.

I'd just like to clear up something and play devil's advocate with something I read posted by Bolivar. Bolivar said there's no backstory to Kain's struggle with light and good. Thats wrong. The backstory between the two is Kain has (perhaps in his subconscious?) genuine envy toward Cecil, because at one time, Kain, was dating Rosa. I forget exactly where this is stated, if I remember, I will post it. This is why Golbez can get ahold of him and taint him, and why when he has Rosa tied up he says something along the lines "I will show that I am more powerful then your Cecil!".


Had to point that out, I can never sit by and watch someone talk about FFIV xD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

I'd just like to clear up something and play devil's advocate with something I read posted by Bolivar. Bolivar said there's no backstory to Kain's struggle with light and good. Thats wrong. The backstory between the two is Kain has (perhaps in his subconscious?) genuine envy toward Cecil, because at one time, Kain, was dating Rosa. I forget exactly where this is stated, if I remember, I will post it. This is why Golbez can get ahold of him and taint him, and why when he has Rosa tied up he says something along the lines "I will show that I am more powerful then your Cecil!".


Had to point that out, I can never sit by and watch someone talk about FFIV xD

---

what i meant is the back story is never fleshed out in the game, and I've never seen it mentioned that Kain had dated Rosa. I've played through it twice, maybe it's missing from the GBA version, which I find hard to believe since it expanded the storyline.

I hope you don't get me wrong, I love IV, I just don't see its characters and story being compared to later titles - which i don't mean as a diss, it didn't need crazy depth to still be a classic game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Goldenboko

I'd just like to clear up something and play devil's advocate with something I read posted by Bolivar. Bolivar said there's no backstory to Kain's struggle with light and good. Thats wrong. The backstory between the two is Kain has (perhaps in his subconscious?) genuine envy toward Cecil, because at one time, Kain, was dating Rosa. I forget exactly where this is stated, if I remember, I will post it. This is why Golbez can get ahold of him and taint him, and why when he has Rosa tied up he says something along the lines "I will show that I am more powerful then your Cecil!".


Had to point that out, I can never sit by and watch someone talk about FFIV xD

---

what i meant is the back story is never fleshed out in the game, and I've never seen it mentioned that Kain had dated Rosa. I've played through it twice, maybe it's missing from the GBA version, which I find hard to believe since it expanded the storyline.

I hope you don't get me wrong, I love IV, I just don't see its characters and story being compared to later titles - which i don't mean as a diss, it didn't need crazy depth to still be a classic game.

---

Do you consider The Ultimania Guides as proper translations of storyline? If so, then you have to do the same with what was said about Rosa, Cecil and Kain.

Ultimania guides are cool, but they don't change what actually happens in a game. I'm not comparing or discussing each canon, but the merits of the games themselves. They made an Ultimania for IV?

No but somewhere (I'll try and get back to you where), they published some backstory to FFIV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

---

woah! Kanno, back from the dead. I was gettin worried. Anyway, i forgot what the hell we were arguin about... I guess all i got to say to your post:

1) that doesn't seem to be what Barret's story is all about. The issue is resolved if you remember the Corel episode during the scramble for the Huge Materia *cough*Crystals*cough*. He and the miners realize that the blame is rightfully placed on Shinra, and that they're stronger working together. I can relate to to the concept of kain's struggle, but not to the character. There's no backstory to it and it's not delved into on any level...quite unlike Barret.

2) He discusses this if you talk to him on the highwind, i believe on the way to midgar. And i don't think i've ever said Shinra redeemed themselves. Save the Turks and Reeve, the whole of them act selfishly evil throughout the entire game, which is why I was surprised with Rufus expressing regret in Advent Children (i think the game intended him to stay dead). Barret instead realizes that not everyone who works for Shinra is evil, and comes to understand that his original methods weren't the right way to go about it. This is tremendous development, which is absent from older characters, like Kain. But I believe that Kain's refusal to deal with what he's done right away played well for the story of FFIV.

It's good to hear from you again and I hope all is well. Things have been pretty boring on here.

---

Glad to be back for awhile. Personal life has been taking a hit but in a good way. I'm always happy to have stimulating conversation with you Bolivar ;)

Anyway...

1) The problem with the Corel scene is that Barrett is optional; which brings me up to my earlier point of having a wonderful setup to let his character shine but its wasted. Barrett doesn't even have to be there and the townsfolk come to this revelation. Even if Barrett is in your party the scenario doesn't alter to put him in account which is really sad and disappointing. I know I give Barrett a lot of smack but I actually do like him. Granted having him there gives a sorta feeling it might affect him, his lack of interaction makes it a poor scene to cite as a revelation for his character.

Kain does have little in detail of backstory compared to Barrett but he makes up for it with actions and a few choice words. He confesses to Cecil after Golbez's defeat that even though he had been corrupted it was based on true feelings of envy and jealousy, his feelings for Rosa are shone true beforehand cause his first thought when he awoke was to save Rosa rather than face Cecil. He betrays you many times but counters by saving your party's life afterwards. When he permanently joins you he fights with Edge who still refuses to trust him (for good reason) and Kain honorably chooses the path to let Edge kill him if this scenario happened. In the end, Kain chooses to leave and take his own journey of redemption that Cecil took. He knows he is weak but he strives to be strong cause he knows he cannot be happy fulfilling his own selfish desires. Of anything Kain's ending speaks volumes of his character if you are willing to delve a little deeper.

2) Once again an almost optional scene but as I stated he never gives any evidence how Shin-Ra isn't evil and just comes up with this epiphany. Its mostly speculation. I must laugh cause at this point the whole party literally devolves into a 2nd grade class assignment of "What I learned on my journey with Cloud!" where every character magically tells you their wonderful epiphany in the game, except VII doesn't have Kefka telling you to "shut up and how you sound like pages from a self help booklit" ;) Granted half the character do have well thought out answers it's just that story evidence doesn't make Barrets nearly as compelling as say Cid's epiphany. Perhaps the reasons were there, but I can't agree that the story told it well. I still feel that VII does have good writing its just not spaced out as well as I would like which is my problem with VI and IV.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bolivar

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

1) Home town was destroyed cause Shin-ra betrayed them. It creates motive but Barrett spends the entire game running away from the fact he was responsible for this incedent. He's aware he's responsible and starts to make amends due to Dyne but its never resolved even though the game creates a perfect opportunity to do it. The real problem though is that Barrett is wraught with guilt over allowing Shin-Ra to destroy his home. Kain has jealousies between a friend who is not only well more liked and respected than he is but also has the heart of the woman he secretly loves. Between these two, a player may sympathize with Barrett more cause he's suffered worse, but they relate and understand Kain better cause his problems are not outside the realm of possibilities for average people. Yes this establishes why Barrett acts the way he does but the game never expands on it in a way to allow him to grow except...

2) Has epiphany that both sides are neither good or evil. Now while I will admit that this is rather deep and profound its a baseless statement when placed in context of the games story. Where does Barrett come up with this revelation? When does Shin-Ra ever redeem themselves and show a good side? Cause they tried to save the planet from the WEAPONS and Meteor? Please, they blame the whole thing on Avalanche, and their methods are almost as damaging to the planet as they things they are trying to stop. Also Shin-Ra never states why they did this other than we don't want the world to end. They are saving themselves and would probably never care about anyone else. Course this is assumption but either way you look at it, you can't confirm it was a selfless act. Besides, if Shin-ra redeemed themselves, why does the party spend the entire second disc trying to stop them from saving the planet?

This thread will probably be shut down but if you wish to continue discussing it through PM I am more than happy to do so. :)

---

woah! Kanno, back from the dead. I was gettin worried. Anyway, i forgot what the hell we were arguin about... I guess all i got to say to your post:

1) that doesn't seem to be what Barret's story is all about. The issue is resolved if you remember the Corel episode during the scramble for the Huge Materia *cough*Crystals*cough*. He and the miners realize that the blame is rightfully placed on Shinra, and that they're stronger working together. I can relate to to the concept of kain's struggle, but not to the character. There's no backstory to it and it's not delved into on any level...quite unlike Barret.

2) He discusses this if you talk to him on the highwind, i believe on the way to midgar. And i don't think i've ever said Shinra redeemed themselves. Save the Turks and Reeve, the whole of them act selfishly evil throughout the entire game, which is why I was surprised with Rufus expressing regret in Advent Children (i think the game intended him to stay dead). Barret instead realizes that not everyone who works for Shinra is evil, and comes to understand that his original methods weren't the right way to go about it. This is tremendous development, which is absent from older characters, like Kain. But I believe that Kain's refusal to deal with what he's done right away played well for the story of FFIV.

It's good to hear from you again and I hope all is well. Things have been pretty boring on here.

---

Glad to be back for awhile. Personal life has been taking a hit but in a good way. I'm always happy to have stimulating conversation with you Bolivar ;)

Anyway...

1) The problem with the Corel scene is that Barrett is optional; which brings me up to my earlier point of having a wonderful setup to let his character shine but its wasted. Barrett doesn't even have to be there and the townsfolk come to this revelation. Even if Barrett is in your party the scenario doesn't alter to put him in account which is really sad and disappointing. I know I give Barrett a lot of smack but I actually do like him. Granted having him there gives a sorta feeling it might affect him, his lack of interaction makes it a poor scene to cite as a revelation for his character.

Kain does have little in detail of backstory compared to Barrett but he makes up for it with actions and a few choice words. He confesses to Cecil after Golbez's defeat that even though he had been corrupted it was based on true feelings of envy and jealousy, his feelings for Rosa are shone true beforehand cause his first thought when he awoke was to save Rosa rather than face Cecil. He betrays you many times but counters by saving your party's life afterwards. When he permanently joins you he fights with Edge who still refuses to trust him (for good reason) and Kain honorably chooses the path to let Edge kill him if this scenario happened. In the end, Kain chooses to leave and take his own journey of redemption that Cecil took. He knows he is weak but he strives to be strong cause he knows he cannot be happy fulfilling his own selfish desires. Of anything Kain's ending speaks volumes of his character if you are willing to delve a little deeper.

2) Once again an almost optional scene but as I stated he never gives any evidence how Shin-Ra isn't evil and just comes up with this epiphany. Its mostly speculation. I must laugh cause at this point the whole party literally devolves into a 2nd grade class assignment of "What I learned on my journey with Cloud!" where every character magically tells you their wonderful epiphany in the game, except VII doesn't have Kefka telling you to "shut up and how you sound like pages from a self help booklit" ;) Granted half the character do have well thought out answers it's just that story evidence doesn't make Barrets nearly as compelling as say Cid's epiphany. Perhaps the reasons were there, but I can't agree that the story told it well. I still feel that VII does have good writing its just not spaced out as well as I would like which is my problem with VI and IV.

---

1) I didn't realize Barret wasn't mandatory for that mission... it's a shame as I always thought it was a great scene, him making up for burden he had to bear for so long.

2) lol, yes, i agree it becomes into "What I learned on my journey with Cloud!" (lol @ magically tells you")

But that harkens back to my original point - as corny as this can be, this was the standard of dialogue for all games in the 16-bit era and before...

and again, that doesn't stop them from being some of my favorite games, but I can't see the merits of their characters being compared.

I agree VII suffers a bit from 16-bit era dialogue (and I don't think theres anything wrong with that) problems but as for character merits from older games to newer, I feel the newer games have few characters that are truly outstanding. Squall, Vivi, and Tidus come to mind as well as Lady Ashe but it seems to me that only a small handful of characters get any real depth and personal exploration and the rest are just there and are no better than their former counterparts. Even the quality of villains seems to be slacking recently and are no better than there 8 and 16 bit counterparts.

I would argue that Cecil, Kain, and a few choice characters from V and VI can hold there own against the new games. Granted their backstories are not as fleshed out but their trials and tribulations are just as compelling and well written as their contemparies. I look for growth in the characters and I see it in the older games just as I do in the newer. There might not be as much dialogue or droning over personal anguish but the journey still leads to a change.

Lord I think you and I have found a new subject to argue about...;)

Well I guess we can agree to disagree. I personally see the series as an ever-increasing growth in storytelling and gameplay with a few minor drawbacks in individual aspects of some games. XII keeps getting better and better for me as time goes on and also as I go back to re-play it.

I guess I can understand how someone who had a different gaming experience and expectations might fondly reminisce over the glory of an older era, but for me it looks like the best is yet to come.

I agree that the series is still growing and posseses the possibility of achieving great lengths in terms of character and story but I have a more pessimistic view.

I still feel like the series has gotten a bit off track and is beginning to fall into the same trappings of other storytelling media; its becoming formulatic(sp?). Playing through X again I get frustrated by how predictable and stale the writing and characters are compaed to earlier installments. XII regained some of my faith but I know most people hate its brand of storytelling and though I love XII's plot even I'm disappointed when I compare it to the Tactics teams earlier and more complex works.

Still the possibility is there but I've lost some faith in the current team cause I realize now when I look at everything else they've made that they wish to make movies and not "interactive experiences". The XIII Project may change my opinion but only time will tell.

I'd have to say VIII gets the most unreasonable criticism. Sure I'm pretty outspoken about some of its aspects - most particularly, it's horrible neglect of the secondary characters, especially Quistis. However, despite all the issues people have with the gameplay, storytelling and characterisations, FFVIII utterly captivated me from the moment I first played it. I was totally enthralled the whole way through (except for a slow period near the start of disc one), and the ending had me on the edge of my seat until that final post-credits clip.
Granted, I first played the game when I was about 16, so my outlook's a bit different now, but it's still a mighty fine piece of work. It had a different combat system and overall style, which was nice. A lack of new ideas is the worst thing that could happen to the series, so it was good that FFVIII experimented a little.

FFX-2 gets a whole lot of unreasoned criticism, too. For some reason, people expect the FFX sequel to have a whole new world with new characters, all-new locations and a completely new plot. Rather daft, seeing as it's a sequel set in the same world. Granted, the non-linear style makes it harder to appreciate the overall story; you have to try in order to appreciate its depth, which means you have to be intent on enjoying the story if you want to go through the trouble. The style's too upbeat, people say. Again, it's usually just complaint because they've been faced with something new. Characters who begin their journey having fun and living life, rather than facing a crisis from the outset. Too much like Charlie's Angels? I find this rather daft. It has three women who travel the world and dispatch villains while having fun, but that's as far as the similarity goes. Might as well call FFVII a Charlie's Angels clone, as it meets the same criteria.
On its own, X-2 doesn't live up to the standard set by the other games. But then, I don't feel it was ever meant to. It's an extra chapter to the FFX story; a coda about Yuna and the future of Spira. They could've made another vast adventure as big as the original FFX, exploring all the characters and their journeys, but there would've been a real risk of that feeling tedious and hopelessly contrived after a while.

Out of these two, I'd still say that FFVIII receives the most unreasonable criticism. X-2, despite what I consider its strengths, has plenty of grounds for criticism, especially in contrast to the other games in the FF series.

In my opinion, FFVIII is a game you need to play more than one time to fully understand the story. But for some reason most people didn't do it, and the game is underrated because of that.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

In my opinion, FFVIII is a game you need to play more than one time to fully understand the story. But for some reason most people didn't do it, and the game is underrated because of that.

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I agree wholeheartedly. My first three attempts ended with me unfinishing the game after being completely turned off from it. Only in the last year-year+1/2 have I come to appreciate it as a masterpiece it is to me.