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Now that I have gurenteed almost everyone FFVI and VII fan will read this in hopes of squabbling with each other, I can now continue :D
Which FF Villain do you think is the most dag, nasty EVIL! :eek:
This has nothing to do with how much they accomplished, but how much they really satisfied the definition of evil (Definition of Evil).
EDIT: When a Mod sees this can you please add Seymour to the poll I think he deserves his own option.
EDIT2: I'm totally voting Seymour when they add that.
*raises pinky to lips*
Garland - Betrays his kingdom, locks himself with time loop, and is the Demon Lord Chaos. Seems pretty evil, but nothing special.
The Emperor - Power Hungry dictator. Seems pretty evil to me, but still nothing noteworthy.
Cloud of Darkness - I have no Idea.
Zemus - Basically a racist who is overcome with hate. A being of pure hate is pretty cool and evil though.
Ex-Death - A pissed off tree. And vengeful to boot.
Kefka - While very evil, he seems crazier then evil to me. I mean, I don't think anything he did was predetermined in the slightests. The statue thing probably went like this in his mind, "I wonder if something will go boom if I touch this?"
Sephiroth - Wants to do what Jenova wanted. I mean sure, using the planet as a vessel to travel to and destroy other planets is pretty evil and what not, but it wasn't even his Idea originally.
Ultimecia - She wanted to rule everything at once. Power Hungry Dictator wannabe.
Kuja - He was created as an angel of death, tried to get rid of his replacement, and turned on his master. Seems like a spoiled, Jealous older brother. And he acts out of fear of his own mortality. Not so much evil, as basic human nature right there.
Yu-yevon - Um, I don't know. I can't even remember why this guy did anything he did.
Shuyin - Anything X-2 related is to stupid to be evil.
Vayne - Can't comment.
Dr. Evil - He turned good in three though, so he isn't evil anymore.
In short, for truly evil villians, find a different game series.
I vote kefka because I like him.
Though it's probably more along the lines of Zeromus, you know, being hatred incarnate and what not.
Anyone who says kefka is wrong because kefka is god and everything he does is right and everyone else who opposes him is evil!!!!!
While Kuja's motivations are reactions to the discovery of his own mortality and limited usefulness, I'm not willing to write that off as an excuse for his actions. Kuja definitely acts out of desperation and selfishness, and, for this, he is not undeserving of pity. However, although can justify his actions more fully than other villains in the series, I don't believe this makes him any less evil.
As far as I'm concerned, the most evil part of Kuja is that he is completely aware of the consequences of his actions. He's not bat:skull::skull::skull::skull: insane. He's not acting out because of false information. Kuja is fueling a war to ultimately destroy all life on a planet--then he goes a step further and tries to erase all existence. Yeah, it's selfish that he believes that if he can't live then no others should either, but that doesn't make it any less evil.
I'm down for Kuja.
NeoCracker has convinced me not to vote in this poll.
Wow, my post has actually made a difference.
I feel special.
How does Ultimecia have a vote, but no one listed?
I voted Ultimecia~
Final Fantasy has had great villains, but I feel Kefka was the greatest. He was simply a human who then went drunk with power and then destroyed the world. 'Nuff said.
I voted Kefka, though there's a few others up there that I did like, but crazy anarchists are just rarely played so I had to pick him. Plus he was the first FF villain who was just a guy, and remained that way. No supernatural powers to become a demon (Chaos, Emperor) or some sort of being from another world or of another race (Zande, Zemus) but just a normal human who found power.
As for other villains on that list. I kind of liked Garland. While not played so much in the game, he had a classic demon like villain going towards the end, achieving a lot of power to become Chaos.
Zemus was another great villain I thought. Although he appears late, I liked how he was introduced. It began that you saw signs that someone was above Golbez, until finally you learn that Zemus was a being from the moon, who thought himself god compared to people from Earth, and wished to wipe out humans so he can create his ideal world. He wasn't a god, but had a god-complex going.
Sephiroth was ok, not the greatest of villains. I never really liked how he got portrayed in the game. He just had an air of "I'm so cool" flashed a pose and did something flashy, then made you fight a chunk of Jenova. Though I'm somewhat bias, I hated his character design, I'm no fan of Nomura's work, but of all of 7's character designs Sephiroth was among my 2 least favorites. The whole Sephiroth villain was a good premise I thought. A person born of a scientific experiment who finds out his existence and decides to just destroy the world. I liked the premise, but not the execution.
Other notable villains I liked were some of XI's, but I'll spare people my thoughts on all of the numerous ones in the game.
Time compressionQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Fix'dQuote:
Originally Posted by blackmage_nukeTime kompressionQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Seymour
He wanted to kill everyone.
ex-death just wanted to send everything to the n-zone. that's pretty mean I think. or evil rather xD Better to live under a tyrant you can one day overcome than to be sent into nonexistence and never live again :O
I vote Kuja just to smite all you people who are going to potentially fight over Kefka and Sephiroth. =)
Yeah, SOOOO the epitome of evil.
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/7009/31149zd6.jpg
FFV's final dungeon shows that it's possible to survive in the Void without necessarily getting absorbed into nothingness. And considering nearly every other villain wants to annihilate humanity outright, mere banishment seems like a bargain.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubah
Man I wanna say she's hot, but for the love of god that's Kuja. I've never been this split before. :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaCloudStrife
Oh, there is no split in my mind. I'd go for that slice of evil any day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000XMan I wanna say she's hot, but for the love of god that's Kuja. I've never been this split before. :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by MistaCloudStrife
Kefka. He's so evil he even killed the grass!
Vayne killed his own brothers and possibly his father. That's pretty damn evil.
Kefka > Sephiroth.
Kefka is evil cuz Sephitroth is just insane, not really evil.
Kefka is much more insane than Sephiroth. :P
Indeed. I mean really, the entire premise of Kefka is that he is insane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Cid even tells you when he went insane.
He was a giant tick. A great premise for an excellent villain. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Kefka is preety damn evil, id have to say on ties with sephi though since kefka's plans didnt exceed the plantet itself unlike sephiroth who wanted to destroy the cosmos.. geez..
i voted ulti cause she wanted to compress time where no one could live and then we'd all be screwed..
Whoaa, Bolivarr!! just read ur thing on vayne.. that rings a bell and he didnt even regret it at all.. Plus he was going to change the history of mankind.. Yep yep, vaynes up ther fellas
Edit by Kishi: Don't double-post.
I think anyone who votes for Vayne has missed the point of Final Fantasy XII entirely.
What he said. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Me? I voted Kefka. For most villans, the suffering they caused was a means to an end. With Kefka, it's an end in and of itself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyara
I think the general consensus here seems to be that Kefka was more insane than evil, though I'd certainly say he was a bit of both. Certainly more insane than evil, though the actions that his insanity drove him to, such as poisoning the water supply of Doma would certainly qualify as evil in my book.
I was initially going to vote for Kuja in this poll because I've always considered him amongst the most competent and evil of the villains but having read NeoCracker's analysis, I've had second thoughts. Although he certainly acted in his own interests and in an attempt to preserve what he had which is very indicative of human nature really, I think the fact that he was willing to use anybody or anything to achieve his selfish goals would count as selfish.
As it is, however, I can't think. Kefka, Kuja or Palamecia? I think the obvious solution is just put off voting for now!
Don't get me wrong people, these villains are all definitely evil.
Its just that a lot of FF Villians have so much more about them then just Evil. I mean if you want someone truly evil, why not go for Tira of Soul Caliber? She seems pretty damn evil.
She has no ultimate Goal, she's a Sadist, and she's not clinically insane.
I know it's trendy to praise XII on how it dealt with morality. "It's so creative! There is no black & white!"Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyaraWhat he said. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Me? I voted Kefka. For most villans, the suffering they caused was a means to an end. With Kefka, it's an end in and of itself.
If that was actually the intention of the game, then it failed. There are definately characters who are good and those who are evil. Vayne claims to be working for the good of Archadia and Ivalice, but anyone who plays the game understands it was out of pure ambition. Pride is the most serious of the 7 deadly sins.
I can't agree with that. You can look at what Vayne did as "meaning good", he just decided to take the ends justifies the means approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarI know it's trendy to praise XII on how it dealt with morality. "It's so creative! There is no black & white!"Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyaraWhat he said. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Me? I voted Kefka. For most villans, the suffering they caused was a means to an end. With Kefka, it's an end in and of itself.
If that was actually the intention of the game, then it failed. There are definately characters who are good and those who are evil. Vayne claims to be working for the good of Archadia and Ivalice, but anyone who plays the game understands it was out of pure ambition. Pride is the most serious of the 7 deadly sins.
Yeah, really. Did you actually play XII Bolivar? Yeah, some characters are definitely good and some are definitely not, but Vayne certainly isn't one of them. He thinks he's doing the right thing. Even the Occuria knew it wasn't purely out of ambition.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoI can't agree with that. You can look at what Vayne did as "meaning good", he just decided to take the ends justifies the means approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarI know it's trendy to praise XII on how it dealt with morality. "It's so creative! There is no black & white!"Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyaraWhat he said. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Me? I voted Kefka. For most villans, the suffering they caused was a means to an end. With Kefka, it's an end in and of itself.
If that was actually the intention of the game, then it failed. There are definately characters who are good and those who are evil. Vayne claims to be working for the good of Archadia and Ivalice, but anyone who plays the game understands it was out of pure ambition. Pride is the most serious of the 7 deadly sins.
She wanted to have control over time, and by consequence, over her own fate. Everything Ulti did, was because she didn't want to die by the hands of the legendary SeeD. That was her fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
From what I remember, he was just like a "machine", doing what he was "programed" to do. He didn't have any consience of his own actions.Quote:
Yu-yevon - Um, I don't know. I can't even remember why this guy did anything he did.
If she didn't wanna dies she could just not killed everyone :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalShe wanted to have control over time, and by consequence, over her own fate. Everything Ulti did, was because she didn't want to die by the hands of the legendary SeeD. That was her fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Ulti didn't strike me as the most evil though. She just kinda made me laugh.
If she didn't "kill everyone" then they would have killed her. Remember she was born in a world who hated her kind(sorceresses) and probably already hated her(because of everything she did in the past/during FFVIII).Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Wait a tic. The only reason the party discovered her was because she influenced the past right?Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalIf she didn't "kill everyone" then they would have killed her. Remember she was born in a world who hated her kind(sorceresses) and probably already hated her(because of everything she did in the past/during FFVIII).Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
I'm confused then. She wanted to control time, to stop herself from getting killed, but the only reason she was killed was because she tried to control time?
From what I understood, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Seymour, he killed his daddy when he was a little boy, he tried to murder his wife and even when he was killed he was so evil that he came back to life in three hideous forms, bent on becoming the next sin so he could destory the planet, now that's evil.
Welcome to Final Fantasy VIII. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
xDDD
HE -DID- KILL THE GRASS!
This thread makes me happy.
Actually, that was a story barrier between the two. The outside knowledge of the "cosmos" or something greater than the planet they were on and the esper world was unknown, so to them the world itself (and the esper world tied to it) was the "cosmos" itself. Towards the end, (like the final battle) Kefka decides that he wants to make a monument to non-existance. Of course you can't have a non-existing monument, but I guess a big void is monumental enough for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Last Oath
So without the "cosmos" actually being in "outer space" or something more than what they know, it actually equals Sephiroth's want to destroy the cosmos. The FF7 world had knowledge of what was beyond their planet, The FF6 world did not, so the term "cosmos" or everything that exists (in which cosmo's is normally taken) basically equals the planet.
Anyways, I voted Kefka.
Obviously.
To make it worse, didn't at some point in the game it was stated Ulti already killed Seed in her time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Welcome to Final Fantasy VIII. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
I don't understand the point of your post? Playing as a specific main character, you always have the ability to beat every bad villain in each FF game, including Ulti and even Kefka, regardless of fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Yu Yevon is quite evil, it was very untouchable. I think it has killed a lot of people more than any other villians did.
But he wasn't actually evil. He was just doing what he was programmed to do, like a robot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
The point of my post was to clarify Ultimecia's motive for doing everything she did. She was fighting against her own fate. She wasn't just an evil bitch trying to rule everything at once without any reason at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
He didn't have conscience of his own actions. He was doing what he had to do, without any free will. Like a machine.Quote:
Yu Yevon is quite evil, it was very untouchable. I think it has killed a lot of people more than any other villians did.
No he wasn't. He had no motive, he existed solely to summon and that was it. It just happened to be his summon liked to kill and destroy. But all Yu Yevon did was be a large flying tick who summoned over and over for all of eternity and then graviga his own ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
i would pick zemus. not only did he manipulate people using them for self gain and to kill others but he was so evil and had so much hate that even after hes dead he had so much hate in him that i tall couldnt die and formed zeromus instantly after being released through death...id say thats pretty evil. I didnt really think about the others though so maybe someone can top that but Zemus has my vote
I think you both missed the entire point of my post. It's made obvious that Vayne doesn't care about what's best for Ivalice or even Archades. It is out of pure ambition to be a new Dynast King which surpasses the old. "Too long have my deeds gone unrewarded" - he is acting out of selfish ambition. And Venat reveals at the end that she deceived him to end "the age of Stones", so I'm not sure where you get "even the occuria knew it wasn't purely out of ambition." It obviously was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Yeah, really. Did you actually play XII Bolivar? Yeah, some characters are definitely good and some are definitely not, but Vayne certainly isn't one of them. He thinks he's doing the right thing. Even the Occuria knew it wasn't purely out of ambition.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoI can't agree with that. You can look at what Vayne did as "meaning good", he just decided to take the ends justifies the means approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarI know it's trendy to praise XII on how it dealt with morality. "It's so creative! There is no black & white!"Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyaraWhat he said. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Me? I voted Kefka. For most villans, the suffering they caused was a means to an end. With Kefka, it's an end in and of itself.
If that was actually the intention of the game, then it failed. There are definately characters who are good and those who are evil. Vayne claims to be working for the good of Archadia and Ivalice, but anyone who plays the game understands it was out of pure ambition. Pride is the most serious of the 7 deadly sins.
Not to mention the fact that if you believe that a character isn't evil because they believe they're doing the right thing, then you would have to take nearly everyone off of the list. So even if you were right in your interpretation of Vayne (I think the game makes it clear otherwise), it would in no way exclude him from the list.
Yu Yevon is the main source of all of those attacks, though. If Yu Yevon didn't exist, the world of FFX would be so much a safer place (much less death from the attacks), I don't see how it's not evil?
Is the gun evil?Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
YY controls it, so technically yes.
YU YEVON CONTROLS A GUN!?!?!
lol
No no your missing the point. By this time Yu Yevon has no control over himself. If you program a robot to kill everything is the robot evil? No.
I didn't know it was a he.
Technically, if the machine killed people (would machine keep shooting if YY didn't exist?), then it's an evil thing. I don't know any better word to replace "evil".
YY doesn't need a motive, or whatever, but he was a definitely accessory to all of the murders. YY wins this thread if it killed more people than other villians.
I don't even recall them mentioning if Yu Yevon controlled Sin or not. I'd assume not seeing as it's a floating tick, and I would honestly be amazed if it was capable of sentient thought, let alone deciding to cause mass destruction through another living thing.
Really in the end Yu Yevon just sucked as a villain cause they never explained him or had him do anything except the back story through brining Sin back every time they beat him up.
Something that has no control over its actions, such as gun, or YY in this case, can't be considered evil.
An object such as gun is only considered evil if it's in the hands of an evil person. I doubt you'd say guns are evil when they are in the hands of good people, such as the police.
This thread has nothing to do with accomplishment and everything to do with motive (motive helps determine evil most), Yu Yevon had no motive because he had no setimental thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
Characters like Kefka and Kuja never made any claims to be doing the right thing for anyone but themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarI think you both missed the entire point of my post. It's made obvious that Vayne doesn't care about what's best for Ivalice or even Archades. It is out of pure ambition to be a new Dynast King which surpasses the old. "Too long have my deeds gone unrewarded" - he is acting out of selfish ambition. And Venat reveals at the end that she deceived him to end "the age of Stones", so I'm not sure where you get "even the occuria knew it wasn't purely out of ambition." It obviously was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Yeah, really. Did you actually play XII Bolivar? Yeah, some characters are definitely good and some are definitely not, but Vayne certainly isn't one of them. He thinks he's doing the right thing. Even the Occuria knew it wasn't purely out of ambition.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoI can't agree with that. You can look at what Vayne did as "meaning good", he just decided to take the ends justifies the means approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarI know it's trendy to praise XII on how it dealt with morality. "It's so creative! There is no black & white!"Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkLadyNyaraWhat he said. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Me? I voted Kefka. For most villans, the suffering they caused was a means to an end. With Kefka, it's an end in and of itself.
If that was actually the intention of the game, then it failed. There are definately characters who are good and those who are evil. Vayne claims to be working for the good of Archadia and Ivalice, but anyone who plays the game understands it was out of pure ambition. Pride is the most serious of the 7 deadly sins.
Not to mention the fact that if you believe that a character isn't evil because they believe they're doing the right thing, then you would have to take nearly everyone off of the list. So even if you were right in your interpretation of Vayne (I think the game makes it clear otherwise), it would in no way exclude him from the list.
I don't know why you think Vayne can't be doing things for himself AND for the world. Even the way you describe him, he's more like someone who's doing what he believes is right in such a way as to benefit himself and be kind of a jerk at the same time. Face it. He's easily the least evil person on the list, if only because he never wanted to destroy the world.
I'm sure whoever created YY must have had a motive then. I see, from the game, YY has no personality, so I don't know what it had to say about everything, but most things it has killed, it's an evil thing to do. If YY has no motive, it doesn't make itself not evil to help Sin killing people. You are misunderstanding my term of "evil", I just mean it's like not a good thing >_>Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoThis thread has nothing to do with accomplishment and everything to do with motive (motive helps determine evil most), Yu Yevon had no motive because he had no setimental thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
Eh. The term "evil" is relative to the user. People of naturally good morals would find anything of villianous nature to be evil regardless if they have mental capabilities of undertanding wether or not their goals are evil or not. Many serial killers in our world are -clearly- out of their mental barriers therefore not even themselves in philosophical terms, but because of the things they did, we still consider them evil. Even if it was because they went out of their mentality for a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by SerapyI'm sure whoever created YY must have had a motive then. I see, from the game, YY has no personality, so I don't know what it had to say about everything, but most things it has killed, it's an evil thing to do. If YY has no motive, it doesn't make itself not evil to help Sin killing people. You are misunderstanding my term of "evil", I just mean it's like not a good thing >_>Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoThis thread has nothing to do with accomplishment and everything to do with motive (motive helps determine evil most), Yu Yevon had no motive because he had no setimental thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
Obviously YY could not consider himself to be evil, but he's not the one that even has to chose. Being "evil" or "good" is judged by the people around, not by the person or thing itself. Kefka had a cult and some people who were actually thankful for his world take over (The man who runs the colloseum), the only reason that they veiwed him as "good" and where thankful was because their mentality was skewed as well. Before the Kefka took over the world, you were able to talk to him (The colloseum man), and basically he'd say how people said he was crazy because of what he wanted, but when Kefka took over the world no one seemed to mind.
Anyways, I thought this thread was about Acomplishment. Because you can have all the motive in the world and still be a crappy bad guy, it's what you get accomplished and have physical proof of that matters.
Hence the title, Kefka's so evil he even killed the GRASS!
Because he did kill the grass.
Kefka for sure. I'm sure you can class his insanity as evil. And what other bad guy was as thorough? He DID kill the grass and all.
Kefka's accomplishments are arbitrary compared to the reasons (or lack there of) he tried to accomplish them in the first place. Killing lots of people was just a vehicle for portraying how evil he was.
As previously noted, Kefka is the most evil villain because he kills for the pure joy of killing, rather then killing for a purpose. Any villain could have killed far more people and devastated far more worlds without being as evil if they had done so for a concrete reason.
As the biggest Kefka fan to ever live.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karellen
I don't really consider him as evil as much as insane though. I mean if I went around and killed lots of people due to my insanity, people would say "that persons crazy" "that persons insane" not "that persons evil".
Then again, I believe that there are people who find that killing other humans as a method for entertainment and get the pure joy out of it. I don't consider them evil, more power to them for finding their joy in life.
And no, Kefka's purpose doesn't come into WORDS until the final battle but in hindsight, Kefka does have a purpose. Kefka believes that all life is meaningless thus he must exterminate it. Anything having to do with life, love, happiness, he wants crushed because he believes it has no meaning because it will all be destroyed in time. People die, People lose love, People will lose happiness at times. People give things meanings, and they don't know what to do when the meanings are lost, therefore, it has no point. If it has no point, he wants it to be dead.
The towns he put his light of judgment on were towns that disobey'd him. The second someone turned against them, their point was lost, they were not loyal so they died. Once Kefka was able to use Ghestal to get into power, he killed Ghestal, Ghestal no longer had a reason to live. Leo was meddlesome, annoying, and a bug to Kefka, thus serving no point because Kefka knew he'd have ultimate power, thus losing the point to live, leo dies. The planets gonna die anyway, so might as well take it over before everyone dies too, Kefka takes over planet.
This is another reason that Kefka in lore is "The angel of death" or the epitome of a backwards fall of satan (See final battle map), The angel of death comes to people or places when the people or places have basically exhausted their reasons or points of existance, then takes them to their respective places. Unlike the angel of death, Kefka choses when the people have exhuasted their reasons, then kills them in a violent fashion.
But then again, because Kefka is able to do all this in a semi-tactful way, it would show he had the mental capabiliites to plan and to know what he was doing, but that doesn't mean that he didn't find everything he was doing to be correct, because he did. Insane by our terms, clearly sane by his own. In fact, we're the crazy one's for thinking we have a reason to live, or that we will be happy in life.
I don't consider his reasons to be evil though, there are many people currently alive that have the veiw that everyone is pointless and should die, and everything will wither in time, the only difference is, some people act on it some don't. Thus we get the killers and such who believe they are perfectly sane and they were doing the killing, not because they were evil, because what the killed had no purpose.
Most people say that his motives changed in the last battle, that he just decided that he wanted everything to be destroyed because it was going to happen anyways, infact, everything he had done previously in the game was justified or finally given reason, in the final battle.
If that's true, why he didn't kill everyone the second after acquiring the power of the statues? Why permit everyone to live during a whole year?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. the first and second sentences here don't seem to make much sense. And if there was a set most evil to least evil, there wouldn't even be a poll. If you feel otherwise maybe you shouldn't participate in the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Congratulations. You're illiterate.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarI'm not sure what you're trying to say. the first and second sentences here don't seem to make much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Um... okay.... I thought Del murder already warned you about personal insults in the other thread? well:Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Congratulations. You're illiterate.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarI'm not sure what you're trying to say. the first and second sentences here don't seem to make much sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
1) Your first sentence is nonsensical in that it would be pretty rare for a villain to encompass both qualities at the same time. A selfish idealist is an oxymoron.
2) he does something he believes is right in such a way that it benefits himself, and be kind of a jerk at the same time?
^ I'm sorry, I'm just lost with this one. So he's doing the things he does because he wants to be kind of a jerk? In addition to it benefitting himself? But he believes that it's right? ...
See that's the entire point of Final Fantasy XII. Yeah, he's not a great human being but he is doing something that he, and a lot of players, see as the right thing. Yes, there's something for him to gain. I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand that people can have multiple motives for doing something. It's only oxymoronic if you're incapable of seeing things in gray.
Because his downfall was his god powers. He ended up believing his own imortality after becoming a god, so he decided to rule the striken world before attempting to destroy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalIf that's true, why he didn't kill everyone the second after acquiring the power of the statues? Why permit everyone to live during a whole year?Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-ness
In the Imperial Base shortly before the Doma incident, Leo tells Kefka to not act rash because they're people too and what not, stressing to him to not act rash. That would imply Kefka had most likely killed without caring before. Obviously shortly after Leo's gone, Kefka's already down poisoning Doma.
After he becomes a god, his rashness goes down extremely. Clearly he's able to know the going on's of everyone in the world, being able to keep them in line via fear and his light of judgement. Clearly after became a god he became more organized, because he truly believed he was god, therefore he could do what ever he wanted with the people within his own terms at that point.
Basically power was his own downfall, because he could have easily have killed everything on his own will if he chose too. But after gaining the power, the once quick-acting kefka had gone and a more domniating kefka had taken place, which caused him to do more than just aimlessly kill. Like I said earlier he kept track of everyone on the planet to make sure their doings were right for him, the quick-acting Kefka would have most likely have just destroyed the world without thinking of the possiblities he could do while OWNING the world.
Then again, the fact he was a villian in a final fantasy means he couldn't actually be the victor in the game since Final Fantasy's main thing entails good over evil even if it gets hard.
Um, he wasn't so rash anymore?
Molbez: WE don't want you to rule us.
Kefka: You go Boom now!
Molbez: X_X
1) If someone believing that what they're doing is right excludes them from being evil then Osama bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Dr. Mengele, etc. etc. etc. aren't evil either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
2) It's solidly established, multiple times in the game, that Vayne is a power-hungry and manipulative person. Everyone around him attests to that (and strives to stop him), except for Cid, who is exploiting him to continue his discoveries, and Venat, who is exploiting him to end The Age of Stones.
Play the game again.
Maybe you should play the game again. This time realizing that everything isn't always broken up between good and bad. Yeah, he's power hungry. Yeah, he's manipulative. He also wants to accomplish something to benefit mankind. He's not even trying to rule or destroy the world. He wants to rule one small part of it. And not even as a cruel dictator. Remember the people of Rabanastre cheering for him? He must be doing something right.
You're so closed minded.
LOL once again you end a response with an insult. Of course much of the cast reflects the grey area - Azelas may be the epitome of it. Every Matsuno game puts the majority of its characters in it, but in every one, there are a few characters who are good and evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
I find it hilarious that you still insist that Vayne genuinely wanted to benefit mankind. It's bad enough that the people he was trying to rule wanted to stop him, but everyone from his allies (Bhujerba) to his top-ranking commanders (the judge magisters) to even the members of his own family wanted him stopped. As I already said, the only ones who stood by him were Cid and Venat, who both exploited him to achieve their own ends, and Bergen, who was obviously a bloodlusted maniac.
Yet you refuse to confront these facts to continue to insult me, as you do with everyone else I see you disagree with. C'mon now.
Ugh. It's like talking to a brick wall.
Whatever. Everyone else in the entire world who has played Final Fantasy XII gets it but you.
Honestly, if it wasn't blatantly obvious from playing the game, I don't think there's anyway to keep it from soaring right over your head.
I'll bold out all the arguments you made that don't really prove he is evil one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarLOL once again you end a response with an insult. Of course much of the cast reflects the grey area - Azelas may be the epitome of it. Every Matsuno game puts the majority of its characters in it, but in every one, there are a few characters who are good and evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
I find it hilarious that you still insist that Vayne genuinely wanted to benefit mankind. It's bad enough that the people he was trying to rule wanted to stop him, but everyone from his allies (Bhujerba) to his top-ranking commanders (the judge magisters) to even the members of his own family wanted him stopped. As I already said, the only ones who stood by him were Cid and Venat, who both exploited him to achieve their own ends, and Bergen, who was obviously a bloodlusted maniac.
Yet you refuse to confront these facts to continue to insult me, as you do with everyone else I see you disagree with. C'mon now.
People disagreeing with him or going against him hardly mean anything.
Also, he is using evil people to accomplish a good end. Just a method of "The Ends Justify the Means". In some games, even the good guys try to use things precieved as evil to stop the greater evil.
And now, I shall referance X (Bum Bum Bum!!!) to showcase Vayne is not evil.
Look at the Albed. They used something considered evil by the rest of the world to try and stop Sin, along with the help of a few of those non-Albed Crusaders.
For going against their beliefs in Yevon, (Which they believed to be good), are they evil? No, but they used something the convieved as evil in order to stop Sin.
The old Kefka would just randomly pick towns to destroy, whereas the godkefka would wait til someone pissed him off.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Kefka is crazy and power hungry, not random.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avarice-nessThe old Kefka would just randomly pick towns to destroy, whereas the godkefka would wait til someone pissed him off.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Killing off Doma with Poison? Doma was the enemy, and it's where he was stationed.
Killing Leo? Leo was very just, and would have gotten in Kefka and the emperors way after learning their plan.
Frying Molbez along with them? Probably the most random, but Kefka still had purposes for being their.
Not much Kefka did in FF VI was Random, not even the statue thing.
He saw an opprotunity to obtain greater power, and when Ghestal tried to stop him, he killed him.
Most of the things kefka did had some sort of reasoning behind it.
So I don't think he would randomly pick towns.
When you're the only person who believes what you're doing is right, and no one else agrees with you - not even your own family - there's a pretty good chance you're doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCrackerI'll bold out all the arguments you made that don't really prove he is evil one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarLOL once again you end a response with an insult. Of course much of the cast reflects the grey area - Azelas may be the epitome of it. Every Matsuno game puts the majority of its characters in it, but in every one, there are a few characters who are good and evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
I find it hilarious that you still insist that Vayne genuinely wanted to benefit mankind. It's bad enough that the people he was trying to rule wanted to stop him, but everyone from his allies (Bhujerba) to his top-ranking commanders (the judge magisters) to even the members of his own family wanted him stopped. As I already said, the only ones who stood by him were Cid and Venat, who both exploited him to achieve their own ends, and Bergen, who was obviously a bloodlusted maniac.
Yet you refuse to confront these facts to continue to insult me, as you do with everyone else I see you disagree with. C'mon now.
People disagreeing with him or going against him hardly mean anything.
Also, he is using evil people to accomplish a good end. Just a method of "The Ends Justify the Means". In some games, even the good guys try to use things precieved as evil to stop the greater evil.
And now, I shall referance X (Bum Bum Bum!!!) to showcase Vayne is not evil.
Look at the Albed. They used something considered evil by the rest of the world to try and stop Sin, along with the help of a few of those non-Albed Crusaders.
For going against their beliefs in Yevon, (Which they believed to be good), are they evil? No, but they used something the convieved as evil in order to stop Sin.
The Al Bhed reference is irrelevant - it was a massive stain on the world that everyone wanted to get rid of. What was Vayne doing that was apart of the population's consensus? What was the greater evil he was trying to stop? What was the greater good he was trying to accomplish? Most importantly - at what point in the game does he actually claim this, in a way that isn't obviously perceived as outright manipulation. He was causing war, not ending it.
I've stated my case, and Roto's refusal to actually respond to my evidence shows that it's pretty much useless now. If anyone else disagrees answer this(which I say again): Hitler, Mussolini, Dr. Mengele, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, all believe they were (are) doing what is right for the greater good.
I'm more illiterate than Bolivar :P
I guess I sort of have a bit different ground of morals, that's why I have a different view about the "evil" term. Killing is killing, hench evil. But I suppose killing without a purpose is more evil, in that case, Kefka.
The point of the Reference is they were trying to make a change to better the world. That was it. Same thing with Vayne.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarWhen you're the only person who believes what you're doing is right, and no one else agrees with you - not even your own family - there's a pretty good chance you're doing something wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCrackerI'll bold out all the arguments you made that don't really prove he is evil one way or another.Quote:
Originally Posted by BolivarLOL once again you end a response with an insult. Of course much of the cast reflects the grey area - Azelas may be the epitome of it. Every Matsuno game puts the majority of its characters in it, but in every one, there are a few characters who are good and evil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
I find it hilarious that you still insist that Vayne genuinely wanted to benefit mankind. It's bad enough that the people he was trying to rule wanted to stop him, but everyone from his allies (Bhujerba) to his top-ranking commanders (the judge magisters) to even the members of his own family wanted him stopped. As I already said, the only ones who stood by him were Cid and Venat, who both exploited him to achieve their own ends, and Bergen, who was obviously a bloodlusted maniac.
Yet you refuse to confront these facts to continue to insult me, as you do with everyone else I see you disagree with. C'mon now.
People disagreeing with him or going against him hardly mean anything.
Also, he is using evil people to accomplish a good end. Just a method of "The Ends Justify the Means". In some games, even the good guys try to use things precieved as evil to stop the greater evil.
And now, I shall referance X (Bum Bum Bum!!!) to showcase Vayne is not evil.
Look at the Albed. They used something considered evil by the rest of the world to try and stop Sin, along with the help of a few of those non-Albed Crusaders.
For going against their beliefs in Yevon, (Which they believed to be good), are they evil? No, but they used something the convieved as evil in order to stop Sin.
The Al Bhed reference is irrelevant - it was a massive stain on the world that everyone wanted to get rid of. What was Vayne doing that was apart of the population's consensus? What was the greater evil he was trying to stop? What was the greater good he was trying to accomplish? Most importantly - at what point in the game does he actually claim this, in a way that isn't obviously perceived as outright manipulation. He was causing war, not ending it.
I've stated my case, and Roto's refusal to actually respond to my evidence shows that it's pretty much useless now. If anyone else disagrees answer this(which I say again): Hitler, Mussolini, Dr. Mengele, Stalin, Osama bin Laden, all believe they were (are) doing what is right for the greater good.
How many of these other FF Villians had any kind of world improvement motive?
Vayne is the only one that comes to mind wanting to do it to accomplish something.
Maybe its not exactly removing a hated stain from all existance, but that is still the point. He's doing it for the greater good.
1) There is no evidence in the game to suggest that Vayne honestly wants to change the world for the better. Every character in the game sees through this as a facade for his quest for power - the judge magisters in the scene in the halls of Archades, his own father when talking to Gabranth, Bergen admires him for it, and Venat and Cid would not have manipulated him if he did not possess this quality above others.
2) Even if you could find deleted scenes which prove that he does believe in it - it does not make murdering his 2 older brothers to become successor any less evil. Nor would it make poisoning his father any less evil. Or ordering the murder of the head of Ivalice's religion and the slaughtering countless innocent refugees. Nor would it make ordering an entire city to be wiped out, or endangering countless more innocents than you have already killed with a final battle.
No righteous attitude can make the causing of mass suffering any less evil. Our own history has attested to this many times throughout. This is also the main theme of the game - the conclusion which the protagonists come to at the end.
I have continuously cited evidence from the game in my posts, and have yet to see any from anyone who disagrees. If you still do, I will respect your opinion, I only hope that you can respect mine. If anyone cites evidence from the game, I will gladly look at their arguments and even concede if a better one is established.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolivar
The last words between Vayne and Venat.
That doesn't sound like the words of a dying man who wanted to fulfill his ambitions. That sounds like the words of someone apologizing for failing a friend. That alone makes him far less evil then Kefka, Sephiroth, or Kuja who cared for no one else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Game Script
1. How many people actually knew what he was doing? How many people actually KNEW about Venat in the first place?
2. Of course bad things are made less bad by good intentions! You're so stuck on this whole "war is bad" thing that you can't see that sometimes it's necessary and the people causing the war aren't necessarily horrible people for it. Lincoln could have avoided the Civil War by not trying to stop the spread of slavery. Does that make him evil? Of course not. He hated slavery and wanted to end it, and the war was the result.
Building on what Roto just said, I'd like to say a famous quote "War isn't about who's right but who's left." If the south won the civil war and some how took over the north, Lincoln would've been considered "Evil." Vayne lost his war, so he was considered evil.
I'd just like to point out something here-Vayne killed his brothers on his father's orders. So, yeah, that doesn't really fly as a "Vayne is irredemably evil" arguement.Quote:
it does not make murdering his 2 older brothers to become successor any less evil.
I wish I could vote for Queen Zeal.:(
Oh seriously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Acula
That or the "Queen of Reason" AKA Valda, the Queen of Altena from Seiken Densetsu 3.
In a way, they're kind of same in their cold methods. 'Cept Valda thought it'd be more fun to start to invade every group possible.
Dr. Evil
I've only beaten FFIV out of the pre-FFVII games, and I don't remember it well, so I have no comment on those villains :p
Sephiroth - Just a mamma's boy who wanted to help mommy.
Ultimecia - WOOOORLD DOMINATION!!!! I WILL RULE THE WORLD!!! I KOME FROM THE FUTURE WHERE WE DO NOT LIKE THE LETTER C!!!!
Kuja - I...can't seem to remember his goal...I beat FFIX once...I'm replaying it again, but I don't remember!
Seymour - He wanted to help Spira by killing everyone! He's helping! Not evil! A little power-hungry, though.
Yu-Yevon - I'd have liked to learn a little more about him. Like how he got to be who he was. Looked to me like he wasn't really aware of what he was doing, maybe I'm wrong though.
Shuyin - Aww....Shoe isn't evil...he's in lurve!
Vayne - I forget about him, too xD
So out of the villains I remember well (meaning the Final Fantasies that I played at least seven times), I'd say Ulty.
C IS FOR COOKIE. IMAGINE A WORLD WITHOUT IT!
Kookie? :monster:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
Ultimecia don't have any type of accent in the original version. The translators just fuc*ed up.
Kuja's goal for most of the game, was to kill Garland and replace him as the ruler of Terra and Gaia.
And no, Sephiroth didn't want to help Jenova.
Okay fine. Can I go back to crying about my c-less cookies now?
I don't like to see people cry. Here... *gives you a cookie*Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
I've never actually played VI, but reading that thread "Which villain would you want to succeed (survive)?" I have to say that Kefka is by far the only real evil that Final Fantasy heroes have ever faced.
Anarchy brings chaos. Chaos is illogical, variant, and unpredictable. That which isn't known is frightening. Like animals, frightened humans cause more chaos unto themselves.
Evil to me is the will and desire to bring harm to others just to watch them suffer. Harm doesn't necessarily have to be physical either. It could be emotional (sadness) or psychological (doubt) as well. Evil is treating living beings like dominoes and affecting the chain that causes them to knock each other over.
That's what you get for asking who IS evil. It would have been a much harder call if you asked who did the most evil things (or planned to).
This is a difficult question to ask considering you need to use motive and evil deeds to back up your reasoning... If we're asking who is truly evil then only one villain technically fulfills that and its Ex-Death from V.
Considering he's a sacred tree corrupted by evil human magic sealed within him; he's the only villain in the series that can be said his personality is truly evil cause its all he's ever been and known. As villains go, he lacks any real motive. He's evil cause he is evil.
Chaos fought for destiny and revenge
Palamecian Emperor fought for personal glory and power
Xande feared death and the Cloud of Darkness is a force of nature and beyond morality
Zemus was a racist but little is known of his other traits and status but it could be speculated that he was noble to his own kind before they sealed him away for suggesting genocide. Zeromus is an incarnation of Zemus' hatred and is the only other villain I might consider but then again from his perspective he was betrayed by all...
Kefka was driven insaned by experiments done to him but it doesn't change the fact he's the series only sociopath... I'll get to this later...
Sephiroth is driven insane by the truth and eventually gets it in his head that becoming a god is his birthright cause he's trying to fulfill the nature of Jenova that exists in his genes. Even then, his acts of cruelty are done more out of necessity than personal malice. Granted this changed when KH and AC came out but KH Sephiroth is not canon and AC Sephiroth is not the real Sephiroth in my opinion so neither count. All signs of Sephiroth being a cruel bastard are a result of Cloud's messed up little head.
Ultemacia is only tossed to the side line cause she was so poorly developed. her motive is illogical and her means to fulfill them even more so. She's just bat-:skull::skull::skull::skull: crazy and nothing more...
Kuja has the most sympathetic motive of all the villains except for maybe Xande but his means of doing it are clearly evil and villainous...
Sin is just stuck in a personal loop of his final thoughts before death and can almost be considered a force of nature. Seymore is the same as Ultemacia.
Only played five minutes of XI (curse you crappy internet connection!)
Vayne has personal glory in mind but is also thinking like a ruler so his motives are not clearly evil though it is underhanded that he gains alot for his efforts...
Now this is my feelings if we look at this for face value and not from a psychological or moral level. In that case, Ex-death is still a contender but Kuja and Kefka once again become contenders. All three villains truly do some heinous actions but more importantly... all three share the common trait of enjoying their evil acts. The other villains either didn't care or justified it in a twisted sense of morality.
Of these three, Ex-Death is a result of human mistakes. A physical embodiment of man's desire to destroy themselves (evil and forbidden magic) and the world around them (using sacred trees to seal their mistakes). Ex-Death destroys and kills cause its his nature. He literally is an embodiment of evil and his actions are taken straight from the pages of human history and depravity.
Kuja has a motive of seeking freedom but lets face it, he has to reduce the entire world in ruin just to get enough power to do it and when its all said and done, he decides to annihilate exhistence cause he can't fathom the world going on without him. So better for it to die with him. Its difficult to not judge Kuja's evil without seeing what he did. Granted a few villains before him attempted similiar feats in games prior to gain something but he's one of the few who accomplished his initial goal and can be thought to have actually devastated the world to do it.
Kefka gets some special props as well but I feel Mercen-X said it best. I think Kefka gets special props cause he's one of the few human villains who actually turned his back on humanity. Most will say he's crazy and he is cause he's a damn sociopath. The closest thing human psychology has to a definition for evil. The other villains except for Ex-Death could be thought to have some admirable traits if viewed from the proper light but Kefka has none. He will kill without hesitation and doesn't give a damn who you are. He posseses the terrifying trait of immunity towards reason and common morality. But the real clencher I feel is that he is human and still has these traits. Even more terrifying is that you watch his mind regress as the story goes until he thinks of himself as a god who's judgement is absolute. Even more than Ex-Death, Kefka enjoys killing and spreading chaos. He lives for it.
With the above statemants, I feel Kefka is the most evil cause Kuja and Ex-Death have stronger justifications for their actions than Kefka does and Kefka out of all the FF villains really enjoyed what he did.
The Sephiroth of AC was the real Sephiroth. The Reunion Files states that the biggest reason he appeared in the movie, was revenge for what Cloud did to him in Nibelheim(and in FFVII).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Ultimecia's development was in "Edea's" actions, because Ulti was possesing her.Quote:
Ultemacia is only tossed to the side line cause she was so poorly developed. her motive is illogical and her means to fulfill them even more so. She's just bat-:skull::skull::skull::skull: crazy and nothing more...
And what is illogical about trying to gain control over your own destiny(avoiding your dead in the proccess) by absorbing time and space?
Ultimecia was afraid of dying, and even before that, she was already "condemned for generations" by the people of the planet, as she said in her speech in Galbadia.
Illogical? Not at all.
And I agree with you about Kefka being the most evil.
WK, that's some insightful analysis and possibly the best conclusions I've seen so far in this thread. The only thing I want to point out is that X-Death also wanted to create a world in which the monsters/villains who have been banished to the N-Zone could live and rule.
My own lone vote for Vayne was based on the fact that I feel XII is an underrated installment, but initially on his willingness to murder members of his own family, a test which none of the other villains have been put to. However, the point of this thread is founded on interpretation, and I think your 3 top-contenders is a pretty solid list.
I have issues with a supposedly canon file that contradicts canon again since there should be no reason for Sephiroth to hate Cloud for Nibleheim since Last Order changed everything that happened there. But I will not argue with the statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by The CrystalThe Sephiroth of AC was the real Sephiroth. The Reunion Files states that the biggest reason he appeared in the movie, was revenge for what Cloud did to him in Nibelheim(and in FFVII).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
Ultimecia's development was in "Edea's" actions, because Ulti was possesing her.Quote:
Ultemacia is only tossed to the side line cause she was so poorly developed. her motive is illogical and her means to fulfill them even more so. She's just bat-:skull::skull::skull::skull: crazy and nothing more...
And what is illogical about trying to gain control over your own destiny(avoiding your dead in the proccess) by absorbing time and space?
Ultimecia was afraid of dying, and even before that, she was already "condemned for generations" by the people of the planet, as she said in her speech in Galbadia.
Illogical? Not at all.
And I agree with you about Kefka being the most evil.
As for AC, my statement may be due to a mistranslation since the only version I saw was from when it first came out in Japan. I thought I heard that Sephiroth would be reborned by combing the memories of him from other people and the planet with Kadaj and the Jenova neck. Thus this Sephiroth's personality would be more based on objective perspectives rather than subjective since Sephiroth's existence appeared to be annihilated by the Lifestream at the end of the original game. I'll have to read up on the new canon since it seems to change by the day...
Lord this is why I hate when they make sequels and prequels to stories years later after the fact... Anyway, it doesn't change the fact he mostly killed out of necessity and warped morality...
As for Ultemacia... I know that she spoke through Edea but the lack of info concerning her own time makes things difficult to understand. Mostly, I'm still trying to fathom where she got the idea of absorbing all space and time to free herself from the fear of being killed by SeeD when she already wiped them out in the future? If she was trying to wipe out SeeD from all history and had a means to send her mind into the past; I can't fathom how she could just stop SeeD from forming.
Basically, absorbing space and time seems too extreme an option in my opinion if she was just trying to free herself from being killed by others. I wished the game had elaborated and I feel the evidence presented in the game shows more that she was just bat-:skull::skull::skull::skull: crazy than having a logical motive. She was controlled by fear but it wasn't developed enough for my taste. Its just my opinion, course it was the time-traveling element I hated the most in VIII's plot, so having Ultemacia written out of the story would not bother me in the slightest. ;)
Yeah, FFVII cannon is allways changing. I understand how this can be annoying to some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno
But FYI the Nibelheim incident of LO was retconned in CC. (SPOILER)Cloud never talked with Tifa inside the Mako Reactor because she was unconscious, he tossed Sephiroth in the Mako, etc. CC corrected all the bulls*it LO added to the story.
And from what I remember, Yazoo, Loz and Kadaj are bodies made of Negative Lifestream "injected" with part of Sephiroth's will, to make them find Jenova and bring him back.
It's not only about SeeD. Ultimecia's dialogue show us that she was persecuted in the past:Quote:
As for Ultemacia... I know that she spoke through Edea but the lack of info concerning her own time makes things difficult to understand. Mostly, I'm still trying to fathom where she got the idea of absorbing all space and time to free herself from the fear of being killed by SeeD when she already wiped them out in the future? If she was trying to wipe out SeeD from all history and had a means to send her mind into the past; I can't fathom how she could just stop SeeD from forming.
Basically, absorbing space and time seems too extreme an option in my opinion if she was just trying to free herself from being killed by others. I wished the game had elaborated and I feel the evidence presented in the game shows more that she was just bat-:skull::skull::skull::skull: crazy than having a logical motive. She was controlled by fear but it wasn't developed enough for my taste. Its just my opinion, course it was the time-traveling element I hated the most in VIII's plot, so having Ultemacia written out of the story would not bother me in the slightest. ;)
“...Lowlifes. ...Shameless filthy wretches. How you celebrate my ascension with such joy. Hailing the very one whom you have condemned for generations.
Have you no shame? What happened to the evil, ruthless sorceress from your fantasies? The cold-blooded tyrant that slaughtered countless men and destroyed many nations? Where is she now? She stands before your very eyes to become your new ruler. HAHAHAHAHA.”
People condemned her for generations. They labelled her "evil", "ruthless", etc.
She was condemned by everyone in the world for many generations(because of what she did in the past/present before she was even born in the future), and destiny decided that she would die by the hands of SeeD. But then... She decided to fight back, to defend herself, because she had the power to do that. Everyone in the world hated her, so she decided to "change the world"(as stated in the game, if you use the Scan on her). And she decided to take control over time(aka take control over destiny itself to avoid her dead and be more powerful than anyone who was persecuting and trying to kill her).
I'm sorry but I can't understand how that can be illogical.
Among the FF villains, Ultimecia have one of the best motives to do what she did. And it's all in the game, people just have to pay attention to it(someting hard, considering the fact FFVIII is one of the most underrated FFs, and many people don't want to pay attention to the story).
Ah, and I'm not saying Ultimecia is a saint. Of course she is evil, and even if she had good reasons, she still did horrible things to achieve her goal.
That is a shame... I liked LOs change to that scene in the story. It was one of the few parts of the plot that never set well for me and LO did a better job and even made Sephiroth seem like a more calculating villain than he was before. I'll have to see the scene in CC (which will be a long time from now since I don't have a PSP) to make my final judgement but I must comment that I think its stupid to change a story 10 years after its made and then turn around and change it again. My opinion overall is that the compilation has screwed over and tarnished what used to be a good game...
As for Ultemacia, I understand and agree that she did this because she was an out cast all her life, but its never stated where she believed her fate was to die at the hands of SeeD nor is it ever stated where she decided that Time Compression was a good idea to fix her problem. She has a sympathetic motive for her actions but there are still too many missing factors that prevent me from taking the whole Ultemacia issue seriously as a well thought out villain. Had we been given a greater insight into what her past (or what the future) was like for her as well as an explanation as to why she couldn't just take over Edea's body and wipe out SeeD before it became a reality, or even how Time Compression really fits into all this...
I don't know about most people but having to cast scan on a major story enemy to learn their motive is sad and just shows neglect on the writers part. I do like VIII but this is one of a few hang-ups I feel the game has that prevents it from being truly great. My personal theory is that Ultemacia grew up watching SeeD wipe out her kind and the fear it instilled drove her mad. She kept imagining that SeeD was greater than her own power cause she still saw them as she did as a helpless child and in her madness concluded she must become a god in order to destroy them. Its a sound and logical theory but even I know there is no in-game evidence to support it. I wish they had expanded on her a little more...
I love VIII but its squandered potential is its greatest fault.
Do you want me to show you the FMV of CC where (SPOILER)Cloud toss Sephiroth in the Mako?
And do you think I need to use spoiler tags to talk about a scene in CC, that is exactly the same scene of the original FFVII, but that is considered "a new scene/retcon" now, only because of LO's previous retcon?
About Ultimecia, I agree her past wasn't explained in details. But Zemus' past wasn't too. Kefka's past wasn't either. And etc. The point is: Ultimecia have a good(and sympathetic) motive for her actions. And that's enough. Details aren't allways important.
But fuc*k that. Lets just agree to disagree and be over with it.
I'd just like to point out a problem with your past argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
Kefka's and Zemus's past really didn't have that much to do with there motives.
Kefka was crazy because of Magitech experiments, as said by Cid. Anything before that is irrelevent.
Zemus was a racist, that is the only thing relevent in his actions.
Ulti, however, formed her motives because of all that happened in her past. The anti-sorceress thing she spoke of and seed were major components of her motive that were never really looked into. Unlike Kefka and Zemus, Ulti had an entire past worth looking into, but it wasn't done.
In a way Zemus' past was part of what made him him. If not for the past events of KluYa and FuSoYa to stop him from his first attempt at destroying humans, Zemus never would of gotten that initial hate that built up over years that eventually transformed him into Zeromus.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Are you implying that he they should've just let him kill all the humans? xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000XIn a way Zemus' past was part of what made him him. If not for the past events of KluYa and FuSoYa to stop him from his first attempt at destroying humans, Zemus never would of gotten that initial hate that built up over years that eventually transformed him into Zeromus.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
Ah, and Wolf Kanno, you asked for an explanation as to why she couldn't just take over Edea's body and wipe out SeeD before it became a reality. Well, the Junction Machine Ellone has it's limits. Ulti could return to the past until a single point, but not beyond it. This is why she wanted Ellone. To travel back more, and initiate TC.
She would have wiped SeeD before it even started, if she had the chance. Proof of that, is that the first thing she did after taking over Galbadia, was shoot missiles against the Gardens.
And that's something I like about her. Instead of being an arrogant ass, underestimating the heroes, and playing around, she goes directly for the kill.
Depends, if the scene is just a FMV version of exactly what happened in the original then I don't need to see it. If its different then I might or I'll just end up swiping my friends PSP and copy of the game when he acquires it. I actually want to play CC oddly enough...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
NeoCracker beat me to my response on the other point. Ulti had more reasons to delve into her pasts if she was being portrayed as the sympathetic villain. My main point is that I'm trying to figure out where "hating SeeD and fearing death by their hands" equals "Time Compression to become a god" as I've stated before there seems to be a lack of explanantion as to why she needed to initiate such a plan. All we have is fan speculation of which you and I have both made good guesses to define her logic but there is little evidence in-game to say either of us are right I'm afraid (waiting for Bolivar to chime in anytime now...)
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as you said but at least we both agree its a good game right? :)
You're right, I forgot they mentioned that part. My bad. Well she did try to wipe out SeeD in the past but as I stated before, where does Time Compression fit in? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by The Crystal
No I was just trying to point out that he wasn't a villain whose past had no bearing to their being evil. It did, just not as much as maybe others.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoAre you implying that he they should've just let him kill all the humans? xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut2000XIn a way Zemus' past was part of what made him him. If not for the past events of KluYa and FuSoYa to stop him from his first attempt at destroying humans, Zemus never would of gotten that initial hate that built up over years that eventually transformed him into Zeromus.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
I miss all the good topics on here.
Ah well, better late than never.
I quote an old post of mine about Kuja's character.
I don't see Kuja as evil. Misguided by circumstance definitley but not evil.Quote:
A cliche villain would be power-hungry for the sake of power hungry. He is EVILLLLLL and he does BAD THINGS because...he’s an evil, bad person.
That’s not Kuja.
Kuja: Oh, how I've longed for this day.
Kuja: ...the day I might finally cast away this mask to reveal my true self.
Kuja: The final act will take us away from Gaia, and I will kill my nemesis...with my own hand!
Kuja wants to kill Garland...because he’s just a cliche and evil?
Kuja: I must destroy him before Terra's plan is activated, or my soul will no longer be my own!
It was either destroy Garland or Terra’s Resurrection would carry out and the Genomes, vessels for the true people of Terra, would be done for and Kuja’s soul would go to whoever it originated from.
Garland: I constructed the Genomes to be vessels for the souls of the people of Terra when they awaken.
What does Garland say of Kuja’s motivation?
Garland: He is only hiding it. He denies his own identity.
Garland: He rejects the meaning of his existence and tries to assert his own individuality.
Kuja doesn’t want to be seen as a someone else’s creation: as merely a vessel for someone else. He wants to establish his own power, his own will.
Kuja: The weak lose their freedom to the strong.
Kuja: Such is the way of the strong. And it is the providence of nature that only the strong survive.
Kuja: That is why I needed strength
Bu Kuja’s own assertions, it is the “providence of nature” that the weaker beings are subjugated by the stronger. He flatly acknowledges Garland is stronger than him and so he seeks to overcome this. As Hilda said
“ He was a hopeless narcissist”
For someone with such a strong will and ego as well as a philosophy that the strong should be the rulers of all below them, Kuja’s longing for power was a way to justify himself and defy his “destiny.”
Afterall, look at what it is that drives Kuja over the edge.
Garland: There's a limit on your life... You'll be dead soon...
Even as I die, you'll have died without ever leaving your mark on the world...
Kuja will never have the chance he longed for: to reject his existence, the life and destiny of a disposable tool.
Now witness fate’s ultimately cruel irony on the twisted and warped psyche of Kuja’s mind:
Kuja: What comedy! Zidane, isn't it hilarious!? I'll die just like the black mages I so despise!
Kuja: I single-handedly brought chaos unto Gaia, but in the end, I'm nothing but a worthless doll!
Despite his lifelong ambition to attain power to signify his individuality, he would die before he eve rhad the chance to build his “eternal kingdom.” Thus, in the desperate last acts of a man trying to elude the claws of death
Kuja): ...I won't let it happen.
Kuja: I won't... I won't let this world exist without me!
Kuja: Why should the world exist without me? That wouldn't be fair. IfI die, we all die!
In the mind of a half-crazed egotist of the highest order, the destruction of all lesser beings is the only right thing. He, Kuja, is the best and most powerful of all of them. By what right should they live while he perishes?
Kuja’s character and ambitions are merely something many fictional characters wrestle with: Fate. Destiny. The idea that free will is an illusion. Kuja tried to prove himself as an individual by attaining power. He ultimately failed because he could nto escape his destiny.
His final acts, even in the throws of death and after killing Zidane and his crew is to save them all.
Perhaps it is in that act alone Kuja finally escaped his destiny: the destroyer of Gaia, the taker of lives for a master and being a slave. He was a slave all his life...to Garland and his own greed. But in the end, he saved lives.
Kuja is anything but a cliche.
You know, discussing Kuja and Ultemacia and even Xande, I have to wonder... From a cultural standpoint who do you think everyone feels is more evil. What I mean by this is the fact that Ulti, Xande, and Kuja have very personal individualistic motives and from a western standpoint (which stresses individualism) the three of them are sympathetic villains but from an eastern perspective (which used to stress utilitarinism[sp?] ) these three might be considered the most evil cause they were willing to sacrifice all life to achieve personal indeed almost selfish goals.
I'm curious to know who Japan considers to be the most evil in a philisophical and moral way...
Well, what was the goal of Ultimecia? She wanted to achieve Time Compression. What does she have to gain from that? I never understood Ultimecia as a villain, personally.
I voted for Kefka because I think of his insanity as a kind of evil.
Read my conversation with Wolf Kanno and you will understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
She was scared of SeeDs killing her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
So she took action to try and keep this from happening and through her action to try and stop SeeDs from killing her, she ended up giving them the chance to kill her.
It's a cruel irony that happens a lot of villains driven by fear.
Oh, right. I do not think she is entirely evil in the wicked sense like Kefka was because she must have been dealing with intense paranoia and it clouded her judgment. I guess that it is a very selfish thing to do, but I cannot see either culture considering her more evil than the mass murders or warmonger villains of the other Final Fantasy games; in addition, she was not entirely unprovoked because there was an organization dedicated to killing out her kind, so I find it hard to diagnose her as entirely evil. I wish that the game would have gone into more depth about her character because it would have been nice to see the playable characters debating about whether what the goals and motives of the SeeD organization as a whole.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
She doesn't need a reason to be scared of SeeDs because she invented the SeeD system in a certain way of accomplishing her goal = lurking SeeDs to meet her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken LoverShe was scared of SeeDs killing her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roogle
So she took action to try and keep this from happening and through her action to try and stop SeeDs from killing her, she ended up giving them the chance to kill her.
It's a cruel irony that happens a lot of villains driven by fear.
Her goal was just to pass powers onto someone else.
The nature of "I don't want to disappear yet" thing in the game is a mistranslation.
It wasn't her intention to create SeeD, it was an accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serapy
And the reason she passed her powers to Edea, is because she was dying and a sorceress cannot die in peace without passing her powers to another female.
Every been happy a thread was inactive, only to have it return again when you had forgotten about its existence?
Welcome, to my life.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoCracker
The whole Time Compression thing in FFVIII confuses me >.<
Lemme see if I have it right:
FFVIII Spoilers
1. SeeDs try and kill Ulti.
2. Ulty tries to achieve TC to destroy all of the SeeD
3. Before time is fully compressed, she is defeated by SeeD.
4. Squall gets lost for a little bit and ends up at the orphanage, where he sees Ulty pass her powers to Edea and die.
5. Squall gives Edea the idea of SeeD, giving Ulty an enemy.
6. SeeDs try and kill Ulty.
???
Welcome to Greek Tragedy 101 ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
Basically except you missed one part.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
7. ???
8. Profit
[/end old South Park joke here]
Congratulations you win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover
You are right, with exception of number 2. She wanted to destroy SeeD, true, but the reason to initiate TC was much bigger than just that. She was using TC to absorb the power of all sorceresses in history, and later, absorb time and space itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jessweeee♪
Back to topic, I think Kefka is the most evil.
On topic of most evil, it's probably Zermus or Ex-Death or the pre-FFVI villains.
People like Zermus are simple haracters and often the simplest characters are the most evil or good according to typical definitions.
Kefka, Kuja and even Ultimecia all have some level of depth to their actions; motivations and circumstances that made them, or at least lead them, to do what they are doing.
So you could argue Kefka isn't truly evil because he's insane. Evil is the conception of the sane mind.
Kuja had humanistic motives and an evil way to carry them out...he's in a grey area at the end.
Same for Ulty.
Duh! Dr Evil all the way.