Never Again...

Of all the mainline FFs (no sequels or spin-offs) which battle system could you live without ever seeing again and why?

Personally, I feel it is FFI's if only cause the Job class system has spoiled me and the idea of choosing my party and their classes (which I would technically be stuck with til the end of the game); just doesn't sound as appealing to me like it used too. Granted I love FFI but I can't see a modern story based 40+ hour FF using this system well.

EDIT: Due to its unique position, FFXI is not part of the thread. Its Job Class system is pretty awesome anyway...

I picked ff2 cause it takes way too long to level anything up. I mean what the hell cure 25?

popping rocks on your weapons. Ugh.

I'll leave you to decide if I mean ff7 or ff9.

I've ranted about my least favorite enough times that I'm sick of it. But I imagine and hope that no one is actually keeping track of what I say, so fine, again.

If it were really "use it or lose it" I'd be fine with that, but unfortunately it's more like "risk losing it every single time you use anything else at all," making it very frustrating to make a magic user. "I don't need to use magic here, but if I attack I might lose magic power so I'd better waste MP on a useless spell" becomes "well, now I'm halfway through the dungeon and out of MP. Now I have no choice but to lose my magic power." That would be a flaw. The fact that the one and only time I could stomach going through that game I didn't know that this would be an issue and actually had two mages made it even worse. I would have been enraged had I actually paid for the game.

If you like the game, fine, good for you. But don't sit there and try to tell me that the system was well executed. It was not.

I hate FFXII's system, but FFII isn't far behind.

XII, I like abit of guidance when it comes to classes and I also prefered random encounters.

heh.....looks like I voted without reading!

so I assumed it was favorite battle system, and voted for X!

Of the ones I've played the battle system I disliked most would have to be XII.

Man, I was so excited about XII.......and was severely let down by that foolish gambit system.

I wasn't that fond of IX's either. Learning abilities from equipment seemd silly to me, and some of the abilities in themselves were just foolish

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

heh.....looks like I voted without reading!

so I assumed it was favorite battle system, and voted for X!

Of the ones I've played the battle system I disliked most would have to be XII.

Man, I was so excited about XII.......and was severely let down by that foolish gambit system.

I wasn't that fond of IX's either. Learning abilities from equipment seemd silly to me, and some of the abilities in themselves were just foolish

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Yeah, I was totally let down by the fact I didn't have to worry over every little thing that came up. The game would have been so much better if I had to navigate into a menu and manually cast that status cure four times. Menu navigation is the way of the future.

Prolly FF6. It was an ATB system. Unfortunately, it was a meh system. It wasn't the first game to have it, so it didn't get any points there, and it didn't really add anything unique. It was just an ATB.

10. everything about that game sucked

I've played III, IV, and VII+ of the ones listed, and I didn't really have a problem with any of them. IV's kinda bored me some because I played that last, but I could stand it.

eff eff tu

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Originally Posted by Coma

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

heh.....looks like I voted without reading!

so I assumed it was favorite battle system, and voted for X!

Of the ones I've played the battle system I disliked most would have to be XII.

Man, I was so excited about XII.......and was severely let down by that foolish gambit system.

I wasn't that fond of IX's either. Learning abilities from equipment seemd silly to me, and some of the abilities in themselves were just foolish

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Yeah, I was totally let down by the fact I didn't have to worry over every little thing that came up. The game would have been so much better if I had to navigate into a menu and manually cast that status cure four times. Menu navigation is the way of the future.

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Menu navigation pwns

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Originally Posted by Coma

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

Of the ones I've played the battle system I disliked most would have to be XII.
\Man, I was so excited about XII.......and was severely let down by that foolish gambit system.

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Yeah, I was totally let down by the fact I didn't have to worry over every little thing that came up. The game would have been so much better if I had to navigate into a menu and manually cast that status cure four times. Menu navigation is the way of the future.

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Why didn't you guys turn off gambits?

wait a minute, coma's being sarcastic. . . okay, why didn't crazybayman turn off gambits xD

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heh.....looks like I voted without reading!

so I assumed it was favorite battle system, and voted for X!

Of the ones I've played the battle system I disliked most would have to be XII.

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Fixed.

i hate the sphere grid, put me right of the game. I'm sure if i'd played it now id get the grip of it, but i just don't have the time to waste with that one. the story, while it was good, just did not grip me at all.

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Originally Posted by RubyLapiz

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Originally Posted by Coma

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

Of the ones I've played the battle system I disliked most would have to be XII.
\Man, I was so excited about XII.......and was severely let down by that foolish gambit system.

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Yeah, I was totally let down by the fact I didn't have to worry over every little thing that came up. The game would have been so much better if I had to navigate into a menu and manually cast that status cure four times. Menu navigation is the way of the future.

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Why didn't you guys turn off gambits?

wait a minute, coma's being sarcastic. . . okay, why didn't crazybayman turn off gambits xD

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Because gambits are quite possibly the greatest innovation in a long line of stale combat systems. I don't know about all of you but having my characters standing in a line, shadowboxing enemies whenever a bar decrees they can, is boring. And the only hook in JRPG's like this is the storyline and rarely the soundtrack. FF12 took steps in the right direction. No longer are my guys standing in a row they're moving around a battlefield. I don't have to navigate a nest of menu's for every little thing. Stuff like status effects can be gambited and my characters take care of it myself. Leaving me to make the important decisions, since the battles in this game are far more fast paced. Sure, the games boring as if you let the gambits completely take over, but thats a case of doing it wrong. Gambits are meant to be an aid in the very fast moving battles of FF12. The system needs a few tweaks (why does Reddas attack a monster I just put to sleep?) but its definitely taking strides in the right direction.

tl;dr FF12's gambits are great, so smurf you.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Granted I love FFI but I can't see a modern story based 40+ hour FF using this system well.

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Doesn't that basically sum up the XII International Zodiac Jobs thingy?

I chose VIII because it makes no sense drawing magic from enemies trying to kill you, then assigning magic to your stats (I wondr what that would feel like in real life?).

I quite enjoy XII's system myself. I thought it was engrossing and fun while it lasted. Though I do think in the end it was nothing more than the RPG of "do this when that", a factor it highlighted. It took a new approach but wasn't new at the end of the day. Heal when hurt, antidote when poisoned, cast fire when the enemy is weak against fire, that sort of thing. I've played too many RPGs to be too impressed with such things anymore. Which is why I've largely drifted away from the genre recently.

Anyway, I've only played IV and up, so I'm going to say IV's.

Those aren't battle systems, n00b. :P

I'm so glad I wasn't the only one thinking that.

So I guess this really means the worst system of character/party development. :P

I'm going to give the NES games a pass.

The worst is probably IV. There's no customization there. (Except for in the DS remake.) The characters in your party change according to the story. By the end, you have the same five characters no matter what you do, and they're pretty much the same except for a few summons or their levels.

Assuming we're talking about character development:

FFIV! Because there isn't one!

If we have to talk about games that actually had it...maybe III. One of my favorite games, its just my least fave system among the others.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

Those aren't battle systems, n00b. :P

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So I worded it wrong, but I am not changing it just because you decided to point it out :p

Besides, if it was a just battle systems you would have had 4 choices and even then two of them are variations of one of the systems so technically it would come down to ATB vs. traditional turn base.

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Originally Posted by Coma

No longer are my guys standing in a row they're moving around a battlefield. I don't have to navigate a nest of menu's for every little thing.

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Yeah, there's this series of games, I forget what its called, but for the most part they involve your party standing in a line, and navigating a little menu or combination of little menus to make battle commands. How stupid is that. And apparently they've been many people's favorite games for the past 20+ years. I mean, what kind of craziness is that.

Something called Final something or other. Man those games must suck.

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

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Originally Posted by Coma

No longer are my guys standing in a row they're moving around a battlefield. I don't have to navigate a nest of menu's for every little thing.

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Yeah, there's this series of games, I forget what its called, but for the most part they involve your party standing in a line, and navigating a little menu or combination of little menus to make battle commands. How stupid is that. And apparently they've been many people's favorite games for the past 20+ years. I mean, what kind of craziness is that.

Something called Final something or other. Man those games must suck.

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...and progress once again eludes the masses...

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

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Originally Posted by Coma

No longer are my guys standing in a row they're moving around a battlefield. I don't have to navigate a nest of menu's for every little thing.

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Yeah, there's this series of games, I forget what its called, but for the most part they involve your party standing in a line, and navigating a little menu or combination of little menus to make battle commands. How stupid is that. And apparently they've been many people's favorite games for the past 20+ years. I mean, what kind of craziness is that.

Something called Final something or other. Man those games must suck.

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It says a lot about your personal tastes, when you play RPGs because you like stale combat and menu navigation. I apologize, I was mistakenly under the impression that people play RPGs for their fantastic plotlines, likeable cast of character, and the sheer amount of escapism available in becoming some one else. Man, I honestly thought RPG's were about fun. But hey, pressing X about 30 times a minute is fun too, I guess.

Technically, he only has to hold it down.

>>> FF4 I guess, as someone posted here there's no customization in 4.. well, at that time rpg games/battle systems were still in diapers so i cant complain either.
I think the older FFs are pretty decent.
ff3 had the character classes, in ff2 I really liked the leveling up system, and ff1 allowed you to choose your party from the start (a pretty good idea if you ask me)..

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Originally Posted by Coma

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

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Originally Posted by Coma

No longer are my guys standing in a row they're moving around a battlefield. I don't have to navigate a nest of menu's for every little thing.

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Yeah, there's this series of games, I forget what its called, but for the most part they involve your party standing in a line, and navigating a little menu or combination of little menus to make battle commands. How stupid is that. And apparently they've been many people's favorite games for the past 20+ years. I mean, what kind of craziness is that.

Something called Final something or other. Man those games must suck.

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It says a lot about your personal tastes, when you play RPGs because you like stale combat and menu navigation. I apologize, I was mistakenly under the impression that people play RPGs for their fantastic plotlines, likeable cast of character, and the sheer amount of escapism available in becoming some one else. Man, I honestly thought RPG's were about fun. But hey, pressing X about 30 times a minute is fun too, I guess.

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Good lord.

Nothing to do with poor tastes, which is a poor statement given you are making the assumption based on a few posts in an internet forum. But I guess the same could be said about liking an rpg just because you like fantastic plot lines and likeable characters, when the rpg in question lacks both compared to other games in the series and genre.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

...and progress once again eludes the masses...

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Progress is great to see, when it's done properly. Gambits for instance could have been done much better. Ditto with the storyline, plot and development in the main young characters.

I have yet to see an offline-RPG that implements scripts as well as FFXII. Baldur's Gate II is the only one that comes close and even that doesn't allow for the low-level customization that FFXII does.

Then again I haven't played every RPG ever, so maybe I missed out on something.

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

...and progress once again eludes the masses...

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Progress is great to see, when it's done properly. Gambits for instance could have been done much better. Ditto with the storyline, plot and development in the main young characters.

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If you mean by "good story" that the cast has a gloomy main character with a dark secret, a cheerful young girl with ancient magical powers that the evil bad guys want, they both fall in love and every cutscene is so over the top in emotion; that it feels like a soap opera writer did it, then no XII doesn't have that. It didn't have an unnecessary love story that the plot decides to focus on more than the you know... the actual story. It had a cast that wasn't the standard cliche cast that has plagued the franchise since FFVI (no gloomier side characters with darker pasts, annoying cheerful little girls, and older gloomy females who acts like a "big sister" to the cast, nor a thick headed brawler whose heart is in the right place but has a few quirks but is lovable the same :rolleyes2). The dialogue itself is breathtaking, intelligent and for once, I didn't feel like the story was explained to me like I was 12 years old.

The plot actually focused on world powers battling and the innocent people who get swept up and destroyed by it rather than Evil man trying to destroy the world and existence so they can be a god. Hell, the villain is actually likable and his reasoning for doing his motive is more noble than any other viallin in the series. Its not a game that can be defined as you are good they are bad. For a long time the story shows that the villains are fighting for a noble cause and you're own party is contemplating on bringing the world down in ruin for the sake of revenge. It was ambiguous and even at the end of the day, its ending is more bittersweet than "happily ever after".

The Gambit system allows you to remove all the tedious work out of combat but guess what else? The game gives you a choice in using it! :eek: The gambits can be overpowered and basically "play the game itself" but only if you let it. You can actually turn them all off and play the game like a traditional turn-base JRPG. OMG a battle system that gives you more freedom and choice than previous installment? One that allows you to either make unholy gods in both equipment or A.I. or you can build a custom party, each with their equips and A.I. designed around specific jobs and tasks. The A.I. is limited by the player and allows the player to still actively watch the battles and issue orders to his "troops". The player creating complex strategies on the fly to win battles efficiently and effectively, or you can do away with all of it and control each players actions like traditional RPG fair. The combat system in XII is easily the most flexible in the series. :cool:

^ Man, I agree with all that, I've put in more hours on FFXII than any other RPG except maybe DQVIII, I can't even believe how much better this game gets every time I play it, and I'm always finding new things to appreciate about this amazing application of a script with a fantastic translation almost unequaled voice acting, BUT!!!:

It doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy.

And that's something I've been saying since dizzay uno. And I think that's what Crazybayman was getting at. That, and let's not be so quick to condemn the past simply because its battle system wasn't as "progresssive" [/fanboy drooling] as the latest installment. And for the record, no, you can't play it like the older games. Well, you can, but you'd have to turn the ATB to its slowest setting just for it to be sustainable. But even that's doubtful.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ Man, I agree with all that, I've put in more hours on FFXII than any other RPG except maybe DQVIII, I can't even believe how much better this game gets every time I play it, and I'm always finding new things to appreciate about this amazing application of a script with a fantastic translation almost unequaled voice acting, BUT!!!:

It doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy.

And that's something I've been saying since dizzay uno. And I think that's what Crazybayman was getting at. That, and let's not be so quick to condemn the past simply because its battle system wasn't as "progresssive" [/fanboy drooling] as the latest installment. And for the record, no, you can't play it like the older games. Well, you can, but you'd have to turn the ATB to its slowest setting just for it to be sustainable. But even that's doubtful.

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While I would disagree on the subject that "it doesn't feel like an FF" that is a topic for another day. Btw, this post is not actually targeted toward you, so if I say anything condescending its not meant for you cause I know you know how fun this system can be. :cool:

I think my issue with some of the slander on the games battle system just stems from the idea that's its main difference is that we added the 3D element to it it (though rather poorly) and that it gives you a system that allows you to have the A.I. deal with the tedious aspects of combat while the player can deal with strategy and exploration. Overall, its setup and command style is basically turn base with a few modifications that create the illusion of something radically new and different. X's system pulled a similar idea and I've always found it amusing how similar and yet polar opposite they are to each other.

My other issue is that the gambit (and License Board) are only as restrictive and fun as the player allows it to be. The game easily allows you to make everyone into clones with an efficient enough Gambit setup that allows the player only need to press forward and on the analog stick and occasionally check to make sure they are going the right way.

At the same time you can highly customize your party and restrict Gambits to tedious fare like buffing spells or emergency's like Use X-potion on Ally/HP/Critical and then issue combat commands on an individual basis and even modify gambits when the battle turns sour. Basically its a system I feel is only as fun as your imagination allows it to be. In many ways, its like II and VIII's system in terms of customization. I just feel that like its predecessors, many fans can't seem to grasp the idea of the systems customization options and proceed to go with making bland party's where everyone is clone of each other.

Granted I don't believe the system is perfect and god knows it could use some improvements but for the most part; I felt the game is fun and its battle system is amazing when you try not to go all "munchkin" on it.

I don't hate turn base and its not that I wish all future FF should be XII's system but rather I feel its silly to hate on it cause its not like previous installments, when in fact its nothing more than a modification of turn base. Granted, its hard to tell when you play the game on Active mode. Cause god knows when you're wandering through the Lhusu Mines and half a dozen skeletons knights spawn around you the whole battle becomes a cluster smurf and it comes down to your gambits to win the battle. I think its moments like these where I truly appreciated the battle system. :cool:

Of the FFs that I've actually played, III is the only one whose class/advancement system I flat out don't like. I can't really put my finger on the exact reason, and it doesn't completely ruin the game for me, but something about it grates.

Wolf,

I never thought your comments were directed at me, hell, mine weren't even directed at you, just those who were challenging bayman, quick to throw out old systems becaue of how "new" [/fanboy drooling] XII's is.

But I'm sorry, my friend, but FFXII doesn't feel like an FF, hell, it doesn't even feel like a Matsuno or even an Ivalice team game. I mean c'mon, the guy who took the reigns hasn't been involved in an FF in like...20 years almost. This is not a debate, your opinion has no meaning, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

j/k...:choc2:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wolf,

I never thought your comments were directed at me, hell, mine weren't even directed at you, just those who were challenging bayman, quick to throw out old systems becaue of how "new" [/fanboy drooling] XII's is.

But I'm sorry, my friend, but FFXII doesn't feel like an FF, hell, it doesn't even feel like a Matsuno or even an Ivalice team game. I mean c'mon, the guy who took the reigns hasn't been involved in an FF in like...20 years almost. This is not a debate, your opinion has no meaning, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

j/k...:choc2:

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You ass...;)

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ Man, I agree with all that, I've put in more hours on FFXII than any other RPG except maybe DQVIII, I can't even believe how much better this game gets every time I play it, and I'm always finding new things to appreciate about this amazing application of a script with a fantastic translation almost unequaled voice acting, BUT!!!:

It doesn't feel like a Final Fantasy.

And that's something I've been saying since dizzay uno. And I think that's what Crazybayman was getting at. That, and let's not be so quick to condemn the past simply because its battle system wasn't as "progresssive" [/fanboy drooling] as the latest installment. And for the record, no, you can't play it like the older games. Well, you can, but you'd have to turn the ATB to its slowest setting just for it to be sustainable. But even that's doubtful.

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Well said!

No one's hating on XII. It is a good game. I'm even playing through it again (when I get the chance). However, when it comes to the battle system, it doesn't quite feel like a FF.

For me I find this especially so in the sense of enjoying a little bit of good ol' nostalgia.

And I suppose we could all argue until we were blue in the face about "why I like this one more than that one", with rebuttal from someone else about why their opinion is wrong, and they should like the game for the same reason that person likes it.

Its a farkin' crazy cycle I tell you!!!

Of the FFs I've played, I would say that I dislike VIII's system the most...but that's probably because I'm stupid and I don't understand it...or I haven't played the game long enough to understand it. :p

Also, these poll choices are really creative, Wolf! I enjoyed reading them.

And....also...

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

If you mean by "good story" that the cast has a gloomy main character with a dark secret, a cheerful young girl with ancient magical powers that the evil bad guys want, they both fall in love and every cutscene is so over the top in emotion; that it feels like a soap opera writer did it, then no XII doesn't have that. It didn't have an unnecessary love story that the plot decides to focus on more than the you know... the actual story. It had a cast that wasn't the standard cliche cast that has plagued the franchise since FFVI (no gloomier side characters with darker pasts, annoying cheerful little girls, and older gloomy females who acts like a "big sister" to the cast, nor a thick headed brawler whose heart is in the right place but has a few quirks but is lovable the same ).

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I would say that XII does still have these archetypes, though they aren't as extreme as they used to be.

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Originally Posted by crazybayman

Well said!

No one's hating on XII. It is a good game. I'm even playing through it again (when I get the chance). However, when it comes to the battle system, it doesn't quite feel like a FF.

For me I find this especially so in the sense of enjoying a little bit of good ol' nostalgia.

And I suppose we could all argue until we were blue in the face about "why I like this one more than that one", with rebuttal from someone else about why their opinion is wrong, and they should like the game for the same reason that person likes it.

Its a farkin' crazy cycle I tell you!!!

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"Life is an endless waltz of war, peace, and revolution..."

Though I may never understand this concept of XII not feeling like an FF (personally, its the first FF in a long time to feel like an FF to me since possibly FFIX) but we do all have our won opinion and I respect that. I just get annoyed when people thrash the battle system for sill reasons (you didn't, I was just preempting the deluge of XII haters I've dealt with in the XII forums who may take your comment as a sign to bash). Course if we all agreed their would be no point in discussing anything.:D

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Originally Posted by hhr1dluv

Of the FFs I've played, I would say that I dislike VIII's system the most...but that's probably because I'm stupid and I don't understand it...or I haven't played the game long enough to understand it. :p

Also, these poll choices are really creative, Wolf! I enjoyed reading them.

And....also...

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

If you mean by "good story" that the cast has a gloomy main character with a dark secret, a cheerful young girl with ancient magical powers that the evil bad guys want, they both fall in love and every cutscene is so over the top in emotion; that it feels like a soap opera writer did it, then no XII doesn't have that. It didn't have an unnecessary love story that the plot decides to focus on more than the you know... the actual story. It had a cast that wasn't the standard cliche cast that has plagued the franchise since FFVI (no gloomier side characters with darker pasts, annoying cheerful little girls, and older gloomy females who acts like a "big sister" to the cast, nor a thick headed brawler whose heart is in the right place but has a few quirks but is lovable the same ).

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I would say that XII does still have these archetypes, though they aren't as extreme as they used to be.

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Thanks for the compliment, I like abusing the polls. ;)

As for the archetypes, yes, I do know the game still utilizes them and I agree not to the extreme of other JRPG fare. I was just happy that this cast wasn't as blatantly obvious as previous installments. Many of the FFs started and after awhile abused the archetypes but I generally forgave them (except FFX :mad:) cause in the course of the plot they outgrew the archetype and became their own person. I know that in the world of writing its difficult to create characters and scenario's and not reuse archetypes. I feel the test of a true writer is to take these old themes and make them into something unique and somewhat new. This is why I felt XII did such a good job storywise. :cool:

I didn't really like Materia, simply because you'd be absolutely helpless magic wise once it's removed from a character.

At least with systems like FFVI's you would still have the magic and stat bonuses that you gain from the espers even if you de-equipped them. With FFVII's if you de-equip them your character won't have the magic/skill anymore. It's kind of strange levelling up a lot of Materia on one character only to have them not have the magic/skills anymore one you remove them.