Overratedroth.

Now I'm not just saying this because I hear people saying FFVII in general is overrated but I'm pretty sure Sephiroth is an extremely overrated villain.

The worst thing he does in the entire game, if I recall correctly, is burn down Cloud's village which has a total population of about 16 give or take a few NPC's. Whereas in the game previous, Kefka poisons an entire kingdom's water supply in not even the first 30 or so minutes of the game.

He's called a legendery warrior and whatnot and they like to talk about his unimaginable strength but don't just talk about it, show us! In the game he's barely seen and he's quite intimidating but it always just ends up in him making fun of Cloud, leaving, and a Jenova battle...


I. Garland found a crazy loophole in the time-space continuum.

II. Didn't bother to get far in II.

III. Same for III.

IV. Golbez took over the world's strongest kingdom and pretty much had a more-than-global (Overworld and underworld!) rampage.

V. Didn't get far enough in V for Ex-Death. ;_;

VI. Kefka actually destroys the world and becomes the god of magic. (We have our winner, folks.)

VII. Sephiroth is overrated.

VIII. Let's be honest here, Ultimecia has no reason for being evil, guys.

And so on and so forth.

Rant over! Can you agree with me?

Sephiroth actually has a very interesting backstory which was sadly underutilized in the game. He had all the makings of a respectable and even sympathetic villain (raised as one of Hojo's experiments), and the writing does not do it justice. The failure to properly develop both Sephiroth and Hojo is one of my chief complaints of FF7's plot.

Sephiroth was potentially the first interesting villain in the series IMO, though I agree with Raistlin -- his background was generally underutilized and misused.

There was sort of a revenge story about what happens when science and corporate politics try to control lives. In addition, in some sense, Sephiroth was analogous to a founder of a religious cult whose belief in his own self-importance has drastic consequences. That's already far more interesting than the generic evil and/or insane megalomaniacs from I-VI.

Because the concept of the Sephiroth character was not that generic villain we usually get in fantasy games (even if his ends amounted to the same thing), he deserves some of the love he gets IMO.

Unfortunately, the penchant for the illogical plot twist that crops up in a lot of anime series, literature, and games that run too long confounds exactly what Sephiroth was all about and what he was trying to do -- plus we get a lot of the Jenovah-masquerading-as-Sephiroth garbage that throws away some of the quality development the character had.

Also unfortunately, a lot of the love Sephiroth gets is because of the "kewl factor": he has a cool sword, has cool hair, has a cool black coat.

His, IMO, is a case where he gets too much blind credit from fanboys who like him because he's kewl, and probably not enough credit from people looking for reasons to dismiss those fanboys.

You are supposed to imagine there are more than 16 I think....that it is a village, hence cloud saying "and all the townspeople"

Sephiroth was a good villain because of the way he was, spoke and behaved. The music and the goal. That he was manipulating alien cells to become a god by creating a huge disaster and taking the spirit energy of the people.

He killed mercilessly, he sacrified his "copies", he manipulated cloud all through the story, he slashed Tifa and Zack, he burned down Niblheim, placed a barrier around the Great Crater, he stopped Holy from escaping, he summoned Meteor. He was a genetic experiment.

How many more things?

(SPOILER)http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fi...olom_Death.jpg

He's a badass! :eek:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Sephiroth was a good villain because of the way he was, spoke and behaved. The music and the goal. That he was manipulating alien cells to become a god by creating a huge disaster and taking the spirit energy of the people.

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I don't know what you mean by "was." Sephiroth behaved like an angry child and so did Kefka.
Dancing Mad is an amazing song, and unlike Sephiroth, Kefka actually accomplished his goals.

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He killed mercilessly

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As do all villains.

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He was a genetic experiment.

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So was Kefka. So was Terra. So was Celes.

I don't know why you keep comparing him to other FF Villains. I don't like it when people do that.
Would you rather every FF villain accomplished their goal? Or behaved in exactly the same way as Kefka? I think not. Stop getting annoyed because you think he's 'overrated'. You don't like him much and others do.

Instead of comparing him to everyone, and moaning that he's overrated, why don't you just play the game and have your own opinion on him and the whole game as a seperate entity - since that's what it is.

I personally thought that he was ok, but was overshadowed by the real villain - Shinra.
P.S. Rufus is a badass.

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Originally Posted by Crop

I don't know why you keep comparing him to other FF Villains. I don't like it when people do that.
Would you rather every FF villain accomplished their goal? Or behaved in exactly the same way as Kefka? I think not. Stop getting annoyed because you think he's 'overrated'. You don't like him much and others do.

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Yes massa I listen to ya it'll nevah happen evah again.

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Instead of comparing him to everyone, and moaning that he's overrated, why don't you just play the game and have your own opinion on him and the whole game as a seperate entity - since that's what it is.

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This is my opinion what am I doing wrong? D:

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I personally thought that he was ok, but was overshadowed by the real villain - Shinra.
P.S. Rufus is a badass.

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I want to know why he's overrated and also convert the heathens that do the overrating. Unless you don't want me to then I'll stop immediately.

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Originally Posted by Sagensyg

Unless you don't want me to then I'll stop immediately.

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I'll let you continue...this time. Carry on.

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Originally Posted by Sagensyg

He's called a legendery warrior and whatnot and they like to talk about his unimaginable strength but don't just talk about it, show us!

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Actually, there's a really cool sequence - relatively early in the game - that does just that. At the beginning of Cloud's flashback/storytelling in Kalm, you witness Cloud and Sephiroth in battle years prior. Cloud is a weakling, but Sephiroth uses high-level magic and is invincible against monsters. It's an effective contrast!

The translation is really confusing in a lot of Sephiroth's scenes, so there's that. His motives are a little far-fetched, and he cracks too easily, but he's "villainous enough" for me. Once he kills Aerith, I hate him, and I can't wait to kill him!

Also, isn't Sephiroth responsible for Cloud's abuse of Aerith after the Black Materia is stolen? Cruel!

Leave Sephy alone. :( No, but seriously, he is my favorite FF Villain, maybe it's because FF7 was my first Final Fantasy. I respect your opinion, though. I'm pretty much ignorant of anything prior to FF7.

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Originally Posted by Sagensyg

VI. Kefka actually destroys the world and becomes the god of magic. (We have our winner, folks.)

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That's the greatest joke I have ever heard.

Sephiroth absorbed the source of magic as well = the memories and knowledge of the Cetra. And yes, he did. It is stated in the Ultimania Omega. So he is a "god of magic" as well.

By the way it was not Kefka who has devastated the planet. He just moved the statues. It was not his own power at this moment.

Since you do not know many villains you only want to compare Kefka and Sephiroth in this thread. Like many do before. But then please use facts, so what happens in the story and what Square says.

Oh, and Kefka did not accomplished his goals. He simply wanted to destroy everything because he couldn't understand the meaning of life and asked himself why people build when the know everything will go away one day. He wanted to destroy all life, every feeling, et cetera...And he was not able to do this. Sephiroth wants to absorb all life and become the ruler of life by absorbing the lifestream - which means not only the lifestream of gaia (in Final Fantasy VII-1 he only mentions his goal of absorbing gaia's lifestream) but all life in the universe (like he mentions in Advent Children). Like JENOVA which travelled from one planet to another and absorbed all life, did (we wants to sail through the darkness of the cosmos just as his "mother" did long ago). And then he wants to build his own "Promised" Land where he could rule over all souls - the shining future he mentions in Advent Children (one day he will find a new planet and on it's soil they will build their shining future). Plus because of the Geostigma which has been "activated" with his willpower and not just the JENOVA cells in the lifestream he tormented many people in the world. They really suffer until they finally die like you can see in Final Fantasy VII Advent Children Complete or On the Way to a Smile.

Oh and I have almost forgotten to mention his abilities:

he is the character with the most powerful will
he is the most powerful wizard because of his will and his knowledge he has absorbed
he is an incomparable swordsmaster and swings Masamune like nobody else can
reunion as long as JENOVA cells exist so he return with a new body controlled by his own, original will
regeneration
shapeshifting/mimic, mimicing look, speech and language
creating illusionary worlds which feel like reality
manipulation of JENOVA cells
psychic power such as telekinesis, reading minds, telepathie, floating, flying (even without wing)
absorbing life energy because he is able to absorb the energy/knowledge & memories without his mind breaking like Cloud's does

et cetera.

Destroy Sephiroth and he doesn't care. He was even dead before Final Fantasy VII-1. But with his life energy at the northern crater he built himself a new body in a mako crystal.

He became a villain because he didn't read the truth but false documents after he had first doubts about his past. He thought he would be a Cetra and the human race would be the traitors. He didn't know JENOVA was an alien who killed almost all Cetra and the rest of the Cetra settled and almost lost their power to talk to the planet so they became the human race (like it is mentioned in the Ultimania Omega, being a Cetra is both cultural and racial so technically later even AVALANCHE became Cetra because the had learned to talk to the planet - of course Sephiroth absorbed the Cetra's power and abilities in the lifestream but when he found out about his past first he wasn't even thrown into the mako stream by Cloud, and of course had not just their power, no, then he even knew the truth about JENOVA and his past).

He is made to be the incomparably strong anime-villain not to be a loser. And everyone who calls him or Final Fantasy VII "overrated" is just a jealos...yes, a jealous fanboy/girl who is angry his/her favourite Final Fantasy (villain) doesn't get the same attention. And usually they haven't even understand the story so the want to use false arguments which is...pointless. Also I love the same cool arguments of people like "Kefka poisoned a river and so an entire kingdom.". LOL?! Every chemical factory does that. Wow, you are cool, Kefka!

Kefka is a great villain. But these things really are no arguments why he is better than Sephiroth.

And I hate this everlasting "Kefka VS Sephiroth" topic. Why? Because they are both two of the coolest Final Fantasy villains ever. I love everything about them except their fans.

Man, I've lost all the zeal I had for this troll thread so the victory is yours.

Congratulations, here's your prize:

Obvious troll thread is obvious, but I'm going to argue this anyways because I'm bored.

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Sephiroth absorbed the source of magic as well = the memories and knowledge of the Cetra. And yes, he did. It is stated in the Ultimania Omega. So he is a "god of magic" as well.

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The source of magic = Lifestream

Sephiroth didn't manage to absorb all of it. In fact, he probably only absorbed about half of it, since Aerith still controlled a great deal of it.

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By the way it was not Kefka who has devastated the planet. He just moved the statues. It was not his own power at this moment.

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Meteor wasn't Sephiroth's power, either.

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Oh, and Kefka did not accomplished his goals. He simply wanted to destroy everything because he couldn't understand the meaning of life and asked himself why people build when the know everything will go away one day. He wanted to destroy all life, every feeling, et cetera...And he was not able to do this.

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True, but he did accomplish the goal of "absorb all magic and become the most powerful being in the world."

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Sephiroth wants to absorb all life and become the ruler of life by absorbing the lifestream - which means not only the lifestream of gaia (in Final Fantasy VII-1 he only mentions his goal of absorbing gaia's lifestream) but all life in the universe (like he mentions in Advent Children). Like JENOVA which travelled from one planet to another and absorbed all life, did (we wants to sail through the darkness of the cosmos just as his "mother" did long ago). And then he wants to build his own "Promised" Land where he could rule over all souls - the shining future he mentions in Advent Children (one day he will find a new planet and on it's soil they will build their shining future).

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Sephiroth wasn't even close to achieving any of this.

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Plus because of the Geostigma which has been "activated" with his willpower and not just the JENOVA cells in the lifestream he tormented many people in the world. They really suffer until they finally die like you can see in Final Fantasy VII Advent Children Complete or On the Way to a Smile.

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Kefka had the whole world in fear, since they were all afraid of getting nuked by Light of Judgement. He also killed a great deal of people when he moved the statues.

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he is the character with the most powerful will

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cool opinion

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he is the most powerful wizard because of his will and his knowledge he has absorbed

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Tell that to Kefka's "All magic except ~16 Espers"

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he is an incomparable swordsmaster and swings Masamune like nobody else can

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I'll give you that.

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reunion as long as JENOVA cells exist so he return with a new body controlled by his own, original will regeneration

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I think Aerith already took care of that.

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shapeshifting/mimic, mimicing look, speech and language

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That's just a form magic, nothing too special for him.

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creating illusionary worlds which feel like reality

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That's just him messing with the characters' minds.

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manipulation of JENOVA cells

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...so?

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psychic power such as telekinesis, reading minds, telepathie, floating, flying (even without wing)

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vs. Light of Judgement and semi-omnipotence...

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absorbing life energy because he is able to absorb the energy/knowledge & memories without his mind breaking like Cloud's does

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vs. absorbing nearly all magic in the world

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Destroy Sephiroth and he doesn't care. He was even dead before Final Fantasy VII-1. But with his life energy at the northern crater he built himself a new body in a mako crystal.

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But he's gone, the planet/Aerith did away with him.

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He became a villain because he didn't read the truth but false documents after he had first doubts about his past. He thought he would be a Cetra and the human race would be the traitors. He didn't know JENOVA was an alien who killed almost all Cetra and the rest of the Cetra settled and almost lost their power to talk to the planet so they became the human race (like it is mentioned in the Ultimania Omega, being a Cetra is both cultural and racial so technically later even AVALANCHE became Cetra because the had learned to talk to the planet - of course Sephiroth absorbed the Cetra's power and abilities in the lifestream but when he found out about his past first he wasn't even thrown into the mako stream by Cloud, and of course had not just their power, no, then he even knew the truth about JENOVA and his past).

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...a glorified way of saying "he went insane." Kefka went insane, too.

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He is made to be the incomparably strong anime-villain not to be a loser.

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Yeah, I'll admit the whole "mama's boy" thing that people do is annoying.

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And everyone who calls him or Final Fantasy VII "overrated" is just a jealos...yes, a jealous fanboy/girl who is angry his/her favourite Final Fantasy (villain) doesn't get the same attention.

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Or just annoyed at the fact that there are swarms of FF7 fanboys saying that Sephiroth is the greatest villain ever.

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Also I love the same cool arguments of people like "Kefka poisoned a river and so an entire kingdom.". LOL?! Every chemical factory does that. Wow, you are cool, Kefka!

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Chemical factories can't kill an entire kingdom within a matter of minutes. They take days, maybe weeks.

Also, killing an entire kingdom > killing a building of Shinra employees

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Kefka is a great villain. But these things really are no arguments why he is better than Sephiroth.

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Oh lol. Sephiroth is between mediocre and average.

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And I hate this everlasting "Kefka VS Sephiroth" topic. Why? Because they are both two of the coolest Final Fantasy villains ever.

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Sephiroth is cool, just not a good villain.

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I love everything about them except their fans.

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that makes two of us

I wish I coulda equipped Sephiroth's sword though since it's awesome!!! I mean awesome as in the face it autocrits o_o

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Obvious troll thread is obvious, but I'm going to argue this anyways because I'm bored.

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What a reason. Because you don't want to be bored I am bored of this conversation.

Well done.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

The source of magic = Lifestream

Sephiroth didn't manage to absorb all of it. In fact, he probably only absorbed about half of it, since Aerith still controlled a great deal of it.

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The source of magic = the knowledge and memories of the Cetra. Stated by Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII-1, stated by Sephiroth in a Crisis Core memorial scene of the Digital Mind Wave system, the Ultimania Omega and Square. The lifestream is all life energy and memories & knowledge of dead people, animals, et cetera. Materia contains the ancient's knowledge. Because of this knowledge you can call the planet's power in form oif magic. Technically the planet's life energy/the memories/the knowledge is magic. Indeed. But it is completely useless without knowing how to use it and for this you need the most important life energy/memories/knowledge as tool = the ancient's knowledge. Sephiroth wanted to absorb the whole lifestream to be reborn as a god. And I have never said he had absorbed the whole lifestream. And you want to argue with me? LOL. I can read the Ultimania Omega without some internet translation. Aerith is partly a Cetra but she is not stronger than Sephiroth. And she knew that. That is, why she sacrificed herself. And he already absorbed this knowledge years before he killed Aerith. Final Fantasy VII has some plotholes and story filler but most of it is explained very well with all the things Square has published for the Compilation like the Ultimania, et cetera. Of course there are still some mistakes and even new mistakes but the most important things are explained well.

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True, but he did accomplish the goal of "absorb all magic and become the most powerful being in the world."

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He already was and is the "most powerful being in the world". Stated by Square and Tetsuya Nomura Sephiroth is the most powerful character in Final Fantasy VII and it is also stated they would never create a Final Fantasy VII character who is stronger than him so Minerva, no JENOVA and no one else. And it is also stated calling magic is possible because of the ancient's knowledge and not because of any other knowledge so he has absorbed magic because he already has absorbed their knowledge the first time he was in the lifestream.

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Sephiroth wasn't even close to achieving any of this.

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I love it how you post something just to post something. You make my day.

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cool opinion

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No opinion. It is a fact, stated by Square. And I love it how somebody like you who claims to know the Ultimania Omega and interviews does not even know that. Of course Square decides that to be the truth. They want his character to be more popular.

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Tell that to Kefka's "All magic except ~16 Espers"

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I have posted this to show Kefka is not the only wizard.

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I'll give you that.

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Of course. It is the truth.

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I think Aerith already took care of that.

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She can't do anything against his reunion. His will is the greatest of all. He resists the lifestream and he is the only one who can decide if he wants to return to the planet or not. If Final Fantasy VII would be over after the final battle Sephiroth VS Cloud directly after the Safer Sephiroth battle I would admit. But Square decided him to be even stronger. And he already used this will power during the first story line to get stronger in the lifestream while normal people couldn't do that. They made him the strongest character who can only be beaten because of his only weakness: Overconfidence. Not because somebody would be stronger than him. You don't need to be stronger than someone to beat him/her.

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That's just a form magic, nothing too special for him.

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That's not a "form magic". It is stated by Iphalna and Square and called "Mimic ability". JENOVA can use it = Sephiroth can use it. And Sephiroth combines it with his "reunion" ability because a true reunion is the combination of his original head and the rest of his cells but he doesn't have his original body and cells in Advent Children so he Kadaj and JENOVA cells are used to shapeshift Kadaj's geostigma body into a new Sephiroth body.

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That's just him messing with the characters' minds.

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Also stated it is one of his abilities.

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...so?

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Okay, you have never played Final Fantasy VII if you don't know that.

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vs. absorbing nearly all magic in the world

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As mentioned before, you really don't know anything about Final Fantasy VII's magic and the study of the planet's life. And what should "semi-omnipotence" be? Either you are omnipotent or you are not. Like you claim about Sephiroth, Kefka wasn't even close to that.

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But he's gone, the planet/Aerith did away with him.

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He is not gone. The final battle of Advent Children and Square's "the compilation will need another final" is really obvious. "Watashi wa...omoide ni wa naru nai sa." - "I will never be a memory." - This is not just a line.

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...a glorified way of saying "he went insane." Kefka went insane, too.

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It is cool how your only argument is "Kefka did this, too!". For my post I have posted things about Sephiroth because I already know Kefka is similiar to him.

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Yeah, I'll admit the whole "mama's boy" thing that people do is annoying.

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And I also hate it how Sephiroth fanboys/girl offend Kefka.

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Or just annoyed at the fact that there are swarms of FF7 fanboys saying that Sephiroth is the greatest villain ever.

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That's the same thing. They are jealous.

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Chemical factories can't kill an entire kingdom within a matter of minutes. They take days, maybe weeks.

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Again, no argument.

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Also, killing an entire kingdom > killing a building of Shinra employees

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A building with 70 floors (yes only the last floors) and a lot of people, not to mention very important people. The important and comparable person Kefka has killed is Emperor Gestahl. Kefka made ground infertile with his destruction, Sephiroth partly controls life itself.

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Oh lol. Sephiroth is between mediocre and average.

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I quote you again "cool opinion".

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Sephiroth is cool, just not a good villain.

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"Cool opinion".

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that makes two of us

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At least you agree with that.

And I do not know how you can post here when you are a person who is interested in the truth, so Square's facts. Everything I post here can be read somewhere else, in Final Fantasy VII, in the Ultimania, in interviews, et cetera. I have seen some other Ultimania translations so it is not me who translates something wrong because they are similiar to my translation. And even without that there is still the story itself and Square's words without Ultimania.

In case you reply to this post I won't answer. So don't misunderstand it and think I would have nothing else to say and you are right just because I do not answer.


EDIT: Ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha!
EDIT II: Do you really think I would mind your posts? I haven't even read your post. I was laughing because I knew you would reply. I know the truth. Only Square can decide what's the truth. So no matter what you say you will never be right as long as your post don't contain Square's words. But why do I even write here. You just want to discuss because you are bored and I haven't even read your new post because I am not the only one here who knows you will never accept another words than your own. And as long as you don't accept it, please stop wasting my time. It is simply riddiculus when someone says I am wrong when I can even prove my words. You are not talking with an idiot you are talking with a freak.
EDIT III: Okay, now that's the ultimate proof how ignorant you really are. Since I really do understand japanese, have the Ultimanias and know the interviews and have finished all the Final Fantasys more than just once and I love both of them (Sephiroth & Kefka) and I am a freak and I am not the only one who should be convinced by you (and you always try to mock people who are not impressed by your false knowledge) I will report you. You have just disqualified yourself with that weak try to mock me.

Know your place. Have you ever noticed people can show you facts which tell you your comments are wrong and you just say "No." just because you didn't understand the stories? Hmph! You won't make a fool of me by calling me a fanboy who cannot read.

And notice: Freak =/= Fanboy.

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What a reason. Because you don't want to be bored I am bored of this conversation.

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I didn't say that.

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Sephiroth wanted to absorb the whole lifestream to be reborn as a god. And I have never said he had absorbed the whole lifestream. And you want to argue with me? LOL.

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And the difference is that Kefka actually did manage to absorb the statues, unlike Sephiroth who couldn't absorb all the planet's lifestream.

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Aerith is partly a Cetra but she is not stronger than Sephiroth. And she knew that. That is, why she sacrificed herself.

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But she was strong enough to prevent Sephiroth from absorbing all of Lifestream, and was easily able to do away with him by using Great Gospel.

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He already was and is the "most powerful being in the world". Stated by Square and Tetsuya Nomura Sephiroth is the most powerful character in Final Fantasy VII and it is also stated they would never create a Final Fantasy VII character who is stronger than him so Minerva, no JENOVA and no one else.

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This is real nice and everything, except for the fact that Cloud managed to beat him single-handedly.

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And it is also stated calling magic is possible because of the ancient's knowledge and not because of any other knowledge so he has absorbed magic because he already has absorbed their knowledge the first time he was in the lifestream.

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I'm not denying that he can use magic. I'm saying that he just didn't absorb enough Lifestream to succeed in his plan of "turning the world into his vessel."

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I love it how you post something just to post something. You make my day.

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I love how you aren't denying that I'm right.

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No opinion. It is a fact, stated by Square. And I love it how somebody like you who claims to know the Ultimania Omega and interviews does not even know that. Of course Square decides that to be the truth. They want his character to be more popular.

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Cloud's will > Sephiroth's will, dude. That's why he was able to beat him single-handedly. And yeah, as a character he's alright. But as a villain...not so much.

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I have posted this to show Kefka is not the only wizard.

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Yeah, but he's just way more powerful than Sephy.

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He resists the lifestream and he is the only one who can decide if he wants to return to the planet or not. If Final Fantasy VII would be over after the final battle Sephiroth VS Cloud directly after the Safer Sephiroth battle I would admit. But Square decided him to be even stronger.

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Tell that to Great Gospel.

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They made him the strongest character who can only be beaten because of his only weakness: Overconfidence. Not because somebody would be stronger than him. You don't need to be stronger than someone to beat him/her.

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This is just denial of truth right here, and you have a very limited concept of "strength."

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That's not a "form magic". It is stated by Iphalna and Square and called "Mimic ability". JENOVA can use it = Sephiroth can use it. And Sephiroth combines it with his "reunion" ability because a true reunion is the combination of his original head and the rest of his cells but he doesn't have his original body and cells in Advent Children so he Kadaj and JENOVA cells are used to shapeshift Kadaj's geostigma body into a new Sephiroth body.

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Okay, you're right. This is something that he can do with Jenova cells. But it hardly matters, since the Jenova cells were easily done away with by Great Gospel.

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Also stated it is one of his abilities.

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Yeah, but it's not quite the same as creating an illusion world.

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Okay, you have never played Final Fantasy VII if you don't know that.

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I knew that. What I didn't know is how that ridiculously obvious piece of info had any relevance.

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As mentioned before, you really don't know anything about Final Fantasy VII's magic and the study of the planet's life.

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The planet's life = Lifestream = Materia = Magic

Seph didn't ever absorb all Lifestream to make the planet his vessel or to stop Aerith, and that's all either of us needs to know.

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And what should "semi-omnipotence" be? Either you are omnipotent or you are not. Like you claim about Sephiroth, Kefka wasn't even close to that.

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He was ALOT closer than Sephiroth was, since "All the planet's magic" except for the Espers was in the statues. The FF6 party had, what, 16 Espers out of an entire world of Espers that got their power drained by Kefka?

The only way for Sephiroth to even be equal to Kefka would be to have "All the planet's Lifestream - 16 Materia" and we definitely know that he was nowhere close to achieving the first one.

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He is not gone. The final battle of Advent Children and Square's "the compilation will need another final" is really obvious. "Watashi wa...omoide ni wa naru nai sa." - "I will never be a memory." - This is not just a line.

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Yeah, but who says the compilation will even feature Sephiroth? Lots of villains also say some variation of "Noooo! I can't be defeated! I won't die!" as well, but they don't actually come back.

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It is cool how your only argument is "Kefka did this, too!". For my post I have posted things about Sephiroth because I already know Kefka is similiar to him.

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Not at all. "They're both insane and powerful" is about the only similarities you'll find, since they both go through their games and handle situations and events very differently.

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That's the same thing. They are jealous.

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Disliking something popular doesn't automatically equal jealousy.

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A building with 70 floors (yes only the last floors) and a lot of people, not to mention very important people. The important and comparable person Kefka has killed is Emperor Gestahl.

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I guess you don't realize that he didn't kill as many Shinra employees as you think, since Shinra still had a sizeable army and the head execs still lived until the party took care of them.

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The important and comparable person Kefka has killed is Emperor Gestahl.

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Seph's is only President Shinra then, right?

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Kefka made ground infertile with his destruction, Sephiroth partly controls life itself.

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There's more than one way of controlling life.

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"cool opinion".

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Yeah, it's probably even better than yours.

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And I do not know how you can post here when you are a person who is interested in the truth, so Square's facts. Everything I post here can be read somewhere else, in Final Fantasy VII, in the Ultimania, in interviews, et cetera. I have seen some other Ultimania translations so it is not me who translates something wrong because they are similiar to my translation. And even without that there is still the story itself and Square's words without Ultimania.

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I'm not saying that Square is wrong. I'm saying you are wrong, because not everything you say is officially confirmed by Square themselves, and the things that are confirmed by Square don't stop me from being right.

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In case you reply to this post I won't answer. So don't misunderstand it and think I would have nothing else to say and you are right just because I do not answer.

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The original topic that was being discussed, which you quoted the TC on was Kefka/Sephiroth accomplishing their goal of absorbing all magic and destroying the world. While neither of them did actually fully complete these goals, Kefka a hell of a lot closer to accomplishing his goals of destroying the world and absorbing all magic than Sephiroth was (and a lot of other villains as well).

The one that's a better villain is debatable, but the previous statement is not, and there's nothing you can say that will change that anyways, so I'm not surprised that you won't answer. You don't have an answer.

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EDIT: Derp, I'm the world's biggest Sephiroth fanboy

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EDIT II: Do you really think I would mind your posts? I haven't even read your post, yet somehow I'm replying to it by making this edit. I was laughing because I'm the world's biggest Sephiroth fanboy. I refuse to accept the truth. Only Square and every non-Sephiroth fanboy can decide what's the truth. So no matter what I say I will never be right as long as ignore what you say, plug my ears and shout "lalalalalala". But why do I even write here. I just want to discuss because I get insanely butthurt when someone insults my idol, Sephiroth, and I haven't even read your new post because I am the only one here who can't handle the truth and that I'm wrong. And as long as I continue to deny the truth, please tell me that I'm so incredibly wrong. It is simply riddiculus when someone says I am wrong and I plug my ears and shout "lalalala" because I'm afraid of being told I'm wrong. You are talking with an idiot and you are talking with someone who is the definition of an extremely closed-minded Sephiroth fanboy that gets extremely butthurt that someone would point out facts about his idol.

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Lol at this guy, he is the biggest Sephiroth fanboy I have ever seen, hands down. This guy fits every stereotype of Sephiroth fanboys.

Since you seem to suffer from "can't read words" syndrome, like all Sephiroth fanboys, I'll post a picture for you:

http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/s...arrett/3-1.jpg

I love how srs people take this. You've insulted Sephiroth, how dare you!!!

No but yeah, I think he's overrated. Long haired feminine anime man with an oversized katana, doesn't exactly score originality points.

I had a friend who was obsessed with his theme tune and sung it all the time. Maybe I'm biased. :(

Bigger discussion: Sephiroth is an anagram of Her Hot Pis. win/fail?

Okay, let's stop calling other members fanboys. The debate isn't about other members, it's about a FF character.

Answer my damn question you spammer. >:(

You're sure doing a good job of "not replying to my posts."

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

EDIT III: Okay, now that's the ultimate proof how ignorant you really are.

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Irony at its finest.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Since I really do understand japanese, have the Ultimanias and know the interviews and have finished all the Final Fantasys more than just once

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That's great and all, but nothing you posted from the Ultimanias makes me wrong, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

and I am not the only one who should be convinced by you

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Yeah, that whole "I can't hear you lalalala" thing you're doing works pretty well, doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

(and you always try to mock people who are not impressed by your false knowledge)

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>he thinks that plugging his ears shouting "lalalala I can't hear you" = not being impressed

>he thinks that any knowledge which proves him wrong must be false

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I will report you.

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Lol

For what? Stating that you have been refusing to admit that you're wrong?

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You have just disqualified yourself with that weak try to mock me.

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I pointed out that you're ignoring everything I say because you don't like being told you're wrong, and you think that makes everything I said before that invalid?

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Know your place. Have you ever noticed people can show you facts which tell you your comments are wrong

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Lol @ implying that everything you said were facts. On top of that, the things that you said that actually were facts don't make me wrong and they don't make you any less wrong.

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and you just say "No."

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You're right. Instead, just "not reply" and pretend that everything that I say is fact and that I can't possibly be wrong. Just like you, am I rite?

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just because you didn't understand the stories? Hmph!

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I understand them well enough to know that nothing you said makes you any less wrong.

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You won't make a fool of me by calling me a fanboy who cannot read.

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Trust me, I'm not the one who's making a fool out of you.

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And notice: Freak =/= Fanboy.

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Way to pretend I said something that I actually didn't.

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Originally Posted by No.78

No but yeah, I think he's overrated. Long haired feminine anime man with an oversized katana, doesn't exactly score originality points.

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^ THIS.

Also, genetic experiment being that [somehow] doesn't become aware of such experiments until much later, then goes insane over it and starts to hate everything. Now, I'm not saying that this is a bad backstory, but I just see it recycled over and over in far too many anime/etc. Some people here probably know that I'm not exactly a Magus fan [just using this as an example], yet Magus to me was still a great deal more impressive in my opinion.

Yes, he is overrated. Don't get me wrong, I think Sephiroth is awesome. He has a lot going for him, with a great combination of raw power and behind-the-scenes manipulation. But is he awesome enough to deserve a million fanclubs across the globe and be consistently rated one of the best video game characters of all time? Hell no.

Truly, 7 is overated, especially when compared to 8 and Ultemecia

well at least sephy and Kefka didn't have homosexual tendencies like Kuja and Seymour....

*Garnie is killed by the kuja and Seymour fan boys*

Sephiroth is so hardcore he kills flower girls.

I think the fact this character keeps being brought up and winning polls after 10 years says how much he stands up as a character.

:D

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I think the fact this character keeps being brought up and winning polls after 10 years says how much he stands up as a character.

:D

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Yeah just like DBZ and Pokemon. :mad:

George W Bush used to win polls as well.

Not 10 years after he left office ;)

You don't know that yet.

I can't tell if you're trolling or not, but I'm gonna respond seriously anyways just because I'm kinda bored right now.

There are still a lot of people out there that think Bush was an amazing president. They're definitely not in low number, either. Many people also think that DBZ and Pokemon were wonderful, supreme-quality animes that easily top any other anime that has come out and that will come out. I of course, think they're the worst trash ever created, but it doesn't stop all the 13 year-olds from loving that crap. I'd say the same for Sephiroth since like all of the above, he only wins popularity polls with certain demographic audiences. Of course, some people outside of that category still think he's cool, just like all of the above as well. It's definitely not in high number though. Like if I took these forums as an example, too many people disagree with this Sephiroth stuff, so I'd hardly consider him a universal poll winner.

and he's still my favorite FF villain, more so that kefka or Kuja or ultimecia, exdeath or any of the others.

There's something special about him.
Something Square hasn't been able to recapture especially in recent villains.
The recent villains lacked something..to such an extent by the time you got to the end of the game it was an anticlimax and the villain was an easier fight than others you fought along the way.

For me Sephiroth is still the greatest villain in the history of FF.

:D

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

and he's still my favorite FF villain, more so that kefka or Kuja or ultimecia, exdeath or any of the others.

There's something special about him.
Something Square hasn't been able to recapture especially in recent villains.
The recent villains lacked something..to such an extent by the time you got to the end of the game it was an anticlimax and the villain was an easier fight than others you fought along the way.

For me Sephiroth is still the greatest villain in the history of FF.

:D

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Okay I originally had... I'll just say it was a "different" response to this post, but decided to delete my message since you-know-who would've found it too "mean". However, I seemed to have missed the part that I bolded here. PLEASE don't tell me you're trying to imply that Sephiroth was actually challenging to fight. Like any other final battle with an FF main villain, the final Sephiroth battle is a joke without having to over-level your party. The only noteworthy part of that fight is the fact that he keeps casting a pathetic hour-long-animation spell called Super Nova, which despite destroying the entire solar system as well as the sun itself [even though apparently they all seem instantly regenerate after being destroyed], still isn't capable of destroying your party [uh?]. His version of Heartless Angel also seems inferior to Kefka's since it can be blocked, and he's only able to use it when he's low on HP "hey guys I'm almost dead". Pale Horse also seems kinda pathetic to me since it's single-target.

I think he's called Safer-Sephiroth for a reason, and I'm pretty sure it's not because it's a mistranslation of "Seraph" XD

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Originally Posted by Khalin

Okay I originally had... I'll just say it was a "different" response to this post, but decided to delete my message since you-know-who would've found it too "mean". However, I seemed to have missed the part that I bolded here. PLEASE don't tell me you're trying to imply that Sephiroth was actually challenging to fight. Like any other final battle with an FF main villain, the final Sephiroth battle is a joke without having to over-level your party. The only noteworthy part of that fight is the fact that he keeps casting a pathetic hour-long-animation spell called Super Nova, which despite destroying the entire solar system as well as the sun itself [even though apparently they all seem instantly regenerate after being destroyed], still isn't capable of destroying your party [uh?]. His version of Heartless Angel also seems inferior to Kefka's since it can be blocked, and he's only able to use it when he's low on HP "hey guys I'm almost dead". Pale Horse also seems kinda pathetic to me since it's single-target.

I think he's called Safer-Sephiroth for a reason, and I'm pretty sure it's not because it's a mistranslation of "Seraph" XD

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Super Nova of course is just a demonstration of his power like all the other moves in Final Fantasy. If he would have unleashed a Super Nova, the planets and the characters would be dead. Oh, yes: Many people don't know but it is not the original scene of Sephiroth's Super Nova. Just another information of mine.

Also fight Sephiroth without ribbon items and all these things, increase his Hit Points up to 400000 and he is very strong during this battle. It can be challenging.

Super Nova is not a demonstration of his actual power as said by the plot; it is a gameplay element.

Sephiroth also has a set pattern of attacks.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Super Nova is not a demonstration of his actual power as said by the plot; it is a gameplay element.

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There is just one question in Crisis Core about Super Nova and it is an optional "side quest". It is obvious that's no serious question not to mention Sephiroth cannot use Super Nova in Crisis Core. And every single move is a demonstration of power/showing what a character or enemy is able to do. Even the one million laser attack of your precious Xemnas or his heart stealing attack.

And of course in the Final Battle Sephiroth has a set pattern of attacks. I have never said anything against that. It is simply the truth.

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There is just one question in Crisis Core about Super Nova and it is an optional "side quest"

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...so? Super Nova destroying the solar system still makes absolutely no sense according to the plot.

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Even the one million laser attack of your precious Xemnas or his heart stealing attack.

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There's two main differences though:

1. Xemnas' attacks don't break any plot rules
2. These two particular attacks that you've chosen are essentially unavoidable which the game itself forces upon to you to say "LOOK! THIS IS WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENS!".

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And of course in the Final Battle Sephiroth has a set pattern of attacks. I have never said anything against that. It is simply the truth.

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Making him...not so challenging.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

...so? Super Nova destroying the solar system still makes absolutely no sense according to the plot.

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Just because he is powerful enough to unleash something like that it doesn't mean he has to do that. Of course he has never used a Super Nova. Otherwise there would be no Happy Ending. Look at all the anime villains. Every idiot is able to destroy the Solar System. Cell just needs one Kamehame-Ha - but he was stopped before he could. Broly needs one move to destroy the galaxy. But he was stopped before he was able to destroy the northern galaxy like he did with the southern. Anime villains are riddiculusly powerful. Most of the Final Fantasy villains are typical anime villains. And when your true question was "Why would he use a Meteor if he could use a Super Nova?" - Sephiroth needed a body in Final Fantasy VII to absorb the lifestream. He needed a point where the energy would focus and where he would be. So destroying everything and all the JENOVA cells so he wouldn't even be able to reunite himself would be quite stupid.

And yes, Xemnas attacks do not break plot rules as well. He was nothing but an example.

Maybe you think Sephiroth is not that challenging but in case your team heals him with Megalixirs over and over again because Super Nova has worked you'll probably think the same way I do about the battle.

EDIT: I just want to mention: You are right, there are things in Final Fantasy which are not logical. But the story of Sephiroth, how he combines his powers and everything is written and explained very well - there are some strange things about him as well. Indeed. But almost everything has an explanation.

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Originally Posted by Khalin

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

and he's still my favorite FF villain, more so that kefka or Kuja or ultimecia, exdeath or any of the others.

There's something special about him.
Something Square hasn't been able to recapture especially in recent villains.
The recent villains lacked something..to such an extent by the time you got to the end of the game it was an anticlimax and the villain was an easier fight than others you fought along the way.

For me Sephiroth is still the greatest villain in the history of FF.

:D

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Okay I originally had... I'll just say it was a "different" response to this post, but decided to delete my message since you-know-who would've found it too "mean". However, I seemed to have missed the part that I bolded here. PLEASE don't tell me you're trying to imply that Sephiroth was actually challenging to fight. Like any other final battle with an FF main villain, the final Sephiroth battle is a joke without having to over-level your party. The only noteworthy part of that fight is the fact that he keeps casting a pathetic hour-long-animation spell called Super Nova, which despite destroying the entire solar system as well as the sun itself [even though apparently they all seem instantly regenerate after being destroyed], still isn't capable of destroying your party [uh?]. His version of Heartless Angel also seems inferior to Kefka's since it can be blocked, and he's only able to use it when he's low on HP "hey guys I'm almost dead". Pale Horse also seems kinda pathetic to me since it's single-target.

I think he's called Safer-Sephiroth for a reason, and I'm pretty sure it's not because it's a mistranslation of "Seraph" XD

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you know who being a mod I suppose ?

rotfl..
Maybe I overstated my case.
I did beat him rather easily..but I certainly felt the motivation and anticipation of the fight...
I wanted to kill him..because of the things he had done.

As opposed to feeling ambivalent and wanting the game to just be over..as has been the case with recent villains.

I'm not easily offended by other players' opinions.

Opinions vary and everyone is entitled to have a different one/different viewpoint.

:p

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Just because he is powerful enough to unleash something like that it doesn't mean he has to do that. Of course he has never used a Super Nova.

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Then where's the proof that he can do it if he never does it? The one question hardly says anything about what Sephy can actually do. As far as it says, the name of Seph's deathblow is called that and says nothing about the effect or his ability to use it.

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And when your true question was "Why would he use a Meteor if he could use a Super Nova?" - Sephiroth needed a body in Final Fantasy VII to absorb the lifestream. He needed a point where the energy would focus and where he would be. So destroying everything and all the JENOVA cells so he wouldn't even be able to reunite himself would be quite stupid.

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If the point of using Meteor was just to cause a huge boo-boo to the planet so that he could absorb Lifestream, it would make no sense for him to go through all the trouble of getting the Black Materia if he could supposedly just launch a less powerful version of Super Nova that only damages the planet rather than destroys it.

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EDIT: I just want to mention: You are right, there are things in Final Fantasy which are not logical. But the story of Sephiroth, how he combines his powers and everything is written and explained very well - there are some strange things about him as well. Indeed. But almost everything has an explanation.

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"Logical" isn't exactly the main problem here. "Contradictory" is the main problem. Regardless of how well Seph's story is, there's still practically no proof that he can use Super Nova except for a question that probably isn't even related to the plot.

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Originally Posted by Khalin

Okay I originally had... I'll just say it was a "different" response to this post, but decided to delete my message since you-know-who would've found it too "mean".

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Quote for truth.

Dude, can I like sig this quote of yours? :D

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Then where's the proof that he can do it if he never does it? The one question hardly says anything about what Sephy can actually do. As far as it says, the name of Seph's deathblow is called that and says nothing about the effect or his ability to use it.

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If Sephiroth would be able to use this attack in Crisis Core and someone would have seen it it must have been one of his very real-looking and even -feeling illusions. But Sephiroth was not able to use his illusion power at that time because he wasn't able to control JENOVA's abilities - and it doesn't make sense to create such an illusion while just attacking someone but that doesn't matter because he cannot control it during that time. And it was no real Super Nova during that time because then there would be no NPC who could tell you or a planet for Crisis Core itself. So he definitely was not strong enough to unleash Super Nova during Crisis Core and it was just a question for the Sephiroth fans to laugh about and say "Hooray, I was hoping this would be the question of an Sephiroth Elite Fan Club!".
Like we all know numbers, stats and all this does not matter for the true story strength and I really doubt anyone thinks "When a Super Nova hits me I just get % damage, am paralyzed, slowed and confused!". But the scene of the move itself really shows what a character can do. Cloud can use an original Omnislash. He shows it during Advent Children Complete. Sephiroth just blocks it, but Cloud can use it. Vincent can transform into beasts, the characters can summon Summonings/Eidolons/Aeons/Guardian Forces/et cetera. This is a magical fantasy world. Neo X-Death's Almagest is a demonstration of his power as well and he does not only use it during the final battle. He summons the Almagest spheres during the story line as well. Of course magic is unbelievable in our world. But it should not be hard to believe, inhuman creatures like these have enough power destroy planets, solar system, galaxies, et cetera.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

If the point of using Meteor was just to cause a huge boo-boo to the planet so that he could absorb Lifestream, it would make no sense for him to go through all the trouble of getting the Black Materia if he could supposedly just launch a less powerful version of Super Nova that only damages the planet rather than destroys it.

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I am not the creator of Final Fantasy and I do not write the script. And the whole story about the Black Materia was just a filler. It would be a quite precious story if Sephiroth would have used all of his power and abilities to get what he wants. And such things are fillers. Sephiroth was strong enough during the whole story to kill the heroes - and we all know that, even the heroes themselves say before the Final Battle they cannot compare to them and during the whole story they were even weaker. So in case you ask yourself why he hasn't used a Super Nova or something similiar instead of Meteor you just can ask yourself as well why he hasn't killed Cloud while he was sleeping during the time he was sleeping in the ShinRa Headquarters. It simply ends the story and no one wants that. He rather opens their doors so they can follow him. By the way - a Super Nova is a Super Nova. There is no weaker version of it. And a Super Nova doesn't look like the american one of Sephiroth. His japanese original Super Nova is more of a real Super Nova.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

"Logical" isn't exactly the main problem here. "Contradictory" is the main problem. Regardless of how well Seph's story is, there's still practically no proof that he can use Super Nova except for a question that probably isn't even related to the plot.

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I think the fact all the other moves of characters and enemies are real and the mentioned facts which makes a Super Nova impossible in Crisis Core tells you why is has to be his real power during Final Fantasy VII(-1) even without statement.

If you say, there is no official statement you are completely right. But it makes no sense as you can see in my explanation.

This quote option is irritating. I have to edit it too many times.

Let's end it here. I don't want the same thing as last time here. Just keep your opinion like you want it to be.

The thing is that you are just a troll who does not know the truth and how truth works and what an axiom is. Not I have to prove anything. The truth already exists. And you just don't know it.

Safer is a mistranslation of Sepher. See the translation project at my forum.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Safer is a mistranslation of Sepher. See the translation project at my forum.

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I like "Safer" more than "Sepher". "Sephiroth" and his american pronounciation reminds me of "Sepher" well enough. And "Safer" is quite fitting. But vor Bizarro Sephiroth I like "Rebirth Sephiroth" more than "Reverse Sephiroth".

oh my god words

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Like we all know numbers, stats and all this does not matter for the true story strength and I really doubt anyone thinks "When a Super Nova hits me I just get % damage, am paralyzed, slowed and confused!"

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Thank god that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

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Cloud can use an original Omnislash. He shows it during Advent Children Complete. Sephiroth just blocks it, but Cloud can use it. Vincent can transform into beasts, the characters [b]can{/b] summon Summonings/Eidolons/Aeons/Guardian Forces/et cetera.

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And the difference is that these characters have far more proof that they can perform their abilities, but Seph doesn't.

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This is a magical fantasy world. Neo X-Death's Almagest is a demonstration of his power as well and he does not only use it during the final battle. He summons the Almagest spheres during the story line as well. Of course magic is unbelievable in our world. But it should not be hard to believe, inhuman creatures like these have enough power destroy planets, solar system, galaxies, et cetera.

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I'm not saying that the ability to destroy the solar system is an unbelievable in FF. I'm saying that Sephiroth having this ability is what's unbelievable.

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Sephiroth was strong enough during the whole story to kill the heroes - and we all know that, even the heroes themselves say before the Final Battle they cannot compare to them and during the whole story they were even weaker.

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But the characters got stronger. As in all RPGs, the characters develop and grow stronger from the beginning of the game, and by the time they reach the final battle, they all do become strong enough to beat Seph. The fact that they also had Materia to boost their abilities also helped.

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So in case you ask yourself why he hasn't used a Super Nova or something similiar instead of Meteor

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Because he couldn't.

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you just can ask yourself as well why he hasn't killed Cloud while he was sleeping during the time he was sleeping in the ShinRa Headquarters.

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Because he needed Cloud to hand him the Black Materia.

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By the way - a Super Nova is a Super Nova. There is no weaker version of it. And a Super Nova doesn't look like the american one of Sephiroth. His japanese original Super Nova is more of a real Super Nova.

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The fact that Square decided to change it clearly says something about how it was intended to look like. Not that this matters, since he can't do either.

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I think the fact all the other moves of characters and enemies are real and the mentioned facts

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...because these things don't contradict anything said in the plot, and sometimes even have things in the plot which supports the fact that they are real, such as Bahamut.

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which makes a Super Nova impossible in Crisis Core tells you why is has to be his real power during Final Fantasy VII(-1) even without statement.

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...he became stronger than he was in CC. That's not exactly something which suggests that he suddenly gained the power to destroy a solar system.

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This quote option is irritating. I have to edit it too many times.

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There is a quote button on the toolbar above. To add a person's name, put =(name) after QUOTE. So it would look like QUOTE=(name). Make sure to take off the parentheses. Example is:

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Originally Posted by me

text

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Let's end it here. I don't want the same thing as last time here. Just keep your opinion like you want it to be.

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Then don't automatically consider everything that you say is fact and automatically dismiss everything that I say.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Every idiot is able to destroy the Solar System.

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Out of all the anime I've seen, I rarely see villains that can do all of that. There are certainly many powerful ones that have highly destructive powers, but the entire solar system? That's a bit much. And correct me if I'm wrong... but both the examples you gave [Cell and Brolly?] are from DBZ, aren't they? If so, that's a horrible example because it's notoriously the dumbest creation in all anime that most of us have ever seen. It's just Akira Toriyama's horribly-drawn crap made for kids [like 11-15 etc] that give great ammo for people that want to call it "Japanese cartoons". That would be like me saying "American heroes in TV shows are ALWAYS horribly-written and stupid. Look at Power Rangers".

Anyways, I'm not attacking you or anything. I'll be more willing to accept this notion, but I'd prefer examples from more prestigious and mature anime. I won't accept two examples from DBZ.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Safer is a mistranslation of Sepher. See the translation project at my forum.

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Safer-Sephiroth - The Final Fantasy Wiki

KMC Forums - Sephiroth vs. Sesshomaru

How Safer Sephiroth got his name - Final Fantasy VII - Neoseeker Forums

Safer Sephiroth - Final Fantasy Forums

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Thank god that I'm not the only one who thinks this.

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Because it is the truth.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

And the difference is that these characters have far more proof that they can perform their abilities, but Seph doesn't.

...he became stronger than he was in CC. That's not exactly something which suggests that he suddenly gained the power to destroy a solar system.

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I think you don't understand what I wanted to tell you. Of course he became stronger than in Crisis Core. That's fact and everyone knows that. But even though there is a Fan Club question about him he cannot use that move during that time for real - otherwise you would say Super Nova would look different in Crisis Core compared to Super Nova in Final Fantasy VII but this argument would make no sense because he doesn't use Super Nova during that time and so it is pretty logical he simply cannot use this move because he is not strong enough during that time.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

But the characters got stronger. As in all RPGs, the characters develop and grow stronger from the beginning of the game, and by the time they reach the final battle, they all do become strong enough to beat Seph. The fact that they also had Materia to boost their abilities also helped.

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Yes, they got stronger but even directly before the Final Battle they have said they are weaker. And it was shown by the same way Square has shown it with Kefka. Kefka has pushed the characters around with his power and Sephiroth has forced them back with his power. Of course it was teamwork, they were the strongest heroes, et cetera but the characters were still weaker. You do not have to be stronger than someone to beat him. That's the same in every other topic. Just because I beat...a World Champion in a trading card game it doesn't mean I am better than him in this game. I could have been luck. Or bad luck for him. There are so many factors. And as Square says Sephiroth is the strongest and he wasn't even at his limits in Advent Children (I know we are talking about Final Fantasy VII-1) while Cloud was (and we can agree Cloud - and Vincent - are the strongest characters of the hero team, compared to them the other's power hardly counts). So that shows no matter how strong the characters are they are not stronger than him. Because it is not necessary. Sephiroth has his arrogance weakness.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Because he couldn't.

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This is just your opinion and can't be really proven. Like my explanation about why Super Nova is a power demonstration cannot be 100 % proven without Square as well.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Because he needed Cloud to hand him the Black Materia.

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I have to disappoint you but he didn't.

Cloud himself mentions Sephiroth could sacrifice one of his other clones to get the Black Materia. He has said in in the Temple of the Cetra. So he could sacrifice another clone as well who would bring him the Black Materia - because of Final Fantasy VII's definition of "clone" Cloud is a clone of course because he got J-S-cells injected but I think you've understood what I have meant. Cloud was not necessary. There were enough clones. And they have followed the desire to reunite (activated by Sephiroth with JENOVA's head) as well so they would have wandered to the Northern Crater as well (and they did like we all now). Sephiroth could have one clone to activate the trap inside the temple and another one could have brought him the Black Materia. Cloud was not necessary and so it is a filler.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

The fact that Square decided to change it clearly says something about how it was intended to look like. Not that this matters, since he can't do either.

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It doesn't explain why Super Nova should be the only move in Final Fantasy who doesn't show what a character can do. Let us think for just 1 minute you are right (and we will never know), it is fact Sephiroth can use a move called "Super Nova" - why should it look like a Super Nova if he cannot unleash a real Super Nova? This makes no sense. He doesn't have to impress other people. People already fear his power.

Well - now really that's it. This is just a "he can" and "he can't". We don't get far so let's spend our time useful.

And Khalin just because you don't like Dragon Ball the examples are not invalid. They have the power and that's it. I know another fantasy- and anime-like character who is imcomparably strong and is probably the best example. He is not of an anime itself. But he is anime-like as well. One of the well-known forum members here is called like him.

Safer means nothing though, Sepher is kabbalah just as Sephiroth is. Saferoth wouldn't have worked as his name :P

SEPHER YETZIRAH

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Then don't automatically consider everything that you say is fact and automatically dismiss everything that I say.

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I think I have proven I can tell you "You are right." as well. Often enough.

And you often just say "No." and don't even prove why you "are right". So you just dismiss user's posts as well. Sorry. I hope you will think about my words and yourself because maybe you just do not notice.

It is not Seraph, that Wiki is wrong. We should know given we have spent 6 months researching and comparing, and I am in consultation with 10 japanese speakers. look carefully:

Seraph Comb > セラフコーム > Serafu Kōmu > Seraph Comb [anyone still complaining that Sepher Sephiroth is wrong, please note the differences]

セラフ Seraph
セーファ Sepher

]Safer・Sephiroth
セーファ・セフィロス
Seefa Sefirosu
Sepher Sephiroth
[This one always gets attention. Firstly, Sepher Sephiroth is inspired by the Seraph Seraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But Sēfa does not make Seraph. This is a misconception. The word translates to either Sefer or Sepher (both are ok) and is Hebrew/Kabbalistic (as is Sephiroth)
Sephirot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Yetzirah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am told by Gemini that Sepher is closer than Sefer and since Sephiroth is spelled by "Seph" it seems much more logical. Therefore, Sepher Sephiroth is the name. ]

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You do not have to be stronger than someone to beat him.

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Strength/Power exists in many different forms.

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So that shows no matter how strong the characters are they are not stronger than him.

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Individually, no. Except for maybe Cloud.

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Because it is not necessary. Sephiroth has his arrogance weakness.

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Cloud's determination and will IS a form of his strength and it's what allowed him to win in Advent Children.

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This is just your opinion and can't be really proven. Like my explanation about why Super Nova is a power demonstration cannot be 100 % proven without Square as well.

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*facemoltenlava*

oh my god not this again

Alright, let me explain how it works. You brought up the assertion that Sephiroth can use Super Nova and you need to provide proof first as to why your statement is true. You have to do more than say "well it's a possibility with nothing to prove against it." If you can't provide concrete evidence that he can in fact use Super Nova, then I don't need to provide proof as to why the assertion is wrong because it automatically fails on its own.

Here's an example that I like using to explain why this commonly used debate tactic doesn't work:

Child A says that unicorns are real.
Child B says "you can't prove that unicorns are real"
Child A says "that's just your opinion and you can't prove me wrong"

In this case, we all know that Child A's assertion that [unicorns are real] is false due to the fact that he couldn't provide his own proof. Child B didn't need to provide his own proof against Child A if he couldn't provide his own proof in the first place.

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It doesn't explain why Super Nova should be the only move in Final Fantasy who doesn't show what a character can do.

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I'm saying that he couldn't use Super Nova because you haven't provided evidence that he could except for one question that wasn't related to the plot.

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it is fact Sephiroth can use a move called "Super Nova" - why should it look like a Super Nova if he cannot unleash a real Super Nova? This makes no sense. He doesn't have to impress other people. People already fear his power.

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...it's just a name that Square Enix made to sound cool, dude. It doesn't have to do with anything that the actual attack does.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

And Khalin just because you don't like Dragon Ball the examples are not invalid.

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I'll refer you to my analogy again:

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Originally Posted by Khalin

That would be like me saying "American heroes in TV shows are ALWAYS horribly-written and stupid. Look at Power Rangers".

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How does one single show speak for all "American heroes in TV shows"? It doesn't. Your claim was "Every idiot is able to destroy the Solar System". What I'm saying is that a few villains from the same, lame kid's anime, certainly does not prove "Every idiot is able to destroy the Solar System". I'll need examples from just more than one single show, preferably from more credible and prestigious, mature animes as I said. If you could name like 30+ examples all from different anime, I might be more willing to accept this notion [and yes, I'm aware that by you're saying "every idiot", you're just making an exaggeration and you actually mean "most", but still, two guys from one kid's anime doesn't qualify as "most", or even "several"]. There are tons of anime out there, so I think 30+ examples would be a reasonable requirement to accept the notion of "most", but not "every".

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Safer means nothing though

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Yes, I already stated that. Why do you think I pointed out that it was a mistranslation?

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Safer means nothing though, Sepher is kabbalah just as Sephiroth is. Saferoth wouldn't have worked as his name :P

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Who said anything about "Saferoth"? Did you read the links I gave you? Did you even read my post?

Every credible Final Fantasy source and forum that I can get my hands on through google indicates that "Safer" is a mistranslation of "Seraph", which would be consistent with how many wings he has in that form [Seraph was the highest choir of angel and had six wings, also in Kefka's case]. Just type "Seraph Sephiroth" into the google search engine and read the results you get. No clue where this "Saferoth" is coming from.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

It is not Seraph, that Wiki is wrong. We should know given we have spent 6 months researching and comparing, and I am in consultation with 10 japanese speakers. look carefully:

Seraph Comb > セラフコーム > Serafu Kōmu > Seraph Comb [anyone still complaining that Sepher Sephiroth is wrong, please note the differences]

セラフ Seraph

]Safer・Sephiroth
セーファ・セフィロス
Seefa Sefirosu
Sepher Sephiroth
[This one always gets attention. Firstly, Sepher Sephiroth is inspired by the Seraph Seraph - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
But Sēfa does not make Seraph. This is a misconception. The word translates to either Sefer or Sepher (both are ok) and is Hebrew/Kabbalistic (as is Sephiroth)
Sephirot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Yetzirah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sefer Torah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I am told by Gemini that Sepher is closer than Sefer and since Sephiroth is spelled by "Seph" it seems much more logical. Therefore, Sepher Sephiroth is the name. ]

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I can confirm that. I have the japanese version and "Sepher" ist correct.

Trashypedia is the last website I would trust. I website were every single idiot can edit something? even correct things? No, thanks!

Khalin, I hope you don't really think I would post 30 names here and now just because you want it.

And PuPu the same mistakes you make all the time is:

Step 1 - A says something
Step 2 - B (you) says "no, it is the opposite, prove you are right!"
Step 3 - A doesn't prove it because maybe there are not enough official facts and says "you want to tell me you are right now prove what you have said" - in my case I simply cannot decide what's true because I am no member of Square-Enix and can only use what they "give" me
Step 4 - B (you) says "ha! you are wrong because you cannot prove it (which is wrong as well because I cannot decide what's right about Final Fantasy and just because I cannot prove something it is not automatically wrong, Square could still have decided it is the truth but they just didn't want to tell us (example)
Step 5 - B (you) says "i do not have to prove what I have said! you cannot prove your argument you are wrong and I am right!" but you forget you have no more right than I to decide what's wrong in Final Fantasy and who knows? just because person A doesn't prove it you argument is not automatically right and as long as you have not proven your argument right it is as worthy as the unproven argument - because it is unproven as well.

So it is simply 1:1 and not 0:1.

Also it is not a natural law the first one who says something has to prove something so the second one can then try to prove his argument. It can be vice-versa.

EDIT: I have forgotten to mention it is impossible for Square to show he can really use a Super Nova in the story. And I think you know why. It is obvious. But actually I have already mentioned. And it doesn't mean just because they didn't show, he is not able to do this. It would be just hard to tell how the story continues when he uses a Super Nova.
Also like I have told you Sephiroth is the character with the strongest will which is officially stated by Square and Cloud's will is very "weak" which is officially stated by Square as well. So this is definitely not his advantage he can use to defeat Sephiroth.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Khalin, I hope you don't really think I would post 30 names here and now just because you want it.

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So you have none to produce then? I'm just assuming you don't have any other examples besides DBZ. Even at least 10 different animes would come closer to qualifying as "Every idiot can".

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Child A says that unicorns are real.
Child B says "you can't prove that unicorns are real"
Child A says "that's just your opinion and you can't prove me wrong"

In this case, we all know that Child A's assertion that [unicorns are real] is false due to the fact that he couldn't provide his own proof. Child B didn't need to provide his own proof against Child A if he couldn't provide his own proof in the first place.

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Yeah. The burden of proof falls on the one who asserts the positive.

I'll be more inclined to concede the Sepher point though, however based on your post I have this feeling that you didn't even read what I said correctly which is the only thing that really irks me right now. I'll still stand by my notion at least being a reasonable one, since however wrong, it's consistent with the fact that his final form is a six-winged angel [which is a Seraph by mythology] and that it seems widely agreed upon. Also, stating that "trashypedia" is untrustworthy just because of one or few examples of error is a logical fallacy.

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Yeah. The burden of proof falls on the one who asserts the positive.

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Thank god I'm not the only one that thinks this as well :D

Also, going to point out that Wikipedia is pretty good most of the time, because it cites its information and any vandalism is easily fixed.

It's wikias that you have to watch out for, which are typically unmoderated and unsourced trash. For example, KHwikia is usually full of misinformation about the plot.

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Originally Posted by Khalin

So you have none to produce then?

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>_> Of course I can. I just don't want another debate about 30 characters in this Sephiroth thread. It is 12:30 AM where I live and I am tired.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Yeah. The burden of proof falls on the one who asserts the positive.

Thank god I'm not the only one that thinks this as well

Also, going to point out that Wikipedia is pretty good most of the time, because it cites its information and any vandalism is easily fixed.

It's wikias that you have to watch out for, which are typically unmoderated and unsourced trash. For example, KHwikia is usually full of misinformation about the plot.

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I have posted some useful informations I think it was 2 years ago - and everyone was able to prove them right - but they have been removed. What a good website.

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Step 3 - A doesn't prove it because maybe there are not enough official facts

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This means the same thing as "not enough evidence" to support A's stance.

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in my case I simply cannot decide what's true because I am no member of Square-Enix and can only use what they "give" me

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That is analogous to saying that we can't decide that unicorns don't exist because we aren't God.

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which is wrong as well because I cannot decide what's right about Final Fantasy and just because I cannot prove something it is not automatically wrong

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Um, yes it is. Just like how somebody can't prove that unicorns are real, they are also automatically wrong because they can't provide proof that they are right.

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Square could still have decided it is the truth but they just didn't want to tell us

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Which is analogous to "God could have made unicorns but just decided not show them to us humans."

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but you forget you have no more right than I to decide what's wrong in Final Fantasy

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Um, yes I do. I could make the assertion that Cloud has the ability to turn into a purple elephant and use the saying "well this is a possibility that Square Enix could have just decided not to tell us about this fact" but it wouldn't make me right.

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just because person A doesn't prove it you argument is not automatically right and as long as you have not proven your argument right it is as worthy as the unproven argument - because it is unproven as well.

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But I don't have to prove anything, until you do so first.

The same is the case with the unicorns. You can't prove that they real and you can't prove that they aren't real, but they aren't real because there is no proof. Until is proof for the positive, the negative doesn't need any proof.

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Also it is not a natural law the first one who says something has to prove something so the second one can then try to prove his argument.

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No, it pretty much is the way that I said it. If we're going by your rules, then I'm making the claim that I'm Tetsuya Nomura and that I'm right because you can't prove that I'm not Tetsuya Nomura. Also, unicorns are real because you don't have evidence to prove that they are not real.

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I have forgotten to mention it is impossible for Square to show he can really use a Super Nova in the story. And I think you know why. It is obvious. But actually I have already mentioned.

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There still isn't evidence that he can use it, though.

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And it doesn't mean just because they didn't show, he is not able to do this.

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No, it pretty much does. Cloud isn't shown to be able to turn into a purple elephant, so we know that he can't.

>>> Overratedroth rules!!..:luca:
BTW, Kimahri had an even crazier supernova and no one seems to complain..

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Originally Posted by PuPu

That is analogous to saying that we can't decide that unicorns don't exist because we aren't God.

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Which is right because we are not god and just because we say, they do not begin to exist. We are humans and we cannot change reality. Reality is independent of human beings and. We just can say "Yes, it is." or "No, it isn't." but just because we say that it doesn't change the fact itself. As long as it is not the truth, it is nothing but an illusion. And the comment "When someone or something isn't shown it does not exist." is wrong as well. Just because you have never seen me speaking german I am existing as a german speaking guy. And you haven't met most of people in the world. But they exist. If you really think they way you think is right people do not die as long as no one sees it. You don't have the power to show me unicorns do not exist because you are not all-powerful and you don't know everything. Truth is truth and false is false and it will never change just because someone who isn't all-powerful can('t) prove what he says. And it's the same with your words. And your words interfere because it is not the way I think, it is the way you think. You say I cannot prove comment A of mine so you do not have to prove your comment B and comment B is automatically right. And it is not. Of course I cannot prove you are not Tetsuya Nomura as long as you don't stand in front of me. But it is you with your "logic" and not me. I say I cannot prove it, because it is possible you are Tetsuya Nomura. That doesn't depend on me. But you say I cannot prove the opposite so you automatically are Tetsuya Nomura. To explain it more understanable: You think when I say "You are not Tetsuya Nomura." and you say "I am Tetsuya Nomura." and I cannot prove I am right you automatically are Tetsuya Nomura because you were the second one in this discussion and the second one automatically wins in case the first one cannot prove his argument and this is wrong. And do not say it is the way I think because almost all sentences of yours say that it is the way you think. You have even said as long as I cannot prove my words right your words are right which is the proof you think this way.

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Originally Posted by PuPu

Um, yes it is. Just like how somebody can't prove that unicorns are real, they are also automatically wrong because they can't provide proof that they are right.
_______________

Um, yes I do. I could make the assertion that Cloud has the ability to turn into a purple elephant and use the saying "well this is a possibility that Square Enix could have just decided not to tell us about this fact" but it wouldn't make me right.

______________

The same is the case with the unicorns. You can't prove that they real and you can't prove that they aren't real, but they aren't real because there is no proof. Until is proof for the positive, the negative doesn't need any proof.

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Okay, definitely not.
Your words as a human being and your thoughts as a human being are not more "powerful" than mine. The truth is not dependent by you. It exists without you. Just because I say "You will die." and you say "No, I don't." and I cannot prove you will die you won't die. When Person A has killed Person B and you say "No, it was Person C." and I have no proof Person A was the killer - but it is the truth, because he has killed Person B - you are not right that Person C has killed Person B. You will never change the fact it was Person A. Human law is not the same as law of reality. Of course you will just quote this and say the opposite but is doesn't matter because your words don't mean anything as long as they interfere reality and the existing truth.

And if you really think your words are strong enough to change reality and the truth with it just because someone else canniot prove the opposite, then this discussion is over. Because then you really don't get any respect from me. You are not the Big Boss himself.

And now I am really angry so I will end this. I do not waste my time for people who think unproven arguments are as strong as Gods will itself. And be sure I will never answer to you because this is the greatest and dumbest thing you could have written. You are not God and your words don't have more power than mine. And you can never prove the opposite because after all you are nothing but a human being. Your words are just wrong because the are wrong (and when you are right you are right but your wrong words will never be right at the moment they are wrong and vice-versa) and you are not God but a human being with limits. And everyone here knows that. And if your next post begins with "You cannot prove I am not God so I am God." then do not wonder no one wants to talk to you or answer to your very strong posts with anime guys who are laughing at people or your skilled and provoking "> ...." posts which "indeed" is very mighty.

You really know nothing about Final Fantasy and Kingdom Hearts and you really know nothing about the difference of truth and opinion. And you should go back to school for learning how an argument is built.

I feel sorry for you.

So, farewell. Have a nice day and life.

Please get back to the thread's topic and end this argument about arguments. Further off-topic discussion will be deleted. Thank you.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend ya, dude.

Anyways, Sephiroth is a pretty cool guy. eh kills Aerith and doesn't afraid of anything.

I like him as a character, but not so much as a villain.

The problem with sephiroth is that he disapoints. The game spends the majority of disc one building him up (Slaughtering everyone at shinra, displaying his power in the nibelheim flashback, skerwing the midgar zolom and of course stabbing aerith) With all of this, we're loving this mysterious and powerful character who's intentions aren't clear but seems to be planning something bad. Let's find out more about him, let's see what else he does, let's fight him! But alas, his plan just seems to be "I will kill you all and become all powerful", his next step is to disappear and sleep in the northen crater until the end of the game.

Your mysterious cool villain becomes your average narcissistic meglomaniac "i want to destroy the world" stereotypical villain who does nothing from halfway into the game right up until the end where you get to fight him for 5 minutes before he transforms into some weird floaty thing then dies. How uninspired and very anti-climactic. Sephiroth fans need to address this before claiming he is the ultimate villain

is it Sephiroth's fault he underwhelms or Square's fault ?
I would argue it's Square's fault..the writers and producers...

Of course when I argued this on another thread..that Square should bring in some new blood people panned the idea.

I also wonder if we suffer from some cultural differences with the Japanese. That while we prefer our villains to be more dynamic maybe the Japanese are content to look for other things.:)

Do you think Sephiroth had white pubic hair?

The only thing that ever confused me about sephiroth...

I mean i love the guy

favorite ff villain

one of my favorite videogame bad guys

yadayada

Not gonna say hes one of the best ever but he holds a place in my sternum


but yeah umm....one part that always bothered me is like...

he uses the masamune to kill the president right?

but it stays there soo...

HOW DOES HE GET IT BACK LATER OMFG ITS INSANSE!!! :eek:

now that is a good point. I am guessing that the explanation is that Jenova (remember that the real Sephiroth used Jenova) was able to create it....the same way it could mimic the appearance of sephiroth/Tifa.

It wasn't really his sword basically...or a sword at all in a way if that theory is true.

Most of the FF villains are farily generic. Kefka was probably the most successful of the villains as has been pointed out he definetly did the most damage and the most evil next I think only Yu Yevon can compare to how bad Kefka was. Yu yevon was probably worse because his rampage lasted 1,000 years not 1. But Kefka is a fairly boring Character. He doesn't have a very compelling back story and his personality is frankly a flat out Joker rip off.

Now I think Seph is just the opposite He and a compellign backstory and a decent motivation for what he was doing besides "I'm evil and crazy" but he wasn't very successful at it, and he really at times; came across more like a whiny mommas boy then some terribly evil threat.

Sephiroth himself is a pretty :bou::bou::bou::bou:ty villain. He sits in a goddamn cave for most of the game and is generally an emo momma's boy.

However, the concept of Sephiroth is great. He leads you on a chase across the world, dragging the biggest goddamn company in the world along as well. He makes Cloud freak out and lose his :bou::bou::bou::bou:, and he gets Aeris killed. While none of these are "Sephiroth", it's still his concept and so he's actually not nearly as overrated as people think.

None of that made sense, did it? Ehh, at least it's not as tl;dr as the rest of this thread :monster:

He doesn't sit in a cave :P He sits inside a huge crater and makes himself solid everywhere else by using an alien lifeform.

The whole backstory of Sephiroth, as mentioned, is pretty decent. The "Cloud's Past" section is amazing.

The problem lies in, as also stated, the fact this backstory was rendered unimportant.

Sephiroth as of Nibelheim: Thinks he's doing the right thing. He's avenging his "Mother" because the humans are responsible for her and her race's destruction.
Well, to an extent. More like they sat back and let them get destroyed. (according to what he knew)

Sephiroth as of FF7: KNows he's not a Cetra. Jenova was the one who wiped out the Ancients and humanity is relatively innocent.
He...just doesn't care.

Sephiroth could have been a good tragic villain. Why do you all think the Jenova controlling Sephiroth theory wa sso popular? It gave him some actual depth. The guy was misled and used by the most evil thing in the universe into thinking he was doing the right thing.

But alas, reality is always worse than fantasy. In reality, Sephiroth just gave up on any pretense of nobility. Now he just wants to be a god.
Whooptydoo, Sephy my lad. You went from Interesting to Bland pretty quick there.

Also Yu Yevon wasn't a bad guy. Least not nearly as bad as Kefka.

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Originally Posted by Pride

VIII. Let's be honest here, Ultimecia has no reason for being evil, guys.

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Of course she does. If you looked like her, you'd be angry too.

People will be saying that FFVII related things are overrated till the dawn of time, but the truth of the matter is the reason it's considered the most popular FF is because it's boss.

yeah I can agree to that, Sephiroth being misled would have been more of a story and been more flexible but what we have already is still pretty awesome, if we simply forget his motivation is being power mad/sick of people/insane. At least it shows you why he ended up that way somewhat, being that he was a genetic experiment and lost his mind.

"Greatest villain" is far too vague. You can compare too many different areas, and then there are also the different worlds they are in. Would Kefka have dominated without his armies doing all of his work for him? Sephiroth seemingly did all his work on his own. Having said that, you could also argue that surely any true great villain will command an army, manipulating many men to do his bidding for him. Of course, then you could also compare pure strength - is Kefka more powerful? But power alone will never get you anywhere so long as you are able to be defeated - would Sephiroth be too quick, too deadly in his movements for Kefka? There is too much to debate to ever truly decide which would defeat the other in a fight. After all, if the player controls the characters in either game, they can lose the game and see a Game Over screen. They don't have to beat him. It would obviously be kind of silly, but you get the idea. Assuming they are defeated, however, do you also consider the manner in which they were defeated? Can they come back again of their own will, somehow? Is that truly defeat? Is that just a case of one set of playable characters being weaker than another?

Again, it's always going to be down to sheer opinion: Which villain do you prefer? If you're going for the overall greatest villain based on a personal opinion, does that opinon count? Do you prefer the opinion of many to the opinion of few? But what about percentage of those that have played and completed both games, which percentage prefer which? It's a toughy. So that's why I stick to personal opinion alone.

I like Sephiroth better because for me, I prefer an evil character that is capable of doing things on his own rather than using an army. I prefer an evil character to also be someone who I look at and go "Oh, he's pretty evil" rather than "What the hell is that?" Sephiroth fits those bills better than Kefka. Obviously. I like how Sephiroth doesn't run rampant destroying the world but rather does exactly what he personally desires - getting rid of the individuals he wishes to rid himself of for whatever reason, and only bothering with mass destruction of the world when it is done in a way that will not only benefit himself but also in a way that will wipe out everyone in a single blow. Impressive, I'd say.

These are my kind of reasons.

To me, both Kefka and Sephiroth are great, but for different reasons.
Kefka was all about hate. His cruelty, cowardice, and the way things seemed to allways go his way no matter what you did, made you hate him.
Sephiroth on the other hand, was all about fear and intimidation. Everyone refers to him with respect and/or fear in the story, he did things considered impossible for you(ex: killing the Zolom early in the story), had an intimidating appearance, and there was something otherworldly about him(ex: when he phases through a wall[or the ground] like a ghost) due to his connection with Jenova.
Even his theme("Those Choosen by the Planet") was a scary music(or at least it was supposed to be).
They both are good villains, in their own style.


And please guys, stop giving credit to Jenova for Sephiroth's actions.
In the story of FFVII, Jenova is nothing more than a corpse, being used because of the power of it's cells.
Before FFVII starts, Jenova and it's cells are nothing more than a plot-device, used by ShinRa. And from the beginnig of FFVII to the end of the ACC movie, Jenova(or more accuratelly, it's brain-dead body[that shares it's DNA with Sephiroth]) is just an extension of Sephiroth's will. They are one and the same, basically.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

"Greatest villain" is far too vague. You can compare too many different areas, and then there are also the different worlds they are in. Would Kefka have dominated without his armies doing all of his work for him? Sephiroth seemingly did all his work on his own. Having said that, you could also argue that surely any true great villain will command an army, manipulating many men to do his bidding for him. Of course, then you could also compare pure strength - is Kefka more powerful? But power alone will never get you anywhere so long as you are able to be defeated - would Sephiroth be too quick, too deadly in his movements for Kefka? There is too much to debate to ever truly decide which would defeat the other in a fight. After all, if the player controls the characters in either game, they can lose the game and see a Game Over screen. They don't have to beat him. It would obviously be kind of silly, but you get the idea. Assuming they are defeated, however, do you also consider the manner in which they were defeated? Can they come back again of their own will, somehow? Is that truly defeat? Is that just a case of one set of playable characters being weaker than another?

Again, it's always going to be down to sheer opinion: Which villain do you prefer? If you're going for the overall greatest villain based on a personal opinion, does that opinon count? Do you prefer the opinion of many to the opinion of few? But what about percentage of those that have played and completed both games, which percentage prefer which? It's a toughy. So that's why I stick to personal opinion alone.

I like Sephiroth better because for me, I prefer an evil character that is capable of doing things on his own rather than using an army. I prefer an evil character to also be someone who I look at and go "Oh, he's pretty evil" rather than "What the hell is that?" Sephiroth fits those bills better than Kefka. Obviously. I like how Sephiroth doesn't run rampant destroying the world but rather does exactly what he personally desires - getting rid of the individuals he wishes to rid himself of for whatever reason, and only bothering with mass destruction of the world when it is done in a way that will not only benefit himself but also in a way that will wipe out everyone in a single blow. Impressive, I'd say.

These are my kind of reasons.

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The best post in this thread.

I thought Hojo was the best villain of FFVII.

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Originally Posted by Monol

he uses the masamune to kill the president right?

but it stays there soo...

HOW DOES HE GET IT BACK LATER OMFG ITS INSANSE!!! :eek:

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Square has solved this problem by giving him the ability to summon Masamune by will power. And actually it is fitting because it doesn't fit for Sephiroth to walk around with Masamune on his back or side.

And Hojo is insane. What an irony Sephiroth hates him that much because he thinks he is no great scientist compared to Doctor Gast. He hates his own father without knowing about the truth and Hojo even wanted him to become stronger at the end of Final Fantasy VII-1 right before he had the plan to become Omega.

And his motivation is not the desire to become stronger. It is his meaning of life. Sephiroth has accepted his legacy of JENOVA because he did understand JENOVA is more powerful than the Ancients plus even though he is emotionless there still are some moments which amuse him - torturing Cloud. Sephiroth is enormously arrogant and being beaten by a weak ShinRa soldier really was a shock for him (but only the first time, he doesn't care because he can come back) - probably even a greater shock than experiencing he is not only a human being. And that's part of his motivation.

Oh, and JENOVA is not brain-dead. Of course "her" body is dead but it still can control it's own will - but we cannot see that much of it because Sephiroth's will dominates it and with it the cells. So the brain itself wouldn't work of course but the soul itself would work and ass long as Sephiroth's and JENOVA's will/soul are controlled by themselves they can regenerate and reactivate their body so they can restore their brain of course as well. The ability of the reunion is a bit more difficult than it is actually used by JENOVA because you don't have to combine the head and the rest of the cells for the reunion. At least Sephiroth has a stronger reunion. He just needs some cells and then he uses his shapeshifting ability to reunite himself, like he did in Final Fantasy VII in the ShinRa Headquarters and in Advent Children. Of course "Reunion" is not the perfet name of it - other than the original process of JENOVA's reunion - but well - in Final Fantasy VII Advent Children this thing is called "Reunion" because a part of Sephiroth's soul merges with JENOVA cells and because it is the desire to reunite himself. A desire Kadaj doesn't understand because he has a new personality. He knows Sephiroth will return. But he doesn't know and understand why.

i would say that tim roth is neither underrated nor overrated.

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Originally Posted by Pride

Now I'm not just saying this because I hear people saying FFVII in general is overrated but I'm pretty sure Sephiroth is an extremely overrated villain.

The worst thing he does in the entire game, if I recall correctly, is burn down Cloud's village which has a total population of about 16 give or take a few NPC's. Whereas in the game previous, Kefka poisons an entire kingdom's water supply in not even the first 30 or so minutes of the game.

He's called a legendery warrior and whatnot and they like to talk about his unimaginable strength but don't just talk about it, show us! In the game he's barely seen and he's quite intimidating but it always just ends up in him making fun of Cloud, leaving, and a Jenova battle...


I. Garland found a crazy loophole in the time-space continuum.

II. Didn't bother to get far in II.

III. Same for III.

IV. Golbez took over the world's strongest kingdom and pretty much had a more-than-global (Overworld and underworld!) rampage.

V. Didn't get far enough in V for Ex-Death. ;_;

VI. Kefka actually destroys the world and becomes the god of magic. (We have our winner, folks.)

VII. Sephiroth is overrated.

VIII. Let's be honest here, Ultimecia has no reason for being evil, guys.

And so on and so forth.

Rant over! Can you agree with me?

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Actually:
Cloud kills sephiroth two times , so how much of a badass i he really ?
the villain gets killed by some lame shinra troop who isnt first class but just some random troop :P
So i agree with you , he is overratedroth :P
but in the battles hes an angry motherf***er :D

Actually, if you think about it, isn't Jenova the real villain? You fight HER more times than you fight Sephiroth, and he's just a product of her anyway. Sephiroth is supposedly just "cooler" than a giant pink fetus with boobs.

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Originally Posted by Clo

Actually, if you think about it, isn't Jenova the real villain?

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No. Jenova was a puppet, not even in control of her own body.
It was Jenova's body there, but who was interacting with you through it was Sephiroth.
It was allways Sephiroth.

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You fight HER more times than you fight Sephiroth,

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You fight Golbez more times than you fight Zemus, and you fight Beatrix more times than you fight Kuja. So I guess Golbez and Beatrix are the real villains of their games, right? :roll2

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and he's just a product of her anyway.

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Kuja is just a product of Garland too, but that doesn't make Garland the main villain of FFIX. Nor does the Esper injected inside Kefka(the one responsible for his his magic power) make him not be the main villain.

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Sephiroth is supposedly just "cooler" than a giant pink fetus with boobs.

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Oversimplification of Jenova's nature to make Sephiroth look bad. Sorry, but that's not gonna work.

Whoa, what a response. :|

I understand the counterarguments for the latter two sentences of mine, and I said them rather lightly, so your responses are correct.

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No. Jenova was a puppet, not even in control of her own body.
It was Jenova's body there, but who was interacting with you through it was Sephiroth.
It was allways Sephiroth.

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But I would like a little evidence of this. Either I missed something in the game, or maybe this is elaborated for the canon in spin-offs, but I was always under the impression that Sephiroth was NOT controlling Jenova, and her very cells had some sort of bizarre cognizance, so even divided she's still a functioning and self-controlling alien life form.

Unless there's some canon evidence, then this is just your interpretation of Jenova. If there's something in the FFVII I missed, then I fold.

EDIT: Actually, seeing as how I am bored, here is some evidence from the Final Fantasy Wiki that Jenova is a cognizant life form who is in fact controlling Sephiroth:

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Four years later, the remains of Jenova housed in Shinra Headquarters morphed into the shape of Sephiroth, and massacred many people in the Shinra building

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There, Sephiroth and Jenova joined together their wills, becoming as one

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once the cells of Jenova have been separated from the main body, they will try to return back to her. If they are inside a host body, they can influence its mind and body so that it moves to the Reunion

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Sephiroth does what he does because of Jenova. Yes, Sephiroth is the main villain blah blah blah because he's the one you fight, but Jenova is in charge the entire time, she's the root of it all, so it all happens because of her. This occurs in a way more indepth than even Garland's role as a puppet master, I believe.

Sephiroth is like a face to Jenova. They're joint in their main-villain-ness.

JENOVA is the source of all evil. It all began with JENOVA once "she" arrived at the planet 2000 years before the story - and even before that it travelled around to absorb planets. But it is not the main villain. And it happens all because of Sephiroth. That is how it is. He became the new JENOVA at the moment his mind got stronger and he wanted to rule all souls.

And Sephiroth controls JENOVA's headless body. Not JENOVA itself does, so he is controlling it. He started its Reunion. Not JENOVA itself. He wanted it to start the reunion and then he has shapestifted its headless body for his own purposes. He is the perfect form of JENOVA because he has "her" abilities and even a greater will than her and JENOVA already was most likely the most powerful being before him.

And using Wikipedia for Final Fantasy in a discussion is the greatest joke ever. Every single idiot can edit Wikipedia, so even if there are 2 guys who write the truth, 8 other guys who don't have an idea will edit it. Square knows it way better than Wikipedia.

Thank you, Sephiroth. Your response was a lot more clear and explanatory. Especially this:

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

He became the new JENOVA at the moment his mind got stronger and he wanted to rule all souls.

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That actually jogs my memory a bit. I think I remember that from the game or one of its spin offs.

But I'm still dubious about Sephiroth "starting" Reunion. Don't the Jenova cells just do this naturally? How is that Sephiroth used Jenova to start this? Wouldn't it be whatever willpower remains in Sephiroth taking advantage of Jenova's very nature for his own goals?

Also, in the end, Jenova accomplishes her goals via Sephiroth.

Actually there is no explanation for it. Sephiroth just wanted to restore JENOVA. And both Sephiroth and JENOVA control reunion by their own will, not the cells itself do it. So they can decide when they want to start the reunion. And it would be idiotic to start the reunion before the story starts because Final Fantasy VII needs a story.

But Hojo wanted JENOVA to show him the reunion as well. That's why he placed the body in the headquarters. He thought the body would be the main part for the reunion - so the remaining cells would go to the place where the body is. But no, the head is the main part. Sephiroth had JENOVA's head and he controlled the cells so he wanted the head to call Cloud and the other clones.

The reunion of Advent Children is another form of the reunion, like I have already mentioned. It is exactly what Sephiroth does when he shapeshifts JENOVA's headless body into one of his own. I don't know why they decided to call it reunion as well (because they haven't explained) - but now it is how it is. Actually this shapeshifting ability is way more powerful than the reunion because Sephiroth can create an exact copy of his own body and so he is reborn with a new body and with his original will which makes him the "old" and original Sephiroth as powerful as ever. He doesn't even need a new complete reunion. However this shapeshifting ability is already explained by Sephiroth, Iphalna and the Ultimania Omega. It's cool Sephiroth can use it with JENOVA cells which aren't even his own. So it is more powerful. Would Sephiroth still be able to control Cloud he could even transform his body into a new Sephiroth body for his own purposes.

However, Sephiroth doesn't have all these power and abilities without reason. He is made to be such a cool and powerful antagonist. So he is definitely not overrated. But what should I say. I hate this ridiculus anti Final Fantasy VII hype, like the anti Final Fantasy VII "hypers" hate FF VII.

Jenova is cooler than Sephiroth.

JENOVA is just a giant tick with two tentacles. That's not cool.

EDIT@FL: You really have no idea.

EDIT II: I love it how Crystal posts everything I have already posted and obviously doesn't understand really everything.

I thought Jenova was cooler! Haha. She's an alien lifeform with a bizarre mutated female body that works as a parasite. I love the concept of Jenova.

Jenova has apparently succeeded where dear ol' Seph failed ie. she's corrupted entire planets and traveled through space.

Plus when you listen to Ifalna describe how Jenova wiped out the Ancients and the Planet itself made all the WEAPONs just to try and stop her/it, it really impresses upon you how monstrous and powerful Jenova is.

I liked Sephiroth back when the game's graphics were too crap to tell how ridiculous he looked. It annoys me, though, that Sephiroth himself has so little involvement in the majority of the game's events and that it's mostly just Jenova trying to reunite.

So in short, yes, I agree: Kefka FTW.

Kuja is the best FF villain.

...what? Kefka was mentioned so I'm gonna fanboy for my fave villain too.

Reading through the posts, one thing's for sure, Kefka and Sephiroth are two of the most "insert your choice here" villains.
One thing about Final Fantasy games in general is they REALLY make you hate the villain. They really make you anxious to get to them to wring their necks.
From that perspective I think Sephiroth is more successful in doing that than Kefka. Why? in general people will hate more someone who kills their child than someone who kills one million people on the other side of the globe. Sure, Kefka destroys the world, but Sephiroth kills the ones close to you, characters you learn to love. I know it's a game, but I really felt an emptiness when he kills Aerith. Then Sephiroth makes you do a lot of his work than just steals it from you and laughs in your face. I know, Kefka does the same when he uses you to get the Espers, but, I don't know, Sephiroth is more personal. And this is the bottom line: of all villains I fought in 25+ years Sephiroth will always be the one who got most personal.

As far as evil goes, Kefka is probably more evil than Sephiroth, but I think it's unfair to base it just on the lack of accomplishments. Is Bin Ladden any less evil than Hitler? Or was Saddam Hussein any less evil than Stalin?
Now I will give Kefka's fans this: what makes Kefka great is because he just is evil, he just wants to destroy everything, there's no reason behind it, there's no justification. I always tell people: even Hitler didn't wake up in the morning and say "I'm evil and I'll kill people because I'm evil (or because I want to kill people)". In his mind Hitler had justification. Of all the famous villains only the joker in the Dark Knight is evil without a reason. Which I think is the main reason the joker in Dark Knight was one hell of a villain.
As far as the final battle, kefka's one sick bastard, I was a little disappointed with Sephiroth's final battle. But I liked a lot more the end story of FF7 than FF6.

Last, the Jenova/Sephiroth story line is a lot more interesting than Kefka's story line.
So personally I'd vote Sephiroth as the "most" villain, but definitely Kefka comes in a close second and the joker even a closer third.

What's the point in justifying whether you like the villian? That wasn't the only reason to play the game that you know about.

What if we began the game as a duel like Squall and Seifer? Cloud vs. Sephiroth? We have a hero and a villian in this case because we know they both have something to protect.

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Originally Posted by Greatermaximus

What's the point in justifying whether you like the villian?

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It's a thread about which villain you think is the best. What else would you say in the thread but which villain you like and why?

I mean, if you're going to get down to it, nothing we say on this forum will ever really matter on a global scale, especially when what we're discussing is a video game. I'm not sure what you're getting at, here.

The concept of Jenova(a powerful creature with control over it's cells and the ability to regenerate/reunite them when split, and the ability to mimic other people and affect their minds) is the same concept of Post-Nibel Sephiroth, because they are one and the same now.
The only difference is that Sephiroth doesn't let parasitic instincts guide all his actions(this is why he wants to become a god, instead of only destroying everything for destruction's sake, like Jenova did).

And about Reunion... After falling in the Lifestream, Sephiroth merged with Jenova's head and started calling for Reunion himself. That's why the Reunion happened at the Crater(where he was located) and not at the ShinRa building(where Jenova's main body was initially located). Hojo himself explains that in the game.

Sephiroth and Jenova are one now.
Whoever think that Jenova is(or was) cooler/better/stronger/more-interesting than Sephiroth(after Nibelheim), didn't understand the story very well.

Is there an objective view?

There's definately facts involved with this story. Like in your sig the planet didn't fight back because the statues misalignment was too much for it to handle.

But that story is unwritten and inconclusive. It's hard if not impossible to justify and determine how much great or worse Kefka was a villian based on global destruction.

A bad deed is still a bad deed. Kefka and Sephiroth are both guilty of murder, trespassing, pillaging, and paraside.

Maybe one and/or the other succeeded in more ways but considering the level of destruction I don't see an objective argument for arguing best.

I'm not sure if this debate is going anywhere because in order to like someone over another you'd have to be favoritistic.

In reality and til the end of time I'm sure the Kefka/Seph fan bases will be divided on this. Especially those who choose one villian over the other.

In the very end there's no way to know which one is better and probably doesn't matter.

We can also leave it with a double negative.

"Most likely Kef and Seph feared each other for their differences, but were absolutely terrified at their similarities."

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

Sephiroth and Jenova are one now.
Whoever think that Jenova is(or was) cooler/better/stronger/more-interesting than Sephiroth(after Nibelheim), didn't understand the story very well.

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Er, finding Jenova more interesting doesn't mean there's a lack of comprehension for the storyline. She does have a background story, you know. Which is interesting. Therefore, I find her cooler, and more interesting, and I understand the game, so.

It's called subjectivity.

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Originally Posted by Greatermaximus

Like in your sig the planet didn't fight back because the statues misalignment was too much for it to handle.

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No, the planet didn't fight back because FFVI's planet is not a living and conscious being.
My sig shows that "Kefka is better because he destroyed the world" is not a good argument, because Kefka didn't have to go against the world itself to win. He didn't have an opposition as big as Sephiroth's(fighting against Avalanche, ShinRa, and the Planet itself, is harder than just fighting against the Returners). That's my point.

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Originally Posted by Clo

Er, finding Jenova more interesting doesn't mean there's a lack of comprehension for the storyline. She does have a background story, you know. Which is interesting. Therefore, I find her cooler, and more interesting, and I understand the game, so.

It's called subjectivity.

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Perhaps I didn't express myself well. What I meant is, saying that Jenova is cooler than Sephiroth because of what she is(her nature), is a fallacy, because Sephiroth and Jenova are identical in nature by now.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Clo

Er, finding Jenova more interesting doesn't mean there's a lack of comprehension for the storyline. She does have a background story, you know. Which is interesting. Therefore, I find her cooler, and more interesting, and I understand the game, so.

It's called subjectivity.

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Perhaps I didn't express myself well. What I meant is, saying that Jenova is cooler than Sephiroth because of what she is(her nature), is a fallacy, because Sephiroth and Jenova are identical in nature by now.

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But, at one point they were separate identities, which makes it possible for an individual to prefer one over the other.

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Originally Posted by Greatermaximus

Kefka and Sephiroth are both guilty of murder, trespassing, pillaging, and paraside.

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Trespassing? To be honest, I think the heroes are all guilty of that too haha (except in XIII because you can't run into random people's houses and steal the stuff in their chests).

I would say that Kefka is probably less cruel than Sephiroth. Kefka wishes to destroy the world because he is a misguided nihilist. He believes life is meaningless pain and therefore he wishes to end it all for everyone, releasing them into the sweet embrace of death. From his perspective, this is a nice thing to do.

Sephiroth on the other hand wishes to destroy a world merely to gain its power and become a God and then rule over another planet. His intention is therefore purely self-centered which makes him slightly more villainous (motive-wise).

Sephiroth also enjoys screwing with Cloud's mind. There are opportunities where he could have destroyed Cloud, but he chose to rather let him live so he could gain some thrill out of taunting him. A plan that ultimately backfires. Kefka on the other hand is more of a physical destruction kind of person.

Although Sephiroth didn't achieve his goals, it doesn't make him less villainous. It just means that the opposition against him were more skilled. And ultimately, what it comes down to, is that Sephiroth burnt down your village and killed a character close to you. Kefka may have poisoned Doma, but there is no real emotional attachment to the place. There is only the one scene in the Forest with the train where you feel Cyan's misery. It is more kind of like: Kefka poisons castle. Cyan becomes angry challenges him. Party helps Cyan. Cyan joins party.

Whereas Sephiroth's destruction of Nibelheim occurs after you make an attachment with the characters (as you will have played with them). The flashback also creates attachments to Cloud's mum (for example). So when Sephiroth burns it down and almost kills Tifa, it has a greater emotional impact.

I don't think Sephiroth killing Aeris needs to be explained. And there is no counter-argument that Kefka did something similar.

They're both cool, but I prefer Sephiroth as a villain because of the personal feel of the villainy he does. He also does have a cool backstory and he would technically be the Fallen Hero type of villain.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

I would say that Kefka is probably less cruel than Sephiroth. Kefka wishes to destroy the world because he is a misguided nihilist. He believes life is meaningless pain and therefore he wishes to end it all for everyone, releasing them into the sweet embrace of death. From his perspective, this is a nice thing to do.

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This would be true if he was into killing people swiftly as opposed to drawing out their miserable existences and killing them slowly for enjoyment.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Sephiroth on the other hand wishes to destroy a world merely to gain its power and become a God and then rule over another planet. His intention is therefore purely self-centered which makes him slightly more villainous (motive-wise).

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Sephiroth generally stuck to killing people who were in his way. For him killing people was a means not an end. Killing someone for a reason is generally regarded as less evil than killing for fun.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Sephiroth also enjoys screwing with Cloud's mind. There are opportunities where he could have destroyed Cloud, but he chose to rather let him live so he could gain some thrill out of taunting him. A plan that ultimately backfires. Kefka on the other hand is more of a physical destruction kind of person.

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I think he just saw it as more of a way to use his tool. Up until after Mideel Sephiroth always felt he had complete control over Cloud so he was no threat, and since he could be used as a tool why would he kill him. And breaking Cloud's mind was an important part of actually getting the Black Materia.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Although Sephiroth didn't achieve his goals, it doesn't make him less villainous. It just means that the opposition against him were more skilled. And ultimately, what it comes down to, is that Sephiroth burnt down your village and killed a character close to you. Kefka may have poisoned Doma, but there is no real emotional attachment to the place. There is only the one scene in the Forest with the train where you feel Cyan's misery. It is more kind of like: Kefka poisons castle. Cyan becomes angry challenges him. Party helps Cyan. Cyan joins party.

Whereas Sephiroth's destruction of Nibelheim occurs after you make an attachment with the characters (as you will have played with them). The flashback also creates attachments to Cloud's mum (for example). So when Sephiroth burns it down and almost kills Tifa, it has a greater emotional impact.

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I duno, I was kind of attached to the entire world that Kefka f'ed up.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

I don't think Sephiroth killing Aeris needs to be explained. And there is no counter-argument that Kefka did something similar.

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This I agree with you on. Anyone who even brings up General Leo as an equivalent example is out of their mind. However, I personally place far more importance on world destruction as a measure of villainy than personal closeness to the victims.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

They're both cool, but I prefer Sephiroth as a villain because of the personal feel of the villainy he does. He also does have a cool backstory and he would technically be the Fallen Hero type of villain.

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I could never get over the whole clown look Kefka has going on. Suits him perfectly but I'm still not a fan.

In summary, I think Kefka was a better villain but I like Sephiroth better. And I don't think Sephiroth ever gets his fair due. He is either highly over rated, or highly under rated by most people.

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

I think he just saw it as more of a way to use his tool. Up until after Mideel Sephiroth always felt he had complete control over Cloud so he was no threat, and since he could be used as a tool why would he kill him. And breaking Cloud's mind was an important part of actually getting the Black Materia.

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It is extremely important for Sephiroth to torture Cloud. Because of his psychic abilities, shapeshifting and the power to control JENOVA cells he can almost use everyone as his tool so it is not just that he wanted to control Cloud to get the Black Materia. Sephiroth is enormously arrogant because he knows he is the strongest of all - and he knew it during his "hero time" as well but he didn't care that much about how popular and how famous he was. But when Cloud, one of the weakest characters (at this moment of the story) you can imagine succeeds in stopping Sephiroth from taking revenge he got...how should I call that..."pissed off". And that is no joke. He was proud of his strength and being defeated by a normal ShinRa soldier was the worst moment for him. That is why he wants to show Cloud how weak he is compared to Sephiroth, why he wants to break his mind completely and then wants to kill him physically after he has killed Cloud mentally. Not to mention the story would be very short in case Sephiroth kills Cloud just because he says "Mhh, nah - I think I use one of my clones who isn't the main character to get the Black Materia, I don't care about the story line.".

And I love Kefka's outfit. His whole story about his past is tragic and great at the same time. Like Sephiroth's.

Did Sephiroth make the connection that it was the same person who threw him into the Lifestream? It never seemed like it to me. He always seemed to be largely indifferent to Cloud, until you killed the piece of Jenova in the northern crater and took the Black Materia back. After that he saw Cloud as a real threat and proceeded to crush him.

My main point was that his crushing of Cloud's mind was done (mostly) for utility, not just pleasure as Kefka would have.

It is stated in the Ultimania Omega so there's no doubt. His meaning of life excluding absorbing life energy and so becoming the most powerful being in the universe is to take revenge on Cloud because he has "damaged" his pride. And of course using him as his own puppet is part of his revenge - I mean, he wanted Cloud to kill Aerith - that's way more cruel than what he did to Aerith by himself.

And the evil Sephiroth - so the VILLAIN, not the hero - is completely emotionless like JENOVA is. The only moments when he is amused are the moments when he shows how much more powerful he is compared to Cloud and the others. So the moments when he tortures Cloud as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It is stated in the Ultimania Omega so there's no doubt. His meaning of life excluding absorbing life energy and so becoming the most powerful being in teh universe is to take revenge on Cloud because he has "damaged" his pride.

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I don't read the Ultimania's. And if that is in the Ultimania, I am glad I don't. Because if that is Sephiroth's motive, then he just became lame.

Yeah, Kefka did take his time destroying the World. But then again, Kefka is completely nuts.

But Sephiroth was going to do the same thing. He just got defeated. And he would have wiped out everything too. I just think that (assuming that motive is not true) for Sephiroth to destroy a Planet so he can become powerful is more villainous than destroying a Planet because he doesn't believe in the existence of life.

But as I said, what it comes down to is merely personal preference. Sephiroth's villainy is more personal. And Sephiroth is better set up in the game as a villain. There is a build-up to him. He's mentioned almost from the beginning in casual conversation. An aura is made around him. Then he (well who they think is him at the time) comes into the Shin-Ra building and kills almost everyone. This is before the player even knows what he looks like.

Then when they do introduce him, you almost feel sad for him. When he says he doesn't know what a hometown feels like because he doesn't have one. And then goes on about how Professor Gast is no longer around. It makes him feel completely alone. Then he finds out his heritage and the lies that he was told and he loses it, and then his villainy begins. Kefka doesn't quite have the build up.

Sephiroth may have needed to toy with Cloud's mind a bit, but he did do it fairly often. And trying to make Cloud kill Aerith was not necessary from his point of view. So, there was a deliberate effort to ruin Cloud's head.

So, what I think we do agree on is that Sephiroth was handled better in the game as the villain. Stylistically-wise!

Lol, "he just became lame". That was him 1997 and that's him today. Most of the things which are written in the Ultimania Omega can be seen by just watching Sephiroth in Final Fantasy VII and reading the dialogues properly. Those who don't, just misunderstand it and write theories like "JENOVA controls Sephiroth." just because they don't understand the meaning of "JENOVA's reunion and Sephiroth's will...brilliant!".

In Final Fantasy VII you were able to see how confident Sephiroth is and so of course it is written in the Ultimania Omega.

Oh and by the way - the japanese Final Fantasy VII is way more clear. But that doesn't mean the translation is so bad as most people say. Because it is not. But the original is better - with its extra scenes when Cloud runs out of Tifa's bar at the beginning of the story and says he wants to seek Sephiroth because he thinks he is still out there, et cetera.

Seriously is that in VII or is this some Advent Children rubbish? I kind of shy away from all this. I watched AC and read the scripts for Crisis Core and Dirge of Cerberus. Seriously, they need to confiscate whatever they're smoking at Squenix. Although AC was quite cool. Not very good, but there were some cool moments in it. And it actually made a lot more sense than Dirge of Cerberus (especially) or Crisis Core.

If you don't accept the Compilation then you cannot complain about anything. The Compilation is Final Fantasy VII itself and not only Final Fantasy VII"-1". And even though there are some things which were changed and of course things like "Sephiroth wants to absorb everything like JENOVA" is more clear after Advent Children because in Final Fantasy VII-1 he obviously just wants to absorb Gaia most of his character was already developed in Final Fantasy VII-1.

And Sephiroth's overconfidence is understandable. He needs to have a "weakness".

- He is the most powerful character in the Final Fantasy VII universe (and so of the Final Fantasy X universe because we all know it is the same universe)
- He has the strongest will of all characters
- Because of his will he can partly control the lifestream - he is the evil part of the lifestream if you want to call him that - and uses the magic he can summon with the lifestream with such a destructive power no one else can because his willpower allows him to absorb the knowledge and memories in the lifestream and so of course he becomes stronger and stronger
- He is the best swordsman of all and uses a Nodachi like no one else can use it because Nodachis can only be used with the Iai-Do Style and he uses it like he wants it to use
- He can come back over and over again because of his will power combined with the ability of the Reunion

Et cetera.

With such power I would be overconfident as well. Of course he is proud of that power and Sephiroth himself says he thought he was something special since he was a little child. But experiencing why he is something special was the first surprise and then being defeated by Cloud was too much surprise during one week.

Jenova Project G? Jenova Project S? Genesis? Angeal? They had nothing to do with VII. The writers at Squenix needed something to write about, so they passed the opium pipe around. Seriously, Crisis Core was such a wasted opportunity. They had one of the most popular villains in any gaming series, who had very little backstory, but instead they decide to create a whole lot of other characters. Why not look at Sephiroth's rise to a hero in Wutai? Or some of his & Zack's adventures before Nibelheim? Let the character's see what Sephiroth the man was like before he found out the truth about his origins. No, seriously wasted opportunity from a story point-of-view. Although the game may have been fun.

I love it how people just read the part they want to read and ignore the rest. Exactly that behaviour is the reason why almost no one knows the story of Final Fantasy VII. I have already mentioned things were changed. You don't have to write it after I have written it. I know Genesis and Angeal are no old characters.

And you are not completely right.

JENOVA Project S is THE JENOVA Project of Final Fantasy VII-1.

They just gave it the extra letter and added some details.

And you complain about new things but you say you want to see something about Zack's adventure or Sephiroth as hero? For this they would have to show new things as well.

I don't understand how much sense this makes. You want new things but you don't want them. Or is it just because of the new characters?

Yeah, I know Jenova Project S is Sephiroth's project. Crisis Core is silly to me because of Genesis and Angeal. Why would there suddenly be another Jenova project that is not mentioned ONCE in the original VII. Or an invasion of monsters that again, is not mentioned ONCE in the original VII. If you're going to do a prequel, make sure it doesn't interfere with what you already have IMO.

So yeah, Crisis Core revolved around Genesis and Angeal, and not around Zack and Sephiroth. Which is why it lost an opportunity. And then added silliness. Which is why I think it's silly.

Hope that clarifies what I want ;)

I agree with you that Crisis Core could have had more special moments like with Sephiroth. Especially because the most important moment of Crisis Core, the CRISIS CORE, the moment when Sephiroth became the villain was only shown as DMW scene - the moment when he found and read Doctor Gast's false Documents about JENOVA being a Cetra so that he thought he would be a Cetra as well.

But there were many good Sephiroth and Zack moments. In the DMW as well. So Crisis Core is a very good prequel. It is a prequel with Zack as protagonist, not Sephiroth.

But another moment which I miss is the moment when you are sitting in the truck with Sephiroth and Zack is nervous because Sephiroth is his idol like Angeal is. The moment with the Dragon. This could have been a boss battle. Zack can't defeat the dragon, he gets hit by a Flamethrower and is pushed back in front of the truck.

FMV scene.

It is raining. You see Zack in front of the truck and the dragon. The back door of the truck gets opened and you see some black leather boots getting out on the ground, then it zooms up to the black leather coat and the lower part of Sephiroth's face. Sephiroth faces the Dragon. It attacks him but Sephiroth is not impressed. Sephiroth defeats the dragon. He helps Zack to stand up. They return to the truck and drive to Nibelheim.

End of FMV scene.

Such things would have been cool.

But even without them Crisis Core is good.

And of course things like the Genesis invasion are not mentioned. ShinRa does not even mentioned what really has happened during the Crisis Core. It is all because of ShinRa's lies. They lie and so you can explain why some things are not mentioned. I mean - Genesis and Angeal were claimed to be dead like ShinRa wrote in their newspaper. And they were not even close to being as popular and famous as Sephiroth was and still is - in the world of Final Fantasy VII itself.

EDIR@VeloZero: That just shows me you ignore the truth about what really happens in Final Fantasy VII and for you only your interpretation is important. But notice - the truth has already existed in Final Fantasy VII 1997 and interpretating an existing truth is nonsense, because it is how it is. But you don't understand that Final Fantasy VII itself already tells most of it. And if you say you like the "original Final Fantasy VII", then you like it with all its official truths and not with your interpretation.

Ah yes, now I remember why I don't come into the FFVII forum anymore.

Champagne, you seem to be a lot like me and don't like to acknowledge the Ultimania or Compilation. Though I think these things are disappointing and choosing to ignore them enables me to retain my love for the original game you have to accept that the mess that got created is all official. There isn't any way you can argue against the ret-con and other stuff using source material from the original game. By staying true to the original game we are essentially no different than the people who were making up and believing crackpot speculations of the original game.
Though writing all every non game source does make the lore more enjoyable to some (like me) it should be realized that it falls into the same category as just making stuff up because you like it better that way.

Which as I said, is the reason I don't usually come into this forum anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by VeloZer0

Ah yes, now I remember why I don't come into the FFVII forum anymore.

Champagne, you seem to be a lot like me and don't like to acknowledge the Ultimania or Compilation. Though I think these things are disappointing and choosing to ignore them enables me to retain my love for the original game you have to accept that the mess that got created is all official. There isn't any way you can argue against the ret-con and other stuff using source material from the original game. By staying true to the original game we are essentially no different than the people who were making up and believing crackpot speculations of the original game.
Though writing all every non game source does make the lore more enjoyable to some (like me) it should be realized that it falls into the same category as just making stuff up because you like it better that way.

Which as I said, is the reason I don't usually come into this forum anymore.

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Just pretend they never existed! And when we played, they didn't.

I'm with champagne supernova. I want to jump in my handy dandy time machine and wipe out the Ultimania and the Compilation. A fun videogame that came out in 1997 didn't need this.

I played the game in 1997 before any of this existed. It all seems like "how much can we make up to keep this going and make a little more money" to me.

This is all slightly off-topic though. So! I agree that Sephiroth had really good build up. Awesome observation! Kefka really didn't have that, though his character seemed better. Build up matters, though.

Both Kefka and Sephiroth had extra information 1994 and 1997. You just didn't know. Kefka is mentioned in the Ultimania Omega of Final Fantasy VI.

So too bad for people who don't understand Square doesn't write everything after the stories or people who just don't read the informations you get properly/like the should be understood.

Final Fantasy = Square. With all of its informations. And nothing else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Both Kefka and Sephiroth had extra information 1994 and 1997.

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I think you're missing a preposition in there. So... uh? Okay. This is not an argument we need to get into on this thread, this whole validity of the Compilation whatever.

Subjectivity makes this argument virtually useless, unless we all want to pop blood vessels and get banned.

No it doesn't. In topics about an existing truth subjectivity itself is completely useless. There are things where an own opinion is great. But if you say "No, gravity does not exist." your opinion is just wrong and nothing else.

And if Square decides this and that to be fact in Final Fantasy this and only this is the truth. But in topics about "What is Final Fantasy VII's Promised Land?" your opinion cannot be wrong because Square themselves said "We want the fans to have their own opinion about the Promised Land and what it really is." - for things like this they have not decided what fact is or not.

It is not the fan who decides what the story is. It is the creator of the story. The fan only tries to understand it. But that doesn't mean he/her is right. It is possible. But he/her doesn't have to be right.

It is not like I would write here "Rinoa is Ultimecia because she has white wings which shows her good side and Ultimecia has black wings which should show her dark side.". I write: "Square says: ...".


"My point is, they can throw anything out there, just like we can. That's why I like to think that it doesn't exist, like many people do. (That, and the thousands of movies and game prequels/sequels)."

You can think that, of course. However the difference is that you don't own Final Fantasy so what they say is right and yours is not as long as it differs from them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It is not the fan who decides what the story is. It is the creator of the story. The fan only tries to understand it. But that doesn't mean he/her is right. It is possible. But he/her doesn't have to be right.

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This is why I hate Square even more. I like the speculation, guessing and debates that take place when trying to decide something about FFVII, it continues to make the game fun over a decade after its release.
But Square have pretty much tried to answer everything about it, cutting off all theories from the fans. Everything I could come up with, you'd probably say "No, Square said...". By that reasoning, if Square had said Barret baught his gun arm from Sephrioth who became a crack dealer after falling into the lifestream, you'd just take it as word of law.

My point is, they can throw anything out there, just like we can. That's why I like to think that it doesn't exist, like many people do. (That, and the thousands of movies and game prequels/sequels).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

It is not the fan who decides what the story is. It is the creator of the story. The fan only tries to understand it. But that doesn't mean he/her is right. It is possible. But he/her doesn't have to be right.

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But no one is claiming to be right. People are merely saying, "Well, I saw it as..." and then a hammer of "Well, you're wrong, because the Ultimania says" comes down and takes all of the fun out of discussing initial interpretations.

Okay, I'm wrong. I'm a wrong little wrongster from wrong-land. But if I want to discuss how I viewed the game when I first played it before all this extra stuff came around, I WILL. Because it's fun.

Also, this objective vomiting of an answer to every question in the game that Square is doing robs the video game of the "video game is art" stance. Completely and horrifically.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Clo

But no one is claiming to be right.

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Probably you don't. But other people do. And because of them I do answer. If I don't other people who don't know that much about Final Fantasy think "Mhh, he writes this and that and no one answers. Perhaps he is right!". And other people who write wrong things about Final Fantasy insist on it being right - that's why I post here. Because I don't want them to force other people to think they are right. And of course to show what I know - but that's not the main reason.

@ForsakenLover: In my post there is no opinion of mine. It is the truth.

And Clo, it seems you really know nothing about Final Fantasy if you really think an argument based on Square's own words is invalid.

I feel I can offer a nice perspective on all this as I'm basically what Sephiroth is accusing everyone in here with a different opinion than his of being. See, I once gladly ignored the Compilation and thought my ideas were right.

I did this out of love for my first ever Final Fantasy. I wanted FFVII to remain as it was - perfect.

But alas, we must all grow up and realize this world we live in sucks.

So the Ultimania does exist. Advent Children does exist. Crisis Core does exist.
I think everyone in this thread acknowledges their existence and validity.

But then again, we also know of the Prequel Trilogy. Star Wars fans have to accept midichlorians exist too.

It has nothing to do with thinking your opinion is more correct than the "canon' one. It has to do with wishing to preserve, if only in a pretend fantasy world, something of beauty.
Fantasy is always preferable to reality and the fantasy that Crisis Core doesn't exist is one that I love.

The only good thing to come out of the Compilation was Cloud's outfit in AC. Pretty sexy. Not a huge fan of the shades but they were okay.

In the end, let everyone think what they want to think. Enjoy what they want to enjoy.

Also, champagne supernova, you the one from Naruto Forums?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Also, champagne supernova, you the one from Naruto Forums?

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As I don't really know what you're talking about, I'll assume no ;)

But yeah, our final fantasy (what a lame pun) is that these things did not exist. We know they exist. But we'll just play pretend.

And agree with Clo on the whole games are art vibe. You can't keep on spewing out answers on something if you want it to be considered art. Art is basically the fusion of the creator's work and the viewer's opinion of it. The viewer is just as active a player in the creation of art as the maker.

Though, to be sure, I think the argument of the validity and nature of the Compilation is a good one. Because both sides have justified reasons for saying yes and no - hence a good argument, that could produce interesting conversations.

I'm just afraid to make a thread on these forums, haha. People seem to get so angry. Though it's not quite as bad as the FFXIII hatred that's hopping around. ;)