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Originally Posted by
Wolf Kanno
Yes, because Kiros pretty much says it and there are a number of signs and dialogue in the game to confirm it. Whereas Griever has one incredibly ambiguous scene that I feel within context was meant to be a symbol of Squall which made sense cause his consciousness was within Rinoa at the time. Even if Rinoa can't remember it cause of memory loss or being unconscious, Squall was there in spirit, yet he says nothing. Also, Squall and Laguna's relationship is intriguing, but not actually important to the plot, its indirectness can be forgiven cause its actually irrelevant to the plot, whereas the Griever issue sounds like a significant plot element if it saved Rinoa's life and eventually caused her to be R=U. That's not a plot element you leave minor breadcrumbs for only a select few to catch onto, that's a game changer and I feel only an amateur or a complete pretentious douche of writer would pull.
My real question here, is why does Squall have a ring when he always wears gloves? :confused:
Except FF8 thrives off being as subtle as possible. Many people compare it to other FFs in which those games make it a point to tell the watcher what the plot is. FF8 doesn't do that. FF8's plot and ending is specifically made not to do that. You're never even told the full effects of Time compression and heck, there's never any real confirmation about Julia being Rinoa's mother either but we know that it is true.
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That I did, but considering we know that Ellone's powers work in real time(every Dream sequence is followed up by one not participant, usually Rinoa, mentioning the characters had been out for a good chunk of time, and yet Squall is only bale to experience very small parts of Laguna's life), means that Rinoa was most likely not able to see a good chunk of her memory, Ellone pretty much brought her back immediately so its very unlikely Rinoa saw anything significant. Even if she did, its surprising it goes completely unmentioned by her. As soon as the ordeal is over, Rinoa never mentions anything concerning her brief moment in time in Adel's past. Once again, if this was meant to be a significant plot element, I feel it would have been elaborated on much more than just one line of dialogue and then forgotten completely.
Again, FF8 was about subtlety. Notice how there are lots of, including in the ending, seemingly 'insignificant' moments.
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If they were often incorrect, then I feel you could give more than one example, especially one that the fan-translators themselves found and later corrected. The other issue here, is that we know VIII has translation errors and localization changes of its own, so its not like we can even use the games own script as absolute truth either since by your definition its just as faulty.
Uh, no. Professional translators are obviously more reliable than a bunch of fans, with questionable credentials, giving answers on things.
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There really is no reason to discount translation projects that are the result of a collaboration of die hard fans. Of anything, I feel that die hard fans are more likely to be as accurate as possible because they care more, as opposed to some guy who is simply hired for the job and this will be one of a stack of other translation projects they will be working on. Its not like SE has ever proofread or cared about the translation and localization quality of their games, as long as they are readable and bring in a profit. The series has been marred with translation errors and poor localization all the way up to FFX. So honestly, I would rather place my lot with the fans who actually have a reason to care about the accuracy of the work. Especially if they are willing to admit they are wrong, and mistranslated. I study Japanese, its a very ambiguous language based on context rather than definitive statementsm mistakes can happen.
FFX's 'mistranslations' usually had to do with certain aspects in Japanese culture that couldn't properly be translated into Western cultural beliefs. The ambiguity didn't help. Thus they changed some lines. And if you're gonna argue FF7's translation then let me stop you there by pointing out that was entirely Sony's fault as they did the translation.
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Also, while the Sephiroth example you gave is from the Ultimania, I can elaborate further by pointing out its from the Creator Interview section of the Advent Children Ultimania (for smurf sake, I hate the Compilation , yet I know this how?) which was a statement made by Kitase if I remember correctly. The translation error comes from him saying "there is no one above Sephiroth on the Planet" and honestly, if you took this line out of the interview's context, it does sound like a definitive statement about Sephiroth in the FF mythos, but when put into the context of knowing the interviewer asked about how strong Sephy was in AC when he fought Cloud, it makes more sense that he meant in VII's world. I honestly don't see this as a major mistake. Even if Kitase did make such a statement, he's already admitted that VII is his favorite game he made, and he was the most gung-ho about the Compilation (Nomura just wanted to do a simple 30 minute video), and can only claim creative contribution on five FF titles out of 14 games total, so I don't think anyone but fans of VII would take his statement clearly. Even then, there has been other off the wall statements made by Kitase and Nojima that received such negative outcry that SE has never brought it up again, making some fans believe they have gone back on that statement.
And I can similarly argue about the ambiguity of Japanese regarding such statements as you have done. People go off-the-wall on the percieved meaning behind the words and they may be completely out of context. Fan translators do not seem to recognize the significance of context when making translations. They translate things to their most literal meaning. A professional translator typically doesn't make such obvious mistakes.
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Well yeah, Ultimecia is from the future and Ellone can't send people to the future. Also, Ultimecia was a consciousness inside Rinoa that was sent along with her. Its no different from when she would send Zell or Squall in the past, or when Squall's consciousness was sent into Rinoa's while Ultimecia was in control. Squall (and the player) didn't see Ultimecia's past,he simply heard her thoughts when she noticed him. It would be no different here.
Except we're speaking of memories and they're not relative to time in this respect.
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You forgot to mention that years went by, its not like little Squall's Elle looks like grown up Ellone. So its not just the GFs here. I know I couldn't recognize people I went to high school with, if I saw them now. :D
We're speaking of the only person he loved as a child, not random high schoolers. Squall didn't even remember her real name, just the nickname he had for her.
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The issue here, is that other people like Quistis and Zell have completely forgotten about the orphanage yet Squall remember part of, the part that is most important.
He doesn't remember her though. You're forgetting that he didn't even recognize Ellone in Laguna's past. That shows profound memory loss.
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You're avoiding my question though, if Rinoa was going to have her memories lost due to having a hidden GF on her and then have Adel's memories corrupt her personality, how is this possible if the last scene in the game clearly shows Squall and Rinoa kissing and implying a happy ever after? What happened to Squall and the others, how did they let Rinoa degenerate this badly and not done anything? I find it hard to believe that they wouldn't do anything, and this creates a major plot hole in the R=U theory that I feel should be addressed to establish this theory as canon.
Except, you're ignoring the earlier scenes of the ending. You're saying there are 'holes' based off only your interpretation of the ending. Your interpretation isn't an absolute. And the ending showing that things are fine after Ultimecia's defeat doesn't mean that they always will be in the future. Heck, the entire last segment could just be a dream. It's open enough of an ending to be considered such.
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The Ultimania doesn't touch on the ending (the actual VIII Ultimania doesn't even go into Adel or Ultimecia, most of the ubfo on these two come from the FF 20th Anniversary Character Ultimania, There is a scenario Ultimania as well but not much has been translated from that), mainly cause VIII's Ultimania is simply glorified strategy guide with a few extra tidbits of info (mostly on the machines and vehicles, and notable NPCs in towns) like explaining terms in the game, like what GFs are, what is a witch, and a short story by Nojima about Hyne and the origin of the Witches.
All of which was included in the original game. A 20th anniversary Ultimania is obvious cash cows to manipulate peoples appreciation for past final fantasies. After so many years, you can't expect the creators to be keeping tabs on a story they completed decades ago and are obviously prone to error. In fact, this is what I hate most about Ultimania's. There could be a mistake in translation and the fan dumb will argue it's 'irrefutible truth' when the creators could just be lazily adding info that contradicts the original game's information. If it contradicts the original game then it's obviously wrong and the creators have made an error but no one sees it that way.
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Personally, I feel that witnessing an event that didn't happen in the game, right there disqualifies taking anything in the first five minutes of the ending as having significant plot value, pretty much null and void. Squall is obviously hallucinating, not getting the 2001: Space Odyssey treatment, o some kind of divine revelation. I just don't think its significant evidence. So what if it flashes an image of Ultimecia's final form for a split second that is so fast if you blinked, you would miss it, that doesn't make it significant, that makes it so obtuse, only someone really bored would pick up on it. As for her getting some airtime in the ending, its in the middle of you watching a massive collage of every cast member from every cutscene in the game. Hell the first of these flash images in the ending is of Seifer but it doesn't mean its actually significant.
Again, your personal interpretation is not absolute fact. Aside from which, the image with Seifer was from the cut scene where he pushed Rinoa towards Adel. For all we know, Squall may be dreaming, he may be witnessing the original timeline, or he could even be losing his memories. There's even an image of Squall with a black hole for a face near the end before the scene with Rinoa's spacesuit shattering in space. For all we know, he could be witnessing a world in which he ceased to exist or never did in the first place and it wouldn't even be stretching any elements of the plot for that to be accurate.
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I feel that Squall is simply trying to hold onto something. He's trapped in the remnants of Time Compression and needs to find something to hold onto in order to get back to his own time. Course, having spent most of the game as a loner, he doesn't have the strong emotional bonds to do this easily and simply is struggling to remember Rinoa while the warping of time and space takes its toll on his psyche. That's the reason why he flashbacks to so many events in the game, its because Squall is practically watching his life flash before his eyes. Its not until he finds his most honest feeling about Rinoa, which was when he thought she died in space, that Squall makes his connection, and what do you know, two seconds later in the video, Rinoa shows up to comfort him from the post-TC existence he found himself trapped in. That's my interpretation of the beginning sequence at least.
Key word being interpretation.
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I feel the ending was suppose to be ambiguous but I feel it still correlates to the games theme of love and opening up to others, and I feel the end finds a bizarre way of getting a last little moment of throwing the theme into the players face. At least it sticks with you.
The ending could just be there to give the player a false sense of happiness. Now why would they do that? Do you think it unlikely? Why did they show Laguna proposing to Raine only to see the image of her gravestone a few moments later? That obviously wasn't a happy ending.
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This is pretty much the Evangelion ending all over again, except no one is claiming that Gendo Ikari is an older Shinji who has time traveled into the past to affect the Instrumentality Project, and change the future.
No, instrumentality was about moving on from loss and being able to change your life at any given point based solely on your attitude towards yourself. It wasn't really shown to have much, if anything, to do with time travel. But that's my interpretation so take it with a grain of salt.
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Incorrect, all the Rinoa footage is simply from the cutscenes and the closest you get to "possessed Rinoa" is the FMV sequence where Rinoa tries to place the Odine Bangle on Edea. Most of the footage of Rinoa that isn't the warped Dance party intro, are just a hodge podge of the sequences from the games opening FMV to Squall rescuing Rinoa at the Garden Battle and the Sorceress Memorial. There is no footage of possessed Rinoa. Just events from the games story, that go along with the clips with other cast members. Hell, several of the scenes from the opening FMV involving Rinoa never actually happen in the game, and some like I pointed out are just other story events with new backgrounds, like the Squall/Rinoa embrace at the sunset which is based off the cutscene when Squall frees Rinoa from the cryo-freeze.
Actually, the cut scene with Seifer is an image after he pushed Rinoa to Adel, the cut scene with Rinoa was when she was turned dizzy thanks to Edea's hair magic, and the other cut scenes have events that supposedly never happened. In all honesty, they could have embraced in the sunset after Rinoa rescues him. Rinoa dancing around in the field of flowers and other such things also could've happened. It's all meant to be open to interpretation anyway. We could be looking at the original events before Ultimecia's time mess-up for all we know.
But again, it's all interpretation, and specifically geared for individual interpretation.
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I wouldn't discount Odine, he is the games premier specialist on Sorceress' and considering he spent time with Edea who does have significant knowledge on Ultimecia and was the first to mention she hails from the future. Odine uses the term "many generations", generations are a span of 30 years (give or take) but he also mentions its many, implying more than one generation in the future. The least amount of time is going to be 60, and its claimed by the most reliable sources in the game. I really can't see how much more proof is needed than that.
Again, he has absolutely no proof of anything he says about her. If anything, he's just stroking his own ego. The fact SeeD even exists in her timeline leads me to believe that Odine overshot how far into the future it was. The landscape hasn't even changed, neither has the orphanages look after apparently being rebuilt.
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As for the Orphanage, you forget it shorly transforms into a nightmare structure as soon as the party gets to the beach. The whole structure changes into a ghastily structure of pipes and chains, they are also moving through Time Compression itself so its very likely the Orphanage they are going through is the one of their memories as kids, which changes into reality when they reach the outskirts of Ultimecia's castle.
No, they get forced into time compression, fight a bunch of sorcercesses all over time, and then they seem to land into the future, in which the orphanage seems to have been rebuilt in the relatively same decourium. The party exits the orphanage to find Ultimecia's castle and the chains as well as dead SeeDs.
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For the SeeD's, its all members of the Whie SeeDs, who are such a secret faction even the regular SeeDs didn't know they existed until the events of the game. I can see that kind of secretive organization lasting much longer than a mercenary force. Century old secret orders are not even uncommon in our world.
The White SeeDs make even less sense since it's a bunch of kids growing up together on a ship. Unless they took in more people, it couldn't be possible. Even then, you would expect some changes if it's really an absurdly long time in the future, not just with SeeD but with the overall structure of the world. Doc Odine doesn't even give you a definite time on how far into the future it is. It's all speculation.
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Considering Rinoa is not involved at all in the casts childhood, I would argue her words would hold more meaning if we were debating if Ultimecia is Edea. Rinoa does not have to be in the final battle party, so her lines don't necessarly apply. I would argue that her lines are just a very poetic way of speaking her own regret and fear of death.
'Childhood' could easily mean Squall's entire FF8 journey. He's roughly 17-18 near the end of the game. Holding on, with time not waiting, could easily be a reference to his love for Rinoa. But again, it's open to interpretation.
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I still say Griever's existence is simply Ultimecia intimidating the party and trying to unnerve Squall, while stalling for time.
It would essentially be the same thing for either of our theories.
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This would literally be a visual example (its literally a relationship chart), nothing you can screw up there,by translation. It outright confirms Squall and Laguna's relationship. As for fans asking, R=U is popular on the net, but from what I've gathered, its a minority. Chances are most fans wouldn't ask about it.
Her weapons are named after Rinoa's but they are not dark versions of them. Ultimecia borrows a lot from other elements in the game. She has Pulsar Shockwave, most of her attacks are named with a Knight motif, her Ultimate Attack is a play on Squall's Renzoken, even being called No Heart as opposed to Lionheart. Squall also confirms to Ultimecia that he has to go back and meet up with someone (a reference to his famous promise to Rinoa). Once again, no one blinks about this as though we should allude that Ultimecia is Rinoa. Hell Ultimecia states her only goal with Time Compression was to create a world of frozen time where everyone would worship her as a god.
A visual example isn't a translation then. Ultimecia also never stated such a thing... not to my knowledge. The entire game alluded to time compression and what it was but it was never outright stated.
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Yet the real issue here is that Ultimecia isn't the only character whose weapon set-up is either wrong or a reference to another character in Dissidia, most of the villains have altered weapon set-ups since they were never confirmed in the original. Terra uses Rods and Staffs despite them being one of the few types of weapons she can't equip in VI, Kefka's Ultimate weapons are Flutes and Harps despite the weapon type not being in VI, all of Tidus' weapons are actually Wakka's weapons, and a good chunk of the specialty weapons are made up. I'd say they wanted to include Rinoa in some capacity into the game much like Wakka and the best way is to incorporate their weapons.
But did the others have quotes alluding to an event that happened between the main character and female lead?
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I'm mostly trying to stay open to the idea she may be closer to their time, but I do believe Ultimecia is from a distant future by a few hundred years.
I believe I've already mentioned the problems with this, such as landscape, and our own interpretation of the same information.
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Sacrifice doesn't mean it has to be killed, but really, she was technically sacrificed by Seifer, since Adel is slowly killing Rinoa and is only prevented from doing so by your parties intervention.
Sacrifice does mean they're killed... it's most commonly used as mentions of a ritual killing and considering the symbolism...
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If we're going by symbolism though, Greiver is said to come from Squall's mind in the Scan. Assuming she didn't create Griever in thin air but simply summoned him, wouldn't the Scan info imply Griever is with Squall and not Rinoa? Especially when the game states that GFs rest in a section of a persons bran which causes the memory loss? The theme itself that plays when Ultimecia junctions with Griever is Maybe I'm a Lion, which the title clearly points to Squall whose symbol is the lion.
I believe I mentioned Ultimecia's subconscious continued love for Squall, whom she forgot. At least, that's how I interpreted it.
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Going back to Rinoa being Junctioned to Adel, she's not really in a cross figuration, of anything, she's being worn like a necklace and is more of a Y shape than anything. The other issue here is that the cross has a different meaning in Japanese than it would in Western Cultures, so its very likely the imagery is more meaningful to us than the writers and artists.
There a several problems with your conclusions here. First, the Y-shape is also a symbol for the cross, especially with how Rinoa is junctioned. Second, most people wear the symbol of the cross around their neck..., and finally, the cross has had the same meaning regardless of the religion. It's not solely unique to just Western religion such as Christianity. It's in Buddhism, Hinduism, and other Eastern religions. The tales and symbols of what is commonly regarded as 'the Cross' have existed before the story of Jesus Christ was ever mentioned. The cross has always meant suffering and eventual death. It's happened to every 'Messiah'-like character in ancient religious or folklore stories. There's Christ, there is Buddha (Buddhism being the dominant religion in Japan), there's Kristna, and a whole lot of other mythos that have been lost in history.
Regardless, however, the symbol is not different depending on the region. Much unlike the swatstika symbol, which is commonly held as an image of Nazism in Western culture, yet (ironically enough) means love, peace, and mercy in Eastern Cultures long before the Nazi's stole the symbol.
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The bosses you face in her castle are simply monsters and they could have been there all the time as guardians of her fortress.If she did create them, she could have done it long before the party ever got there. She does rule the future.
The scans mention that they were formerly GFs. It probably isn't even a stretch to say that some of them are twisted versions of what the party uses, regardless of if you believe the R=U theory or not.
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She's killing time to get Time Compression going, only in her final form do they mention she's absorbing time and space through the Scan spell. She even implies to the party when they meet that Time Compression is incomplete. I feel this is the safe bet here. Besides, if the whole point of this was to get powerful enough to avoid death, then it seems silly to me to piuck a fight with a hlaf completed spell when she could have simply ran away, and tried again later. Besides, when characters are killed in battle they get absorbed into time, and I don't think that would be going on if Time Compression was winding down. The truly mind freaky stuff doesn't even begin until after Ultimecia is killed anyway.
I'll actually agree on this part. Though, it seems to be that she may have started it up a second time during the battle so the party would disappear by being absorbed into time. They also do comeback once you've defeated (not killed) her which could mean that she brought them back herself after being defeated. I also find it a bit curious that she has two of herself in her final form. Possibly a split personality?
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This is normal for me. You should have been here in the old days when I used to debate about FFVII. Those threads went on forever...
X_x; Nah, I've had FF7 debates to last a lifetime. lol
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From what I've read, Kitase is more to blame, though Nomura has been the one to deny that Sephiroth is sympathetic and should be thought of as pure evil. Nomura certainly has a hand in writing the 10th Anninversary VII Ultimania but in actuallity, he hasn't done much for the Compilation. Mostly AC and Last Order, the rest of his contribution is just character designs, but yeah, Sephiroth is an overrated villain.
Possible spoilers for FF7 below:
I wish they hadn't even bothered. Not only did they make Sephiroth into Galactus's wannabe version, but they made him look more girly, and gave him this strange homosexual interest in Cloud. Now, it seemed to me that Jenova was the one torturing Cloud and that Sephiroth didn't care to bother with Cloud and only wanted the black materia... but even that's interpretation and I suppose wrong thanks to the compilation.
