Memory loss. Aside from which, how would he know it was a GF to begin with? Squall mentions she should keep it as a good luck charm. And I don't believe the game would've done that. FF8 is unlike other final fantasies in this regard. They never even directly state that Squall is the son of Raine and Laguna but the player knows it with Kiros's words near the end.Considering the game has up until that point, spent a good 60 hours trying to hook these two up and Squall is giving encouraging words, and this whole event is followed by the two finally hooking up, I feel that a Deus ex Machina by the "power of love" is not far fetched here. Poor writing? Maybe, but hardly not far fetch for a game whose theme is Love. Don't forget this is also the game where believing in the memory and power of loved ones, allows you to exist in a Time Compressed world.
The issue with Griever, is that if the ring contained Griever, how did Squall not know? How did he get the ring if it contained such an important plot element? If its laying dormant, why did it choose then to activate and help, and why does Rinoa neither remember or mention it? Why didn't it help her during the battle with Adel, Ultimecia, or Future Griever itself? The issue here, is that saying it was Griever, opens a can of worms of questions and plot holes. If it was so important to the plot, don't you think the game might have at least addressed some of these questions?
That's sending Rinoa into someone else's consciousness. Though, I admit, I forgot the small scene in which Ellone brought Rinoa back before plunging her into Ultimecia's mixed consciousness of Adel's.Actually, Ellone does have to do with the ejection, cause the whole plan was to get Rinoa as the final Sorceress, so they can get Ultimecia to instigate Time Compression, so they can travel to the future.
She would obviously have to have seen Adel's memories to even know she was inside a younger Adel. You contradicted yourself here.also, here is the entire scene of Adel in Lunatic Pandora. No mention of memories whatsoever, just that Ellone sent Rinoa and Ultimecia into a younger Adel she knew, so Ultimecia could start Time Compression.
Ultimania's have often been incorrectly translated. Such as FF7's compilation info. The fan translation stated that Sephiroth was 'the strongest' FF villain, and later retracted that statement stating they were incorrect and that he was simply the strongest in the planet he resided in. Therefore, it's better to take these 'translations' with a grain of salt instead of complete truth. We honestly have no way to verify the integrity of the information or the translation of the information thereof.The other issue here, is that according to the 20th anniversary Ultimania, Ultimecia was actually controlling Adel during the fight.
And yet, Rinoa saw Adel's past self and not Ultimecia's.So chances are, that Rinoa is unconscious cause Ultimecia is running the show, and if she's dominating, then Adel is basically doing nothing at this point cause she's in the same boat as Rinoa. Of anything, she's probably having a psychic battle with Ultimecia and doesn't have time to corrupt Rinoa.
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Squall didn't even recognize Ellone when he saw her twice in her adult form. Granted, the first time was brief, the second time however he didn't even realize 'Ellone' and 'Elle' were the same person. All he seemed to really remember was the emotional pain of Ellone mysteriously vanishing from the orphanage.Except Squall is able to hold onto his memories of Ellone, so there are limits to how much the memory wipe works. The other issue here, comes back to KaiserDragon's argument, how does Rinoa go from being her happy self and then turn into a bat-tit crazy time witch? Especially since we know VIII ends with her and Squall living happily ever after? Do you think Squall would just sit back and let Rinoa go crazy, especially after all the the crap she put him through in the first place? You now have to explain how if VIII ended "happily ever after" how does Rinoa become corrupt and evil without the intervention of friends? What happened to Squall and the rest of SeeD? How do they not figure out about Griever? How does Rinoa not figure it out considering she's a Witch who is absorbing all energy waves around her, not aware of the sentient energy force hanging around her neck?
And the ending of FF8 was obviously made to be interpreted openly. Why else was there a scene in which Squall continuously sees Rinoa in a repeated memory in which her face is blocked off most of the time, Ultimecia is seen briefly, before we see Rinoa in space with her helmet break apart and the Griever ring fly off into space (an event that never even happened)? Obviously, it was meant for individual interpretation. Heck, I've seen no comments about the ending from this supposed 'Ultimania' which doesn't even have an official translation and can't be verified.
Final Fantasy VIII full ending (HQ remastered) - YouTubeWhile the game presents a moment for Rinoa to be corrupted, the ending creates several questions and plot holes concerning the logic of the theory.
You quite clearly see how open the ending is right here. In fact, Ultimecia's face is the only one that stays for any significant length of time (however brief) besides Rinoa's. I also find it curious that nearly all the segments were short clips of when Rinoa was bewitched by Ultimecia apart from the clips of the friends.
You're missing the point. The time stated is never definite and Odine's words barely hold any weight. We never see this Junction machine she supposedly uses and the fact the Orphanage has been rebuilt and is in the same geographic location leads me to believe that the 'far' future isn't really an absurd length of time long into the future. Hell, SeeD still exists during Ultimecia's time period. You would think this organization would have long died out if it was something like 600 years into the future. Also, these assumptions aren't based on much either. If anything 'far into the future' could mean 30 years or even less.I don't mean to sound rude, and I'm sorry if I offended you, but remember the game explicitly states that Ultimecia is a sorceress that hails from several generations in the future.
Originally Posted by FFVIII Script by Asch the Hated from Gamefaqs
If a generation is a 30 year period and we know that Ultemicia hails from several generations ahead of time, that puts her in a time frame that can at the least be 60 years, but since the language of the statement is so ambiguous, she can also be 600 years into the future for all we know cause the game never gives a direct idea. Also, considering Ultemicia looks like this:
I'd say she's one foxy and youthful looking 80 year old.
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Reflect on your...Childhood...Your sensation...Your words...Your emotions...Time...It will not wait...No matter...How hard you hold on...It escapes you...And...I'd say the fact most people missed the fact that the game hints to the orphanage scene is pretty much the opposite of subtitly done well. I'll give you Laguna but I don't feel the game was really subtle about that one. Actually I'd say Laguna and Squall's familial relationship was probably done well but the problem with these compared to the Griever/R=U theory you are proposing is that the game doesn't leave any questions unanswered concerning the Squall/Laguna twist. Ellone mentions that Raine had a child that Laguna never met, Squall is always Laguna in the dream sequences, and Kiros practically tells you if you talk to him on the Ragnarok before going to Lunatic Pandora by telling Squall he's lucky he takes after his mother and not his father.
It may not have been directly stated but the evidence is more than just flashing an image. Its not like Squall spends his time focusing on a journal for no reason, and this was the hint that he's tryin to remember his journalist father. The twist has a moment that acts as a definitive conclusion, its never stated outright but the evidence is very obvious when put together. The same happens in VII concerning Zack, which is a person who had been hinted too from the very beginning of the game, and was consistently hinted to throughout the first disc by both Aerith and Tifa. There is also the relationship between Relm and Shadow, which is hinted at strongly by not only subte hints in Thamasa when Relm is first introduced, but downright thrown in the players face thanks to Shadow's dreams and the one Relm has. Not to mention the subtle hint in the FMV opening in Anthologies where an Amano portrait of Relm is quickly flashed over Shadow, before he dices up some ghosts.
The point is, that each subtle twist has a major moment of confirmation. Whether its indirect like Squall/Laguna and Shadow/Relm relationships to the not so subtle one like Zack or Golbez being Cecil's brother. There is always an a-ha moment and R=U really doesn't have one. There is no major subtle hint in the game that truly confirms R=U, its always just another incredible subtle hint that involves major analysis of scenes or minor elements, to even realize its existence. Ultemicia never blurts out something to kind of give her true identity away, no special words for Squall, no major element of her past to explain how she went from being happy and in-love Rinoa to Time Compressed crazy bitch. Rinoa never mentions that Ultemicia's consciousness feels familiar, hell no one even stops to say she kind of looks familiar when they meet her face to face.
Perhaps she was saying these things because time made her lose her memories?
I'd say Griever's entire existence in that fight, the junctioning, and then that quote really put up a lot of openness in the theory.
Except, fan translations shouldn't be taken literally. If they could make a mistake in translating FF7's information about Sephiroth then I don't see why they couldn't have made mistakes here as well. Was Square Enix ever asked to confirm or deny anything by any fans? If a 'nudge, nudge - wink wink' is what you're looking for then check out Squall's story in the first Dissidia, in which Ultimecia's equipment is a 'dark' version of Rinoa's and she asks to dance with Squall as a joke.The other nail in the coffin here is the Ultimania's, which have confirmed a conncection between Squall and Laguna, as well as Shadow and Relm, but not one Ultimania I've found has ever given any evidence to support R=U. The only connection confirmed is that Ultemicia at some point in VIII gives Rinoa Sorceress power and then possesses her. There is no character relation tree that puts a "wink wink, nudge nudge" ? line between the two, like it does for the two sets of people with ambiguous relationships. The Ultimania's address a connection between Squall and Laguna, but nothing for Rinoa and any of the sorceresses. So in 12 years, SE has never once confirmed it, whereas other ambiguous plot threads have been acknowledged.
If Ultimecia lived so long into the future as you claim it would be more logical to presume that history forgot him. Anyway, the problem isn't the junctioning itself but the obvious symbolism. Rinoa can't really be a 'sacrifice' if she survived.Mostly cause he's the main character but a more fulfilling answer is that Squall has always been at every point of conflict with Ultemicia, so chances are she knows him better, there is also the notion that she referrs to him as the Legendary SeeD in the Garden Battle (course this could be a mis-translation since the Deling speech is so off) so its possible that Squall does hold some significiance in Ultemicia's time.
As for Junctioning with Griever being similar to Rina and Adel, I feel there are big differences. Rinoa is stretched out in a cross shape, and only her hands and feet appear to be fused to her, whereas most of her body is exposed (though I feel the theme of Sacrifice is more likely because Rinoa was sacrificed to Adel to be a power generator, and because rinoa is the sacrificial lamb for Odine's plan to reach Ultemicia by allowing her to do Time Compression by possessing Rinoa). Whereas, Ultemicia is mostly fused with Griever and only her torso is exposed with her arms crossed to cover her naughty bits. Adel spends the battle srawing magic and life out of Rinoa, whereas Ultemicia/Griever act as one being.
If that was the case then why did she make those abominations out of GFs she acquired? The ones in her castle that you can fight before facing her.As for why she didn't creat more of them, there are two possible theories:
1) Her power does have some limitations and I do kind of feel that making a GF out of some mnemories and mostly thin air might take more oomph than one would expect, especially since Ultemicia most likely drained a good part of her power casting the spell for Time Compression. Chances are, the party may not have fought Ultemicia at full strength.
It seemed more like Time compression was slowly desolving to me. She could've just gone into her final form and attempted to trounce the party or done it anytime before the party reached her.or....
2) Its all a stalling tactic cause Ultemicia's true goal is simply to create her Time Compressed world and Squall's party is simply trying to kill her before the spell is completed. Basically she's stalling until she can transform into her final form, where she's slurping up time and spcae like it was a milkshake, and getting stronger by the minute. Its not like her casle of Nightmares wasn't keeping the party busy either. She probably just needed a few more minutes for Time Compression to send her into god mode.
Nah, it's all good. I just wish you hadn't wrote such long-winded paragraphs. I use to write a lot like that back at gamefaqs but later felt silly over arguing so much over video games. xD********************************************************************
I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I'm just proposing some issues with your theory for the sake of conversation. I'm more of an asshole in the FFXIII forum.I've just done this song and dance before with other R=U theorist, and I'm happy you're willing to create a proper dialogue for discussion about your theory.
But yeah, no reason to get moody over video games. I suppose this discussion is rather pointless since no matter what, it seems like both of us are set in our beliefs. I honestly cannot stand Final Fantasy 'ultimanias' and 'compilations'. Tetsuya Nomura seems hellbent on turning Sephiroth into some sort of Galactus-wannabe and I never liked that.
When I found out the compilation was nothing but fan translations, inaccurate ones at that since Sephiroth was never actually stated to be the strongest in all of Final Fantasy, I feel like it's faulty to rely on unless localized and therefore verifiable by all fans instead of believing whatever fan translators, whose credentials are questionable, say.
