IGN's Top 100 RPG's of All Time

Fuel for bitching and complaining here.

Overall, I like the list. The selection of games is excellent. The order? Not.

Some complaints:
-The Elder Scrolls series is way too high and Morrowind is way better than either Oblivion or Skyrim.
-The Persona series is way too low. That's a Top 50 series if I ever saw one.
-Final Fantasy IX is too low, and there is no FFXII. FFX is too high. FFTA is too high.
-Fallout 3 is the worst in the series yet is in the Top 10.
-I find the Mass Effect series hopelessly overrated and the fact the first two are so high doesn't change my opinion.
-From a personal standpoint, Arcanum would've been on my list. It is hopelessly flawed, though.
-I don't get WoW. As an experience, sure. As a game? Eh.

Some praise:
-The Top 5 is pretty damn near perfect.
-Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate love!
-Mentioning Might & Magic, The Bard's Tale, as well as Wizardry is really cool.
-It's a good mix of WRPG's and JRPG's from a variety of generations and consoles is awesome.
-Ultima love is awesome.
-Odin Sphere was an unexpected but very pleasant surprise.
-Dragon Quest/Warrior love is awesome.
-The resurgence of 90's-style party-based WRPG's as both a topic of discussion and as a genre of game.

It's tough to criticize the top 3, though I don't know about FFIV and Pokemon for 4 and 5, or most of the 6-10. I highly approve of FFT being 14 and Ultima Online being 33, but Lunar: SSSC and Suikoden II got shafted (and no other Suikoden games?). FFIX and Vagrant Story also seem too low, and FFVIII shouldn't even be on there.

Happy With

- Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger being number one and two spot !



Not happy with

- Baldur's Gate II taking the 3rd spot. It's not that good.
- Wow taking 8th spot. What ?
- Final Fantasy VIII being too low. It's not that horrible !
- Persona 4 also being way too low !
- Final Fantasy IX should be in top 10 at least.
- Final Fantasy IV is way too high. It's fun; but not that great.

I agree with everything Raistlin said.

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- Baldur's Gate II taking the 3rd spot. It's not that good.

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There are no words.

Another bulltit list by the goons of IGN.

If you place FFIX, FFX and Vagrant Story well 30-50 places behind Pokémon Black/White (which is pretty much the same game as Red/Blue, you can't deny it) you just know they put zero effort into this besides the top 5.

Oblivion at #22 takes the cake.

EDIT: Deus Ex: Human Revolution must've gone missing in the process.

Will not even read because I can already tell it'll piss me off xD

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Originally Posted by maybee

Baldur's Gate II taking the 3rd spot. It's not that good.

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That's a good-natured jest isn't it? Haha good one.

I like that they put FFVI on first place, but putting Xenoblade Chronicles on 41 is just plain offensive to me. Also, Neverwinter Nights on a higher spot than its sequel? Now that is just blasphemous...

A top 5 that doesn't make me vomit a little in my mouth? A number 1 pick I actually agree with?

Well, no need for me to ever read a top 100 list again because no one will ever write one less offensive to my gaming tastes than this.

Legend of Dragoon at #95 is way too low. I'm not saying it's Top 10, or even Top 20. But it could easily be Top 50.

I also see Phantasy Star at #96. I might have put that in the 70s range, but I can't complain a whole lot about its placement. The sequels were far better anyway.

I did like that they put ff 6 at number one and chrono trigger as number two. I was really pleased they did not forget about secret of mana wink wink. Some of the games I had never heard before. For me when it comes to final fantasy 6 it was such a grand scale of a game I spent hours playing that game. I liked the characters, music, backgrounds, story etc. I was really pleased with this list.

One trendy journalist thing to do in the last few years, since console gamers have been exposed to WRPGs, was to compare them to JRPGs and take the commonly integrated mechanics of WRPGs as proof that JRPGs can never, by the nature of what they are, be as good, much less better, than WRPGs. They are two different genres that have individual strengths that strive towards different goals.

This list made the same mistake of associating them and was even careless enough to take it one step further and throw MMOs into the mix. You simply can't put MMOs on the same grading scale as WRPGs and expect to rank them. Guild Wars 2 is trying really hard to introduce dialogue choices and branching storylines to the genre, but there's only so much it can do because it still has to be an MMO.

All that being said, I do like that FFVI was number one and Chrono Trigger number two, but I have to question how these choices were made. That's a very particular player. To include WRPGs and MMOs on the same list but have the typical SNES enthusiast come out on top is pretty strange.

I disagree. Yes, JRPG's and WRPG's are different, but I think treating them as entirely different genres is the absolute worst thing you could do for both. It seems JRPG's and WRPG's both have fanbases that rarely intermingle and that has caused both genres to so set in their cliches and tropes while dismissing the other's. The thing is, a JRPG and WRPG are ultimately judged to similar standards and while they have different traits that make them unique, ultimately both subgenres need the same mix of proper story and gameplay elements to be successful.

The Top 3 games in this list are an excellent example of games that do the right thing and yet come from different subgenres. All three have tactical battle systems with involving and flexible character development systems. All three have excellent plots and stories that gave you choice without lacking a sense of direction or objective. All three have character and personality. All three have a diverse, interesting, and well-explored cast. All three are emotionally powerful experiences. All three have excellent visuals and music. All three and well-crafted experiences in the same way and while all three are different they each more than fulfills the requirements for what makes a great RPG.

Chrono Trigger needed to be WAAAAAAY down the list. Certainly not number 2. I didn't look at the list but I noticed somebody said that CT got second place.

At least one of the Breath of Fire games and one of the Lufia games better be on the list when I look at it. >:/

I remember scoffing at Tales of Destiny's placement being higher than Tales of Symphonia's. ToD was also credited with many innovations Tales of Phantasia introduced to RPGs.

Also, Wild Arms is among my favorite RPGs, but to say it's better than FFIX, Vagrant Story, and Persona's 3 and 4 is blasphemy.

At this point I'm just going to be glad IGN put these on the list, and then didn't pay any attention to the order.

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Originally Posted by Polnareff

Chrono Trigger needed to be WAAAAAAY down the list. Certainly not number 2. I didn't look at the list but I noticed somebody said that CT got second place.

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Originally Posted by maybee

Not happy with

- Baldur's Gate II taking the 3rd spot. It's not that good.

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What is wrong with you people!? :hot:

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Originally Posted by Edge7

At this point I'm just going to be glad IGN put these on the list, and then didn't pay any attention to the order.

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Yeah, that's about all you can do. I started flipping through the pages going, "I wonder if [insert game] is in here somewhere?"

This list is wack yo.

My Top 10 for no reason!

1. Final Fantasy VI
2. Baldur's Gate II
3. Fallout 2
4. Chrono Trigger
5. Planescape: Torment
6. Final Fantasy IX
7. Persona 3
8. Final Fantasy VII
9. Deus Ex
10. Ultima IV

:cool:

final fantasy mystic quest in the top 3?

halo 3 as #1?

i don't know if i agree but they make valid points

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Originally Posted by Laddy

I disagree. Yes, JRPG's and WRPG's are different, but I think treating them as entirely different genres is the absolute worst thing you could do for both. It seems JRPG's and WRPG's both have fanbases that rarely intermingle and that has caused both genres to so set in their cliches and tropes while dismissing the other's. The thing is, a JRPG and WRPG are ultimately judged to similar standards and while they have different traits that make them unique, ultimately both subgenres need the same mix of proper story and gameplay elements to be successful.

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Come now, I'm sure we could think of "worse" things to do to them than treating them as different genres :p

But I do think they have different goals. WRPGs try to live up to the "role playing" standard of their name. They're the computerization of pen and paper RPGs. You create a character and pretend to be that person throughout the entire game. In executing this philosophy, the game must consequently immerse the player with enough dialogue, which, if placed into a JRPG, I would consider to be bad pacing.

I do agree that it's dangerous to separate the two, as they begin to exclude eachother's techniques to their own detriment. The optional order to tackle things in FFVI and Chrono Trigger were great, and I thought the dialogue options in FFVII were just enough to give you choice while keeping the pace going.

However, it's equally dangerous to encourage these different subgenres to emulate eachother. The current generation of consoles has seen Japan obsessed with "Western game design," as if that was actually a thing, and it has led to catastrophic results. You could argue it's a case of Japanese devs emulating the West poorly, but it's still a side-effect of what you're advocating.

Yeah, I don't disagree on the Top 5, but there are some comments to make on this list.

-Final Fantasy IX is too low. No way The Legend of Dragoon should be above it.
-Fire Emblem on the list is . . . interesting. As much as I love the series, I don't really consider it to be a true RPG. Then again, it and other SRPGs share other core tenets with other RPGs, so I'm not opposed to it.
-Demon's Souls being on the list is great. It would have been a huge oversight if it weren't.
-Final Fantasy Tactics Advance is a personal favorite of mine, but I think it's a little too high in the list.
-Thankfully, Skies of Arcadia is on the list. If it weren't, I'd boycott IGN's gaming section forever.
-Freedom Force is the first game on the list that I can say that I never heard of before reading about it there. Then again, knowing Ken Levine and Irrational, the minds behind System Shock 2 and BioShock, it's hardly a surprise.
-Tactics Ogre is a series I've been interested in, but the fact that I was never much of a Sony system owner prevented me from getting into it. Too bad the Vita is a freaking joke, and I have no interest in the PSP.
-I approve of Dragon Quest V on the list. I haven't played it myself, but I've watched an entire LP of it. I can tell just from watching that it's one of the greats.
-As much of a Pokémaniac that I am, I don't think Black and White should be quite so high.
-I was fully expecting fanboy outrage over VII not even being in the top 10. I'm pleasantly surprised.
-Where is Deux Ex: Human Revolution? I know it's not going to be in the pantheon, but surely it's somewhere in the top 100?
-Oblivion should not be above Morrowind. As much as Oblivion was an improvement in gameplay overall, it regressed when it came to atmosphere, mood, and all of those other little details that make a game immortal.
-I might get flak for this one, but Dark Souls fully deserves this placement. It's one of the best games to come out in this console generation, and it's one of the best to come out in recent memory.

If nothing else, this list is a nice compilation of games that I need to play sometime in the future.

Despite how I came off, I don't advocate emulation between the two, particularly, as you said, due to the emulations often being of poor quality. But I believe part of the reasons why say, JRPG's have started emulating WRPG's, is because the two subgenres were treated so differently a total change of philosophy was necessary to succeed, which I disagree with. Incorporating is better than emulating, after all.

What I do advocate, however, is the two different styles being judged similarly and being compared to each other and thus working off each other. Both evolving. I'm not saying both can't have their own styles and elements, but in the end what I want in an RPG is deep and involved gameplay, strong story and characters, and an overall fun and rewarding experience.

Like you said, part of what made CT and FFVI so great is that they're more open-ended, a trait of WRPG's. What made Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate II so great is they emphasize a concentrated narrative, a trait of notable of JRPG's. In the end all these game because surprisingly similar experiences and all serve as a great example for any RPG, eastern or western.

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Originally Posted by Elite Lord Sigma

-I might get flak for this one, but Dark Souls fully deserves this placement. It's one of the best games to come out in this console generation, and it's one of the best to come out in recent memory.

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I think it deserves a little more actually. Dark Souls > Skyrim any day.

>>> No valkyrie profile?
Chrono cross, FF9, FF10, Xenoblade are too low.. FF4 is too high.
Wild Arms sucked.
Anything that has "Pokemon" on it cant be that good..

that list suck..

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Originally Posted by black orb

Anything that has "Pokemon" on it can't be that good...

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SHUT YO MOUTH, FOO!

I don't know much about the current generation of Pokemon games, but R/B/Y and even G/S/C were great.

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Originally Posted by Polnareff

Chrono Trigger needed to be WAAAAAAY down the list. Certainly not number 2.

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You cray cray ? :eek:

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Originally Posted by Alpha2099

I don't know much about the current generation of Pokemon games, but R/B/Y and even G/S/C were great.

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I didn't play much after red/blue, but all I remember of the 8th grade is Pokemon Red.

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Originally Posted by maybee

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Originally Posted by Polnareff

Chrono Trigger needed to be WAAAAAAY down the list. Certainly not number 2.

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You cray cray ? :eek:

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Even at the time, the only things that stood about it were 1. the Toriyama art (the big reason people got hooked on the game) and 2. the time travel aspect, which wasn't even that grand back then, and seems even less so now. Other games did the "different time period" schtick better, like Live-A-Live (another Square game) but didn't get any notice for it.

All in all, compared to Square's other stuff, the game was too short and too easy, and really Toriyama's art was about the only seriously great thing about it. That and the boss i mentioned earlier. :jess: Should the game be on the list? Maybe. But number 2 is a huge stretch. It should have maybe been no higher than rank 25 or so in my eyes.

that big :skull::skull::skull::skull:-eating grin i made when i first got triple raid at nine years old is why Chrono Trigger will always be #1 in my book

no video game has ever made me feel like an unstoppable miasma of death and destruction after that...especially when i got the rest of the triple-techs and luminaire

Not a bad list, though I feel Chrono Trigger should get top spot for what it does as a game and as a narrative. Not that I don't love VI it's just CT is easily my favorite game of all time.

Other than that...

Praise:
Lufia 2, Lunar 1 and 2, Wild ARMS, Suikoden II, FFIX and BoFIII
Top 25 was mostly good
Like Laddy, I feel it's a good mix of WRPG and JRPGs
FFTactics Advance and Ogre Battle March of the Black Queen got on the list, and were ranked decently.
Got most of my top favorite games on there.

Scold:
Some of the rankings are off, P3, P4, and Vagrant Story should both be much higher on the list, FFIV and Wild ARMS should probably be lower despite my love for both of them.
Snubbed Valkyrie Profile (despite not liking the game, it deserves a mention) Shin Megami Tensei III, KH: Birth By Sleep, BoFIV, and Suikoden III and V. Not to mention FFV.
I honestly don't feel KH2 belongs on this list, same with FFVIII
I will echo Bolivar and say I am not too keen on the idea of MMOs being on this list, but sadly I can't come up with a good enough reason to disqualify them without it also pertaining to a third of the list.

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Originally Posted by Polnareff

Even at the time, the only things that stood about it were 1. the Toriyama art (the big reason people got hooked on the game) and 2. the time travel aspect, which wasn't even that grand back then, and seems even less so now. Other games did the "different time period" schtick better, like Live-A-Live (another Square game) but didn't get any notice for it.

All in all, compared to Square's other stuff, the game was too short and too easy, and really Toriyama's art was about the only seriously great thing about it. That and the boss i mentioned earlier. :jess: Should the game be on the list? Maybe. But number 2 is a huge stretch. It should have maybe been no higher than rank 25 or so in my eyes.

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I won't let you die alone from the torch burns and pitchfork stabs.

I like Chrono Trigger. I like it a lot, actually. It's music, artwork, plot scope, cast, and combat animations all kicked a lot of ass. But there's a good deal of games that kicked just a little bit more. At least for me.

And no, it's not one of those "you didn't play it at the time" things. Dragon Quest V is older, but it's at the tippy top with the rest of my faves. CT isn't. Actually, it probably is one of those "you didn't play it at the time" things, because if you weren't 8-years old when it blew your brains, it probably just won't resonate as hard for you.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

A top 5 that doesn't make me vomit a little in my mouth? A number 1 pick I actually agree with?

Well, no need for me to ever read a top 100 list again because no one will ever write one less offensive to my gaming tastes than this.

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Yeah pretty much. FFVI and CT as 1 and 2 are spot on! Pokemon also shouldn't be denied since it has influenced and entire generation of gamers.

This list makes me want to play Baldur's Gate II now since it's one that has slipped me by.

The Persona games sure have a strong following at this forum! I'm playing P3P right now and honestly I don't get what all the hype is about. I'd say they are appropriately ranked.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Miriel

This list makes me want to play Baldur's Gate II now since it's one that has slipped me by.

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Do it. I'm like a Jehovah's Witness handing out pamphlets with this game and I do it for a reason.

I'll bite, since I haven't had a decent debate in ages.

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Originally Posted by Polnareff

Even at the time, the only things that stood about it were 1. the Toriyama art (the big reason people got hooked on the game) and 2. the time travel aspect, which wasn't even that grand back then, and seems even less so now. Other games did the "different time period" schtick better, like Live-A-Live (another Square game) but didn't get any notice for it.

All in all, compared to Square's other stuff, the game was too short and too easy, and really Toriyama's art was about the only seriously great thing about it. That and the boss i mentioned earlier. :jess: Should the game be on the list? Maybe. But number 2 is a huge stretch. It should have maybe been no higher than rank 25 or so in my eyes.

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Well for one thing, Toriyama was a relative unknown outside of Japan (the original Dragon Ball was canceled in NA due to low ratings the very year Chrono Trigger was released) and yet the game still did surprisingly well across the Pacific. I mean DBZ wouldn't become super popular for three more years after Chrono Trigger was released when Cartoon Network picked up Toriyama's magnum opus series, so I doubt the Toriyama art was the only appealing factor in the West.

Second, I really can't think of a game that really allowed you to screw around with time travel in a gameplay experience as well as CT did it. While I may agree that Live A Live has some interesting gameplay elements for the "different time period schtick" you are missing the point of what Chrono Trigger did differently which was the ability to start altering the world with your choices. Most of the finals quests and final character story arcs involve traveling back and forth through time to change the course of history for you party's needs and it's this freedom that is important, not just the fact I can go to the future and go to the Medeval times. It's the reward element of your choices that make the game standout, but it was also tied together with a good story where you slowly begin to see how everything is interconnected to each other. It also popularized New Game+ mode and has done multiple endings pretty well, so it has lots of replay value.

Is it easy? Yes, but most JRPGs around this time are, because the developers don't want that pesky Game Over screen to discourage players from enjoying the stories they were writing. Thoughj I feel the true challenge of Chronot Trigger wasn't the battles, but rather exploring the world and finding all the ways you can affect the game with your choices and the game did a pretty good job of that until the internet came along and killed the "joy of discovery".

Is it short? Not really... it's a 30-40 hour game which is pretty standard for most JRPGs. Of anything the game has lots of replay value which sets it apart from most JRPGs.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I won't let you die alone from the torch burns and pitchfork stabs.

I like Chrono Trigger. I like it a lot, actually. It's music, artwork, plot scope, cast, and combat animations all kicked a lot of ass. But there's a good deal of games that kicked just a little bit more. At least for me.

And no, it's not one of those "you didn't play it at the time" things. Dragon Quest V is older, but it's at the tippy top with the rest of my faves. CT isn't. Actually, it probably is one of those "you didn't play it at the time" things, because if you weren't 8-years old when it blew your brains, it probably just won't resonate as hard for you.

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Meh, while I feel DQV was a great DQ game, I never felt it was special. So I guess once again we're on the opposing side of the fence. I honestly feel I would have appreciated DQV more had I played it back when it was initially released. It was a good game, a great DQ title, but I certainly didn't change my list of RPGs to accommodate it cause the game failed to be nothing more than a typical DQ title with a few really good standout moments and ideas. To each their own I guess. :p

Twice I've played FFVI and twice I've yet to finish it and have always had no problem putting the game down and doing something else, which to me means the list doesn't fit my personal perspective (and for true internet form, this means it is WRONG WRONG WRONG OMG WTF MAN etc.). But oh well, I like reading over lists like these anyway.

And dammit, I'll finish FFVI eventually. I only have a couple of espers to get and probably a few levels and then I can do the final dungeon and be done with it.

smurfing slack BoB :greenie:

Not my fault the game doesn't keep making me crawl back to it like most FF's do. The thing that really makes me want to finish it is knowing that once I do, I will be playing FFIX, which I'm pretty excited about.

Just ribbin' ya :greenie:

For some reason that just sounds dirty.

Wolf, if anyone was going to get offended and actually respond to CT hate, it's YOU!!!!

First, I don't think Polnareff meant the Toriyama art drew people in because it was popular. I think it drew people in because it was awesome. DBZ may have been cancelled that year, but anime sure was becoming popular at the time. I don't think 8-year olds really cared who the artist was.

And no, CT does not have an upward playtime of 40 hours. It takes roughly 30-35 hours to do everything that's in the game. Playstation 1 + 2 era games take 30-35 hours just to finish the main story. At a minimum.

Lastly, whether or not DQV changed your list is not the issue. The issue is that you can't make a list of the best RPGs with CT in the top ten without having FFVII, Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics, and, if they know their ish, Tactics Ogre ahead of them.

Speaking of games people overrate because they were 8-years old when it released:

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Originally Posted by BoB

Twice I've played FFVI and twice I've yet to finish it and have always had no problem putting the game down and doing something else, which to me means the list doesn't fit my personal perspective (and for true internet form, this means it is WRONG WRONG WRONG OMG WTF MAN etc.). But oh well, I like reading over lists like these anyway.

And dammit, I'll finish FFVI eventually. I only have a couple of espers to get and probably a few levels and then I can do the final dungeon and be done with it.

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Similar, I couldn't bring myself to continue on in FFVI the first time I played it. Admittedly, it's probably because it didn't live up to the hype of the RPG fans who insist that it's better than all my favorite games. I've beaten FFVI about 2-3 times since and while it does have those big "FF moments" that make the series so memorable, I just can't imagine it being so highly rated if it weren't for the fact that it was one of the few big, popular JRPGs to be released in the West at the time. In Japan, where they've played the FF series as it was developed, FFVI does not have the same legacy that it does over here. Better technology, larger teams, and bolder ideas led to better games being developed in the PlayStation 1 + 2 era. And IMO DQV, FFV, and Tactics Ogre are much better SNES RPGs.

Also, you don't need an excuse to play FFIX!

where's evony

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Originally Posted by Levian

where's evony

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you ((.)(.)) can ((.)(.)) play it ((.)(.)) SECRETLY ((.)(.)) at ((.)(.)) WORK ;)
so they can't talk ((.)(.)) about it publicly :(


((.)(.))

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wolf, if anyone was going to get offended and actually respond to CT hate, it's YOU!!!!

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Well yes, it's like you being the only person who responds to VII being overrated It is cause you're a fanboy just as I am for CT. :p Still, it's fun teasing you.

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First, I don't think Polnareff meant the Toriyama art drew people in because it was popular. I think it drew people in because it was awesome. DBZ may have been cancelled that year, but anime sure was becoming popular at the time. I don't think 8-year olds really cared who the artist was.

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Well, seeing how I actually owned an SNES and played CT back in 95, I can tell you that most magazines I read and guys I talked to in school about CT never really mentioned the art style beyond a "Hey, it's cool" we were all more focused on the dual techs, time traveling, and meaningful choices, you know the actual gameplay unlike the Sony era 8-year olds who just liked flashy graphics to sell a game. I mean the VII commercials never even showed gameplay. It just allured fans through the most shallow of reasons cause only kids would care if something looked cool. ;)

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And no, CT does not have an upward playtime of 40 hours. It takes roughly 30-35 hours to do everything that's in the game. Playstation 1 + 2 era games take 30-35 hours just to finish the main story. At a minimum.

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Wait, what was that I mentioned earlier? New Game+ and multiple endings? You can do everything in only 30 hours despite all of that being locked until New Game+? Don't think so, not to forget all the choices that do change the game world which allows you to mix and match what can unfold in the timestream. I'm sorry, none of that sounds like something that can be done in a mere 30 hours when I have so many reasons to replay the game unlike most of the Sony RPGs later that just tell linear stories.

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Lastly, whether or not DQV changed your list is not the issue. The issue is that you can't make a list of the best RPGs with CT in the top ten without having FFVII, Xenogears, Final Fantasy Tactics, and, if they know their ish, Tactics Ogre ahead of them.

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I'm actually surprised you mentioned Xenogears in that list since you also dubbed it as overrated and a lacking game. So I figured you would be happy with it's ranking. Honestly, I wouldn't mind dropping Fallout 3 and WoW and putting Tactics and VII into the top Ten. I still haven't gottn around to Tactics Ogre, it's been sitting in my to-do pile of games for a year now.

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Speaking of games people overrate because they were 8-years old when it released:

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You mean like FFVII?

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Originally Posted by BoB

Twice I've played FFVI and twice I've yet to finish it and have always had no problem putting the game down and doing something else, which to me means the list doesn't fit my personal perspective (and for true internet form, this means it is WRONG WRONG WRONG OMG WTF MAN etc.). But oh well, I like reading over lists like these anyway.

And dammit, I'll finish FFVI eventually. I only have a couple of espers to get and probably a few levels and then I can do the final dungeon and be done with it.

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BoB, we've already determined that you are a basket case cause you actually feel FFXIII is a great game, so I am simply going to ignore all of this.

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Similar, I couldn't bring myself to continue on in FFVI the first time I played it. Admittedly, it's probably because it didn't live up to the hype of the RPG fans who insist that it's better than all my favorite games. I've beaten FFVI about 2-3 times since and while it does have those big "FF moments" that make the series so memorable, I just can't imagine it being so highly rated if it weren't for the fact that it was one of the few big, popular JRPGs to be released in the West at the time. In Japan, where they've played the FF series as it was developed, FFVI does not have the same legacy that it does over here. Better technology, larger teams, and bolder ideas led to better games being developed in the PlayStation 1 + 2 era. And IMO DQV, FFV, and Tactics Ogre are much better SNES RPGs.

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As I said last time you brought this up, I feel your issue comes from both waiting to play the game last and thus allowing the hype to overblow your expectations, which is why this game would never have lived up to your standards.

Second, this is an American list of 100 Best RPGs so god knows we don't give a trout what the Japanese gamers feel, I mean they think FFX is the best game in the world, so god knows I don't trust their opinion.

If you want reasoning for why VI deserves to be in the top ten, I pretty much clarified it in these posts:
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...ml#post3092240

http://home.eyesonff.com/general-squ...ml#post3047342

I know you're issue with the game is due to overblown hype and the viscous VI vs VII blood feud so I don't really expect for you to appreciate the games true strength, but whatever. I'm pretty sure BoB is in the same boat, though I am also sure it's cause his game style preference is heavy linear storytelling so VI's open-endedness and lacking a strong lead for an ensemble cast is also an issue for him.

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Also, you don't need an excuse to play FFIX!

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Yeah I agree, BoB get to work on that.

Wow, Wolf. That was a pretty intense post. I gotta give you some props for that one. Because that's what you want, isn't it? A little attention and praise for what a smart gamer you are? There's only one problem:

You're wrong in almost every feasible way a human being could possibly be wrong.

First, I don't think the measuring stick for whether art drew somebody into a work is if they wrote about it in a magazine or talked about it at length.

And your whole New Game+ argument, again, is a red herring. No one contested that CT has multiple endings. The issue is that CT can be completed, with all of the side content for that playthrough exhausted, in around 30-35 hours. About the same or less the time it takes just to complete the main story alone in PlayStation RPGs.

And Xenogears... ah, yes, sweet Xenogears. Is it overrated? Of course. And it's lacking elements can be demonstrably proven to the extent that only reaching arguments can be raised in its defense. It's not the "far and away" best game out of the PlayStation, Platinum Age of RPGs (I'm coining it). But it's still in that same circle of classics. I can't dispute that. The game missed a lot of basics for me, but it also nailed a lot of the more ambitious stuff so well

I also don't think FFVII shares CT's rationale for hype, that people played it when they were 8. The PlayStation console at the time was marketed for the aging gaming population, teens and young adults, and went a long way towards bringing game consoles out of the closet with the action figures and board games and into the entertainment system, connected to the surround sound.

Fallacy. Whether BoB likes FFXIII or not has no bearing on the capacity to look at FFVI in a reasonable way.

And I don't think my expectations have much to do with my capacity, neither. I read people on this board say DQV was the best in the series before I played it. I may agree with them. I can't say the same about FFVI.

The whole fact that "this is an American list" is also off-topic. I'm not saying we should care what the Japanese think. I'm just accounting for how a community, who could not have played half of VI's predecessors, could come out and say "WOW I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS GAME CAME OUT OF NOWHERE AND DID SO MANY AMAZING THINGS!!!!1"

Anyway, the list is weird. I disagree with it. And I'm not sure why I care about it anymore... :confused:

IX AT 88? THEY MUST BE SMOKIN'!

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

BoB, we've already determined that you are a basket case cause you actually feel FFXIII is a great game, so I am simply going to ignore all of this.

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I never said FFXIII is one of the best games, and I'm not sure if I've actually said it was 'great'. I do believe that the character grouping is arguably the best ever, the time spent showing us each character is the best ever, and that (most notably) it is a good game, not a crap one. You just seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you saying FFXIII is crap seems to have some insane obligation to state that it is a great game, one of the best, etc, when really they can just like the game without seeing it as one of the all time greats.

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I know you're issue with the game is due to overblown hype and the viscous VI vs VII blood feud so I don't really expect for you to appreciate the games true strength, but whatever. I'm pretty sure BoB is in the same boat, though I am also sure it's cause his game style preference is heavy linear storytelling so VI's open-endedness and lacking a strong lead for an ensemble cast is also an issue for him.

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Actually, I don't like heavily linear storytelling although I don't think you need a strong lead for an ensemble cast. FFXIII is very linear, yes, and I would prefer a game to be less linear. But there is reason behind it for FFXIII, there is reason you don't return to old areas (often), etc. I actually criticised FFX for being too linear earlier on, and it's less linear than FFXIII, but it doesn't have any reason to be linear in the first place as far as I'm concerned. As for the strong lead thing, I don't really think many leads in many FF games have been incredibly strong. I disliked Tidus, I wasn't a fan of Vaan (yes, I know you could consider Ashe to be the lead, but that's a whole different debate), Bartz isn't exactly the most inspiring lead ever, Squall is "...", Lightning isn't the best... although I will point out that Lightning is barely the lead in FFXIII. It's an ensemble cast, just like FFVI, only the characters are given much, much more time than VI's cast are - such is the way for every more recent game as they can allow more lines of script and more cinematic sequences every generation. As for linearity, this is a gameplay issue more than a story issue as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise one could argue that VI's (and pretty much every other FF's) story is just as linear. All the key points happen in order, as they do with pretty much any JRPG ever made.

As for my preferred style, the fact that VII, VIII, V and XII are there alongside XIII as my preferred Final Fantasy games pretty much says that linearity is not my preference.

I've almost finished FFVI now! Got the six dragons (two left are in Kefka's Tower) and all espers and every character has every spell available at the moment (exception: Just got Raiden/Quick now, so am still working on a few characters for that, but not heavily bothered). So basically, Kefka's Tower and then I'm golden for FFIX. The gameplay in VI is great, I just find the story scenes to be average. That opera scene is nothing short of boring for me. :p General Leo remains my preferred character in the game, and... yeah.

EDIT: Wow, FFVI's final dungeon was shockingly easy. xD I guess putting all spells on all characters = overpowering?

No BAoTW Forever?

smurf you, IGN. I'm pulling my ads from your website for this.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

BoB, we've already determined that you are a basket case cause you actually feel FFXIII is a great game, so I am simply going to ignore all of this.

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I never said FFXIII is one of the best games, and I'm not sure if I've actually said it was 'great'. I do believe that the character grouping is arguably the best ever, the time spent showing us each character is the best ever, and that (most notably) it is a good game, not a crap one. You just seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you saying FFXIII is crap seems to have some insane obligation to state that it is a great game, one of the best, etc, when really they can just like the game without seeing it as one of the all time greats.

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I know you're issue with the game is due to overblown hype and the viscous VI vs VII blood feud so I don't really expect for you to appreciate the games true strength, but whatever. I'm pretty sure BoB is in the same boat, though I am also sure it's cause his game style preference is heavy linear storytelling so VI's open-endedness and lacking a strong lead for an ensemble cast is also an issue for him.

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Actually, I don't like heavily linear storytelling although I don't think you need a strong lead for an ensemble cast. FFXIII is very linear, yes, and I would prefer a game to be less linear. But there is reason behind it for FFXIII, there is reason you don't return to old areas (often), etc. I actually criticised FFX for being too linear earlier on, and it's less linear than FFXIII, but it doesn't have any reason to be linear in the first place as far as I'm concerned. As for the strong lead thing, I don't really think many leads in many FF games have been incredibly strong. I disliked Tidus, I wasn't a fan of Vaan (yes, I know you could consider Ashe to be the lead, but that's a whole different debate), Bartz isn't exactly the most inspiring lead ever, Squall is "...", Lightning isn't the best... although I will point out that Lightning is barely the lead in FFXIII. It's an ensemble cast, just like FFVI, only the characters are given much, much more time than VI's cast are - such is the way for every more recent game as they can allow more lines of script and more cinematic sequences every generation. As for linearity, this is a gameplay issue more than a story issue as far as I'm concerned. Otherwise one could argue that VI's (and pretty much every other FF's) story is just as linear. All the key points happen in order, as they do with pretty much any JRPG ever made.

As for my preferred style, the fact that VII, VIII, V and XII are there alongside XIII as my preferred Final Fantasy games pretty much says that linearity is not my preference.

I've almost finished FFVI now! Got the six dragons (two left are in Kefka's Tower) and all espers and every character has every spell available at the moment (exception: Just got Raiden/Quick now, so am still working on a few characters for that, but not heavily bothered). So basically, Kefka's Tower and then I'm golden for FFIX. The gameplay in VI is great, I just find the story scenes to be average. That opera scene is nothing short of boring for me. :p General Leo remains my preferred character in the game, and... yeah.

EDIT: Wow, FFVI's final dungeon was shockingly easy. xD I guess putting all spells on all characters = overpowering?

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What FF isn't shockingly easy? :p

Tactics.

And IV DS. ;P

III pisses me the hell off towards the end! still haven't beaten it.

BoB - You know damn well I'm just trolling you. :p

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wow, Wolf. That was a pretty intense post. I gotta give you some props for that one. Because that's what you want, isn't it? A little attention and praise for what a smart gamer you are? There's only one problem:

You're wrong in almost every feasible way a human being could possibly be wrong.

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I love screwing with you, you actually take the trolling to where it needs to be, "playful", and that is why conversing with you is fun. ;)

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First, I don't think the measuring stick for whether art drew somebody into a work is if they wrote about it in a magazine or talked about it at length.

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The problem here is that you have no real basis for an argument here either. The "art style drew people in" and what wonderful record did you pull this from? While my argument has no real merit beyond my personal experience, the same can be said here of your argument as well. When I originally called this out I simply stated facts that would suggest such a statement is not very likely and it was you who jumped on this like it was nothing more than the truth of the matter when there is really no evidence to suggest one element over another. I simply stated evidence to show a counter to the OP's argument and I don't understand why you feel the need to validate it as an actual fact.

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And your whole New Game+ argument, again, is a red herring. No one contested that CT has multiple endings. The issue is that CT can be completed, with all of the side content for that playthrough exhausted, in around 30-35 hours. About the same or less the time it takes just to complete the main story alone in PlayStation RPGs.

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Yes but you missed how I said the game also has multiple elements to change the story and history, if you skip sidequests or choose certain decisions, the game becomes different and thus in order to experience all of CT's story and elements, it would take closer to the 60-80 hour mark, as you would need to play through the game multiple times not only for the endings but to see the alternate scenarios for certain decisions. The replay value actually pushes it to a later generations range, though technically I feel having an 60+ hour RPG today is more exhausting than fun as it's often just padding.

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And Xenogears... ah, yes, sweet Xenogears. Is it overrated? Of course. And it's lacking elements can be demonstrably proven to the extent that only reaching arguments can be raised in its defense. It's not the "far and away" best game out of the PlayStation, Platinum Age of RPGs (I'm coining it). But it's still in that same circle of classics. I can't dispute that. The game missed a lot of basics for me, but it also nailed a lot of the more ambitious stuff so well

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It just strikes me odd that for all of it's faults you would put it in the top ten. This simply just tells me something about how you think, my comment wasn't really a challenge. :p

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I also don't think FFVII shares CT's rationale for hype, that people played it when they were 8. The PlayStation console at the time was marketed for the aging gaming population, teens and young adults, and went a long way towards bringing game consoles out of the closet with the action figures and board games and into the entertainment system, connected to the surround sound.

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Dude, the vast majority of VII fans I've seen on forums, IRL and on surveys about the fandom suggests most VII fans had it as their first FF/RPG they played and were between 8-12 when it came out. While the Playstation may have been marketed towards my age group, it doesn't really change that many of the people who grew up on the Playstation was my age when I was busting my balls trying to get to Level 2 on Ghouls and Goblins on the NES. nce again, this is an argument that has no real solid facts one way or another but from what the census has shown me about VII fans on this forum, most of them were between 8-12 in 97, so until you come up with some hard style spreadsheets from multiple non-partisan affiliates to show that all the VII fans were "mature 16-21 years olds" I feel your argument is baseless. :p

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Fallacy. Whether BoB likes FFXIII or not has no bearing on the capacity to look at FFVI in a reasonable way.

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True, but I'm just teasing him cause that's what I do. :D

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And I don't think my expectations have much to do with my capacity, neither. I read people on this board say DQV was the best in the series before I played it. I may agree with them. I can't say the same about FFVI.

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Well first off, we're not exactly a heavy duty DQ fanbase, whereas as a VII fan for fifteen years, you've had to hear about this annoying game called FFIII/VI from older or more knowledgeable FF fans, who insist it's just as good or even better than a game you love. Unless you've been on a heavy DQ fan forum for ten years that I didn't know about, I would say the exposure to the hype is very different and not to mention the argumentative nature of this hype compared to a title you love is going to create a little bias on some level, no matter how much feel you may be unbias. The fact you have the audacity to even suggest it's the same thing as DQV's hype tells me you are either full of bulltrout or you are some kind of saint whom we should enshrine in a mausoleum and have holy men take great pilgrimages to worship under your teachings, cause you lack any bias or pettiness.

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The whole fact that "this is an American list" is also off-topic. I'm not saying we should care what the Japanese think. I'm just accounting for how a community, who could not have played half of VI's predecessors, could come out and say "WOW I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS GAME CAME OUT OF NOWHERE AND DID SO MANY AMAZING THINGS!!!!1"

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Yes but if this were a European list I could argue the list is the same issue with VII since it was pretty much the first real FF released in the PAL, regions, you can't really argue the love and "wonderment" of the game in PAL regions suffers from the same issues since they had not really played the first six games before it and even then didn't play them until years later after VII. I still don't feel that completely invalidates the opinions of these people despite my disagreement.

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Anyway, the list is weird. I disagree with it. And I'm not sure why I care about it anymore... :confused:

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You care cause you haven't had a good long drawn out, petty fanboy argument in a long time. Lists like this are bound to create this, I mean just skimming the responses is filled with troll bait, and your own "in defense of Polnareff" post was pretty much unnecessary for anything besides toll baiting. :D

WK - You know damn well I always respond to trolling seriously. :p Why would people bother trolling me if they weren't going to get a response? :) On a sidenote, I can only assume from your lack of reaction to my post that you are conceding that I am right in everything I say.

I think people have just taken the default position of you being wrong in all cases BoB.

In that case, VI must be a horrible game, because I think it isn't. ;)

I just wanna go over some highlights:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I love screwing with you, you actually take the trolling to where it needs to be, "playful", and that is why conversing with you is fun. ;)

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Me too. Here we go -

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[O]nce (sic) again, this is an argument that has no real solid facts one way or another but from what the census has shown me about VII fans on this forum, most of them were between 8-12 in 97, so until you come up with some hard style spreadsheets from multiple non-partisan affiliates to show that all the VII fans were "mature 16-21 years olds" I feel your argument is baseless. :p

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Fallacy. Whether BoB likes FFXIII or not has no bearing on the capacity to look at FFVI in a reasonable way.

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True, but I'm just teasing him cause that's what I do. :D

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The fact you have the audacity to even suggest it's the same thing as DQV's hype tells me you are either full of bulltrout or you are some kind of saint whom we should enshrine in a mausoleum and have holy men take great pilgrimages to worship under your teachings, cause you lack any bias or pettiness.

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You know, say what you want about these drawn out, short novel length response posts, but at least some of it was able to give me a couple serious laughs.

...but not nearly as many laughs as the unfathomably nonsensical arguments you put forth! :mock:

I think the CT length argument has muddled, but the original assertion, that it is a short game, can be upheld. I may have muddled it talking about how long it takes to explore all the content, but the truth is, anyway you slice it, it is a short game because there is only so long one playthrough can be. And that length is shorter than later generation games, some of which do have alternate scenarios and multiple endings.

And about DQ, I'll admit, it probably didn't have the same impact as the VI/VII debate. Mostly because DQ fans are, by and large, not as infeasibly insane as you FFVI fan are... The things that actually come out of your mouths are terrifying... But at the time I was a huge fan of DQVIII, I thought it was one of the best RPGs I ever played yet here I was confronted with another group of people telling me an SNES game was better. But, again, there's the distinction, that these people were arguably right.

I also want to echo BoB's statement about FFVI's linearity. Yes, all the major events pretty much progress in a logical order. But even then, when it comes to the non-linear elements, saying FFVI is nonlinear is like saying Mega Man is nonlinear. You're basically just choosing what order you complete an array of sequences, with little to no impact on the story if you don't do them at all. Please don't berate me about the ending. Whether or not I see what happens to the 9th character or whether or not I skipped re-recruiting them is a trifle.

Anyway, I'll just end this with what I said about Xenogeras. I actually wouldn't put Xenogears in my top 10. But I also understand that more often than not, my peers probably would put it there. I'm ok with that, because the game was a really powerful emotional experience. But anyway you slice it, it's hard to objectively argue that it's not a much better game than Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy VI.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

In that case, VI must be a horrible game, because I think it isn't. ;)

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No, it just means you probably like FF VI for all the wrong reasons or something. ;P

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I never said FFXIII is one of the best games, and I'm not sure if I've actually said it was 'great'. I do believe that the character grouping is arguably the best ever, the time spent showing us each character is the best ever, and that (most notably) it is a good game, not a crap one. You just seem to think that anyone who disagrees with you saying FFXIII is crap seems to have some insane obligation to state that it is a great game, one of the best, etc, when really they can just like the game without seeing it as one of the all time greats.

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I'm sure you said it was a great game in some thread, but honeslty, it's not that I isagree with your position, it's honeslty that I find the idea of XIII being enjoyable as such a foreign concept that I honestly have to try to construct the type of individual who could possibly find enjoyment from this insufferable, poorly told, and tedious game simply results in a migraine. I honestly can't see anything good enough in this title to feel it deserves evn being called an "okay game". It is seriously the worst thing I've played since I was a child playing some of the shoevelware titles on the NES. I will be honest when I say I don't really trust any other games such a person would recommend cause we are seriously from two different worlds if that trite is anything more that utter trout. It is 40 hours of my life I will never get back and I seriously want a refund.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Otherwise one could argue that VI's (and pretty much every other FF's) story is just as linear. All the key points happen in order, as they do with pretty much any JRPG ever made.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I also want to echo BoB's statement about FFVI's linearity. Yes, all the major events pretty much progress in a logical order. But even then, when it comes to the non-linear elements, saying FFVI is nonlinear is like saying Mega Man is nonlinear. You're basically just choosing what order you complete an array of sequences, with little to no impact on the story if you don't do them at all. Please don't berate me about the ending. Whether or not I see what happens to the 9th character or whether or not I skipped re-recruiting them is a trifle.

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Well not really with VI as the player's choices can affect minor things in the game (such as the fate of one party member or whether a certain character joins you) as well as the fact that the WoR is technically non-linear as the player can choose to actually finish some or all of the characters stories, or go straight to the end, unlike most of the FF series where the final dungeon doesn't open up until all of the main story has been told. As soon as you get the airship, you could just head straight to Kefka's Tower and choose to end the game whereas the players power to control the flow of other FF games is pretty much a choice of playing or not playing. The game is filled with hidden scenes and certain consequences for choices and you will never discover them without either a guide or seriously exploring the game and trying new things, which is somethign you can't really say about a game like FFXIII or even Xenogears for that matter.

It's not Elder Scrolls non-linear but for a JRPG, especially a story driven one like VI, it's pretty unique for the genre and something I feel is important and should return. JRPGs thrive on the illusion of choice and I feel VI/CT found a pretty decent sweet spot of doing that without making the story suffer for it.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

As for my preferred style, the fact that VII, VIII, V and XII are there alongside XIII as my preferred Final Fantasy games pretty much says that linearity is not my preference.

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I wouldn't really count most of those titles as being non-linear. They are certainly not as linear as XIII but there are few RPGs that are linear as XIII (thank god) which is more like a high budget visual novel with a middle management A.I. battle system tacked on. :D

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I've almost finished FFVI now! Got the six dragons (two left are in Kefka's Tower) and all espers and every character has every spell available at the moment (exception: Just got Raiden/Quick now, so am still working on a few characters for that, but not heavily bothered). So basically, Kefka's Tower and then I'm golden for FFIX. The gameplay in VI is great, I just find the story scenes to be average. That opera scene is nothing short of boring for me. :p General Leo remains my preferred character in the game, and... yeah.

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Glad you had fun which is the most important thing in all of this, disagree about your thoughts on the story or opera scene but that's a discussion for another day. You have no excuse for not posting in the VI forums anymore, so get to work.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

EDIT: Wow, FFVI's final dungeon was shockingly easy. xD I guess putting all spells on all characters = overpowering?

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Yeah...:eep:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think the CT length argument has muddled, but the original assertion, that it is a short game, can be upheld. I may have muddled it talking about how long it takes to explore all the content, but the truth is, anyway you slice it, it is a short game because there is only so long one playthrough can be. And that length is shorter than later generation games, some of which do have alternate scenarios and multiple endings.

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The real question here is does it even matter? In hindsight, our discussion almost sounds like we're putting some value on the length of a game when I'm sure you and I could agree it's a meaningless assertion unless you're a budget gamer and even then we could at least agree CT offers enough content to satisfy someone who may only be able to have one game for awhile. This is probably the dumbest argument we've ever had. :D

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

And about DQ, I'll admit, it probably didn't have the same impact as the VI/VII debate. Mostly because DQ fans are, by and large, not as infeasibly insane as you FFVI fan are... The things that actually come out of your mouths are terrifying... But at the time I was a huge fan of DQVIII, I thought it was one of the best RPGs I ever played yet here I was confronted with another group of people telling me an SNES game was better. But, again, there's the distinction, that these people were arguably right.

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Says the man who is part of the fanbase that lapped up every single drip of the god awful Compilation of VII just so they could get a hard on watching Sephy and Cloud fight like they were in the Matrix, or the group that argues over Aerith vs Aeris spelling, or even arguing whether Cloud should date the chick the story blatantly tells you he winds up with, or a dead chick. That's a high class fanbase for you. :semicolonpee:

On the more "serious" matters, my point is that the context is completely different in your situation. On paper it sounds like a similar scenario but everything from length of exposure to the hype as well as how meaningful the game was to you changes everything. You may have loved DQVIII, but I doubt it did for you what FFVII did so it's really not the same scenario. I honestly wasn't surprised that I liked DQV more than DQVIII but I didn't exactly 'love" DQVIII either as I felt it's main strengths were simply the series finally producing a game with modern RPG standards in terms of graphics, character building, and story. Even then I felt other games did it better. DQV is a great game and I would probably concede it's the best in the series despite my personal bias for DQIII and that I feel DQIII is a much more important game for both the series and the genre unlike DQV, but I was a little sad the game didn't completely live up to the hype, especially since I tend to have a bias for the 16-bit classics.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm sure you said it was a great game in some thread, but honeslty, it's not that I isagree with your position, it's honeslty that I find the idea of XIII being enjoyable as such a foreign concept that I honestly have to try to construct the type of individual who could possibly find enjoyment from this insufferable, poorly told, and tedious game simply results in a migraine. I honestly can't see anything good enough in this title to feel it deserves evn being called an "okay game". It is seriously the worst thing I've played since I was a child playing some of the shoevelware titles on the NES. I will be honest when I say I don't really trust any other games such a person would recommend cause we are seriously from two different worlds if that trite is anything more that utter trout. It is 40 hours of my life I will never get back and I seriously want a refund.

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Well, you dislike a game. *shrug* These things happen. I thought FFII was quite rubbish gameplay-wise (and the story wasn't exactly incredible either, the characters were certainly underdeveloped) and a chore to finish, but that doesn't mean I disregard that some people might like that kind of thing and still be able to make a reasonable reccomendation. Reccomendations should never be taken as anything more than "I happen to like this game, so maybe you will too." Every game could end up being something you love or don't... no need to flip out just because you ate something and found it didn't hit your taste buds right.

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Well not really with VI as the player's choices can affect minor things in the game (such as the fate of one party member or whether a certain character joins you) as well as the fact that the WoR is technically non-linear as the player can choose to actually finish some or all of the characters stories, or go straight to the end, unlike most of the FF series where the final dungeon doesn't open up until all of the main story has been told. As soon as you get the airship, you could just head straight to Kefka's Tower and choose to end the game whereas the players power to control the flow of other FF games is pretty much a choice of playing or not playing. The game is filled with hidden scenes and certain consequences for choices and you will never discover them without either a guide or seriously exploring the game and trying new things, which is somethign you can't really say about a game like FFXIII or even Xenogears for that matter.

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You could say a lot of those things about games like VII, VIII and XII. Possibly V too. But yet you say...

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

As for my preferred style, the fact that VII, VIII, V and XII are there alongside XIII as my preferred Final Fantasy games pretty much says that linearity is not my preference.

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I wouldn't really count most of those titles as being non-linear.

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I think you're just being immensely biased if you say that VI is non-linear but VII, VIII and XII are not. Or you don't know much about VII, VIII and XII. But I know you do, so :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2g7g...eature=related

FINAL FANTASY VI IS NUMBER ONE!!!!!! :bigsmile:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Well, you dislike a game. *shrug* These things happen. I thought FFII was quite rubbish gameplay-wise (and the story wasn't exactly incredible either, the characters were certainly underdeveloped) and a chore to finish, but that doesn't mean I disregard that some people might like that kind of thing and still be able to make a reasonable reccomendation. Reccomendations should never be taken as anything more than "I happen to like this game, so maybe you will too." Every game could end up being something you love or don't... no need to flip out just because you ate something and found it didn't hit your taste buds right.

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I'm not flipping out, I am trying my best to verbalize how inconceivable it is for me to believe someone could actually like the game. I have people say it to me all the time too, so it's not like I feel my taste are somehow "holier than thou's" but I do tend to be apprehensive of titles that people recommend who like certain games I don't. I have a friend irl who liked XIII and even X and some other games I felt were rubbish, so I usually brace myself whenever I play a title he recommends for me, despite us both having some common ground on some titles.

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You could say a lot of those things about games like VII, VIII and XII. Possibly V too. But yet you say...

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Not on the scale VI did it, I would probably count VII and XII (though this is more about gameplay than story) being similar but I will explain why the others are not quite the same. VIII has one choice that can actually alter the story a bit and three minor sidequests that have some story purposes but otherwise the player has very little in the way of affecting the game beyond leveling and progressiing. Same with V as even though you get to choose what order to proceed certain events, it doesn't change that the story actually requires you to do most of it before allowing you to end the game, this is where VI is unique because once you get the airship, you can choose to finish the game or find the rest of the party, and then choose to find closure for some of them. Doing the quest to get Aerith's Final Limit break is not the same as unlocking Shadow's past by trying to get all of his dreams. Getting Odin in V or VIII is not the same as it was in VI where the player is also witness to a story giving background to the game's world and giving hope to one character if you had the foresight to put them into your party. This is what I mean, the story is affected by the player bothering to do all these things whereas in most of the games you mentioned, the sidequests are simply means of getting a few extra items or levels and have little to no bearing on the plot. Yes, all of the games you mentioned do have one or two sidequests that can give insight into the story, but VI actually intends for you to finish the story on your own terms whereas the other titles simply use them as rewards for going off the beaten path occasionally.

While choosing the order of events isn't unique to VI, I would argue that VI is more non-linear because it gives you the choice of finishing the game whenever you want whereas all the other titles still require you to do the majority of the quests and skip to the end. Oh how I wish I could just ignore the Hug Materia quest and just jump to the invasion of Midgard in Disc 2 but no, I still have to do everything to get to the North Crater in Disc 3 all the same. Whereas in VI, once I get the airship, I could save the next 5-10 hours of my life and just storm Kefka's Tower with Celes, Edgar and Setzer (we call this a CES run ;) ) and just finish the game. The bulk of the Ruin World is one long set of optional chain quests, but most of them offer story incentives whereas most sidequests don't. There are non-linear gameplay elements in all the games you mentioned, but VI is the one that gives the player the most amount of freedom with the fewest restrictions. It's the scale of the choice that makes VI the most "non-linear" entry in the series. In the end, much like the "is CT 30 hours long or 60 hours long" debate, it really doesn't matter if one entry has more non-linear elements over another as it's just a gameplay mechanic at the end of the day and some people appreciate it, others hate it, and some don't really care. I would still probably call VI a linear RPG, espcially when compared to the Elder Scroll series, Mass Effect, and Baldur's Gate, just in comparison to the rest of the series, I feel VI has the most non-linear elements.

Just like having a leveling system doesn't necessarily mean a game is an RPG, having a handful of choices that only affect one or two elements of the game doesn't make the game non-linear. VI has several choices that both affect short term and long terms, as well as gameplay and the stoy. While my friend Bolivar may scoff at the idea of the the players ability to affect the game's ending by choosing not to finish the characters story, it doesn't really change the fact the player can affect the story and even the ending by their choices, which is much more inlined with what a non-linear title is. Now I am not saying VI is a WRPG, the game is still a JRPG with a mostly linear story but it has WRPG elements that allow the player to have more of a semblance of contol that is largely lacking in the rest of the series.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I honestly can't see anything good enough in this title to feel it deserves evn being called an "okay game". It is seriously the worst thing I've played since I was a child playing some of the shoevelware titles on the NES. I will be honest when I say I don't really trust any other games such a person would recommend cause we are seriously from two different worlds if that trite is anything more that utter trout. It is 40 hours of my life I will never get back and I seriously want a refund.

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Wolf, this is seriously insane for so many reasons. I know you like to play Devil's Advocate but this is one if those instances where I really can't tell and I really hope you're okay, especially with two "honest" drops and 3 "seriously"s up in there, because this is crazy, crazy talk. I know you've played Assassin's Creed 1. If I had to choose between doing the same six mission types with horrible combat and a poorly fleshed out plot, or go through FFXIII, I would pour a drink, put in XIII and rock out to the sickest soundtrack in gaming today!!!!

Haha, ok, maybe the soundtrack isn't the best, but you get my point.

And for the record, I've NEVER purchased or even played any of the Compilation titles. I've only downloaded an Asian file of Advent Children and patched it with English subtitles but that's as far as I've gone.

And I would say that Dragon Quest VIII came very close if not did on the PS2 what FFVII did on the PS1 for me. It was like a new day and I did think that it may be the best RPG ever. Theres something about bringing an NES game into beautiful fully realized cell shading that made it such a huge game.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

If I had to choose between doing the same six mission types with horrible combat and a poorly fleshed out plot, or go through FFXIII, I would pour a drink, put in XIII and rock out to the sickest soundtrack in gaming today!!!!

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Is getting stabbed in the kidney by a rusted knife an option in this scenario? Cause I'll take that one.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wolf, this is seriously insane for so many reasons. I know you like to play Devil's Advocate but this is one if those instances where I really can't tell and I really hope you're okay, especially with two "honest" drops and 3 "seriously"s up in there, because this is crazy, crazy talk. I know you've played Assassin's Creed 1. If I had to choose between doing the same six mission types with horrible combat and a poorly fleshed out plot, or go through FFXIII, I would pour a drink, put in XIII and rock out to the sickest soundtrack in gaming today!!!!

Haha, ok, maybe the soundtrack isn't the best, but you get my point.

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I am actually being pretty honest here, I really hate this game and I really did walk away from it feeling like I wasted my money and my time on it. I may not be as bombastic about my opinion irl as I am on the forum but I'm dead serious that's it's the worst triple A title on the market right now. It's not just bad for an FF, it's just a bad game. While AC1 is certainly a poorly designed game (I don't know anyone, even die hard AC fans who would argue that AC1 is not the worst mainline entry in the series) I still appreciate it more cause it allowed me to explore the story more creatively, I still had the fun of running around and killing people by actually interacting with the world and the weak plot actually has a pretty big surprise at the end that made trudging through it feel a little more worth it (still not going to give it a second try) and got me to pick up AC2 the next day. In the end, AC1 was an actual game I interacted with and played.

As opposed to a title that restricted my movements, forced me to always move at it's discretion in only one direction, hampered me with a battle system where the game did most of the work, burdened me with a boring and even more dumbed down leveling system and poorly implemented equipment system so even customization feels mostly trivial so god know I gave up on opening the menu after awhile, and then forced me to experience a poorly paced Action sci-fi flick whose few cool themes and ideas were stolen from Persona 3 and then poorly implemented by having the whinest cast of characters who perpetually spewed the same nonsense for half the game until they got interrupted by the evil space pope who might as well be wearing a big smurfing neon sign that says "I'm the bad guy". It's plot is best summarized in a paragraph and then the game takes 40 hours to waste your goddamn time so your party could finally do what they said they weren't going to do 40 hours earlier at the beginning of the game, and then everything is resolved in an ass backwards literal Deus Ex Machina, I mean an actual Deus Ex Machina not just the literary variety, but the classical Greek definition where a god shows up and makes everything mostly right, who the smurf does that? That is the Xeno Team's territory. Maybe as a parody I could see how this title could be somewhat amusing, but it plays everything straight, and takes itself way too seriously, even trying to emulate various places and events from VII. What few good elements and ideas it may have come up with cannot atone for every other game design and writing sin the creators did to this title. XII was in a super long development but when you actually got to play it and see the technical marvel of the game and all the little things the developers did for it, it all made sense, XIII was in the same development period, and came out as a terrible pulp summer popcorn flick that you forget as quickly as you experience it.

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And for the record, I've NEVER purchased or even played any of the Compilation titles. I've only downloaded an Asian file of Advent Children and patched it with English subtitles but that's as far as I've gone.

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That's cause you're afraid of the Compilation. :zombert:

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And I would say that Dragon Quest VIII came very close if not did on the PS2 what FFVII did on the PS1 for me. It was like a new day and I did think that it may be the best RPG ever. There's something about bringing an NES game into beautiful fully realized cell shading that made it such a huge game.

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While I can appreciate the beauty of bringing an NES game to full cel shaded glory, I found the game mostly lacking in other parts, it was a fun ride but I feel once the technical marvels wore off, the actual story and mechanics couldn't hold my attention. I still haven't even finished the Dragon Dungeon and gotten the alternate ending. Though I may say it's normal ending is probably one of the best in the series.

Wolf, we get it. You think FFXIII is linear. How original... ;)

The real issue is why you ever spent 40 hours with the game if it is indeed as unfathomably horrible as you put forth. I recently started Dragon Age: Origins. It was a cool game, I enjoyed how it was all put together, but after completing a decent chunk of it, I decided it just wasn't for me. I put it down and picked up Oblivion on my quest to check out WRPGs.

But for you to play a game from start to finish yet come here and complain about how immorally it treated you, I'm thinking either the game really isn't that bad and you did get some enjoyment from it, or you really need to do some reflecting about the life choices you make.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wolf, we get it. You think FFXIII is linear. How original... ;)

The real issue is why you ever spent 40 hours with the game if it is indeed as unfathomably horrible as you put forth. I recently started Dragon Age: Origins. It was a cool game, I enjoyed how it was all put together, but after completing a decent chunk of it, I decided it just wasn't for me. I put it down and picked up Oblivion on my quest to check out WRPGs.

But for you to play a game from start to finish yet come here and complain about how immorally it treated you, I'm thinking either the game really isn't that bad and you did get some enjoyment from it, or you really need to do some reflecting about the life choices you make.

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1) It is linear. There really isn't a debate here. :p

2) You don't seem to understand something here. Me and Wolf like to bitch.

A lot.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Wolf, we get it. You think FFXIII is linear, poorly written, rips off ideas from better games, and then proceeds to implement them as poorly as possible. ;)

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I fixed it for you. :)

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The real issue is why you ever spent 40 hours with the game if it is indeed as unfathomably horrible as you put forth. I recently started Dragon Age: Origins. It was a cool game, I enjoyed how it was all put together, but after completing a decent chunk of it, I decided it just wasn't for me. I put it down and picked up Oblivion on my quest to check out WRPGs. But for you to play a game from start to finish yet come here and complain about how immorally it treated you, I'm thinking either the game really isn't that bad and you did get some enjoyment from it, or you really need to do some reflecting about the life choices you make.

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Well that is kind of easy to explain, it was the only game I had at the time for my PS3 and I had no internet so I couldn't access PSN. It was also one of those titles where people kept saying it got better the further you got in and I kept playing, waiting for that "a-ha" moment. Honestly, I'm just stubborn about finishing games, and have a high tolerance for crap. I've said before I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles, but it hasn't stopped me from occasionally popping it back in and playing a chapter, waiting for it to finally connect with me.

I share the idea that Dragon Age is totally overatted and I cannot see its appeal. To me, it just seemed way too generic in every way possible. It was well-written, but the totally boring setting, uninspired quests, and unpleasant gameplay ruined the experience for me.

I have a few friends who insist I should play it.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I have a few friends who insist I should play it.

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Don't. Get Baldur's Gate II, Planescape: Torment, or Fallout 2. Plus, you can get them for cheap on Good Old Games.

I should restart Baldur's Gate 1 and actually finish it.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I should restart Baldur's Gate 1 and actually finish it.

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You should ;) The sequel is a lot better, but it's still nice to experience this game first - it makes you connect with the characters more and some of the twists in the sequel may matter to you more that way. Plus, you get to transfer data.

Deus ex at 25? For the longest time I thought it was agreed that Deus Ex is one of the greatest video games ever made but I think I need to reevaluate that thought. What a horribly under appreciated game. Should be in the top 5.

Other than that and snubbing the Phantasy Star games (I've always been aware that people never cared for that series) the list isn't so bad.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well that is kind of easy to explain, it was the only game I had at the time for my PS3 and I had no internet so I couldn't access PSN. It was also one of those titles where people kept saying it got better the further you got in and I kept playing, waiting for that "a-ha" moment. Honestly, I'm just stubborn about finishing games, and have a high tolerance for crap. I've said before I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles, but it hasn't stopped me from occasionally popping it back in and playing a chapter, waiting for it to finally connect with me.

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No. Will not believe you. No way, Wolf. You don't get out of it that easily, the fact that you played forty hours in a game that you would leave us to believe is truly as bad as you think. When the only game I had on PS3 was Motorstorm, which I actually liked, I didn't just play Motorstorm. I plugged in older consoles, I played older games, I rented PS3 titles. Please don't think we're dumb enough to believe you played through the game because it was all you had on a new console and people told you it got better.

People tell me Lost gets better, but that didn't get me to continue watching it. And I thought Lost was decent enough, not "the worst possible thing that could ever potentially happen in any parallel universe" that you seem to think FFXIII is. Sorry.

And I didn't say Dragon Age is overrated!!! It just wasn't for me.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well that is kind of easy to explain, it was the only game I had at the time for my PS3 and I had no internet so I couldn't access PSN. It was also one of those titles where people kept saying it got better the further you got in and I kept playing, waiting for that "a-ha" moment. Honestly, I'm just stubborn about finishing games, and have a high tolerance for crap. I've said before I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles, but it hasn't stopped me from occasionally popping it back in and playing a chapter, waiting for it to finally connect with me.

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No. Will not believe you. No way, Wolf. You don't get out of it that easily, the fact that you played forty hours in a game that you would leave us to believe is truly as bad as you think. When the only game I had on PS3 was Motorstorm, which I actually liked, I didn't just play Motorstorm. I plugged in older consoles, I played older games, I rented PS3 titles. Please don't think we're dumb enough to believe you played through the game because it was all you had on a new console and people told you it got better.

People tell me Lost gets better, but that didn't get me to continue watching it. And I thought Lost was decent enough, not "the worst possible thing that could ever potentially happen in any parallel universe" that you seem to think FFXIII is. Sorry.

And I didn't say Dragon Age is overrated!!! It just wasn't for me.

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I played through games I hated even after I determined I hated them. Not sure why you'd have an issue believing Wolf did it. :p

Playing video games you hate is strange, but there are vast ideological chasms between "games I hate" and what Wolf is making FFXIII out to be.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Playing video games you hate is strange, but there are vast ideological chasms between "games I hate" and what Wolf is making FFXIII out to be.

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I despised Dante's Inferno, and believe that it was a perfect example of everything wrong with gaming today, and very few games out there can invoke such hatred from me.

I determined this after about an hour and a half, yet still I finished it. :p

I don't deny it's strange, but Wolf is hardly normal. ;P

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Playing video games you hate is strange, but there are vast ideological chasms between "games I hate" and what Wolf is making FFXIII out to be.

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I feel the same way Wolf does about FFXIII, but I made it past some of the early sections of Gran Pulse before my PS3 died and spared me the misery. You may think it's crazy, but there are reasons for it:

1) I have a habit of beating new FF titles when they come out. Even if I'm not overly fond of them, I dislike leaving them unfinished.
2) I was planning to write a review for the site which never really got finished since I never finished the game.
3) People continuously said it gets better, that the battle system really starts to open up after a few hours and is really engaging by the time you get to Gran Pulse (they were wrong).
4) By the time I was at Gran Pulse I just figured smurf it, I'll finish it and have a pretty damn well informed opinion on why this is one of the worst games I've ever played.

For the record, I hate Resident Evil 4 for a variety of reasons as well and I finished that one, in part just so I would never have to listen to people use stupid arguments like "it get's better later." If anyone ever says that, even if they're right, I give everyone my permission to punch them in the jaw and tell them they're an idiot for recommending a game when only half of it is good at best.

And I could definitely buy the fact that WK didn't have much to play at the time. I was in a bit of a rut back then as well with no new titles that really grabbed me and not really being in the mood to play many older titles. I was also unemployed and bored senseless so I usually played something to kill the several hours between when I checked the job ads and when my wife came home.

So i guess you have me there. Playing FFXIII was marginally better than day time TV. One of the few things which is actually worse than the idea of laying my head down behind the wheel of my car and getting someone to back over it. That's not saying much about FFXIII though.

So there you have it. Wolf and I both played an absurd amount of a game we hate. Please don't try and tell us something silly like because we played so much of it we must not really hate it. Because I know that I'm certainly more aware of my thoughts and feelings on the matter than you are.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well that is kind of easy to explain, it was the only game I had at the time for my PS3 and I had no internet so I couldn't access PSN. It was also one of those titles where people kept saying it got better the further you got in and I kept playing, waiting for that "a-ha" moment. Honestly, I'm just stubborn about finishing games, and have a high tolerance for crap. I've said before I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles, but it hasn't stopped me from occasionally popping it back in and playing a chapter, waiting for it to finally connect with me.

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No. Will not believe you. No way, Wolf. You don't get out of it that easily, the fact that you played forty hours in a game that you would leave us to believe is truly as bad as you think. When the only game I had on PS3 was Motorstorm, which I actually liked, I didn't just play Motorstorm. I plugged in older consoles, I played older games, I rented PS3 titles. Please don't think we're dumb enough to believe you played through the game because it was all you had on a new console and people told you it got better.

People tell me Lost gets better, but that didn't get me to continue watching it. And I thought Lost was decent enough, not "the worst possible thing that could ever potentially happen in any parallel universe" that you seem to think FFXIII is. Sorry.

And I didn't say Dragon Age is overrated!!! It just wasn't for me.

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Vivi22 for the most part answered this for me, so I would defer to him. I will answer some nagging questions:

1) Yes, I did play other games than XIII, I had to stop cause I knew I wouldn't be able to bring myself to finish XIII if I stopped playing altogether.
2) I don't rent games, I haven't since I was a kid.
3) I am pretty stubborn about things and I couldn't bring myself not to finish a numbered entry no matter how obnoxious I found it, I'm that much of an FF Fanboy. Granted, the battle system saves it to some degree, but it was later on I realized how boring it was. After I finished the game I tried to do a few trophies cause it wouldn't involve dealing with the plot and I quickly got bored with the battle system, it's just not fun enough to carry the game for so long.
4) I also wanted to give the game every chance to prove itself to me. Didn't want to deal with that nonsense "you didn't like it cause you gave up too soon and didn't see the good part" so I played it to the end, so I could explain to people every nuance of the game's bad writing. I am a troll after all. :D

If you want a diary log of my only playthrough here it is:
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...lla-rad-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...ell-all-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...venture-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...ll-yeah-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...n-games-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...i-swear-3.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...ted-end-2.html

You'll notice I my feelings for the game get progressively worst the further I get into the game and I even mention that I was debating to just give up and not finish it.

This isn't about Dante's Inferno or Resident Evil 4. This isn't about Vivi having his head backed over by a car. This isn't even about whether or not any of you liked the game. This is what it comes down to:

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It is seriously the worst thing I've played since I was a child playing some of the shoevelware titles on the NES.

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This statement confirms either 1 or 2 things about a person:

1) You never owned an NES.

or

2) You're a drama queen.

I guess you could say "no, a troll!" Speaking of trolling:

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Originally Posted by Wolf

It is 40 hours of my life I will never get back and I seriously want a refund.

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Originally Posted by Wolf

so I played it to the end, so I could explain to people every nuance of the game's bad writing. I am a troll after all

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So which is it, Wolf? Are you for real "serious" when you say you seriously want a refund? Or would you rather have trolling material? Which one is it? You can't have your Chocobo and ride it, too :choc2:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

This isn't about Dante's Inferno or Resident Evil 4. This isn't about Vivi having his head backed over by a car. This isn't even about whether or not any of you liked the game. This is what it comes down to:

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It is seriously the worst thing I've played since I was a child playing some of the shoevelware titles on the NES.

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This statement confirms either 1 or 2 things about a person:

1) You never owned an NES.

or

2) You're a drama queen.

I guess you could say "no, a troll!" Speaking of trolling:

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Well actually, I do own a NES (2 to be precise) and I wrote a rather stirring blog about the death of one of them when omgmygame.com was still around.

I honestly don't know what it is about this statement that confounds you? Are you just perplexed that NES games are bad or something? I mean the game is pretty awful and if I need to spell it out for you, feel free to Mognet message me and I will write you a book about why this game is awful. Hell save us both some times and just start looking up my posts in the XIII forum. ;)

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Originally Posted by Wolf

It is 40 hours of my life I will never get back and I seriously want a refund.

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Originally Posted by Wolf

so I played it to the end, so I could explain to people every nuance of the game's bad writing. I am a troll after all

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So which is it, Wolf? Are you for real "serious" when you say you seriously want a refund? Or would you rather have trolling material? Which one is it? You can't have your Chocobo and ride it, too :choc2:

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Honestly, I wish I never played it, and due to the negative backlash it got from some forum members (I mean the threads I posted are located on page four of a game that's been out for over two years on the forum, so it's in NES land in terms of activity) I decided as a part of staff to be the bigger man and chose to ignore the game much like I do FFX. So I never got to troll it like I should have, though I may change my mind about both cause I feel both games deserve a serious rimming and I should at least get some entertainment from suffering through both games.

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To be honest, I don't understand why you can't fathom that someone would play through a $60 investment, especially a long time fan of said franchise, even if they felt the game was horrible. If you read those posts I linked to you, the combat system was all that really kept my interest and even then, in hindsight, I decided it was my least favorite in the series cause it lacks substance. I gave the game every shot to turn itself around and it utterly failed, in fact it exceeded my low expectations of the title which I honestly didn't think was possible but obviously you can't count anything out. I am also just a OCD gamer about things, simple as that, I am compelled to finish games I started regardless of my personal feelings about them and I mentioned before, I did actually play other games when I couldn't stand it anymore so it's not like it's all I played for a week.

I know you are grasping at straws for the opportunity for me to fess up to some deep subconscious affection for the game that you feel I may have, but it's really not there, I am simply eccentric about my gaming habits. I mean I have my Wii and PS2 hooked up to my HDTV and my PS3 is on my old crappy TV from college with a built in VHS deck. :p

I'm not doubting you had an NES. But NES shovelware titles, a lot of them were unplayable, or very close to it. They didn't have stories. They had barebones sprites and sounds, some of which could barely be called arranged music. So saying FFXIII is worst thing you played since then is such an unimaginable comparison, it's kind of the poster child for how dramatic you're being when it comes to the game. Yes, it was worth a couple laughs :D

But I'm not suggesting you like it, never have, only pointing out how self-defeating your over-the-top attempts at discrediting it are (which you just confirmed retreating from your "i played to troll" assertion), which started in part at you explaining, semi-seriously i hope, why you would never hold BoB's opinion to have a shred of credibility, who has since stopped replying to this thread in which case this shadow of a debate should probably cease since we derailed more than a full page of a thread.

I never thought FFXIII would be the game to get us to do it...:eek:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I'm not doubting you had an NES. But NES shovelware titles, a lot of them were unplayable, or very close to it. They didn't have stories. They had barebones sprites and sounds, some of which could barely be called arranged music. So saying FFXIII is worst thing you played since then is such an unimaginable comparison, it's kind of the poster child for how dramatic you're being when it comes to the game. Yes, it was worth a couple laughs :D

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Not really, the issue here is you are misquoting me as though I'm comparing the quality as the same in terms of FFXIII's overall quality when I said that it was as "fun" as the NES shovelware games of yesteryear. I mean I had to seriously think back to when I actually played a game that bored me and pissed me off in every conceivable way and it was thinking back to some of those old NES games (Back to the Future first came to mind) which I feel really means I've been able to dodge the bullet so to speak in overly bad games. I don't even consider my statement over the top, I've spoken in length how the game fails at almost everything in other threads and even you can't argue the game feels pretty empty compared to almost every entry before it. Even when you've complained about the game's shortcomings you've honestly echoed many of my sentiments especially in wondering how a game with such a huge budget and development period could do so little compared to say XII (or some of he older games), where we all know what was happening for all those years in development.

I am being honest when I say it's not just a bad FF but actually just a bad game. I mean if you didn't like the plot Bolivar, what else is there in the game that makes it good?

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But I'm not suggesting you like it, never have, only pointing out how self-defeating your over-the-top attempts at discrediting it are (which you just confirmed retreating from your "i played to troll" assertion), which started in part at you explaining, semi-seriously i hope, why you would never hold BoB's opinion to have a shred of credibility

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Yes, but I've also mentioned I like trollng him (it's the EoFF forum pastime after-all), so my statement is only half-serious, though he does make statements that confound me at times, but what makes him any different from anyone else I've debated on the forum with?

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I never thought FFXIII would be the game to get us to do it...:eek:

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Well, I don't post often in the XIII forums, and you've never really taken a serious stab at my points on why the game is weak in that forum (BoB is the XIII apologist most of the time). Just going through some of the threads I did bother to post in post-release, you tend to ignore my comments most of the time. I always assumed it's because you partially agreed with me, but didn't want to give me the satisfaction by saying it outright. ;)

Well, as I was getting at with my last post, this isn't the time nor place to discuss my feelings on FFXIII. But I do want to apologize that I didn't acknowledge your posts in every single FFXIII thread I contributed to, I know how anguishing you must feel to write one of your diatribes and not have me take note, so for any emotional pain I've caused you, I'm sorry. :p

But I will say this, just to wrap up the XIII-centric discussion we've had on how it relates to a player's critical credibility.

I think when you engage in discussions on forums, you become far too aware and lose some of your ability to experience a game as the player is intended to. We play the role of both historian and game designer; we contextualize video games even before we've finished them and make judgments on whether the developers made a good or bad decision with the game systems, even as we're encountering them. I'll admit that I have my grand ideas floating around my head sometimes while I play games. I'll admit that they were in my head when I played Final Fantasy VI and may have unfairly magnified some of its faults.

But that doesn't mean that I'm unable to put those ideas aside and just enjoy a game. A game doesn't have to have an original plot, it doesn't have to meaningfully iterate on previous combat systems, it doesn't have to redeem the nonsensical interview quotes by the developers, it doesn't have to put marks into a group of imaginary chekboxes in order for me to just sit back and enjoy a video game.

I've had a couple games not live up to the hype and expectations I set for them. But I was still able to enjoy the amazing dungeon design of FFVI. I was still able to appreciate how awesome the ride Chrono Trigger took me on was.

And I was able to appreciate that FFXIII had, hands down, the most fully developed characters and best party interaction out of the entire Final Fantasy series to date. :luigi:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

I think when you engage in discussions on forums, you become far too aware and lose some of your ability to experience a game as the player is intended to. We play the role of both historian and game designer; we contextualize video games even before we've finished them and make judgments on whether the developers made a good or bad decision with the game systems, even as we're encountering them. I'll admit that I have my grand ideas floating around my head sometimes while I play games. I'll admit that they were in my head when I played Final Fantasy VI and may have unfairly magnified some of its faults.

But that doesn't mean that I'm unable to put those ideas aside and just enjoy a game. A game doesn't have to have an original plot, it doesn't have to meaningfully iterate on previous combat systems, it doesn't have to redeem the nonsensical interview quotes by the developers, it doesn't have to put marks into a group of imaginary chekboxes in order for me to just sit back and enjoy a video game.

I've had a couple games not live up to the hype and expectations I set for them. But I was still able to enjoy the amazing dungeon design of FFVI. I was still able to appreciate how awesome the ride Chrono Trigger took me on was.

And I was able to appreciate that FFXIII had, hands down, the most fully developed characters and best party interaction out of the entire Final Fantasy series to date. :luigi:

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No offense Bolivar, but this argument is complete smurfing horsetrout. A good game is a good game. It doesn't matter if I'm coming at it as a "player" (whatever the hell that even means), a game designer, a critic, or whatever other category you want to throw out. If a game is fun, it will be enjoyable on some level to all of these people. The idea that a game might not be enjoyable if you assess it critically, but will be if you stop thinking and just play is ludicrous to me. Why should I have to stop using my brain to enjoy anything? This is a silly argument and holds no water with me. If I've got to approach a game as some uninitiated player with no preconceptions about what a game is, should, or could be in order for it to be fun then it is a bad game. Either because it's actually a terrible game, or because it was made for a completely different kind of player. perhaps someone who doesn't bother to think critically about what they play, or doesn't play many games save for on their phone while on their lunch break.

But even if a game wasn't made for an audience of people like me, that does not invalidate any critique people such as myself or Wolf might have of it. And just because we find almost every aspect of a game unenjoyable doesn't mean we're blind to the things it gets right. I certainly consider FFXIII to be one of the least enjoyable games I have ever played, but I've never tried to cover up the fact that Sazh was a pretty well written and relatable character even if the rest of the cast were some of the worst characters I've seen in a game with constantly changing motivations, unbelievable reactions to the events of the game, and subject to making some monumentally stupid choices because the plot dictated that they needed to to move things where the writer wanted them to go. It's just too bad that Sazh (SPOILER)didn't blow his brains out because at least then Square might actually have surprised me for once.

A thread about IGN's top 100 RPGs isn't the place to debate this, but if you can't understand how expectations can affect a playing experience, then I don't think we'd have a fruitful discussion anyhow.

WK: For what it's worth, reading through the posts you made in the chapter threads, I don't think it was only the battle system which kept you going or anything like that. It looks like you got fed up after chapter 9 or so, and there were certainly always some things that annoyed you, but there were a lot of things that you said with appreciation as well. And I don't mean 10% of a post, I mean closer to 50%. Maybe you just remember the bad things far more than the good things, but I don't think you played the game all that long while you were under the impression it was rubbish. It looks to me that you were undecided over whether it was rubbish until quite far in.

Bolivar: I played throgh FFII despite thinking it was crap. It was a proper chore, too. There were a few things that I liked in it, sure, but the general gameplay which was 90% of the game (if not more) was something I couldn't stand. So I can completely understand that WK would play that far into a game despite not enjoying himself, although I am of the impression he has painted a picture in his head retrospectively that is much worse than the picture he was painting when half way through the game.

EDIT: I can relate to Bolivar in that I don't feel the global plot of FFXIII was anything to shout about, but I enjoyed the game anyway because of things like the settings, the characters, the lore and an enjoyable battle system. And when I mention lore, I mean the thoughts behind the entire universe, not the plot. It was very interesting for me.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

WK: For what it's worth, reading through the posts you made in the chapter threads, I don't think it was only the battle system which kept you going or anything like that. It looks like you got fed up after chapter 9 or so, and there were certainly always some things that annoyed you, but there were a lot of things that you said with appreciation as well. And I don't mean 10% of a post, I mean closer to 50%. Maybe you just remember the bad things far more than the good things, but I don't think you played the game all that long while you were under the impression it was rubbish. It looks to me that you were undecided over whether it was rubbish until quite far in.

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There were things I was happy they didn't go into, as I said, I went into the game with abysmal expectations, so I was expecting far worse from the get go so my happy thoughts are largely being proven wrong. I honestly felt the implosion of the plot at Chapter 9 really undermined everything and after I had more time to really digest the plot, I came to the conclusion that even some of the elements I felt were okay were actually pretty stupid in hindsight.

My main example being the whole story about Hope/Snow which only after I finished and started playing through P3 again, I realized it was a copy paste of the story of Shinji/Ken's story. In comparison, I feel the P3 version is just better on all accounts, Ken is more likable, more troubled, and I feel that he deals with the situation in a fairly realistic way which made it have more of an impact especially in how it ended. In contrast, Hope kind of spend the first several chapters waffling about what to do and his early interactions with Snow just seemed more awkward than strong character development. I kind of feel like the writer wasn't sure what angle to go with it and tried them all, which made it feel disjointed, it largely lost me when the story kept going out of its way to drive up the angst with all the coincidences and Snow acting a bit dumber than normal in Palumporom to just set the whole climatic scene up. A lot of it was unnecessary. What Hope really needed was an internal monologue so the player could see what he's thinking, I felt Lightning needed one too cause she's just a poor Squall imitation in my book.

Basically in reflecting back, I saw the game for what it was. Even the battle system which I felt was enjoyable, I still feel it's the weakest battle system in the series. It had its strengths but I feel the weaknesses do it in because there are so many of them.

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EDIT: I can relate to Bolivar in that I don't feel the global plot of FFXIII was anything to shout about, but I enjoyed the game anyway because of things like the settings, the characters, the lore and an enjoyable battle system. And when I mention lore, I mean the thoughts behind the entire universe, not the plot. It was very interesting for me.

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I think the lore was cool too but much like FFVIII and FFX, I felt the execution was pretty awful. I mentioned before that Agito/Type 0 uses a similar lore but from what I read of it, it sounds better than what XIII did with it.

Damn, maybe I should change my position, it sounds like Wolf actually did subconsciously like FFXIII...

:lol: It's like a Sitcom would with you guys.

Next season we'll start dating and then the series will be canceled cause all the sexual tension is gone. :p

Also, "like" is a strong term, I would prefer to say I didn't hate it as much until it proved me wrong.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

but if you can't understand how expectations can affect a playing experience, then I don't think we'd have a fruitful discussion anyhow.

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Obviously they can, but that's not really what you argued even if that was what you meant to argue. Going into a game with certain expectations, and approaching a game from the viewpoint of a game designer, a reviewer, a journalist, etc. are not necessarily the same thing. And while I would agree that expectations can colour a game experience, I do not agree that they always do, or that their effect overrides how innately fun or well made a game is most of the time. It all depends on just what sort of expectations are built up and how far it strays from them, and how open the individual is to that. Expectations alone didn't make a lot of fans criticize FFXIII for being a bad game even if the only way they can articulate those feelings is to compare it to older titles most of the time.

And for the record, I was actually kind of looking forward to FFXIII before it was released. I didn't play it until a few months after it came out, largely ignored the fan reaction until I was in the middle of it, and had had my interest piqued by many of the developer interviews right before release which made it sound interesting, and reviews which said it was pretty good. Up until the point I played it my interest went from next to nothing to me looking forward to it. Then I played it, looked at it objectively, and simply determined that it is a poorly made game on just about every level. It may have been a highly polished turd, but it still stank.

That's real interesting. For me it was kinda the opposite, I felt like the news kept getting worse and worse about what the game was going to be like. From hearing that there were no towns because apparently "you can't do that in HD" to the world not opening up until towards the end, it was a huge nightmare for me. My ex at the time was playing it while I was busy with my first year of law school and all the dialogue I heard coming out of the TV screen sounded abysmal. And then I was hearing the reaction, not from this site because I avoided the section until I beat the game, but the review scores and user comments.

Anyway, when I was talking about viewing the game as a designer or journalist I was being facetious. It was a general commentary on how the average gamer will get really technical about why a game system fails when in reality they're not a game designer.

An example is my own reaction to FFXIII's battle system. I personally think it's a failure. I thought it poorly emulated the systems in FFX and FFXII without having any of the factors that made them good, but still suffering all the trappings. The active battle combat just wasn't as good as FFXII; you couldn't program your characters at anywhere near a similar level and it led to your AI allies making mistakes in combat. It was enormously frustrating at times. Accordingly, the Crystarium seemed like a poor man's node sphere. The Node sphere was awesome because keys were limited. If you wanted to go off the beaten path, you had to give up one of your few keys. The way you can mix and match character classes depending on where you were was really awesome. The Crystarium falls flat because it's completely linear - you can get to the end of a character's primary vocations just by playing through the main game. And customization is meaningless since you can only really be one thing at a time.

But that's in an in-depth analysis. That it doesn't reach the strategic heights of FFXII or the deep customization of FFX doesn't change a simple fact: it's actually still a decent system. It's fun and large serves its purpose enough to take you through an RPG. Granted, I like critiquing it on forums. But it was fun for the game.

That's just my own personal experience with how we as RPG forum posters get too critical at times.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

An example is my own reaction to FFXIII's battle system. I personally think it's a failure. I thought it poorly emulated the systems in FFX and FFXII without having any of the factors that made them good, but still suffering all the trappings. The active battle combat just wasn't as good as FFXII; you couldn't program your characters at anywhere near a similar level and it led to your AI allies making mistakes in combat. It was enormously frustrating at times. Accordingly, the Crystarium seemed like a poor man's node sphere. The Node sphere was awesome because keys were limited. If you wanted to go off the beaten path, you had to give up one of your few keys. The way you can mix and match character classes depending on where you were was really awesome. The Crystarium falls flat because it's completely linear - you can get to the end of a character's primary vocations just by playing through the main game. And customization is meaningless since you can only really be one thing at a time.

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What made it even worse was that you didn't really get money after battle...you have to grind specific enemies just to tally up the gil, then they make everything you can buy really expensive.

Weapon customization was awful too since it took so long to raise the weapons up levels and you knew you'd get something that's most likely better in the future.

Then, of course, rpgs add in the most annoying achievements (which aren't as important but do add a little more to the game).

^ that's another example, the weapon levelling system. I thought it was pretty arbitrary. But going with my post, it serves adequately enough and it's kinda cool that you need to manage a balance between natural and man-made items to get big level boosts.

It's another example on how game design offending my sensibilities shouldn't affect my ability to just enjoy a title.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

^ that's another example, the weapon levelling system. I thought it was pretty arbitrary. But going with my post, it serves adequately enough and it's kinda cool that you need to manage a balance between natural and man-made items to get big level boosts.

It's another example on how game design offending my sensibilities shouldn't affect my ability to just enjoy a title.

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I thought it was completely arbitrary, as well as totally unnecessary. I beat the game, five starred every encounter, including Vicengetorix, excluding the Long GUI (ha, autocorrect), without upgrading a single weapon once. It was stupid, pointless busywork, and it felt like it.

Nevertheless, I did finish the game, and as such, I find myself viewing this thread with a question in my head: what is with all the FFXII love? That was a game so boring I didn't beat it (got up to about the Suncryst), yet you all seem to hold it in such high regard. What gives?

I feel Bolivar said it best.

That reminds me, I should finally post my top ten RPGs...

Sky, how many times have you played it? I would hate to tell an EoFFer "you need to replay it to get it," but that was the case for me. The story suffers from poor pacing, but if you play a straight playthrough to watch the story unfold, I'd say it's one of the best told and best performed stories in RPGs. Also I enjoyed the feeling of exploration the game allowed, where you can just head out into an area and map it out, going along the sides then plungin in to the middle. The wonderful soundtrack, gorgeous locations, and fun combat system made it all worth it for me. No other FF really has that. And yeah, I think the combat is that good. I didn't truly realize its genius until I realized that a war of attrition optional boss that once took me 45 minutes to complete went down in about 11 minutes, just from the smarter way I set up my gambits on my second playthrough after having a better mastery of the system. That's a horribly written sentence, but I hope it might convey that this was a killer game on all fronts and I think it's a nice twin to Dragon Quest VIII as two games that came late in the PS2's life cycle, late in the glory days of RPGs, before the onset of The Dark Ages.

Give it another try. It's been so many years with so many mediocre games you might think it's the best you ever played :eek:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I feel Bolivar said it best.

That reminds me, I should finally post my top ten RPGs...

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Ass :roll2

In an article someone said Pokemon is an "expertly crafted rpg"........okay.