IGN's Top 100 RPG's of All Time

[Bolivar]

Well that is kind of easy to explain, it was the only game I had at the time for my PS3 and I had no internet so I couldn't access PSN. It was also one of those titles where people kept saying it got better the further you got in and I kept playing, waiting for that "a-ha" moment. Honestly, I'm just stubborn about finishing games, and have a high tolerance for crap. I've said before I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles, but it hasn't stopped me from occasionally popping it back in and playing a chapter, waiting for it to finally connect with me.

No. Will not believe you. No way, Wolf. You don't get out of it that easily, the fact that you played forty hours in a game that you would leave us to believe is truly as bad as you think. When the only game I had on PS3 was Motorstorm, which I actually liked, I didn't just play Motorstorm. I plugged in older consoles, I played older games, I rented PS3 titles. Please don't think we're dumb enough to believe you played through the game because it was all you had on a new console and people told you it got better.

People tell me Lost gets better, but that didn't get me to continue watching it. And I thought Lost was decent enough, not "the worst possible thing that could ever potentially happen in any parallel universe" that you seem to think FFXIII is. Sorry.

And I didn't say Dragon Age is overrated!!! It just wasn't for me.

[NeoCracker]

Well that is kind of easy to explain, it was the only game I had at the time for my PS3 and I had no internet so I couldn't access PSN. It was also one of those titles where people kept saying it got better the further you got in and I kept playing, waiting for that "a-ha" moment. Honestly, I'm just stubborn about finishing games, and have a high tolerance for crap. I've said before I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles, but it hasn't stopped me from occasionally popping it back in and playing a chapter, waiting for it to finally connect with me.

No. Will not believe you. No way, Wolf. You don't get out of it that easily, the fact that you played forty hours in a game that you would leave us to believe is truly as bad as you think. When the only game I had on PS3 was Motorstorm, which I actually liked, I didn't just play Motorstorm. I plugged in older consoles, I played older games, I rented PS3 titles. Please don't think we're dumb enough to believe you played through the game because it was all you had on a new console and people told you it got better.

People tell me Lost gets better, but that didn't get me to continue watching it. And I thought Lost was decent enough, not "the worst possible thing that could ever potentially happen in any parallel universe" that you seem to think FFXIII is. Sorry.

And I didn't say Dragon Age is overrated!!! It just wasn't for me.

I played through games I hated even after I determined I hated them. Not sure why you'd have an issue believing Wolf did it.

[Bolivar]

Playing video games you hate is strange, but there are vast ideological chasms between "games I hate" and what Wolf is making FFXIII out to be.

[NeoCracker]

Playing video games you hate is strange, but there are vast ideological chasms between "games I hate" and what Wolf is making FFXIII out to be.

I despised Dante's Inferno, and believe that it was a perfect example of everything wrong with gaming today, and very few games out there can invoke such hatred from me.

I determined this after about an hour and a half, yet still I finished it.

I don't deny it's strange, but Wolf is hardly normal. ;P

[Slothy]

Playing video games you hate is strange, but there are vast ideological chasms between "games I hate" and what Wolf is making FFXIII out to be.

I feel the same way Wolf does about FFXIII, but I made it past some of the early sections of Gran Pulse before my PS3 died and spared me the misery. You may think it's crazy, but there are reasons for it:

1) I have a habit of beating new FF titles when they come out. Even if I'm not overly fond of them, I dislike leaving them unfinished.
2) I was planning to write a review for the site which never really got finished since I never finished the game.
3) People continuously said it gets better, that the battle system really starts to open up after a few hours and is really engaging by the time you get to Gran Pulse (they were wrong).
4) By the time I was at Gran Pulse I just figured smurf it, I'll finish it and have a pretty damn well informed opinion on why this is one of the worst games I've ever played.

For the record, I hate Resident Evil 4 for a variety of reasons as well and I finished that one, in part just so I would never have to listen to people use stupid arguments like "it get's better later." If anyone ever says that, even if they're right, I give everyone my permission to punch them in the jaw and tell them they're an idiot for recommending a game when only half of it is good at best.

And I could definitely buy the fact that WK didn't have much to play at the time. I was in a bit of a rut back then as well with no new titles that really grabbed me and not really being in the mood to play many older titles. I was also unemployed and bored senseless so I usually played something to kill the several hours between when I checked the job ads and when my wife came home.

So i guess you have me there. Playing FFXIII was marginally better than day time TV. One of the few things which is actually worse than the idea of laying my head down behind the wheel of my car and getting someone to back over it. That's not saying much about FFXIII though.

So there you have it. Wolf and I both played an absurd amount of a game we hate. Please don't try and tell us something silly like because we played so much of it we must not really hate it. Because I know that I'm certainly more aware of my thoughts and feelings on the matter than you are.

[Wolf Kanno]

Well that is kind of easy to explain, it was the only game I had at the time for my PS3 and I had no internet so I couldn't access PSN. It was also one of those titles where people kept saying it got better the further you got in and I kept playing, waiting for that "a-ha" moment. Honestly, I'm just stubborn about finishing games, and have a high tolerance for crap. I've said before I don't care for Valkyria Chronicles, but it hasn't stopped me from occasionally popping it back in and playing a chapter, waiting for it to finally connect with me.

No. Will not believe you. No way, Wolf. You don't get out of it that easily, the fact that you played forty hours in a game that you would leave us to believe is truly as bad as you think. When the only game I had on PS3 was Motorstorm, which I actually liked, I didn't just play Motorstorm. I plugged in older consoles, I played older games, I rented PS3 titles. Please don't think we're dumb enough to believe you played through the game because it was all you had on a new console and people told you it got better.

People tell me Lost gets better, but that didn't get me to continue watching it. And I thought Lost was decent enough, not "the worst possible thing that could ever potentially happen in any parallel universe" that you seem to think FFXIII is. Sorry.

And I didn't say Dragon Age is overrated!!! It just wasn't for me.

Vivi22 for the most part answered this for me, so I would defer to him. I will answer some nagging questions:

1) Yes, I did play other games than XIII, I had to stop cause I knew I wouldn't be able to bring myself to finish XIII if I stopped playing altogether.
2) I don't rent games, I haven't since I was a kid.
3) I am pretty stubborn about things and I couldn't bring myself not to finish a numbered entry no matter how obnoxious I found it, I'm that much of an FF Fanboy. Granted, the battle system saves it to some degree, but it was later on I realized how boring it was. After I finished the game I tried to do a few trophies cause it wouldn't involve dealing with the plot and I quickly got bored with the battle system, it's just not fun enough to carry the game for so long.
4) I also wanted to give the game every chance to prove itself to me. Didn't want to deal with that nonsense "you didn't like it cause you gave up too soon and didn't see the good part" so I played it to the end, so I could explain to people every nuance of the game's bad writing. I am a troll after all.

If you want a diary log of my only playthrough here it is:
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...lla-rad-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...ell-all-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...venture-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...ll-yeah-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...n-games-2.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...i-swear-3.html
http://home.eyesonff.com/final-fanta...ted-end-2.html

You'll notice I my feelings for the game get progressively worst the further I get into the game and I even mention that I was debating to just give up and not finish it.

[Bolivar]

This isn't about Dante's Inferno or Resident Evil 4. This isn't about Vivi having his head backed over by a car. This isn't even about whether or not any of you liked the game. This is what it comes down to:

It is seriously the worst thing I've played since I was a child playing some of the shoevelware titles on the NES.

This statement confirms either 1 or 2 things about a person:

1) You never owned an NES.

or

2) You're a drama queen.

I guess you could say "no, a troll!" Speaking of trolling:

It is 40 hours of my life I will never get back and I seriously want a refund.

so I played it to the end, so I could explain to people every nuance of the game's bad writing. I am a troll after all

So which is it, Wolf? Are you for real "serious" when you say you seriously want a refund? Or would you rather have trolling material? Which one is it? You can't have your Chocobo and ride it, too

[Wolf Kanno]

This isn't about Dante's Inferno or Resident Evil 4. This isn't about Vivi having his head backed over by a car. This isn't even about whether or not any of you liked the game. This is what it comes down to:

It is seriously the worst thing I've played since I was a child playing some of the shoevelware titles on the NES.

This statement confirms either 1 or 2 things about a person:

1) You never owned an NES.

or

2) You're a drama queen.

I guess you could say "no, a troll!" Speaking of trolling:

Well actually, I do own a NES (2 to be precise) and I wrote a rather stirring blog about the death of one of them when omgmygame.com was still around.

I honestly don't know what it is about this statement that confounds you? Are you just perplexed that NES games are bad or something? I mean the game is pretty awful and if I need to spell it out for you, feel free to Mognet message me and I will write you a book about why this game is awful. Hell save us both some times and just start looking up my posts in the XIII forum.

It is 40 hours of my life I will never get back and I seriously want a refund.

so I played it to the end, so I could explain to people every nuance of the game's bad writing. I am a troll after all

So which is it, Wolf? Are you for real "serious" when you say you seriously want a refund? Or would you rather have trolling material? Which one is it? You can't have your Chocobo and ride it, too

Honestly, I wish I never played it, and due to the negative backlash it got from some forum members (I mean the threads I posted are located on page four of a game that's been out for over two years on the forum, so it's in NES land in terms of activity) I decided as a part of staff to be the bigger man and chose to ignore the game much like I do FFX. So I never got to troll it like I should have, though I may change my mind about both cause I feel both games deserve a serious rimming and I should at least get some entertainment from suffering through both games.

***********************************************************************

To be honest, I don't understand why you can't fathom that someone would play through a $60 investment, especially a long time fan of said franchise, even if they felt the game was horrible. If you read those posts I linked to you, the combat system was all that really kept my interest and even then, in hindsight, I decided it was my least favorite in the series cause it lacks substance. I gave the game every shot to turn itself around and it utterly failed, in fact it exceeded my low expectations of the title which I honestly didn't think was possible but obviously you can't count anything out. I am also just a OCD gamer about things, simple as that, I am compelled to finish games I started regardless of my personal feelings about them and I mentioned before, I did actually play other games when I couldn't stand it anymore so it's not like it's all I played for a week.

I know you are grasping at straws for the opportunity for me to fess up to some deep subconscious affection for the game that you feel I may have, but it's really not there, I am simply eccentric about my gaming habits. I mean I have my Wii and PS2 hooked up to my HDTV and my PS3 is on my old crappy TV from college with a built in VHS deck.

[Bolivar]

I'm not doubting you had an NES. But NES shovelware titles, a lot of them were unplayable, or very close to it. They didn't have stories. They had barebones sprites and sounds, some of which could barely be called arranged music. So saying FFXIII is worst thing you played since then is such an unimaginable comparison, it's kind of the poster child for how dramatic you're being when it comes to the game. Yes, it was worth a couple laughs

But I'm not suggesting you like it, never have, only pointing out how self-defeating your over-the-top attempts at discrediting it are (which you just confirmed retreating from your "i played to troll" assertion), which started in part at you explaining, semi-seriously i hope, why you would never hold BoB's opinion to have a shred of credibility, who has since stopped replying to this thread in which case this shadow of a debate should probably cease since we derailed more than a full page of a thread.

I never thought FFXIII would be the game to get us to do it...

[Wolf Kanno]

I'm not doubting you had an NES. But NES shovelware titles, a lot of them were unplayable, or very close to it. They didn't have stories. They had barebones sprites and sounds, some of which could barely be called arranged music. So saying FFXIII is worst thing you played since then is such an unimaginable comparison, it's kind of the poster child for how dramatic you're being when it comes to the game. Yes, it was worth a couple laughs

Not really, the issue here is you are misquoting me as though I'm comparing the quality as the same in terms of FFXIII's overall quality when I said that it was as "fun" as the NES shovelware games of yesteryear. I mean I had to seriously think back to when I actually played a game that bored me and pissed me off in every conceivable way and it was thinking back to some of those old NES games (Back to the Future first came to mind) which I feel really means I've been able to dodge the bullet so to speak in overly bad games. I don't even consider my statement over the top, I've spoken in length how the game fails at almost everything in other threads and even you can't argue the game feels pretty empty compared to almost every entry before it. Even when you've complained about the game's shortcomings you've honestly echoed many of my sentiments especially in wondering how a game with such a huge budget and development period could do so little compared to say XII (or some of he older games), where we all know what was happening for all those years in development.

I am being honest when I say it's not just a bad FF but actually just a bad game. I mean if you didn't like the plot Bolivar, what else is there in the game that makes it good?

But I'm not suggesting you like it, never have, only pointing out how self-defeating your over-the-top attempts at discrediting it are (which you just confirmed retreating from your "i played to troll" assertion), which started in part at you explaining, semi-seriously i hope, why you would never hold BoB's opinion to have a shred of credibility

Yes, but I've also mentioned I like trollng him (it's the EoFF forum pastime after-all), so my statement is only half-serious, though he does make statements that confound me at times, but what makes him any different from anyone else I've debated on the forum with?

I never thought FFXIII would be the game to get us to do it...

Well, I don't post often in the XIII forums, and you've never really taken a serious stab at my points on why the game is weak in that forum (BoB is the XIII apologist most of the time). Just going through some of the threads I did bother to post in post-release, you tend to ignore my comments most of the time. I always assumed it's because you partially agreed with me, but didn't want to give me the satisfaction by saying it outright.

[Bolivar]

Well, as I was getting at with my last post, this isn't the time nor place to discuss my feelings on FFXIII. But I do want to apologize that I didn't acknowledge your posts in every single FFXIII thread I contributed to, I know how anguishing you must feel to write one of your diatribes and not have me take note, so for any emotional pain I've caused you, I'm sorry.

But I will say this, just to wrap up the XIII-centric discussion we've had on how it relates to a player's critical credibility.

I think when you engage in discussions on forums, you become far too aware and lose some of your ability to experience a game as the player is intended to. We play the role of both historian and game designer; we contextualize video games even before we've finished them and make judgments on whether the developers made a good or bad decision with the game systems, even as we're encountering them. I'll admit that I have my grand ideas floating around my head sometimes while I play games. I'll admit that they were in my head when I played Final Fantasy VI and may have unfairly magnified some of its faults.

But that doesn't mean that I'm unable to put those ideas aside and just enjoy a game. A game doesn't have to have an original plot, it doesn't have to meaningfully iterate on previous combat systems, it doesn't have to redeem the nonsensical interview quotes by the developers, it doesn't have to put marks into a group of imaginary chekboxes in order for me to just sit back and enjoy a video game.

I've had a couple games not live up to the hype and expectations I set for them. But I was still able to enjoy the amazing dungeon design of FFVI. I was still able to appreciate how awesome the ride Chrono Trigger took me on was.

And I was able to appreciate that FFXIII had, hands down, the most fully developed characters and best party interaction out of the entire Final Fantasy series to date. :luigi:

[Slothy]

I think when you engage in discussions on forums, you become far too aware and lose some of your ability to experience a game as the player is intended to. We play the role of both historian and game designer; we contextualize video games even before we've finished them and make judgments on whether the developers made a good or bad decision with the game systems, even as we're encountering them. I'll admit that I have my grand ideas floating around my head sometimes while I play games. I'll admit that they were in my head when I played Final Fantasy VI and may have unfairly magnified some of its faults.

But that doesn't mean that I'm unable to put those ideas aside and just enjoy a game. A game doesn't have to have an original plot, it doesn't have to meaningfully iterate on previous combat systems, it doesn't have to redeem the nonsensical interview quotes by the developers, it doesn't have to put marks into a group of imaginary chekboxes in order for me to just sit back and enjoy a video game.

I've had a couple games not live up to the hype and expectations I set for them. But I was still able to enjoy the amazing dungeon design of FFVI. I was still able to appreciate how awesome the ride Chrono Trigger took me on was.

And I was able to appreciate that FFXIII had, hands down, the most fully developed characters and best party interaction out of the entire Final Fantasy series to date. :luigi:

No offense Bolivar, but this argument is complete smurfing horsetrout. A good game is a good game. It doesn't matter if I'm coming at it as a "player" (whatever the hell that even means), a game designer, a critic, or whatever other category you want to throw out. If a game is fun, it will be enjoyable on some level to all of these people. The idea that a game might not be enjoyable if you assess it critically, but will be if you stop thinking and just play is ludicrous to me. Why should I have to stop using my brain to enjoy anything? This is a silly argument and holds no water with me. If I've got to approach a game as some uninitiated player with no preconceptions about what a game is, should, or could be in order for it to be fun then it is a bad game. Either because it's actually a terrible game, or because it was made for a completely different kind of player. perhaps someone who doesn't bother to think critically about what they play, or doesn't play many games save for on their phone while on their lunch break.

But even if a game wasn't made for an audience of people like me, that does not invalidate any critique people such as myself or Wolf might have of it. And just because we find almost every aspect of a game unenjoyable doesn't mean we're blind to the things it gets right. I certainly consider FFXIII to be one of the least enjoyable games I have ever played, but I've never tried to cover up the fact that Sazh was a pretty well written and relatable character even if the rest of the cast were some of the worst characters I've seen in a game with constantly changing motivations, unbelievable reactions to the events of the game, and subject to making some monumentally stupid choices because the plot dictated that they needed to to move things where the writer wanted them to go. It's just too bad that Sazh (SPOILER)didn't blow his brains out because at least then Square might actually have surprised me for once.

[Bolivar]

A thread about IGN's top 100 RPGs isn't the place to debate this, but if you can't understand how expectations can affect a playing experience, then I don't think we'd have a fruitful discussion anyhow.

[Loony BoB]

WK: For what it's worth, reading through the posts you made in the chapter threads, I don't think it was only the battle system which kept you going or anything like that. It looks like you got fed up after chapter 9 or so, and there were certainly always some things that annoyed you, but there were a lot of things that you said with appreciation as well. And I don't mean 10% of a post, I mean closer to 50%. Maybe you just remember the bad things far more than the good things, but I don't think you played the game all that long while you were under the impression it was rubbish. It looks to me that you were undecided over whether it was rubbish until quite far in.

Bolivar: I played throgh FFII despite thinking it was crap. It was a proper chore, too. There were a few things that I liked in it, sure, but the general gameplay which was 90% of the game (if not more) was something I couldn't stand. So I can completely understand that WK would play that far into a game despite not enjoying himself, although I am of the impression he has painted a picture in his head retrospectively that is much worse than the picture he was painting when half way through the game.

EDIT: I can relate to Bolivar in that I don't feel the global plot of FFXIII was anything to shout about, but I enjoyed the game anyway because of things like the settings, the characters, the lore and an enjoyable battle system. And when I mention lore, I mean the thoughts behind the entire universe, not the plot. It was very interesting for me.

[Wolf Kanno]

WK: For what it's worth, reading through the posts you made in the chapter threads, I don't think it was only the battle system which kept you going or anything like that. It looks like you got fed up after chapter 9 or so, and there were certainly always some things that annoyed you, but there were a lot of things that you said with appreciation as well. And I don't mean 10% of a post, I mean closer to 50%. Maybe you just remember the bad things far more than the good things, but I don't think you played the game all that long while you were under the impression it was rubbish. It looks to me that you were undecided over whether it was rubbish until quite far in.

There were things I was happy they didn't go into, as I said, I went into the game with abysmal expectations, so I was expecting far worse from the get go so my happy thoughts are largely being proven wrong. I honestly felt the implosion of the plot at Chapter 9 really undermined everything and after I had more time to really digest the plot, I came to the conclusion that even some of the elements I felt were okay were actually pretty stupid in hindsight.

My main example being the whole story about Hope/Snow which only after I finished and started playing through P3 again, I realized it was a copy paste of the story of Shinji/Ken's story. In comparison, I feel the P3 version is just better on all accounts, Ken is more likable, more troubled, and I feel that he deals with the situation in a fairly realistic way which made it have more of an impact especially in how it ended. In contrast, Hope kind of spend the first several chapters waffling about what to do and his early interactions with Snow just seemed more awkward than strong character development. I kind of feel like the writer wasn't sure what angle to go with it and tried them all, which made it feel disjointed, it largely lost me when the story kept going out of its way to drive up the angst with all the coincidences and Snow acting a bit dumber than normal in Palumporom to just set the whole climatic scene up. A lot of it was unnecessary. What Hope really needed was an internal monologue so the player could see what he's thinking, I felt Lightning needed one too cause she's just a poor Squall imitation in my book.

Basically in reflecting back, I saw the game for what it was. Even the battle system which I felt was enjoyable, I still feel it's the weakest battle system in the series. It had its strengths but I feel the weaknesses do it in because there are so many of them.

EDIT: I can relate to Bolivar in that I don't feel the global plot of FFXIII was anything to shout about, but I enjoyed the game anyway because of things like the settings, the characters, the lore and an enjoyable battle system. And when I mention lore, I mean the thoughts behind the entire universe, not the plot. It was very interesting for me.

I think the lore was cool too but much like FFVIII and FFX, I felt the execution was pretty awful. I mentioned before that Agito/Type 0 uses a similar lore but from what I read of it, it sounds better than what XIII did with it.