Nibelheim Flashback

After you leave Midgar and head to the first town out Cloud will share the details of the Nibelheim mission where Sephiroth went nuts. What are your thoughts on the scene as a whole and which parts did you like more than others?

This is one of my favorite parts in the game. I enjoy seeing Sephiroth before he becomes the villain and the transformation after. I also enjoy exploring Nibelheim and being a little newbie. It's also the only time Sephiroth is in your party and you can see him fight. The scene never stops being fun for me. I used to have a save spot at that point so I could replay it any time I want.

Discuss.

I HATE THIS SCENE SO smurfING MUCH WORST PART OF THE GAME

I loved it the first time, but after playing through it over and over...

it drags on for me, I'm afraid. Nothing will ever match the first time I went through it.

I don't see the big deal or why people hate it. Most reasons boil down to "you know what is going to happen."

Okay.

Then shouldn't replaying the entire game bother you?

I hate it because it is incredibly restrictive exposition. Also because the first time I played it I was young and scared by the general feeling of the flashback. It's an interesting insight, and I can appreciate it, but it wholly detracts from that sense of freedom and open world exploration you're supposed to have just achieved.

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

So when I replay that part, I am brought back to my teens, remembering how I felt when I first played this game. I was a longtime Final Fantasy fan, which was rare in those days, and I was amazed at how far the series has come. Plus, say what you want about Sephiroth's character flaws or FFVII's flaws in general, but the FMV where he nonchalantly walks through the fire is still powerful.

Sure, it wasn't as amusing as the first time I played it, but that's the case with everything in entertainment.

It confused me a bit at first and I didn't particularly enjoy it or not enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by Sephex

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

So when I replay that part, I am brought back to my teens, remembering how I felt when I first played this game. I was a longtime Final Fantasy fan, which was rare in those days, and I was amazed at how far the series has come. Plus, say what you want about Sephiroth's character flaws or FFVII's flaws in general, but the FMV where he nonchalantly walks through the fire is still powerful.

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Agreed. That whole scene is iconic.

Another reason I like it is because I'm a fan of missions in general. Anything that has a clear objective from the get-go and a small group to achieve it, I like. It's why I enjoy playing the opening mission with AVALANCHE so much.

It's a pretty underated moment. I found it interesting when I first played it, and still enjoy doing it. I still kind of wish that Sephiroth wasn't AI, but I guess that's to put you more in Cloud's position - you just stand there mesmerized as Sephiroth handles everything. I don't see the problem with knowing what's going to happen.

It's obviously better the first time though, as is finding out what you fear may be the truth (in North Crater), and then the actual truth in Mideel. :)

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Originally Posted by Sephex

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

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I like that part too. Shame it's over in the first five minutes or so, and everything after it is nothing but linear exposition for an hour or two.

It was pretty ballsy at the time to have a lengthy flashback sequence to flesh out the villain. I'm reminded of how Call of Duty 4 did it some 10 years later. It was pretty dope sequence that certainly set FFVII a part. It also scared the crap out of my 9 year old self. I think going from a cyberpunk dystopia to a small town horror story really broadcast the range of the adventure you were just getting started on.

I liked the part where it ended.

I think it would have been a little nicer with a little more 'play', but all and all it works very well. Certainly far superior to watching 45 minutes of cut scenes.

I really didn't like it.

I remember the feeling I had when I first left Midgar, this was my first FF and I honestly thought Midgar was the world of this game. When I first hit the world map and realised the scale of what I was playing and how huge the world was it blew me away, it'll always be one of my favourite gaming moments.

Not 10 minutes later I was stuck on some very restrictive flashback that seemed to last forever. This is probably why I hated it then and while I still get bored playing through it now.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Sephex

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

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I like that part too. Shame it's over in the first five minutes or so, and everything after it is nothing but linear exposition for an hour or two.

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Again, then why replay the game at all? There are plenty parts of the game where there is linear exposition. If that's a problem then why replay ANY RPG from the late 90s on?

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Originally Posted by Sephex

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Sephex

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

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I like that part too. Shame it's over in the first five minutes or so, and everything after it is nothing but linear exposition for an hour or two.

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Again, then why replay the game at all? There are plenty parts of the game where there is linear exposition. If that's a problem then why replay ANY RPG from the late 90s on?

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Most games don't lock you on a path that is nothing but exposition for a couple of hours on end. I don't mind replaying games again and even experiencing stuff I've seen before. That's not the problem. The problem is that you do absolutely nothing as a player except sit and watch for hours. That's literally it. The most player agency you get is walking from one piece of exposition to the next. It's not experiencing the story in that segment that's the problem. It's that that's all you do for an incredibly long time with nothing to break it up. It's not so bad the first time when it's all new. It is when you want to actually PLAY the game again. It utterly kills the pacing for every subsequent playthrough, which leads me to believe the pacing wasn't that great to begin with, it's just more apparent when you play it again.

It's the same reason I won't ever go back and actually play Xenosaga again. If your exposition is so long that you give the player the option to save and take a break part way through then it's too long and you've failed as a game designer.

Okay, I hate that scene, but you're really exaggerating. It's like, an hour at most.

I've never actually timed it and it's been several years since I attempted to playthrough the game last, but I'm pretty sure it was more than an hour. And even an hour is too long. And if it is actually an hour at most then that means it felt a lot longer than that to me on subsequent playthroughs and that really just makes my criticism of it more damning, not less.

Hmm, you're right. I just checked an LP on Youtube and it's about 40 minutes minimum. But I'm not sure how anyone can defend forcing a player to sit through 40 minutes of story before they get to play the game again. It's a video game, not a TV show. If they'd interspersed the sequence with some actual gameplay it wouldn't even be a problem. But they didn't. There's nothing that happens during that whole segment that you as a player need to do. It really does just decide to stop being a game for 40+ minutes. I find that unacceptable.

EDIT/PS: I also really wasn't trying to just be a dick or exaggerate about the length of this sequence to make a point. I honestly remembered it being/feeling a lot longer than 40+ minutes. I'm legitimately surprised it isn't longer, even if I do think it's still too long.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Sephex

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Sephex

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

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I like that part too. Shame it's over in the first five minutes or so, and everything after it is nothing but linear exposition for an hour or two.

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Again, then why replay the game at all? There are plenty parts of the game where there is linear exposition. If that's a problem then why replay ANY RPG from the late 90s on?

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Most games don't lock you on a path that is nothing but exposition for a couple of hours on end. I don't mind replaying games again and even experiencing stuff I've seen before. That's not the problem. The problem is that you do absolutely nothing as a player except sit and watch for hours. That's literally it. The most player agency you get is walking from one piece of exposition to the next. It's not experiencing the story in that segment that's the problem. It's that that's all you do for an incredibly long time with nothing to break it up. It's not so bad the first time when it's all new. It is when you want to actually PLAY the game again. It utterly kills the pacing for every subsequent playthrough, which leads me to believe the pacing wasn't that great to begin with, it's just more apparent when you play it again.

It's the same reason I won't ever go back and actually play Xenosaga again. If your exposition is so long that you give the player the option to save and take a break part way through then it's too long and you've failed as a game designer.

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I could make the argument that all Final Fantasy games are just walking from one point to another, just to see more exposition. The fact that you can run around and get in a battle with the same set of enemies per area adds to variety, but that's just another form of linearity to me. This fact doesn't bother me, and while I agree the flashback is more restrictive, I only view it as a minor inconvenience. It's not something to dread, nor is the sequence even that long.

My thing is that there are tons of long exposition sequences in this game where you are simply clicking through dialogue boxes with no or little player movement, so why does this particular part get so much flack? I don't mind this sequence either, but why don't I hear the same complaints about the part where Tifa and Cloud explore his subconscious? Or before that when Sephiroth mind screws Cloud. Again, no problem for me, but when you have to move your character a little more instead of clicking through dialogue boxes, THEN it's a problem?

I guess the only part I do agree with is having a long scene after obtaining the freedom of the world map.

I just hate it because I think it's incredibly boring.

I actually get the argument about exposition. It just never bothered me because I played games like Metal Gear Solid which paved the way for saving in-between cutscenes :shifty:

So, yeah, I get why that would be a nuisance.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Sephex

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

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I like that part too. Shame it's over in the first five minutes or so, and everything after it is nothing but linear exposition for an hour or two.

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Yeah, I do agree. They tried some really smurfing cool things, which made Final Fantasy VII an even riskier project, but I just feel like it failed to hit the mark. The promise of open world exploration is immediately snatched away from you and you're immediately put into a linear flashback with a bunch of the options you've come to experience -- materia, etc -- locked off from you. It's a limiting approach. An excellent experiment, but placed and paced wrong, I think.

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Originally Posted by Jiro

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

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Originally Posted by Sephex

The reason I like it to this day for the simple fact that it uses one of my favorite methods of getting a point across in video games: Using the actual gameplay to showcase a story point. The game builds up Sephiroth to be a bad ass super solider, and watching the amount of damage he dished out and capabilities the character had drove that point home. If he was capable of such feats five years ago as a "good" guy, imagine what he can do now!

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I like that part too. Shame it's over in the first five minutes or so, and everything after it is nothing but linear exposition for an hour or two.

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Yeah, I do agree. They tried some really smurfing cool things, which made Final Fantasy VII an even riskier project, but I just feel like it failed to hit the mark. The promise of open world exploration is immediately snatched away from you and you're immediately put into a linear flashback with a bunch of the options you've come to experience -- materia, etc -- locked off from you. It's a limiting approach. An excellent experiment, but placed and paced wrong, I think.

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I don't think it is more or less linear than the rest of the game, or any Final Fantasy for the most part. Every "section" the player goes to can be defined as somewhat linear, in a way. For example, once you get to Cosmo Canyon, you can't go anywhere else once your buggy breaks down. Sure, you can not drive it to the point where it breaks down and go "backwards", but chances are, the player has done everything he/she can up to that point.

So, using the same logic, I can say the Cosmo Canyon part sucks because the freedom of the world map is taken away, and you can't go anywhere or do anything until you mash the X button through exposition by walking from point to point.

Of course, I don't have that dim of a view concerning any part of the game, but I just can't accept the "it's too linear" argument without thinking, "Then why does the rest of the game get a pass?" Every time the player advances the game, the player is essentially "trapped" in a certain area. Sounds pretty linear to me. The difference between the flashback and the "present time" is that you can go meander and lever grind or something, which doesn't offer much more freedom.

Plus, in the flashback you can go participate in minor events like rummaging though Tifa's house, or see Cloud's awkward reunion with his mother. You can also have the option to talk down to certain people, or be the friendly homecoming SOLDIER. Not too many options you say? Sounds like the rest of the game to me, minus side quests.

As far as the pacing side of this topic goes, yeah, I agree it's pretty funky to have the flashback happen right after the world map is offered to the player, but as I said earlier in this thread, there are plenty of long sequences where the player is reading a lot of dialogue and simply more of a viewer than a player. I think this sequence would have been way more out of place if it was later in the game. Maybe it could have been done earlier in the game, but such minor lengthy flashback (it seriously not that long once you have played the game once already) would have felt even more weird then.

You know what? Scrap the whole game. It sucks.

Agreed. Final Fantasy VII sucks. Let's get rid of it. :aimsun:

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Originally Posted by Jiro

Agreed. Final Fantasy VII sucks. Let's get rid of it. :aimsun:

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More like Final Fantasy DREADven. Because you dread playing it. Yeah. Suck on that.

I have Stockholm syndrome, guys.

HALP!

I think Cosmo Canyon was a fail in terms of player preference. If they wanted to ensure you visited Cosmo Canyon, they could have had you encounter a mini-boss. After defeating it, a cutscene would show you heading into CC to "recover" and be introduced to Bugen and get Nanaki's real name and after the first three minutes of exposition, you could then CHOOSE whether you wanted to go on Nanaki's vision quest with him. Choosing no would mean not having Nanaki in your party, maybe temporarily, maybe permanently, who gives a rat's ass? Using that lame excuse of the Buggy breaking down just because you passed CC so now you can't even trek backward sucked balls, truly.

Then again, I also didn't like using the plane as a boat. The damned thing didn't even have pontoons. It shouldn't be floating. If they didn't want you to explore outside the core continent area, they could have erected *giggity* a wind barrier, said that only the Highwind could penetrate it *giggity*.

When people start questioning things in a game with fantasy in the title, you really have to stop and try not to argue with them, because it is the way it is and there is nothing they can do that will change that.

The Kalm flashback was brilliant. It is bound to get a little tiresome if you've played the game 800 times like I have so I don't particularly look forward to it. I still don't really mind playing through it though as there are some really great scenes... and yes, it still gives me shivers when I hear that Sephiroth theme.

There could maybe be an option where you don't have to go through it. Similar to Barret asking you to explain materia to him in Tifa's Heaven... or them all asking Cloud to recap things when they're in the Gold Saucer Hotel. But, it's such an important scene I don't think you should be able to skip it.

I love Cosmo Canyon, but personally I hate being stuck there. Still it feels like you have more freedom than the flashback.

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Originally Posted by Vivi22

Hmm, you're right. I just checked an LP on Youtube and it's about 40 minutes minimum.

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I just got through this in 20 minutes, just adjust the text speed to maximum and spam the O button to get through the text.

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Originally Posted by Jinx

I HATE THIS SCENE SO smurfING MUCH WORST PART OF THE GAME

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Yeah pretty much this


It was thrilling and mysterious the first time around, but third-fourth time round, it's like- we know, where is the skip button ???


When re-playing I usually try and do the Shrina BLDG escape and Cloud's past all at once to get it out of the way.

I still don't get what the problem with knowing what's going to happen/knowing that it's semi-false memories. It seems like a silly reason to hate something to me. I get that that it doesn't have the same impact as the first time, but ultimately it must be the overall enjoyment of the segment that should determine whether or not you care this time around, right?

Basically, if you (the people who hate it) find it boring or badly written or whatever, I understand that as an opinion, but not "I know the answer".

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

When people start questioning things in a game with fantasy in the title, you really have to stop and try not to argue with them, because it is the way it is and there is nothing they can do that will change that.

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There's a difference between fantasy and idiocy. Floating a plane which has no pontoons crosses that line.

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

When people start questioning things in a game with fantasy in the title, you really have to stop and try not to argue with them, because it is the way it is and there is nothing they can do that will change that.

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There's a difference between fantasy and idiocy. Floating a plane which has no pontoons crosses that line.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

When people start questioning things in a game with fantasy in the title, you really have to stop and try not to argue with them, because it is the way it is and there is nothing they can do that will change that.

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It's dumb to question the 'realism' (like, no, the Buster Sword would break Cloud's wrists. Tifa wouldn't punch everything. Etc) because yeah, fantasy game. But you're still allowed to question the story/game mechanics. I think sometimes people use the "IT'S A FANTASY" excuse too much.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

There's a difference between fantasy and idiocy. Floating a plane which has no pontoons crosses that line.

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Originally Posted by Carl the Llama

When people start questioning things in a game with fantasy in the title, you really have to stop and try not to argue with them, because it is the way it is and there is nothing they can do that will change that.

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Je m'appelle Marshall.

There are some things we suspend disbelief for. There are other things that seem pointlessly unrealistic. Cloud can hold the Buster Sword because he is genetically modified to be stronger thanks to JENOVA cells and Mako showers. The Tiny Bronco can float around without pontoons (I guess; I know nothing about planes or buoyancy).

If the writers are worth their salt, then every unrealistic element is built into the world's lore. The excuse "it's a fantasy game" should rarely be needed and it feels like people are too lazy to critically analyse something or they're trying hard to defend the game. The Tiny Bronco floating certainly doesn't ruin the game, and neither does the Nibelheim flashback.

I think "It's a fantasy" does work sometimes. Like zombie tree in IX. How does that work? Fantasy, that's how. it never really bothers me when that excuse is used.

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Originally Posted by shion

I think "It's a fantasy" does work sometimes. Like zombie tree in IX. How does that work? Fantasy, that's how. it never really bothers me when that excuse is used.

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Yeah, but with this example, it still follows what Jiro's saying. Sure, it's fantasy and makes no sense. But there's a lore behind it to make it 'make sense' even thought it doesn't really make sense....

Fantastical elements must still make sense in the game universe. The Iifa tree existing is strange, but it exists to ferry the souls between Terra and Gaia, and it creates mist as a byproduct of this. Zombie tree makes no sense in our world, but in Final Fantasy IX, it has justification and purpose. It's not there simply because Sakaguchi wanted the party to fight an undead boss.

Yeah, I get that. I probably just don't mind the "its fantasy" thing because most stuff does have a reason to it, I find. It's rare I see something that's just there because oh well why not.

Creating a fantasy tale without having fantasy elements would be rather impossible, after all :ffviwag: If you can't find a real world explanation and you can't find an in-universe explanation for something, then its existence begins to become questionable and you start looking for justification like "Rule of Cool" and stuff.

Jiro and Jinx already beat me to what I would have said. "It's fantasy" sounds too much like a convenient cop out so writers don't have to explain the things that doesn't even make sense in their own fantasy world.

The whole Nibelheim Flashback is one of the best moments in FFVII.

I honestly can't believe so many people dislike it.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

The whole Nibelheim Flashback is one of the best moments in FFVII.

I honestly can't believe so many people dislike it.

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http://i.imgur.com/4AJVh2U.gif

http://youtu.be/DiM2BkmZyiQ?t=2m21s


Sephiroth walking towards the camera...

The old, vaguely ominous music fading out...

Him sanding before the camera and saying that final line...

Cue "Those Chosen By The Planet" and its creepy-ass chorus starting.

That! That is called brilliant cinematic direction. FFVII is full of it. It's stuff like that, and the introduction to the Safer Sephiroth fight, that really make VII stand out. (the way the screen just goes black and you hear the Planet screaming and then the music starts and revs up while the screen is still black. Safer Sephiroth only reveals himself when the music hits the best possible note for his introduction)

That particular scene was awesome and I liked the backstory sequence the first time but about 90% of the flashback sequence I just want to plow through as soon as I can so I can get on with the game

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Final Fantasy VII Playthrough (56) Cloud's Past #7 - YouTube


Sephiroth walking towards the camera...

The old, vaguely ominous music fading out...

Him sanding before the camera and saying that final line...

Cue "Those Chosen By The Planet" and its creepy-ass chorus starting.

That! That is called brilliant cinematic direction. FFVII is full of it. It's stuff like that, and the introduction to the Safer Sephiroth fight, that really make VII stand out. (the way the screen just goes black and you hear the Planet screaming and then the music starts and revs up while the screen is still black. Safer Sephiroth only reveals himself when the music hits the best possible note for his introduction)

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You are so right about that, FFVII was brilliant at that kind of thing now that I think of it.