Final Fantasy Sexism Part I: Why It Matters

[Formalhaut]

Sweet, when does Type-0 come out?

I wish all games allowed for characters to change clothes, to be honest. Or at least gave them different designs dependent upon the environment they're in. I don't care about the sexual equality of it, mind, I just think it'd be cool to have the characters reflecting the areas of the game.

Oh you cannot tell how much maybee hit the nail on the head. There's so many cold areas in the games, and literally hardly anyone in game are capable of "surviving" in those conditions. VII even touched upon it when you had to climb that cliff or something and you had to regulate Cloud's temperature by shaking. All of that could have been avoided if he just put some bloody clothes on! Now, I know SE likes keeping the character designs but I'm sure the fanbase would actually approve of clothes changes when the situation is appropriate.

What I jokingly do is when I enter a cold area in a game, I only choose characters that can survive. In XII in the Paramina Rift, I only used Balthier and Penelo. And even then they were both stretching it. In X during Mt Gagazet, I only allowed myself Lulu, Auron and Kimahri. Everyone else is too Besaid fashion, and forget about Rikku. I like imposing these fun little challenges because it makes the game at least somewhat realistic. If only SE could do the same.

I admit this has strayed slightly from Sexism to Winter Fashion

[Quindiana Jones]

Imagine being able to make Vaan put on a jumper. That would improve XII so much.

[Formalhaut]

Imagine being able to make Vaan put on a jumper. That would improve XII so much.

You mean those HIDEOUS Abdominals. What grave error did XII developers do?

[maybee]

One of the issues with the Damsel in Distress trope isn't that it's only confined to the obvious stuff where your Player Character's helpless girlfriend has been kidnapped by Satan and will be gratuitously raped every time you have to restart a level. Yes, those games represent a problem.

Huuuuh ? What game is this ? Huh ?

Ghosts n Goblins the R 18 version ?

i don't get this part of the article.... no game is like this.

Like Aeris, she faces the threat of rape at Don's Mansion

This scene is optional and what about Cloud ? Cloud can be picked by the Don as well.

So while Cloud is a male character threatened with rape, he is only threatened with rape when he pretends to be a female character. Which makes the incident difficult to classify.

He's still threatened with rape. Cross-dressing or not. The man had " Ants in his pants and he was looking for some romance ".

Shera then submitted to an abusive relationship with Cid out of guilt for "ruining" his dreams.
Breakdown: Victim of an Abusive Relationship (with a Playable Character!).

Okay. There is a huge difference between holding a grudge and a abusive relationship. Cid never hit, smacked or slapped or even mentally abused her. He was just really frustrated with her; and judging how he gave up his own dreams to save her life, I doubt that he ever would harm Shera.

I do have to admit that their relationship does make me feel uncomfortable though.

[NeoCracker]

...You know, I'm rather confident Raistlin here can write a better article then that.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

As a scientist- can people stop using gender like it means sex?

You have to define something before you argue about it,if you are using words but defining them differently than you'll be debating past each other. If someone says "I am using WORD-A to mean X." Then you saying, but it really means Y is useless, it doesn't address whatever point they were making.

For instance earlier in the thread someone defined bullying sort of narrowly (to exclude death threats etc). And instead of address the point, someone else quoted the "true" definition of bullying. All that does is require the first person to go back and use a different word.

I think "sexism" needs to be operationally defined (and agreed upon) before you can debate about it.

[Del Murder]

Arguments of semantics usually bring things to a screeching halt, though. Can't spend all day defining every term you use because then you end up in the 'depends on what your definition of "is" is' situation.

[chionos]

Arguments of semantics usually bring things to a screeching halt, though. Can't spend all day defining every term you use because then you end up in the 'depends on what your definition of "is" is' situation.

Even though I'm a wordophile, and agree in principle with what rydrum is saying, I have to agree with the gangsta here. In large part because a word's denotation is only the start of what a word really means, and the larger part of the meaning is often very relative. Thus, operationally defining something to the agreement of both sides of an argument is impossible. At least in contexts like this one.

In fact, a large portion of what Raist is doing here (or will be doing) [is] defining sexism (its connotation), by discussing it in a particular context. Our operational definitions develop through conversations and arguments that we have, not by fruitlessly arguing definitions before we even begin.


It's roots deep.

[Dr. rydrum2112]

Arguments of semantics usually bring things to a screeching halt, though. Can't spend all day defining every term you use because then you end up in the 'depends on what your definition of "is" is' situation.

Even though I'm a wordophile, and agree in principle with what rydrum is saying, I have to agree with the gangsta here. In large part because a word's denotation is only the start of what a word really means, and the larger part of the meaning is often very relative. Thus, operationally defining something to the agreement of both sides of an argument is impossible. At least in contexts like this one.

In fact, a large portion of what Raist is doing here (or will be doing) [is] defining sexism (its connotation), by discussing it in a particular context. Our operational definitions develop through conversations and arguments that we have, not by fruitlessly arguing definitions before we even begin.

You and Del missed the point of what I was saying. You have to accept how other people are using it/operationally defining it. This is what is mean by "agreeing".

You don't have to truly decide on its absolute definition. If one person says- sexism as defined by ____ is not present in game A. Then arguing how that is the wrong definition of sexism is different then arguing if it exists in the game.

Every time you make a claim about something, you have to provide evidence to support it- and in order to do so you have to operationally define what it is. That isn't decided as you go along, through conversations. Read any quality peer reviewed journal article. What the authors do is define exactly what they mean. This idea that both sides have to definitively agree was not made by me.

[Del Murder]

So did you not like the article then?

[Dr. rydrum2112]

So did you not like the article then?

No, I think Raistlin had the right idea:

I want to highlight two other types of sexism to you that are readily apparent in video games, and the Final Fantasy series in particular: the overwhelming use of stereotypical gender roles for female characters, and the common dependence that female characters have on more central, male characters to their relevance in the game.

It sounds like he is going to highlight and "define" sexism as typical gender roles & male dependence.

[Raistlin]

I'm generally a big definitions guy, and think that many disagreements on some controversial issues are fairly useless without defining the terms -- especially those that provoke an emotional reaction and have a heavily negative connotation. But I did not really want to wade into a debate about the definition of "sexism," so instead focused on certain applications of that term that I felt would be widely accepted -- that not only treat women differently, but place women as subservient to men, or at least drastically limit the variation of personalities and roles as compared to men. Even if you limit the definition of "sexism" to only include that which discriminates against one sex, then everything in my article should fit. In hindsight, perhaps that's something I should have mentioned in the intro.

[Gu-fu-fu]

As a newb I was pretty scared to read this thread, cause yeah, I be feminist, I went to school for Gender Studies, what? I am also a woman who loves gaming. So yeah, this is super interesting to me.

So far, so good I think. I am excited for the articles, and discussion. My only comment is that by my understanding the Bechdel Test is for determining sexism in an industry mainly, not a movie or game. It shows whether the game can even remotely be considered women centered, and points out how women's stories are not told as often as men's typically are. A game or movie can fail the Bechdel Test and still not be sexist in my opinion.

Anyway, I gotta say, I am a big Anita Sarkeesian fan. And she has been doing her pop culture critiques for a while now, so I am fairly sure that she will keep making videos. And yeah, how dare she talk about how guys harassed and threatened her, women are supposed to keep their mouths shut, right?

If this all makes you hate me now, I will be sad.

[Freya]

I don't hate the woman, I just don't like how she went about it is all.

[Raistlin]

A game or movie can fail the Bechdel Test and still not be sexist in my opinion.

I agree with this. It's one factor to consider among others, and as you said is most useful in looking at trends across an entire industry. I only mentioned it as it is somewhat related to a broader application of sexism that I introduced and will be using to analyze the Final Fantasy series: the frequent dependence of female characters on male characters for relevance.