So I just finished and I am a little confused... (WHOLE THREAD IS SPOILER)

[Wolf Kanno]

Once again, Neo-Mark beat me too it...

I agree that convential writing rules do not completely apply to video games. Nor do they really apply to comic books, movies, and TV shows since they are all very different forms of media so certain rules don't necessarily apply. Specifically points 2 and 3 don't apply to RPGs if you really look back on it's history.

Seriously, I had fights with my teacher in creative writing class cause I was outling a script for a comic but she badgered me constantly about how it doesn't follow conventional rules. Cause conventional rules dictate you cannot have a personal narrative and an objective narrative at the same time whereas a comic book allows the freedom to do so. In fact it happens more often than people think and yet it never causes any confusions (mostly due to the advent of the pictures...)

It's the perfect Wisconsin EVERYTHING. The script writers captured the angst and pain undercurrents in such a nice calm place and situation - an adorable husband /wife & kid family in Smallville USA - and showed it very convincingly, nothing feels fake about it. It is a ghastly, gruesome crime, the kind you would expect on NY or LA, not in Podunk, IA. And do you want a less likely "hero" than a fat 9 months pregnant sheriff ? Yet she and the movie comes out perfectly believable. Takes A LOT of writing and acting skills to pull that off!

Both of which the writers and actors lacked. It was a terrible movie Renmiri . "Search your feelings... you know it to be true!"

Writing rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..

The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" i... Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argument ?

Vaan actually says he has no reason twice: "I don't want to just be left behind here" in Bhujerba and later to Balthier's question of "what do you want" he answers "you know..."

I do admire your talent for filling in the blanks for the script writers though

Both comments don't say anything along the lines of "I don't know". The first can be easily used within the context of my reasoning as yours The second comment seems really out of context so I cannot in good faith make a comment on it.

2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)

Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) ..

Precisely. All those extras had roles that were rather small (Havahro is the Bhujerba resistance leader that meets Vaan). Rikken, Elsa and Raz (the 3 Reddas groupies), Tomaj.... The "rules" say that if you introduce a character you should take time to put him on the story, otherwise you are just disrupting the flow of the narrative and confusing the reader.

On Fargo, they managed to pull it off, introducing a random Japanese friend of the sheriff woman, because they made it a tale about loneliness in big cities. I mean, hitting on an older pregnant woman ? How desperate is that ? It all fit the plot and theme about how big cities and small cities have similar woes deep down, even though it was a random character that was never heard off again. His appearance was the exact "size" to convey that message and exit stage left. Had he shown up again it would just disrupt the story.

On XII we are left wanting more of the characters. The inner struggle within the Empire deserved more than 1 minute cut scene, and so did Reddas friends, the resistance, etc...

I agree that I wanted more but I feel the scenes told you what you really needed to know. Honestly, my commnets on Migelo and Drace easily coincide with your Japanese guy on Fargo. They appeared as a commentary of the state of affairs in both their situations and both were used perfectly in their symbolism.

Havharroh and some of the others you recently mentioned are part of RPG writing conventions. Reddas' cronies are just really there for amusement, Tomaj on the other hand gets a few minor story bits as you move up throught the clan ranks and go through the various hunts.

3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)

I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...

Do you want a less likely "hero" than Fargo's fat 9 months pregnant older woman ? Yet it works. when you watch the movie you truly believe she is the one investigating the crime and catching the perps

Vaan OTOH is a dream filled younger brother that could turn out to be a hero easily, yet never quite "works". No one leaves the game with the impression he is the leader of anything, that he was the driving force behind the quests, etc...

Again, the "rules" are to make sure your protagonist is believable as hero or villain, not to make a sidekick your protagonist. Takes a lot of skill to pull it off a believable sidekick protagonist.

IMHO the writers on X did that well. Tidus is a sidekick to Auron and Yuna yet you follow his exploits. You truly believe he is the main character. The narration trick helped a lot but the entire script was very well written in this aspect.

Vaan's far from a "main antagonsit and it's been stated several times he's not the main character so this is a mute point entirely. His role ends about a third of the way in the game, just like Lulu's ende five minutes after her introduction

Back on topic... honestly, I think it's obvious to see that Ashe is really the main character of the story. The plot is interwoven between her struggle to choose between smiting her enemies with the wrath of god or using it as a bargaining tool to restore her kingdom. The conflict between personal feelings and duty.

It's not often a main character gets introduced last to your party but then again we are talking about a genre of storytelling that features full fleshed characters that never utter a word in their own respective stories... (Crono and Ryu from Chrono Trigger and Breath of Fire respectively)

Several plot twists that "redraw" the story

This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFX

True, but some do it better than others

With this I agree with you though I know we are thinking of completely different things...

5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid), Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....

Bergan is your atypical typical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.

Well, again, the golden rules tell writers to use few or no clichees. And again, some good writers can use 100 clichees and make a masterpiece, while most of us can't manage that. I personally feel XII writers used way too many clichees and it made the story less readable / viewable because of it. The "not so-evil" twin was a good twist but when they added to the rest made it too much IMHO. Felt like eating stale leftovers from way too many stories

On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.

I just love how you can fill in the blanks. You should rewrite XII's script someday

I feel you are judging this game too harshly as amny of the cliche's you've mentioned are nowhere near as bad as you make them out to be. Scanning the data that is presented to you it's easy to see how the characters are the way they are (and it's not due to them being cliches:rolleyes2 ) My note on Bergan is a prime example since I based it soley on what I've seen in the game.

Cid, though in the "mad scientist" category is definetly no where near as bat crazy like Hojo was. Rather he's just obsesed with his research and finding the truth. But honestly, if you were in his position and a god came to you to tell you the secrets of the universe, don't you think you would probably place everything else in your life on the back burner?

Vayne only becomes cliche material at the end of the game which is disappointing but nonetheless his acts throughout the rest of the game is far from Saturday morning fare...

]7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)

Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday

Last time I checked we had no Aeons here The attack on Mt. Bur-Omisace's refugee camp was completely unnecessary to the plot, as were the "mommy, talk to me mommy" heartbreaking NPC dialogs there. It spoiled my enjoyment of that portion of the game, particularly because it is never addressed at the end. Ashe and Larsa never sent relief supplies or anything. Another plot string left untied, raised for the sheer heck of it then abandoned

X had a much darker, bloodier plot. Continuous genocide for 1,000 years ? A land of widows and orphans ? Yet we get to DO something against it and the entire sunny cheery landscape distracts you from the horrible reality the world of Spira faces. On XII the genocide seems like an after thought that no one, not even you, should care about.

You've obviously never finished the Fafnir hunt as it gives closure to that plot thread . Also it was relevant to the plot since the empire did not want the Grand Kiltias to publicly recognize Ashe as the heir to Dalmasca.

Besides, it was obvious from the amount of refugee's forming there that the Kiltias may have to be forced to act on the current state of world affairs and the Empire couldn't have that. Tactically, it was a pretty sound plan.

Also the state of affairs in X always pissed me off. I don't necessarily like authority and the vast majority of the land mass giving into the Yevon faith (I'm a firm believer in "God helps those who help themselves") made me eventually wish Sin would wipe them out. I hate mindless "sheep" more than anything and ultimately, I never felt Spira deserved to be saved. Of all the FF wolrds, X deserved what it got the most...

8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)

Once again, welcome to the real world... Despite what most people think, the world is not "black or white" but just shades of gray...

Ambiguous morals are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling

You are correct. But writing a story with ambiguous morals is harder to get it to work. I feel the XII script writers fell short on it. They presented blacks and whites and left up to you to make it "gray". A better writer would have made a masterpiece with all the nuances of the plot arch. The Occuria being jerks and Cid/ Vayne's alleged quest to free humanity from them was a very creative idea and it was very poorly explored IMHO.

So was the sibling relationship of Vayne and Larsa. Or Gramis change of heart with old age... So many plot openings left untied / unexplored.

IMHO they cut the XII script development in half at SE. You can clearly see many ideas added for later fleshing out that were never finished.

Though we'll never truly know how the script was done for XII, I feel the grey area is obvious in the amount of realism the story is steeped in. The choices that Ashe had to make, Balthiers conflict between forgetting his past or finding closure. Baschs duty, and even the situation with the war between the resistance and the empire. The grey is there you have to look for it. When dealing with morality, a writer cannot simply state what is right and wrong and what is ultimately the grey area... since morality is purely subjective.

My commnets on X's world and it's "waltz of death" with Sin should clearly show that some people have a different views on what is right and what is wrong. In my moral conscience, helping Spira is pointless since the people lack the basic requirements to deserve peace and freedom.

Never have I ever felt that the love story was the defining feature in the FF series. In fact the best ones are the suttle ones like VI/VII's love stories. Though XII did have the potential for several love stories, I for one, am grateful it was not readily present. The series needs to mix it up abit from time to time.

Yeah your right. I never saw the love story as a defining feature but still it was a shame to see all the potential for one existing in the FFXII go to waste.

Well there's always "Revnant Wings". It looks like it may focus on Vaan and Penelo's relationship since the original game gave you the impression they were the only real couple in the game. Though deep down, I still feel that Lady Ashe has a thing for Balthier