First off: Fargo is a horrible movie...Originally Posted by Renmiri
The plot of XII is not bad at all. The execution is what was lacking, i.e. how the plot was communicated to players. They violated a lot of good writing maxims on the way they did it. Good writers can do that and still come up with a killer story, i.e, Fargo by the brother's Cohen, which violated pretty much every golden rule Syd Field and others "in the know" set for script writing. Alas, the game script writers were no brothers Cohen so the story flailed in spite of a good creative plot
BTW: Writing rules violated on Fargo
1) We are never told why the husband needs the kidnapping done
2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (the japanese guy)
3) A protagonist is pregnant yet is the main "action" character
4) Several plot twists that "redraw" the story
5) Clichee:Mean cartoonish villain (blond guy)
6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (small guy)
7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (wood chipper scene)
8) Ambiguous morals (Father in law is a jerk, husband is a bad guy but sympathetic)
...
Second: The Oscars are the last thing anyone should ever use to act as a judgement system to determine what's "good" in the movie industry.
The opening of the game is all about how Vaan is trying to "help Dalmasca" in fact he only gets mixed up in all this nonsense cause of his lame brain scheme to steal from the royal treasury before the Archadians get to it. His motive is later made even clearer in his conversations to Basch when they return to Rabanastre and Vaan talks about the war orphans and the mistreatment the people have suffered under Imperial rule. Did you want him to come out say specifically why so you can add it to your "telegraphing the plot" argumentWriting rules violated on XII
1) We are never told why Vaan tags along with Ashe, why Basch fiercely protects Dalmasca, what resistance leaqder is Ashe that doesn't even know her uncle is on her side, etc..?
Basch is trying to protect his new home. He has seen first hand what happens to kingdoms overtakened by the empire and hopes to succeed where he has failed before. Interestingly enough, his conversation with Gabranth at the end where Gabranth curses him for abandoning their homeland gives an inclination that perhaps Basch is also trying to redeem himself for what happened in his past. This is pure specualtion but it's logically sound.
As for Ashe, the game gives the impression that only Vossler knew the the truth. Basch didn't find out until after he met up with the resistance in Rabanastre and spoke with Vossler directly. The Marquis was most likely trying to do his best to keep his involvement a secret in hopes that he can get more intel on the Empire, thus he told no one. Most of the resistance was against Ashe being involved in the actual fighting since the Marquis did so much to fake her death and allow her to go underground. I don't think anyone plaaned on her getting personally involved in the war for the kingdom's independance but Lady Ashe is definetly a "hands on" kind of woman.
Migelo is a traditional "parent" in a JRPG. Their role basically ends once the "children" prove they can stand on their own feet and leave the "nest". But he does still have a few minor roles based on Mark Hunts... But honestly, Migelo is mostly a character used to show the player how Dalmasca has survived under political rule. He's a prominent figure who basically pays off the imperial dignitaries and soldiers to "look the other way". It's a quality that Vaan hates and is used to fuel his hatred for the empire.2) A complete stranger to the plot is introduced and never mentioned again (Havharro, Miguelo, Drace...)
Drace (though I regret her role was rather small) is also a symbolic figure to show not only the opposition within the empire for Vayne but also to serve as an "example" of those who oppose Vayne. She's a different political force in the empire which gets stamped out by Vayne to prove his authority is absolute. I also feel her death was created to show the conflict that Gabranth has within him. It showed a more "human side" to him. He opposes Vayne but follows orders in order to keep his promise to the late emperor. It showed his loyalty and determination.
You have me with Havharro though, as I cannot even remember who this character is.
I don't necessarily understand what you mean hear I'm afraid...3) A protagonist is not the leader yet is the main "action" character (Vaan)
Vaan is the first character we are "properly" introduced to, as well as being the character most likely to identify with the target audiance for the series (12-18 year olds). Also this happens in plenty of other stories (BoF IV is a perfect example) but honestly we are seeing the story slightly through his eyes since we started with him, but also as I've stated before that Vaan's growth in the story comes from him being an observer. He's hardly an "action" character as his role is mostly relegated to him observing the adults.
This applies to every JRPG on the market, including FFXSeveral plot twists that "redraw" the story
Vayne's pretty damn manipulative so he's not exactly cartoonish... but most of this thread is about how Vayne and Cid are in the story and I feel there are quite a few convincing arguments on the contrary.5) Clichee: Mean cartoonish villain (Vayne), Mad scientist (Dr. Cid)
Bergan is your atypical fanatical supporter. He believes strongly in Vayne"s methods and ideals and saw the former Emperor as "weak" this is all explained in the Judge meeting where Drace is murdered.6) Clichee: Dumb sidekick (Bergan), Evil twin (Gabi)....
On a pure specualtive note: Since Bergan is one of the older Judges, it stands to reason he came from a different era than some of the others. He most likely held this position in the days Vayne killed his brothers and the wars that took Noah and Basch's homeland. He's a hardliner like General McDouglas who lacks the judgement to know when to deal with a situation diplomatically.
As for the Evil twin thing... Gabranth is far from an evil character and despite what most people think. Twins are used in mature storytelling very often MGS, DMC, and The Man behind the Iron Mask are the very few I can think of. It's mostly used in Scooby Doo cartoonsEVIL!!!!
I feel the games lack of focus on this matter removes it from the standard cliche department.
Welcome to the real world... People fight for ideals, homelands, and to protect what's important to them. Our history is a testament to this. It's not "bad writing" when all one has to do is open a history book or even a newspaper and see that it's something that happens everyday.7) Unnecessary, meaningless blood spilling (Resistance ships, almost Rabanastre)
Once again, welcome to the real world...8) Ambiguous morals (Occuria are jerks, Dr. Cid is a bad guy but his plight is sympathetic)
"There is no right or wrong in war, just people with different views"
Ambiguous morlas are not really a story writing no-no, in fact most times it leads to stronger storytelling cause it's up to those expereincing the story to come to their own conclusions.
In the case of the last two, I feel FFXII's story represents the defining aspect of what art is... Art is a reflection of society and culture.
Just like old times...
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