Griever

[Serapy]

Stop it Seraphy, you're reading way too far inbetween the lines. It's getting FE like now and that scares me, it cannot be good for yours or anyone elses health lol. Rinoa fancies Squall but doesn't want to admit that she needs someone (fiercely independent rebel chick as she is) the discussion about the ring originally takes place I believe in the past and occurs as flashback in to the game at a later point. As the game progresses she generally comes to realize that relying on Squall wouldn't be a sign of weakness since in his own way he relies on his friends and her too. An example of his reliance on them is in the Garden to Garden battle with the Gabaldians, when Zell can't save Rinoa, Squall relies on him and Quistis to lead a successful assault on the enemy base. After the prison escape, Squall relies on Selphie to get to the missile base and destroy the missiles aimed at balamb, the fact he has backup plans is just because he's an elite mercenary he'd be thorough. Add their ages to this, they're barely adults. Think how every other teenager acts about liking someone. "He's so funny and I wish I could be half as funny as him...no it's not like that! stop it! stop thinking like that! I do not fancy him" <--- typical if slightly exaggerated girlie convo between teenagers I know, I witnessed enough of these in college. The convo between Rinoa and Zell is exactly one of these it's where Zell first realizes she REALLY fancies Squall but Rinoa being embarassed for some reason denies it.

True. It's just that it's complicated when it comes to the Griever thing, why can't it be something else.

[champagne supernova]

Because Griever was one of the major elements in the story. And if Ultimecia summons Griever, you (as the player) are going to think, "Oh my gosh, she just summoned Griever."

If she summoned Norton (who hears a Who), or Robert, or Humbert, or Delilah or Nofundo, there just wouldn't be that shock. It would just be some massively random GF!

[Serapy]

The point is that Rinoa is involved, which makes it complicated.

[champagne supernova]

The point is that Rinoa is involved, which makes it complicated.

How is Rinoa involved? Besides the fact that she she sees a cool ring on someone she has a crush on, and then asks for a copy to be made.

Really, this is getting far too much. There is no way to determine whether Ultimecia found the GF Griever, or whether she pulled it out of Squall's mind. I believe the former is more likely, seeing that Squall does not necessarily fight Ultimecia at the end, which complicates matters, but there is no proof one way or another. But to try manipulate Griever's role in the game to prove R=U is ridiculous.

[Serapy]

The point is that Rinoa is involved, which makes it complicated.

How is Rinoa involved? Besides the fact that she she sees a cool ring on someone she has a crush on, and then asks for a copy to be made.

Compare her general reactions to her specific reactions when it comes to the Griever thing.

Really, this is getting far too much. There is no way to determine whether Ultimecia found the GF Griever, or whether she pulled it out of Squall's mind. I believe the former is more likely, seeing that Squall does not necessarily fight Ultimecia at the end, which complicates matters, but there is no proof one way or another. But to try manipulate Griever's role in the game to prove R=U is ridiculous.

Yes, there's a way to determine.

For example:

Matron gained powers off Ultimecia.

Matron begun to know about Ellone after she came to the orphanage (She learnt about Ellone).
Which explains why Ellone left the orphanage earlier because she was scared of Matron due to her powers that were recieved by Ultimecia. Proof: you see little Squall calling Sis... at the orphanage for many times, which indicated that Ellone left him/the orphanage in the first place.

Later in the story, Ultimecia possessed Edea.

While possessing Edea, Ultimecia has just found out about Ellone and her special power.

Ultimecia begun looking for Ellone.

So, based on that logic:

Rinoa learnt about Griever.

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa. While possessing Rinoa, Ultimecia has just found out about Griever.

In the end, she summoned Griever.

The point is that if Rinoa has never learnt about Griever in the first place, there is no way that Ultimecia could summon Griever. Ultimecia can't just gain knowledge, unless she possesses someone.

[champagne supernova]

Yes, there's a way to determine.

For example:

Matron gained powers off Ultimecia.

Matron begun to know about Ellone after she came to the orphanage (She learnt about Ellone).
Which explains why Ellone left the orphanage earlier because she was scared of Matron due to her powers that were recieved by Ultimecia. Proof: you see little Squall calling Sis... at the orphanage for many times, which indicated that Ellone left him/the orphanage in the first place.

Ellone didn't leave the orphanage because she was afraid of Edea. Edea sent Ellone away, to be protected by the White SeeDs, so that if she was possessed, Ellone would be out of harms way. But the gist of what you're saying is still the same.

Later in the story, Ultimecia possessed Edea.

While possessing Edea, Ultimecia has just found out about Ellone and her special power.

Ultimecia begun looking for Ellone.

So, based on that logic:

Rinoa learnt about Griever.

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa. While possessing Rinoa, Ultimecia has just found out about Griever.

In the end, she summoned Griever.

The point is that if Rinoa has never learnt about Griever in the first place, there is no way that Ultimecia could summon Griever. Ultimecia can't just gain knowledge, unless she possesses someone.

But it doesn't determine whether Griever is a real GF, like Ifrit/Bahamut etc. which Ultimecia found, or whether she summoned it out of Squall's mind. I feel the former is more likely, but they both have merits.

Ultimecia may have found out about Griever from Rinoa when she possessed her. Or, perhaps Ultimecia read it out of a history book, or a book on GFs, or Squall's autobiography. One cannot prove that one way or another either, although it is definitely probable that Ultimecia found out through Rinoa.

But, I don't know how that shows Rinoa is Ultimecia.

[Serapy]

Yes, there's a way to determine.

For example:

Matron gained powers off Ultimecia.

Matron begun to know about Ellone after she came to the orphanage (She learnt about Ellone).
Which explains why Ellone left the orphanage earlier because she was scared of Matron due to her powers that were recieved by Ultimecia. Proof: you see little Squall calling Sis... at the orphanage for many times, which indicated that Ellone left him/the orphanage in the first place.

Ellone didn't leave the orphanage because she was afraid of Edea. Edea sent Ellone away, to be protected by the White SeeDs, so that if she was possessed, Ellone would be out of harms way. But the gist of what you're saying is still the same.

Ellone leaving on purpose and Matron sending her away is the same difference as leaving the orphanage alone. If Matron has never gained powers in the first place, then she didn't have to leave so early.
Matron is a nice woman, I'm sure she wouldn't do the wrong thing (keeping Ellone at all the time), but it's too late for that. It doesn't even matter if Ellone is near Edea or not because Edea already have gained the knowledge of Ellone.

Later in the story, Ultimecia possessed Edea.

While possessing Edea, Ultimecia has just found out about Ellone and her special power.

Ultimecia begun looking for Ellone.

So, based on that logic:

Rinoa learnt about Griever.

Ultimecia possessed Rinoa. While possessing Rinoa, Ultimecia has just found out about Griever.

In the end, she summoned Griever.

The point is that if Rinoa has never learnt about Griever in the first place, there is no way that Ultimecia could summon Griever. Ultimecia can't just gain knowledge, unless she possesses someone.

But it doesn't determine whether Griever is a real GF, like Ifrit/Bahamut etc. which Ultimecia found, or whether she summoned it out of Squall's mind. I feel the former is more likely, but they both have merits.

Ultimecia may have found out about Griever from Rinoa when she possessed her. Or, perhaps Ultimecia read it out of a history book, or a book on GFs, or Squall's autobiography. One cannot prove that one way or another either, although it is definitely probable that Ultimecia found out through Rinoa.

But, I don't know how that shows Rinoa is Ultimecia.

During Rinoa's conservation with Squall about the ring, you will get the chance to name it (default is Griever). You also get the same chance to name other GFs, which probably show that Griever was a GF after all (due to the name choosing). But what's the point of having an non-existent GF in the whole game (apart from Ultimecia summoning it) and why did you have to name Griever when it's part of the story and not gameplay? GFs are meant to assist in battles controlled by your characters, Griever certainly didn't assist that job. Holding Griever didn't make Squall stronger either, in fact he's almost emotional at all the time. So that may rise a possibility that the main purpose of Griever is to be awaken until Ultimecia has summoned it, basically.

Or there's another possibility that Square Enix wanted to make Griever as the final GF for game play purposes but then they have changed mind, so they have put Griever into the final battle. This possibility doesn't seem to be likely, but who knows?

[BG-57]

Considering how some GFs can be drawn from enemy bosses, it's possible that Ultimecia drew Griever from Squall (or perhaps someone else). It seems that bosses that hold GFs cannot actually summon them.

I like the idea of Griever existing before Squall's visit to the castle, but I don't know if it can be proven either way.

[Saber]

I wonder where future_esthar is. Anyways I've never believed R=U but some points Serapy says makes since. Way to go Serapy!!

Oh yeah I would like to see a whole bunch of R=U believers to dish out their "theories" at one time. That

[Hyperion4444]

The closest I see the R=U theory is that, indeed, Ultimecia did in fact inhereted Rinoa's powers. (From Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress.....)

I have a much better and 100% logical on all of this Sorceress deal.
but I won't tell.

[Serapy]

Thanks guys! Please criticise me if I'm wrong some how.

The closest I see the R=U theory is that, indeed, Ultimecia did in fact inhereted Rinoa's powers. (From Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress.....)

I have a much better and 100% logical on all of this Sorceress deal.
but I won't tell.

Please tell! I beg you!

[Hyperion4444]

Thanks guys! Please criticise me if I'm wrong some how.

The closest I see the R=U theory is that, indeed, Ultimecia did in fact inhereted Rinoa's powers. (From Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress.....)

I have a much better and 100% logical on all of this Sorceress deal.
but I won't tell.

Please tell! I beg you!

Huh?!

Ultimecia is not Rinoa, but her Sorceress powers may as well be her decendant. She must haved received her powers from some Sorceress, not directly either, of course. But transcended from Sorceress Rinoa to Sorceress to Sorceress to Sorceress... eventually Ultimecia.
And that would make sence since we know when a Sorceress dies, she gives her Sorceress powers to another Sorceress.

I also have a theory, heh, I guess I won't tell.

[ReloadPsi]

For those wanting to debunk the notion that Ultimecia created Griever, it's actually true. She did. The idea of a GF seems to be some kind of translation error; the French version, directly retranslated from Japanese clearly has Ultimecia stating that she can create the ultimate monster based on their thoughts, making them fall victim to their own imaginations. Scanning Griever reveals "In Squall's mind, the ultimate GF" because in his head, Griever is what he aspires to.

Short version: Griever's not a GF. He's a figure that Squall idolises.

However, given that Ultimecia's capable of possessing another body via Junction Machine Ellone, it stands to reason she'd learn about the importance of Griever just by entering Rinoa's body and mind. The only bit of Rinoa that Ultimecia actually has is her powers, handed down over generations of Sorceresses. Rinoa doesn't gain any of Edea's or Adel's memories through inheriting their powers, so I doubt Ultimecia gets any of Rinoa's memories.

Short version: Ultimecia's had access to Rinoa's thoughts. Rinoa also idolises this "Griever".

The other thing is, she's an insanely powerful Sorceress who can pretty much do whatever the hell she wants. If it means casting a spell that causes the party to think of and subsequently create the one thing that could truly kick the crap out of them, it shall be done. Remember Ghostbusters? Gozer tells them that whatever they imagine will be what comes to kill them.

I still 100% oppose R=U, but I totally agree that Griever is significant. That was established early on.

Little note: Griever's name is "Cronos" in the French version, and Ultimecia is into Time Magic... maybe there's another connection somewhere else? I know he was called Griever in Japan (or something to that effect; it was transliterated) but it makes you wonder what the translators had to work with...

[Serapy]

Yes, since Star and Lion symbolisms are both Heroic, it's no doubt that Rinoa idolises Lion (Griever).

[thePSgamer]

When I said "disprove my theory with information", it can be either evidence based or not.

Rinoa: Hmm...so this L I O N of yours, does it have a name?

Squall: Of course. Griever.

Rinoa: So that's what you call it. You know Zell said he'll make me one
exactly like it. Who knows, maybe I can become like a lion, too. That'd
be crazy, huh!? I mean, everyone might, y'know, get the wrong idea
about us.

It implies that she actually likes the norm of Griever. At that time, she wasn't possessed, either. I don't recall any event that Squall has told Rinoa about Griever or implied things about Griever (strength and pride) WHILE she was possessed.
So, how did Ulti knew about Griever? She CAN'T manfiest Griever out of Squall WITHOUT knowing the existence of Griever in the first place, see what I mean? Rinoa IS the only person who knew about Griever, Squall even told her the name.
I don't think Ulti has the ability to read Squall's mind, so how? That's why my theory seem to make sense, Rinoa is Ultimecia and created Griever due to her insanity. I'm not saying it's TRUE but it seems very plausible to me.

In the game, when Rinoa was possessed, she went absolutely mad in the space station = insanity.
So if Rinoa is Ulimecia, she will become insane and creates Griever because she acknowledged Griever from Squall in the first place. Insanity = leads to unpredictable things.

There are a lot of evidences that Squall has careless attitudes against his friends, including Rinoa. Yet, as the story goes on, Rinoa always became on Squall's side, caring about him, loving him, etc. Does that sound odd? With my theory, it doesn't seem odd to me anymore.



She saw it, good faith has returned, after that event, Squall has found her. That's because of Griever, when she looked at Griever, she thinks of strength and pride, so she got good hope.

-------

Adel grabbed Rinoa.
Rinoa passed out.

When she woke up, this dialogue imploded:

Rinoa: I...was inside Adel... The young Adel...

and then Laguna said Ulti was inside Adel. That seems Suspicious.

You know, the whole event when Adel woke up. The monsters started fleeing from the moon. Yes, the moon where it symbolizes Griever. Seems Suspicious as well.



I wonder who is that? A new witch in the future? She has similar wings as Ulti, Edea and Adel. Shiva is naked, that woman in the picture also seems to be naked, hmm.

Theres only one problem with this theory. Rinoa was NOT the only one that knew about griever. Matron/Edea also knew about griever because she was the one that gave it to Squall. Where it originated from is what should be debated.