PlayStation 4 details...

[Wolf Kanno]

Even if your argument is non-downloadable software, you're still overlooking how hard Sony is pushing games like Sing Star, Buzz, Little Big Planet, and the 360 has Rock Band/guitar hero just as the others do in addition to Viva Pinata. It doesn't get much more casual than that.

Also, just because Sony released a machine like the PS3 doesn't mean the company itself has a "hardcore" business design. They're still pushing PS2's, the fact that they'rve released yet another new bundle with the new Lego Batman and a Justice League DVD is obvious of that. Hell, there's even still games being developed for the ps2, so to say that nintendo's competitors are going to be forced to change their business plan is beyond rediculous.

I'm just saying that Sony and Microsoft probably don't have as much of the market as Nintendo cause you listed five games (a few being on the Wii as well) while sad to say, most of the Wii library can be considered casual affair.

I also argue that your logic about why Sony would not change their plan is also a bit silly Nintendo struck a gold mine and I find it odd that people don't think Sony or Microsoft are not going to try and cash in on this. For crying out loud, they both want you to use their systems as their full entertainment center; they don't hide it in their press conferences. Granted, I do feel that Sony and Microsoft making Wii clones for their next system is highly unlikely; but I feel they would be stupid if they didn't try to take ideas and concepts, concerning why the Wii did so well, into account for the next console system.

I really feel the market is going to change rather dramatically this generation. What it will become is anyone's guess though...

[Bolivar]

^ i think you missed the entire point then. It's not that Sony & MS won't change, it's that they've already accomodated to current trends. I put forth about their downloadable content, you said it's about non-downloadable software. I listed such products, you claim 5 is not enough (obviously there are many more examples). I never suggested Sony & MS capitalize off of it to the extent that the Wii does; in fact I would suggest that's something (the wii's percent of casual-focus) that's not going to happen.

Again, one of my main points is that Sony is already pushing an inexpensive, casual console - the PS2. The new bundle they released just over a week ago is obvious enough.

[Wolf Kanno]

^ i think you missed the entire point then. It's not that Sony & MS won't change, it's that they've already accomodated to current trends. I put forth about their downloadable content, you said it's about non-downloadable software. I listed such products, you claim 5 is not enough (obviously there are many more examples). I never suggested Sony & MS capitalize off of it to the extent that the Wii does; in fact I would suggest that's something (the wii's percent of casual-focus) that's not going to happen.

Again, one of my main points is that Sony is already pushing an inexpensive, casual console - the PS2. The new bundle they released just over a week ago is obvious enough.

You're right, I did miss that. Sorry about the confusion. Though I find it hard to think of Rock Band and Guitar Hero as "ultra casual affairs" considering the massive hardcore following its created in their short time. It may become like DDR which was a fun game for the casual crowd until a ultra hardcore fanbase came about that scared most people from getting into it. Granted, GH and RB have a different distribution but its also not as cheap.

Does the PS2 have the longevity or even enough current exposure for ultra casual gamer to even realize that Sony still supports it? I was actually reading an article on PS2 games that were being released this year and out of the 10 examples, I only knew of two of them (P4 and Yakuza 2 ). I consider myself somewhat in the loop of the industry and even I'm unaware of what's being released on the system.

The one point I feel you missed though is that Sony and Microsoft don't even bother marketing their systems for the ultra casual crowd. Sony's ads at first tried to convince you that the system is a revolution and now they are a bit more humble. Microsoft has promoted their system as the "everyman" system but I feel we all know they mean the normal gamers and not really for people who don't play the genre.

What I'm getting at is that the next generation may see systems and ad campaigns that are targeted towards "everyone" not just people who are interested in the industry. Look at how the Wii is marketed, it lacks intimidation and it actually shows family and friends bonding and having fun. Its has no intimidation and it shows wide groups of people having fun. I guess what I'm saying is, where's the commercials for the non-gamers from Sony and Microsoft? Neither company is even trying hard to get a part of Nintendo's success, and though they have products for them, they don't seem to be trying hard to let the news out. Personally I'm not sure if its out of pride or more likely a fear that trying to appeal to them might offend their fanbases that are supporting them.

Its not just the hardware and software, its the way its presented to people. Dreamcast was a wonderful system but people ignored it cause Sony presented the PS2 as the next revolutionary step in gaming. I feel that next generation will see more of a utilitarian approach to media exposure.

EDIT: Before I get called on this, by intimidation, I refer to showing games that the rest of us play that boring people would generally not touch. Unless your grandma is awesome and likes beating up whores for their money in GTA...

[Iceglow]

Well in reality the first real GIMMICK in gaming had to be Sing Star which was Sony and then the Eye Toy games again which were Sony...Sony gave Nintendo an idea, at the time of the Gamecubes height Sony were outselling Microsoft and Nintendo both at an average rate of 5:1 thats pretty harsh I'll put the DC and PS1 up for you 15:1 was an average outsell rate 15 PS1 for every DC sold worldwide. Sony killed and half buried Sega before the Cube and the Xbox were even out. Nintendo however had once again made a mistake, they'd released a console which had failed to improve remarkably upon the ps1 compared to the xbox and ps2 the cube was remarkably disappointing.

Preferring to use their own disc format didn't help either to be honest, Sony have suceeded with Blu-ray because Sony turned it's monstrous electrical goods department and entertainment departments to it too. Blu-Ray became a format of the next generation movie as well and alongside the release of the Blu-Ray ps3 came the Blu-ray player where Sony leads, others will follow it's that simple. MS used CDs and then DVDs just like Sony did the next MS console is likely to use Blu-ray since HD-DVD failed miserably against Blu-Ray. Already PC's can be brought with Blu-Ray drives installed so we can see that Blu-ray is indeed the future. However enough of my going on about formats, the Cube was a remarkable disappointment compared to the ps2 and xbox enough said.

When the 360 came out of the closet and in to the world I think Nintendo knew whatever Sony produced if it was on par or better than the 360 they'd never win a stand up fight microsoft and sony by this point were too big and had taken too much of the market. Without a huge chunk of the market left in the "hardcore" or "professional" gamers market the company looked elsewhere and found it's niche, Nintendo focussed on minority gamer groups such as girls, older people and the younger children they made gaming fun for parties however look at the power of their console.

Nintendo will not compete on the same level in the same way with Sony or MS again ever when it comes to games consoles they narrowly avoided becomming nothing more than a software label with the Wii, it was an incredible gambit and it has paid off for them hats off. As for the other two, well yes they will change they have to, nintendo's gambit has seen the under powered non-serious "no threat" console prove them all wrong. Nintendo's last gambit saved them and it's put sony and microsoft on their back foot.

However Sony and MS realize they have the serious gaming prospects and will not turn their back on the market completely. Expect to see more gimmicky games such as Guitar hero, Rock Band, Sing Star, Eye Toy comming out which will utilize many new and gimmicky control pads ect but do not expect the consoles to be low power, short burst wii-clones we will not be seeing the Pii or Xii but I seriously doubt the dual control stick, d-pad, trigger shoulder button and thumb button pads are a thing of the past even for the next series of consoles. I reckon we might see more options to use those gimmick control pads but we won't be forced to if anything I reckon we might even see the option of a XBOX certified keyboard and mouse combination on the next one.

[black orb]

>>> I just hope the PS4 E3 conference get funny enough..

[Wolf Kanno]

However Sony and MS realize they have the serious gaming prospects and will not turn their back on the market completely. Expect to see more gimmicky games such as Guitar hero, Rock Band, Sing Star, Eye Toy comming out which will utilize many new and gimmicky control pads ect but do not expect the consoles to be low power, short burst wii-clones we will not be seeing the Pii or Xii but I seriously doubt the dual control stick, d-pad, trigger shoulder button and thumb button pads are a thing of the past even for the next series of consoles. I reckon we might see more options to use those gimmick control pads but we won't be forced to if anything I reckon we might even see the option of a XBOX certified keyboard and mouse combination on the next one.

This last paragraph was interesting to note. I do wonder if we may see a return of the "Atari/Nintendo entertainment centers"? By this, I mean what is the possibility that future consoles may include some of the extra peripherals needed to coerce far more casual gamers into purchasing a console. I feel all three console companies could do better if they added at least a few essential peripherals like a keyboard or perhaps an extra controller. :rolleyes2

I've always wondered that perhaps if the Wii had been released with a normal controller as well as the Wii-mote, if this may have given third party developers more of an incentive to make games without utilizing the Wii's motion sensing properties? I guess I wonder this cause it seems to me that the DS became more of a success when third party developers stopped using the DS functions as the main focus of the product. Rather just make the game and if anything could use some of the DS' extra features it was utilized. Course I don't see the Wii changing its tune unless the market goes sour but its more of an interesting "what if" if anything.

[Momiji]

Well in reality the first real GIMMICK in gaming had to be Sing Star which was Sony and then the Eye Toy games again which were Sony....

This doesn't count as a gimmick?

My personal views: if the gimmick is interesting enough, I don't care.

[KentaRawr!]

It would be really interesting if the Ps4 were to use Motion-Controls similar to that of the Wii, just to see how developers for their system use it. Some developers on the Wii have really made some nice Control Schemes for the Wii, even if many could be done on a regular controller.

I do not really like the idea of swinging a sword for an RPG, Cyric. Using something like Motion Controls seems like it would fit more for a sort of seamless experience, where battles and exploration are more intertwined, and more similar. Switching the player's stance whenever something as common as a battle in an RPG happens seems silly.

Here I am, walking along, opening a treasure chest! Oh, wait, battle. Here I am, exerting energy! Oh, I won. Ok, back to sitting. Wait, no, another battle. Time to exert mah energiez! Oh, darn it. I won too quickly! Well, hey, I'll just sit here and... BATTLEZ WTF? *Stands up*

The above is bad.

[Bolivar]

The one point I feel you missed though is that Sony and Microsoft don't even bother marketing their systems for the ultra casual crowd. Sony's ads at first tried to convince you that the system is a revolution and now they are a bit more humble. Microsoft has promoted their system as the "everyman" system but I feel we all know they mean the normal gamers and not really for people who don't play the genre.

First it was they don't have the software, then it was they don't have the non-downloadable software, next it was that they don't have enough, now you're arguing they don't spend enough marketing for it?

If you mean to grandparents, I'd absolutely agree with you. But now both MS and Sony are spending alot of money marketing Rock Band 2 - each with their own commercial - a game which undoubtedly attracts those who wouldn't otherwise play video games. We could also talk about the Burger King line of 360 games a while back,
or any of the other games I listed in a previous post.

Does the PS2 have the longevity or even enough current exposure for ultra casual gamer to even realize that Sony still supports it?

What routes are you claiming "ultra casual" gamers accumulate industry information from? If you think television, the amount of multi-platform games that are coming out on the PS2 is proof enough. Someone recently said "It's not over until EA Sports says its over."

I think one of the main places families go to get info on what's on the market is the game retail locations themselves. As I already brought up, not only is the PS2 still on the shelves, a new bundle was released recently. Families see "oh, I not only get little johnny a cute lego game with it, but a justice league DVD!" etc... As far as longevity goes, releasing 130 games this year, i'd say hell yeah, the PS2's got longevity!

What I've been saying all along is that the "casual revolution" is not going to alter competitors plans for the next generation - it's already underway on current platforms, and Sony even predates Nintendo on it in some aspects, as Iceglow pointed out.

[Wolf Kanno]

First it was they don't have the software, then it was they don't have the non-downloadable software, next it was that they don't have enough, now you're arguing they don't spend enough marketing for it?

I got to keep you on your toes don't I?

If you mean to grandparents, I'd absolutely agree with you. But now both MS and Sony are spending alot of money marketing Rock Band 2 - each with their own commercial - a game which undoubtedly attracts those who wouldn't otherwise play video games. We could also talk about the Burger King line of 360 games a while back,
or any of the other games I listed in a previous post.

We all know the BK games were terrible though... I meant good content. Anyway, its true that Rock Band 2 is proven to bring in casual gamers but you forgot about price issues which I mentioned. Rock Band is not exactly a cheap game for a hobby you might play a few times a week. I think what I'm getting at is that Sony and MS are trying to grab these people but I feel from the hindsight of the Wii's success that it seems like they keep making simple mistakes, which is why the Wii is still difficult to find two years after its release.

What routes are you claiming "ultra casual" gamers accumulate industry information from? If you think television, the amount of multi-platform games that are coming out on the PS2 is proof enough. Someone recently said "It's not over until EA Sports says its over."

I'd say I defined "ultra casual" as 6-dead with an emphasis on children who can't grasp semi-complex control schemes (think MGS4), girls and boys who have no interest in gaming but rather sports or other more active pursuits, stay at home parents and working parent who don't have the time nor interest to learn how to play CoD4 or to sit through Lost Odyssey's cutscenes and story, and grandparents who don't want to bother learning controls and or care about plot and detail.

Personally, I feel their are games on all consoles to appeal to these people but marketing-wise, how are Sony and MS really getting out the message to them. The Rock Band commercial and Guitar Hero commercials are pretty vague on what the games are about unless you already know... Hell both games sold well more from a "word of mouth" PR than actual commercials.

I think one of the main places families go to get info on what's on the market is the game retail locations themselves. As I already brought up, not only is the PS2 still on the shelves, a new bundle was released recently. Families see "oh, I not only get little johnny a cute lego game with it, but a justice league DVD!" etc... As far as longevity goes, releasing 130 games this year, i'd say hell yeah, the PS2's got longevity!

Hey, I feel the PS2 has longevity from a gamers point of view but I sometimes wonder how much of that is based on the ultra casual crowd and not just normal consumers of the industry.

Also, I've heard most game purchases are actually from huge retail outlets like Wal-Mart and Target. Game stores are pretty sparse in smaller towns. This is just something I bring up its not a point of conflict.

What I've been saying all along is that the "casual revolution" is not going to alter competitors plans for the next generation - it's already underway on current platforms, and Sony even predates Nintendo on it in some aspects, as Iceglow pointed out.

I agree, I just feel that the Sony and MS may learn from Nintendo and change some methods for the next console generation. Then again, as I've said unless we get some grand change in visual and audio technology I really feel that the next generation will be interesting to see. I'm personally hoping for better designed consoles' that benefit the developers more.

[ljkkjlcm9]

I've always wondered that perhaps if the Wii had been released with a normal controller as well as the Wii-mote, if this may have given third party developers more of an incentive to make games without utilizing the Wii's motion sensing properties? I guess I wonder this cause it seems to me that the DS became more of a success when third party developers stopped using the DS functions as the main focus of the product. Rather just make the game and if anything could use some of the DS' extra features it was utilized. Course I don't see the Wii changing its tune unless the market goes sour but its more of an interesting "what if" if anything.

Except even without the motion sensing you can use the controller perfectly fine. It has the A and B buttons, Z and C on the left with the control stick. + and -, the D pad 4 directions, and even the two 1, 2 buttons on the bottom. Granted those two bottom buttons can be a pain in the butt to reach, but that leaves, 6 buttons plus the 4 D-pad directions for controls.

It's a different set up than most people are use to, but it really shouldn't be that big of a deal, cause it can work for smash bros pretty well(2nd favorite to GC just because that's what I was use to). It's my preferred control for Mario Kart, and for FPS, well you should use the aim thing anyways, Metroid Prime 3 showed it could be done excellently.

THE JACKEL

[Wolf Kanno]

I've always wondered that perhaps if the Wii had been released with a normal controller as well as the Wii-mote, if this may have given third party developers more of an incentive to make games without utilizing the Wii's motion sensing properties? I guess I wonder this cause it seems to me that the DS became more of a success when third party developers stopped using the DS functions as the main focus of the product. Rather just make the game and if anything could use some of the DS' extra features it was utilized. Course I don't see the Wii changing its tune unless the market goes sour but its more of an interesting "what if" if anything.

Except even without the motion sensing you can use the controller perfectly fine. It has the A and B buttons, Z and C on the left with the control stick. + and -, the D pad 4 directions, and even the two 1, 2 buttons on the bottom. Granted those two bottom buttons can be a pain in the butt to reach, but that leaves, 6 buttons plus the 4 D-pad directions for controls.

It's a different set up than most people are use to, but it really shouldn't be that big of a deal, cause it can work for smash bros pretty well(2nd favorite to GC just because that's what I was use to). It's my preferred control for Mario Kart, and for FPS, well you should use the aim thing anyways, Metroid Prime 3 showed it could be done excellently.

THE JACKAL

I'm fine with the controller personally, I was just stating an off the wall theory that perhaps third party companies were intimidated by it or more likely, they stuck to the original control scheme so they can try to utilize the controllers strength when all they really did was shoe horn controls when they had a better option (the one you pointed out). It just seems that developers think that point and click, and thrashing about, is all the controller does. Of course their are notable exceptions.

I'm just surprised that with the possible exception of Capcom's Okami and No More Heroes; no one seems to try and use the controller like Nintendo did for Zelda and Metroid. They just stick to Wario Ware, Raving Rabbits, and WiiSports setup.

[Bolivar]

We all know the BK games were terrible though... I meant good content.

Well, it's not like the Wii is producing casual content that's good either!

j/p

[Mercen-X]

I certainly hope Sony/MS can or are keeping up with Nintendo or whatever, but I also don't want anyone getting in over their head or trying to corner the market. Nothing goes right for a consumer when a developer holds all the cards. First, we pay more, then we get less for our money.

I personally have no doubts that there will be a PS4, and possibly unimaginably soon. Hell, who the hell knows, Final Fantasy VII's remake might be released on that system as its main draw point.

Personally, I feel that a lot of draw for the PlayStation and Xbox comes from marketing pop-culture such as music, movies, hot-topic shows, and of course J-pop. Without this, the systems themselves hold no real appeal. Nintendo's main focus is naturally on gatherings and simplicity over soloing and complex-puzzling and the avoidance of awkward control schemes.

[Wolf Kanno]

We all know the BK games were terrible though... I meant good content.

Well, it's not like the Wii is producing casual content that's good either!

j/p

I agree with you on this one. :mog: