Tanks

[Miriel]

End-game is basically about 70% of this game, so you are missing out on quite a bit. I am not saying this is a bad thing, just letting you know. It's great that you'd rather take a nap, but you can't just discredit the majority of the game and the majority of the game's user base just because you don't agree with it, or don't want to experience it.

It's 70% of the game for you. I'm not willfully ignoring a vast chunk (as you consider it) of the game simply because I don't agree with it. I just haven't experienced it. I've never felt pressured to experience it, and I've never felt I was missing out because I wasn't experiencing it. And I never actively avoided it, it's just with so much to do in this game, I never got around to it. As soon as I achieved all I wanted with my white mage, I was immediately smitten with DNC and got that ball rolling. And after DNC, I fell in love with the scholar AF and am pursing that. I play the game based on which things interest me at any given time. And mostly, I'm interested in having fun. Getting fabulous gear is fun for sure. So I may get into end game stuff eventually to get pretty things for Eleni. But I have lots to occupy myself with in the meantime.

I have had a thoroughly enjoyable time in FFXI without ever having to do much end game stufft. I've had a ton of fun doing missions and quests and unlocking jobs and leveling those jobs. Doing random stuff with friends, helping out newbies, collecting christmas trees and other sparkly things for my mog house, doing level 1 death runs to and from Jeuno, skilling up club skill to get hexa strike, doing besieged, etc. This game is huge! Tons to do, people to meet, jobs to level, gear to acquire, storylines to explores, and goofy things to do.

If you're doing end game and having fun, props to you. But I made it very clear from the beginning that I was speaking from personal experience and seeing as how I was talking about things like level 1 summons, it should have been pretty clear that I wasn't talking from an end-game stand point.

I truly wasn't aware that vast majority of the FFXI population are heavily into end game stuff. Just didn't know about it. And I guess since I never knew, it never was an issue. And if it's not an issue, who cares?

This game is not 70% endgame, it's 100% whatever you make it to be.

too true.

Most fun I've ever had in FFXI is when Misfit and I went to Valkurm to PL random parties, both of us being Level 1 WHMs

This sounds amazing.

[Ouch!]

Omecle was merely commenting that "end-game" activities make up a majority of what the game has to offer. There's no need to twist his words like he's disregarding the rest of what the game has to offer. In sheer volume of content, there's more to do at level 75 than there is at any other level in the game. Whether or not you're bored of it doesn't change the fact that it makes up a huge portion of the game's offered content.

I truly wasn't aware that vast majority of the FFXI population are heavily into end game stuff. Just didn't know about it. And I guess since I never knew, it never was an issue. And if it's not an issue, who cares?

When an MMORPG has been out as long as FFXI has (seven years), it's hard to expect that most of the population wasn't involved in end-game. I very rarely encounter people who don't already have a job at level 75, even at the low levels. Part of FFXI's problem is that it hasn't steadily attracted a large population of newer players. This became especially obnoxious before level sync, since there was a huge drop off in the number of parties beyond level 40. People would stop because they were more often than not leveling a support job. I know a few people who quit because the mid-levels used to be so obnoxiously awful.

Cbc speaks from an ignorant point of view. I've known plenty of great DRGs and it has nothing to do with colibri. There's nothing wrong with DRG and there never was anything wrong with it. A couple bad eggs probably gave it a bad reputation when the game first started and that had a snowball effect. I started playing after all that crap so I never noticed it except in message boards.

I can honestly say that Cbc is a bit more accurate than you're giving him credit for, Del. DRG had some serious hurdles overcome before it became a desired job. The biggest one was that call wyvern used to be the DRG's two hour. This severely handicapped the job as a large part of what makes DRG so successful is its wyvern's abilities. I'm fairly certain that Spirit Link, the ability to heal your DRG with your own HP, was also added quite a while after DRG was released. Beyond that, simply because Square Enix are jerks and leave the players to figure everything out, it took an awful long time until people really figured out how different support jobs actually changed the wyvern's job and what breath attacks it would use and when. The update to two-handed weapons was also a huge boost to DRG (as it was for also DRK and SAM). That paired with the advent of the colibri party really did a lot to make sure that DRG had a solidified place in FFXI. It's no longer lolDRG, but for a while it was, and it wasn't just because of a few people who didn't play it very well.

As for DNC, the problem with the job is that while it's perhaps one of the best support jobs for any melee in the game, and is incredibly useful at level 40, the job never really gets anything that makes it stand out beyond that point. At endgame, DNC can't do much of anything that BRD or COR can't do better. I hope it gets the same treatment that other jobs have gotten in the past, because it has a lot of potential, but it has nothing that makes it desirable in any real situation.

PUP doesn't deserve the bad attitude that the community gives it because that thing is seriously broken. It's an absolute powerhouse. The only problem is that the disparity between a good PUP and a bad PUP is absolutely huge. Most PUPs are bad PUPs because the things you need to be a good PUP (mostly equipment for your automaton) are prohibitively expensive. Since most PUPs don't have the money to drop into it, they suffer the same problem that DNC does. They don't stand out. For the most part, they become a watered-down MNK with a pet.

[Miriel]

Omecle was merely commenting that "end-game" activities make up a majority of what the game has to offer. There's no need to twist his words like he's disregarding the rest of what the game has to offer. In sheer volume of content, there's more to do at level 75 than there is at any other level in the game. Whether or not you're bored of it doesn't change the fact that it makes up a huge portion of the game's offered content.

Oh lordy. What are you talking about Ouch? Seriously, dude what's with the defensiveness?

I shared that fact that in my 4 years of playing the game, I have always had plenty to do, and plenty of fun, and rarely experienced the kind of rigorous discrimination that you all have mentioned. And I made it clear that I never invested in end game stuff where the standards are different as I've already stated. I just think it's completely possible to have a great experience in FFXI without taking up the end game content which is intensely time consuming, strict, and difficult. That's all man. It ain't that deep.

I truly wasn't aware that vast majority of the FFXI population are heavily into end game stuff. Just didn't know about it. And I guess since I never knew, it never was an issue. And if it's not an issue, who cares?

When an MMORPG has been out as long as FFXI has (seven years), it's hard to expect that most of the population wasn't involved in end-game. I very rarely encounter people who don't already have a job at level 75, even at the low levels. Part of FFXI's problem is that it hasn't steadily attracted a large population of newer players. This became especially obnoxious before level sync, since there was a huge drop off in the number of parties beyond level 40. People would stop because they were more often than not leveling a support job. I know a few people who quit because the mid-levels used to be so obnoxiously awful.

Of course people have level 75 characters. That's not what I'm talking about when I talk about end-game. Getting to level 75 isn't end game, that's just... the game. xD But when someone talks about how 70% of the game is end game stuff, I wasn't thinking in terms of pure content, I was thinking in terms of how many people actually spend the bulk of their time doing specifically end game stuff.

Like I said, there's so much to do in this game. And if you want to fight gods and whatnot, then making strategically sound choices in jobs and subjobs is a good thing. If that is what you want to do. But if you want to just have fun leveling a certain job because it's a job you have fun playing, it's silly to change your plans based on the fact that you might be doing dynamis once a week and your WHM would be overlooked for a RDM.

Your own wishes and desires should be considered first, and THEN factor in community standards and expectations. Ultimately, whatever you do in this game I feel should be motivated from a desire to have fun. People have fun doing different things. But I don't think you should sacrifice your own entertainment just so you can be exactly what a specific group of people want you to be for a very specific event on very specific days.

[Del Murder]

You're the one who's twisting things, Ouch!! But I've reached my limit of long ass posts I care to make on the subject.

Hasn't Call Wyvern been a 20min ability for longer than it hasn't been? As long as I've been playing at least. The lolDRG mentality was still in effect at that time too, for really no reason.

I've seen a DNC main heal a melee party in Dynamis, while also giving us the very cool Haste Samba.

I really think you guys read too much into this stuff.

[Mirage]

One of the major annoyances with the wyvern was not only that it could easily die, and then you'd be screwed until the 2hour was ready again, but that also couldn't enter any towns or non-combat areas without losing it as well.

DRG has been able to keep up with most other DDs for a very long time, with the wyvern adding damage on top of that. They've always had very good accuracy, and a huge number of enemies are weak to piercing damage, which polearm inflicts. They also have A+ in that weapon.

I've also got the impression that drg got a bad reputation because *very* many players leveled it because the AF armor's cool looks. However, it's :bou::bou::bou::bou: to fulltime in, and adds very little to your damage dealing abilities in a party situation.

[WildRaubtier]

DRG's 2hr was changed in the December 2005 update. It gained Accuracy Bonus around the same time. Did that change the stigma? Nope.

Like I said, Colibri are the only reason DRG is somewhat free of stigma these days. It has nothing to do with the job itself, or the players playing it. In fact, there's still a lot of crappy DRGs out there. Mainly the people who "don't believe" in macroing gear swaps. I cringe everytime I see a Drachen Armet.

[Ouch!]

Omecle was merely commenting that "end-game" activities make up a majority of what the game has to offer. There's no need to twist his words like he's disregarding the rest of what the game has to offer. In sheer volume of content, there's more to do at level 75 than there is at any other level in the game. Whether or not you're bored of it doesn't change the fact that it makes up a huge portion of the game's offered content.

Oh lordy. What are you talking about Ouch? Seriously, dude what's with the defensiveness?

I shared that fact that in my 4 years of playing the game, I have always had plenty to do, and plenty of fun, and rarely experienced the kind of rigorous discrimination that you all have mentioned. And I made it clear that I never invested in end game stuff where the standards are different as I've already stated. I just think it's completely possible to have a great experience in FFXI without taking up the end game content which is intensely time consuming, strict, and difficult. That's all man. It ain't that deep.

I'm not trying to debate the point that you can't have a fulfilling time playing Final Fantasy XI without participating in any form of end game. I was merely pointing out that a large volume of what the game has to offer is considered end game. A number of the things you've mentioned in FFXI I can only view as a means to an end, mostly because I've done them enough that I've had my fill of them. I'm not being defensive, I just think you're full of it.

Of course people have level 75 characters. That's not what I'm talking about when I talk about end-game. Getting to level 75 isn't end game, that's just... the game. xD But when someone talks about how 70% of the game is end game stuff, I wasn't thinking in terms of pure content, I was thinking in terms of how many people actually spend the bulk of their time doing specifically end game stuff.

If it's something that you can only do at level 75 and it requires a group, I tend to consider it some form of end game. You can do Nyzul Isle runs on the fly, but I still consider that end game. KSNMs, ISNMs, Missions, ZNMs, HNMs, Assaults, Nyzul Isle, Dynamis, Sky, Sea, Limbus, Salvage, etc. are all events I consider endgame. This is a large portion of what FFXI has to offer. All I was saying by backing up Omecle was that these events make up a very significant chunk of what FFXI offers, and I think it's a shame to just ignore these things.

Like I said, there's so much to do in this game. And if you want to fight gods and whatnot, then making strategically sound choices in jobs and subjobs is a good thing. If that is what you want to do. But if you want to just have fun leveling a certain job because it's a job you have fun playing, it's silly to change your plans based on the fact that you might be doing dynamis once a week and your WHM would be overlooked for a RDM.

First of all, a WHM will almost never be overlooked in favor of a RDM. They do two completely different things at endgame, and suggesting otherwise just shows, as Del has said, "an ignorant point of view." Anyway, I'm not basing my entire argument around a job's usefulness in end game. Go ask a level 75 PUP if they were able to regularly get parties with relative ease while they were leveling it. A large number of jobs just have difficulty finding parties. I'm not saying this is a reason to abandon what you want to do. I've never been trying to argue such an extreme position. I'm just trying to make others aware of the attitude that has prevailed in the FFXI community for years. My problem with your argument, is that it seems you're suggesting that players should do whatever they want to do, and there won't be consequences. I'm just trying to make others aware that there are consequences of deviating from the norm.

Your own wishes and desires should be considered first, and THEN factor in community standards and expectations. Ultimately, whatever you do in this game I feel should be motivated from a desire to have fun. People have fun doing different things. But I don't think you should sacrifice your own entertainment just so you can be exactly what a specific group of people want you to be for a very specific event on very specific days.

Nor am I, but I am saying it is something of which one should be aware. Let's take for example my friend Kirou. He leveled THF to 75. He's leveling DNC to 75 now. He's preparing to level PUP to 75 next. He's also leveled DRG to 75 so that he has a job he can actually get parties done on. He's leveling DNC and PUP because he wants to, but he also recognizes that only having these jobs prevent him from doing other things he's interested in. That's the type of awareness that I support. There is a prejudice, often unfounded, in FFXI's community against many jobs. You're a WHM, Miriel. You wouldn't have experienced it, but maybe you should try and talk to someone who has before you try and say that we're exaggerating this prejudice.

Hasn't Call Wyvern been a 20min ability for longer than it hasn't been? As long as I've been playing at least. The lolDRG mentality was still in effect at that time too, for really no reason.

I've seen a DNC main heal a melee party in Dynamis, while also giving us the very cool Haste Samba.

I really think you guys read too much into this stuff.

Unfortunately, I'm much too amused by these debates to have reached my long post threshold quite yet.

At any rate, I'd argue your point about DRG is irrelevant. It took almost two years for Square Enix to change Call Wyvern to a 20 minute recast. Two years of prejudice didn't change instantly, and even then, until the two-handed weapon update, DRG was still fairly unpopular because jobs who could utilize /NIN for Dual Wield were far and away more popular (even though the numbers didn't stack up).

As for your comment about DNC, they're still perceived as inferior to WHM for main healing due to the lack of the ability to raise others (people are going to die in Dynamis, and having a main healer who can't raise them is a problem). Many would debate whether or not haste samba is actually worth using. It doesn't actually give haste; it lowers delay, which is bound to annoy anyone who uses a two-handed weapon since it messes with their TP gain. SAMs especially dislike it because it ruins 6-hit builds.

Summary: You don't have to conform if you don't want to, but just know that it potentially limits what you're able to easily accomplish!

[Del Murder]

I'm not being defensive, I just think you're full of it.

Uncalled for. Play nice.

You two obviously take different perspectives of the game. All I argue is that different perspectives exist, and that should be encouraged. Again, just because there are tons of end game content doesn't make it a shame to not play it, because everyone does their own thing. Is it a shame to not play Garrison or Brenner?

You two do know that you are arguing the same point about WHM, right? That it actually isn't inferior to RDM? Miriel was just saying that people gave the impression that attitude existed, which she didn't see to be the case in her experience. Remember, her experience as a WHM leveling and not doing endgame stuff. Please consider the perspective of the person you are arguing against before you reply.

[Miriel]

Holy moly! Dude, you are just digging in your heels aren't you?

First of all, a WHM will almost never be overlooked in favor of a RDM. They do two completely different things at endgame, and suggesting otherwise just shows, as Del has said, "an ignorant point of view."

That was an example I threw out there based on one of the very first posts made by BoB in this thread which implied that people have been telling him that white mages become unwanted toward the end of the game. I wasn't trying to get into specific strategies of end game playing. I have to say this again, IT AIN'T THAT DEEP MAN.

My problem with your argument, is that it seems you're suggesting that players should do whatever they want to do, and there won't be consequences.

No, I never said that, nor do I think I even suggested that. I gave a personal account of my experiences in the game. A personal experience that lacked the many discriminations and rigidness that makes up your view of the game.

Your argument has always been about how strict the FFXI community is. I've already said that this is probably true for end game material. You have presented your view off FFXI and I accept it as one piece of the whole FFXI experience. I have given my view of the game which I have over and over stated comes from a different aspect of the game, the non end game aspect. And yet you seem really really invested in refuting everything I said, even though I've said in pretty much every single post that this is all stuff that has come from my own personal experience of the game which has been filled with more casual and relaxed players than super strict ones.

So ok. You keep sprouting off about how harsh this game is. I've already said my piece and it seems like BoB and Co. are going along swimmingly, meeting great people and having a lot of fun which is fantastic and I hope their fun continues as long as they're playing the game cause that's really what it's all about.

I'm not being defensive, I just think you're full of it.

xDD

Ok buddy, you're not defensive at all. I'm not judging you man and I'm not discrediting the way you play the game. I give mad props to anyone who can handle end game stuff cause it takes skill and dedication. So you really don't need to jump down people's throat when they present a different outlook on things. Just cause I disagree with some of the things you've said doesn't mean I disregard them. I just thought your views were very one sided and didn't present the many many aspects of the game and the many many people who play the game who are not so strict or as inflexible as you made it out to be.

[Ouch!]

I was merely trying to draw attention to the fact that experiences leveling WHM, one of the most desired jobs in almost any situation in the entire game, are hardly indicative to the reality of the majority of the community. Earlier when I asked if we were playing the same game, I wasn't just being a smart ass. Granted, I was being a bit of a smart ass, but the idea of the majority of FFXI's community not being notoriously elitist is a concept so absolutely foreign, I couldn't even begin to grasp it as a reality.

One of the biggest criticisms I've encountered about FFXI for the past six years is how strict and unwilling to change the majority of the community is. It's been one of the few criticisms of Final Fantasy XI I've never even seen someone attempt to defend before. As you might imagine, after six years of accepting it as a given that FFXI's community is an exceptionally elitist and unforgiving one, I found it hard to swallow the idea that someone was actually arguing otherwise. Believe it or not, this is one of the few debates I've yet to have about Final Fantasy XI, so it's bit of fresh air for me.

If my argument has been perceived as trying to say that FFXI isn't worth playing if you don't do any endgame at all, then there's been a misconception. While I do believe you're short-changing yourself by not even trying it (I'm not accusing anyone here of this), I do recognize that you can still accomplish things outside of endgame. I've got a friend who's happily played Final Fantasy XI for six years without having ever done a scheduled event beyond a static to complete CoP.

All I've been trying to argue is that because so much of the game's content is geared towards community efforts, one has to be willing to compromise at some point if they wish to accomplish certain things. I'd go so far as to say that 90% of what you can accomplish in the game, for most jobs, can only be achieved by working with other people. As a result, the willingness to conform to a certain degree is necessary, unless you're the type of masochist who likes shouting in Whitegate for a few hours trying to find people willing to help you out.

If you want to do something relatively unpopular, like level BST exclusively, more power to you. Just don't expect to have an easy time getting through Chains of Promathia or other similar content.

I'm not trying to say one approach to FFXI is better than another (or even that the discrimination against jobs, sub jobs, and other factors is justifiable), but merely that both have their pitfalls. I believe the best option is to be mindful of both approaches to FFXI and take a healthy dose of each into consideration. Strike a balance between a willingness to conform and also the desire to innovate, and you'll find the happiest possible experience in FFXI.

I suppose our primary point of difference is merely how much of a handicap a lack of willingness to conform is going to impose on a player. I've seen enough examples to believe that it's severely disabling in nearly every circumstance (even outside of endgame). My only advice is that you try leveling one of those jobs which the community perceives as undesirable and compare it to your experiences on WHM as I have to mine on RDM. You'll see that many of those people you might have thought were pretty accepting aren't as willing to compromise as you might have initially thought.

[Loony BoB]

MWAHAHAHA, look at what I have started. Spread, chaos, spreeaaaaad! >=D

*cough*

Last night's party, with a PL, was: THF, SCH, WAR, RNG, SMN, BRD. xD Possibly the most talkative party I've had for some time, so it was awesome fun. Certainly different, though.

I think if everyone is quiet or focused entirely on the game at hand then it's entirely understandable to want a sensible and efficient party, because that's what you're there for. Otherwise people will get bored and frustrated. However, if you have a party with lots of talkative people then it doesn't matter who you're with because you're having fun regardless. This is basically what I've learned from my various leveling parties. I added three new friends last night and was partying with three other people I already knew (including the PL). Huzzah.

End game doesn't appeal to me as much as partying with Danielle and Shawtiie does. I miss Kentarou being around, though.

[Del Murder]

Apparently Midgard is full of elitists, according to Ouch!. I guess I'm glad I never went there. I don't think the majority of Pandy players are elitist. At least, not the ones I play with. Also this board seems to be the exception since I don't see the majority of players who post here as racists, as I have played with many of them.

I've got a friend who's happily played Final Fantasy XI for six years without having ever done a scheduled event beyond a static to complete CoP.

This reminds me of the guy who's accused of being a racist and his response is 'but I have plenty of black friends!'

[KentaRawr!]

So yeah, PLD tanks are pretty sweet.

[Del Murder]

I prefer WHM/WAR.

[Loony BoB]

I partied with a WHM/WAR the other day, actually. It was surprisingly effective. Hi, Mirage. xD

Racist is a bit extreme, don't you think? Or am I missing something... either way, I would hardly say Midgard is full of elitists, I think it's possible though that the people who Ouch! parties with may be likeminded individuals and therefore he would see things that way. In my experience, it's been the opposite of what he's saying... although apparently it's just the endgame people so I guess maybe that makes sense? All the people I've played with, and I've played with many now, have been awesome. The closest I've got to a "wtf" to do with my job/equipment is people laughing at me for having my L1 sword at L15 (they partied with me anyway, though, they just thought it was funny) and people telling me to, uh, stop buying new gear as I may as well just stick with my old stuff to save money. The people I hang out with are the talkative ones, though. We were being silly shouting nonsense at each other in Bastok last night and someone asked to join Overture purely based on that. xD So Ouch!, if you see a person called something like Katenundun or something, they're neat and like to chat. Pearl? xD