The greatest games - A Personal list of Neocracker~

Not proven false, my point was that this was an odd game to end up being taken so seriously competively. You have proven nothing. :p

Really I don't think this game was meant to be taken seriously at all. It was a goofy mash up fighter game which happened because a creepy hand gave life to figurines to beat the trout out of each other, a game whose intent was a fun time fight between peoples favorite characters.

Somehow though, serious competition arose from it, and they put a lot more work into future balancing. (Still, the most balanced of them, Melee, still has a lot of balancing issues.)

Hell, certain stages in these games aren't even allowed for tournament fighting.

Since the first game, it's seems they have been trying hard to maintain a balance of the tournament loving crowd, and those who play it because of wacky shenanigans.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Not proven false, my point was that this was an odd game to end up being taken so seriously competively. You have proven nothing. :p

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I was referring to the part where you linked to Meta's ban in Brawl and said it proved your point about lack of balance, plus the thing about bottom/low tiers never being used in top-level play. :p

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Really I don't think this game was meant to be taken seriously at all. It was a goofy mash up fighter game which happened because a creepy hand gave life to figurines to beat the trout out of each other, a game whose intent was a fun time fight between peoples favorite characters.

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Of course it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. However, since it is a game that offers pretty much all you could ask from a serious competitive fighter (I'm only talking about Melee now), while at the same time being original and to many a lot more fun, then why not? It's really just about playing a game to your maximum capacity, trying as hard as possible to win and see who's the best. As long as all big random factors are eliminated, I wouldn't really think it strange for just about any multiplayer game to see competitive play.

It also seems like a lot of "casual" players believe that people who play Melee on a competitive level don't actually have as much fun. But that's really not the case. I find it much more fun to compete to the maximum in just about any game than playing with only half my attention and "trying a little". The game is taken seriously because enough people like the game, want to test their skills in it and want to play as good as they can possibly play. It's a different way of enjoying the game, but if I were to say which ones I think enjoy the game the most out of casual and tournament players, I'd absolutely say tournament players.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Somehow though, serious competition arose from it, and they put a lot more work into future balancing. (Still, the most balanced of them, Melee, still has a lot of balancing issues.)

Hell, certain stages in these games aren't even allowed for tournament fighting.

Since the first game, it's seems they have been trying hard to maintain a balance of the tournament loving crowd, and those who play it because of wacky shenanigans.

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Yes, melee does have balancing issues. But like I said, low tiers and even the one and only rock-bottom character has seen serious high-level tournament play and gotten very far. And melee really isn't the only fighter where the top tiers are the most commonly used characters either.

The banning of stages isn't too strange, nor is it really an issue. :p

Also, Brawl felt like they were trying to push it away from competitive play completely and only towards the casual playing, considering how far they went just to eliminate all advanced tecniques and even added an obligatory random-factor that absolutely everyone - all casual players I've met too - hates: tripping.

Meta was brought up on the basis that the same things that made it strange to go competative still exist within the game, even after it's given a competitive focus. :p

I think it's odd, because you would imagine that balance would be very important for the tournament scene. The more unbalanced a game, the less likely common sense dictates a game would go that far.

Meta-Knights temporary banning shows that this game is far from fixing this problem.

Mind you, I have never said the game shouldn't be, or that it couldn't effectively be, played at a tournament level. Just that this game started off an unlikely canidate for it, and still has a lot of the elements that made it an unlikely candidate.


And I still say the Random Items made it an odd choice, on the basis that's the way the game was meant to be played, yet to play competitively you must eliminate that factor entirely. That almost feels like saying that you can play a game like Bloody Roar competitively, but you can't use your beast mode. (No Idea if that game ever had much a competitive scene mind you. :p)

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Meta was brought up on the basis that the same things that made it strange to go competative still exist within the game, even after it's given a competitive focus. :p

I think it's odd, because you would imagine that balance would be very important for the tournament scene. The more unbalanced a game, the less likely common sense dictates a game would go that far.

Meta-Knights temporary banning shows that this game is far from fixing this problem.

Mind you, I have never said the game shouldn't be, or that it couldn't effectively be, played at a tournament level. Just that this game started off an unlikely canidate for it, and still has a lot of the elements that made it an unlikely candidate.


And I still say the Random Items made it an odd choice, on the basis that's the way the game was meant to be played, yet to play competitively you must eliminate that factor entirely. That almost feels like saying that you can play a game like Bloody Roar competitively, but you can't use your beast mode. (No Idea if that game ever had much a competitive scene mind you. :p)

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Balance is important. And there is enough balance among the top 7 characters that they all see almost equal amount of play, are played by an equal amount of good players and perform almost equally well on average. Yes, that's not even half of the cast, but 7 characters are still more than the amount of different characters I saw being played last time I went to a BlazBlue tournament. And the gap between these 7 most played and the next 5 characters on the tier list isn't all that big either. It's really just that less people play those characters, but there are still top-players who use them well and beat equally well-played top-tier characters with them. So, I really wouldn't say there is a big balance issue that far to be honest. At least 12 characters are certainly "available" at even the top-level. You only really see an issue when comparing top to bottom, yet even then there are weird cases of certain bottom/low characters doing well against high/top characters simply because their moves and style give a kind of coverage that just so happens to be very effective against certain top-level characters. Young Link vs Jigglypuff is a good such example. Jiggly is much better overall, but still struggles against Young Link because of how Young Link works. :greenie:

...and also, I have beaten quite a few equally good players with my Pichu. Just saying. :p

And well, Meta is still a Brawl character, and his temporary banning doesn't really say anything about Melee. :p

And yes, it did start off a bit unlikely, since it wasn't designed with any kind of competition in mind. However, I personally don't find it strange in the least that it is being played on a serious level.

Wow, EoFF too? I'm beyond sick of people raving about Melee's epicness and awesome competitive scene and how it's the best Smash Bros. game. I get enough of that looking at the SSB4 boards on GameFAQs trying to look for news and updates on the game.

...well Ultima Shadow, at least you're not being too extreme on the Brawl hating side of it at least (glares at GameFAQs), and I'm glad to see NeoCracker praising Brawl rather than saying it's the worst Smash Bros. game (and kudos to you for saying it's the best, rather than calling it the worst because it's not as competitive).

Also Bolivar, the group that complains about Brawl are a vocal minority (emphasis on the vocal), and it's still considered to be one of the greatest Wii games by many people. It sold 10 million copies worldwide (~3 million more than Melee).

Anyways, what really bothers me about the Melee praise is how much people overlook just how flawed and glitched the game is, and how much they complain about Brawl for fixing the glitches and exploits. I mean, people actually expected wavedashing to return? The sad part is that people are so attached to Melee that they've hacked Brawl to resemble Melee from the character menu select, all the glitches and exploits including wavedashing, making ledge grabbing harder (and no longer possible to do when facing the opposite direction of the ledge), and even getting rid of Falco and Ganondorf's changes that were implemented to declone them. These people are way too obsessed with Melee and hardly gave Brawl a fair chance. Worst of all is that they think SSB4 is magically going to fix all the "problems" Brawl had. Sakurai said himself that he'd never make another Smash Bros. game that required as much reflexes and focus as Melee (which I'm glad of, since Melee was pretty much the odd one out because it was so fast and characters fell like rocks) and I'm highly doubtful he'd bring back wavedashing and L-cancelling. Sakurai said the above in a Nintendo Everything article.

I'll pull off some things I said to MTKO about why I think the Brawl hate is unjustified:

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Smash Bros. was never meant to be a competitive fighter, and to hate on Brawl because it isn't competitive and it's too simplified is quite unfair. Given elements like all stages having hazards in the original 64 versions (yeah, Dreamland's wind wasn't too bad, but that doesn't make it a completely neutral stage), items always showing up in most single player modes with no option to turn them off, and random factors in attacks like Luigi's Green Missile and Mr. Game & Watch's Judge, it shows that the randomness in Smash Bros is supposed to be a defining feature of the games.

Also, Smash Bros was always supposed to be a simple and easy fighting game for everyone to be able to learn easily, hence why all regular moves are done with one button rather than having two kick and punch buttons and special moves are done from one button rather than having inputs like down forward punch or back forward kick. I know what you're talking about with the changes made in Brawl, especially the highly reduced hitstun making combos harder to do. But in a game series where most people will be doing free for alls and not one on ones, reduced hitstun is pretty much necessary to make sure that someone doesn't get constantly juggled and comboed by other players, and that they have a fair chance of getting out of combos.

Sure, the gameplay of Brawl may have deteriorated to you, but many of those changes were implemented to give everyone a more balanced playing field, rather than favouring the highly skilled ones while leaving the less skilled in the dust. People can play Smash Bros. competitively if they want, but they should really keep in mind that it wasn't designed for that kind of play in the first place. That's why I find all the Brawl hate annoying, since many people hate it for not being as competitive when Smash Bros. wasn't meant to be competitive in the first place.

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Also, Melee was ridiculously glitched. Many of the "advanced techniques" were nothing more than glitches and exploits: wavedashing, shine combos, L-Cancelling, yet people complain that Brawl removed them and call it "less competitive." And then there were the characters (Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Falco, Young Link, Pichu, and Roy, and they practically share all move animations with their originals.) and stages (Battlefield, Yoshi's Story, Dream Land, Yoshi's Island 64, and Fountain of Dreams all use the 1 giant platform and 3 smaller platform layout) that were just riddled with clones. The AI in Melee is just sad: characters doing nothing but jabs, Ganondorf doing nothing but Dark Dive 80% of the time, Luigi never using the Super Jump Punch to recover.

As for the balance, of course every game will be unbalanced in the competitive scene, but Melee is the worst balanced in casual and single player. At least Brawl Ganondorf and 64 Samus could do proficiently in Classic Mode on harder difficulties. Melee Bowser, Kirby, and Pichu? You get slaughtered and you can barely do any damage without taking a heavy beating first. Also, practically every casual player knows in Melee that Pichu and Kirby are ridiculously weak. But not many casual people that play Brawl or 64 would tell you that Ganondorf or Samus is weak.

I guess I'll try to wrap it up. I'm not saying that Melee is a bad game (though I'm tempted to after seeing all the nostalgia-driven savage Melee fanboys on GameFAQs and other sites), but people should really stop worshipping it and saying Brawl is a bad game just because it isn't Melee. Complaints about Brawl from Melee fanboys are just ridiculous (even ranging from "Brawl even did the menu layouts worse than Melee" and "Melee's Adventure Mode was better" when it was just a poorly veiled attempted at making a second Classic mode and calling it an "All New Adventure Mode"). I know I'm being harsh towards Melee (though compared to how harsh Melee fanboys are towards Brawl, I'm practically being a Melee fanboy myself), but people should really stop praising Melee and bashing Brawl as if it was the sole existance of their life.

I would continue this argument Shads, but then we are going to start getting into some odd arguments that are more about the communties that play these games rather then the games themselves, so I'll bow out of the discussion for now. :p

HOwever, one note I will make....

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Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow

You only really see an issue when comparing top to bottom, yet even then there are weird cases of certain bottom/low characters doing well against high/top characters simply because their moves and style give a kind of coverage that just so happens to be very effective against certain top-level characters. Young Link vs Jigglypuff is a good such example. Jiggly is much better overall, but still struggles against Young Link because of how Young Link works.

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The Idea that a low tier, by happen chance of moveset alone, can more easily beat ONE higher tier character is the worst example you could possibly have given about whether a game is balanced or not. ;p

And this other bit is to Evastio. There is a huge competitive smash bro's scene, and Nintendo knows that. I really can't bring myself to be irritated with them for being upset that future installments were actually made to be less competitive. Considering how huge that scene got, it makes perfect sense I think that so much hate would be involved, and were I more into that aspect of the game I'd probably find myself irritated at Brawl as well.

Conveniently though I am not a tournament player, so it ends up mattering little to me. :p

Anyway, bit late in doing this, but on to the next set!

79. Terranigma
      Terrinigma gets onto this list almost through the shear force of it's concept. You are basically tasked with restoring the world to it's proper state, for lack of better word, and that involves slowly transforming the world you see around you into the world more like the real one. This comes with a lot of fun and unique things to see in the world.

      It also comes with a well made combat system with a fair amount of variety. Saddly though, it's nothing very original in that regard, and had it something more then a wonderful concept pushing it forward it could have ended up higher on the list. But hey, it also really had nothing wrong with it either, so it doesn't end up lower. :p

78. Borderlands
      I actually didn't like this game the first time I played it. I ended up not caring about what was going on around me and didn't really see a point in continuing forward with the plot. Though the second time I picked it up, with a different friend, it ended up being a lot of fun. The story was pretty lack luster, though there were a couple of great characters.

      What got fun though was the loot and wank. Not since Diablo 2 had playing for the sake of aquiring newer and nuttier weapons been so fun. And really, that's most of this games appeal for me, other then a fun art direction. Solid Mechanics and acquiring nutty Items. This may sound superficial, and were I to redo this list, it's another that would probably have ended up a couple places lower, but hey, great times anyway. :p

Evastio, I salute you for sticking up for Brawl; I don't dislike the game by any means and certainly not for the reasons the competitive scene gives. I've had a tun of fun playing it, again, the only real issue I have is that every level has to change on you, in a much bigger way than the windblowing of some of the N64 levels.

Can't say much on the latest entries except I'm still bewildered at how many games are coming before FFVII on this list...

I'm more appalled that Bloody Roar and Smash Bros were ranked higher than Street Fighter II :eep:

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

The Idea that a low tier, by happen chance of moveset alone, can more easily beat ONE higher tier character is the worst example you could possibly have given about whether a game is balanced or not. ;p

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Reaction.



In any case, I will admit that melee is a bit unbalanced overall, more so than many other fighting games. However, it is by no means so unbalanced that it's impossible to play with a very, very wide variety of characters at the top-level and still do well. In short, it's unbalanced but not as unbalanced as many seem to think. It's balanced enough for competitive play to see more different characters than many other fighting games do. I can't even really remember what else we argued about and I'm too lazy to go back and look, so let's just leave it at that. :p



And Evastio:

I don't hate Brawl, I just personally think it is inferior to Melee. Aside from the glitches that I won't deny that I have indeed become fond of, I just think Brawl feels less smooth and more chunky in general. I love the melee physics and they make me feel like I can control the character exactly like I want, but when I play Brawl it feels more like I'm just controlling a big, fat block with the weight of a marshmallow. Plus the tripping. It's just my personal preference, but while I can still enjoy playing Brawl, the physics do annoy me and Melee feels much more natural to me. Even if I had never played Melee as a tournament player, I would still have liked melee more. And I'm not really annoyed with the removal of the glitch techniques, since it makes perfect sense they would be removed in the next installment. What does annoy me, however, is when they add things that seriously really only exist to prevent competitive play. Tripping. I have yet to meet a single casual player who has liked this feature. All the features such as less hitstun and repeated airdodges at least fill a function - it creates a different kind of gameplay experience. But tripping adds nothing. It only really exists to add a 100% obligatory random factor that no one even enjoys (not a single person I've ever met at least).

Tripping aside, I can enjoy and have enjoyed Brawl though. I just personally think it has less things that I would desire in a game and so I simply enjoy it to a much less extent.

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Originally Posted by Evastio

Wow, EoFF too? I'm beyond sick of people raving about Melee's epicness and awesome competitive scene and how it's the best Smash Bros. game.

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Don't see a problem with saying a game is awesome and epic and the best in its series. It's an opinion. :p

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Originally Posted by Evastio

The sad part is that people are so attached to Melee that they've hacked Brawl to resemble Melee from the character menu select, all the glitches and exploits including wavedashing, making ledge grabbing harder (and no longer possible to do when facing the opposite direction of the ledge), and even getting rid of Falco and Ganondorf's changes that were implemented to declone them. These people are way too obsessed with Melee and hardly gave Brawl a fair chance.

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If you are referring to Project M, which is what I assume, then there is absolutely nothing "sad" about it whatsoever. No more sad than the amazing mods being made for other games. Project M gives Brawl the physics that many - the makers of Project M included - prefer. And while I admit that wavedashing and l-cancelling are glitches, they are not "flaws" in the eyes of those who use them. To me, and many others, they only add to the overall gameplay experience and makes melee/Project M feel even more "free". Futhermore, project M is much more balanced than any of the actual smash games. Even on a casual level - and yes, Project M can without doubt be enjoyed casually too. Finally, Ganon at least do keep some of his Brawl features. Like his side B is still the Brawl version. Plus the "cloning" isn't an actual problem to begin with. The moves look alike, but the characters still function very differently. The only case I really see as bad cloning is Mario and Dr. Mario. They are the only ones that got a bit too much in common, really. In any case, I'm pretty sure the people behind Project M gave Brawl a fair enough chance, but in the end it just wasn't the game for them. I gave Brawl a fair chance too. I've played it for countless hours, had fun with it. But in the end, I was never able to enjoy it anywhere near as much as I enjoy Melee.

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As for the balance, of course every game will be unbalanced in the competitive scene, but Melee is the worst balanced in casual and single player.

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I would probably have agreed, if it wasn't because of Metaknight. I've seen matches between casual players where one of them picks Metaknight and does nothing but B (tornado) spam until the opponent is in KO-range. And if the opponent is playing a bigger, slower character then there is basically nothing they can do. It's possibly the most spam-friendly move that casual play has ever seen, only slightly rivaled by Marth's f-smash. Aside from that, Brawl might be a bit more balanced to most casual players. But from what I've seen, Metaknight is possibly even more unbalanced in casual than competitive if someone decides to tornado-spam, since there are so few options to counter it unless you have the knowledge about it that mostly tournament players would have.



Finally, one last thing that isn't directed at you or your post. Just something I'm saying: Smash was never meant to see serious competition. But things taking different turns than what was originally intended are not always bad things. And in the case of Melee, I'm personally very, very glad that a competitive scene was created for it.

Other things ranked higher then Street Fighter 2

77. Soul Calibur II (PS2/XBox/Gamecube)
      The first of a set of games that may get Wolf Foaming at the mouth is none other then Soul Calibur 2. Having one of the better fighting game story lines (Which, saddly, isn’t really saying to much. :p) it game characters end up having more of a personality and giving me more of a desire to play as certain characters for more then just move sets. Past that, it comes with some solid gameplay. There really isn’t to much to say about it though. It’s a really well made fighting game.

76. Tekken 5 (PS2)
75. Tekken 3/6 (PS3/360)
      Someone is going to lynch me for placing Tekken over Soul Calirbur (As well as all the other fighters it beats out). But I love these games for thier visual flare. I usually prefer the unarmed styles to armed, so from a visual percpective the Tekken series outweights a lot of other fighters for me.

      In addition, past it’s horrible presentation, the story told throughout the Tekken Game’s isn’t all that bad. I’d argue it’s pretty decent even! Saddly you sometimes have to wait until the next game in the series to get a confirmation of what exactly happened given each character has his own ending.

      Speaking of endings, Tekken’s character endings I find much more enjoyable on a whole then Soul Caliburs, which adds a lot to Single Player experience for me. I mean hell, who didn’t love watching Bryan Fury rip off the Tank’s gun in Tekken 3? That was just glorious. So for superior story and visual appeal, Tekken wins out as my favorite 3D fighter.

I am now joining the group of people who feel you have no taste in gaming... :eep: Or at least no taste in Fighting games... :p

You know, for the most part I agree with you. I am a terrible person for reviewing a fighting game, as my entire joy of the genre comes from visual appeal of punching people and decent controls. :p

There are way too many fighting games in this list. Boring. Reveal more, faster! I wanna get to the good stuff!

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

There are way too many fighting games in this list. Boring. Reveal more, faster! I wanna get to the good stuff!

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Seconded!

I haven't played any of the last 10-15 games so I've been unable to comment!

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I'm more appalled that Bloody Roar and Smash Bros were ranked higher than Street Fighter II :eep:

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Let's not necessarily spin this as a bad thing. I, for one, think NeoCracker would make a fantastic IGN editor.

Fine BoB, now stop your smurfing whining! ‘Oh you have to make sure it’s accurate’ and now it’s ‘oh god your accurate list includes fighting games! Get through this trout already, gosh!’.



74. God of War 1-3 (PS2/PS3)
      Ah god of War, on the PS2 there wasn’t really a game out that had such a level of visual carnage I can recall. I won’t deny this is biggest reason I decided to give the game a try, and remained a reason for enjoying the series as a hole. There was always a level of satisfaction for your horrific murders.

      Of course that alone wouldn’t be enough to put this game on the list. The controls in this game are very well done. Pair that with the large variety of combo’s and powers (Even though the games all seem to have that one spell that overpowers the rest of them. :p) you have some great and varied game play from beginning to end.

      Finally, I enjoy Kratos as a character. He’s a well made Protagonist with a tragic past, and I think his story is told well throughout all three games, regardless of the occasional muck up in the plot. Hell, I even though the Third game was an amazing end to Kratos’s story.


73. Batman: Arkham Asylum (PS3/360)
72. Batman: Arkham City (PS3/360)]
      Okay, Batman is awesome. When I saw a Batman game that was worth a damn, I was all over it. And when I picked them up I was not disappointing, and in fact they surpassed any expectations I had of them.

      That isn’t to say they are without their flaws. For example the Riddler challenges can be fun, but in both games there are some that are so mindlessly easy it feels pointless, and others that stop being a challenge to figure out and just get Frustrating. The games also pose some pretty underwhelming boss fights, with a few exceptions such as Ras in Arkham City.

      However, the main draw is stealthing around like the Goddamn Batman and brutally incapacitating people. Requiring a fair bit of creativity and thought, mixed with good timing and you have both a rewarding and challenging system.

      The Stealth mechanic’s of the game work great, so long as you look past the fact that it would fall apart were your foes smart enough to glance up from time to time, and after short periods just seem to except you’ve moved on and stopped caring about them.

      Joker is also marvelous both games. He is a Show Stealer, and wonderful for it. Him and Harley are both fun and threatening both games, and paired with the other villains it creates a wonderful atmosphere. A personal favorite is Scarecrow, his Nightmare scenes being my favorite bits of both games.

God of War is the western equivalent of Dragon Quest, in that it takes a few elements and implements them to that cross-section on the graph chart where the accessibility line intersects with depth. David Jaffe put it like this - the original was inspired by Devil May Cry and Ico. The game doesn't live up to the combat of Devil May Cry, much less the puzzles of Ico. But it has better puzzles than Devil May Cry and certainly more visceral and fluid combat than Ico. These are implemented with a consistently impressive art design and and an enjoyable story. These ingredients make up for a winning recipe and certainly one of my favorite series. We've had a lot of imaginative indie games, but I still think God of War III was the most artistic game I've seen this generation.

The Arkham games... I have Arkham City on Steam and just want to get a controller to play this game via big picture mode. The first game really reminded me of Metal Gear Solid. You're on this one island, it's fallen into the wrong hands, and you take it back over this 15-20 hour journey where you master a breadth of gameplay mechanics and endure some trippy trout along the way. Very excellent, very surprising game. It's particularly rewarding if you're a comic fan. I like how they actually took Batman's moves in the panels of the comics and actually turned it into a video game. They also have the best combination for Bruce Wayne and the Joker ever when it comes to voice acting.

Scarecrow was in Arkham City? Huh. I did all the storylines, collectables, sidequests and New Game Plus and never came across him. :(

Also, I echo the voice acting tributes. They were fantastic. Every person I've seen play Joker has been awesome, but for me the 'perfect' Joker has always been the animated variation. Everyone else plays the Joker, while the animated Joker is the Joker.

No he wasn't, I was saying his bit in Asylum was my favorite part of the entire series. :p

I did very much enjoy Arkham City. I thought it was a superbly crafted game. I didn't actually get to finish it though as I borrowed it from a friend and he demanded it back rather quickly. If anyone wants to send my their copy then feel free. I'll PM you my address.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Everyone else plays the Joker, while the animated Joker is the Joker.

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The fact that he's also Luke Skywalker is pretty mindblowing.

Well, good a time as any to move on to the next set!

71. Legend of Legaia
      This is a game I expect to get a lot of people scratching their heads at, but to you I give you a pre-emptive ‘Piss Off’, cause this game is good fun. Though I guess I’ll address the issues of the game right off the back.

      It has a Magic system that is some what limited in it's use. While the act of acquiring magic by absorbing certain enemies is fun, and all your spells have a secondary effect to go along with damage or healing as they level is a fun touch, most of your spells end up seeing little to no use. So a fun system, but mostly you walk away feeling there was some untapped potential there.

      The Draw combat wise is the ability to string together a variety of fun Martial Arts combos. While you'll find that through stretches of the game you'll be re-using the same combo set ups, it is only for stretches at a time. But still, it suffers a bit from repetitiveness, though it's not so bad to pull one out of the game.

      It also comes with a solid Story, with none of your three characters feeling unimportant. Though the atmosphere of various area's makes up for most of the story's joy, as the story itself is pretty simple on a whole. The story ends up being driven more by individual goals then an over arching plot most of the time, but the game makes that work out well. It's satisfying when your characters resolutions come to be.

70. Penny Arcade Series (PC/PS3)
      These games rank so high mostly based on how so very funny they are. If you enjoy the humor of Penny Arcade, there are a large amount of Laughs to be had here. You see all your favorite characters from the comic, the jokes are on par with the ones produced in the comics, and to top it off the Penny Arcade guys show themselves to be great writers.

      In this bizarre and silly world, you still find yourself invested in the characters and what’s happening to them. Pair t hat with Zyboyd’s game great Battle System used in the third game, this is a game that’s pretty much guarantee to bring you at least a little bit of enjoyment.

69. Radiant Historia (DS)
      If there was ever any doubt that the JRPG genre still had some steam, look no further then Radiant Historia. Given the power to hop back and forth between two time lines, you experience the different consequences of possible decisions in an attempt to discover a path that results in the end of the world being prevented.

      A huge cast of Characters paired with one of the more unique stories, or at the very least a way of telling the story, is a great way to keep you invested. The combat is nothing amazing, but at the same point solid enough to keep you interested. Any RPG fan with a DS should get this game.

68. Illusions of Gaia (SNES)
      This is a game that would greatly benefit from an improved script, as the one given is pretty bare bones giving you little more then needed to tell the story. That said, the story being told is great, and even with the brief dialogues you get the characters all manage to have a fair amount of personality.

      One reason I enjoy the story behind this so much is what it is you had been fighting to achieve. True, Will’s reason to journey was to find out what happened to his father, there is a grander objective to be fulfilled, the restoration of the world as it should be. In the end, while Terranigma was the stronger game from a mechanical perspective, the world and presentation of Gaia did a far better job at allowing you to feel the grand scale of your journey.

      That said, the game play is still great. Switching between Will, Freedan, and Shadow gives you a variety of game play options that keep the game from feeling stale beginning to end.


This is likely the only set of 4 games I’ll have from here on out. :P

I always see those PA games sitting there on the PS Store and consider them before moving on. It's like a tradition.

The third one isn't on PSN, the only way I know to get it is over Steam, but the third is easily the best of the lot.

Anyway, on to the next games!

67. Persona 4: Arena (PS3/360)
      This was one of my favorites in the realm of Fighting Games. The biggest reason for this was how invested I was in the story the game told. I was hesitant on the inclusion of Labrys at first given it was a new character getting added into the P4 story, but I wasn't dissapointed. Her backstory was heartbreaking, and she was great as a character.

      And I'll be honest, I have no clue how balanced this game is considered, as I didn't really keep up on it after finishing off the story, something that happans commonly with me and fighting games. That said eveyr character can be fun to play as, though I was kind of sad I was awful with Naoto. :(

66. Borderlands 2
      This is something that a lot of people have said, but Borderlands two is everything the first game was but better. Gameplay was better, the guns were better, the customization was better, and the challange was higher. Most importantly, however, was the story.

      It may have been pretty basic for the most part, but well told. Where this game shines however is Handsome Jack. The new cast members are all great mind you, but dear god Jack is amazing as this games villain. For those who played the game, you'll know what I mean when I say there are two points in the game where things start becoming personal between you and Jack, being Wild Life Foundation and The Bunker.

      I give all the props I can to GearBox for seriously upping their game hear and putting in more effort then they needed to for this game to be good.

Still playing through Borderlands 2. Somehow, even though I love the game, I'm just absolutely addicted to Portal 2's co-op. I swear, as much as I want to play Borderlands 2 and others, I always find myself in a skype call with my friend playing Portal 2. Damn you Valve.

I'm a bit late in updating this, I was a bit busy with life and finishing up the Babe Tournament. But, we return with the final Fighting Game entry on this list!

65. Blazblu: Calamity Trigger
64. Blazblu: Continuum Shift

      This, to me, is the fighting game that all other fighting games should strive to be, at least in terms of quality. Solid gameplay, every character is viable, and it has an absolutely wonderful visual presentation. Each character is radically different from the others as well, made in part possible by their special attack set. One guy magnetizes his opponents, one controls a puppet along with himself Simultaneously, one person alters the course of projectiles, it’s a blast no matter who you have.

      More then anything though, Blazblu has the best story of any Fighting game I have ever played, along with the best method of presenting it I have ever seen. The Sequel did the best job with this, revealing if your choices were one of the possible futures shown by The Continuum Shift, or if it’s the true story.

      And then there are the joke endings, which are just amazingly hilarious. A personal favorite being the developers beating the Slashfic writers to the punch and making Jin seem like the creepy Rapist stalking Ragna. As far as a single player experience goes, there really isn’t a better fighting game out there then Blazblu.

Yes ! The Blazblue games ! :jess:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeoCracker

there really isn’t a better fighting game out there then Blazblu.

---

*cough* Guilty Gear series

It's been three days, man. I don't think Blazbu's gonna get much more intense debate thrown about. ;)

I"ve been busy and have to much to do to update. I'll do it tomorrow. :p

Also Wolf Is wrong.

Best fighting game series is Samurai Shodown.

The games on Neo's list which I have played: 22 games
144. Twisted Metal 2 (PS1)
142. Vigilante 8 (PS1/n64)
TM and V8 were far too similar so I really only played a demon of the latter.
133. Mortal Kombat 3 (SNES)
132. Street Fighter 2 (SNES)
I love MK3 introducing the cyborgs and brutalities. I only played SF2 at arcades.
129. Final Fantasy VII*
People here may know me as a rabid FF7 fan and one who endorses the compilation.
120. Wild Arms 3 (PS2)*
I became a fan of the ARMs series after playing and subsequently owning WA3.
109. Tales of Destiny (PS1)*
I have also played ToD and it's sequel though after their initial rental, I was never able to find them again.
107. Legaia 2: Dual Saga (PS2)*
Unlike WA, I purchased Dual Saga due to regret at not owning Legaia when I had the chance.
104. Legend of Dragoon (PSX)*
Dragoon was and is an awesome game even if the encounter rate is disturbing and the process is slow.
97. Killer Instinct (SNES)
The KI series I've only ever played infrenquently at arcades.
95. Starfox 64 (N64)
When I originally played it, I wasn't much a fan of simulated flight, though I later began to play games like AceCombat.
93. Arc the Lad: Twilight of the Spirits (PS3)*
It's an awesome game in my opinion. One of many that I lost track of for a while and was delightfully surprised when I found it again.
92. Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete (PS1)*
I used the Soap in the men's locker room... I never had the opportunity to use it in the lady's shower room. The game had a cool story too although I never liked the main protagonist's appearance.
91. Bloody Roar (PSX)
Arcaded. I've always liked the shapeshifting totem-morphing aspect. I kind of think this particular series could have worked better as a celshaded 2d game since the graphics didn't really do the characters justice.
90. Twisted Metal 3 (PSX)
Eh.
85. Soul Calibur 3 (PS2)*
I loved being able to customize my own characters and only all too happy the feature returned later.
80. Super Smash Brothers Brawl (Wii)*
77. Soul Calibur 2 (PS2)*
Not that there's anything wrong with Heihachi, but would rather have played as Spawn or Link. Unfortunately, I didn't own an XBOX or Gamecube.
76. Tekken 5 (PS2)
75. Tekken 3 (PS1)
My favorite character persistently remains Hwoarang although I prefer his Tekken 4 Korean military outfit.
71. Legend of Legaia (PSX)*
One of my favorite parts of the original was a mini-game styled like roshambo (reminded me of the Gold Saucer Wonder Square game, only faster).

Some titles I have minimal experience with. *Marks my favorite games on the list.

I could never get into Samurai Showdown myself. :p

Anyway, somewhat brief with this description, but smurf it, here's the next games!

63. Disgaea 4 (PS3)
62. . Disgaea 3 (PS3)

      Having not play the first, and not really being impressed by the second, these two games were absolutely wonderful. These games really are wonderful experiences, even though I don’t have an interest the vast majority of the Post Game stuff.

      It was a hard call to put Disgaea 3 over 4, but where Absence of Justice wins out is I was much more invested in it’s cast of characters. Mao and his Mad Scientist vibe wins out over Vavlatorez the Vampire loving sardines and refusing to drink blood, though Both are awesome leads. Past them, the Butler in 4 is the only character that I think keeps up with the cast of 3.

      The Game play is varied greatly due to all the different classes and monsters you can make, and the classes are almost all fun to play with, given a few exceptions. Overall, you can’t go wrong with these two games if you can enjoy the goofy nature of the stories told.

      Also, just as a side note, a personal favorite moment of this series was the Home Economics Teachers voice replacing another characters inner monologue from Disgaea 3.

Edit: ANd because I forgot to include this info.....

      I also want to note, Disgaea 3 was one of the first PS3 games I had played, if not the first. Twas a great introduction to the system for me. Though, there is something that bothers me a lot with the Disgaea sereis.

      That would be the effect tiles. In premise I don't mind them, but both these games suffer from the last few dungeons are more of a puzzle game then an SRPG, and those maps bother the ever loving smurf out of me. I am here to play an SRPG, stop making me solve these smurfing puzzle maps!

You really like fighting games, huh. I liked this list better when it had variation so it was more likely to have a game I could discuss. >=(

It's odd looking at this list actually, as I'm surprised how many fighting games ended up on this, yet I don't see myself as a big Fighting game guy.

Most of these are on this list due to playing them with some friends and having a good old time more so then enjoyment of the games themselves. Perhaps I would have been better off telling tales of the silly things that happen while playing them. :p (Blazblu is the only series, as well as P4, I can say I truly enjoyed regardless of friends to play with though. :p)

SO, I shall give you one!

This was with Tekken 6. Me and my friend Brian came to the conclusion that Marduk was a woman beater, don't know why, just looked like one. After a few days we realized something. Whenever we played with Mardock, he would ALWAYS win if the other player was a female character, and ALWAYS lose if it was a Male opponent. It was smurfing priceless. XD

ANd besides, that was the last fighting game anyway, so meh. :p

Yay!

Looking forward to games I can comment on!

Despite being a big SRPG fan and a hardcore PS3 gamer when these came out, I never got the Disgaea games. I guess I just assumed that I needed to play the originals first. At the same time, I am a little put-off by the uber-anime style that modern JRPGs embrace. It's not like FFVII where the characters are inspired by anime, but still rendered in a video game; I evangelize Japanese games, but these are just too Japanese for me.

Here's a game you may have played BoB!

61. Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past (SNES)
      Another one of my earlier experiences
gaming, Link to the Past was a blast to play. I'd played this one not long
after the original game on the NES.

      The games controls are all solid, and
I don't think I've ever had an issue with it. You get a lot of fun little
toys to play around with, solving the different dungeons and handling
a variety of enemies.

      The Dungeons are varied and all have
a unique and fun feel, never feeling like it retreads the same ground
more then once. Considering the amount of dungeons in this game, that is
an accomplishement.

      The one real problem I can find with this
game is the story and characters. The story isn't bad, but mostly bare
bones, and you never really see any real personality to any character in
the game. But hey, everything else is great, so it still gets this place.


60. Makai Kingdom (PS2)
      In the realm of the NIS strategy RPG,
never had they gotten as right as they did With Makai Kingdom. My favorite
of the NIS SRPG's, I don't know if I have ever laughed as much at one of
thier titles.

      Overlord Zeta is an absolute riot,
with a huge amount of memorable lines, a personal favorite being
"Disperse my Loyal Battle Monkeys. Do my bidding and bust a cap!" Between
him and every other character you will be laughing constantly as time goes
by. The humour does take the forefront, but that doesn't stop you from getting
invested in the story and fates of the characters. So long as you have no
issues with NIS's over the top worlds and story's, this is a great story.

      And the combat is my favorite of these
games. Dropping the tile set up for a distance and area based movement, they
don't have the damned colored tiles which I loved. This game dropped the
worst aspect about the other titles, and I love it for doing so. Check this
out if you have the chance, it will not dissapoint.

*Cracks knuckles and prepares to type*

I still regard A Link to the Past as my second favourite game of all time. I remember being bought this game for my tenth birthday. It was a Tuesday morning and I had school that day. I played the game for around ten minutes before I had to leave. In that time, I remember finding the secret entrance to the castle and meeting my Uncle to gain the sword. I couldn't concentrate on anything else all day...

I own every copy of 'Super Play' magazine... which was dedicated to the Super Nintendo. The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past was reviewed in issue 2 and received a favourable score of 93%. This magazine ran for exactly four years. Even in the very last issues, they had people expressing love... and requesting help. It was just a special game.

I have played the original Legend of Zelda and it is clear that ALTTP was Miyamoto's true vision of this game... and his life around Kyoto. He wanted a game where exploration was the key. He combined this perfectly with an action element which, in a 2D gaming world, will never be surpassed.

It was perfectly balanced. A tightly compacted gem of absolute genius design. It wasn't a particularly large world... you could walk from one end to the other in a couple of minutes. But there was so much included in this limited space, it was the first gaming world I was ever really lost in.

I very rarely use the word "timeless" in reference to computer games because by its very nature, the world of yesterday in reference to gaming, will always be dated. But... this game is now over twenty years old and it is still finding fans today. I can also guarantee, it will still find fans in years to come.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Here's a game you may have played BoB!

---

Boy, is this awkward...

Dammit BoB. Just Dammit.

59. Golden Sun (GBA)
58. Golden Sun: The Lost Age (GBA)
      You know, it's hard for me to say why I enjoy Golden
Sun as much as I do. Not that it does anything wrong mind you, but it's not really exceptional
in any way. Still though, it does everything it does well. Combat is fun, story is good, and
your characters are all decently written. Doesn't really do to much unique in terms of gameplay
other then the Djinni attacks and cool downs and resetting, which is good fun.

      Of course the games only reall problem, I feel, comes in
with the system of actually setting Djinni on your characters. The problem is that you are
given the option to create weird combinations of Djinni on the different characters, but in
the end there isn't really a benefit to doing this, as the optimal path always seems to be
leaving each person with their default element of Djinn.

      But regardless, there is a lot of fun to be had with a
variety of spells, weapons that all offer different effects, and the versatile use of
Djinni abilities. As well as some nice looking graphics for the GBA. A great game to check
out if you are an RPG fan, not so much if you don't enjoy the Genre though, as the game
doesn't really give you anything all that new.

No love for Golden Sun? :cry:

57. Catherine (PS3/360)
      I am not really a fan of games that are purely Puzzle in nature, leaning more towards action or RPG games with puzzle elements to the dungeons, such as Zelda. That said, I have never had more fun with a Puzzle game then I have with Catherine. Being a game well
outside of my normal genre tastes make it hard to say why I enjoy this one while so many others tend to bore me, but I'll do my best.

      The levels themselves are all very imaginative and creepy, matching well with the story surrounding each instance. It also comes with disturbing atmosphere and feelings of
urgency to finish each area. This gives the game a feeling of purpose that drives you to solve each area.

      The puzzles themselves are fun and challenging, and I love learning how the bizarre physics of the game work. After a while, things that would have original thought counter intuitive become the necessary steps to solving the levels, forcing you to think of all sorts
of bizarre strategies in the time limits of each stage.

      The story is both good and bad. I loved what they tried to do, giving you a story you just don't see in video games. Where it lacked a bit to me though was how much I disliked
Katherine (The burnette one). She was so passive aggressive she did nothing but irk me, so it was hard to get invested with Vincents feelings for her. Catherine, on the other hand, I actually though had a very reasonable
and sensible view on things (Well, up until the crazy girlfriend thing, but I can't really get into why that doesn't bother me, so I'll end my discussion on the story here. :p)

      Pair all of this with some pretty good endings, the Catherine ending being hilarious as all hell, and you have a pretty solid and unique game.

56. Katamari Damacy Series (PS2/PS3/360)
      Okay, this game is silly as all smurf. It is outrageous, what your doing makes no logical sense, and this game is absolutely wonderful for it. Hell, it's even challenging to get the high rankings
in all of the games levels.

      This game series makes it on my list if only because of the satisfaction of rolling balls of screaming children into other screaming children. A joy that can be hand in any of the games entries.
The game has a unique visual style, creative and challenging levels, and over the top humor that keeps you laughing and invested. A personal favorite bit being anything from RoboKing n Katamari Forever. Seriously, check these games out, they are incredible.

I like Camelot, but never got into the Golden Sun games.

Katamari is wonderful, though, glad it made it on the list! ^_^

55. Super Mario RPG: LEgend of the Seven Stars (SNES)
      When I first saw this game I was floored that this was happening. Still early in my gaming life, there were few games I had experience when picking this up. In my mind, it had to be one of the greatest ideas ever to combine my joy of RPG's and Mario into one package. And it did not disappoint me. This game was all kinds of awesome.

      To start with the timing set up used for it's battle system was great. There really wasn't anything like it back on the SNES. Pair that with a wide variety of abilities and changeable party members? And the ability to select a power up each level? This was everything my younger self could have wanted, and even now in my older and far more
cynical years, this game is still great to play, though extremely easy.

      ANd the story and characters are all great. I loved seeing peach in an actual combat role for the first time in Mario. I loved getting Bowser in my group, and was constantly laughing about the silly nature of his dialogue, being both the King Koopa himself prone to anger, but hilariously cry baby like and sensitive. After all the praise it makes you wonder why it's not higher on the list.

      But sadly, even when younger this game wasn't all that challenging outside of a couple of areas, and as fun as the story was there wasn't really all that much to it. So, while it's a great romp for what it is, it's more simplistic nature keeps it down for me.

54. Chrono Cross (PSX)
      Chrono Cross is a game that has some issues. Some really big issues. Not the smallest of which is that in it's massive cast, effectively two of your characters are relevant for more then five minutes of the plot. Still though, the game ends up doing a lot right regardless of this. So this is what I'll yammer on about.

      It's not my favorite battle system, and when I played it first I disliked it, almost to the point I didn't want to keep playing. However, after a while I adjusted to the system, and grew to like it quite a bit if only because it was both unique and very functional, even if the limited amount of character unique elements and pathetic amount of Dual Techs
was sad. Still, the character elements and stats kept who you brought along with you relevant in terms of gameplay.

      And while at times the execution and presentation is bad, there are still a lot of good characters
and an intriguing story I feel is a good follow up to Trigger. In the end, it does enough right to overcome it's more

And to note, Atelier Ayesha comes out today, so I may not update this for a bit. :p

Considering the generally high reviews given for Golden Sun, it surprises me that I have yet to play it.

The same can be said for Super Mario RPG. I might see if I can pick up a copy online.

I think I've played Chrono Trigger, although I'm not sure - it was some time ago.

EDIT: I've also played Golden Axe. So clearly you're just putting in the wrong words.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I think I've played Chrono Trigger, although I'm not sure - it was some time ago.

---

There is so much wrong with this sentence.

I dunno! I mean, it had a frog and robot, I think...

You know, I'm about to re-edit my list JUST so there won't be a single game on it BoB has played. O_O

Too late! Most of the games I haven't played in your list have been fighting games (which I'm not interested in) or Nintendo games (my first Nintendo system were a GBA & DS... in something like 2010).

EDIT: If I were you, though, I'd wait to see if I've played the games you put in your top 20 rather than worrying that I haven't played what you feel is the 50-somethingth best game you've ever played. ;)

SMRPG is maximum fantastic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pike

SMRPG is maximum fantastic.

---

I've just realised they never released it over in the UK for the SNES.

That leaves me with two options:

1) Buy an imported US SNES copy of the game for around £70.00 and hope it works on my adapter.
2) Download it on the Wii Virtual Console for around £6-7?

Hmmm... *Dusts off Wii*

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.pnghttp://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4203/mio4.pnghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8266/rydia5.png
"Super Mario RPG is only 55th
on the list? That's blasphemy!"










http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.pnghttp://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.pnghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3152/rider4.png
So you like Super Mario RPG, Rydia?










http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.pnghttp://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4203/mio4.pnghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.png
"Well 'DUH'! Of course I do. It's
only like... the best game ever!"











http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.pnghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.png
"So... are you saying that Super Mario RPG
is your number one favourite game then?"










http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.pnghttp://img227.imageshack.us/img227/4203/mio4.pnghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5144/rydia1.png
"Yes! It has the most adorable
characters, charming areas, the most
catchy songs, hilarious moments and
most awesome gameplay of all games!"










http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.pnghttp://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.pnghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3152/rider4.png
Didn't Bernkastel say her favourite
was Dark Souls too? Now I'm kinda curious;
which games are everyone else's favourites?
If I were to pick, I'd probably have to say
the Assassin's Creed games. I love those.










http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5144/rydia1.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.pnghttp://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.png
"Hmmm... now that's a hard one. But
I'm actually a fan of both Odin Sphere
and Muramasa: the Demon Blade myself.
I just really like the 2D gameplay and
the storytelling in those two so much.
Vanillaware are such great developers."










http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8266/rydia5.pnghttp://img31.imageshack.us/img31/4130/rider2.pnghttp://img121.imageshack.us/img121/1598/mio3q.png
http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1221/kosmosb.png
"Tetris moved me deeply. I will never forget
that moment when the Line Piece finally
found a place where he could fit in, only
to have himself and everyone around him
disappear in a flash. It was just too sad.
R.I.P, Line Piece. I shall never forget you!"

Super Mario RPG is really awesome. A good balance of Action and RPG, a story that really breaks Mario tradition (with both Peach and Bowser fighting alongside Mario), lots of side quests/mini games, and loads of funny moments.

Also:

I played A Link To The Past. Awesome game. I never thought I'd have a chance to play through as much as I did since I didn't personally own an SNES, but I frequently visited my cousin who owned it and the game.
I own both installments of Golden Sun. I've only played through the first portion of either... well, I may have played through more of the first... I'm pretty confident I never found time to beat it. I suppose I could check...

I own Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross. I never approved of the central character Serge. I always felt his design was bland (there's a "intended artwork" with three alternate versions of Serge. His final design is included in the mix but it somehow looks cooler than how it translated into the game.) I wish Guile had been given a more significant role since finding out he's supposed to be Magus. I played Cross before Trigger so making a connection between those characters was especially impossible for me. I like games that offer a plethora of playables but I get mixed feelings when they have no real story of their own. What's the point of having a character if they're just another pawn? At least in Radiata Story, you get to see that most of the characters you'll recruit have stories before you recruit them even if you don't get to see them move forward.
I also had no clue there were Dual Techs in this game. Without a magazine to point me to who to use, I never would have found them. You would think that the two characters you're pretty much constantly forced to have around (Serge and Kid) would have a Dual Tech. But their only shared tech is split with Sprigg and she has to become Slash for its use. How smurfing ridiculously convoluted.

Taking a break from Atelier Ayesah, I bring you Part 2 of the Worst games list!

9. Halo Franchise
I'll start by saying, I am aware that I am not the kind of person that this game is targeted towards, given my tendency to prefer single player experiences. However, there are things in Halo that bother me. The big one being that it didn't really change anything about the genre outside of allowing for console shooters to be played online from a console. And for that, were I looking soley at Halo 1 here, I probably wouldn't have put this here. The problem is though Halo's gameplay isn't that good compared to other shooters out there. Halo 1-3 all felt rather lacking when compared to games like Call of Duty or Battle Field, and those are games I don't enjoy either.

None of them have good stories, though Halo both has a bad story and is piss easy as far as campaigns go. So even as far as Shooters go the games single player experience is lacking, and it neither plays as well as others, nor do I like any of the games art design. The popularity of this franchise baffles me.


8. Final Fantasy X/II
I really can't decide which game I dislike more. FF 2 is here for it's god aweful leveling system and lack luster gameplay. FF X is here because the entirety of the cast are terrible, Auron being the exception. It's hard to rate X as worse on the basis that it has a fantastic battle system, though on the same note the game is so easy it leaves all of the possibilities the system had in the dust. If I had to say X would be worse because of that, but it's my list so I don't!


7. L.A. Noire
I feel kind of bad for putting this on the list, since it was an interesting take on bringing a point and click style adventure game into that perspective. The problem is how frustrating the game can get. Not for difficulty or controls, but the execution of pressing for information. An early example was one of teh first cases that involved a pair of glasses. I immediately caught on that she was lying about the glasses, but until I keep pressing different options I can't call her out on the glasses. It also created a problem in that it was way to easy to tell a person is lying, but that was bound to happen when they told thier actors to act like they were lying.

The other thing that killed it was I cared nothing about anyone in this game. So when I couldn't get into the games cast, all I was left with was a frustrating Point and Click adventure. The game ends up offering absolutely nothing for me.


6. Xenogears
There was one accusation about me going in wanting to hate this game, but I actually am depressed I don't like this game. I will say, I can see a lot of good in this game. It has a couple of very well written characters with Fei and Citan, and a lot of great build up. However, there are three things that just kill this game for me.

Firstly, I believe it was Mirage who said this though I may be wrong, but this game takes way to much advantage of the players suspension of Disbelief. Vanderkaums arrogance was way beyond a guy stuck in his ways, that kid making it to the second round of a martial arts tournament, I could go on, but I think you get the point.

Secondly is the dungeon and monster design. Dear god, these are the worst dungeons I have ever seen an any RPG. Especially the ones where everything looks the same, and there is no map to refer to. It gets dull and boring. And the monster design isn't so much bad, as they re-use a the same desing a lot. This is some of the least variety I have ever seen in a game.

Worst of all, none of the games build up pays off. I'm sure no one will deny how sucky it was Rico's entire story got axed from the game, but this is a problem you see throughout the entire game. So much trout got cut, and this game suffers for it.

5. Dante’s Inferno
This game infuriates the living smurf out of me. I have never in my life seen something so shameless as this game. In fact, I don't think they actually developed a game. They sent a ninja to Sony to steal the source code for God of War, and what they did is ported the game and replaced the audio and visual files for the game. That was all the work that went into this game. This game is reprehensible in the fact they didn't even try to spice up the experience, or even add something trivial to it. It's as if the developers just didn't give a smurf.

Wow oh wow.

Yeah, this set isn't going to be making me any friends. ;P

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha.

Halo: The Halo games are much more fun multiplayer than single-player. But then again, so are pretty much all shooters. Anyhow, I disagree about the gameplay being worse than CoD and BF. It's certainly less realistic and lacks the same intensity, but I personally find the less serious, dark and realistic gameplay and atmosphere pretty refreshing. It might sound a bit strange, but to me Halo is a lot like what a "Super Mario FPS" would have been like. And I kinda like it. :p You can jump around like in a plattformer, there are many strange powerups and bonuses that you don't see in other shooters and some of the weapons are just more pure fun in their functions. Though I've spent pretty much all my Halo-time playing offline multiplayer on forged maps.



FFX: I agree that Auron is the only particualry interesting character in FFX, though I wouldn't say the rest of the cast is very far below what's "average". I still find them slightly below average, however. But I've seen much worse. The gameplay is great for the most part though and the main thing I liked about FFX. And luckily, we europeans got all the challange we could hope for with the addition of the Dark Aeons and Penance. :monster:



Xenogears: Here I'm one of the few who agree with pretty much everything... except I can actually remember playing over 6 even worse games. :p But yes, Xenogears let me down so much after getting my hopes up from all the praise it was getting. And the dungeon design was really the worst.

Congratulations, Neocracker :beer:. You did it. I didn't think it was possible, but you managed to offend the entire forum in one post.

Actually, I'm not too mad. I understand why Dante's Inferno is the most disturbingly shameless ripoff, arguably ever. But I think at the end of the day you have to ask yourself "are you enjoying this game?" It was God of War for Catholics, and I'm a God of War fan, I'm Catholic, so it was a really solid title in my eyes. I also think FFII and X are amazing games, but I completely understand and appreciate why others do not.

LA Noire... it was a cool game, I didn't realize it could disappoint enough to be on this list, though.

Xenogears, I'm obviously with you on. It's actually one of my favorite stories in an RPG, but the dungeons and lack of meaningful combat are a sore spot for me. Great story and bad combat takes it out of "legendary" staus for me, but the inclusion of the platforming possibly brings it down even lower. Even the story is hard to give it a grade, because the unfinished nature of the game just earns it an INComplete.

Halo is really weird. I can understand how playing any game with your friends will result in a good time. Especially with the Forge features they've iterated over the years. So I understand where Ultima Shadow is coming from. But as a dedicated FPS fan, on PC and console, it's never vibed with me. The bullet sponge mechanics, where it takes an entire clip to destroy a target's armor before you actually start hurting them, seems like the complete opposite of what a shooter is supposed to be about to me. I suppose it could come down to preference, but I've never found it compelling. Then there's the graphics and animation. I just can't fathom why Bungie are considered in the top tier of developers when Halo 3 (+ODST) and Reach looked like last generation games to me, at the very least they were vastly outclassed by their contemporaries.

No experience with LA Noire. No experience with Xenogears but I'm a fan of Xenosaga and if that was inspired by Xenogears, it gives me hope for the game. I plan to own it... eventually.

I find it difficult to devote all of my attention to the older FF games, so I have limited experience with FF2. FFX my only real gripe would be Tidus and Yuna's relationship. Just annoying... and Rikku once she's a party member (only gets more annoying in X-2)

No experience with Dante's Inferno though the concept is intriguing enough I would play it if I owned the system for it.

I've only played Halo a few times with my cousins. Not really the game for me. Pretty graphics, some neat weapons... I never really felt excited by the experience though.

Now that I've pissed on a bunch of people at this forum, back to the list as normal!

53. Atelier Iris 2 (PS2)
52. Atelier Iris (PS2)
      I have always liked crafting in games, so it was somewhat natural that I took to the Atelier series when Iris was released. It's a game who, more then any other I"ve played at the time, has a focus on crafting. Best part is how well done the games crafting system was. You could create the same items with different ingredients to alter the effects and strength. It's always refreshing when a games core mechanic works so well. The battle system was a bit basic, but fluid and came with some fun aspects.

      The stories in these two games are somewhat simplistic, but are carried by a more light hearted and charming tone, speckled with the occasional dark moments. Nothing huge, but it didn't really need to be. The game came with a fun atmosphere, and a lot of fun and creative designs. It was a game that tried and succeeded to do RPG's a bit differently then we were use to, and I love seeing innovation work out so well.

51. Wild Arms 4 (PS2)
      Even though I do enjoy Wild Arms 3, I admit it was a pretty low point for the series, bogged down by to many flaws that overshadowed the good in it. So I was a bit weary of Wild Arms 4 at first, especially since they seemed to jump the gun and completely revamp everything about the series. And while in a way it did, changing a lot of the feel and atmosphere of the series, I can't say this was a bad thing. They put more of an emphasis on the sci-fi tone over the Old West feel, though that element was still present, and it turned out to be a blast.

      It used a hex grid for the battle system, giving you a bit more position then a normal JRPG, but not as much as you would see in an SRPG, and managed to create a fun and new battle system that hadn't been seen before. While not the best story in the series, it was very well made and as usual you could easily get behind your characters and enjoy them. A favorite moment is when you are fighting the 'crimson noble', and Arnoud (Sure this is spelled wrong) manages to pull himself together enough to save your asses. Best part of that? Even he managed to overcome the fear and save you, you still see the impact the event has on his psyche, as he pretty much breaks down on the spot. So if you like the earlier games in this series, don't be put off by the changes, as the game still stands up great on it's own.

No Final Fantasy game is the Worst Game Evah. No, not even FFVIII.

That's because, even if the characters and story and gameplay are a mess, you can count on Grade A music and nice graphics. I mean, FF8 might make me want to tear my hair out, but at least it's pretty to look at and listen to. That's more tahn you can say for a lot of games.

And Xenogears? I'll agree with terrible dungeon design. That's it. As sad as it as that Rico's arc went nowhere, that was almost an isolated incident. All the important stuff had cool payoffs. I mean, even if you had already figured out Fei was Id, how awesome was it when the party finally found out? Goodbye Solaris.
And then it was followed up by a very heartwarming scene between Fei and Elly.

But ya know, I can see why Babel's Tower might make some people forget al that. I avoid replaying Xenogears simply because of that level.

Esmeralda was introduced and ignored until one optional dungeon end game, which barely added anything at all.

Maria's entire arc started and ended when you first meat her to her first mech fight.

We will not get into Pupu.

Billy's Arc was good, but was also short lived and not really expanded up at all after the initial arc finishes.

And I have a bias against any Romance whose entire basis is "We were destined to be together because destiny!". It cheapens the entire thing for me. :p

Anyway, before I beat this dead horse more....


50. Kingdom Hearts (PS2)
49. Kingdom Hearts 2 (PS2)
      I admit the only reason I ever played this game when I was younger is my friends had it. I thought it was far to silly an Idea, mixing Final Fantasy and Disney. Though when I did play the game had won me over, so I was quick to make sure to pick up Kingdom Hearts 2 when it eventually came out, and I sit here anxciously awaiting KH3.

      That said, the big selling point is a fluid and fun battle system. I never had trouples going between the menu navigation in the real time enviroment of the game. It gave you a lot of options in combat, which was wonderful given the different ways you could develope Sora in terms of combat prowess. It kind of sucked you were only ever given one option at a time to replace one of your party members, but eh, they were there for support anyway. Well, except Jack, that dude was a beast.

      It has a fun story that is for the most part pretty straight forward, though there are a lot of side elements to the plot that are fun and appriciated, keeping the story from getting dull. It does come with some bizzare hic ups, for example I still have no clue as to why Xehonort's Heartless pretended to be Ansem. But again this is kind of small. A few small things like this, combined with a relative ease, with a few exceptions, keep this game down on the list.


48. No More Heroes (Wii)
      I smurfing love Suda51, and this was the game that started that love. No More Heroes is a truly bizarre game that pretty much throws most video game conventions to the wind. It relishes in it's own absurdity, and at the same time can invest the player in the almost nonsensical story and world, making you care about what it is going on around you.

      Pair that with a truly unique visual style you don't really see from anything other then a Suda game. At no point in this game do you dislike looking at your surroundings, and there is so much detail and fun jokes to be found in the environments. Just for Suda's originality and flare alone I feel any one of his games are worth checking out.

      The biggest problems with this game though are the open world, which feels empty and a waste of time, and the controls themselves can suffer from not being quite tight enough at times, which can create some moments of Frustration. Still, if you have a Wii, or a PS3 for the port, the game is well worth your money. Go buy it now. And never look back.

I rented WA3&4 and KH1&2 before I made any purchased. Whereas I went on to own WA3 and both KH games, I wasn't really so bowled over by WA4. The concept behind the ARMs, the enemy gang, the HEX battlefield, the cheesy dialogue...
I like most of the designs of course.

I thought KH gummi battles were interesting while not being too much of a distraction. I really liked the KH2 version.
FYI, I thought Xehanort's Heartless had amnesia and really believed he was Ansem. Is this disproved?

I see Kingdom Hearts discussed a lot on these forums but I must admit I've never actually played the games. It might be something I check out if they ever release a PS3/Vita HD update.

No More Heroes was an excellent game. I only played it briefly when I rented it from Lovefilm but I loved the premise. I think the Wii controls could have been utilised better like in Twilight Princess but it was still effective. I might see if I can pick this up for cheap to play through the full story.

The Atelier games are fabulous. They're not tricky, but they're fun. :D Currently getting through Atelier Iris 2.

I should probably play KH again someday. I've only really played about ten minutes of it.

Late in updating, but I've ahd a lot go on the past couple days. :p

Anyay, here is the next set, and possibly the one of the last times Wolf will
find himself shaking is head at me!


47. Atelier Rorona: Alchemist of Arland (PS3)
46. Atelier Meruru: Apprentice of Arland (PS3)
45. Atelier Totori: Adventurer of Arland (PS3)
      These are not games made for everyone due to the nature of the stories they tell. The Arland series of games from Atelier aren't about saving the world, they tell the stories of a person simply trying to, for one reason or another, become an alchemist. At thier core the games hold the same game play, though here are variances in each one to keep them all feeling fresh.

      There is a big focus on non-combat in the game as well, where you build relationships as well as advance a separate level for your alchemy skill in order to create more powerful items, which in terms of combat is the main characters main method of battle. Each game comes with multiple endings, all of which are fun and unique. This comes with a great premise that you do play the game striving for a goal, but with so many different ways to achieve it, all of which offering different experiences giving
you reason to play through multiple times ot see all the games have to offer.

      This set of games knows not to take themselves to seriously and are some of gaming's most light hearted experiences. Still though, the game comes with some fairly dark moments. While not as dark as other games, it does do a better job at some to make you feel unsettling. I mean in a game such as Fall Out, even mass murder isn't going
to come as a shock as it's just part of the world, but killing only one person in a game like these leaves a big impact due to the dark contrast to the rest of the world.

      Really this game is only going to be good if you can get into the story and world, which a lot of people may not be able too. However, if you can enjoy the cast, which I do, and don't mind the lack of world ending plot, there is a lot to these games to enjoy.




Special Mention - Atlier Ayesha: Alchemist of Dusk

This isn't on the list because it came out after I started it, and it is just as good, if not better then the Arland games. On a whole it seems to have the weakest cast of the series, which may be why I'm not to sure if it's better or not, having only played through once, but from a mechanical stand point is is by far the best. The Alchemy, the central point of these games as well as most of the Atelier series, is the best it has ever been. It's the most in depth crafting system I have ever seen in a game, yet never is it confusing. It is rewarding to players who actually sit down to put a lot of thought into it, and I love it for that.

Combat is also a hell of a lot better, adding some positioning elements to the combat, so while at it's core it's the same there is an all new level of depth to and strategy added. Perhaps I will comment more on it once I get a few more endings. :p

Neo, this is such a great thread. How have I never seen this before..? ; ~;

44. Final Fantasy V (SNES)
      I hate to say this, cause some one will stab me, but I don't think I should have listed this after the Atelier Arland games. FF V is fun, though looking at it now I got more enjoyment out of No More Heroes and Kingdom Hearts as well, but smurf it. To late to change the number now. :p

      FF V has a lot going for it regardless. It's definitely the goofiest FF in the main series, and it does well for it. The jokes are great, the characters are fun and it's easy to care about what happens to them. Krile is the only exception, but hey, we had Galuf Vs. Ex-Death, the games single greatest moment, and honestly one of the
better ones in the series.

      There really isn't an objective reason I don't enjoy this game more though. It was just never one to hold my interest enough for me to care to play it again, and while there isn't many problems with the story, it lacks many moments that stand out, the Galuf one being the biggest. Hell, it didn't even leave an impact when you had the two worlds fusing together for me.

      That said though, the games combat is also great, giving you a lot of customization within your party, though there are quite a few classes and abilities that just aren't really that good, and it can be obvious even to a person who has little experience in RPG's. Still though, solid game and you should play it.

43. No More Heroes: Desperate Struggle (Wii)
      Take everything no more heroes did and make it better. The Jokes are funnier, the story is better, and the mini-games are better. Hell, you even get the chance to play as a couple characters other then Travis. Both Shinobu levels are great, except the second boss is frustrating as smurf, as Shinobu's Jump Mechanic's aren't tight enough for that level, though work great the rest of the time.

      Henry's only fight was a bit dull though to be honest, I didn't really like controlling Henry, and it was only for one fight anyway, so it could have been dropped. Regardless though, nothing else I could say about this without just retreading what I spoke of in the first one.


42. Legend of Zelda: Ocorina of Time (N64)
      OOT and Desperate Struggle are two games that are kind of interchangeable for me in terms of enjoyment, though the Nostalgia gave this game the edge. Zelda has always been a good series, and it transitioned beautifully into 3D. Like other games, the Puzzle's are fun to figure out and you have all sorts of fun gadgets to do it with.

      And while easy to blaze through now, a lot of the puzzles were actually challenging and took some thought to make it through. There was the water temple which was just a smurfing asshole, but other then that great. Also a lot of really fun and inventive bosses.

      Best of all, it came with the best story and characters of the series yet. Even the non-speaking link felt as though he had more character then ever before. And seeing the changes to the world after the seven year jump to the future when Ganon takes over is great. Best story, atmosphere, and gameplay to date in a Zelda game.

FFV is probably my favorite 2D FF game, most likely because of when I played it. I played through the first 6 FF games all the way through while I was in college. I suspect that an amazing story, visuals, and music is enough to blow you away when you're younger but when you're older, you need a little more to back it up. That's why I never fell that hard for FFIV or VI and probably why FFV edges them out for me. The gameplay is better balanced, of more substance, and scales well as the player progresses through the game. Managing those three things at the same time is a very rare balancing act and there's maybe 3 or 4 that have actually done it.

I do enjoy the replays, seeing a scene you forgot was there the first time, or smiling when a really cool scene comes up. Gilgamesh was awesome, X-Death was awesome ("Fools!"), and Reina's origin story was heartbreaking. Salute to Bartz, FF's only one true pimp.

I haven't played the No More Heroes sequel but hope to get onto it at some point. I'm also slowly working my way through the old FF games. Having already played FFVI onwards, I finished FFI recently I have just started FF2 and will make my way up to FFV eventually!

Ocarina of Time holds a special place in my heart though. It still doesn't quite top ALTTP for me but it is pretty damn close! It was my first proper 3D game I played (besides Mario 64) and was absolutely blown away back in 1998. If I'm being honest though, I would regard Twilight Princess as the best 3D Zelda I've played.

And here we go with the latest update!

41. White Knight Chronicles (PS3)
40. White Knight Chronicles 2 (PS3)
      This is a game that got quite a bit of backlash from a fair amount of people when it first came out, and I can't entirely blame it. It was a game that pretty much the entirety of it was the set up for something bigger, White Knight 2. I, obviously, was not one of those people, as I loved the first game, as well as the second.

      For starters it had a solid cast, with a couple exceptions. Mostly who shines in this game, however, are the Villains. Belcantine is quite literally a mustache twirling obviously evil man, but is so fun and wonderful in the role, he steals just about any scene he is in. Hell, there is a bit when he turns into a demon and his is still doing the mustache gesture, even though there is no longer a mustache to twirl. In addition is Shepur, who is far less talkative then Belcantine, but any time he does speak his dialogue is wonderfully vicious in nature.

      The game is also wonderful to look at, with imaginative designs and wonderful detail in the world around you, though there are times when the designs come across as a bit uninspired. However, this isn't often.

      The combat is fun, though I don't know if a lot of people would agree with me on it. Mostly, once you've hit about the half way point, you've pretty much established the combo set ups you will be using, and battles start to become rinse and repeat.

      While this is a game I probably enjoy more then it is objectively
good, there is still a lot this game can offer you. If you have a lot of free time on your hands it's worth checking out.

Haven't played the second one.

If I had to describe White Knight Chronicles, it would be the next-generation JRPG with all the gameplay mechanics in place to back it up... but none of the story/scenario to go along with it.

Still waiting for the explanation on how the last 80 or so entries are ahead of Final Fantasy VII.

...Because FF VII wasn't that good? :p

I haven't played these games, but I seen the video footage. It looks cool enough to play regardless of what criticism it may have received. I still want to get my hands on a copy but I haven't had luck so far.

I'm going to have to agree with Bolivar here. I don't even rank VII that high but some of these games you've posted have less merit than VII. White Knight Chronicles is a boring game with a generic cast and plot, and while its gameplay has a novel idea, it just can't carry the game for how tedious it is. I feel VII is overrated and while I agree with some of your reasoning's for not liking it (and could add a bit more) I'd still rank it over some of these games you've listed.

You already know how I feel about Atelier which while I can agree the crafting system is well done, it just can't make up for the bland plot, characters and gameplay. Like the Tales franchise, it is the RPG equivalent of Junk Food compared to the more exquisite meals offered by Breath of Fire, Suikoden, and most of the numbered FF series.

The fact you can rank these two series in your top 50 and turn around to consider Xenogears one of the worst games of all time just confounds me.

Attachment 41896

The Atelier Iris games were a big generic, but there is no way you can say that about the Arland series of games. In the world of RPG's, there really isn't any other games with plots like those ones. I guess you could call it bland, but really the focus of those games are on the path of your growing workshop over some overarching plot, as well as a goal that's pretty much only important to your main character rather then the world around her.

The cast can be a bit stereotypical at times, but still within their stereotypes they are pretty well written. Though I can see why a person wouldn't like the games characters. :p

And face it, my criticisms of Xenogears are all entirely valid. :colbert:

Edit: And note There has yet to be a Breath of Fire game, or any other FF besides VII and V listed. :p

And I have yet to actually play any Suikoden besides IV....

My new thing to do is going to be listing which of the games higher than Kingdom Hearts on your list are in fact no where near as good as Kingdom Hearts:

All of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

And I have yet to actually play any Suikoden besides IV....

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Perhaps you should play one that is not considered the worst Suikoden game. :3

I've been meaning to get around to it actually, I just almost always have a new game coming out. :p

Perhaps, since I'm somewhat gameless right now, I'll get around to it! :monster:

FFV rocked and yeah, Bolivar/WK are correct but you're Crackers when it comes to game ranking so what can I say.

Well, there's no accounting for one man's opinion. This isn't a professional criticism, Neo's entitled to his say. Some people consider Psychonauts to be god's gift to gaming. While I like the game, I certainly wouldn't call it a godsend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Like the Tales franchise, it is the RPG equivalent of Junk Food compared to the more exquisite meals offered by Breath of Fire, Suikoden, and most of the numbered FF series.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Tales franchise

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Junk Food

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:eyebrow:

...how many of the Tales of games did you actually play? Tales of honestly has some of the better JRPG characters out there. While I could agree that the storyline itself can lack a little sometimes, the characters always stay true to their personalities while maintaining depth and a good balance between humor and seriousness. Jade from ToA = more awesome and interesting than every single FF character. Period.

Comparing Tales of with junk food is so incomprehensible that I will quote you one more time:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Like the Tales franchise, it is the RPG equivalent of Junk Food

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http://home.eyesonff.com/attachments...d-facepalm.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow

:eyebrow:

...how many of the Tales of games did you actually play? Tales of honestly has some of the better JRPG characters out there. While I could agree that the storyline itself can lack a little sometimes, the characters always stay true to their personalities while maintaining depth and a good balance between humor and seriousness. Jade from ToA = more awesome and interesting than every single FF character. Period.

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I just don't see it, while the Tales of series certainly have some exceptions to the rule I feel overall the franchise is a mediocre series that dips all too often into both the Big Book or RPG cliches and Big Book of Anime cliches which largely leaves me feeling every game I've played as being a "been there, done that" kind of feel. While Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss are certainly high marks, its hard to say the same thing about the rest of the franchise who often gets more publicity when Namco-Bandai decided not to release the newest entry outside of Japan. Honestly, I just don't feel the franchise has what it takes to push the medium like FF, DQ, and other fan favorite JRPGs have.

Hell, the Tales franchise has not even had the real clout to seriously take over the JRPG market this generation after Square-Enix practically handed this generation over to them by releasing what many fans consider the weakest entries in some of their flagship franchises, having others end up as a no show, and even alienated others by jumping genre. Even with all the hate the recent FF titles get and the lavish praise thrown on the Tales games, FFXIII has out-sold every Tales of game this generation combined... Its a fun series which is why I called it junk food cause people love and often crave junk food, but in its current state I don't feel the Tales of franchise will ever reach the same clout as some series have.

As for you NeoCracker, prepare because I'm going to take you on your claim when I have time tomorrow. :mad2:

"YO Neo, get ready, cause you're next..." Love it!

I also have to bookmark this page because Wolf just said DQ pushed the genre forward...

Also I don't think sales and market share is the barometer of success for a JRPG, and I wouldn't count FFXIII sales as a threshold on that scale. XIII sold more on PS3 alone than Mass Effect 2 did on all platforms combined, and that's one of the biggest games this generation.

Speaking of DQ.....

39. Dragon Quest VIII (PS2)
      This is going to sound bizarre, but with the exception of the time I played DQ V about half way through using a fan translation, DQ VII was my first experience with Dragon Quest. And you know what? It was a good one. The game has a wonderful Charm to it other series just don't seem to have. It's art style, it's silly puns, and simplistic story telling all meld together so wonderfully well.

      I also enjoy the customization system, giving you different ways of using your characters dependent upon which weapons you invested your points into, though it was odd that each character's points were different, but hey, that's just nitpicking. Really it's a very classic JRPG that does what it does very well. If you like this kind of game, it's great, but if you were never very keen on DQ I don't see this one winning you over.

38. Wild Arms 5 (PS2)
      This is a hard game to talk about given how I've already spoken on WA 4. The reason being is that this game is good for all the same reasons, only it does it all better. It was pretty much the natural evolution of the direction WA 4 took the series. If there is anything specific to point to, however, it was the interchangeable party members where as 5 gave you options, and I've always been a fan of the interchangeable party. Even with the lack of team up techniques when compared to WA 4, it still manages to be the superior title.

I know both are a bit on the short side this time, but piss off, I"ve had to deal with trout this week. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

"YO Neo, get ready, cause you're next..." Love it!

I also have to bookmark this page because Wolf just said DQ pushed the genre forward...

Also I don't think sales and market share is the barometer of success for a JRPG, and I wouldn't count FFXIII sales as a threshold on that scale. XIII sold more on PS3 alone than Mass Effect 2 did on all platforms combined, and that's one of the biggest games this generation.

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True, sales don't really mean much sometimes but to fair in my comparison, Mass Effect 2's combined numbers are not far off from XIII's sales as opposed to the Tales Of games who haven't seen a major financial success since Tales of Symphonia. From what I gather it was the last time the series had a title break a million. Course I could turn this around and probably discover my beloved MegaTen is also all hype with little financial merit to back it up, but my point is that even though Tales had a whole generation to really grab players by their "gaming stones" and lead the JRPG revolution this generation as the old guard meekly defends its waning title as king of the genre, it just didn't happen and games like From Software's Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, Monoloith Soft's Xenoblade Chronicles, Sega's Valkyria Chronicles, and Mistwalker's Lost Odyssey seem to be the titles that will be truly revered and telling of what fans expect from the JRPG genre. Tales fans talk about the Tales series, but I'm always surprised how often editorials, fan comments, and blogs will bring up these games when speaking about the genre and its future.

Its not to say I feel Tales is a bad series, and I do feel it has merits for the genre, but it just doesn't have the qualities to lead to the genre like FF and other series have.

As for DQ, it has its moments of leading the genre. While I feel DQIV failed as a story, its direction with the chapter setup was novel and interesting and has long been utilized (much better I might add) by other games like Wild ARMs. DQIII and DQV are certainly game changers that really inspired Squaresoft and Sega to really push the envelope to surpass them with Final Fantasy and Phantasy Star respectively. Even DQVIII has some worthy game design that I really feel RPG developers should take a second look at and learn from it.

I found an interesting article about FFVI, but the writer really placed a heavy emphasis on how DQV really effected Squaresoft and inspired them to change their usual style to create VI in order to answer Enix's DQV. While it's all baseless theory, I can't hep but say after playing both games that its likely true to some degree.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

And face it, my criticisms of Xenogears are all entirely valid. :colbert:

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No :p

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

6. Xenogears
There was one accusation about me going in wanting to hate this game, but I actually am depressed I don't like this game. I will say, I can see a lot of good in this game. It has a couple of very well written characters with Fei and Citan, and a lot of great build up. However, there are three things that just kill this game for me.

Firstly, I believe it was Mirage who said this though I may be wrong, but this game takes way to much advantage of the players suspension of Disbelief. Vanderkaums arrogance was way beyond a guy stuck in his ways, that kid making it to the second round of a martial arts tournament, I could go on, but I think you get the point.

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First off, Vanderkaum's arrogance is really truth being stranger than fiction because this happens more often in war than you think. The British Red Coats utilized a classic style of troop warfare that proved ineffective against some Colonial regiments who used guerrilla war tactics. The same thing happened in Vietnam where America used WWII tank/infantry tactics that proved time and again to be ineffective to an enemy that simply ran away into the jungle and sniped the advancing army. Hell, the Spanish Armada itself partly fell (besides the Act of God) because they tried to fight more advanced full sail ships which were more maneuverable, and carried better weapons. The Spanish also lost because they tried to fight the battle with outdated tactics that got them pounded in some of their encounters. So no, I don't feel Vanderkaum's stupidity is unrealistic, of anything he's probably more realistic than you would like to believe people are. I on the other hand, have largely given up on humanity. Attachment 41959

As for Dan, he does know martial arts, the Lahan section confirms Fei trained the children of the village, so its not like he's some farm boy with no skill. I'm mean damn, Citan and Fei are in the village training kids and they are both monsters so I feel its possible Dan could win a few fights, especially since being a child would give him a mental advantage. The scene itself is also important because Fei has finally gotten out of his "Woe is Me" mindest and finally focusing on looking at the bigger picture and using his strength to help a worthy cause. The battle with Dan is both a symbolic battle of Fei accepting his guilt and giving the player the chance to smack around the annoying little twerp, I mean they did it again in Xenosaga Episode 3 to give the players catharsis.

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Secondly is the dungeon and monster design. Dear god, these are the worst dungeons I have ever seen an any RPG. Especially the ones where everything looks the same, and there is no map to refer to. It gets dull and boring. And the monster design isn't so much bad, as they re-use a the same desing a lot. This is some of the least variety I have ever seen in a game.

Worst of all, none of the games build up pays off. I'm sure no one will deny how sucky it was Rico's entire story got axed from the game, but this is a problem you see throughout the entire game. So much trout got cut, and this game suffers for it.

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Really? The worst dungeons design ever? Even FFII with its multi-floor one color Gauntlet-style designs with rooms that teleport you into the middle of it and have increased encounter rates is more fun and creative than Xenogears?

FFXIII's corridor where all you do is walk forward auto-jump at pre-destined places and maybe try to outmaneuver large Behemoths on tight corridors even though you know damn well their is no room to actually maneuver?

I mean smurf, the first two Xenosaga games feature several dungeons with the same wall structure layout, and Episode II had you go through the same dungeon twice, in a row, and all they changed was that it was snowing instead of spring.

Somehow, Xenogears is just worst?

Listen, I'll gleefully meet you halfway and say that Xenogears had bad dungeons, while I feel the introduction of platforming made for some interesting design choices, I also agree it was not implemented well but I can also say I was never bored in all of the dungeons. Frustrated beyond reason in the Babel Tower, sure, but never bored. I certainly forgive the game more than I probably should in this regard but then again I use to play platformers hot and heavy in the old days and that included the bad Mario knock-offs with sputtering controls, so maybe I just have a higher threshold for that kind of bulltrout, who knows, but I disagree its the worst.

Enemy types is a fair critique, I can't really justify that, though I often spent more time learning to do deathblows and playing with Gear accessories but I would be the first to admit Xenogears battle system is more style over substance. A bad trait it carries from what was trending at the time.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Esmeralda was introduced and ignored until one optional dungeon end game, which barely added anything at all.

Maria's entire arc started and ended when you first meat her to her first Gear fight.

We will not get into Pupu.

Billy's Arc was good, but was also short lived and not really expanded up at all after the initial arc finishes.

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Dood, most RPGs tend to only give side characters one moment in the spotlight, like most of the supporting cast from BoF2. There just isn't enough time to expand a huge cast especially one as expansive as Xenogears. The thing here is that I honestly felt the character development most of the cast did get was really good, and another thing to point out is that Gears largely stuck to expanding characters whose stories coincided with Feis and the ancient conspiracy of Solaris. This is why I felt Rico got the shaft because its the only country not connected to Solaris in some way. Whereas Bart had Shahkan and Gebler, Billy had the Ethos Organization, Esmerelda was the actual tool needed to complete Krelian and the Gazel Ministry's plan, and Maria further explained Solaris experiments using Wells and Gears. The important thing here and you even admit this yourself is that the characters stories are pretty much self contained barring Rico, the rest of the cast are introduced and by the end of their arc they have resolved most of their issues. I mean what else was Maria and Billy really going to add to the story after their segments. They still have their moments like Billy using his gun expertise to help destroy the Solaris Gate, or Maria being responsible for getting the party into Solaris.

Esmerelda's importance as a character is to tell Kim and the Zeboim Era's story. She is the child Kim and Elly could not have and she symbolically represents just how smurfed up that era was which is the origin of the Gears and why Krelian and the others need Nanotechnology to fulfill their plan since humanity screwed themselves up so bad their own DNA was starting to fail them. Beyond that, she is more important as a plot device since her existence allows the bad guys to fulfill their plan and I kind of like the cosmic coincidence of Fei's former incarnation accidentally helping the bad guys, not that Kim is the last incanration to screw Fei over.

The thing here is that Xenogears is not an ensemble cast, its more like FFIV, VII, and VIII featuring a main character whose story is the driving element of the plot. Elly, Citan and Bart are central in getting Fei to move forward on his journey so obviously they get the most screentime. Hell even the amount of deathblows the characters have can pretty much tell you how important they are in the story.

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And I have a bias against any Romance whose entire basis is "We were destined to be together because destiny!". It cheapens the entire thing for me. :p

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We'll just have to agree to disagree, I like those types of story because at least they can create more interesting conflict than "will they or won't they" instead I felt Xenogears did a great job of actually building a real relationship between the two with thei first encounter in the woods, to their battle before Fei's major ambush, to the really wonderful soul searching you get when they are shipwrecked. To be honest, I would argue Fei and Elly have one of the better developed relationships and this is all before you realize its all destiny, even without it, you can see them growing slowly closer as the story progresses which is much better than stuff from the FF series where after one cutscene they already know they want to bump uglies. The destiny aspect itself is also played very well since we get to see that even though they were meant to be together, fate always deals Elly a bad hand and their love is always screwed over time and time again so their story is less about "will they tell each other how they feel?" and more of a "will they both actually survive this and finally get the happy ending they deserve?" and Xenogears deliveres it. Besides, not many games pull the "destiny" card so I find it rather refreshing than the overused "childhood friend" or "boy meets girl" that plaugues the genre like a bad infection.

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Anyway, before I beat this dead horse more....

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Too late...

You know, the moment I actually get to BoF2 on this list, I will explain to you why it did the better job with the different character stories, but I don't want to pre-emptively go on about a game that I haven't gotten to on my list yet. :p

I will still counter both Maria and Esmeralda because their stories are pretty much finished the moment they are introduced into the party. Esmaralda didn't even need to join the party for her story to be fulfilled. Fei's recalling memories happens in the game without her, so she's not even necessary for the flashback scene to the other time period.

And I'll just give you FF 2, because I'll be honest I can't remember trout about it's dungeon design. And Xenosaga can have some pretty bad design choices, but never in that game did a dungeon frustrate me, and I never really felt like I was just re-treading the same ground for the entire stretch of the dungeon.

And let's not bring Xeno 2 into this, I already admit to forgiving that entire game way more then I probably should. :p

Oddly though, I don't really have an issue with the Xeno battle system other then the fact when you have Citan in your group there is no reason to try anymore, and after a certain point the battles just become rinse and repeat the remainder of the game. (I've forgiven plenty of other games for that though. :p)

Most of my distaste for this game is the lack of any real pay off to what was otherwise some really well done build up.

ANd yes, there is some pretty nutty cases in real life of generals and what not making some really smurfing stupid tactical choices. However, your examples still aren't as stupid as Vanderkaum, and here is why.

1) Any reference to tactics is nonsense, because the army is trained and equipped to handle situations Vanderkaum was in. It's not like they were dealing with some new breed of enemy that required tactics they'd never used before, this was trout they've dealt with in the past.

2) The Redcoats had the misfortune of not being trained to handle that kind of fighting. They were also at the disadvantage of not being willing to just level everything because it was still considered British property, and to do so would destroy it's own infrastructure. These are two things that in no way, shape, or form factor into Vanderkaum's arrogance and failure.

3) Solaris's, on a whole, is smart. They have been doing their thing for generations, run and operated by people who have been able to adapt with the generations of different kinds of opposition. Yet somehow on this run they see it as a good Idea to trust a guy who they have seen already is a raging imbecile?

4) Even if I drop point three, there is one more thing wrong with that scene. When a guy is an idiot, but has way more power and resources then you, you win the fight by outsmarting him. Fei's plan? Charge in guns blazing and just trust the idiocy of a man you have never met, and have only heard a small bit about, is so great he shall forgoe using the entire armada of anti-gear weaponry at his disposal in favor of the least efficient weapon in his arsenal for handling the situation. I mean yes, it did work, but it doesn't change the fact the plan was smurfing stupid.

5) I'll even drop point four for this, grant you Vanderkaum is believable, and grant you that Fei's plan wasn't smurfing stupid (Even though it was), and ask you this. Just because something is believable, does it make for a good story? What kind of threat is an enemy so stupid that with the vastly superior resources at Vanderkaum's disposal, he can go down to such an minimalistic plan? It was like at the end of Burst Angel when the Brain in a Jar was raving about how he could not be defeated, and it was to late to stop him, and the main character just shoots him through his non-bullet proof glass and the show ends.


Edit: Also, I think I'm done talking on Xenogears. I've bitched enough of the topic. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I just don't see it, while the Tales of series certainly have some exceptions to the rule I feel overall the franchise is a mediocre series that dips all too often into both the Big Book or RPG cliches and Big Book of Anime cliches which largely leaves me feeling every game I've played as being a "been there, done that" kind of feel.

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I can agree with cliches being used often. However... they almost always have an unusual take on these cliches one way or another, or they are simply better done than cliches of the same categories in other games. The characters in the Tales of games usually have very well-defined personalities that separate them from the more flat and overly generic counterparts you see in a whole lot of actually mediocre RPGs out there.

Asbel from Graces, for example, fits into just as many typical "hero cliches" as... say, Edge from SO4. Yet at the same time, he is quite possibly the only main character of his kind that I actually like a lot. The game doesn't try to blow his goodie two-shoes ways out of propotions, and the other characters can see his ideals as a burden at times, rather than blindly clinging to him like he's some kind of messiah. There are even parts that makes fun of him for being a hero cliche. Yet he has more depth and better reason for ideals than pretty much all other MC's of his kind.

He uses a sword, fights for justice and stuff, wants to protect everyone and all that crap... all those things you've seen before in every RPG ever, yet he still manages to stay different from those typical RPG heroes. And perhaps even more importantly, he's set on his naive ideals to the point where he can actually come to a mutual conclusion with the villain(s) rather than "destroying the source of evil" - which is something fresh that you really don't see much in other RPGs.

And when it comes to main villains, the FF series uses far more cliches. The Tales of series uses many cliches, but they use them well.

...so I absolutely disagree with the "been there done that" feel. Especially when compared to so many half-decent RPGs. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

While Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss are certainly high marks, its hard to say the same thing about the rest of the franchise who often gets more publicity when Namco-Bandai decided not to release the newest entry outside of Japan. Honestly, I just don't feel the franchise has what it takes to push the medium like FF, DQ, and other fan favorite JRPGs have. Hell, the Tales franchise has not even had the real clout to seriously take over the JRPG market this generation after Square-Enix practically handed this generation over to them by releasing what many fans consider the weakest entries in some of their flagship franchises, having others end up as a no show, and even alienated others by jumping genre. Even with all the hate the recent FF titles get and the lavish praise thrown on the Tales games, FFXIII has out-sold every Tales of game this generation combined...

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Tales of Vesperia and Tales of Graces, while not quite as great as Symphonia and Abyss, are still really good games too. And sales are totally irrelevant to the subject. Sales does not equal quality.

...and after reading your second post with the clarification: "taking the throne" and "leading the genre to a new future" are not really relevant to the quality of the series either. A game doesn't have to be revolutionary to be great.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Its a fun series which is why I called it junk food cause people love and often crave junk food, but in its current state I don't feel the Tales of franchise will ever reach the same clout as some series have.

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So tell me, what exactly separates a fun junkfood game from a fun non-junkfood game to you? :p


Comparing Tales of to FF, I gotta say that on a whole:

Tales of has better character design.

Tales of has far superior gameplay.

FF has better music.

FF has better storylines.

...and to me, the first two both outweight the later two.

Also, not trying to trout-talk FF. I love the FF games. But if you ask me, the Tales of main series still has better titles than the FF main series. :greenie:

Unless we're all done here, this is encroaching on "new thread" territory, although we've kinda already done the whole Xenogears thing a few months ago.

Moving forward, I am now shifting from bitching about the last 80 games being ahead of Final Fantasy VII to how the next 38 games are ahead of Dragon Quest VIII.

Because there exists a better Dragon Quest game. :p

?37. Final Fantasy IV (SNES)
      This game, much like Super Mario World in a way, is very important to me for a reason more so then just the quality of the game itself. This was my first foray into the world of RPG's, and when I played it I could not think of any games I enjoyed more then it. That did start to change as time went on, mind you. Yet even if I look past the Nostalgia, this game has a lot of Merits in it's own right, and I can comfortably say the Nostalgia has little effect on this games placement.

      While lacking the interchangeable party I enjoy in RPG's, FF IV makes up for this with having a great line up of PC's that come in and out of the party depending upon where you are in the story, and very few of them I didn't really like. Hell, I can't even think of a character I hate, and that's astonishing for me. There are some who I think aren't all that good, such as the twins and Rosa, but this is pretty miniscule.

      And it also ends up being one of the more challenging FF's, especially the DS version. I will say that, on a whole, the DS is my favorite version for the increased difficulty, improved script, and great Augment System (Even if the method for getting some of them was ridiculous). While not my favorite FF, I can easily see why people might regard it as such.

      Since it's not appearing on the list as I forgot to include it, I will mention The After Years here as well. The After years was great. A lot of new and fun characters, and a fun use of a Dual tech System. It managed to feel like a game linked with FF IV while adding a new spin to the game play. And Edward was a smurfing boss in this. That is all.


?36. Final Fantasy Tactics (PSX)
      Tactis was a big game changer for FF I think. Not only did it make the move to the SRPG set up found in the original Tactics Ogre Titles, but in terms of story this was something that wasn't seen in just about any RPG or console game. It was a story focusing a lot more on a political plot. It still holds much of FF's magical flair however, and the game does a wonderful job and utilizing both aspects. Also it gets points for being so much more then a simple ploy between good and evil, and deals with a lot of grey area.

      As with most FF's, the game does a great job at creating it's world and characters,
and backing it all up with a wonderful score. I am bothered by when you start getting named PC's with unique classes, since I'd already put all this time into no name classes, but that is a bit of a nit pick. :p


      The combat is solid, giving you a lot of classes and options. While there are too
many abilities that just end up being worthless, and a couple really silly systems like Brave, Faith, and your Zodiac Sign (MInd you, they all had potential, but were just badly utalized I feel), it makes up for it with all of it's other strengths.

      And I'm not sure if it's still a bit controversial to say this, but War of the Lions is the best version of this game. Even with the graphical slow down at times, the absolutely wonderful Dialogue of the re-translation makes up for it. It has a lot more character and does a far better job then the original at conveying the mood and atmosphere of the game. Though i was sad at the loss of the line 'Rebels Plotting Rebellion.'

      I will say, I have yet to play, though will as soon as I can, Tactics Ogre: Let us
Cling together.

I'm sad that Final Fantasy IV is only 37th spot. What a crime.

:colbert:

[ throws copy of FF IV at you ]

Bow down at his majesty and apologize !

I've played FFIV some distance in but I can't remember much of it at all, it was when I was about 17 or so. I recently bought both of these games for the PSP, though, so fingers crossed it isn't another dozen years before I get around to finishing them.

And now for a couple of games that are completely different!

35. Septerra Core: Legacy of the Creator (PC)
      This is probably the most seriously under rated game I have ever played, and it's a shame the game didn't get more attention. It came out really buggy, but even though the company went under, still the developers put the time in to patch and fix the game even though there was no semblance of business incentive to do so. It was plagued with some pretty bad bugs do to it being rushed, a couple of which could make it unplayable prior to the patches. But smurf it, they fixed it.


      The setting of Septerra core is one of the most unique I have seen in a game, taking place in a world where the continents exists as a series of land masses connected in layers, each 'shell' as they are called basically acting as it's own city state of sorts. The plot focus on The Chosen, those who live on the upper most Shell, trying to force ably fulfill the Prophecy of Marduk and open on the core, leading the Chosen to the Kingdom of Heavan. Maya and the party she picks up along the way are fighting against them and all the damage their plans are causing to the people of the world.


      The characters and story are all wonderful, and it features one of RPG's only female protagonists. And she is awesome. This girl is like, a feminists wet dream with how well written she is, and lacking the typical female stereotypes. The cast is varies, and you are left with no party member feeling useless. Even unique dialogue and options depending on who you have, some characters even allowing access to certain things you otherwise couldn't have if they weren't with your party.


      The magic system was fun, allowing you to combine 2-3 spells at a time to get a variety of effects, taking multiple characters turns to pull it off. The battle system is very well thought out, and allows for a lot of strategies to be employed, though as well made as it is it ends up being the games biggest weakness. The combat of this game can go very slow, even by RPG standards. You see, each character has a time meter, and three sections. Basically, you gain access to a different set of abilities for each rank you are at, so you can end up waiting with nothing happening on screen for noticeable stretches of time. If slow battle systems bug you, this would definitely get irritable, and is what keeps me from ranking this game higher. Yes, it really can be that slow.


      If you can look past a the speed, however, give this game a shot. It's on over at GOG games, though I warn you the method to get it running on Vista or higher with windows isn't guaranteed to work. (Nothing illegal or system damaging mind you. :p). I admit this is a huge downside, but I find myself able to forgive it because of how great the game was put together.

?34. Heavy Rain (PS3)
      Wow this game is intense. It has some of gaming's most uncomfortable scenes, and I mean that in the best way possible. This is another one though that's really hard to write about, because the entire motivating factor to play is the story and characters. The game play is... differnt. I'm sure a lot of you probably know about it, but it's mostly quick time events mixed in with some point and click style adventure. The only real comparisons you can even make game-play wise is to that of a Visual Novel with QT events and some point and click adventure.

      If that concept isn't to alienating for you, the game has a lot of absolutely stunning visuals, and a rather dark and
twisted story. Learning about all the characters and events involved in this game are fantastic, and there is a variety of different endings, some of which you'll get if you fail and get killed in some of the characters stories, as it follows around four different character plots to reach the end.

      This game is from a studio who really do make a kind of game you don't find any one else doing, and they do a good job at it. Here's hoping Beyond: Two Souls turns out just as good! :monster:

Surprised to see Heavy Rain, not that it doesn't deserve it. Maybe the most intense game I've ever played? A lot of the scenes are just surreal as you're playing them.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

You know, the moment I actually get to BoF2 on this list, I will explain to you why it did the better job with the different character stories, but I don't want to pre-emptively go on about a game that I haven't gotten to on my list yet. :p

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I look forward to explaining why you are wrong. :p

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I will still counter both Maria and Esmeralda because their stories are pretty much finished the moment they are introduced into the party. Esmaralda didn't even need to join the party for her story to be fulfilled. Fei's recalling memories happens in the game without her, so she's not even necessary for the flashback scene to the other time period.

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For one thing, Maria's Arc is pretty long and encompasses the introduction to Shevat, you talk like it ended 10 minutes after her introduction when it was just as long as Rico's intro and Billy's Arc. Esmerelda's story is Kim's story which is why she has to be there, not only is she an important plot element for the bad guys, but her existence really tells the story of Zeboim Era. Esmerelda's Story is the story of the Zeboim Era and it wouldn't have worked out with just Fei's flashbacks. Esmerelda's story is split into three sections. Her intro where the party races against Bishop Stone to retrieve her which is a really touching scene if you brought Elly along, her actual intro to the party after her boss fight where we get the second major hint about Fei's reincarnation past. Finally we get her third section where we finally fill in the blanks to one of Fei's past incarnations, but also Fei finally get's to see his life's work as Kim come to fruition as Esmerelda becomes complete. It was a touching bookend to both her and Kim.

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And I'll just give you FF 2, because I'll be honest I can't remember trout about it's dungeon design. And Xenosaga can have some pretty bad design choices, but never in that game did a dungeon frustrate me, and I never really felt like I was just re-treading the same ground for the entire stretch of the dungeon.

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FFII's dungeons are atrocious and this is coming from someone who actually likes FFII.

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And let's not bring Xeno 2 into this, I already admit to forgiving that entire game way more then I probably should. :p

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It is as much as your sin as my enjoyment of FFII is mine. ;)

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Oddly though, I don't really have an issue with the Xeno battle system other then the fact when you have Citan in your group there is no reason to try anymore, and after a certain point the battles just become rinse and repeat the remainder of the game. (I've forgiven plenty of other games for that though. :p)

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Citan is a monster and it isn't helped that the game really loves to keep him in your party. I was honestly waiting for Bolivar to jump in on that one. :p

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Most of my distaste for this game is the lack of any real pay off to what was otherwise some really well done build up.

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I'll have to agree to disagree because I felt Xenogears paid off the important parts of the story. Rico and Kaiser's story, the "missing night in Shevat", and the missing Omnigears are the only major story points that bothered me. I'll agree the rushed nature of the rest of the plot is a valid criticism but I honestly felt the developers handled it well considering they were on deadline and had the budget slashed in mid-development.

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ANd yes, there is some pretty nutty cases in real life of generals and what not making some really smurfing stupid tactical choices. However, your examples still aren't as stupid as Vanderkaum, and here is why.

1) Any reference to tactics is nonsense, because the army is trained and equipped to handle situations Vanderkaum was in. It's not like they were dealing with some new breed of enemy that required tactics they'd never used before, this was trout they've dealt with in the past.

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Partially untrue, the opening of the game pretty much tells you that Gear combat is relatively new to the current countries of the Ignas continent, largely thanks to Solaris hiding and controlling history. Hell, if you think about it, even though Solaris uses Gears in their military, they haven't fought a real war in 500 years, so its not like their army has real longterm battle experience against other gears.

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2) The Redcoats had the misfortune of not being trained to handle that kind of fighting. They were also at the disadvantage of not being willing to just level everything because it was still considered British property, and to do so would destroy it's own infrastructure. These are two things that in no way, shape, or form factor into Vanderkaum's arrogance and failure.

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Not true, the Redcoats would be well aware of the fighting tactics since the Colonist and British forces faced it in the French and Indian War a decade earlier. Several of the Redcoat forces were already stationed in the New World and would know the guerrilla tactics used by the Native American confederacy's. Hell when the British retreated from Boston after Bunker Hill, they regrouped in Canada and turned it into their staging ground. The notion of the Redcoats not being aware of guerrilla tactics is often an over-exaggeration helped to simplify understanding the war. Of anything the British often made the same mistake as Vanderkaum did in the early stages of the war which was try lure the Continental Army into a more conventional warfare they were strongest at, which often failed in the early stages of the War. The southern defense was often the Colonial army starting a conventional fight against the redcoats and then breaking formation and retreating to the wood where the Redcoats would follow and be picked off by ambushes. Granted the Colonials usually lost a any encounter that was a conventional fight or suffered heavy casualties.

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3) Solaris's, on a whole, is smart. They have been doing their thing for generations, run and operated by people who have been able to adapt with the generations of different kinds of opposition. Yet somehow on this run they see it as a good Idea to trust a guy who they have seen already is a raging imbecile?

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Not true as well, the whole reason Ramsus and his Gebler forces are in Aveh is because Vanderkaum is a screw up and needs to be replaced. Ramsus even foreshadows that its Vanderkaum's arrogance and use of dated military weapons and tactics is why he's a failure. If memory serves me correct, I think Ramsus even mentions he sent Vanderkaum to the front lines in the hope he would get killed. Its because of Ramsus harsh treatment and the fact Vanderkaum is going to be punished when he returns to Solaris that also lends support to why Vanderkaum made such stupid bullheaded moves because he was trying to prove his way of thinking was relevant. The game does a pretty good job of creating a human element to Vanderkaum in this regard. He's isn't just being stupid, he's also being desperate because he wants to prove the superiors they were wrong. Basically Vanderkaum is a fine example when keeping it real goes horribly wrong.

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4) Even if I drop point three, there is one more thing wrong with that scene. When a guy is an idiot, but has way more power and resources then you, you win the fight by outsmarting him. Fei's plan? Charge in guns blazing and just trust the idiocy of a man you have never met, and have only heard a small bit about, is so great he shall forgoe using the entire armada of anti-gear weaponry at his disposal in favor of the least efficient weapon in his arsenal for handling the situation. I mean yes, it did work, but it doesn't change the fact the plan was smurfing stupid.

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Fei is actually told ahead of time what kind of person Vanderkaum is when Sigurd and Citan brief him about the plan, so its not like Fei went in blind. Fei's goal was only to harrass the forces and make them call for backup by making it look like a Kislev attack, he was never meant to win. Even Fei's allies remark that Fei's actions were reckless (course they are used to it thanks to Bart) and the whole team themselves are dumbfounded when they actually crush Vanderkaum's forces.

The other thing to point out is that Fei is not just "Average Joe" and Weltall is an exceptional Gear so Fei's forces did have some advantages that Vanderkaum's forces were not prepared for.

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5) I'll even drop point four for this, grant you Vanderkaum is believable, and grant you that Fei's plan wasn't smurfing stupid (Even though it was), and ask you this. Just because something is believable, does it make for a good story? What kind of threat is an enemy so stupid that with the vastly superior resources at Vanderkaum's disposal, he can go down to such an minimalistic plan? It was like at the end of Burst Angel when the Brain in a Jar was raving about how he could not be defeated, and it was to late to stop him, and the main character just shoots him through his non-bullet proof glass and the show ends.

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I felt it was good story telling because we watch Fei finally grow into more of a hero than his mopey ass self from the previous 15 hours of the game, we get to watch the arrogance and desperation of a man end both his career and his life. To me the Vanderkaum sequence is an interesting tale that watches someone who is really shooting himself in the foot come to the sad revelation that he was wrong and then making a deal with the devil to try and gain redemption. Vanderkaum's story is written so you feel pitty for the man, not surprised by what happens and certainly you will yell at him as he keeps tying the noose around his neck but I find it engaging because its a lesson in hubris and human folly. I like it, I felt it was well written because the drama is about the fall of a stupid old soldier who is too stubborn to diverge from his old ways. You don't really get that kind of writing in video games, or at least ones that give the character a more human element.

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Edit: Also, I think I'm done talking on Xenogears. I've bitched enough of the topic. :p

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We'll see about that. :D

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Originally Posted by Ultima Shadow

I can agree with cliches being used often. However... they almost always have an unusual take on these cliches one way or another, or they are simply better done than cliches of the same categories in other games. The characters in the Tales of games usually have very well-defined personalities that separate them from the more flat and overly generic counterparts you see in a whole lot of actually mediocre RPGs out there.

Asbel from Graces, for example, fits into just as many typical "hero cliches" as... say, Edge from SO4. Yet at the same time, he is quite possibly the only main character of his kind that I actually like a lot. The game doesn't try to blow his goodie two-shoes ways out of propotions, and the other characters can see his ideals as a burden at times, rather than blindly clinging to him like he's some kind of messiah. There are even parts that makes fun of him for being a hero cliche. Yet he has more depth and better reason for ideals than pretty much all other MC's of his kind.

He uses a sword, fights for justice and stuff, wants to protect everyone and all that crap... all those things you've seen before in every RPG ever, yet he still manages to stay different from those typical RPG heroes. And perhaps even more importantly, he's set on his naive ideals to the point where he can actually come to a mutual conclusion with the villain(s) rather than "destroying the source of evil" - which is something fresh that you really don't see much in other RPGs.

And when it comes to main villains, the FF series uses far more cliches. The Tales of series uses many cliches, but they use them well.

...so I absolutely disagree with the "been there done that" feel. Especially when compared to so many half-decent RPGs. :p

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I would need to know what these "half decent RPGs" were because once you drop FF and other fan favorites like BoF, Suikoden, MegaTen, and Persona, it seems to me all that is left is Tales and a few dungeon cralwers like Etrian Odyssey.

My issue is that I don't find the characters too engaging, they may use a new spin on old cliches but by this point in time after playing the genre for well over ten years, I'm just sick of the cliches themselves.

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Tales of Vesperia and Tales of Graces, while not quite as great as Symphonia and Abyss, are still really good games too. And sales are totally irrelevant to the subject. Sales does not equal quality.

...and after reading your second post with the clarification: "taking the throne" and "leading the genre to a new future" are not really relevant to the quality of the series either. A game doesn't have to be revolutionary to be great.

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It doesn't but it has to bring something that really sets it apart and while the Tales games have a battle system, I prefer a complete package, especially if I'm going to elevate something to 'great" status and I just feel the Tales series doesn't have that. Beyond their combat system, I don't feel their is anything that makes them truly stand out.


[/QUOTE]So tell me, what exactly separates a fun junkfood game from a fun non-junkfood game to you? :p[/quote]

Something that actually changes how I think both in terms of game design and in dealing with characters and stroies. A game that alters how I feel falls into the "non-junk food" a game should have a lasting impact even after you shut it off and for me, Tales doesn't really have it.

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Comparing Tales of to FF, I gotta say that on a whole:

Tales of has better character design.

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I disagree, while Tales of certainly has nice desings, the anime designs don't lend itself well especially in a market that is increasingly using the style. FF may have some ugly desing choices but it at least stands out. Then again, I tenbd to favor stylized designs like Amano and Tatsuya Yoshikawa

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Tales of has far superior gameplay.

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Depends on your poison, while I like Tales of gameplay, I'm not a fan of Action RPGs so I would favor FF in most cases on this point.

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FF has better music.

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Well the series does have a monopoly on that element, its hard to find composers on par with Nobuo Uematsu.

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FF has better storylines.

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Compared to Tales of, yes I would agree.

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...and to me, the first two both outweight the later two.

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While I can agree that fun gameplay is important, story tends to be my other factor over character design, I usually don't give a damn about graphics and could care less if the characters look cool or sexy. As long as I like the characters personality I can overlook sub-par design. Tales of is hindered to me by their stories and characters who can never hold my attention for long. To me apathy is the clearest sign of dislike for something. Hating a character is fine, at least the writer was able to write someone who could illicit a response from the consumer even if its not what they intented, but not giving a damn about them in the first place is a sign of failure and this is why I don't care for Tales of because they can't illicit anything from me, this is why I don't like FFVII, X, and XIII because I am largely apathetic to them and it hinders my ability to enjoy the games.

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Also, not trying to trout-talk FF. I love the FF games. But if you ask me, the Tales of main series still has better titles than the FF main series. :greenie:

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I can't agree about Tales of, but I also feel their are better games than some of the FFs so its not like I'm the raging "FFis teh BAEST!!!" but I can't deny the impact the series has on both the industry and on the people who love it.

Damn you, here is a very brief method of telling you why you are wrong.

1) Yes I exaggerated the Redcoats being unprepared, yet still they were at a disadvantage since the rebels new the land better for the gorilla tactics, and the whole 'not wanting to destory infrastructure' still stands. Both things not applying to Vanderkaum.

2) Maria's arc is not that long. Her arc starts when you learn she doesn't want to fight, and ends 10-20 minutes later when she does fight. And Esmaralda doesn't need to be there. The Story of Kim is told through his Flashbacks, not the existance
of Esmeralda. Really had Krellian not given you Esmaralda back, would anything really be different?

3) Ramsus forshadowing Vanderkaum being an ignorant idiot doesn't excuse his stupidity. Fei being told Vanderkaum was arrogant and old school does not only not indicate just HOW smurfing stupid Vanderkaum is, it doesn't excuse the stupidity of his plan. And I laugh at the very thought you enjoyed 'Vanderkaums story' of being an idiot.

4) Even though I don't think you can justify the plan being good, I won't disagree about Fei here.

5) I will add a quick and lackluster payoff for Gahrf at games end to list of troutty pay offs. And the Death of The Council, who your party never even gets to meet. Or the virus nanomachines of Krellian getting released into the world with you never getting the chance to see the effects. And this isn't so much a lack of pay off, but a pay off to events that never happened with Elly saying 'There was no one with more love in his heart then Krellian'. Was it Elly who said it? It was one of the two.

And I swear to god I'm ignoring any post of yours that even mentions Xenogears again from this point out.

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And I swear to god I'm ignoring any post of yours that even mentions Xenogears again from this point out.

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We'll see if you keep your promise. ;)

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

1) Yes I exaggerated the Redcoats being unprepared, yet still they were at a disadvantage since the rebels new the land better for the gorilla tactics, and the whole 'not wanting to destory infrastructure' still stands. Both things not applying to Vanderkaum.

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The Colonist didn't want infrastructure damaged either which is why they often let the British take over towns and just had the forces retreat, so this wasn't so much a weakness exclusive to the Redcoats, secondly, not knowing the lay of the land is also an over-exxaggeration, many of the British troops had been stationed in the Colonies for some time, and would know the territory as well as the Colonist in some parts.

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2) Maria's arc is not that long. Her arc starts when you learn she doesn't want to fight, and ends 10-20 minutes later when she does fight. And Esmaralda doesn't need to be there. The Story of Kim is told through his Flashbacks, not the existence
of Esmeralda. Really had Krellian not given you Esmaralda back, would anything really be different?

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Maria's Arc begins when she's introduced to the party at the top of the Tower of Babil, you learn about who she is and meet her in the city where she speaks about the old war and whatnot, Maria's Arc is the Shevat arc because she's one of the dominate figures.

His story is Esmerelda's existence, she is a nano-colony created as a means to restore the genetic ravages that humanity has wrought upon themselves, she takes the form of the daughter that Kim and Elly could not have, so not only is she the hope of the future of humanity but she even appears in the guise of a child symbolizing the hope of an era with abysmal birth rates. Had Krelian just had her disposed of, there would have been no incentive to finish Kim's story and to explore the Zeboim Era. Kim's flashbacks would have fallen flat and the player would have whined that Esmerelda wasn't expanded upon. The whole thing is set-up for her to be important. I'm struggling to figure out what you really wanted out of her.

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3) Ramsus foreshadowing Vanderkaum being an ignorant idiot doesn't excuse his stupidity. Fei being told Vanderkaum was arrogant and old school does not only not indicate just HOW smurfing stupid Vanderkaum is, it doesn't excuse the stupidity of his plan. And I laugh at the very thought you enjoyed 'Vanderkaums story' of being an idiot.

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Its a story of desperation and hubris, and I felt the writers did a good job of making you both pity Vanderkaum and just shake your head at him. Your inability to appreciate the type of story it is because you feel fictional characters must aspire to your ideal of humanity is your own problem.

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4) Even though I don't think you can justify the plan being good, I won't disagree about Fei here.

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Victory for me. Though I didn't say Fei's plan was good, and even the game points out that the other characters felt Fei was being a bit stupid but the game also has the Fridge Brilliance of Fei being partnered up with guys used to working with reckless leaders who don't think things through, so I would assume that Maitreya and his forces have a lot to do with Fei not getting killed.

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5) I will add a quick and lackluster payoff for Gahrf at games end to list of troutty pay offs. And the Death of The Council, who your party never even gets to meet. Or the virus nanomachines of Krellian getting released into the world with you never getting the chance to see the effects. And this isn't so much a lack of pay off, but a pay off to events that never happened with Elly saying 'There was no one with more love in his heart then Krellian'. Was it Elly who said it? It was one of the two.

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I felt Grahf had a pretty good payoff, by the time of his final showdown, you finally know all about him and Grahf isn't facing the meek little Fei anymore but rather the Unified Contact Fei who understood where Grahf was coming from. Grahf realizing his mistakes and realizing that Fei may actually stand a chance of ending all of this nonsense allowed Grahf to try redemption at the last moment and I felt it was a fitting end to him, because Grahf is one of the more powerful stories of the game and I felt it kept the bittersweet quality of his tale.

Fei does meet the Council, and just because a villain shows up doesn't mean he's faced, Revolver Ocelot, Emperor Gestahl, Tseng of the Turks, President ShinRa, and Yuna from BoFIV (who doesn't even get the smackdown he deserved) are just a few major players in their game whom the party never faces off with and only meet.

The Council themselves explains what happened to Cain's acolytes, and represent the question of whether its our physical frailty and finite lives that truly make us compassionate and moral. The Council pretty much explains why Solaris is getting away with all of their inhumane experiments because they themselves say they are no longer restricted by human frailty and its why its so damn awesome watching Krelian prove them wrong as he destroys them. I would say I am pretty damn happy with their fate and would say you're asking for a piece of closure that goes against who and what they represent. They didn't deserve a more spectacular end and the fact I could dislike them enough to say that says the team did a great job writing them.

As for the Nanomachines, you do see the effect, the game transforms most of humanity into wells who in turn transform into the Sereph used by Deus to recontruct its body. Pretty much every random encounter gear battle in Disk 2 is you witnessing the effects of the virus and the game only mentions what it does about a half-dozen times in the second disk. Hell, when you go off to face the Sufal Mass in the remnants of the Solaris Soylent Green system is them showing you what the virus does.

As for Elly's line, I blame this on you not understanding what Krelian's goal was, which I only find amusing because its not terribly different in logic to what Wilhelm was doing in Xenosaga and you can't help but praise that bastard and if we're going to talk about characters with poor pay off and lots of build-up Wilhelm is really more of a poster child of this than some of the Xenogears cast.

Basically, Krelians goal was to end all suffering by forcing humanity to merge with Deus and allow the the Wave Existence to pull them all into the higher dimension where it resides, basically forced spiritual evolution to become one with God, which is a Gnostic concept. Krelian is basically trying to help humanity which is why he helped Solaris but he tweaked the plan to benefit everyone and not just Deus. He pulled a Gendo Ikari, but instead of doing it all for his own self-interest, Krelian was actually looking out for humanity. The final confrontation with Krelian was basically Fei and Elly telling Krelian that he can't just decide for all people and while suffering is not something people like, its still a part of living and humanity has the strength to overcome it. Its all honestly a very nice message if you ask me.


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To comment on non-Xenogears/Tales of topics.

I'm still surprised FFV is so low on the list, not surprised with FFIV, FFTactics also threw me for a loop but you rarely talk about it so I guess I shouldn't be surprised and I will agree the War of the Lions version is the best. Your comments on DQVIII seem about right.

Well, considering I know nothing about your post past the first line, I think I'm keeping pretty damn close to that promise! :monster:

Were it not for the fact I'd rather not have two pages of posts one one smurfing game people stopped talking about in this thread quite some time ago I'd continue the conversaton. :p

33. Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinestrals (SNES)
      I both love and am frustrated by this franchise. The writing in Lufia 2 is wonderful (I don't have the first game listed, I will say it has not aged nearly as well, and would actually end up really low on the list, but higher then I placed Legends of Lore). It comes from the bad position of the company going under and getting bought out by people who didn't feel it was nescessary to explain who the smurf Arek the Absolute was. Pay no attention to the fact he may well be the single most important person behind the events of the franchise, yet we know virtually nothing about him. Yeah, Imma move on before I make an even worse case for this game. :p

      Regardless of lack of explanation of Arek, you do get the full story presented in Lufia 2. A struggle between the Sinestrals and man about who it is that truly deserves to rule the planet. One of the only games where you actually end up having a kid (There are a few others mind you. :p). This game is pretty much full of amazing characters, even the least interesting of which are more intriguing then a lot of games at the time. It's easy to get wrapped up in the fate of these people, and care about the outcome. It's also easy to rally against the villains. While rather clique, the villains fill thier roles wonderfully. They truly feel like the threat the game had been building them up to be.

       Combat is really great, making use of the IP system. You would build up a bar by getting hit, and use the stored energy as it were to activate special abilities from your gear. This actually gives you a bit of customization, picking gear based both off stats and IP abilities. Pair that with the Capsule Monster, evolvable monsters that fill your fifth character slot, the only one you have control over, helps give you a lot of options even with a mostly story determined party.

      Though what I love most is the puzzles. Oh god the puzzles in this game were so fun to solve. Were it not for the fact solving them all a second time is so easy, making the solving puzzle joy diminish on subsequent play through s, this game would be higher on the list as well. Regardless, I'd love to see more games make such splendid use of solving puzzles to advance.

32. Infamous 2 (PS3)
31.Infamous (PS3)
      I was surprising excited when I say the trailers for Infamous, yet when I finally got the game it was better then I had thought it was going to be. I know some people will disagree because of the Arkham games with Batman, which were amazingly well crafted, but to me Infamous is the definitive Super Hero game. This game captures everything great about the comic book super hero.

      The gameplay for starters is superb. With two different paths to alter your power growth you end up with quite a few play styles, and best of all both paths are very viable. Regardless of your path, there is a wide array of abilities, and the wall climbing mechanics, while bothersome for travel purposes, are amazing when exploited in combat. Enemy AI is actually pretty solid as well. I love how when you've spotted an enemy, they won't come out of the same cover in the same spot to shoot at you, and while actually re-locate and try to catch you open.

      We also come with some great characters. Cole and his faithful sidekick Zeke, who fills in as comic relief and later on a big source of Coles worries. These two have some absolutely wonderful interactions with each other. What I ahve said up to this point applies to both games. So I guess I'll go into some of the reasons I pick Infamous 1 over 2 as the better game.

      The big reason is the Villains. All three villains in the first game are absolutely wonderful. Kessler being a personal favorite, and one of the best final boss's in any game I have ever played. That final fight felt like it was the final fight. That's a feeling I don't get from a lot of games. Kessler really was the best part of this entire series. The villains, while still good in 2, lacked in comparison.

      The big thing on two, however, that almost won it out was an absolutely wonderful ending. There were two differnt ones, neither of which could really be considered a 'good' or 'bad' ending, though both of which carry a certain level of sadness that I loved. I won't spoil it for you guys who haven't played it, but god it was a wonderful way to end it. I'll just say I'm glad the new Infamous game seems like it's a different continuity from the first two. :p

      One last think I'll bring up though is the thing that keeps this from being higher. This is a game that I think is actually hurt by the moral choice system it implements. While two handled it better, Cole always seemed like a guy with a predetermined personality, so the choices didn't really make sense. Worse yet you get choices that the only reason you would make is for the pure purpose of being a dick, which really doesn't set in well with the vibe of the game. So yeah, the moral choices I feel do more to damage the narrative then anything else. Likely would have been 2-3 places higher on the list had they dropped it.

Ok inFamous I'm legitimately surprised over being so high. I do think the first one is a very good game. It was the first PS3 exclusive that didn't have the hype, anticipation, or expectations of the console wars riding on it. It was just a good summer AAA title that delivered. The more you think about it, the more you appreciate how it handled everything right, from action combat to open-world exploration to a super hero narrative.

I'm just not sure if it's a top 50 game? It's cool it made that impression on some people, though.

I've only played around half of the first Infamous game. I got it free with the old PSN outage debacle a couple of years ago. I thought it was pretty good. A decent attempt at a superhero game. I agree with Bolivar that I wouldn't have it that high up on an all-time greatest games list... but hey ho, it's all about personal opinion, I suppose.

Infamous is an odd game for me, I really enjoyed it - Platinum'ed it, no less - yet I couldn't shake the feeling that almost every concept was simply taken from another game. Despite this, much like Warzone 2100 took a dozen concepts from different games and was great, inFamous manages to put it all together in a way that works well for it. Still, no matter how hard I look at the game, and how much I enjoyed playing it, I just didn't feel it ever had that moment where it went from a really good, enjoyable game to a game I want everyone else to play because it's just that amazing.

It makes it very hard to judge because of all this.

And now for a fan favorite game amongst the more well traveled JRPG gamers among us, and one virtually none of you heathans have played!

30. Breath of Fire 3
      It was only a matter of time before I reached an entry in the Breath of Fire series. I'll get right into the best thing about this game, The Master System. This is a system in which you apprentice your characters to masters which alters their Per-level stat growth, as well as the option of learning new abilities. There is a lot of realistic party customization this offers while keeping your characters unique. There are a few ways to abuse the system though, but hey nothings perfect. :p

      The characters and visuals are all great as well. I love all the different dragon transformations you have access too, though by end game you'll pretty much only be using Kaiser if you figured it out. Still, there is a lot of variety within your own dragon transformations until that point.

      I love watching the changes to your party as time progress's. One thing this game does great is showing your main character to have a strong personality, even though he remains a Silent Protagonist the whole game. You really start feeling him grow as an individual and by games end, that really helps the conclusion of everything to feel satisfying.

29. Brigandine: Legend of Forsena
      Once again is a game that didn't get much attention at all when it had come out. Brigandine is an SRPG in which a continent has delved into war, though you actually get to select the country you take control of. Each one comes with it's own sets of generals and recruit able units, so your choice has a big effect on your strategy.

      I love how in this game you can understand every countries reasons for being involved, and on some level you can even agree with all of their reasoning. You do have Iscallio as the odd man out here, but that country has many of it's own reasons to be absolutely wonderful. I'll avoid in depth analysis of every country though. :p

      The story going on is great as well when you see the hands working in the shadows behind the start of the war, and the endings you can achieve are wonderful, especially if you know the way to get the extended endings for each country. You never really get the full story behind Bulniol though, but in the end it's a bit like Arek from Lufia. Even without the full explanation, the stories told are wonderful. There was Brigandine Grand Edition, but it never got a US release so I won't be taking that into account.

      What really cinches this game is though is the battle system. I absolutely love the use of a Hex Grid in favor of the typical square grid for the map. It adds quite a bit to strategy with the new positioning options it offers. In addition the Rune Knights, or your generals, use monsters under their command. Generals very not only in stats and combat ability, but the size of their squad and how far their Rune Field is, which is how far out their monsters go without weakening.

      Seriously, it's one of the best uses of a typical SRPG combat, and a lot of great stories and characters to be told. If you ever get the chance, play this one.

Intriguing! It's one of the many Japanese PSN releases that a fan can only hope comes over here...

It's great how each country, when you play their stories, has a unique piece games plot, so you actually don't learn everything until you play through every countries story too. :p

...I'll try to keep this short too so the thread can go on. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I would need to know what these "half decent RPGs" were because once you drop FF and other fan favorites like BoF, Suikoden, MegaTen, and Persona, it seems to me all that is left is Tales and a few dungeon cralwers like Etrian Odyssey.

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Ar Tonelico, Baten Kaitos, Skies of Arcadia, Star Ocean 1 and 4, Luminous Arc 1 + 2 and Valkyria Chronicles 2 to name a few (plus some of the FFs). Not all fan favourites perhaps, but I never said that. Not all of them are "bad", but certainly not that good either and most of the casts are kinda poor - especially compared to the later Tales of games. Many random and less known titles still make up over half the RPGs I've played. :p ...and there are a few other titles that I thought of mentioning, but won't - at least not now - for the sake of the thread since they might result in even more discussion. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

My issue is that I don't find the characters too engaging, they may use a new spin on old cliches but by this point in time after playing the genre for well over ten years, I'm just sick of the cliches themselves.

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Well, I don't mind cliches that much as long as they work - so I disagree. But that's me - not much to say other than "personal preferences". And hey - pretty much all the FF games use cliches too, though it might be to a slightly less extent. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

It doesn't but it has to bring something that really sets it apart and while the Tales games have a battle system, I prefer a complete package, especially if I'm going to elevate something to 'great" status and I just feel the Tales series doesn't have that. Beyond their combat system, I don't feel their is anything that makes them truly stand out.

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Aside from the fact that I absolutely love the casts in the Tales of Games, it is mostly the combat that really stands out to me as well. But combat usually makes up most of the gameplay in RPGs and I consider Tales of to be the best Action JRPG series, packed with the best JRPG gameplay second only to SO3. VP2's gameplay comes pretty close though.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Something that actually changes how I think both in terms of game design and in dealing with characters and stroies. A game that alters how I feel falls into the "non-junk food" a game should have a lasting impact even after you shut it off and for me, Tales doesn't really have it.

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Ah, alrighty. To be honest, only a few of the FFs had that kind of lasting impact on me, while Abyss and Symphonia both had it and to a greater extent than any FF. It's more of a "wow, playing this game was awesome" feeling than a "wow, that was some deep stuff" thing though. But that's the way I like it.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I disagree, while Tales of certainly has nice desings, the anime designs don't lend itself well especially in a market that is increasingly using the style. FF may have some ugly desing choices but it at least stands out. Then again, I tenbd to favor stylized designs like Amano and Tatsuya Yoshikawa

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I actually meant to even say "character design and personalities". But I doubt that changes anything. I like the anime styles though, so yeah. :p

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Depends on your poison, while I like Tales of gameplay, I'm not a fan of Action RPGs so I would favor FF in most cases on this point.

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I'm more of a fan of Action RPG battle systems than turn-based myself, so yeah.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Well the series does have a monopoly on that element, its hard to find composers on par with Nobuo Uematsu.

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Yups.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Compared to Tales of, yes I would agree.

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:monster:

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

While I can agree that fun gameplay is important, story tends to be my other factor over character design, I usually don't give a damn about graphics and could care less if the characters look cool or sexy. As long as I like the characters personality I can overlook sub-par design. Tales of is hindered to me by their stories and characters who can never hold my attention for long. To me apathy is the clearest sign of dislike for something. Hating a character is fine, at least the writer was able to write someone who could illicit a response from the consumer even if its not what they intented, but not giving a damn about them in the first place is a sign of failure and this is why I don't care for Tales of because they can't illicit anything from me, this is why I don't like FFVII, X, and XIII because I am largely apathetic to them and it hinders my ability to enjoy the games.

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...and I agree with most of that, save the little fact that Tales of DOES work perfectly for me and never makes me apathetic. Plus the fact that I won't deny that I do care quite a bit about the looks of characters too. :p

Edit: OMAIGASH, I USED THAT SMILIE 6 TIMES WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT IT! =O

...I also failed to keep it short. It's somewhat short though - compared to the worst posts. It just has too many quotes.

I have no Idea how these spots will be perceived by you lot. :p

28. Golden Sun DS (NDS)
      This is everything Golden sun should have been. And don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Golden Sun, but this pretty much improved on everything. The biggest improvement being the Djinn set up. Originally, there really wasn't a reason to have a character with anything other then their own element of Djinn, but this one makes it so there are a lot of useful combinations you could configure, giving you a lot of play room for forming your party.

      It also has the series best writing to date, and Alex from the last two games being seriously on form here. OF course, the game is still demonstrably Golden Sun, so I can't really say much else about it I didn't gush about the first game for, so I'll say the one thing that seriously bothered me.

      You know Arcanas is Alex. I figured this out from his Silhouette alone. Yet the entire game they are building up this 'WHO IS THIS!?' vibe, while you the player, assuming you've played the last two, already know this is going to be Alex. So when they make a big deal about it near the end, I just wanted to punch the makes in the face.

27. Earth Bound (SNES)
      Anyone who has played this game knows why it is here. Earthbound is comedy gold, having this weird and trippy world in which you fight everything from deranged hippies to tyrannical piles of vomit. A game built around bizarre Pop Culture References and trout you think they were doing drugs to come up with, Earthbound is definitely a different experience.

      I also loved the rolling health meter, adding a bizarre notion of timing to when you heal in a turn based game. Then there is your cast of characters who are all fun and likable, though the game itself doesn't really flesh any of them out all that much. I admit, the humor value of the game allows me to enjoy it a lot more then it is objectively good, but regardless I love it so.

26.5 Mother 3 (GBA)
      I can't believe I'd originally forgot to include this on the list. I deleted by mistake at one point. Regardless, it just edges out Earthbound for me. While I wasn't a fan of the critical his system that involved you timing your button presses with the background music, the system was pretty solid. While not as funny as Earthbound was, Mother 3 edges out for a much stronger narrative. Of course, the game does have the single funniest and most smurfed up line in the series.

"The good news is we found this Drago tooth, and we can use it to make a powerful weapon. The Bad news is we found it impaled in the chest of your wife."

      I felt I shouldn't have, but I laughed may ass off when the game threw that line at me. That kind of speaks to my sense of humor though. Anyway, back on focus.

      Since the only way to play this game is by fan-translation or speaking Japanese, I'll go ahead and spoil the end fight, because to understand why I love this game you would need to know this. I'll actually spoiler tag it, but I'll say for people who don't' want it spoiled this is the best use of game mechanics I have ever seen used to enhance an emotion in the player, even better then Galuf Vs. Ex-Death if FF V.

(SPOILER)At end game, you finally fight with your brother. As the fight goes on, you character starts occasionally losing actions, and the dialogue you get say's things like your eyes are tearing up, and progressively getting worse. After a while you find your character unable to do anything, and the fight ends when he essentially completely breaks down crying, unable to bring himself to keep fighting. It's smurfing heartbreaking.

I really need to try Golden Sun soon, given that development team's profound impact on me as a kid through Shining Force.

With Camelot and Monolith, it's a wonder Nintendo doesn't have them cranking out RPGs on their main console ever 2-4 years. I'd probably be a nintendo-only gamer if that happened.

Time for another round!

26. Secret of Mana (SNES)
      Those of you who haven’t played Secret of Mana are truly missing out on something wonderful. This is a really fun game, and pretty much the last game on this list that I say is better with a friend (Well, kind of, but we’ll get to that), though even single player is great.

      My first ever Action RPG, this game had me the moment I realized you could switch between weapons. Sounds simple, and not a big deal, but it really added a lot to the gameplay. None of the weapons felt at all alike, though the Spear was my personal favorite. A great way to stay fighting Melee while keeping yourself a safe distance from the enemy.

      The story and characters were decent, though what sells this game are it’s villains, particularly Thanos. Really though most of the boss’s in this game are awesome to fight, and have some amazing visuals. That actually ends up being my favorite part about this game are the boss fights.

      I loved how you needed to use the different weapons and Magic in order to raise your skill in them, meaning your strengths would mirror your play style. Of course you could grind up the skills, which I did, but until you go out of your way to master everything it mirrors your play style. :p

      And no, the Sequel that didn’t get a US release isn’t on this list as I never got the chance to play more then half way through it, so Didn’t think I had place to comment on it. I do intend to play through it one day, as it was freakin’ awesome.

25.Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker (Gamecube)
      This was probably the most under rated Zelda title that has been released for the consoles, and it honestly kind of saddens me. It seems hate for this game died down since it’s release, but there were a lot of people crying fowl on the new art style saying how bad it looked, how cartoonish it looked and how no one could possible take it seriously. And I tell those people to go smurf themselves. This game looks absolutely wonderful.

      It also has one of the better built stories and world of the series, beating out Ocorina. The characters and towns just had more flare and life then OoT did, so you became a lot more invested in the fate of the world. Controls were smoother, and dungeons were better designed. It also had an absolutely wonderful showdown with Gannon, you and Princess Zelda actually working together to take him down.

      I’m glad these days this game gets less flack then when it launched, because it truly was an amazing experience. I remember the first time playing it back at launch how impressed I was with the Shadows of all things. I don’t recall seeing a game that had better shadow effects prior to it. Odd thing to remember, but it’s something that really stuck out in my mind.

      I should bring up the biggest disadvantage of the game. The Sea travel. Mind you, the sea’s and sights looked wonderful, and it controlled very well. The problem comes with just how long the voyages can take. There are points it helps with the feeling that you are really traveling this vast and epic ocean, but too often it just feels like it starts to drag. Even with the Song of Storms to warp you to places, it’s pre-determined locales and you simply pick the one closest to your destination. It helps the tedium of travel, but in the end it wasn’t enough to kill it entirely.

Unfortunately I never actually owned a Gamecube hence I never got to sample Wind Waker. I'm hoping it appears on another platform at some point so I can give it a playthrough.

Secret of Mana was a game I came to quite late but I'm extremely glad that I did. I got a PAL SNES copy on ebay a few years for about £20. I thought this was quite a lot but it was worth every penny. The battle system was excellent and I loved the ring menu system. Even though I only experienced it a few years ago, I remember being very impressed with the music. I couldn't believe the sounds they could get out of that little SNES. I agree the bosses were excellent as well. I seem to remember getting battered by Spiky Tiger I think it was called quite early on in the game. I'll definitely pick it up again for another play at some point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mercen-X

Well, there's no accounting for one man's opinion. This isn't a professional criticism, Neo's entitled to his say. Some people consider Psychonauts to be god's gift to gaming. While I like the game, I certainly wouldn't call it a godsend.

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This ^

And the Psychonauts thing as well. ;/

I don't agree with some of the list like FF IV being so damn low, but afterall at the end of the day, it's one man's opinion.

The fact that septerra core is on this list, period, made me smile.

I just read this now, so I have some catching up to do :p.

I like that you have La Pucelle: Tactics on there. I'm playing it right now and it's a really good, fun game.
I'm sorry to hear you didn't like Final Fantasy II or X. They definitely have their flaws but I still like them and enjoy playing them. Maybe not as much as some of the others, but they're still good games.
I like Final Fantasy VIII. :colbert:
I don't think there's anything wrong with where you placed VII. I actually think it's lower end for a Final Fantasy game. That being said, it's still a Final Fantasy game (I think there's only been one I've played that I didn't like or enjoy in some way) and is still better than some games I've played.
It's also a shame you didn't like Xenogears. I read the game script and the story was very interesting and engaging. I liked a lot of the characters. To tell the truth though, I have since acquired a copy of the game, so I can actually play it, and I never get far before I get bored. Not sure why.
I guess since you recently played the Suikoden games, they probably won't be on your list that you made a few months ago, but this would be high up for me. Well, most of them. I lost most of mine in the move, but I kept II (it was too expensive and rare to lose) and my boyfriend has III, and I bought I back about two days ago. Now I want V, because it was a very good game. Play V, Mike.
I look forward to seeing how high up on the list Final Fantasy IX is :love:.

I was pondering where Suikoden 1 and 2 would be put on the list, but you are right in that it won't be appearing. Anything I played this year won't be. I'm guessing that I would place 1 just ahead of Trinity Universe, which is my 100 Spot, and 2 just past Borderlands 2, replacing it at 66. Perhaps I'd set it higher after my next playthrough of it, which I shall likely embark on soon. :p

And I'm glad to see one of the worlds few remaining Septerra fans here Pauper. :cry:

To the next games!

24. Fallout: New Vegas (PS3/360/PC)
      For all you nay-sayers out there that said I didn’t get the point of a Open World RPG, I use this title to tell you to go smurf yourselves. This has all the things that the big open world RPG’s get praised for, and all of that comes without the need to sacrifice a great plot to do it.

      The opening scene of New Vegas was one of the best openings I have seen in a video game. Benny was absolutely wonderful, and I loved how he actually looked you in the eyes and the dialogue he had before shooting you and burying you. And even though I wanted to make him pay, and I traveled all the way to New Vegas, I couldn’t bring myself to kill Benny. So instead I smurfed him.

      The choices you make in New Vegas really seem to matter as well. There are so many things going on in the world, and at games completion I loved hearing how all of my actions resulted, whether or not it had to do with the main story. This is the most invested I had ever been in an open world RPG.

      And the characters were terrific. While a personal favorite is Veronica, I give major props to Arcade Gannon for having the best endings in the game, as no matter what you do in some way or another Gannon shows himself to be a freakin’ bad ass. Best part? Both gay Characters, and in no way were they shown in a stereotypical light.

      And yes, while the game is glitchy as all hell, it doesn’t stop the gameplay from being really solid. Like any open world game, you are given a ridiculous amount of customization over your character, and the Perk System was wonderful. Don’t get me wrong, a smart player will figure out easy ways to abuse the system, but at the very least it comes with a lot of thought and planning to do so, and isn’t something you’re going to just pull off right out of the gate. (Well, at least I didn’t).

      All the weird things of New Vegas to discover were wonderful too. I think I had the most fun traveling through the Vault where you discovered some everyone in it had died, and there was some kind of Civil War going on over sacrifices being made to the Computer to keep food and water coming. I won’t spoil it, but dear god was it hilarious and smurfed up when you get to the bottom and find out what happened.

      In short, greatest of the Open World RPG genre, even if you didn’t like Elder Scrolls, much like myself, this is a great one to go check out.

23. Rune Factory 3 (DS)
      This is a game whose focus is farming and getting married, as well as finding out who you are and why you are here because of your amnesia. And there’s some pretty solid dungeon crawling gameplay! And if you are not already fascinated by the concept, I can’t say I’m surprised cause it sounds smurfing awful. Really, Rune Factory and Harvest Moon on a whole are almost impossible to make sound enjoyable.

      What I could start with is saying there is a big variety of crops to grow! Though that really does nothing to help sell this game to people who don’t already enjoy the series. The combat is really good though! But in the end when compared with games with a combat focus it doesn’t amount to much more then functional and a bit quirky, but there really isn’t a game out there it beats out, so you can’t really use this as a major selling point either.

      Rune Factory just has this bizarre nature to it that you get in to your role as this farmer/Monster Fighter/Family man. Where this game shines more then any other in the series, however, is the quality of the writing. Every relationship you build in this game feels genuine and is fun. You play as a guy who is actually, personality wise, a very normal guy. He is pretty much the only normal person though, and he’s dropped in this world of these strange and bizzare people.

      As your relationships build, he begins accepting the bizarre nature however, and while he retains his own normality, fit’s in very well in this land of weirdo’s and crazies. And better yet none of them are just weird, they have a lot of personality to them. Some of their stories can even be down right sad and depressing. This is likely the only game I have ever played in which I can honestly say I don’t dislike a single character, and considering the massive cast that’s impressive. And I believe it was twelve of which of them are marry-able!

      The story is actually pretty good too. There is an actually over-arching plot going on that, while nothing amazing, does a good job at keeping you interested in progressing the story, and adding to the over all feel and flavor of the world.

Benny... I had the poor bastard crucified. I was so very hungry for revenge after he smurfed me over twice but I felt a bit guilty seeing him up on the cross. On the other hand, having his suit was pretty ring-a-ding, baby. :)

As for Veronica and Arcade, they were good characters first and that they were homosexual was secondary. Great writing. It was also cool that you could make your own character gay. Actually, maybe you could make them bi too, I never tried.

22. Demon’s Souls (PS3)
      This game reminded me of something very personal about myself, something I had started to forget in the gaming landscape of the time. What it reminded me of was I was a masochist who reveled at the sight of my own suffering. ANd Demon’s Souls was a harsh and wonderful mistress indeed. This game would never relent, for any reason.

      Then there is the level design. Beginning to end this game holds a dark and dreary atmosphere that really draws you in. And I can’t think of anything in the game that doesn’t look, at the very least, above average.

      Now, I admit to being a bit unfair in this games high ranking, as I was sold on the incredible difficulty of the game. This comes with the game having a way of being pure frustrating at times, though it’s not often the game feels just plain unfair (Though the Poison Swamps are nothing more then a pain in the ass.) The controls can feel stiff and unresponsive at times as well, though nothing terrible.

      Then the lack of story. Mind you, the story isn’t bad, it just ends up feeling like it’s not important. That really get’s bothersome with the world shifting alignment based on your actions. It’s an very difficult aspect to control, as it’s affected by your mortality rate, which is garunted to be high. Still though, I forgive these flaws and look fondly upon a game that didn’t try to holding your hand through the game and gave you an experience no other game was offering at the time.

21. Muramasa (Wii)
      This game is best described as poetry in motion. The animations and models are all absolutely wonderful in this game, and is a prime example of how Art Design will always beat out graphics. With their unique style, Vanillaware gives us one of the best experiences of this console generation.

      Showing their is still some life left in the genre of the side scroller, Muramasa tells the story of two separate people who, for one reason or another, are fighting against all forms of man and demon. The stories are very intriguing and characters are well written.

      There are a lot of fun ways to upgrade your weapon based off your playstyle. True, the difference isn’t huge, but still noticeable and appreciated. Most of the difference comes between the two characters more so then the weapon selection you go with. This keeps both stories enjoyable to play though.

      There are a total of 3 endings for each character, the second un lockable ending being a personal favorite for each character. The game also includes a a varied amount of levels, a few of which have some fun and unique way’s to progress compared to others, though they don’t really do much to change up the gameplay. Mind you, the gameplay is fun enough it does not really need much to change it up. If you have a Wii, get this game. It was absolutely wonderful.

Woo, top 20, here we come!

I put DS on my top 10 ps3 games. It came at a time when ps3 fans were admittedly hurting for RPGs and I kinda overdelvered. I dont really vibe with action rpg's, I prefer classic, tactical gameplay but this one brought me back to ghouls n ghosts in my genesis days. Its all about learning a level, mastering the system, and the reward of a challenge. The dungeons were also well done with puzzles, traps, levers and creepy stuff like a claustrophobic cavern with a giant fire slug filling it up and slowly squirming towards you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Woo, top 20, here we come!

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Part of me is excited to see if there will be another 20 games that you have not played! :excited:

Also....

:bou:Quick notes on games I forgot to list and about where they would be ----

:bou:Saints Row 2 + 3 : smurfing hilarious, and great story. Succeeded where I feel GTA failed. Would probably end up Just after Tekken 3/6 on my list.

:bou:Ace Attorney 1-3: Carried almost soley by the comedy, though the story and figuring out the cases were all fun as well. Amazing cast of characters. Would have been just after Katamari.

I look forward to seeing what the top 10 are. Granted, I don't agree with a lot of the list(particularly about Xenogears which is one of my top 5 RPGs), but I still enjoy seeing views that are so drastically different from my own.

You have a Persona 4 avatar so I'm going to assume that you'll rank that game highly. So we'll agree on that at least. I also liked seeing Mother 3 get some love; kudos to you for that.

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4500/bernkastel3.pnghttp://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3459/yukari1.png
"Ah, Demon's Souls! Brings back fond memories."










http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...RO/Yukari2.pnghttp://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.png
"Wasn't that the game that distracted you
from your plans to destroy humanity or
something? I think I recall there being a
thread about it on villain boards."










http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.pnghttp://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3459/yukari1.png
"Ah... yes... that. You mean this thread, don't you:"










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http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9879/bernkastel1.pnghttp://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3459/yukari1.png
"I think Sauron and Kefka are still pretty
pissed off at me for it. Can't say I blame
them. But I got Dracula to start playing too
so at least someone on there understands."

@Bright Shield - Yeah, I've come to except I'm one of the only people who hates Xenogears. Hell, if I didn't want this thread to be 90% me arguing that I would have kept responding to Wolf. :p

Oh, and Speaking of Dark Souls....

20. Legend of Zelda: Majora’s Mask (N64)
      What you do is Take Ocarina of Time and think about everything in that game that was good. For Majora’s Mask, make all of that even better then it was before. This game was an amazing upgrade to an already solid title, and did a lot to add to the mechanics.

      The big one, of course, was the masks that changed your race. Between Link, The Deku, The Goron, and Zoran you had a lot of different ways link would be played throughout. Not to mention all the effects different masks would offer, even the non transformation ones.

      There are two other things that sold me though. Firstly being the story. The towns and world have never felt as lively in Zelda as they did in Majora’s Mask. It felt like so much more work had gone into making you care about the lives around you, and it really helped to make the plot seem important. Not to mention a great Villain in Majora’s Mask and it’s fairly tragic Puppet. They went a much more original route this run, and I loved the change from Gannon as the villain.

      The other big thing was the Time Travel Mechanic, resetting the world every three days. I had never seen a Mechanic quite like this in a game, and it made sense in terms of story. Hell, it added a lot to the Narrative and Atmosphere. This, for me, was the most unique and refined title offered up by Zelda and a big part was due to this very mechanic.

      Best of all this ending up being the most challenging
Zelda launched. And, of course, a person who enjoys a good challenge this is a big plus for me. So yes, best Zelda game created ever.


19. Dark Souls (PS3/360/PC)
      I admit to probably over-ranking Demon Souls since it came out at a time which I felt there wasn’t really a challenge in the games getting released, but in no way do I feel I am over rating Dark Souls. What this game is gameplay wise is Demon Soul’s with practically all of the systems improved upon and smoothed out.

      In addition the story and world are more detailed and developed then Demons Souls was. There is a lot more personality amongst the NPC’s this time around, though that isn’t may favorite improvement.

      That honor goes to the art design. If I were judging this purely on aesthetic appeal, Dark Soul’s would be the number one on my list. There is not a single place in this game that doesn’t look wonderful. So much variety and color compared to the last game, and still manages to create a better atmosphere and feel. A personal favorite monster design is tied between the Maw Dragon and what I dub the most awkward boner I’ve ever gotten, Chaos Witch Quelaag.

      Even the equipment upgrade system became better, being more user friendly then It was before. The difficulty is still very high, yet unlike Demon Soul’s it never feels like the game was being cheap and unfair. Then there is one more odd thing to note on this game, and that is the community.

      I have never scene such a nice community in an online game in my life. So willing to help people out, and more so then necessary. All you need to do in the online is assist people in progressing the level, yet this guy just gives me a +5 Lighting weapon. The online guys even put themselves in harms way prior to you. Usually to detriment of themselves. True, if you die when summoning mission ends, but it’s not like they get anything if they die either. There is this odd comradely that comes from the games difficulty, and it’s smurfing wonderful. Get this trout now.

^I definitely agree with Majora's Mask being the best Zelda game.

It's cool to have views that are different from everyone else as well. I get crap once in a while for saying that Devil Survivor 2 is the best strategy RPG ever. Even though barely anyone has played the game. If we all agreed, there would be nothing to talk about.

18. Your Mom
      This game is a huge guilty pleasure for me. It’s pretty universally detested, and for fair reason. There isn’t really much at all to like here. Still though, it has kind of this bizarre charm for me. I’ll do my best to explain it.

      Compared to a lot of other games I’ve listed, this doens’t really pose much of a challenge. Though perhaps that’s part of it. When I’ve spent a lot of time putting in the effort of over coming a challenge, sometimes it’s nice to just go in and get it done without hassle.

      There is also a lot there. In terms of shear volume, no game comes close to this one. You could spend hours and hours looking, and never find everything that exists within this games girth. True, most of it is pretty loose and sloppy, part of me can still appreciate it’s existence.

      Really though, the biggest gripe I have is the ending. No matter how you go about it, you never feel satisfied upon completion. Maybe this is because so many other people have done it with no effort, it doesn’t really feel like you’ve accomplished anything. Though still, when you’re out of other things to do, at least it’s always ready and available for you to give it a spin.

Fine, no one play along with my April Fools. :cry:

18. Dark Cloud 2/Chronicles (PS2)
      Okay Level 5, I love you guys. This is one of the best development studios out right now, and even their games that don’t go over to well still get praised for trying new and unique things. And for me, Dark Cloud 2 is the greatest game they have launched. In so many ways this game is absolutely brilliant. Though not to say it’s flawless by any means.

      The Story is an interesting one to judge. The overall plot is pretty good, but nothing great. Where this game shines are the story arc’s presented in each area. The restoration of the origin points of things in the future is just wonderful, and do so much to flesh out the world it takes place in. The highlight for me being Crest, The Great Sage. Not only does it perfectly paint why Crest was so revered in the future, and just why so many people cared about him, but it comes with a big twist at the end of the arc.

      The town building you do to restore the Origin Points is also wonderful. You don’t have as much freedom to do whatever you want with the town as I would have liked, as you need to restore certain features, but still it’s so fun creating the towns and gathering recruits.

      This game is full of all sorts of trout to do. You have your Town Building, Fishing minigames, Fish Raising, Spheda, Weapon Synthesizing, and the normal gameplay itself. And all of this is fun. This is a long ass game with a lot to do to keep you occupied. And there’s benefits for doing all of them as well, giving you some incentive!

      If there is something about the game that holds it back, however, it’s not very balanced between your characters. Mostly the Ridepod is able to handle pretty much every situation the game could possibly throw at you. Compare that to Monica’s Transformations, which are just pathetic. Melee weapon between Max and Monica is debatable as to whose could be better, but Max’s Gun is far superior to Monica’s Magic Armlet.

      Still though, the con’s aren’t really to big of a deal, and the positives are huge. I’ll be happy if this ever get’s a PSN launch.

17. :bou:Dragon Quest V: Hand of the Heavenly Bride (DS)
      This right here is DQ at it’s finest. The Idea of the story being so vast it takes place from the time you are a child who can’t even read, all the way up until you have children of your own was wonderful. This game get’s credit just for having such a big Idea and implementing it well.

      I do specify the ‘Hand of the Heavenly Bride’ due to having once played the non-DS remake on a fan translation I barely made it into before losing interest. Not because it was bad by any means, I just had things going on at the time. Plus the new bride is awesome. :love:

      Anyway, one thing I loved is being able to capture all the different monsters of the world to form your parties. Hell, I even liked how various creatures had level limits imposed on them. You’ll find yourself constantly updating your party, yet there still remains a lot of options on how to build it.

      There was never really a huge twist as far as plot goes, but that’s not to say it’s not good. Plenty of enjoyable characters, appropriately evil villains, no plot holes I can think of, and well executed, the story accomplishes all that it needs too.

      And the puns are smurfing hilarious to me. When I reached The Abby of the Above, I almost peed myself in laughter when I spoke to The Nuns of the Above. These games just revel in how delightfully cheesy their puns are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

18. Your Mom
This game is a huge guilty pleasure for me. It’s pretty universally detested, and for fair reason. There isn’t really much at all to like here. Still though, it has kind of this bizarre charm for me. I’ll do my best to explain it.

Compared to a lot of other games I’ve listed, this doens’t really pose much of a challenge. Though perhaps that’s part of it. When I’ve spent a lot of time putting in the effort of over coming a challenge, sometimes it’s nice to just go in and get it done without hassle.

There is also a lot there. In terms of shear volume, no game comes close to this one. You could spend hours and hours looking, and never find everything that exists within this games girth. True, most of it is pretty loose and sloppy, part of me can still appreciate it’s existence.

Really though, the biggest gripe I have is the ending. No matter how you go about it, you never feel satisfied upon completion. Maybe this is because so many other people have done it with no effort, it doesn’t really feel like you’ve accomplished anything. Though still, when you’re out of other things to do, at least it’s always ready and available for you to give it a spin.

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Personally I thought Your Sister was much better. Don't get me started on Your Dad though, he handles so well.

Dark Cloud 2 and DQV are both awesome games. I'm starting to agree with this list a bit more as you work your way to the top.

After playing the excellent Dragon Quest 4, I wasn't quite ready for what I found in DQ5. First of all both the DS and the SNES version share the disappointment in hardly surpassing their predecessor technologically at all, the latter of which was coming off an NES game for crying out loud. The sound also is incredibly uninspiring for me, and I'm a massive fan of the soundtracks. And whereas DQ4 is filled to the brim with fresh ideas, unconventional gameplay and endless distractions, none of this is present in DQ5. The casino is easily the most generic in the series and you can tell how hard they failed with the monster recruiting considering they gave it up halfway through and revert to patty's pub as some kind of half asst apology to dq3 fans. And it doesn't help that in a series infamous for its predictable plots, the most shocking plot twist they could muster (SPOILER)*gasp* you're not the legendary hero! is marred by the most predictable counter-plot twist imaginable (SPOILER)your son's the legendary hero. But this game didn't just fail because it stayed within the DQ boundaries, it actually failed for trying to deviate from the formula as well. Each part of the story ends with an "emotional moment" that, for all its 2d charm, just falls flat. Maybe it's because I played FFVI and Chrono Trigger beforehand, games which embodied the 16-bit emotional setpiece moment, but I just couldn't empathize with any of DQV's forced attempts to pull it off. In the Zenithian Trilogy, you have a game with a captivating character chapter system, a game with an addictive character class system, and a subpar disappointment sandwiched between them, with its vanilla "we got nothin" character system and a trout-ass plot to boot.

For real, smurf this game, smurf Neocracker, smurf Yuji Horii and the next sixteen non-FFVII entries on this terrible garbage of a list.

Gooooood.

I've tried Your Mum (that's the spelling of the game title over here) and it was a terrible experience. It's very, very rare that I would quit so early into a game but it was so unsatisfying I was getting the feeling it would scar me for life. Gives 'sandbox' a whole new meaning. Award Guy plays Your Sister all the time, but he never lets me have a go. :(

Was going to make a comment on your daughter but I think that was a little too out of line.

Dark Cloud 2 was a great game. I'm happy to see it so high up on the list.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Gooooood.

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Check the date on my post please!

I know the date, I'd just been waiting for a good chance to use that clip. :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

19. Dark Souls (PS3/360/PC)
    
I have never scene such a nice community in an online game in my life. So willing to help people out, and more so then necessary. All you need to do in the online is assist people in progressing the level, yet this guy just gives me a +5 Lighting weapon. The online guys even put themselves in harms way prior to you.

---

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/3152/rider4.pnghttp://img217.imageshack.us/img217/9879/bernkastel1.png
"Wow, does this mean..."










http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7483/rideri.png
"My favourite aspect of the online play
is invading newbies and pushing them off
high cliffs, if that's what you're getting at."
"...right. Nevermind."

Pft, whatever, she was probably the one who gave me the sword. :love:

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4500/bernkastel3.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.png
"Ridiculous! I'd never..."










http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5144/rydia1.pnghttp://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.png
"Hey, wait a second... I do
remember you giving away
a +5 sword a long time ago."










http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.pnghttp://img29.imageshack.us/img29/4355/rydia3.png
"Okay, the sword was just slowing me down
so I had to get rid of it anyway. And...
I accidently pressed the wrong buttons
...and stuff. It was early in the morning
and I, er... just wasn't thinking straight."










http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5144/rydia1.pnghttp://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4500/bernkastel3.png
http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.png
"Daaaaaw, Bern's getting soft!"










http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/5144/rydia1.pnghttp://img717.imageshack.us/img717/2938/mio1.png
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1989/bernkastel2.png
"Shut up, or I'll rip you a new one
with my Fire Great Scythe +10!"

In her defense, this game is crueler and sadistic to it's players then any invading player could hope to be. The only thing one could do is assist another player in an attempt to spite the game itself. I mean if you run around screwing with other players all you are doing is doing what the game wants you to do anyway. And regardless, you pushing similarly leveled players off Cliffs is nothing compared to walking down an area near beginning game to get one shot by a giant armored man with a sword three times your size and moves faster then you. But since talk seems focused on Dark Souls, which is already a massive ongoing thread, I'll jump to the next set early!

16.Wild Arms ‬2 (‬PSX)
      This is the high point of the Wild Arms series for me. There has never been an RPG that so wonderfully captures a Wild West feel like this game did. Even among the quality of the series, this stands out as the most appealing and unique from a purely aesthetic stand point. There really isn’t a game out there that possesses a feel quite like this one.

      Also one of the best stories of the PSX era of gaming, there is a wonderful twist that comes near games end about the origin’s of the villain group Odessa. I wasn’t really fond of who the end boss ended up being, if only because there was this odd mix of him being set up for the position of end boss, yet didn’t really have an effect on the story overall. Still though, not letting that hiccup ruin an overall wonderful experience.

      It may be fairly typical in terms of gameplay, but the FP system used in favor of TP was fun, as well as two of your characters able to customize the growth of their ARMS abilities. As well you have Tim’s unique premise of having abilities that are altered by not only his own equipped guardian, but allies as well. So it may do a bit of an old school formula, it does it well with fun variation thrown in to keep it entertaining and new.

      Also the game has some very well made puzzle maps, and I felt that it was like the 3D version of what had been done with Lufia 2, and done very well. I kind of miss such well designed puzzle dungeons, but alas, it may just be a pipe dream.

      If I were to pick a highlight, it’s the resolution to Brad Evan’s story. He comes to his own conclusions about what a Hero really is, what it means, and it’s relevance. It sounds clique’d, but it’s a take that makes a hell of a lot of sense, and you don’t really see come up. Not to mention Kaanon has a wonderful history and character. The game can feel a bit dated today, but not by much. And hey, it’s available on PSN if you are an RPG fan who hasn’t checked it out yet!


15. Ogre Battle: ‬March of the Black Queen (‬SNES)
      I will put this out here and now, no game has ever done a morality system better then Ogre Battle. Yes, there is some flaws in it’s execution, but I absolutely love the mix of Alignment (How good and evil you are), Reputation (How Good and evil the world perceives you), and Charisma. As it should be, so much get’s factored into it, and it works a hell of a lot better then a simple binary good and evil scale. The only game that even starts to come close I’ve played is New Vegas and it’s Karma for different areas and factions.

      This is going to be a bit odd when compared to other games this high on the list, but this game doesn’t really do to well with characters. No one really get’s much spotlight outside of a few villains. The feel for the world however is very well done, and you get a lot of that from liberating towns across the different maps and seeing what the villagers thing of what’s going on. The story, on a whole, is pretty simple but very well told.

      This game get’s by almost purely on gameplay though. There isn’t another game out there like Ogre Battle I’ve scene, and that saddens me greatly. Cause as wonderful as it is, there is a lot that can be improved upon, but I digress. The gameplay really helps to make you feel as if you are a commander of the army, the leader.

      So many options exist for army creation, and there exists very few units that are usable that don’t have use of some kind. The maps are fun, and even very challenging from Zenobia onward.

      And get this, 13 different endings. For an SNES game, that is insane. Based of the Morality system mentioned earlier, characters collected, and mystic artifacts recovered, it’s wonderful to see all the different ways your rebellion turns out. The very first one for me was taking over only to get assassinated by the original exiled prince. :cry:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shauna

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Woo, top 20, here we come!

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Part of me is excited to see if there will be another 20 games that you have not played! :excited:

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So far!

20 - Not played
19 - Not played
18 - Not played
17 - Not played
16 - Not played
15 - Not played

:D

Okay BoB, you need to make a list of all the games on this you have played. :p

Cause The rest aren't likely to be on that list, outside a couple. :P

144. Twisted Metal 2 (PS1) - Pretty sure I played
143. Twisted metal Black (PS2) - Might have played
141. Cool Spot (Genesis) - Pretty sure I played
140. The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim (PS3/360/PC) - Definitely played
135. Pokemon (Any of them) - Definitely played
133. Mortal Kombat 3 (SNES) - Played on a different console than SNES.
132. Street Fighter 2 (SNES) - Might have played
129. Final Fantasy VII - Definitely played
127. Civilization (PC) - Definitely played
126.5. Mario Kart 64 (N64) - Definitely played
123. Warcraft 2 - Definitely played
122. Starcraft - Played a few matches
121. Diablo 2 - Definitely played
113. Goldeneye 007 (N64) - Definitely played
103. Toejam and Earl 2: Panic on Funktron (Genesis) - Definitely played
102. Valkyria Chronicles (PS3) - Played the demo for about five minutes :p
90. Twisted Metal 3 (PSX) - Might have played
87. Dragon Age: Origins - Definitely played
80. Super Smash Brothers Brawl (Wii) - Played a bit when Lev brought it over
75. Tekken 3/6 (PS1/PS3) - Might have played 3.
73. Batman: Arkham Asylum - Definitely played
72. Batman: Arkham City - Definitely played
50. Kingdom Hearts (PS2) - Played about five minutes
44. Final Fantasy V (SNES) - Definitely played
37. Final Fantasy IV (SNES) - Definitely played
31. Infamous (PS3) - Definitely played
27. Earthbound (SNES) - Might have played

EDIT: So about 18 definites. :p

...Only 27?

I know there will be at least two more, but hell man, catch up!

I think for the most part it comes down to not having the time and money you have, nor the same desire to play certain games. I definitely don't have a major interest in fighting games, for example, and you have a fair number of them in there. It probably doesn't help much that Nintendo barely featured in my youth. I grew up on PC and SEGA consoles before moving to PlayStation.

While I have owned every console since SNES/Genisis, minus only a couple. :p

Well, and no XBOX, but I had a few friends with one. ;P

Like I said, I didn't have access to that kind of money. :p

Mine was more years of devoting way to much to my games then quantities of money. :p

And a few friends in the SNES, NES, PSX and some of the PS2 days. Having a small group of geeks goes a long way for spreading some gaming love without hitting your pockets too hard. :p

I actually think Heroes of Might & Magic is kinda similar to Ogre Battle; although there seem to be no story consequences, the way you wage your campaign does impact certain karma systems that relate back to gameplay. It's still an exceptionally unique game with a lot of complex systems, so complex I've never finished it because I think I screwed my stats up. But the big chunk I got through was awesome. The game does suffer from having almost no story, though, being told from the occasional character portrait dialogue I believe. That's why I think this game could use a remake more than any other property Square owns, since not only could we have a full Matsuno story to it, but the systems could certainly be revamped and explained and executed a little better.

To throw my genuine two cents in on Dragon Quest V, it was my #2 RPG the last time we did top ten lists, and the best 2D RPG I've ever played. It nails everything Dragon Quest does right (game balance, novel puzzles, fun dungeons) arguably better than ever but really made a compelling story, starting from your characters birth, his childhood into his adulthood and establishment of a family. This game also made my jaw drop on a few occasions because I couldn't believe they were taking the RPG genre, much less Dragon Quest, to the levels they did, with some very dark subject matter. Even though I have it ahead of DQVIII on my list, I'm interested in going back to that game to see how it holds up, because it was just so well done, I wouldn't be surprised if it edges it out.

Point taken on Heroes, I completely spaced that series of games. :p

I've only played III, and a bit of V, though they would be on the lower end of 100 if I included them. Though yeah, probably the most comparable.

And I whole heatedly agree on it benefiting greatly from a remake.

Dragon Quest V really is close to a flawless game. I've only played the SNES version, but I really can't think of any significant flaws of the game. Anything I can come up with would just be nitpicking.

14. Shin Megami Tensai: Devil Survivor (DS)
      This is a game that really showed this generation the RPG’s were strongest on the hand helds. Devil Survivor was a big game with a lot of content both story wise and gameplay wise. And it has a very fun take on your typical SRPG gameplay.

      Most resembling Bahamut Lagoon with it’s unit based movement around a grip map, this game gives you a lot more abilities to play with. From fighting at a range at the cost of counter attacks, customizable units, and a variety of movement effects you will never get bored discovering new tactics to overcome your foes.

      With Yuzu being the only exception, the cast is wonderful. It’s hard to find a game that has this much character depth with people like Haru, Gin, and Atsuro. And if I had to pick a favorite moment, and I admit this comes from my dislike of Yuzu, when Yuzu makes some kind of flippant comment about Midori being an Otaku, Atsuro just has this momentary freak out on her. And it was freakin’ hilarious.

      But yeah, considering the nature of the plot, the world basically being caught in a war between Angel’s and Demon’s, but your characters role in all this means that you have a huge say in the course of events, and you get to choose between a fair amount of endings. All of them a pretty awesome, and I get a huge kick out of Yuzu’s, if only because once again, I don’t like her, and it’s pretty damn obvious what will happen if you listen to her from the Get go.

13. Odin Sphere (PS2)
      This game is the greatest thing to have ever happened to side scrolling. I could end this description right here and be happy with it, but I’m sure I’d get pestered for an explanation, so I guess I can go into detail.

      You play through the stories of five different people, all of which with unique stories and play styles, all of which build up to the finale. If I were to pick the weakest story it would be Velvet’s, but even then it’s great.

       Gameplay is smooth and fast. Different spells for each character, as well as different speeds, weapons, and other abilities keep everyone feeling different, as well as a good variety within the individual characters. Gwendolyn, from a gameplay stand point, was probably my favorite to play as. Other then always being a fan of spear type weapons, her gliding was fun and very useful in battles if used right. Least favorite was Oswald, as I didn’t really care for his dark from shennanagins.

      Story wise the high point is really hard to decide, though I think I will go with Cornelius’s story. I loved learning of the war with Titania, as well as the book of transformations. It played out wonderfully. Of course, no part of the story compares with the end.

      No game I have played has done such a good job at making you feel like the world was coming to an end. The Atmosphere and design of everything was nothing short of magnificent. The armies of hell, raging inferno, the raging Cauldron, everything just added up to one of the greatest moments in gaming. Even in lieu of everything else this game does, this alone would have placed this game on my list somewhere. Conveniently everything else was wonderful too. :P

14 - Not played
13 - Not played

Devil Survivor and Odin Sphere are both amazing games. I do prefer Devil Survivor 2 to either of them though.

12. Breath of Fire 2 (SNES)
      This game is old school JRPG perfection to me. Of course for this to make sense you would have to know what I view as old school. Predetermined classes, leveling to unlock abilities, interchangeable parties. Breath of Fire 2 hadn’t really done anything mechanic’s wise that other games haven’t done. What it did do, however, was do them better then any other.

      No party member is useless in this game, outside of arguably Jean and Spar, but even Spar has some decent spells, and it’s possible to make it pretty beastly if you give him the bonus spells from nomanda and the guy in your town that teaches magic. Even the simple act of being able to adjust party form can adjust your strategies.

      And given how old this game is, I’m going to go ahead and spoil a bit of this, I loved the reveal the church of St. Eva was behind it. Throughout the game, it does an absolutely fantastic job at showing you the reach and effect the church has in the land, and the moment you realize the church’s god is evil as smurf, you think back and realize just what this means. It’s actually kind of frightening when the hold this place has on the world actually sinks in.

      Not so difficult now, it was actually one of, if not the, most difficult RPG of the SNES era, beaten out by only games like Ogre Battle. Difficulty aside though, the gameplay is really only going to appeal you if you’re like me and love the old school gameplay. Great designs and story arcs, there is virtually nothing I dislike about this game.


And now, my response to Wolf Kanno in terms of character arcs of Breath of Fire 2 Vs. Xenogears! Let’s try to keep the discussion limited to this though. :p

What I will do here is compare character to character by the ones who had the most similar and comparable story arcs!

Ryu Vs. Fei - Okay I will start by saying Ryu was handled wonderfully for a silent character. You got a real feel for the guys personality and strength. But, in the end, I’m giving this to Xenogears. Fei was handled marvelously, and my dislike for the game won’t take away from the fact he was one of the best written leads of any RPG. Even if he was kind of an idiot.

Rand Vs. Bart - This pair was picked because both characters have the most arcs in the game devoted to their story. There’s the initial arc, an arc that shows up around the middle, and then a finish at the end. In terms of devoted time, they probably have the most of any side character in their respective games, and is one of the better handled ones in each as well.

However, this one goes to Rand for me. The reason being is by the end of Bart’s arc, I didn’t feel I really learned more about what kind of person he was. All of his motivations pretty much made sense by the end of his first arc of story. Rand seems to both grow more as a character, and become more complex as time goes on with his arc, as well as a much more emotional ending at the Church of St. Eva.

Nina Vs. Elly: I’ll start by saying Elly had some good arcs and premises with her character, and for the most part it was very well handled. That was, until, Disk two happened. We never get to see how she rose to be the hope of all those people, we are just told ‘it totally happened’. That seemed to be the big pay off her arc was building towards, and it’s another thing the games unfortunate cut’s dropped.

Now, in spite of that, even if the arc was fully developed, this would still go to Nina. The reason is Nina shows so much conviction in everything she does, every part of her arcs feel like the matter, and completely invest you.

Bow Vs. Billy: This was paired because the plight of both characters served more to expose the problems that were plaguing the world around you. Billy’s exposed the church, Bow’s exposed there was even something going on at all.

Just in terms of how well that was executed, it goes to Bow. I love how his opening bit started so much more, and grew from that, even if he wasn’t really involved. Billy’s did an alright job, but when you learn the church on a whole is a front, it’s pretty much immediately destroyed by Solaris.

In terms of pay off, you have Bow finishing his work with Trout, the story that got him into the mess in the first place, and then rejoining the group now that he realizes the extent of the problem. Comparably Billy was firing his dad. Now, this could have been a close call, except for once again Xenogears kills the moment. When it starts setting in that the attack should actually have killed Billy’s dad, he just walks in and goes, ‘oh I’m fine, I fixed that quirk a while ago.’ The game litterly goes, ‘He’s dead......NOT!’ in the span of 1-2 minutes.

Point for this one goes to Bow.

Sparr Vs. Esmarelda: Both of these characters have pretty short arcs, Esmeralda more so then Sparr. This pair was chosen both for this, and the purpose they serve. Not really to expose the problem, but the source causing the Problem. Sparr the Demon sucking life and his origins, and Esmarelda the Nano-Tech that the villain was going to use.

The thing is, assuming Krellian never handed Esmeralda over to you, which wasn’t necessary, what changes? You learn about the machines from Gaspard anyway. Your character already had flashbacks to previous lives, so Esmarelda wasn’t necessary for that. Her inclusion in the story is completely pointless.

Compared to sparr, while minimal, at least feels relevant to reveal something about the plot. So This goes to Spar.

Jean Vs. Rico: While I like Jean, Rico is the better character. That being said, I give this one to BoF as well, for actually Resolving the Jean story. And it was fairly funny.

Katt Vs. Maria: Okay, as a character I love Katt, and her introduction was handled wonderfully, but her arc later was pretty damn lame and badly handled. Maria had a decent intro arc, but for her that was it. So for both quantity of story, and quality of at least the initial arc, Katt wins.

Though even if Maria had more, one thing murdered her arc for me. That thing was Pupu. She’s scared to go out and face the man before her, even though she is the only one who can, and what happens? The comic side relief bunny grows to giant robot size and starts fighting.

Any drama was shot the smurf down.

Citan Vs. Sten: Okay, I like Sten and while his intro to the party was bad, his actual arc at highland was very well done and great. But this just isn’t smurfing fair. Citan’s a smurfing boss.

Oh no.

He didn't.

I said this was going to happen back during my argument with Wolf a couple weeks ago, remember? :p

He's the one that had to go and bring up Breath of Fire 2 in that last discussion. Blame him for this.

Edit: Just a note, Jean is probably more comparable to Esmaralda as story wise they are both irrelevant, though Jean still wins that pair up. Why? At the very least his arc involves learning trout about the world, something Esmaralda is still unnecessary for. Plus we still get more time devouted to Jean then Esmarelda.

12 - Not played.

I actually own and have played some of one of the BoF series. I think it's number five? Either way, I don't know exactly why I never got that far into it, I can only imagine I was distracted by other games or just life in general. It seemed alright and I really would have liked to get a lot further than I did. Just too many games on the backburner, I think. :(

Breath of Fire 2 is a really good game, but I definitely preferred 3.

I will respond kindly to your assessment in due time but right now, school projects are kicking my ass so I'm going to be a bit busy for awhile, I just wanted to pop in to show you this news article I found the day you posted your BoFII post that mentions Breath of Fire II.

WARNING, this article contains some major spoilers for Xenoblade Chronicles as well so if anyone hasn't played the game yet but still intends to do so, you might want to give the article a pass.

Greg Perreault: Killing God in Video Games

Yeah, this ones going to get a lot of flak for being so high on the list. :p

Also, that article was fun.

11. Record of the Agarest War (PS3/360)
      First off, for those who saw the trailer, no, this game is not entirely focused on Fan Service. Now that I have gotten that out of the way, this game is solid, and very unique in it’s story. Not so much the overarching plot, but more the execution.

      This game spans five generations. Our hero makes a vow that will keep him alive to fulfill a promise, and as a result a burden is placed on him and future generations of his family. You play through five generations of the family, each one being a full story in it’s own right, all while building up to that fifth generations finale. And each generations story is great.

      The only real weak point for me is Generation fours hero is a smurfing tool. Though it is amusing that most of your party treats him like he’s useless half the time, so there is some compensation there. He’s not bad by the end of the generation, but he’s it doesn’t really make up for it. On the other side, we have Generation 3 with the greatest main character in the game, Thoma. He’s amazing as a character, and I was sadder at the end of that generation then any other point in the game.

      The character relationships and interactions in this game are handled amazingly well. It has a huge cast of characters, really only comparable with games like Suikoden in shear volume. It also does a comparable job at giving all of these characters personality and story, and in a lot of instances the shear length of the game allows it to do even better. I love the premise your relationship with your potential spouse is based on more then just your interactions towards them, but also general choices you make in how to proceed.

      Gameplay is great. I love teaming up multiple guys and ‬performing a huge variety of combination attacks. By end of third generation you have a pretty set way of handling fights though, but a continuation of characters getting added in there are still ways to keep changing up your strategy by small bits.

      And this game’s difficulty can get pretty damn brutal at times. Midas from Generation three is a damn beast of a man, but the final defeat of him was so wonderfully satisfying. After him the difficulty tones itself down a lot, but a great chunk of the game keeps the heat up. Of course difficulty comes in for more then just battles. The game keeps track of turns used, and if you take to long you can actually miss out on different aspects of the game.

      It also comes with a great sense of humor, and very great comedic timing. Never does the comedy disrupt the games serious moments, something that bothers the hell out of me is some games. Not a huge point, but something worth mentioning I think.

      Finally, I like the ‘morality system’ if you can call it that. Rather then a complete overhaul of character, it’s more a lean your character takes on how things should be handled. It’s well handled in that your choices matter, and your character still holds on to his strong and distinct personality. Amazing SRPG right here.

^I never got around to playing that one.

11 - Not played.

10. The Adventures of Hammy Hamster: Return to Bum Tickle Cove (PS3/360)

When we last saw Hammy Hamster and his furry friends, they had escaped the clutches of the evil Captain Irrelevant using a combination of sleep powder and marmite. Of course, they had come away empty handed. The fabled Saucepan of Destiny was still locked away in the hidden vault on the island. It is time now for the intrepid Hammy to gather his strength and return to claim what is rightfully no-ones.

I don't think that anyone can really argue with the fact that this game sneaked into the top ten ahead of more notable, real and clearly better games, but it is personal choice after all. The fluid combination of classic RPG, puzzle-solving, anal stimulation and action elements give this a completely unique feel.

10/10.



EDIT: Sorry, Mr Cracker, couldn't resist! Like BoB though, I haven't played (or heard of) half of these games! I clearly need to expand my gaming knowledge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bubba

EDIT: Sorry, Mr Cracker, couldn't resist! Like BoB though, I haven't played (or heard of) half of these games! I clearly need to expand my gaming knowledge.

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Alternatively, NeoCracker has made a list of games that leave out some absolute delights (I'm losing hope for the top ten having all ten games I think should be in it... :p) in favour of obscure games that are obscure for a reason. ;)

I am only offended by the lack of effort to properly emulate my posting style in your parody sir. :colbert:

And If by 'obscure for a reason' you mean 'obscure because you mongaloids lack any real culture or desire to leave your comfort zone'.

Go back to your cookie cutter, AAA titles that the magazines tell you to like! Imma talk about Devil Survivor instead.

10. Shin Megami Tensai: Devil Survivor 2 (DS)
      Once again I end up with a game here for simply doing everything better then it’s predecessor more so then adding something new and shiny. Like I said before, BoF 2 up through what will be my #4 are practically interchangeable, though from a purely objective standpoint, I don’t know if it can be argued that Agarest War is on equal terms with Devil Survivor 2, which ends up being the reason it was selected for the higher spot.

      It added so much strategy with the new abilities that were learn able, and wonderful set up to build your relationships with various characters. Also it’s one of the strongest casts Shin Megami has given us, a personal favorite being Joe. He’s one of the best examples I’ve scene of a character who is way smarter then they present themselves. And, without spoiling anything, I will say there is a party divide at one point, and of anyone he probably has one of the most irrefutable reasons to go the way he does, and is one of the games strongest show of character. If you have a DS and like the SRPG’s, get into this one.

      Though in the end I can’t say anything else I haven’t already said about the first DS, so instead I’ll give you one of the funniest bit’s I’ve ever scene in a game, ever really. When going off to see his hospitalized Girlfriend, Joe begin’s Singing Dick in a Box.

Sometimes AAA games are good. Shocking, I know!

But you don't even have Chuck Yeager Air Combat in this thing, so it's clearly ridiculous.

NeoCracker's Top 100 Games, aka Insert Anime Characters. ;)

EDIT: Tensei, I think, not Tensai? Going by my search results, anyway.

'Sometimes' being the key word here. :p

And I hate air combat games.


ANd besides, I have a couple more conventional titles in the top ten. :p

This is definitely the most hipster of top games lists.

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Originally Posted by Happy Noodle Boy

This is definitely the most hipster of top games lists.

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You know, this makes me smile a bit on the inside for some reason. :p

Edit: @BoB Spelling things correctly is for squares.

Devil Survivor 2 is an amazing game. Episode 1 of the anime just aired if you are interested.

9. Xenoblade Chronicles
      The only real problem that this game has is that it made no use of motion controls, and as a result would have handled better on any other console. This game was massive in scale and amazingly well written, and easily the best game on the Wii.

      The combat has a lot of variety based on how you decide to level your abilities throughout the game, and the skill load out you end up going with, in addition to the way you build your character trees themselves. An example being Dunban has a tree which gives him insane evasion for building yourself on a no-armor build.

      You even gain access to new abilities that other characters have by building up different character relationships, which brings up the next great thing about this game, building relationships and Heart to Hearts. The Heart to Heart moments do so much to build a feeling of comradely throughout the game, and add more to all the characters involved. I feel I know more about the individual characters of this game then just about any other game out there.

      And it may take a while, but it definitely feels like a story written by Monolith. Fei of Xenogears being the only real exception, they do have trouble making the main character that interesting as a character. Still though Shulk does the job well enough, and his actually story and history is engaging. That’s something that holds true for all characters though, the engaging parts anyway. Well, except one, but I’ll get to that.

      The questing in this game is also insane, mostly to the games benefit. They actually do the side quests very well, and they feel more like they add life and variety to the game and towns, and the places you start to gain a feel and personality. However, the questing gets a bit to meh at times. It can feel especially pointless as you can, at times, finish quests before even getting to the person who gives it to you. A fair amount of them start to feel silly and pointless, though in the end more good comes from it then anything. It wouldn’t take much refinement to work out the kinks.

      Ignoring the flat faces, which mind you are a bit bothersome, the world and people look amazing. Once again we see a game that shows how much more important art design is to graphics. The details and scale of the things you fight are marvelous.

      There is really only one big issue I have with this game, and dear god is it something that pisses me off to no end. However, I will spoil this, as even mentioning it will ruin something that happens a fair way into the game. I suggest if you are playing through now, or intend to soon, you don’t unspoiler this until you’ve reached a certain village floating in the water. :p

(SPOILER)smurf Fiora. Seriously, she is bar none the worse part of this game. She is boring, stereotypical, and once Lady Mayneth is no longer a part of her, her soul reason to stay around is she is Shulks Child hood friend, and therefore love interest. A trope I hate to no end. That’s the problem too, is that all she amounts to as a character is that.

This alone wouldn’t bother me were it not for this next part, the game basically straight out says that as a person Fiora is stronger then Melia. When the game tried to push this on me, I wanted to stab someone in the smurfing throat.

Melia effectively deals with more trout then any other character in the game. It’s as if the gods themselves go out of their way to trout all over her, yet still she is able to stay hold on, even managing to push her own feelings and desires aside in order to make things right. There is no one in this game stronger them Melia, especially not some dull and badly written Child Hood love interest.

      Rant out of the way, still an amazing title. From beginning to end, outside of a few bumps here and their due to some odd writing decisions, there really is no way to go wrong with this title.

Don't have a Wii so can't play this. But I really, really wish Xenogears was released for PAL regions. :( I always hear so much about it, and it's still NA/JP only.

In all seriousness now, I loved Xenoblade Chronicles. It is how I pictured the direction of Final Fantasy to go in the 3D era. SE could learn a lot from this absolute masterpiece.

Unfortunately I think Xenoblade Chronicles will be a gem I'll forever miss. As the Wii falls down into a price I'd be willing to buy it for a few games, XC is going to rise to a rare classics premium I'm not willing to pay. But Nintendo's been getting more on point with their online offerings lately, let's see if they make it happen.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Don't have a Wii so can't play this. But I really, really wish Xenogears was released for PAL regions. :( I always hear so much about it, and it's still NA/JP only.

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You might not think this way when you actually play it.

Xenoblade was pretty good. I didn't care for the battle system so much, but the world was amazing.

8. Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al-Revis (PS2)
      Until the coming of the Atelier Arland games on PS3, there wasn’t any game like Mana Khemia out there. Not so much in terms of combat, but more in terms of the kind of story it would tell. And, as you notice from the high placing, I don’t think any of those games can compare in shear terms of writing. Really most games I don’t think can.

      To talk about combat first, it is fluid and fun. Making use of six characters at a time, three active and three that can be switched in mid battle, it has an excellent set up to make use of so many people at once. You have, essentially, gauges to fill to switch people in or out, and you do so either as a follow up attack, or switch out to guard. Different characters even have different abilities and effects in regards to whether they are defending or attacking. Examples include Muppy taking all allies into his shell on a Support Defense, taking the hit of an group attack by himself, or one character doing a counter attack during a support defense.

      Though the most fun is had with the card counter, the system that shows you turn order. In addition to character cards, their are blanks. Basically when you go, your card is moved back in the line, and to goes to the next card, skipping over any blanks. Some attacks actually add a card to the field, and each time it’s that cards turn it goes off. The fun comes in with setting up your own abilities, and even abilities that manipulate the cards rather then the battlefield directly. It’s a weird system to try to explain, and something as simple as turn presentation doesn’t seem like much, but it adds a great level of strategy and depth.

      Also one of the better uses of the Alchemy of the series, I feel the only game to out-craft this one was Atelier Ayesha. That said, the alchemy is almost used in place of typical leveling. It was by discovering formula’s that you would gain your advancement, using experience points to unlock abilities your alchemy began revealing. Unlike other games of the Atelier series (Which, regardless of name, this is one no doubt),

      What really sells this game for me though is you don’t see this kind of story in RPG’s, or for that matter gaming as a whole. The closet you’ll come are games like Rune Factory, but even those don’t quite fit the bill. You aren’t saving the world, you aren’t stopping some government or school conspiracy, you are simply dealing with your own past and it’s relation with the effects it will inevitably have on your localized area. Yet while the problem is localized and small in scale, the superb writings still makes everything thing feel so important to you the player it’s easier to get invested in it then some of gamings most massive and world ending plots.

      I’ll leave a spoiler for the next part, because that is what I’ll need to do to truly allow you to understand my love of this game, but the non-spoiler version is this. The writers understood that to make something feel big, it has to both be something extreme in comparison to the world around you, yet not feel like it was done for the sake of being dark. Imagine if, for example, you are playing a normal Harvest Moon game, and close to the end the bubonic plaque hit’s killing 80% of the town. You’re going to call bulltrout on that.

      Also think of playing Gears of War, you’re not going to be shocked when various NPC’s start dying. You might be sad if the writings good, but it’s something you would expect to happen. Mana Khemia manages to find a perfect balance here, and deliver one of the more emotional end stretches I have ever scene in gaming. Next I shall spoil that for you.

(SPOILER)The whole game essentially builds up that there is something strange about the main character. His Mana can’t speak to anyone but him, his mana can’t phase away, strange events like reviving the tree happen, and finally reviving a dead party member. As it turns out, it’s not his cat that is the Mana, the cat is a normal every day cat. But our lead himself is the Mana, and the worlds only artificially made Mana at that.

He was created by the person he views as his father, though they never actually met, in an attempt to rectify his own mistakes due to his arrogance, and created a mana who was capable of granting wishes. It didn’t quite end the way he expected though. The Mana he created didn’t simply grant a wish, it looked deep into your heart to grant it’s deepest desires. In the case of his father, he wasn’t able to bear the trouble he caused a girl whose life his Alchemy had greatly shortened. As a result, the Mana had taken his life.

Upon learning what it is he had done, the power begins to stir to grant his own wish. His desire was conflicting. He wanted to disappear, yet also wanted to be with all those around him, spending the last few years making all of these friends, so he wished to disappear with everyone. The dialogue and build up is absolutely beautiful and heartbreaking.

      Finally, to end this bit, there is basically an ending for each character, whoever’s arc you end up finishing being the ending you get, and determining to prior scenes, one of which is just before the final boss. You even get an ending if you forsake building your friendships. Though given how awesomely written they are I have no clue as to why you would want to.

8 - Not played (or heard of).

7. Final Fantasy VI
      I’m going at this one a bit differently then the others. The big one is, who here hasn’t heard everything absolutely wonderful about this game? No, what I’m going to do is firstly say regardless of that, if I were to take off the Nostalgia and memories this game isn’t as high quality as some make it out to be. Don’t get me wrong, this is genuinely an amazing game. But what I am going to do is go into what doesn’t work with the game, and then say why it is I still rank it so high. (It would still probably be on the lower end of 20 regardless. :p)

      Most issues with this game come in after Kefka smurfs with the three statues. It’s around this point where character selection starts becoming useless. Abilities and inherent stats begin fading next to the superiority of magic and per-level esper bonus’s. While it takes a bit for it to happen, it is most certainly unfortunate it does.

      The other one is there isn’t as much a sense of unity amongst your group. When collecting people past Setzer, there really isn’t any dialogue between the recruited and recruiters, most of the time there isn’t even any. The stories can be good, but then they just kind of end and the come back to fight Kefka.

      There is a problem earlier in game as well, which is some odd balance issues. For the first couple hours having them, Sabin and Edward’s damage output is insane, and lacking in any way to limit that output. Gau, with the right couple rages, can either physically out damage anyone else, or Magically out damage anyone else.

      That pretty much ends the games main flaws, though even with those it’s still rightfully an amazing game. Though now I’ll get into just why this game is so amazing for me.

      You had Super Mario World, the game that introduced me to gaming. Then there was Final Fantasy IV, the game that introduced me to RPG’s in general. It wasn’t long after that I had picked up VI. This was the game that, in a sense, opened up my eyes. While I enjoyed games prior, this was the game that showed me just what a game was capable of.

      You could get a massive world to explore and detail in ways a movie never could. It lacks any kind of time constraint. At the same time, you can tell one epic story without having to worry about episodic breaks and arcs as one would have to do with a TV series. Best yet you could also get some great music and visuals that books could not offer.

      What else makes this so great us that this could all be done without having to sacrifice narrative quality. It was this game that allowed me to appreciate the gaming medium, and even games I’d played prior I was able to look at in an all new light. When I actually dived into FF VI, I ‘got it’ in a sense.

      So I feel I owe more to Final Fantasy VI then any other game out there, and I don’t think there is a way to deny this game had a massive role in shaping who I ended up becoming today. Whether or not that is a good thing, whose to say. ;P

It's your list, I suppose whether or not a game gave you an epiphany is a fair gauge any day. To me, it's more around the middle of the FF series, but I appreciate why those who grew up on the SNES rank it so highly. It still made my jaw drop when that knight opened his mouth and started singing, and we're talking years and generations after the game had come and gone.

While I love Xenoblade Chronicles, I still think it's a bit overrated sometimes. The world and gameplay is great and the writing is good, but I only really cared for like 3 out of the 7 characters in the game. The main character is very typical, plain and boring for example.
Another thing that's not a big issue - since it's mainly a post-game issue and I only care about it because I'm a post-game addict - is that gaining levels can be bad for stat-development. The SP and AP you gain from enemies depend on their level compared to your own. So beating enemies that are higher level than yourself is the best way to get SP/AP. This means that once you reach level 99, you gain basically no SP at all and only very little AP, except against the super bosses who you would want all of those abilities and such unlocked for anyway. What makes it worse is the fact that you level up so darn quickly during the post-game. It really takes no time at all to hit 99. The super bosses themselves were okay though.

The game is good, but it would probably only make it into top 30 on my list.





Mana Khemia is a great game and very underrated. The final boss battle is incredibly well done and one of my personal favourite final bosses. :greenie:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

8 - Not played (or heard of).

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FFVI is, for someone who played it only recently, a good game. For me, it is a victim of overhype. People built it up constantly for years, and when I finally actually finished the game... it just didn't seem "all that". The biggest letdown for me was the opera scene, which I found boring. I've seen that song peformed live and found it amazing, but the sound quality back then is so poor compared to what it was just shortly afterwards that I struggled to be captured by it. When playing FFVI on the bus, I would often fall asleep. Compare that to FFIX which I'm playing now and I'm actually really enjoying it now that I've gotten far enough into the game.

I still enjoyed FFVI, don't get me wrong, but everything that people built up as amazing parts of the game didn't meet the hype for me. Well, okay, Ultros did. ;) What I loved about FFVI: Ultros, Edgar, Sabin, Celes, Umaro throwing people around, General Leo, the amusing humour. Kefka was a good villain, too. I enjoyed the battle system for the most part.

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Sabin and Edward’s

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Sabin and Edward

As a fan of the Figaro Brothers I don't know what to say.:glare:


It's Sabin Rene Figaro and Edgar Roni Figaro. gOSh.

6. Chrono Trigger (SNES)
      What can I possibly say about this game at this point? The shear volume of love this game gets is immense, and it’s understandable why that is. Chrono Trigger pushes really close to being a flawless title, but there are things that keep it from being perfect, mostly small things and nit picks that are likely a product of tech limits and minor oversights, but nothing major.

      If I were to get one of those things out of the way, it’s the awkward acceptance of whats going on to some characters. Not so much Crono, Marle, Lucca, Magus, or Robo, but with Frog and Ayla. It’s as if the moment they realize there is time travel they simply shrug their shoulders and go ‘Makes sense to me’ and proceed un phased. That always bothered me a little.

      Still though, everything good about this game makes things like that almost UN-noticable. The characters are all absolutely wonderful. Even Lucca, my least favorite, is fun and has a genuinely sad ending after Lavos is defeated. Robo leaving back to a future he may not exist in was kind of heartbreaking in a way. I mean Cross said he did in fact live, though I think that may have been a mystery better left un answered, though I digress.

      Frog and Magus, in terms of story, are easily the best written in the game, and I’d argue best characters as well. There is so much history these to have not only together, but apart. And when all is said and done, I even like how Magus never really becomes a good guy, even when helping you out. This is also one of the only games besides Breath of Fire that really sells the silent protagonist with a good personality.

      And while by end game, as it usually does, Dual and Triple techs become a bit pointless when you have doom bringing spells like Luminaire, Flare, and Dark Matter at your disposal, for the majority of the game they add a lot of variety and wonderful visuals. Seeing Crono just shock the trout out of Ayla only for her to go to town and some poor Shmuck? Priceless.

      Hell, this was about the only RPG in it’s day that took into account enemy and ally positioning across the map, making various abilities more viable at different times. This is something difficult as all hell to do in a JRPG, and almost every time it happens it flops, such as Wild Arms 3. Again, late game abilities kind of nullify this, but at the very least it’s late game.

      It’s also an entirely different kind of villain you face compared to most other games, especially of it’s time. You aren’t fighting some malevolent force, or some misguided man trying to do good, or anything of the sort. You are fighting against a force of nature. A being who really is only following it’s own natural survival instincts, it just happens to be at the cost of every ones life. Now, it is more complex then that, with it gaining more intelligence and what not, but at it’s core this is what the fight is over.

      And the time travel was handled wonderfully. The explained just enough to rationalize it, but didn’t try to explain to much so you could start poking holes in it. The a time Travel Story should be. Mind you, I still liked Dark Cloud 2‘s method of not explaining trout and just running with it, but Trigger found a much more clever way to go about it.

      And did I mention how absolutely wonderful this game looks? It pretty much blows any other SNES game out of the water in terms of shear graphics as well as design. While I still think the BoF 2 in battle spites were superior in design, it hardly makes up for it when the entirety of Trigger is so wonderfully done.

      One last thing I like, that I don’t think it really get’s talked about much, if at all, is the leveling. It’s pretty standard, but what I love about it is you definitely have an advantage with characters you use more often, having acquired more AP, but the fact other members still gain experience allows you to not have to worry about grinding characters you normally don’t use as they will be leveled when forced to use them, all while keeping your more focused party the most viable.

In a couple days comes the final chunk of 'bad games'!

In my time as a player of RPGs and a reader of their discussions, the three super-hyped games I eventually got to playing were Final Fantasy VI, Xenogears, and Chrono Trigger. 2 out of 3 just did not live up to it, and probably looked even worse in my eyes because of the overhype. Chrono Trigger was the odd man out that really was just as good as everyone said it was. Not enough to break into my personal top 10, but very close to a flawless game.

One thing I can say for certain: it sure as hell didn't handle time travel as well as Final Fantasy VIII!!!! Has that been on this list yet? :razz:

Oh, I've played this one, too. I can't remember much about it, though. I mean, I can remember certain 'screenshots' in my head, but I can't remember the plot itself or anything. I suppose that's a good thing because it means I can enjoy the game to it's fullest if/when I play it again.

Can't remember if I finished or not, either. I remember at least four of the playable characters, a bunch of the environments, etc.

Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger are both great games. I never played Mana Khemia 1. I have the second game, but I was never able to get into it.

Bad Games, the Finally
4. ‬Tower of Druaga: Nightmare of Druaga (PS2)
      You know, I have nothing intelligible to say about this one. I made the worst games list off games that simply left an impact on me, and this one happened to. The only thing I can really say is it is outclassed by a flash based game on the web that came out years before this one, yet wasn’t even good enough for me to finish or remember the name of. smurf this game.

3. Final Fantasy VIII (PSX)
      Our main character runs out of the room screaming at the though that someone might think about him after he dies. And no one ever brings this moment up again. And the scene happens because they presume Seifer, who they clearly saw willing side with and go with the sorceress, is dead. Is there any need for me to say more about this game? Because the writing doesn’t get any better then that.

      I guess I could add in that it is just as bad, if not worse, then FF VII in terms of character differences in battle. There are two things that determine what you do in battle, limit breaks and what GF you have equipped. Let’s not even bring up blatant Limit Spamming tricks with Aura later in the game.

      While we are on GF’s, Junctioning is trout. Yes, the system makes sense from a purely mechanical standpoint and is pretty straight forward. No, it makes no smurfing sense from an in-world stand point, and the game does nothing to try to explain it. Worse yet, it starts rendering magic pointless. Yes, you can find a way to actually use magic easy enough while keeping it functioned to stats. Though why? You junction your strongest spells to attack because you want to bludgeon people to death. And doing so is just as, if not more so, effective then actually casting magic. In practice and flavor this is just a waste of a system.

      Last thing I’ll say, and believe me, most people here know I”m able to rant about way more in this game, Drawing is a smurfing terrible way to get magic. If you like the card game it’s fine, but I hate it. Drawing from nature points works, but is still slow and time consuming and nothing more then busy work. The only non-frustrating way to get magic is by breaking down items. Moving on.

2. Record of the Agarest War 2 (PS3/360)
      The only game that I’m sadder to put on this list is the one that is going to follow this, but this one really hit me hard. Not just because it failed not only as a game, and as a sequel to Agarest War, but you could tell these guys put in the effort. This was not a lazy attempt, but just an utterly failed one.

      Not only was it switched from an SRPG to a JRPG, but they trying to hold on to the focus of unite attacks. How this translated was, from the beginning, you will be doing the same trout the entire battle, which will be lengthy as smurf, until you no longer need to look at the screen to play through the fights.

      The Characters just fall flat compared to Agarest War as well, and once again fail to even be well made characters in their own write. I’m not sure if it was just due to poor translation or not, but the dialogue just feels so unnatural compared to the last game, and it’s hard to give a smurf about these people because of it.

      Worse yet, they take essentially the main antagonist for most of the last game, and he just get’s slapped down like a bitch in the smurfing tutorial fight. That was just insulting to me. And again, I see what they were doing, and I can see all the effort they put into making this. But dear god did it fail.

1. Mana Khemia 2 (PS2)
      I originally planned to do this prior to top 10 rather then top 5. Though when I started thinking about it, I realized this had to be done after Mana Khemia. It does, to an extent, apply to Agarest War 2 as well, but more so with this game you would need to understand exactly why it was I loved the first game so much to understand why I despise this game so. When I sat down to write this entry, I actually got so mad thinking about it I wasn’t even able to focus on the typing anymore.

      The more objective reason I hate this game amounts to the same reason I hated Dante’s Inferno, and that was how shamelessly lazy the game was. This games combat is nothing more then a carbon copy of Mana Khemia. What makes it worse though was in this case it wasn’t even ripping someone else off, it was just a recycling of the last game that had made. There was nothing added to combat in this game to distinguish it.

      Even worse, they took the great character writing of the first game and went, ‘let’s take a single aspect of each character from the last game, and make a character who only possess’s that aspect’. Not only did they get lazy with programming, but even the writing lacked any semblance of care. Designs and art direction were lifted entirely from the last game as well.

      Dante’s Inferno may have been a shameless rip off, but Mana Khemia 2 is more then that. This game was the creators of one of the most unique plots in the realm of video games just deciding they didn’t give a smurf. I know a lot of people think this is odd to feel about a video game, but this is what people mean by betrayal. It’s really strange considering there had only been Mana Khemia prior to this, but the speed at which they got this insanely lazy is pure bulltrout. There is not a single excuse for Mana Khemia 2. Even the likes of FF VIII and Agarest War 2 don’t compare to my disgust for this game and everything it represents to me.


Special note: Some of you may be saying ‘but don't you hate Dragon Quarter' to which I respond NO SUCH GAME EXISTED! :mad2:

You know, I keep thinking maybe I should play FFVIII one of these days to see if it's actually as bad as some people say it is, and then I remember the orphanage plot twist is a major part of the plot to that game and it pretty much kills my desire to play it.

Some good choices on this list. I'd probably have put FFVI and Chrono Trigger even higher but the odds are I probably haven't played most of the games you put above them. A lot of these are games I've never even heard of, which I guess goes to show you how interested I am in games compared to other people here.

Imagine the size of the list if I didn't condense some into single spots, and every game I forgot about had a spot. :p

I know I've missed Secret of Evermore and three Ace Atornney games.

And Prototype.

First Lord of the Realms game, a few old DOS based RPG's, Might and Magic Heroes III and V......

And yeah, the sad part is I don't think the Orphanage bit was the worst thing in that game by a fair bit. :p

To tell you the truth, I actually liked FF8. However, I will admit that most of the characters are horribly under developed. The plot is a convoluted mess, and battle mechanics are the most broken in the entire series. Still, I highly enjoyed the game. I loved the sci-fi world, and the card game a lot. I also really liked Squall to be honest. I thought he did the quiet brooding thing, better than Cloud at least.

VIII is never as bad as people claim it is, Manny. It's not the best by any means, but it's one of the most enjoyable gameplay experiences I've had. People like Neo might complain that you can rig the game so you're overpowered, but really you can do that in any FF game if you really want to.

I just draw here and there every now and then as I go along, just continuing with the story. I don't grind out the refinement abilities right away, I just play the game and the challenge stays pretty nice.

BoB said this about FFVII I believe, and I'll extend it to FFVIII: if we applied the same critical focus to all games as we do to FFVIII, we wouldn't be left with many good video games.

I think FFVII's story can get pretty asinine in parts too, to the point where it probably diminished my enjoyment of the game a lot (and I would probably rank it in my top three Final Fantasy games if it'd stuck with the themes of the Midgar sequence, which is one of the most perfectly executed sequences in the history of video games, rather than meandering off into a supernatural alien soap opera). And much as I love it, FFVI's story has some pretty dumb moments too ((SPOILER)really guys? You seriously trusted the Emperor?), but nothing that rivals the orphanage plot twist, which has to rank pretty high on the list of contrived coincidences I've encountered in fiction.

I guess there is something to be said for gameplay. Last time I went through FFV, which probably has the best gameplay of the main series entries, I overpowered all my characters into complete tanks so I guess you can break any of them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

VIII is never as bad as people claim it is, Manny. It's not the best by any means, but it's one of the most enjoyable gameplay experiences I've had. People like Neo might complain that you can rig the game so you're overpowered, but really you can do that in any FF game if you really want to.

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The complaint isn't that you can do that, the complaint is it's just how the game goes. You know how you become overpowered? Junctioning high level magic to stats. How does the game tell you the system works? By junctioning higher level magic to stats you are stronger.

You become overpowered by doing EXACTLY WHAT THE GAME TELLS YOU TO. there is an ever so subtle difference here. ;P

Also, my issue listed wasn't about being overpowered. It's that the set up of the Junction system itself makes the use of magic almost pointless outside of exploits like Aura.

And no, I don't believe that defense in the slightest for either VII or VIII.

1) Not all issues are of equal merit. Specifically the problems i have with FF VIII are things I have more issues with then other games.

2) Not all games have the same number of issues.

3) I give all games critical focus, and still I manage to enjoy a smurf ton of games, as you can notice from the massive size of this list, which isn't even a complete list of games I've played and enjoyed. ;P


Edit: I will say in regards to Man's FF VI comment, it was a bit stupid of them, but they didn't really trust the Emperor, hence them keeping an eye on the guy. It was more a coming together of what seemed to be, at the time, a mutual threat that required cooperation. A bit of a stretch, yes, but nothing I find breaks the suspension of Disbelief.

(SPOILER)You have a point, but even so, they didn't really prepare enough. When Kefka came and started killing Espers at Thamasa, there was nothing anyone could do because most of the people who might have been able to stop him were elsewhere. It doesn't really break suspension of disbelief, but it's still a clear case of characters holding the Idiot Ball and exhibiting Genre Blindness. Don't get me wrong, some classic stories have quite a lot of Genre Blindness (how much of Genesis of the Daleks could have been averted if people just stopped trusting Davros?) but regardless I still regard it as a flaw.