The greatest games - A Personal list of Neocracker~

[Mercen-X]

Well, there's no accounting for one man's opinion. This isn't a professional criticism, Neo's entitled to his say. Some people consider Psychonauts to be god's gift to gaming. While I like the game, I certainly wouldn't call it a godsend.

[Ultima Shadow]

Like the Tales franchise, it is the RPG equivalent of Junk Food compared to the more exquisite meals offered by Breath of Fire, Suikoden, and most of the numbered FF series.

Tales franchise

Junk Food

...how many of the Tales of games did you actually play? Tales of honestly has some of the better JRPG characters out there. While I could agree that the storyline itself can lack a little sometimes, the characters always stay true to their personalities while maintaining depth and a good balance between humor and seriousness. Jade from ToA = more awesome and interesting than every single FF character. Period.

Comparing Tales of with junk food is so incomprehensible that I will quote you one more time:

Like the Tales franchise, it is the RPG equivalent of Junk Food

[Wolf Kanno]

...how many of the Tales of games did you actually play? Tales of honestly has some of the better JRPG characters out there. While I could agree that the storyline itself can lack a little sometimes, the characters always stay true to their personalities while maintaining depth and a good balance between humor and seriousness. Jade from ToA = more awesome and interesting than every single FF character. Period.

I just don't see it, while the Tales of series certainly have some exceptions to the rule I feel overall the franchise is a mediocre series that dips all too often into both the Big Book or RPG cliches and Big Book of Anime cliches which largely leaves me feeling every game I've played as being a "been there, done that" kind of feel. While Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss are certainly high marks, its hard to say the same thing about the rest of the franchise who often gets more publicity when Namco-Bandai decided not to release the newest entry outside of Japan. Honestly, I just don't feel the franchise has what it takes to push the medium like FF, DQ, and other fan favorite JRPGs have.

Hell, the Tales franchise has not even had the real clout to seriously take over the JRPG market this generation after Square-Enix practically handed this generation over to them by releasing what many fans consider the weakest entries in some of their flagship franchises, having others end up as a no show, and even alienated others by jumping genre. Even with all the hate the recent FF titles get and the lavish praise thrown on the Tales games, FFXIII has out-sold every Tales of game this generation combined... Its a fun series which is why I called it junk food cause people love and often crave junk food, but in its current state I don't feel the Tales of franchise will ever reach the same clout as some series have.

As for you NeoCracker, prepare because I'm going to take you on your claim when I have time tomorrow.

[Bolivar]

"YO Neo, get ready, cause you're next..." Love it!

I also have to bookmark this page because Wolf just said DQ pushed the genre forward...

Also I don't think sales and market share is the barometer of success for a JRPG, and I wouldn't count FFXIII sales as a threshold on that scale. XIII sold more on PS3 alone than Mass Effect 2 did on all platforms combined, and that's one of the biggest games this generation.

[NeoCracker]

Speaking of DQ.....

39. Dragon Quest VIII (PS2)
      This is going to sound bizarre, but with the exception of the time I played DQ V about half way through using a fan translation, DQ VII was my first experience with Dragon Quest. And you know what? It was a good one. The game has a wonderful Charm to it other series just don't seem to have. It's art style, it's silly puns, and simplistic story telling all meld together so wonderfully well.

      I also enjoy the customization system, giving you different ways of using your characters dependent upon which weapons you invested your points into, though it was odd that each character's points were different, but hey, that's just nitpicking. Really it's a very classic JRPG that does what it does very well. If you like this kind of game, it's great, but if you were never very keen on DQ I don't see this one winning you over.

38. Wild Arms 5 (PS2)
      This is a hard game to talk about given how I've already spoken on WA 4. The reason being is that this game is good for all the same reasons, only it does it all better. It was pretty much the natural evolution of the direction WA 4 took the series. If there is anything specific to point to, however, it was the interchangeable party members where as 5 gave you options, and I've always been a fan of the interchangeable party. Even with the lack of team up techniques when compared to WA 4, it still manages to be the superior title.

I know both are a bit on the short side this time, but piss off, I"ve had to deal with trout this week.

[Wolf Kanno]

"YO Neo, get ready, cause you're next..." Love it!

I also have to bookmark this page because Wolf just said DQ pushed the genre forward...

Also I don't think sales and market share is the barometer of success for a JRPG, and I wouldn't count FFXIII sales as a threshold on that scale. XIII sold more on PS3 alone than Mass Effect 2 did on all platforms combined, and that's one of the biggest games this generation.

True, sales don't really mean much sometimes but to fair in my comparison, Mass Effect 2's combined numbers are not far off from XIII's sales as opposed to the Tales Of games who haven't seen a major financial success since Tales of Symphonia. From what I gather it was the last time the series had a title break a million. Course I could turn this around and probably discover my beloved MegaTen is also all hype with little financial merit to back it up, but my point is that even though Tales had a whole generation to really grab players by their "gaming stones" and lead the JRPG revolution this generation as the old guard meekly defends its waning title as king of the genre, it just didn't happen and games like From Software's Demon's Souls/Dark Souls, Monoloith Soft's Xenoblade Chronicles, Sega's Valkyria Chronicles, and Mistwalker's Lost Odyssey seem to be the titles that will be truly revered and telling of what fans expect from the JRPG genre. Tales fans talk about the Tales series, but I'm always surprised how often editorials, fan comments, and blogs will bring up these games when speaking about the genre and its future.

Its not to say I feel Tales is a bad series, and I do feel it has merits for the genre, but it just doesn't have the qualities to lead to the genre like FF and other series have.

As for DQ, it has its moments of leading the genre. While I feel DQIV failed as a story, its direction with the chapter setup was novel and interesting and has long been utilized (much better I might add) by other games like Wild ARMs. DQIII and DQV are certainly game changers that really inspired Squaresoft and Sega to really push the envelope to surpass them with Final Fantasy and Phantasy Star respectively. Even DQVIII has some worthy game design that I really feel RPG developers should take a second look at and learn from it.

I found an interesting article about FFVI, but the writer really placed a heavy emphasis on how DQV really effected Squaresoft and inspired them to change their usual style to create VI in order to answer Enix's DQV. While it's all baseless theory, I can't hep but say after playing both games that its likely true to some degree.

And face it, my criticisms of Xenogears are all entirely valid.

No

6. Xenogears
There was one accusation about me going in wanting to hate this game, but I actually am depressed I don't like this game. I will say, I can see a lot of good in this game. It has a couple of very well written characters with Fei and Citan, and a lot of great build up. However, there are three things that just kill this game for me.

Firstly, I believe it was Mirage who said this though I may be wrong, but this game takes way to much advantage of the players suspension of Disbelief. Vanderkaums arrogance was way beyond a guy stuck in his ways, that kid making it to the second round of a martial arts tournament, I could go on, but I think you get the point.

First off, Vanderkaum's arrogance is really truth being stranger than fiction because this happens more often in war than you think. The British Red Coats utilized a classic style of troop warfare that proved ineffective against some Colonial regiments who used guerrilla war tactics. The same thing happened in Vietnam where America used WWII tank/infantry tactics that proved time and again to be ineffective to an enemy that simply ran away into the jungle and sniped the advancing army. Hell, the Spanish Armada itself partly fell (besides the Act of God) because they tried to fight more advanced full sail ships which were more maneuverable, and carried better weapons. The Spanish also lost because they tried to fight the battle with outdated tactics that got them pounded in some of their encounters. So no, I don't feel Vanderkaum's stupidity is unrealistic, of anything he's probably more realistic than you would like to believe people are. I on the other hand, have largely given up on humanity. Attachment 41959

As for Dan, he does know martial arts, the Lahan section confirms Fei trained the children of the village, so its not like he's some farm boy with no skill. I'm mean damn, Citan and Fei are in the village training kids and they are both monsters so I feel its possible Dan could win a few fights, especially since being a child would give him a mental advantage. The scene itself is also important because Fei has finally gotten out of his "Woe is Me" mindest and finally focusing on looking at the bigger picture and using his strength to help a worthy cause. The battle with Dan is both a symbolic battle of Fei accepting his guilt and giving the player the chance to smack around the annoying little twerp, I mean they did it again in Xenosaga Episode 3 to give the players catharsis.

Secondly is the dungeon and monster design. Dear god, these are the worst dungeons I have ever seen an any RPG. Especially the ones where everything looks the same, and there is no map to refer to. It gets dull and boring. And the monster design isn't so much bad, as they re-use a the same desing a lot. This is some of the least variety I have ever seen in a game.

Worst of all, none of the games build up pays off. I'm sure no one will deny how sucky it was Rico's entire story got axed from the game, but this is a problem you see throughout the entire game. So much trout got cut, and this game suffers for it.

Really? The worst dungeons design ever? Even FFII with its multi-floor one color Gauntlet-style designs with rooms that teleport you into the middle of it and have increased encounter rates is more fun and creative than Xenogears?

FFXIII's corridor where all you do is walk forward auto-jump at pre-destined places and maybe try to outmaneuver large Behemoths on tight corridors even though you know damn well their is no room to actually maneuver?

I mean smurf, the first two Xenosaga games feature several dungeons with the same wall structure layout, and Episode II had you go through the same dungeon twice, in a row, and all they changed was that it was snowing instead of spring.

Somehow, Xenogears is just worst?

Listen, I'll gleefully meet you halfway and say that Xenogears had bad dungeons, while I feel the introduction of platforming made for some interesting design choices, I also agree it was not implemented well but I can also say I was never bored in all of the dungeons. Frustrated beyond reason in the Babel Tower, sure, but never bored. I certainly forgive the game more than I probably should in this regard but then again I use to play platformers hot and heavy in the old days and that included the bad Mario knock-offs with sputtering controls, so maybe I just have a higher threshold for that kind of bulltrout, who knows, but I disagree its the worst.

Enemy types is a fair critique, I can't really justify that, though I often spent more time learning to do deathblows and playing with Gear accessories but I would be the first to admit Xenogears battle system is more style over substance. A bad trait it carries from what was trending at the time.

Esmeralda was introduced and ignored until one optional dungeon end game, which barely added anything at all.

Maria's entire arc started and ended when you first meat her to her first Gear fight.

We will not get into Pupu.

Billy's Arc was good, but was also short lived and not really expanded up at all after the initial arc finishes.

Dood, most RPGs tend to only give side characters one moment in the spotlight, like most of the supporting cast from BoF2. There just isn't enough time to expand a huge cast especially one as expansive as Xenogears. The thing here is that I honestly felt the character development most of the cast did get was really good, and another thing to point out is that Gears largely stuck to expanding characters whose stories coincided with Feis and the ancient conspiracy of Solaris. This is why I felt Rico got the shaft because its the only country not connected to Solaris in some way. Whereas Bart had Shahkan and Gebler, Billy had the Ethos Organization, Esmerelda was the actual tool needed to complete Krelian and the Gazel Ministry's plan, and Maria further explained Solaris experiments using Wells and Gears. The important thing here and you even admit this yourself is that the characters stories are pretty much self contained barring Rico, the rest of the cast are introduced and by the end of their arc they have resolved most of their issues. I mean what else was Maria and Billy really going to add to the story after their segments. They still have their moments like Billy using his gun expertise to help destroy the Solaris Gate, or Maria being responsible for getting the party into Solaris.

Esmerelda's importance as a character is to tell Kim and the Zeboim Era's story. She is the child Kim and Elly could not have and she symbolically represents just how smurfed up that era was which is the origin of the Gears and why Krelian and the others need Nanotechnology to fulfill their plan since humanity screwed themselves up so bad their own DNA was starting to fail them. Beyond that, she is more important as a plot device since her existence allows the bad guys to fulfill their plan and I kind of like the cosmic coincidence of Fei's former incarnation accidentally helping the bad guys, not that Kim is the last incanration to screw Fei over.

The thing here is that Xenogears is not an ensemble cast, its more like FFIV, VII, and VIII featuring a main character whose story is the driving element of the plot. Elly, Citan and Bart are central in getting Fei to move forward on his journey so obviously they get the most screentime. Hell even the amount of deathblows the characters have can pretty much tell you how important they are in the story.

And I have a bias against any Romance whose entire basis is "We were destined to be together because destiny!". It cheapens the entire thing for me.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I like those types of story because at least they can create more interesting conflict than "will they or won't they" instead I felt Xenogears did a great job of actually building a real relationship between the two with thei first encounter in the woods, to their battle before Fei's major ambush, to the really wonderful soul searching you get when they are shipwrecked. To be honest, I would argue Fei and Elly have one of the better developed relationships and this is all before you realize its all destiny, even without it, you can see them growing slowly closer as the story progresses which is much better than stuff from the FF series where after one cutscene they already know they want to bump uglies. The destiny aspect itself is also played very well since we get to see that even though they were meant to be together, fate always deals Elly a bad hand and their love is always screwed over time and time again so their story is less about "will they tell each other how they feel?" and more of a "will they both actually survive this and finally get the happy ending they deserve?" and Xenogears deliveres it. Besides, not many games pull the "destiny" card so I find it rather refreshing than the overused "childhood friend" or "boy meets girl" that plaugues the genre like a bad infection.

Anyway, before I beat this dead horse more....

Too late...

[NeoCracker]

You know, the moment I actually get to BoF2 on this list, I will explain to you why it did the better job with the different character stories, but I don't want to pre-emptively go on about a game that I haven't gotten to on my list yet.

I will still counter both Maria and Esmeralda because their stories are pretty much finished the moment they are introduced into the party. Esmaralda didn't even need to join the party for her story to be fulfilled. Fei's recalling memories happens in the game without her, so she's not even necessary for the flashback scene to the other time period.

And I'll just give you FF 2, because I'll be honest I can't remember trout about it's dungeon design. And Xenosaga can have some pretty bad design choices, but never in that game did a dungeon frustrate me, and I never really felt like I was just re-treading the same ground for the entire stretch of the dungeon.

And let's not bring Xeno 2 into this, I already admit to forgiving that entire game way more then I probably should.

Oddly though, I don't really have an issue with the Xeno battle system other then the fact when you have Citan in your group there is no reason to try anymore, and after a certain point the battles just become rinse and repeat the remainder of the game. (I've forgiven plenty of other games for that though. )

Most of my distaste for this game is the lack of any real pay off to what was otherwise some really well done build up.

ANd yes, there is some pretty nutty cases in real life of generals and what not making some really smurfing stupid tactical choices. However, your examples still aren't as stupid as Vanderkaum, and here is why.

1) Any reference to tactics is nonsense, because the army is trained and equipped to handle situations Vanderkaum was in. It's not like they were dealing with some new breed of enemy that required tactics they'd never used before, this was trout they've dealt with in the past.

2) The Redcoats had the misfortune of not being trained to handle that kind of fighting. They were also at the disadvantage of not being willing to just level everything because it was still considered British property, and to do so would destroy it's own infrastructure. These are two things that in no way, shape, or form factor into Vanderkaum's arrogance and failure.

3) Solaris's, on a whole, is smart. They have been doing their thing for generations, run and operated by people who have been able to adapt with the generations of different kinds of opposition. Yet somehow on this run they see it as a good Idea to trust a guy who they have seen already is a raging imbecile?

4) Even if I drop point three, there is one more thing wrong with that scene. When a guy is an idiot, but has way more power and resources then you, you win the fight by outsmarting him. Fei's plan? Charge in guns blazing and just trust the idiocy of a man you have never met, and have only heard a small bit about, is so great he shall forgoe using the entire armada of anti-gear weaponry at his disposal in favor of the least efficient weapon in his arsenal for handling the situation. I mean yes, it did work, but it doesn't change the fact the plan was smurfing stupid.

5) I'll even drop point four for this, grant you Vanderkaum is believable, and grant you that Fei's plan wasn't smurfing stupid (Even though it was), and ask you this. Just because something is believable, does it make for a good story? What kind of threat is an enemy so stupid that with the vastly superior resources at Vanderkaum's disposal, he can go down to such an minimalistic plan? It was like at the end of Burst Angel when the Brain in a Jar was raving about how he could not be defeated, and it was to late to stop him, and the main character just shoots him through his non-bullet proof glass and the show ends.


Edit: Also, I think I'm done talking on Xenogears. I've bitched enough of the topic.

[Ultima Shadow]

I just don't see it, while the Tales of series certainly have some exceptions to the rule I feel overall the franchise is a mediocre series that dips all too often into both the Big Book or RPG cliches and Big Book of Anime cliches which largely leaves me feeling every game I've played as being a "been there, done that" kind of feel.

I can agree with cliches being used often. However... they almost always have an unusual take on these cliches one way or another, or they are simply better done than cliches of the same categories in other games. The characters in the Tales of games usually have very well-defined personalities that separate them from the more flat and overly generic counterparts you see in a whole lot of actually mediocre RPGs out there.

Asbel from Graces, for example, fits into just as many typical "hero cliches" as... say, Edge from SO4. Yet at the same time, he is quite possibly the only main character of his kind that I actually like a lot. The game doesn't try to blow his goodie two-shoes ways out of propotions, and the other characters can see his ideals as a burden at times, rather than blindly clinging to him like he's some kind of messiah. There are even parts that makes fun of him for being a hero cliche. Yet he has more depth and better reason for ideals than pretty much all other MC's of his kind.

He uses a sword, fights for justice and stuff, wants to protect everyone and all that crap... all those things you've seen before in every RPG ever, yet he still manages to stay different from those typical RPG heroes. And perhaps even more importantly, he's set on his naive ideals to the point where he can actually come to a mutual conclusion with the villain(s) rather than "destroying the source of evil" - which is something fresh that you really don't see much in other RPGs.

And when it comes to main villains, the FF series uses far more cliches. The Tales of series uses many cliches, but they use them well.

...so I absolutely disagree with the "been there done that" feel. Especially when compared to so many half-decent RPGs.

While Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss are certainly high marks, its hard to say the same thing about the rest of the franchise who often gets more publicity when Namco-Bandai decided not to release the newest entry outside of Japan. Honestly, I just don't feel the franchise has what it takes to push the medium like FF, DQ, and other fan favorite JRPGs have. Hell, the Tales franchise has not even had the real clout to seriously take over the JRPG market this generation after Square-Enix practically handed this generation over to them by releasing what many fans consider the weakest entries in some of their flagship franchises, having others end up as a no show, and even alienated others by jumping genre. Even with all the hate the recent FF titles get and the lavish praise thrown on the Tales games, FFXIII has out-sold every Tales of game this generation combined...

Tales of Vesperia and Tales of Graces, while not quite as great as Symphonia and Abyss, are still really good games too. And sales are totally irrelevant to the subject. Sales does not equal quality.

...and after reading your second post with the clarification: "taking the throne" and "leading the genre to a new future" are not really relevant to the quality of the series either. A game doesn't have to be revolutionary to be great.

Its a fun series which is why I called it junk food cause people love and often crave junk food, but in its current state I don't feel the Tales of franchise will ever reach the same clout as some series have.

So tell me, what exactly separates a fun junkfood game from a fun non-junkfood game to you?


Comparing Tales of to FF, I gotta say that on a whole:

Tales of has better character design.

Tales of has far superior gameplay.

FF has better music.

FF has better storylines.

...and to me, the first two both outweight the later two.

Also, not trying to trout-talk FF. I love the FF games. But if you ask me, the Tales of main series still has better titles than the FF main series.

[Bolivar]

Unless we're all done here, this is encroaching on "new thread" territory, although we've kinda already done the whole Xenogears thing a few months ago.

Moving forward, I am now shifting from bitching about the last 80 games being ahead of Final Fantasy VII to how the next 38 games are ahead of Dragon Quest VIII.

[NeoCracker]

Because there exists a better Dragon Quest game.

?37. Final Fantasy IV (SNES)
      This game, much like Super Mario World in a way, is very important to me for a reason more so then just the quality of the game itself. This was my first foray into the world of RPG's, and when I played it I could not think of any games I enjoyed more then it. That did start to change as time went on, mind you. Yet even if I look past the Nostalgia, this game has a lot of Merits in it's own right, and I can comfortably say the Nostalgia has little effect on this games placement.

      While lacking the interchangeable party I enjoy in RPG's, FF IV makes up for this with having a great line up of PC's that come in and out of the party depending upon where you are in the story, and very few of them I didn't really like. Hell, I can't even think of a character I hate, and that's astonishing for me. There are some who I think aren't all that good, such as the twins and Rosa, but this is pretty miniscule.

      And it also ends up being one of the more challenging FF's, especially the DS version. I will say that, on a whole, the DS is my favorite version for the increased difficulty, improved script, and great Augment System (Even if the method for getting some of them was ridiculous). While not my favorite FF, I can easily see why people might regard it as such.

      Since it's not appearing on the list as I forgot to include it, I will mention The After Years here as well. The After years was great. A lot of new and fun characters, and a fun use of a Dual tech System. It managed to feel like a game linked with FF IV while adding a new spin to the game play. And Edward was a smurfing boss in this. That is all.


?36. Final Fantasy Tactics (PSX)
      Tactis was a big game changer for FF I think. Not only did it make the move to the SRPG set up found in the original Tactics Ogre Titles, but in terms of story this was something that wasn't seen in just about any RPG or console game. It was a story focusing a lot more on a political plot. It still holds much of FF's magical flair however, and the game does a wonderful job and utilizing both aspects. Also it gets points for being so much more then a simple ploy between good and evil, and deals with a lot of grey area.

      As with most FF's, the game does a great job at creating it's world and characters,
and backing it all up with a wonderful score. I am bothered by when you start getting named PC's with unique classes, since I'd already put all this time into no name classes, but that is a bit of a nit pick.


      The combat is solid, giving you a lot of classes and options. While there are too
many abilities that just end up being worthless, and a couple really silly systems like Brave, Faith, and your Zodiac Sign (MInd you, they all had potential, but were just badly utalized I feel), it makes up for it with all of it's other strengths.

      And I'm not sure if it's still a bit controversial to say this, but War of the Lions is the best version of this game. Even with the graphical slow down at times, the absolutely wonderful Dialogue of the re-translation makes up for it. It has a lot more character and does a far better job then the original at conveying the mood and atmosphere of the game. Though i was sad at the loss of the line 'Rebels Plotting Rebellion.'

      I will say, I have yet to play, though will as soon as I can, Tactics Ogre: Let us
Cling together.

[maybee]

I'm sad that Final Fantasy IV is only 37th spot. What a crime.

[ throws copy of FF IV at you ]

Bow down at his majesty and apologize !

[Loony BoB]

I've played FFIV some distance in but I can't remember much of it at all, it was when I was about 17 or so. I recently bought both of these games for the PSP, though, so fingers crossed it isn't another dozen years before I get around to finishing them.

[NeoCracker]

And now for a couple of games that are completely different!

35. Septerra Core: Legacy of the Creator (PC)
      This is probably the most seriously under rated game I have ever played, and it's a shame the game didn't get more attention. It came out really buggy, but even though the company went under, still the developers put the time in to patch and fix the game even though there was no semblance of business incentive to do so. It was plagued with some pretty bad bugs do to it being rushed, a couple of which could make it unplayable prior to the patches. But smurf it, they fixed it.


      The setting of Septerra core is one of the most unique I have seen in a game, taking place in a world where the continents exists as a series of land masses connected in layers, each 'shell' as they are called basically acting as it's own city state of sorts. The plot focus on The Chosen, those who live on the upper most Shell, trying to force ably fulfill the Prophecy of Marduk and open on the core, leading the Chosen to the Kingdom of Heavan. Maya and the party she picks up along the way are fighting against them and all the damage their plans are causing to the people of the world.


      The characters and story are all wonderful, and it features one of RPG's only female protagonists. And she is awesome. This girl is like, a feminists wet dream with how well written she is, and lacking the typical female stereotypes. The cast is varies, and you are left with no party member feeling useless. Even unique dialogue and options depending on who you have, some characters even allowing access to certain things you otherwise couldn't have if they weren't with your party.


      The magic system was fun, allowing you to combine 2-3 spells at a time to get a variety of effects, taking multiple characters turns to pull it off. The battle system is very well thought out, and allows for a lot of strategies to be employed, though as well made as it is it ends up being the games biggest weakness. The combat of this game can go very slow, even by RPG standards. You see, each character has a time meter, and three sections. Basically, you gain access to a different set of abilities for each rank you are at, so you can end up waiting with nothing happening on screen for noticeable stretches of time. If slow battle systems bug you, this would definitely get irritable, and is what keeps me from ranking this game higher. Yes, it really can be that slow.


      If you can look past a the speed, however, give this game a shot. It's on over at GOG games, though I warn you the method to get it running on Vista or higher with windows isn't guaranteed to work. (Nothing illegal or system damaging mind you. ). I admit this is a huge downside, but I find myself able to forgive it because of how great the game was put together.

?34. Heavy Rain (PS3)
      Wow this game is intense. It has some of gaming's most uncomfortable scenes, and I mean that in the best way possible. This is another one though that's really hard to write about, because the entire motivating factor to play is the story and characters. The game play is... differnt. I'm sure a lot of you probably know about it, but it's mostly quick time events mixed in with some point and click style adventure. The only real comparisons you can even make game-play wise is to that of a Visual Novel with QT events and some point and click adventure.

      If that concept isn't to alienating for you, the game has a lot of absolutely stunning visuals, and a rather dark and
twisted story. Learning about all the characters and events involved in this game are fantastic, and there is a variety of different endings, some of which you'll get if you fail and get killed in some of the characters stories, as it follows around four different character plots to reach the end.

      This game is from a studio who really do make a kind of game you don't find any one else doing, and they do a good job at it. Here's hoping Beyond: Two Souls turns out just as good!

[Bolivar]

Surprised to see Heavy Rain, not that it doesn't deserve it. Maybe the most intense game I've ever played? A lot of the scenes are just surreal as you're playing them.

[Wolf Kanno]

You know, the moment I actually get to BoF2 on this list, I will explain to you why it did the better job with the different character stories, but I don't want to pre-emptively go on about a game that I haven't gotten to on my list yet.

I look forward to explaining why you are wrong.

I will still counter both Maria and Esmeralda because their stories are pretty much finished the moment they are introduced into the party. Esmaralda didn't even need to join the party for her story to be fulfilled. Fei's recalling memories happens in the game without her, so she's not even necessary for the flashback scene to the other time period.

For one thing, Maria's Arc is pretty long and encompasses the introduction to Shevat, you talk like it ended 10 minutes after her introduction when it was just as long as Rico's intro and Billy's Arc. Esmerelda's story is Kim's story which is why she has to be there, not only is she an important plot element for the bad guys, but her existence really tells the story of Zeboim Era. Esmerelda's Story is the story of the Zeboim Era and it wouldn't have worked out with just Fei's flashbacks. Esmerelda's story is split into three sections. Her intro where the party races against Bishop Stone to retrieve her which is a really touching scene if you brought Elly along, her actual intro to the party after her boss fight where we get the second major hint about Fei's reincarnation past. Finally we get her third section where we finally fill in the blanks to one of Fei's past incarnations, but also Fei finally get's to see his life's work as Kim come to fruition as Esmerelda becomes complete. It was a touching bookend to both her and Kim.

And I'll just give you FF 2, because I'll be honest I can't remember trout about it's dungeon design. And Xenosaga can have some pretty bad design choices, but never in that game did a dungeon frustrate me, and I never really felt like I was just re-treading the same ground for the entire stretch of the dungeon.

FFII's dungeons are atrocious and this is coming from someone who actually likes FFII.

And let's not bring Xeno 2 into this, I already admit to forgiving that entire game way more then I probably should.

It is as much as your sin as my enjoyment of FFII is mine.

Oddly though, I don't really have an issue with the Xeno battle system other then the fact when you have Citan in your group there is no reason to try anymore, and after a certain point the battles just become rinse and repeat the remainder of the game. (I've forgiven plenty of other games for that though. )

Citan is a monster and it isn't helped that the game really loves to keep him in your party. I was honestly waiting for Bolivar to jump in on that one.

Most of my distaste for this game is the lack of any real pay off to what was otherwise some really well done build up.

I'll have to agree to disagree because I felt Xenogears paid off the important parts of the story. Rico and Kaiser's story, the "missing night in Shevat", and the missing Omnigears are the only major story points that bothered me. I'll agree the rushed nature of the rest of the plot is a valid criticism but I honestly felt the developers handled it well considering they were on deadline and had the budget slashed in mid-development.

ANd yes, there is some pretty nutty cases in real life of generals and what not making some really smurfing stupid tactical choices. However, your examples still aren't as stupid as Vanderkaum, and here is why.

1) Any reference to tactics is nonsense, because the army is trained and equipped to handle situations Vanderkaum was in. It's not like they were dealing with some new breed of enemy that required tactics they'd never used before, this was trout they've dealt with in the past.

Partially untrue, the opening of the game pretty much tells you that Gear combat is relatively new to the current countries of the Ignas continent, largely thanks to Solaris hiding and controlling history. Hell, if you think about it, even though Solaris uses Gears in their military, they haven't fought a real war in 500 years, so its not like their army has real longterm battle experience against other gears.

2) The Redcoats had the misfortune of not being trained to handle that kind of fighting. They were also at the disadvantage of not being willing to just level everything because it was still considered British property, and to do so would destroy it's own infrastructure. These are two things that in no way, shape, or form factor into Vanderkaum's arrogance and failure.

Not true, the Redcoats would be well aware of the fighting tactics since the Colonist and British forces faced it in the French and Indian War a decade earlier. Several of the Redcoat forces were already stationed in the New World and would know the guerrilla tactics used by the Native American confederacy's. Hell when the British retreated from Boston after Bunker Hill, they regrouped in Canada and turned it into their staging ground. The notion of the Redcoats not being aware of guerrilla tactics is often an over-exaggeration helped to simplify understanding the war. Of anything the British often made the same mistake as Vanderkaum did in the early stages of the war which was try lure the Continental Army into a more conventional warfare they were strongest at, which often failed in the early stages of the War. The southern defense was often the Colonial army starting a conventional fight against the redcoats and then breaking formation and retreating to the wood where the Redcoats would follow and be picked off by ambushes. Granted the Colonials usually lost a any encounter that was a conventional fight or suffered heavy casualties.

3) Solaris's, on a whole, is smart. They have been doing their thing for generations, run and operated by people who have been able to adapt with the generations of different kinds of opposition. Yet somehow on this run they see it as a good Idea to trust a guy who they have seen already is a raging imbecile?

Not true as well, the whole reason Ramsus and his Gebler forces are in Aveh is because Vanderkaum is a screw up and needs to be replaced. Ramsus even foreshadows that its Vanderkaum's arrogance and use of dated military weapons and tactics is why he's a failure. If memory serves me correct, I think Ramsus even mentions he sent Vanderkaum to the front lines in the hope he would get killed. Its because of Ramsus harsh treatment and the fact Vanderkaum is going to be punished when he returns to Solaris that also lends support to why Vanderkaum made such stupid bullheaded moves because he was trying to prove his way of thinking was relevant. The game does a pretty good job of creating a human element to Vanderkaum in this regard. He's isn't just being stupid, he's also being desperate because he wants to prove the superiors they were wrong. Basically Vanderkaum is a fine example when keeping it real goes horribly wrong.

4) Even if I drop point three, there is one more thing wrong with that scene. When a guy is an idiot, but has way more power and resources then you, you win the fight by outsmarting him. Fei's plan? Charge in guns blazing and just trust the idiocy of a man you have never met, and have only heard a small bit about, is so great he shall forgoe using the entire armada of anti-gear weaponry at his disposal in favor of the least efficient weapon in his arsenal for handling the situation. I mean yes, it did work, but it doesn't change the fact the plan was smurfing stupid.

Fei is actually told ahead of time what kind of person Vanderkaum is when Sigurd and Citan brief him about the plan, so its not like Fei went in blind. Fei's goal was only to harrass the forces and make them call for backup by making it look like a Kislev attack, he was never meant to win. Even Fei's allies remark that Fei's actions were reckless (course they are used to it thanks to Bart) and the whole team themselves are dumbfounded when they actually crush Vanderkaum's forces.

The other thing to point out is that Fei is not just "Average Joe" and Weltall is an exceptional Gear so Fei's forces did have some advantages that Vanderkaum's forces were not prepared for.

5) I'll even drop point four for this, grant you Vanderkaum is believable, and grant you that Fei's plan wasn't smurfing stupid (Even though it was), and ask you this. Just because something is believable, does it make for a good story? What kind of threat is an enemy so stupid that with the vastly superior resources at Vanderkaum's disposal, he can go down to such an minimalistic plan? It was like at the end of Burst Angel when the Brain in a Jar was raving about how he could not be defeated, and it was to late to stop him, and the main character just shoots him through his non-bullet proof glass and the show ends.

I felt it was good story telling because we watch Fei finally grow into more of a hero than his mopey ass self from the previous 15 hours of the game, we get to watch the arrogance and desperation of a man end both his career and his life. To me the Vanderkaum sequence is an interesting tale that watches someone who is really shooting himself in the foot come to the sad revelation that he was wrong and then making a deal with the devil to try and gain redemption. Vanderkaum's story is written so you feel pitty for the man, not surprised by what happens and certainly you will yell at him as he keeps tying the noose around his neck but I find it engaging because its a lesson in hubris and human folly. I like it, I felt it was well written because the drama is about the fall of a stupid old soldier who is too stubborn to diverge from his old ways. You don't really get that kind of writing in video games, or at least ones that give the character a more human element.

Edit: Also, I think I'm done talking on Xenogears. I've bitched enough of the topic.

We'll see about that.

I can agree with cliches being used often. However... they almost always have an unusual take on these cliches one way or another, or they are simply better done than cliches of the same categories in other games. The characters in the Tales of games usually have very well-defined personalities that separate them from the more flat and overly generic counterparts you see in a whole lot of actually mediocre RPGs out there.

Asbel from Graces, for example, fits into just as many typical "hero cliches" as... say, Edge from SO4. Yet at the same time, he is quite possibly the only main character of his kind that I actually like a lot. The game doesn't try to blow his goodie two-shoes ways out of propotions, and the other characters can see his ideals as a burden at times, rather than blindly clinging to him like he's some kind of messiah. There are even parts that makes fun of him for being a hero cliche. Yet he has more depth and better reason for ideals than pretty much all other MC's of his kind.

He uses a sword, fights for justice and stuff, wants to protect everyone and all that crap... all those things you've seen before in every RPG ever, yet he still manages to stay different from those typical RPG heroes. And perhaps even more importantly, he's set on his naive ideals to the point where he can actually come to a mutual conclusion with the villain(s) rather than "destroying the source of evil" - which is something fresh that you really don't see much in other RPGs.

And when it comes to main villains, the FF series uses far more cliches. The Tales of series uses many cliches, but they use them well.

...so I absolutely disagree with the "been there done that" feel. Especially when compared to so many half-decent RPGs.

I would need to know what these "half decent RPGs" were because once you drop FF and other fan favorites like BoF, Suikoden, MegaTen, and Persona, it seems to me all that is left is Tales and a few dungeon cralwers like Etrian Odyssey.

My issue is that I don't find the characters too engaging, they may use a new spin on old cliches but by this point in time after playing the genre for well over ten years, I'm just sick of the cliches themselves.

Tales of Vesperia and Tales of Graces, while not quite as great as Symphonia and Abyss, are still really good games too. And sales are totally irrelevant to the subject. Sales does not equal quality.

...and after reading your second post with the clarification: "taking the throne" and "leading the genre to a new future" are not really relevant to the quality of the series either. A game doesn't have to be revolutionary to be great.

It doesn't but it has to bring something that really sets it apart and while the Tales games have a battle system, I prefer a complete package, especially if I'm going to elevate something to 'great" status and I just feel the Tales series doesn't have that. Beyond their combat system, I don't feel their is anything that makes them truly stand out.


[/QUOTE]So tell me, what exactly separates a fun junkfood game from a fun non-junkfood game to you? [/quote]

Something that actually changes how I think both in terms of game design and in dealing with characters and stroies. A game that alters how I feel falls into the "non-junk food" a game should have a lasting impact even after you shut it off and for me, Tales doesn't really have it.

Comparing Tales of to FF, I gotta say that on a whole:

Tales of has better character design.

I disagree, while Tales of certainly has nice desings, the anime designs don't lend itself well especially in a market that is increasingly using the style. FF may have some ugly desing choices but it at least stands out. Then again, I tenbd to favor stylized designs like Amano and Tatsuya Yoshikawa

Tales of has far superior gameplay.

Depends on your poison, while I like Tales of gameplay, I'm not a fan of Action RPGs so I would favor FF in most cases on this point.

FF has better music.

Well the series does have a monopoly on that element, its hard to find composers on par with Nobuo Uematsu.

FF has better storylines.

Compared to Tales of, yes I would agree.

...and to me, the first two both outweight the later two.

While I can agree that fun gameplay is important, story tends to be my other factor over character design, I usually don't give a damn about graphics and could care less if the characters look cool or sexy. As long as I like the characters personality I can overlook sub-par design. Tales of is hindered to me by their stories and characters who can never hold my attention for long. To me apathy is the clearest sign of dislike for something. Hating a character is fine, at least the writer was able to write someone who could illicit a response from the consumer even if its not what they intented, but not giving a damn about them in the first place is a sign of failure and this is why I don't care for Tales of because they can't illicit anything from me, this is why I don't like FFVII, X, and XIII because I am largely apathetic to them and it hinders my ability to enjoy the games.

Also, not trying to trout-talk FF. I love the FF games. But if you ask me, the Tales of main series still has better titles than the FF main series.

I can't agree about Tales of, but I also feel their are better games than some of the FFs so its not like I'm the raging "FFis teh BAEST!!!" but I can't deny the impact the series has on both the industry and on the people who love it.