is Sephiroth the best bad guy in the series?

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11-25-2006, 03:52 AM
Goldenboko

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

And it will be fixed. Wikipedia has a very good moderating team, although not everyone knows that.

I didn't know that. Interesting...

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And don't try and compare Seph's feats to Kefka's they don't compare because Sephiroth wanted to absorb the lifestream, didn't happen did it? Kefka wanted to destroy the world, and that did happen. The World of Ruin was basically a destroyed planet, life was fading rapidly.

Sephiroth wanted to controll the Lifestream. In FFVII he thought that the best way to do it, was absorbing it, but he failed. BUT in AC he thought that the best way to do it, was corrupting it, and he succeeded.
If we are only talking about the original games, i agree wit you. But if we are talking about the entire story of the two universes, than Sephiroth succeeded.

But in the end both of them losed.
Kefka didn't succeeded, the only successfull villain in FF history, is Delita.

Prepare for a couple seconds of off-topicness.

Isn't a bit clear that Kefka should've won though? He didn't spot them coming for him? He could oblitorate towns but can crush a few mortals? It makes no sense.

Kefka's original plan was to become a god, and have a reign of fear. He got that. When he decided to exteriminate all life he was stopped.
11-25-2006, 04:23 AM
Forsaken Lover

For all his powers, Sephiroth was horribly weak. For "accomplishing" becoming a god, Kefka and Kuja would destroy him.
11-25-2006, 06:22 AM
Firo Volondé

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

For all his powers, Sephiroth was horribly weak. For "accomplishing" becoming a god, Kefka and Kuja would destroy him.

Sephiroth could summon Meteor, though, which kind of evens things out.
11-25-2006, 06:27 AM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by blitz_king10

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

For all his powers, Sephiroth was horribly weak. For "accomplishing" becoming a god, Kefka and Kuja would destroy him.

Sephiroth could summon Meteor, though, which kind of evens things out.

And Kuja could Zot it out of the sky, greatly imbalancing things in Kuja's favor again.
11-25-2006, 04:03 PM
The Crystal

Kuja's powers are because of the souls of the Invincible. Sephiroth can corrupt these souls and kill Kuja.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

For all his powers, Sephiroth was horribly weak.

Considering the fact that we didn't see what is the true power of AC Sephiroth, and that he was destroying the entire world with his tainted Lifestream(the dark clouds) in the end of the movie, how you can say that he was weak? Sorry dude, but Kefka and Kuja aren't anymore the only two in FF series that can destroy a world. Sephiroth can too.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Isn't a bit clear that Kefka should've won though? He didn't spot them coming for him? He could oblitorate towns but can crush a few mortals? It makes no sense.

They deffeated him, in the same way that Zidane and his friends could deffeat a planet buster, or Bartz and his friends could deffeat the Void. They have powerfull attacks, and the super powerfull gods have a limited number of HP. In story-wise this don't make sense, but this is the way that things work in RPGs.
11-26-2006, 01:07 AM
Dragon Mage

You guys, corrupting the Lifestream wasn't his idea. It was Jenovas idea, and like a proper momma's boy, he did exactly as his 'mother' did before him. Sheesh. The idiot can't even come up with something original. And when he does, it doesn't even work. Wow. Now isn't that something to be proud of!

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I stopped reading once I read the thing that almost 99% of people know, and apparently you didn't.

A shame since you obviously don't know what the hell your blathering on about at all. In the frappin' game Cloud said "Protect the Promised Land?! No way!! I know him. That's not what he's like." Or something to that affect, I pretty sure I messed up on the last 2 lines. So just what the hell are you saying, 'He wanted to protect the PL'. Bullcrap. Go get your facts straight, then get into an argument. Until then don't waste my time.

To sum it all up Sephiroth is not the best villian in the series. Admittadly, I could take him more seriously than I could a giant, flying, telekinetic whale.
11-26-2006, 02:59 AM
Avarice-ness

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

You guys, corrupting the Lifestream wasn't his idea. It was Jenovas idea, and like a proper momma's boy, he did exactly as his 'mother' did before him. Sheesh. The idiot can't even come up with something original. And when he does, it doesn't even work. Wow. Now isn't that something to be proud of!

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I stopped reading once I read the thing that almost 99% of people know, and apparently you didn't.

A shame since you obviously don't know what the hell your blathering on about at all. In the frappin' game Cloud said "Protect the Promised Land?! No way!! I know him. That's not what he's like." Or something to that affect, I pretty sure I messed up on the last 2 lines. So just what the hell are you saying, 'He wanted to protect the PL'. Bullcrap. Go get your facts straight, then get into an argument. Until then don't waste my time.

To sum it all up Sephiroth is not the best villian in the series. Admittadly, I could take him more seriously than I could a giant, flying, telekinetic whale.

The comment you quoted was about you saying Sephiroth was half-alien, not anything to do with the promised land argument, Hence I said I was going to stop reading.

Plus I'm having a wonderful time watching you people bicker, because even the ones that 'know' so much end up arguing with the other ones who 'know' so much. *eats popcorn* :D
11-26-2006, 03:04 AM
Tg.cid

Sephiroth is an okay villan

Sephiroth is an okay villan but not the best he is a F*** mama's boy.

gohttp://www.battleon.com/Images/banners/Ad-120x600-Galanoth-v2.gifod
www.battleon.com
:tonberry: :beer: :trout:
11-26-2006, 04:06 AM
Forsaken Lover

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Kuja's powers are because of the souls of the Invincible. Sephiroth can corrupt these souls and kill Kuja.

Not even remotely true. Not by a long shot. The Lifestream is a collection of Spirit Energy. Which is different from souls because every “soul” joins it. That is what Sephiroth can control. Individual souls in other people he showed absolutely no power over.

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Considering the fact that we didn't see what is the true power of AC Sephiroth, and that he was destroying the entire world with his tainted Lifestream(the dark clouds) in the end of the movie, how you can say that he was weak? Sorry dude, but Kefka and Kuja aren't anymore the only two in FF series that can destroy a world. Sephiroth can too.

Oh no! DARK CLOUDS!! Are the clouds spitting lightning that destroys cities? No? Well, are they causing torrential raint hat will drown everything in existence? No? Well....they look good. Which is what Sephiroth is all about; looks.

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They deffeated him, in the same way that Zidane and his friends could deffeat a planet buster, or Bartz and his friends could deffeat the Void. They have powerfull attacks, and the super powerfull gods have a limited number of HP. In story-wise this don't make sense, but this is the way that things work in RPGs.
Last edited by The Crystal : 11-25-2006 at 11:15 AM.

Definitely right here. RPGS heroes are constantly overcoming beings they should have no chance of beating. It’s what makes an RPG, an RPG. ::)
11-26-2006, 10:04 AM
chrisfffan

top 3!

This thread has been going for some time now and I think the top 3 not in any order are Sephiroth, Kefka and Kuja nobody’s going to argue about that are they???
11-26-2006, 10:21 AM
YTDN

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Originally Posted by chrisfffan

This thread has been going for some time now and I think the top 3 not in any order are Sephiroth, Kefka and Kuja nobody’s going to argue about that are they???

The point is, though, we're all gonna keep arguing about which of the three are THE BEST. That's what we're like.
11-26-2006, 10:45 AM
Crop

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Originally Posted by chrisfffan

This thread has been going for some time now and I think the top 3 not in any order are Sephiroth, Kefka and Kuja nobody’s going to argue about that are they???

I am. Im a Rufus man "fo lyf!"
11-26-2006, 02:45 PM
chrisfffan

Rufus was a side villain he wasn’t the main bad guy so I don’t think he can be compared to the others
11-26-2006, 03:10 PM
The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Not even remotely true. Not by a long shot. The Lifestream is a collection of Spirit Energy. Which is different from souls because every “soul” joins it. That is what Sephiroth can control. Individual souls in other people he showed absolutely no power over.

What i understanded, was that people were infected by Jenova, and then the body tryed to destroy it, creating Geostigma in the process. The soul was corrupted by Jenova and than the person die. When the soul return to the Lifestream, the soul is already corrupted. Than another corrupted soul join in, and another, and another, etc. In the end(after two years) this many corrupted souls formed the corrupted Lifestream.
Sephiroth needed two years to do it, because he could only corrupt each soul one by one. But in the end of the movie he don't have this limitation anymore(but he can corrupt just one soul if he want).

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Oh no! DARK CLOUDS!! Are the clouds spitting lightning that destroys cities? No? Well, are they causing torrential raint hat will drown everything in existence? No? Well....they look good. Which is what Sephiroth is all about; looks.

This is a joke right? You understanded that they really aren't dark clouds right? They are corrupted Lifestream. The same corrupted Lifestream that Sephiroth would use to destroy all life in the world, and transform the planet in a "space ship" to travel the universe.
In the begin of the fight, you can see the "clouds" descending(like "tentacles"). What do you think that it would do? Destroy the planet, of course!
11-26-2006, 04:08 PM
Avarice-ness

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Originally Posted by chrisfffan

This thread has been going for some time now and I think the top 3 not in any order are Sephiroth, Kefka and Kuja nobody’s going to argue about that are they???

It'll just keep going like that. For Every valid reason someone has for Kefka or Kuja being the best bad guy in the VIDEO GAME, someone will prolly -always- have a reason why Sephiroth could kill them, be it in the video game or not.
11-26-2006, 04:11 PM
Crop

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Originally Posted by chrisfffan

Rufus was a side villain he wasn’t the main bad guy so I don’t think he can be compared to the others

Yes he can. Rufus Pwns all.
11-26-2006, 04:40 PM
Forsaken Lover

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What i understanded, was that people were infected by Jenova, and then the body tryed to destroy it, creating Geostigma in the process. The soul was corrupted by Jenova and than the person die. When the soul return to the Lifestream, the soul is already corrupted. Than another corrupted soul join in, and another, and another, etc. In the end(after two years) this many corrupted souls formed the corrupted Lifestream.
Sephiroth needed two years to do it, because he could only corrupt each soul one by one. But in the end of the movie he don't have this limitation anymore(but he can corrupt just one soul if he want).

But that’s different. Jenova cells infect the Lifestream that is in our body. Every person in the FFVII world has some tiny bit of the Lifestream in their body and they get Geostigma when that Lifestream in their body tries to fight off the foreign Jenova cells. So, Jenova cells do not directly infect a person’s soul because the soul of a person in the FFVII world is not like a soul of a person in another game or universe.

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This is a joke right? You understanded that they really aren't dark clouds right? They are corrupted Lifestream. The same corrupted Lifestream that Sephiroth would use to destroy all life in the world, and transform the planet in a "space ship" to travel the universe.

Okay? So it’s corrupted Lifestream. What does it do? Absolutely nothing. What it COULD do is somewhat impressive but as it did nothing, it is nothing but a backdrop in the fight.

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n the begin of the fight, you can see the "clouds" descending(like "tentacles"). What do you think that it would do? Destroy the planet, of course!

Would’ve, should’ve, could’ve. Didn’t. Villains boast. For all we know his plans would have fallen apart miserably and everything would die pointlessly. What actual evidence is there to support what he said was true?

Honestly. He had goals...didn’t come close to achieving them or doing half of what Kuja and Kefka did. For being a “god” in AC, he did nothing and yes, he may have been holding back but he still was defeated. So was Kefka and Kuja but they needed the entire party to defeat them and Kuja actually “killed” the party before losing. It took Cloud and his flashy swords to beat “god” Sephiroth.
11-26-2006, 08:02 PM
The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Okay? So it’s corrupted Lifestream. What does it do? Absolutely nothing. What it COULD do is somewhat impressive but as it did nothing, it is nothing but a backdrop in the fight.
Would’ve, should’ve, could’ve. Didn’t. Villains boast. For all we know his plans would have fallen apart miserably and everything would die pointlessly. What actual evidence is there to support what he said was true?

To understand Sephiroth's true power in AC, you have to understand what is the Lifestream. It is the source of all magic and life in the FFVII universe. Sephiroth could corrupt AND controll it. If he isn't a god, i don't know what he is.
And the Lifestream have a great power of destruction(like was showed to us, in "On a Way to a Smile"). The corrupted Lifestream is more powerfull than the pure one, meaning that he(Sephiroth) can use it to destroy an entire planet if he want.

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Honestly. He had goals...didn’t come close to achieving them or doing half of what Kuja and Kefka did. For being a “god” in AC, he did nothing and yes, he may have been holding back but he still was defeated. So was Kefka and Kuja but they needed the entire party to defeat them and Kuja actually “killed” the party before losing. It took Cloud and his flashy swords to beat “god” Sephiroth.

Remove the "" of the word "god". He was litterally a god in AC, there is no discussion about it. The Reunion Files say that he is the most powerfull being in the FFVII universe(including beings like Omega Weapon).
He was only deffeated because he decided to play with Cloud. For example, let's say that in the final battle of FFVI, Kefka decided to have a physical fight(without using any magic) against one of the heros, and in this fight he was deffeated. That means that he isn't a god? Of course not! That only means that he didn't use all his powers, and losed because of this. This is exactly what happened with Sephiroth in AC.
11-26-2006, 09:27 PM
YTDN

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

He was only deffeated because he decided to play with Cloud. For example, let's say that in the final battle of FFVI, Kefka decided to have a physical fight(without using any magic) against one of the heros, and in this fight he was deffeated. That means that he isn't a god? Of course not! That only means that he didn't use all his powers, and losed because of this. This is exactly what happened with Sephiroth in AC.

Well that means he's just stupid. What kind of villain decides to play with the main hero, and then floats in the air looking shocked while the hero slices him up with some new super move?
11-26-2006, 09:35 PM
Goldenboko

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in the begin of the fight, you can see the "clouds" descending(like "tentacles"). What do you think that it would do? Destroy the planet, of course!

I always assumed they added in the Clouds for looks :p. None of this stuff is mentioned in the movie, therefore in my opinion it takes away from the credit, its just stuff added in after to try and make things sound cool.
11-26-2006, 09:37 PM
The Crystal

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Originally Posted by YTDN

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

He was only deffeated because he decided to play with Cloud. For example, let's say that in the final battle of FFVI, Kefka decided to have a physical fight(without using any magic) against one of the heros, and in this fight he was deffeated. That means that he isn't a god? Of course not! That only means that he didn't use all his powers, and losed because of this. This is exactly what happened with Sephiroth in AC.

Well that means he's just stupid. What kind of villain decides to play with the main hero, and then floats in the air looking shocked while the hero slices him up with some new super move?

I agree. In AC his arrogance is so great, that he become stupid. But we have to remember that he is not really stupid, he is only that way with Cloud. Sephiroth hate Cloud so much, that instead of just killing him(like he do with any other person), he prefer to try to humiliate Cloud, and because of this, end giving an opening to Cloud attack and kill him.
Sephiroth's hate for Cloud, blind him.

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Originally Posted by Goldenboco

I always assumed they added in the Clouds for looks . None of this stuff is mentioned in the movie, therefore in my opinion it takes away from the credit, its just stuff added in after to try and make things sound cool.

MANY things aren't mentioned in the movie, this is why SE created the Reunion Files.
11-27-2006, 12:25 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

I always assumed they added in the Clouds for looks . None of this stuff is mentioned in the movie, therefore in my opinion it takes away from the credit, its just stuff added in after to try and make things sound cool.

MANY things aren't mentioned in the movie, this is why SE created the Reunion Files.[/QUOTE]

And this is why there will be MANY more FFVII related things, SE makes money, You people get more out of game reasons to like the game. I say, until they remake FFVII and add every bit they added after the game was made, every fact should be from gameplay, not what SE keeps adding for flash and to make some people "ohh" and "Ahh"
11-27-2006, 12:52 AM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

I always assumed they added in the Clouds for looks . None of this stuff is mentioned in the movie, therefore in my opinion it takes away from the credit, its just stuff added in after to try and make things sound cool.

MANY things aren't mentioned in the movie, this is why SE created the Reunion Files.

And this is why there will be MANY more FFVII related things, SE makes money, You people get more out of game reasons to like the game. I say, until they remake FFVII and add every bit they added after the game was made, every fact should be from gameplay, not what SE keeps adding for flash and to make some people "ohh" and "Ahh"

My, isn't that an arbitrary standard. In that case, I say we should only count what I saw when I played on a Tuesday to be fact.

SE made it, gave it their stamp of approval and shipped it out. That makes it official, and if it has the FF7 stamp, it's FF7 legal, unless stated otherwise or retconned.
11-27-2006, 04:05 AM
Forsaken Lover

Well, Kuja once going into Trance was a demi-god and he'd destroy AC Sephiroth. As would the following:

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Albedo
3. Any of the Testaments
4. KOS-MOS
5. Id
6. Kain (LoK)
7. Raziel (LoK)
8. Lavos
9. Ness
10. Emperor Palpatine of the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

And the list goes on and on.....he's really weak all in all for becoming a god.
11-27-2006, 04:29 AM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well, Kuja once going into Trance was a demi-god and he'd destroy AC Sephiroth. As would the following:

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Albedo
3. Any of the Testaments
4. KOS-MOS
5. Id
6. Kain (LoK)
7. Raziel (LoK)
8. Lavos
9. Ness
10. Emperor Palpatine of the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

And the list goes on and on.....he's really weak all in all for becoming a god.

I'm following you on all of that except for Ness.
And to be frank, your average Jedi in the EU (depending on the wank level of the particular story) could kill Sephiroth. Actually, your Average Jedi could do it anyways. Lightsabers and precognition, not to mention the force tend to give one an edge.

And Trance Kuja was a god in his own right. What's this Demi nonsense?
11-27-2006, 04:51 AM
Forsaken Lover

Ness is from EarthBound. He's this kid who basically can beat the crap out of one of the most powerful RPG villains of all time who is nothing more than an incorporeal mass of energy with a plain old baseball bat. His psychic powers are also quite immense and Seph has no defense against that.

And you are quite right on the EU Jedi. As for demi-god, it's how I calll him. He may very well have been a god but I've simply gotten into the habit of calling him a demigod. Not many ultra-powerful beings are known as gods, actually from what I've seen. If a villain has tremendous power, people refer to them as demi-gods.
11-27-2006, 03:28 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

he's really weak all in all for becoming a god.

Sephiroth is not so weak. He can controll all magic in FFVII world, and can at least, destroy the surface of a planet.
11-27-2006, 04:00 PM
feioncastor

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

he's really weak all in all for becoming a god.

Sephiroth is not so weak. He can controll all magic in FFVII world, and can at least, destroy the surface of a planet.

It's funny because Kefka is not only able to do that stuff, he actually does it.

Sephiroth isn't really evil. Jenova isn't really evil. Listen to the stuff he says when he kills someone. He talks about them joining the lifestream and all this beautiful afterlife stuff, as if he was trying to better a situation and killed when he cause demanded it.

Look at Kefka. He has no real reason to kill. He has no greater cause. He kills because he likes to watch things die. He just likes to hear the sound of people in agony. He wants to bring despair and completely kill off the idea of hope. When Kefka kills someone, he doesn't get all philosophical "lifestream" or anything. He laughs. And if the game were made with better graphics, you'd probably see him urinating on the person he just killed.
11-27-2006, 04:01 PM
YTDN

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

he's really weak all in all for becoming a god.

Sephiroth is not so weak. He can controll all magic in FFVII world, and can at least, destroy the surface of a planet.

So? Kuja could destroy the entire planet. Kefka controls all the magic in the FFVI world. Ultimecia can control time. Sin can vapourise whole armies. Compared to other FF villains, Sephiroth isn't actually that awesome.
11-27-2006, 04:10 PM
Forsaken Lover

Oh come on, man! Can't you see the awesomeness and power of Sephiroth? Well, maybe if you put him next to Shuyin, Heidegger and Queen Brahne...THEN you can see the total immensity of his evil and power. Especially Shuyin. Next to Shuyin, Sephiroth is Satan.

But, then you put him alongside to Kefka and he's more along the lines of a tiny yelping poodle next to a full-grown and ravenous boxer. One won't shut up and probably could nip your ankle. The other won't shut up and will rip your throat out.
11-27-2006, 04:22 PM
feioncastor

And Sephiroth's ever famous "Supernova" (which takes way too long to happen) can't actually kill anyone, unlike Kefka's Goner or Zeromus's Big Bang.

Especially Big Bang. That killed me many times.
SPOILERS AHEAD
Sephiroth isn't that powerful. For one thing, the real Sephiroth is a human like Cloud. I'm pretty sure that Bizarro Sephiroth is actually Jenova. I'm pretty sure that every Sephiroth you see in the game, except in flashbacks, is actually Jenova because I think Cloud threw Sephiroth into a Mako Reactor before the game chronologically begins.

And the Sephiroth you actually see isn't really that great either. When you fight him at the end, he's sort of tough, but he isn't that strong in comparison to other FF final bosses (*cough* Zeromus *cough*).

And apart from the actual fight itself, Sephiroth's power isn't that great. He can try to summon a meteor to hit the planet, but Kefka would use his flame of Judgement to toast Sephiroth, where ever he was at on the planet, and then he'd just let the meteor hit the planet since he likes stuff dying anyway.
11-27-2006, 04:36 PM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Oh come on, man! Can't you see the awesomeness and power of Sephiroth? Well, maybe if you put him next to Shuyin, Heidegger and Queen Brahne...THEN you can see the total immensity of his evil and power. Especially Shuyin. Next to Shuyin, Sephiroth is Satan.

But, then you put him alongside to Kefka and he's more along the lines of a tiny yelping poodle next to a full-grown and ravenous boxer. One won't shut up and probably could nip your ankle. The other won't shut up and will rip your throat out.

Oh -that- was awesome. I have this undying need to draw Sephy Poodle and Kefka Boxer. You my friend have made my day. :)
11-27-2006, 04:47 PM
feioncastor

I just realized something.

Okay, you know how Supernova can't kill you?

Well, here's what I was thinking. What if Sephy went up against Chupon/Typoon? First, Sephiroth would use Supernova, weakening the heck of Chupon, but definitely not killing him.

And then..... Chupon would Sneeze Sephiroth out of the battle, which technically counts as a loss because if that happens in the Colleseum, you lose your bid.

Even so, being the "best" villian doesn't mean being the most powerful. Look at Ultros. Is he the most powerful? No. But is the best? Possibly.

Sephiroth's problem isn't his lack of power, because relative to the others living in his world (which doesn't include Kefka), Sephiroth was powerful. It's not his power that I question. It's his motive. He's not killing for the sake of evil and villainy. He's doing it because he thinks it's the right thing do. He's doing what he feels is best. That's not a villain. That's a stupid/crazy person.
11-27-2006, 06:09 PM
Diango12

Its common everyone knows Sephiroth is the ultimate BA. There are alot of types of villians theres the insane, the misguided, the manipulative and insedious, and theres Sephiroth the Badass

Sephiroth lost his mind, declared himself a member of the Cetra and decendent of an ancient race that were, in his mind, betrayed by humans, and then flew off half-cocked and razed Nibelheim. He couldn't mentally handle the truth of his origins and instead settled for a distorted version of the truth in which he was meant to become the next "Jenova" and become one with the planet.

He was never the "chosen one" by any means. He was the result of genetic experimentation performed by his psychotic father... artificially endowed with the power of the greatest enemy the Cetra had ever faced.
11-27-2006, 07:04 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

So? Kuja could destroy the entire planet. Kefka controls all the magic in the FFVI world. Ultimecia can control time. Sin can vapourise whole armies. Compared to other FF villains, Sephiroth isn't actually that awesome.

And compared to other villains, Sephiroth is not that weak(like some people are saying). Having controll over magic(Lifestream) in the world, and being capable of destroying the surface of a planet, put him in the same level of Kefka.
And we don't know if Kuja can destroy a planet or only the surface of it.
11-27-2006, 07:42 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

So? Kuja could destroy the entire planet. Kefka controls all the magic in the FFVI world. Ultimecia can control time. Sin can vapourise whole armies. Compared to other FF villains, Sephiroth isn't actually that awesome.

And compared to other villains, Sephiroth is not that weak(like some people are saying). Having controll over magic(Lifestream) in the world, and being capable of destroying the surface of a planet, put him in the same level of Kefka.
And we don't know if Kuja can destroy a planet or only the surface of it.

Even if it's the lower figure, planet glassing is hardly something to scoff at, and something neither Kefka or Sephiroth actually completed. Kefka threw the balance largely out of whack in his initial act of shoving the statues about, and given that he didn't totally eradicate planetary life suggests that he was unable to do so for one reason or another (I mean, do you really think Kefka would STOP pointing the Uberlaser at people if he could run it nonstop?). In any case, Kefka managed the destruction in a matter of minutes/hours. Kefka hadn't succeeded after a whole year. Speaks to a major difference in their power outputs.
11-27-2006, 07:47 PM
Avarice-ness

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

So? Kuja could destroy the entire planet. Kefka controls all the magic in the FFVI world. Ultimecia can control time. Sin can vapourise whole armies. Compared to other FF villains, Sephiroth isn't actually that awesome.

And compared to other villains, Sephiroth is not that weak(like some people are saying). Having controll over magic(Lifestream) in the world, and being capable of destroying the surface of a planet, put him in the same level of Kefka.
And we don't know if Kuja can destroy a planet or only the surface of it.

Even if it's the lower figure, planet glassing is hardly something to scoff at, and something neither Kefka or Sephiroth actually completed. Kefka threw the balance largely out of whack in his initial act of shoving the statues about, and given that he didn't totally eradicate planetary life suggests that he was unable to do so for one reason or another (I mean, do you really think Kefka would STOP pointing the Uberlaser at people if he could run it nonstop?). In any case, Kefka managed the destruction in a matter of minutes/hours. Kefka hadn't succeeded after a whole year. Speaks to a major difference in their power outputs.

Ooh, We were just talking about that in the Kefka thread. Actually Kefka only shoots his light of Judgement at towns that don't really see eye to eye with him. If he wanted everyone dead he could have, but he has control issues. No one ever said Kefka wanted to just kill everything, he just wanted to watch things suffer. You can't watch Dead things suffer. :(
11-27-2006, 07:59 PM
feioncastor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Ooh, We were just talking about that in the Kefka thread.

That is because all things are about Kefka.
11-27-2006, 08:06 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Ooh, We were just talking about that in the Kefka thread. Actually Kefka only shoots his light of Judgement at towns that don't really see eye to eye with him. If he wanted everyone dead he could have, but he has control issues. No one ever said Kefka wanted to just kill everything, he just wanted to watch things suffer. You can't watch Dead things suffer. :(

I agree. And what is funny, is that we can use the same argument with Sephiroth. Sephiroth begun the process of destroying the planet in the end of AC, but he would never destroy the planet before making Cloud suffer. Because he cannot watch Cloud's dead body suffer.

In my opinion, both Kefka and Sephiroth(in their most powerfull forms) can destroy the surface of a planet.
11-27-2006, 08:11 PM
MurderfaceX3

Yes....end of conversation!
11-27-2006, 08:31 PM
chrisfffan

great villain

I don’t know about Kefka but with Kuja I never really hated him or the bad guy in X or 8 but with 7 I really wanted to kill Sephiroth more then completing the game, that’s what made him a great villain for me.
11-27-2006, 09:01 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Ooh, We were just talking about that in the Kefka thread. Actually Kefka only shoots his light of Judgement at towns that don't really see eye to eye with him. If he wanted everyone dead he could have, but he has control issues. No one ever said Kefka wanted to just kill everything, he just wanted to watch things suffer. You can't watch Dead things suffer. :(

I agree. And what is funny, is that we can use the same argument with Sephiroth. Sephiroth begun the process of destroying the planet in the end of AC, but he would never destroy the planet before making Cloud suffer. Because he cannot watch Cloud's dead body suffer.

In my opinion, both Kefka and Sephiroth(in their most powerfull forms) can destroy the surface of a planet.

Forgive the bluntness, but smeg your opinion. Evidence is what matters. So, thus, to your statement of surface destroying, I ask A: Over how long a time, and B: To what level destruction, and C: Where's your proof?
11-27-2006, 09:09 PM
feioncastor

Well, you'd have to define "destroying the surface of the Earth". Kefka turned two or three continents into about 20. The water isn't blue anymore. The ground is all dirt and dead plants, and you don't see grass growing anywhere.

However, it really doesn't matter which is more powerful because power doesn't make you evil. By the end of FF6, I can tell you that my team was powerful enough to go around the world and kill every human on the planet. But we're not villains, so we don't do that.

Look at President Shinra. He's rather villainous, but he certainly isn't that powerful.

So instead of comparing who would win in a fight, you should be comparing which of the two is a better villain.
11-27-2006, 09:33 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Forgive the bluntness, but smeg your opinion. Evidence is what matters. So, thus, to your statement of surface destroying, I ask A: Over how long a time, and B: To what level destruction, and C: Where's your proof?

A) We don't know, because Cloud deffeated him, and Aerith destroyed his will(with her holly rain) before he could end the process.

B) He would at least kill all life in the planet, and transform the planet in a "space ship" to travell the cosmos. This is what he said.

C) "On a Way to a Smile" show to us that the pure Lifestream have a great power of destruction(hell, just look at what the Junon Mako(pure Lifestream) Cannon can do in the game). And remember that all magic power of destruction(Materias) is pure Lifestream condensed.
The corrupted Lifestream was more powerfull than the pure one.

The Lifestream is like the Statues of FFVI. All magic and life exist because of it. Who have controll over it, is a god. Sephiroth has controll over it in AC, so, he is a god. Is very simple.
11-27-2006, 09:40 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Forgive the bluntness, but smeg your opinion. Evidence is what matters. So, thus, to your statement of surface destroying, I ask A: Over how long a time, and B: To what level destruction, and C: Where's your proof?

A) We don't know, because Cloud deffeated him, and Aerith destroyed his will(with her holly rain) before he could end the process.

B) He would at least kill all life in the planet, and transform the planet in a "space ship" to travell the cosmos.

C) "On a Way to a Smile" show to us that the pure Lifestream have a great power of destruction(hell, just look at what the Junon Mako(pure Lifestream) Cannon can do in the game). And remember that all magic power of destruction(Materias) is pure Lifestream condensed.
The corrupted Lifestream was more powerfull than the pure one.

The Lifestream is like the Statues of FFVI. All magic and life exist because of it. Who have controll over it, is a god. Sephiroth has controll over it in AC, so, he is a god. Is very simple.
11-27-2006, 10:41 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by feioncastor

Well, you'd have to define "destroying the surface of the Earth". Kefka turned two or three continents into about 20. The water isn't blue anymore. The ground is all dirt and dead plants, and you don't see grass growing anywhere.

Well, much of that isn't too hard to accomplish, and I do recall some lines about tossing the statues around screwing up the planet below, but it's been awhile since my last playthrough of Six. It's also questionable whether the wasting is his direct fault, or a side affect of him attempting to horde magic. Still, people and plants are alive all over the planet, and it seems to restore itself nigh instantly after his death, so it's questionable how devastating his effects actually are.

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However, it really doesn't matter which is more powerful because power doesn't make you evil. By the end of FF6, I can tell you that my team was powerful enough to go around the world and kill every human on the planet. But we're not villains, so we don't do that.

Look at President Shinra. He's rather villainous, but he certainly isn't that powerful.

No, but part of the thread swerved off into how powerful each villain might be. I agree that villainy and power are not always synonymous, but having power helps. For example. Imagine if Pres Shinra was just a man in a hut. Wouldn't be very villainous, would he?

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So instead of comparing who would win in a fight, you should be comparing which of the two is a better villain.

And that's so horribly subjective that it's almost not worth comparing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

A) We don't know, because Cloud deffeated him, and Aerith destroyed his will(with her holly rain) before he could end the process.

To begin with, I wasn't just referring to Sephypoo. Secondly, Aerith's rain does not seem to have had much, if anything to do with his will dispersing, as it had jack for effect on Kadaj (her voice, on the other hand...). Not to mention, without an established time frame, the wattage of the event, and thus the power, can't be measured.

Quote:

B) He would at least kill all life in the planet, and transform the planet in a "space ship" to travell the cosmos.

Which tells us nothing about methodology. For as much info as you provide, he could simply be setting off a nuke someone else built. Fortunately, we do know more than what you provided, and from that knowledge, Sephy's plan seems to have been similar to The IIfa tree's, in that he planned on stopping new life by converting corrupted life into things he could control.

Quote:

C) "On a Way to a Smile" show to us that the pure Lifestream have a great power of destruction(hell, just look at what the Junon Mako(pure Lifestream) Cannon can do in the game). And remember that all magic power of destruction(Materias) is pure Lifestream condensed.
The corrupted Lifestream was more powerfull than the pure one.

Actually, Materia is crystalized knowledge, which allows one to manipulate the lifestream. Small distinction. And source on the Corrupted outpowering the normal?

Quote:

The Lifestream is like the Statues of FFVI. All magic and life exist because of it. Who have controll over it, is a god. Sephiroth has controll over it in AC, so, he is a god. Is very simple.

Except he does not control all of it, same as Kefka did not control all magic in FF6. Not all gods are created equal. Thor could beat the crap out of Ares, and such.
11-28-2006, 12:58 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

To begin with, I wasn't just referring to Sephypoo. Secondly, Aerith's rain does not seem to have had much, if anything to do with his will dispersing, as it had jack for effect on Kadaj (her voice, on the other hand...). Not to mention, without an established time frame, the wattage of the event, and thus the power, can't be measured.

Aerith's Great Gospel is a cure spell. She can cure people of injuries, Geostigma, etc. The SHM are made of Lifestream corrupted by Sephiroth's will. During the movie, is showed to us that Aerith has much more controll over the Lifestream than during the game(she was more powerfull), and with this power, she destroyed Sephiroth's will over the Lifestream(making the SHM become pure Lifestream again, and disapear). That don't have anything to do with her voice.

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Which tells us nothing about methodology. For as much info as you provide, he could simply be setting off a nuke someone else built. Fortunately, we do know more than what you provided, and from that knowledge, Sephy's plan seems to have been similar to The IIfa tree's, in that he planned on stopping new life by converting corrupted life into things he could control.

Yeah, and "these" "things he could control" is the source of all power in the FFVII universe.

Quote:

Actually, Materia is crystalized knowledge, which allows one to manipulate the lifestream. Small distinction. And source on the Corrupted outpowering the normal?

Normal Lifestream is very powerfull, as a force of destruction and as a power that can cure others(like Aerith did in the movie). But the corrupted Lifestream was not affected by it, was the contrary, the corrupted one was affecting the pure one(corrupting it). The truth is that the corrupted Lifestream by itself, is not really more powerfull than the pure one, but with Sephiroth's will controlling it, it was more powerfull.
After Cloud deffeated Sephiroth his will was more weak, and then Aerith could use her Great Gospel to destroy the rest of it.

Quote:

Except he does not control all of it, same as Kefka did not control all magic in FF6. Not all gods are created equal. Thor could beat the crap out of Ares, and such.

But Sephiroth can controll all the magic if he want, but Kefka can't.
For example, someone attack Kefka with a magic that is not related to the statues. What he can do? Deffend himself. Now someone attack Sephiroth with magic(created by the Lifestream, in FFVII world). What he can do? He can corrupt the Lifestream, and controll the magic that is used against him. If Sephiroth wasn't deffeated in the end of AC, he would have corrupted all the Lifestream without any problem, because the power of his will and his corrupted Lifestream was more powerfull than the pure one.

Little scenario that help to understand what i'm saying:

Kefka: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world!
*Someone attack Kefka with a magic spell not related with the Godesses*
Kefka: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic!

Sephiroth: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the pure Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it*
Sephiroth: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic... yet.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it... But nothing happens*
Guy: Where is my magic?! Why nothing happened?!
Sephiroth: Because the part of the Lifestream that you was using to create magic, is already corrupted by me. Your magic now, is my magic.
Guy: Oh crap!
*Guy die*
11-28-2006, 02:18 AM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

I don’t know about Kefka but with Kuja I never really hated him or the bad guy in X or 8 but with 7 I really wanted to kill Sephiroth more then completing the game, that’s what made him a great villain for me.

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

On topic:
@ Crystal about Sephy being able to control people's magic; There is no proof that Sephy can do that. These things you say are probably assumed by the things you see he has done in FFVII and AC. One could also say Sephy CAN destroy the Solar System with Super Nova, but we all know it was just a cool looking attack the Square made for Sephy, and nothing more.
11-28-2006, 02:24 AM
Forsaken Lover

Quote:

Sephiroth: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the pure Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it*
Sephiroth: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic... yet.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it... But nothing happens*
Guy: Where is my magic?! Why nothing happened?!
Sephiroth: Because the part of the Lifestream that you was using to create magic, is already corrupted by me. Your magic now, is my magic.
Guy: Oh crap!
*Guy die*

That’s all quite fascinating. I do understand that power is not everything but again, his evilness pales totally in comparison to Kuja and Kefka’s. He’s had 2 resurrections now and still not even at half of what they did with one.

So, let’s talk in terms of power. Kuja did not control the source of all life. He controlled some souls in one single place and used it with his own anger to become more powerful than Sephiroth could dream. Kefka used the Goddess Statues and leisurely wiped out population centers when he felt like it. So, those two outweigh “dark clouds.”

Now, onto my original list.

1. Hulk Hogan-
Simple. The ultimate combo. Hulk Up. Finger point. 3 punches. Big Boot. Leg Drop. It’s over.
2. Albedo-
Cutting off his head can’t kill him. Reducing him to particles can’t kill him.
3. Any of the Testaments-
The Testaments control space-time. They are beyond any and all laws of physics in the known universe and impervious to damage or being killed unless the Testament or their creator in fact wills it so.
4. KOS-MOS-
Has the power to confront and battle with God as seen in a possible future.The battle resulted in universal destruction.
5. Id-
Wields the power of the god of Xenogears and was destroying entire countries.
6. Kain (LoK)-
TK. Soul Reaver shot. Over.
7. Raziel (LoK)-
TK. Devour soul. Over.
8. Lavos-
Lavos was everything Sephiroth wanted to be....
9. Ness-
Swings for the fences, batting 1000 on Seph’s head. Or, more easily, makes his head explode.
10. Emperor Palpatine of the Star Wars Expanded Universe.-
Force Storm. Over.
11-28-2006, 03:29 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

I don't want to be annoying, but Chrisfffan is just saying his opinion about Sephiroth, and what is a good villain to him. He is on-topic so, what is the problem?

Quote:

On topic:
@ Crystal about Sephy being able to control people's magic; There is no proof that Sephy can do that. These things you say are probably assumed by the things you see he has done in FFVII and AC. One could also say Sephy CAN destroy the Solar System with Super Nova, but we all know it was just a cool looking attack the Square made for Sephy, and nothing more.

Yeah, there is no prove that he can do that. But the Super Nova don't make any sense, because he destroy the Solar System many times, and nothing happens to you.
But the Lifestream is the source of all the magic in the world. Sephiroth can controll it, Sephiroth can controll magic. This make sense(contrary of Super Nova, that don't).
11-28-2006, 05:37 PM
YTDN

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

To begin with, I wasn't just referring to Sephypoo. Secondly, Aerith's rain does not seem to have had much, if anything to do with his will dispersing, as it had jack for effect on Kadaj (her voice, on the other hand...). Not to mention, without an established time frame, the wattage of the event, and thus the power, can't be measured.

Aerith's Great Gospel is a cure spell. She can cure people of injuries, Geostigma, etc. The SHM are made of Lifestream corrupted by Sephiroth's will. During the movie, is showed to us that Aerith has much more controll over the Lifestream than during the game(she was more powerfull), and with this power, she destroyed Sephiroth's will over the Lifestream(making the SHM become pure Lifestream again, and disapear). That don't have anything to do with her voice.

Quote:

Which tells us nothing about methodology. For as much info as you provide, he could simply be setting off a nuke someone else built. Fortunately, we do know more than what you provided, and from that knowledge, Sephy's plan seems to have been similar to The IIfa tree's, in that he planned on stopping new life by converting corrupted life into things he could control.

Yeah, and "these" "things he could control" is the source of all power in the FFVII universe.

Quote:

Actually, Materia is crystalized knowledge, which allows one to manipulate the lifestream. Small distinction. And source on the Corrupted outpowering the normal?

Normal Lifestream is very powerfull, as a force of destruction and as a power that can cure others(like Aerith did in the movie). But the corrupted Lifestream was not affected by it, was the contrary, the corrupted one was affecting the pure one(corrupting it). The truth is that the corrupted Lifestream by itself, is not really more powerfull than the pure one, but with Sephiroth's will controlling it, it was more powerfull.
After Cloud deffeated Sephiroth his will was more weak, and then Aerith could use her Great Gospel to destroy the rest of it.

Quote:

Except he does not control all of it, same as Kefka did not control all magic in FF6. Not all gods are created equal. Thor could beat the crap out of Ares, and such.

But Sephiroth can controll all the magic if he want, but Kefka can't.
For example, someone attack Kefka with a magic that is not related to the statues. What he can do? Deffend himself. Now someone attack Sephiroth with magic(created by the Lifestream, in FFVII world). What he can do? He can corrupt the Lifestream, and controll the magic that is used against him. If Sephiroth wasn't deffeated in the end of AC, he would have corrupted all the Lifestream without any problem, because the power of his will and his corrupted Lifestream was more powerfull than the pure one.

Little scenario that help to understand what i'm saying:

Kefka: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world!
*Someone attack Kefka with a magic spell not related with the Godesses*
Kefka: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic!

Sephiroth: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the pure Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it*
Sephiroth: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic... yet.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it... But nothing happens*
Guy: Where is my magic?! Why nothing happened?!
Sephiroth: Because the part of the Lifestream that you was using to create magic, is already corrupted by me. Your magic now, is my magic.
Guy: Oh crap!
*Guy die*

But what if someone attacked Sephy with magic not from the Lifestream? You are trying to say that Sephy is stronger by showing the scenario of non-Goddess related magic killing Kefka, but you are being unfair by not having non-Lifestream related magic attacking Sephy.
11-28-2006, 06:01 PM
Christmas

Quote:

is Sephiroth the best bad guy in the series?

NO.
11-28-2006, 06:55 PM
Rocket Edge

He is. Very original.
11-28-2006, 07:34 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

But what if someone attacked Sephy with magic not from the Lifestream? You are trying to say that Sephy is stronger by showing the scenario of non-Goddess related magic killing Kefka, but you are being unfair by not having non-Lifestream related magic attacking Sephy.

But in FFVI universe, exist some non-Goddess related magic. In FFVII don't. All magic in FFVII exist because of the Lifestream, NOTHING is not related to it. Meaning that in his world, Sephiroth is more powerfull and a more big threat, than Kefka is in his world.
11-28-2006, 07:43 PM
YTDN

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

But what if someone attacked Sephy with magic not from the Lifestream? You are trying to say that Sephy is stronger by showing the scenario of non-Goddess related magic killing Kefka, but you are being unfair by not having non-Lifestream related magic attacking Sephy.

But in FFVI universe, exist some non-Goddess related magic. In FFVII don't. All magic in FFVII exist because of the Lifestream, NOTHING is not related to it. Meaning that in his world, Sephiroth is more powerfull and a more big threat, than Kefka is in his world.

Name non-Godess related magic in the FFVI world. Even the Espers and Magicite are related to the Goddess'.
11-28-2006, 07:53 PM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

Name non-Godess related magic in the FFVI world. Even the Espers and Magicite are related to the Goddess'.

This is prolly the most correct statement ever put in this thread. When Kefka and the Goddess statues are destroyed -all- magic ceases to exist. Not like in the FFX world when all the summons go away but you can obviously be a black mage or white mage in FFX-2. When the statues go, so does magic even the simple ones like fire.
11-28-2006, 09:27 PM
The Crystal

Sorry but i never played FFVI. Ryushikaze said that Kefka didn't have controll over all magic, and what i know about the game is that is possible to hurt(and kill) Kefka with magic, and because of this, i thought that existed some magic not related to the Goddesses(i heard that the power of the Espers are not related to their power).
If Kefka have controll over all magic, how the heros could kill him with it?!
11-28-2006, 11:49 PM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Sorry but i never played FFVI. Ryushikaze said that Kefka didn't have controll over all magic, and what i know about the game is that is possible to hurt(and kill) Kefka with magic, and because of this, i thought that existed some magic not related to the Goddesses(i heard that the power of the Espers are not related to their power).
If Kefka have controll over all magic, how the heros could kill him with it?!

Kefka did have control over all magic. It's just that other people ALSO probably had control over it. For example, Ifrit is the demon of fire and controls all fire magic, but it doesn't mean you can't use Fire spells as well. This is my guess. Besides, the heros beat Kefka because Square had let you beat him SOMEHOW.

And also, somehow, even if Sephy did control the Lifestream, I still think you would be able to use a certain magic. After all, monsters in FFVII had magic as well. It just means he can have access to all magic, but I don't think he could restrict other people from using it.
11-29-2006, 03:17 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Sorry but i never played FFVI. Ryushikaze said that Kefka didn't have controll over all magic, and what i know about the game is that is possible to hurt(and kill) Kefka with magic, and because of this, i thought that existed some magic not related to the Goddesses(i heard that the power of the Espers are not related to their power).
If Kefka have controll over all magic, how the heros could kill him with it?!

Kefka did have control over all magic. It's just that other people ALSO probably had control over it. For example, Ifrit is the demon of fire and controls all fire magic, but it doesn't mean you can't use Fire spells as well. This is my guess. Besides, the heros beat Kefka because Square had let you beat him SOMEHOW.

And also, somehow, even if Sephy did control the Lifestream, I still think you would be able to use a certain magic. After all, monsters in FFVII had magic as well. It just means he can have access to all magic, but I don't think he could restrict other people from using it.

At the end of the game after Kefka's defeat the party starts to freak because Terra is half-esper and Espers die. The main reason Terra lived after Kefka's defeat was because she found her humanity (by caring for the children in Molbiz) if anything, watch the ending, Espers go, Magic goes and for like 2 minutes everyone thinks Terra's going to go until someone conveinently says she's HALF esper.
Ifrit was an Esper, I got his magicite, he died from Magic Extraction. =[
He existed because of the Goddess' statues (which we do realize they arn't all named 'Goddess' right?) Kefka was extracting the magic from each esper, since Espers and Magic are on the same line as the statues, he went for the largest concentration of magic he could, and obviously he got it, then he died, the statues broke, and magic ceases to exist. It says it at the end.
:razz:
11-29-2006, 04:57 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Sorry but i never played FFVI. Ryushikaze said that Kefka didn't have controll over all magic, and what i know about the game is that is possible to hurt(and kill) Kefka with magic, and because of this, i thought that existed some magic not related to the Goddesses(i heard that the power of the Espers are not related to their power).
If Kefka have controll over all magic, how the heros could kill him with it?!

Kefka did have control over all magic. It's just that other people ALSO probably had control over it. For example, Ifrit is the demon of fire and controls all fire magic, but it doesn't mean you can't use Fire spells as well. This is my guess. Besides, the heros beat Kefka because Square had let you beat him SOMEHOW.

And also, somehow, even if Sephy did control the Lifestream, I still think you would be able to use a certain magic. After all, monsters in FFVII had magic as well. It just means he can have access to all magic, but I don't think he could restrict other people from using it.

Ah, i understand now. Yeah, maybe this is what happened. But i think that if he was the source of all magic, the spells that were threw against him should have made him more powerfull, not more weak.
Ah, and in the "even if Sephy did control the Lifestream", please, remove the "even if". He made his tainted Lifestream cover the entire sky, with just a wave of his hand. Sephiroth could controll the Lifestream. Don't exist any "if" or "but" about this.

Sephiroth have poor motives, and don't have any personality at all. But talking about power, he practically have the same power of Kefka. People are used to think that Sephiroth is more weak than Kefka, because of what they did in their games. But the truth is that, in AC, Sephiroth reached the same power level of Kefka.
Kefka fans, i'm sorry, but this is the truth, you like it or not.
11-29-2006, 05:44 AM
Avarice-ness

What I don't understand is if Sephiroth had power over the lifestream to the extent you say, why didn't he just flood the world with lifestream. The lifestream almost killed Cloud (alot of things almost kill Cloud though..) so it should do a fairly good damage to the worlds population. I'm also pretty sure I hit Sephiroth with magic a couple of thousand times.

And you understanding PuPu was wrong(No offense to Pu), Kefka wasn't the source of all power by any means but at one point, while in the middle of the statue triad, spells are thrown at him, they're just basically deflected into nothing. No final boss absorbs magic, if that happens when the world of video games is screwed.

Point being, Magic = Statues, No Statues = No Magic, Espers = Magic, No Statues = No Espers.

I'm also pretty sure I hit Sephiroth with magic a couple of thousand times.
11-29-2006, 06:05 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

What I don't understand is if Sephiroth had power over the lifestream to the extent you say, why didn't he just flood the world with lifestream. The lifestream almost killed Cloud (alot of things almost kill Cloud though..) so it should do a fairly good damage to the worlds population. I'm also pretty sure I hit Sephiroth with magic a couple of thousand times.

You have to understand that i'm talking about AC Sephiroth. In AC he was litterally, a god. He has controll over most of the Lifestream(that have the same power of the Goddesses) and could corrupt the rest of it, easilly.
You question me, if he had so much power why didn't he just flood the world with Lifestream? But this was exactly what he was doing in the end of AC. Tainted Lifestream covered the sky, and then begun to descend like "tentacles", to destroy everything.
And Sephiroth was deffeated in AC, only because he decided not to use his full power, and only play with Cloud. Kefka would not destroy the world, before making people suffer. And Sephiroth would not destroy the world before making Cloud suffer. But the truth is that, both of them could have destroyed the entire world/s if they wanted.
11-29-2006, 10:37 AM
Forsaken Lover

*yawn* Destroy a world? Kuja was there. Did that. He's onto bigger things...like destroying existence. While it was a plot device, it was clearly intended to show hwo he surpassed everyone. He DID destroy a planet which all of them failed to do for one reason or another and he was going onto wipig out existence.
11-29-2006, 03:02 PM
Dell

No, he is not. Not Kuja or Kefka, either.

Vayne, FTW! I don't feel like backing-up my opinion.
11-29-2006, 10:04 PM
PuPu

Sephy didn't control all of Lifestream. Maybe about 1/2. This is my reason why:

In FFVII, Sephy said he wanted to use Meteor, not to destroy the world, but to leave a huge dent on it. Then he said Lifestream would come and heal that part of the planet, so he could absorb Lifestream's power and become a god. If he did have control of all of it already, he would have already won.

I'm not too sure about AC though, because he did use Geostigma to corrupt it, but it didn't really go much further than that. After all, the movie was mainly about Cloud and his own problems.

One thing I'm also not sure about is if Aerith controls some portion the "pure" Lifestream. I know Lifestream is controlled by the planet, but I'm thinking that maybe she does too, because in the end of FFVII, after it shows Lifestream gathering around Holy to stop Meteor and then shows Aerith. I'm thinking it means that she was the one responsible for that. And in AC, she also cured Geostigma and purifying the Lifestream which Sephy tainted in the end of the movie.
11-29-2006, 11:17 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Aerith's Great Gospel is a cure spell. She can cure people of injuries, Geostigma, etc. The SHM are made of Lifestream corrupted by Sephiroth's will. During the movie, is showed to us that Aerith has much more controll over the Lifestream than during the game(she was more powerfull), and with this power, she destroyed Sephiroth's will over the Lifestream(making the SHM become pure Lifestream again, and disapear). That don't have anything to do with her voice.

Except her GG had absolutely no effect on Kadaj, who remained perfectly coherent until her voice, her words, convinced him to 'return'. As for the tainted stream, it was already dissolving after Cloud's whupassing of Sephypoo, so Aerith's contribution is questionable.
I'm also curious where you're getting that Aerith had more control over the lifestream in AC, since she didn't do a grand lot with it in the movie (not that she did a lot on her own in the game either, but eh)

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Yeah, and "these" "things he could control" is the source of all power in the FFVII universe.

Which he did not control all of.

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Normal Lifestream is very powerfull, as a force of destruction and as a power that can cure others(like Aerith did in the movie).

Lifestream is raw energy, raw life energy. Great Gospel is merely a thing one does with it.

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But the corrupted Lifestream was not affected by it, was the contrary, the corrupted one was affecting the pure one(corrupting it). The truth is that the corrupted Lifestream by itself, is not really more powerfull than the pure one, but with Sephiroth's will controlling it, it was more powerfull.
After Cloud deffeated Sephiroth his will was more weak, and then Aerith could use her Great Gospel to destroy the rest of it.

As mentioned, it vanished at Sephy's defeat. Aerith's GG happened after that. I've seen logical fallcies in my day, but "Event A occured before Event B, thefore B caused A" is a new one.
And no. The corrupted lifestream was not tainting the untainted. Pure was turned into tainted by a long and complex conversion process (Geostigma), and it began purifying as soon as what was keeping it contaminated vanished. I'd say pure outpowered tainted.

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But Sephiroth can controll all the magic if he want, but Kefka can't.

No. Sephiroth cannot. And if you wish to insist he can, PROVE IT.

Quote:

For example, someone attack Kefka with a magic that is not related to the statues. What he can do? Deffend himself. Now someone attack Sephiroth with magic(created by the Lifestream, in FFVII world). What he can do? He can corrupt the Lifestream, and controll the magic that is used against him. If Sephiroth wasn't deffeated in the end of AC, he would have corrupted all the Lifestream without any problem, because the power of his will and his corrupted Lifestream was more powerfull than the pure one.

As other people have said, there is no such thing as non Goddess Magic.

Quote:

Little scenario that help to understand what i'm saying:

Kefka: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world!
*Someone attack Kefka with a magic spell not related with the Godesses*
Kefka: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic!

Sephiroth: You cannot kill me, because i controll all magic in the world.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the pure Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it*
Sephiroth: Crap, i don't have controll over your magic... yet.
*Someone use a Materia to manipulate the Lifestream, creating magic, and attacking Sephiroth with it... But nothing happens*
Guy: Where is my magic?! Why nothing happened?!
Sephiroth: Because the part of the Lifestream that you was using to create magic, is already corrupted by me. Your magic now, is my magic.
Guy: Oh crap!
*Guy die*

Except that A: Kefka DOES control the source of all magic (he does not have perfect control of it), and B: Sephiroth does NOT control the source of all magic (he controls part of the source, and there's NO reason to think he can restrict access to magic.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Sephy didn't control all of Lifestream. Maybe about 1/2. This is my reason why:

In FFVII, Sephy said he wanted to use Meteor, not to destroy the world, but to leave a huge dent on it. Then he said Lifestream would come and heal that part of the planet, so he could absorb Lifestream's power and become a god. If he did have control of all of it already, he would have already won.

I'm not too sure about AC though, because he did use Geostigma to corrupt it, but it didn't really go much further than that. After all, the movie was mainly about Cloud and his own problems.

One thing I'm also not sure about is if Aerith controls some portion the "pure" Lifestream. I know Lifestream is controlled by the planet, but I'm thinking that maybe she does too, because in the end of FFVII, after it shows Lifestream gathering around Holy to stop Meteor and then shows Aerith. I'm thinking it means that she was the one responsible for that. And in AC, she also cured Geostigma and purifying the Lifestream which Sephy tainted in the end of the movie.

Aerith only said "Come on guys, let's go!". It was collective souls of the dead who shoved the lifestream. She did cure Geostigma, but I think it was more the defeat of Sephiroth's will by Cloud that was responsible for the tainted stream purifying, since it began vanishing before Aerith did her thing.
11-29-2006, 11:39 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Except her GG had absolutely no effect on Kadaj, who remained perfectly coherent until her voice, her words, convinced him to 'return'.

She was puryfing him. She cannot do it instantlly, this is why he remained perfectly coherent during a little time.

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Which he did not control all of.

But he controlled the majority of it, and could EASILLY controll the rest by corrupting it.

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And no. The corrupted lifestream was not tainting the untainted. Pure was turned into tainted by a long and complex conversion process (Geostigma), and it began purifying as soon as what was keeping it contaminated vanished. I'd say pure outpowered tainted.

Wrong. This "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.

Quote:

No. Sephiroth cannot. And if you wish to insist he can, PROVE IT.

The source of all magic in FFVII is the Lifestream. Sephiroth made it cover the entire sky with just a wave of his hand.

Quote:

Aerith only said "Come on guys, let's go!". It was collective souls of the dead who shoved the lifestream. She did cure Geostigma, but I think it was more the defeat of Sephiroth's will by Cloud that was responsible for the tainted stream purifying, since it began vanishing before Aerith did her thing.

I think that both Cloud and Aerith are equallly responsible for Sephiroth's dead in AC.

And PuPu, you are right, Sephiroth didn't controll all the Lifestream, but he controlled the majority of it, and could corrupt and controll the pure one, very easy.

When i say that Sephiroth controll all the Lifestream, i'm saying that he can controll all of it easilly. Even if he didn't controll the pure one in the end of the movie, he could corrupt it easilly, because in that time, his Lifestream was more big and powerfull than the original one.
Is like if Kefka didn't have controll over the Godesses, but have controll over a dark version of the Goddesses(with the same powers of the original ones), that could corrupt the "pure" Goddesses and controll them.

The topics that i didn't answered to you Ryushikaze, is because i think that you can be right about them.
12-01-2006, 01:23 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

She was puryfing him. She cannot do it instantlly, this is why he remained perfectly coherent during a little time.

So, your evidence for Aerith purifying Kadaj via the rain is a lack of any indication that he is being affected by it. RIIIIIGHT.

Quote:

But he controlled the majority of it, and could EASILLY controll the rest by corrupting it.

Please, a source on "majority", and "Easily", si vous plait.

Quote:

Wrong. This "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.

Only, not. Because nothing in ANY Advent Children resource even HINTS that he can do this.

Quote:

The source of all magic in FFVII is the Lifestream. Sephiroth made it cover the entire sky with just a wave of his hand.

Which is decently impressive, but it hardly proves your original claim (And it was only about the scope of Migdar, not the 'entire sky'

Quote:

I think that both Cloud and Aerith are equallly responsible for Sephiroth's dead in AC.

And with that, we are at somewhat of an impasse, since neither of us has evidence, but given I'm basically arguing the negative case and simple explanations, I think parsimony currently favors my analysis.

Quote:

And PuPu, you are right, Sephiroth didn't controll all the Lifestream, but he controlled the majority of it, and could corrupt and controll the pure one, very easy.

See above on sourcing.

Quote:

When i say that Sephiroth controll all the Lifestream, i'm saying that he can controll all of it easilly. Even if he didn't controll the pure one in the end of the movie, he could corrupt it easilly, because in that time, his Lifestream was more big and powerfull than the original one.

Source? Numbers? ANYTHING other than unsubstantiated claim?

Quote:

Is like if Kefka didn't have controll over the Godesses, but have controll over a dark version of the Goddesses(with the same powers of the original ones), that could corrupt the "pure" Goddesses and controll them.

Yes, that is a decent analogy of your claim. Problem- It too does not substantiate said claim.

Quote:

The topics that i didn't answered to you Ryushikaze, is because i think that you can be right about them.

Good to know.
12-01-2006, 05:29 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

So, your evidence for Aerith purifying Kadaj via the rain is a lack of any indication that he is being affected by it. RIIIIIGHT.

We know that the GG have the power to cure. But we know that Aerith's voice don't have any power. Her rain was falling over Kadaj's body(corrupted("sick") Lifestream). And now, you are saying that GG didn't was responsible for Kadaj's dead, but her voice(that we know don't have any special power) was?! This don't make any sense, and you know it.

Quote:

Please, a source on "majority", and "Easily", si vous plait.

I'm just using logic. I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).
The fact is, Sephiroth's Lifestream was more powerfull than the original one. This is why the Reunion Files say that he is the most powerfull being in FFVII universe, because no one is more powerfull than the pure Lifestream in the FFVII Compilation, with exception of him.

Quote:

Only, not. Because nothing in ANY Advent Children resource even HINTS that he can do this.

Well, the movie hints. In the end of it, the tainted Lifestream begun to descend in form of "tentacles" to begun the process of destroying the world. In this moment, is very obvious that the tainted one became more powerful than the pure one, even because the pure one didn't try to stop the tainted one(like it did with meteor in the end of FFVII), because the pure one didn't have the power to do it.

Quote:

Which is decently impressive, but it hardly proves your original claim (And it was only about the scope of Migdar, not the 'entire sky'

MANY people died by Geostigma during the two years between FFVII and AC, how you know that the tainted one was not big enough to cover the entire planet(considering that Sephiroth's plan was to destroy all of it)?
And my original claim was that he could controll all the Lifestream if he wanted(by corrupting it), what is the truth.

Quote:

And with that, we are at somewhat of an impasse, since neither of us has evidence, but given I'm basically arguing the negative case and simple explanations, I think parsimony currently favors my analysis.

You belive that Aerith's voice is more powerful than her Great Gospel! I'm sorry, but i don't think you are right.

Quote:

See above on sourcing.

I'm just using logic. I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).

Quote:

Source? Numbers? ANYTHING other than unsubstantiated claim?

Read what i writed in the topic above.

Quote:

Yes, that is a decent analogy of your claim. Problem- It too does not substantiate said claim.

Read my explanations above.

The fact is: The Lifestream is the source of all magic and power in FFVII universe, and Omega Weapon is capable of controlling all of it, meaning that OW is the god of FFVII. The Reunion Files said that Sephiroth is, and will ever be, the most powerfull being of FFVII world, meaning that he is more powerful than OW itself.
AC Sephiroth is more powerfull than the god of FFVII world!

BUT thinking well, in a fight, Sephiroth would lose to Kefka, because Sephiroth don't have controll over all magic yet, but Kefka have. And Sephiroth cannot controll Kefka's magic, because it don't have anything to do with the Lifestream.
12-01-2006, 05:37 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

So, your evidence for Aerith purifying Kadaj via the rain is a lack of any indication that he is being affected by it. RIIIIIGHT.

We know that the GG have the power to cure. But we know that Aerith's voice don't have any power. Her rain was falling over Kadaj's body(corrupted("sick") Lifestream). And now, you are saying that GG didn't was responsible for Kadaj's dead, but her voice(that we know don't have any special power) was?! This don't make any sense, and you know it.

Actually I agree with this, When she started talking he believed she was mother and for once in the movie he seemed happy or content, I think him going up was by his own choice because he wanted to be with mother, he finally found her so his mission was over.
12-01-2006, 05:56 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

We know that the GG have the power to cure. But we know that Aerith's voice don't have any power. Her rain was falling over Kadaj's body(corrupted("sick") Lifestream). And now, you are saying that GG didn't was responsible for Kadaj's dead, but her voice(that we know don't have any special power) was?! This don't make any sense, and you know it.

Kadaj reacted Aerith's voice far more than he did to the raindrops. And don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying she had a special power. I am saying HER VOICE convinced Kadaj to willingly revert into life energy.

Quote:

I'm just using logic.

And logic based on false premises will lead to a faulty conclusion.

Quote:

I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).
The fact is, Sephiroth's Lifestream was more powerfull than the original one. This is why the Reunion Files say that he is the most powerfull being in FFVII universe, because no one is more powerfull than the pure Lifestream in the FFVII Compilation, with exception of him.

So, "Reunion Files", except you can't give me a quote, or a page. I'm going to make a guess that if I look back through my copy, I will find nothing of the sort in it.

Quote:

Well, the movie hints. In the end of it, the tainted Lifestream begun to descend in form of "tentacles" to begun the process of destroying the world. In this moment, is very obvious that the tainted one became more powerful than the pure one, even because the pure one didn't try to stop the tainted one(like it did with meteor in the end of FFVII), because the pure one didn't have the power to do it.

We are not watching the same movie, since the tainted lifestream did no such thing. The most it did was look imposing.

Quote:

MANY people died by Geostigma during the two years between FFVII and AC, how you know that the tainted one was not big enough to cover the entire planet(considering that Sephiroth's plan was to destroy all of it)?

How do YOU know that it was?

Quote:

And my original claim was that he could controll all the Lifestream if he wanted(by corrupting it), what is the truth.

No. It is not the truth. It may eventually be true that he can control all of it, but it is not currently the case.

Quote:

You belive that Aerith's voice is more powerful than her Great Gospel! I'm sorry, but i don't think you are right.

I never said that. Power is not the direct consideration. I do, however, think Aerith's words had more of an effect than her magic, in the case of Kadaj.

[quote]I'm just using logic. I heard that is said in the Reunion Files, that the "long and complex conversion process" was only necessary during the two years between FFVII and AC. In the end of AC, Sephiroth's corrupted Lifestream was so big, that he could use it to directly attack and corrupt the pure one.
Now, by logic, what that means? That means that his Lifestream was more powerfull(big) than the original one and that he could corrupt the pure one easily(because of this power).

Again, you've "HEARD" that it's in Reunion files, but have nothing more than that.

Quote:

Read what i writed in the topic above.

Your only source something you yourself have not even read, much less been able to cite.

Quote:

Read my explanations above.

Which still do not substantiate said claims.

Quote:

The fact is: The Lifestream is the source of all magic and power in FFVII universe, and Omega Weapon is capable of controlling all of it, meaning that OW is the god of FFVII. The Reunion Files said that Sephiroth is, and will ever be, the most powerfull being of FFVII, meaning that he is more powerful than OW itself.
AC Sephiroth is more powerfull than the god of FFVII world!

'Power' which may have nothing to do with raw energy storage, but instead of will and skill.
Also, I'm assuming you're citing DOC, so could you quote the line that says OW can control all of it?

Quote:

BUT thinking well, in a fight, Sephiroth would lose to Kefka, because Sephiroth don't have controll over all magic yet, but Kefka have. And Sephiroth cannot controll Kefka's magic, because it don't have anything to do with the Lifestream.

And the both of them cry thanks to the Kuja curbstomp.
12-01-2006, 08:01 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Kadaj reacted Aerith's voice far more than he did to the raindrops. And don't get me wrong. I am NOT saying she had a special power. I am saying HER VOICE convinced Kadaj to willingly revert into life energy.

Yeah, but in the same time, her GG was here, so, who can say that it didn't work in him? I was in another thread(in another forum), and people are discussing about it, and my conclusion is that, this is only about interpretation. OR maybe the RF say something about it. Can you see in your copy of the RF?

Quote:

And logic based on false premises will lead to a faulty conclusion.

I don't belive that what they said is false. The guys that i know are great FFVII fans, and they know everything about it. They use informations about the RF in many arguments, and they don't have any motive to lie. Hell, some of them even know japanese.

Quote:

So, "Reunion Files", except you can't give me a quote, or a page. I'm going to make a guess that if I look back through my copy, I will find nothing of the sort in it.

Instead of making a guess, why you just don't look through it? I'm using what i heard about it, but if you have the RF with you, you can look in it, and help both of us in this discussion.

Quote:

We are not watching the same movie, since the tainted lifestream did no such thing. The most it did was look imposing.

You are talking about the part of the "tentacles"? Is in the begin of the fight. Cloud and Sephiroth clash their swords against each other, and then you can see it. Is in the part that the coral begin to sing for the first time.

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How do YOU know that it was?

Like you, i don't know. But considering that he wanted to destroy the entire world with it, what i said is possible.

Quote:

No. It is not the truth. It may eventually be true that he can control all of it, but it is not currently the case.

And this is what i'm saying. He didn't controll all of it, but he could, by corrupting it. This is why i'm saying that he is more powerfull than the Lifestream itself.

Quote:

I never said that. Power is not the direct consideration. I do, however, think Aerith's words had more of an effect than her magic, in the case of Kadaj.

Like i said, this is only about interpretation.

Quote:

Again, you've "HEARD" that it's in Reunion files, but have nothing more than that.

But by your own word, you have more than that. You said that you have the RF. Why you don't pick it, and use it, in this thread?

Quote:

Your only source something you yourself have not even read, much less been able to cite.

If you think that i'm wrong, then why you don't use the RF to prove it?

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Which still do not substantiate said claims.

Use the RF, and prove that i'm wrong then.

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'Power' which may have nothing to do with raw energy storage, but instead of will and skill.

Sephiroth is more powerfull than OW, because he can corrupt and controll it.

Quote:

Also, I'm assuming you're citing DOC, so could you quote the line that says OW can control all of it?

Well, thinking about that, i think that it can't controll all of it. OW can only controll the normal Lifestream, not the stagnant one. The stagnant one make OW more weak, this is why Chaos(made of stagnant Lifestream) Vincent could destroy it. But this doesn't mater, because my argument is that Sephiroth was more powerfull than it. Even if OW could absorb the stagnant Lifestream, Sephiroth could still corrupt it.

Quote:

And the both of them cry thanks to the Kuja curbstomp.

Kefka destroyed a planet too.

Seryously, if you have the RF, why you don't use it to prove your points in this discussion?
12-01-2006, 03:11 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Yeah, but in the same time, her GG was here, so, who can say that it didn't work in him? I was in another thread(in another forum), and people are discussing about it, and my conclusion is that, this is only about interpretation. OR maybe the RF say something about it. Can you see in your copy of the RF?

Yes. In regards to this scene, Nomura said he was glad he was able to show Aerith 'getting through' to Kadaj, so that he 'could find his redemption'. Definitely suggest psychological, rather than mechanistic happenings.

Quote:

I don't belive that what they said is false. The guys that i know are great FFVII fans, and they know everything about it. They use informations about the RF in many arguments, and they don't have any motive to lie. Hell, some of them even know japanese.

If they are fanboys, they have motive to lie, to make their favorite look better. Not proof that they are, but still, it helps to have a page number.

Quote:

Instead of making a guess, why you just don't look through it? I'm using what i heard about it, but if you have the RF with you, you can look in it, and help both of us in this discussion.

Because it was late, I would have to dig it out, and it's 100 pages to sift through. Now that it's early, I can do some of that. Still not seeing it in the Sephiroth or story sections.

Quote:

You are talking about the part of the "tentacles"? Is in the begin of the fight. Cloud and Sephiroth clash their swords against each other, and then you can see it. Is in the part that the coral begin to sing for the first time.

And what was its overall effect? Nada.

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Like you, i don't know. But considering that he wanted to destroy the entire world with it, what i said is possible.

Yes, but possible isn't proof.

Quote:

And this is what i'm saying. He didn't controll all of it, but he could, by corrupting it. This is why i'm saying that he is more powerfull than the Lifestream itself.

Just because you control something does not make you more powerful than it. Control is not always about power. In this case, it is about infection, by taking the weak wills of those dead from lifestream. Most likely, he controls the stream by telling willless dead folk to 'push', the same way it came out at the end of FF7

Quote:

Like i said, this is only about interpretation.

And considering my interpretation does not require an additional hoop to jump through, and looking through, and has support from Reunion files (specifically when they are discussing that scene, and say Aerith 'got through' to him and helped him find redemption), parsimony favors it. Yours, "Great Gospel is responsible, and the reason why it doesn't seem to have an effect is, because, um..."

Quote:

But by your own word, you have more than that. You said that you have the RF. Why you don't pick it, and use it, in this thread?

Because I don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages just to show that you're full of it when you haven't even given us proof one, for one. For two, because YOU need to use it to substantiate your claim.

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If you think that i'm wrong, then why you don't use the RF to prove it?

Quote:

Use the RF, and prove that i'm wrong then.

That's not how it works at all, child. Until you provide me with the relevant citation, I have no reason to believe what you say.
And on a look through the relevant parts, I have even less reason to believe you.

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Sephiroth is more powerfull than OW, because he can corrupt and controll it.

Say what? This you'll definitely have to give a source on.

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Well, thinking about that, i think that it can't controll all of it. OW can only controll the normal Lifestream, not the stagnant one. The stagnant one make OW more weak, this is why Chaos(made of stagnant Lifestream) Vincent could destroy it. But this doesn't mater, because my argument is that Sephiroth was more powerfull than it. Even if OW could absorb the stagnant Lifestream, Sephiroth could still corrupt it.

So, wild, baseless claims, basically. Gotcha. For all you know, Omega could rip the lifestream out of Sephy's grasp, and purify it lickety split, if it were not dormant during the years between 7 and AC. It also is worth noting that stagnant Mako generally does not come about naturally.

Quote:

Kefka destroyed a planet too.

No, Kefka made a planet very sad. Kuja planetbusted.

Quote:

Seryously, if you have the RF, why you don't use it to prove your points in this discussion?

Because until recently, I had no idea what your supposed source was.
12-01-2006, 06:22 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Yes. In regards to this scene, Nomura said he was glad he was able to show Aerith 'getting through' to Kadaj, so that he 'could find his redemption'. Definitely suggest psychological, rather than mechanistic happenings.

The word "suggest" is very important here. And can you show to me what exactly is said in this part?

Quote:

And what was its overall effect? Nada.

How you know? The scene change to the fight between Cloud and Sephiroth, but who said that nothing happened during it. Sephiroth's plan(that he planed during two years) was to use the tainted one, and destroy the planet. He said this to Cloud before the fight. But when he finally summon all the tainted one, nothing happened, just because the scene changed?!
Is like if a guy said to another, that he puted a bomb in a building(in another place). Then we see the bomb in "3...2...1", but then the scene change back to the two guys. You think that the bomb didn't exploded just because the scene changed?

Quote:

Yes, but possible isn't proof.

The same to you.

Quote:

Just because you control something does not make you more powerful than it. Control is not always about power. In this case, it is about infection, by taking the weak wills of those dead from lifestream. Most likely, he controls the stream by telling willless dead folk to 'push', the same way it came out at the end of FF7

Sephiroth didn't just controll it, the tainted one was completely corrupted by Jenova, and in AC, Sephiroth's entire body was made of Jenova cells. The tainted Lifestream was practicaly, part of himself.

Quote:

And considering my interpretation does not require an additional hoop to jump through, and looking through, and has support from Reunion files (specifically when they are discussing that scene, and say Aerith 'got through' to him and helped him find redemption), parsimony favors it. Yours, "Great Gospel is responsible, and the reason why it doesn't seem to have an effect is, because, um..."

I already knew about this part in the RF. But like you said "considering my interpretation...". Yeah exactly, your interpretation, not your fact. Just because Nomura said that he wanted to give Kadaj a moment of redemption before his dead, doesn't mean that he died because of Aerith's voice.

Quote:

Because I don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages just to show that you're full of it when you haven't even given us proof one, for one. For two, because YOU need to use it to substantiate your claim.

Exactly, you don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages(divided in chapters/topics) to prove your point. And you want me to agree with what you say because? If you can prove that you are right, then use the book and prove it. I already said that i cannot prove because i'm only using what i heard, but you can, then why you don't do it? I didn't knew that you have the book, so, when i readed what you writed, i thought that was only your opinion. If you said something like "this is in the RF" then i would not discuss with you.

Quote:

Use the RF, and prove that i'm wrong then.

I'm not the only one that have to prove my point.

Quote:

That's not how it works at all, child. Until you provide me with the relevant citation, I have no reason to believe what you say.
And on a look through the relevant parts, I have even less reason to believe you.

Yeah, that's not how it works at all. You want me to prove my point, but you you don't feel like proving yours.

Quote:

Say what? This you'll definitely have to give a source on.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Quote:

So, wild, baseless claims, basically. Gotcha. For all you know, Omega could rip the lifestream out of Sephy's grasp, and purify it lickety split, if it were not dormant during the years between 7 and AC. It also is worth noting that stagnant Mako generally does not come about naturally.

Read the topic above.

Quote:

No, Kefka made a planet very sad. Kuja planetbusted.

Kuja planetbuted? I don't remember of seeing that? Proves, please.

Quote:

Because until recently, I had no idea what your supposed source was.

But now that you know, you can use it in this thread, to make our life easy. I respect the facts and the official word of SE. If you want me to shut up, just use the RF to prove that i'm wrong.

What i wanted to prove with all this discussion, is that Sephiroth is the most powerful being in FFVII universe.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

This the prove. If you don't like it, this is your problem.
12-01-2006, 08:50 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

The word "suggest" is very important here. And can you show to me what exactly is said in this part?

No, the word suggest is NOT very important, and is more more important than any other time someone decides to not make huge declarative statements lacking proof one. However, I can bevy you with quotes.

P117- Reunion- "Originally, none of the sequences with Kadaj were there, such as the scene where Kadaj feels Aerith's presence and disappears into the rain."
P119, Smiles- "Kadaj finally finds a sense of peace and fades away into the sky."
Kadaj is in both cases the actor, not the acted upon.

Quote:

How you know? The scene change to the fight between Cloud and Sephiroth, but who said that nothing happened during it. Sephiroth's plan(that he planed during two years) was to use the tainted one, and destroy the planet. He said this to Cloud before the fight. But when he finally summon all the tainted one, nothing happened, just because the scene changed?!
Is like if a guy said to another, that he puted a bomb in a building(in another place). Then we see the bomb in "3...2...1", but then the scene change back to the two guys. You think that the bomb didn't exploded just because the scene changed?

Argument from ignorance. You aren't even sure his plan was near completion yet, or that those clouds could DO anything. In fact, Reunion files says the only reason he even showed up was for vengeance against Cloud (P 61, Nojima's quote). It also only refers to the clouds as "Dark Clouds" (p83, the timeline of the events), throwing a serious wrench in your postulate that it's the tainted lifestream.

Quote:

The same to you.

At least I'm decently following scientific method. You're saying "Prove me wrong, Lol!"

Quote:

Sephiroth didn't just controll it, the tainted one was completely corrupted by Jenova, and in AC, Sephiroth's entire body was made of Jenova cells. The tainted Lifestream was practicaly, part of himself.

Source? Because I know that quote is definitely not in RF.

Quote:

I already knew about this part in the RF. But like you said "considering my interpretation...". Yeah exactly, your interpretation, not your fact. Just because Nomura said that he wanted to give Kadaj a moment of redemption before his dead, doesn't mean that he died because of Aerith's voice.

And it also doesn't mean you are automatically correct either, especially when we have contradictory evidence.

Quote:

Exactly, you don't feel like flipping through 100 some pages(divided in chapters/topics) to prove your point. And you want me to agree with what you say because? If you can prove that you are right, then use the book and prove it. I already said that i cannot prove because i'm only using what i heard, but you can, then why you don't do it? I didn't knew that you have the book, so, when i readed what you writed, i thought that was only your opinion. If you said something like "this is in the RF" then i would not discuss with you.

Child, stop attempting to shift the gorram burden of proof onto me. I told why I didn't look through it late at night, and I've gone through and looked through it now. There is JACK in any of the passages describing Sephiroth that suggests what you are talking about, and a more comprehensive look through the minutae uncovers nothing either. You are working from negative leg.

Quote:

I'm not the only one that have to prove my point.

No, but you are the one who has to prove your point.

Quote:

Yeah, that's not how it works at all. You want me to prove my point, but you you don't feel like proving yours.

Actually, that IS how it works. You are making an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence. Your claim is quite a lot more extraordinary than my claim.

Quote:

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

"Stronger" being a very, very, very vague term, in that it is used to refer to will, physical strength, screen presence, etc. Context would help.

Quote:

Read the topic above.

Which STILL does not yet show your stance to be valid.

Quote:

Kuja planetbuted? I don't remember of seeing that? Proves, please.

You see him start doing it, as he casually razes the landscape of Terra, while the Invincible escapes with the party, who comment on him continuing to do it to the rest of the planet, suggesting a BDZ event.

Quote:

But now that you know, you can use it in this thread, to make our life easy. I respect the facts and the official word of SE. If you want me to shut up, just use the RF to prove that i'm wrong.

I think the utter absence of it from Reunion Files pretty much proves it isn't in there.

Quote:

What i wanted to prove with all this discussion, is that Sephiroth is the most powerful being in FFVII universe.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

This the prove. If you don't like it, this is your problem.

See my above request for you to provide context for "strong". Also, Omega Weapon isn't a character.
Nevermind that Sephiroth being the most powerful STILL doesn't substantiate your specific claims, or make him all powerful.
12-01-2006, 09:21 PM
Goldenboko

Quote:

What i wanted to prove with all this discussion, is that Sephiroth is the most powerful being in FFVII universe.

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

This the prove. If you don't like it, this is your problem.

Think for a second how vague strong is. Cloud beat Sephiroth fair and square, it was one on one. Cloud even had the disadvantage of having to fight Kadaaj before the battle, he still won. So in terms of fighting ability we can infer that Cloud is better. And if you say he isn't a better fighter then you didn't pay much attention to the end when Cloud defeated Sephiroth.
12-01-2006, 10:09 PM
The Crystal

I think that what really mater is:

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Your interpretation of "stronger" is different than mine. To me, Kitase was saying that Sephiroth was the most powerful. This is why i'm saying that he can controll the Lifestream easily and etc, because he is most powerful than OW!!

We both have different interpretations of "stronger" and because of this, i think that he is the most powerful in FFVII universe, and you don't, so, lets agree to disagree.
12-01-2006, 10:15 PM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

We both have different interpretations of "stronger" and because of this, i think that he is the most powerful in FFVII universe, and you don't, so, lets agree to disagree.

Exactly thats why you can't go by exactly what SE says.
12-01-2006, 11:49 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Exactly thats why you can't go by exactly what SE says.

Yes, i can. I can interpret the word "stronger" in any way that i want, like you or Ryushikaze can interpret it in different ways too. This is only about opinions, and you cannot say that my opinion is wrong. SE didn't said EXACTLY what was the meaning of the word, meaning that any interpretation is valid.
And about the fight, is obvious that Sephiroth lost because of his arrogance, i don't even need to prove it, just watch the movie.
12-01-2006, 11:57 PM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Exactly thats why you can't go by exactly what SE says.

Yes, i can. I can interpret the word "stronger" in any way that i want, like you or Ryushikaze can interpret it in different ways too. This is only about opinions, and you cannot say that my opinion is wrong. SE didn't said EXACTLY what was the meaning of the word, meaning that any interpretation is valid.
And about the fight, is obvious that Sephiroth lost because of his arrogance, i don't even need to prove it, just watch the movie.

Villians are always arrogant, and always gives them a great reason why they lost. Sephiroth was trying, hard watch the fight closely, sure he was talking trash but in the end we all do that. There was a look of terror in Sephiroth's eyes when Cloud used Omnislash because he realized Cloud was stronger.
12-02-2006, 12:34 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Villians are always arrogant, and always gives them a great reason why they lost. Sephiroth was trying, hard watch the fight closely, sure he was talking trash but in the end we all do that. There was a look of terror in Sephiroth's eyes when Cloud used Omnislash because he realized Cloud was stronger.

Or because he was taken by surprise.
Like i said, i(and many other people) belive in what Kitase said, and think that Sephiroth is much more stronger than anyone(including Cloud), meaning that he lost only because of his arrogance.
Lets just forget it okay? You cannot prove that Sephiroth is that weak, and i cannot prove that he is that powerful.

Forgeting about Sephiroth's powers now, i want to say that he is not a great villain, because he don't have any good motives, and any personality.
12-02-2006, 07:41 AM
YTDN

Personally, I'm with Ryu on this one. The Crystal, your argument seems to revolve around 'show my facts, not interpretation' and 'use your copy of the RF to prove me wrong'. It's like your trying to win by default. Also, you've managed to contradict yourself when you disagreed with Ryu because his argument was an interpretation, but later you stated each of you could interpret words a different way.

Please Continue.
12-02-2006, 07:48 AM
NeoCracker

Cloud is indead stronger than Sephiroth. In both the Game and advant Children they Pictate Cloud as stronger by pitting them in a one on one fight. Strength in a fight is more than shear power, speed, or specific powerful skills. Its also about cunning and battle sense. There isn't much of a debate of who's stronger, as Cloud came out Victorious twice.

That said Sephiroth is only a decent Villian, Jenova better, but not by much.

A real villian my friend is Kefka or Kuja.
12-02-2006, 12:52 PM
chrisfffan

what a muppet!

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

this was posted by some muppet!

look its everyone’s thread the fact that some people have more to say then others doesn’t matter! Im just wondering if anyone thinks their is a villian in the series that you have hated more and wanted to kill! than Sephiroth.
12-02-2006, 03:04 PM
YTDN

Quote:

Originally Posted by corncracker

Cloud is indead stronger than Sephiroth. In both the Game and advant Children they Pictate Cloud as stronger by pitting them in a one on one fight. Strength in a fight is more than shear power, speed, or specific powerful skills. Its also about cunning and battle sense. There isn't much of a debate of who's stronger, as Cloud came out Victorious twice.

That said Sephiroth is only a decent Villian, Jenova better, but not by much.

A real villian my friend is Kefka or Kuja.

Also Cloud has Heroes luck. That is the fact that the hero will always win, even if the odds are stacked highly against them, and the chance of winning is about 0.00000001%. Heroes are the luckiest people on earth.

That being said, villains are the unluckiest people on earth, seeing as their life dreams of world domination/destruction are about to come true, when some hero goes and spoils all their plans in a matter of days.
12-02-2006, 03:18 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

Personally, I'm with Ryu on this one. The Crystal, your argument seems to revolve around 'show my facts, not interpretation' and 'use your copy of the RF to prove me wrong'. It's like your trying to win by default. Also, you've managed to contradict yourself when you disagreed with Ryu because his argument was an interpretation, but later you stated each of you could interpret words a different way.

Please Continue.

What i wanted to prove is that Sephiroth is more powerful than anyone, and i have the word of Kitase in my favor.
But then, Ryu try to distort his word with this BS of interpretation. Ryu is saying that what Kitase wanted to mean is that Sephiroth is more powerful in a controll sense and metaphorical way that related with the metaphysical of... No! If Kitase said that Sephiroth is the more stronger that means that... Sephiroth is the more stronger! The End.
What Ryu is doing is taking the creator's words out of context for personal reasons.

Sephiroth is the more stronger, because i already proved it with the official words of SE.

I'm sorry YTDN, but i don't see any reason to continue, really.
12-02-2006, 03:50 PM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

this was posted by some muppet!

look its everyone’s thread the fact that some people have more to say then others doesn’t matter! Im just wondering if anyone thinks their is a villian in the series that you have hated more and wanted to kill! than Sephiroth.

Yeah but atleast there's some kind of debate going on. I'm fighting for the Kefka side and right now I'm outside the courtroom eating bagles and drinking orange juice. When they start going after Kefka again I'll be posting. Till then I'm quite amused by this arguing, because they're almost agreeing on the same thing, but their different veiws on thing keeps them disagreeing.

It's like saying an apple is red, and someone saying an apple is green. Apples can be red or green it just depends on what you consider to be the idea of an apple.
12-02-2006, 04:17 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Yeah but atleast there's some kind of debate going on. I'm fighting for the Kefka side and right now I'm outside the courtroom eating bagles and drinking orange juice. When they start going after Kefka again I'll be posting. Till then I'm quite amused by this arguing, because they're almost agreeing on the same thing, but their different veiws on thing keeps them disagreeing.

It's like saying an apple is red, and someone saying an apple is green. Apples can be red or green it just depends on what you consider to be the idea of an apple.

I think that the common agreement is that Kefka is more powerfull than Sephiroth, at least this is what i think now.

And about who is right and who is wrong, exist some things that don't need interpretation, and this is one of them. What Kitase said is very clear.
What is happening here, is like if someone post a quote of UOG that say that Sephiroth is controlling Jenova during the game, but then, someone say "but we can give another interpretation to the word "controlling" and etc etc, and that prove that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth!!!". By the word of the UOG, is very clear who was controlling who, and by the word of Kitase, Sephiroth's power in FFVII world is very clear too. Don't exist any "if" or "but" about what he said.
What is happening here is ridiculous. Sephiroth is the more stronger character in FFVII. If anyone don't like it, then talk with Kitase not with me.
12-02-2006, 04:26 PM
NeoCracker

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Yeah but atleast there's some kind of debate going on. I'm fighting for the Kefka side and right now I'm outside the courtroom eating bagles and drinking orange juice. When they start going after Kefka again I'll be posting. Till then I'm quite amused by this arguing, because they're almost agreeing on the same thing, but their different veiws on thing keeps them disagreeing.

It's like saying an apple is red, and someone saying an apple is green. Apples can be red or green it just depends on what you consider to be the idea of an apple.

I think that the common agreement is that Kefka is more powerfull than Sephiroth, at least this is what i think now.

And about who is right and who is wrong, exist some things that don't need interpretation, and this is one of them. What Kitase said is very clear.
What is happening here, is like if someone post a quote of UOG that say that Sephiroth is controlling Jenova during the game, but then, someone say "but we can give another interpretation to the word "controlling" and etc etc, and that prove that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth!!!". By the word of the UOG, is very clear who was controlling who, and by the word of Kitase, Sephiroth's power in FFVII world is very clear too. Don't exist any "if" or "but" about what he said.
What is happening here is ridiculous. Sephiroth is the more stronger character in FFVII. If anyone don't like it, then talk with Kitase not with me.

But to only talk to those who would agree with you get boring. Working against some one on frivilous debates is by far more enjoyable.
12-02-2006, 05:05 PM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

this was posted by some muppet!

look its everyone’s thread the fact that some people have more to say then others doesn’t matter! Im just wondering if anyone thinks their is a villian in the series that you have hated more and wanted to kill! than Sephiroth.

PuPu a muppet oh he's gonna get a kick out of that.

Sorry to break it to you, but your post sounds nothing like what you described.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

I don’t know about Kefka but with Kuja I never really hated him or the bad guy in X or 8 but with 7 I really wanted to kill Sephiroth more then completing the game, that’s what made him a great villain for me.

You asked absolutely no question there.
12-02-2006, 05:25 PM
YTDN

I have come to a reasonable conclusion now. Sephiroth is more powerful than Cloud, and can control the lifestream and stuff, and destroy the world, but his dreams of destroying Cloud and the world will fail, because he suffers from Villain's luck.

Going by that logic, if Kefka and Sephy came up against each other, they would both lose, since a group of heroes would come and destroy them with their Heroes luck.
12-02-2006, 06:50 PM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

this was posted by some muppet!

look its everyone’s thread the fact that some people have more to say then others doesn’t matter! Im just wondering if anyone thinks their is a villian in the series that you have hated more and wanted to kill! than Sephiroth.

The thing is, the only thing you've really done was just continue to spam "Sephy is the best and I hardly have any proof for my claims" for the past few pages. You probably wouldn't like it if I posted "kefka is awesome" over and over again either. Also, people that are actually trying to debate here are posting proofs and reasons for why they think that way and not just their opinions. If you really were 'just wondering' what we all thought, you wouldn't be spamming "Sephy is the best" over and over again. I don't really care that you think Sephy is the best, but just try and give detailed explainations and proofs of why. Expressing your opinion is fine, but everyone else here gives reasons and proofs why they think that way in their posts, something you apparently can't do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

muppet!

I'd probably be more insulted if you didn't just agree with yourself a few pages ago.

On Topic:
Kefka does have more power than Sephiroth, but I doubt Kefka could survive ten slahes in one second by Sephy (KHII). Kefka is stronger is terms of magic, but Sephy is faster and physically stronger.
12-03-2006, 01:39 PM
chrisfffan

i didnt agree with my post it was someboady eles s that i posted i agreed with but i forgot to put their name down alright?
12-03-2006, 02:46 PM
Jimma

Sepiroth spoke weirdly like a mama's boy but unlike any other villian i have encountered (only played 7 8 9 10 and 10-2) he has a mysterious presence backed with the music which in my oponion made people act different around him. He an okay villian but i dont like it how he goes MOTHER all the time.
12-03-2006, 04:31 PM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

It's been said before, but your opinion does not make Sephy a great villain.
Also, no offense, but it doesn't look like anybody is even listening to you anymore. Ryushikaze and The Crystal are basically taking over this thread.

this was posted by some muppet!

look its everyone’s thread the fact that some people have more to say then others doesn’t matter! Im just wondering if anyone thinks their is a villian in the series that you have hated more and wanted to kill! than Sephiroth.

The thing is, the only thing you've really done was just continue to spam "Sephy is the best and I hardly have any proof for my claims" for the past few pages. You probably wouldn't like it if I posted "kefka is awesome" over and over again either. Also, people that are actually trying to debate here are posting proofs and reasons for why they think that way and not just their opinions. If you really were 'just wondering' what we all thought, you wouldn't be spamming "Sephy is the best" over and over again. I don't really care that you think Sephy is the best, but just try and give detailed explainations and proofs of why. Expressing your opinion is fine, but everyone else here gives reasons and proofs why they think that way in their posts, something you apparently can't do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

muppet!

I'd probably be more insulted if you didn't just agree with yourself a few pages ago.

On Topic:
Kefka does have more power than Sephiroth, but I doubt Kefka could survive ten slahes in one second by Sephy (KHII). Kefka is stronger is terms of magic, but Sephy is faster and physically stronger.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

i didnt agree with my post it was someboady eles s that i posted i agreed with but i forgot to put their name down alright?

K kiddes calm down and get back on topic or this thread is gonna get closed faster then you can say mod/admin.
12-03-2006, 06:08 PM
Darth Anarcus

Sephiroth is overrated. I mean, he's still cool and all, but I like Ultimecia and Garland from FF1 better.
12-04-2006, 12:33 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by corncracker

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Yeah but atleast there's some kind of debate going on. I'm fighting for the Kefka side and right now I'm outside the courtroom eating bagles and drinking orange juice. When they start going after Kefka again I'll be posting. Till then I'm quite amused by this arguing, because they're almost agreeing on the same thing, but their different veiws on thing keeps them disagreeing.

It's like saying an apple is red, and someone saying an apple is green. Apples can be red or green it just depends on what you consider to be the idea of an apple.

I think that the common agreement is that Kefka is more powerfull than Sephiroth, at least this is what i think now.

And about who is right and who is wrong, exist some things that don't need interpretation, and this is one of them. What Kitase said is very clear.
What is happening here, is like if someone post a quote of UOG that say that Sephiroth is controlling Jenova during the game, but then, someone say "but we can give another interpretation to the word "controlling" and etc etc, and that prove that Jenova was controlling Sephiroth!!!". By the word of the UOG, is very clear who was controlling who, and by the word of Kitase, Sephiroth's power in FFVII world is very clear too. Don't exist any "if" or "but" about what he said.
What is happening here is ridiculous. Sephiroth is the more stronger character in FFVII. If anyone don't like it, then talk with Kitase not with me.

But to only talk to those who would agree with you get boring. Working against some one on frivilous debates is by far more enjoyable.

Crackers right, I don't really have much to say anymore 'cause the points apparently been made.

Although I'm still trolling around. This is prolly the only thread I'm amused by reading everyday. :)
12-05-2006, 02:37 AM
Forsaken Lover

Well, glad we can all agree after this very lenghty and intriguing topic that Sephiroth is far from the best. miles behind Kuja and Kefka in all categories.
12-05-2006, 06:37 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well, glad we can all agree after this very lenghty and intriguing topic that Sephiroth is far from the best, and is behind Kuja and Kefka in some categories.

Fixed for you.
12-05-2006, 07:04 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well, glad we can all agree after this very lenghty and intriguing topic that Sephiroth is far from the best, and is behind Kuja and Kefka in some categories.

Fixed for you.

So, we're 4Chan now, eh? Better go prepare for the invasion of the /b/tards.

Evidence would be appreciated. Non-vague, non-made up evidence, this time, please. Kitase saying Sephiroth is the strongest character in FF7 (in some undefined category) does not grant him superpowers we've never seen him use. Substantiate your arguments, please. Non sequitors will not be tolerated.

Oh yes- Concession accepted on what you did not address. If you wish to resume arguing these claims, please begin from square one.
12-05-2006, 07:24 AM
chrisfffan

cool

I think that’s a good thing about sephiroth he doesn’t really have any big magic powers apart from at the end, sure he has got normal magic like fira spells, lightning and other ones but he is usually strong enough with his sword I think another great thing about him is he doesn’t really use anyone he doesn’t really give orders theirs a lots of things he could of done better sure I mean all the villains in this series should of done better they all get defeated in the end! but in terms of looks and his speech he’s cool.

and another point I want to make is how can Kuja possibly be the best bad guy if I remember right he gives up and turns good in the end doesn’t he?

Edit by Kishi: Don't double-post.
12-05-2006, 07:51 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well, glad we can all agree after this very lenghty and intriguing topic that Sephiroth is far from the best, and is behind Kuja and Kefka in some categories.

Fixed for you.

So, we're 4Chan now, eh? Better go prepare for the invasion of the /b/tards.

Evidence would be appreciated. Non-vague, non-made up evidence, this time, please. Kitase saying Sephiroth is the strongest character in FF7 (in some undefined category) does not grant him superpowers we've never seen him use. Substantiate your arguments, please. Non sequitors will not be tolerated.

Oh yes- Concession accepted on what you did not address. If you wish to resume arguing these claims, please begin from square one.

Wrong! If Kitase say that Sephiroth is the strongest is because he is. Sorry kid, but you don't know more about FFVII than Kitase and SE.
12-05-2006, 10:08 AM
Forsaken Lover

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

And when SE say that he is the most powerfull being in FFVII universe, that means that he is more powerfull than beings like Omega Weiss and Omega Weapon itself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

"Producer Kitase decided that they couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth in the world of FFVII."-Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Just thought I’d clear that up. Not being. Character. Omega Weapon is a thing. Not a character.

Anyway, I’m gonna make my final note now. I might reply after this out of need but this is what really needs to be said. There is difference best and favorite. Favorite is completely subjective, based only on your pure opinion and yours alone. However, when you start saying something is the “best” it is no longer just your pure opinion. It is a statement decarling it to be superior to all other things in most if not all categories. This is not just pure opinion. It is debated opinion which requires facts and reasoning to back it up. Sephiroth may indeed be your “favorite” villain but saying he is the “best” means you have to prove his superiority somehow. Character, appearance, dialogue, impact, etc.

I feel Kuja is a better villain than Sephiroth and I’ve shown why many times with facts from the game to support everything I say. If a topic came up where it was just “Who’s Your Favorite” you wouldn’t need that sort of thing because it’s just your opinion.
12-05-2006, 10:17 AM
NeoCracker

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

and another point I want to make is how can Kuja possibly be the best bad guy if I remember right he gives up and turns good in the end doesn’t he?

No, no he doesn't.
12-05-2006, 11:49 AM
Forsaken Lover

Quote:

and another point I want to make is how can Kuja possibly be the best bad guy if I remember right he gives up and turns good in the end doesn’t he?

Not so much going good as he regretted what he did. When you lie broken and on the brink of death, you rethink a lot of things in your life. it's very natural and not to have regrets is more a mark of stupidity than anything.
12-05-2006, 04:30 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Just thought I’d clear that up. Not being. Character. Omega Weapon is a thing. Not a character.

A thing can be a character. A living being with a will(objective) that "fight" against you(this is OW), can be considered a character. And even if OW isn't one, that doesn't mater, because Omega Weiss was using the power of it, and he is a character.

Quote:

Anyway, I’m gonna make my final note now. I might reply after this out of need but this is what really needs to be said. There is difference best and favorite. Favorite is completely subjective, based only on your pure opinion and yours alone. However, when you start saying something is the “best” it is no longer just your pure opinion. It is a statement decarling it to be superior to all other things in most if not all categories. This is not just pure opinion. It is debated opinion which requires facts and reasoning to back it up. Sephiroth may indeed be your “favorite” villain but saying he is the “best” means you have to prove his superiority somehow. Character, appearance, dialogue, impact, etc.

I feel Kuja is a better villain than Sephiroth and I’ve shown why many times with facts from the game to support everything I say. If a topic came up where it was just “Who’s Your Favorite” you wouldn’t need that sort of thing because it’s just your opinion.

"Best" is very subjective too. You can think that a character is better than the other, and give proves about it, but another guy can give proves that his character is better than yours. In the end, this is all about opinions.
And i never said that Sephiroth was the better villain. If you read my other posts, you will see that i'm ONLY talking about his powers. I know that Sephiroth's motives aren't good, and i know that he don't have any personality at all. BUT his clothes are cool, his music(and all the different versions of it) are cool, he is the most badass villain in FF series, and he is very powerful(he is behind Kefka and Kuja, but not by miles). But this is only my opinion though.
And then, we enter in another topic. Opinion. Something that you and Ryu have to understand, is that your opinion is not a fact. You have good motives to think that Kuja is better, but the others have good motives to think that the other villains are better. This is only your opinion. Not a fact.
12-05-2006, 06:14 PM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

I think that’s a good thing about sephiroth he doesn’t really have any big magic powers apart from at the end, sure he has got normal magic like fira spells, lightning and other ones but he is usually strong enough with his sword I think another great thing about him is he doesn’t really use anyone he doesn’t really give orders theirs a lots of things he could of done better sure I mean all the villains in this series should of done better they all get defeated in the end! but in terms of looks and his speech he’s cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

and another point I want to make is how can Kuja possibly be the best bad guy if I remember right he gives up and turns good in the end doesn’t he?

He doesn't give orders because he's doing everything solely on his own. But then again he did try to control Cloud like 9 MILLION TIMES in the game. But I know what you mean. :razz:
And Jeez, not to be mean or anything, But there's an edit button in the corner. It's alot easier than double posting. :)
12-05-2006, 11:46 PM
chrisfffan

edit

for some reason that edit button doesnt work for me sorry to be a pain but i really wantead to add that point about Kuja.
12-06-2006, 05:07 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well, glad we can all agree after this very lenghty and intriguing topic that Sephiroth is far from the best, and is behind Kuja and Kefka in some categories.

Fixed for you.

So, we're 4Chan now, eh? Better go prepare for the invasion of the /b/tards.

Evidence would be appreciated. Non-vague, non-made up evidence, this time, please. Kitase saying Sephiroth is the strongest character in FF7 (in some undefined category) does not grant him superpowers we've never seen him use. Substantiate your arguments, please. Non sequitors will not be tolerated.

Oh yes- Concession accepted on what you did not address. If you wish to resume arguing these claims, please begin from square one.

Wrong! If Kitase say that Sephiroth is the strongest is because he is. Sorry kid, but you don't know more about FFVII than Kitase and SE.

Your dodge impresses no one. No one is doubting that Sephiroth is "the strongest". What is now in question is what category he is strongest in, and why him being "strongest" means he can use the abilities you claim he can use that he's never even been hinted at having.
12-06-2006, 12:29 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Your dodge impresses no one. No one is doubting that Sephiroth is "the strongest". What is now in question is what category he is strongest in, and why him being "strongest" means he can use the abilities you claim he can use that he's never even been hinted at having.

Don't exist a "category". "Strongest" means that he is stronger than anyone else, simple as that. What Kitase said was clear like water.
Now, about the "abilities that i claim he can use that he's never even been hinted at having". I said that he can corrupt the Lifestream, and the name of this is Geostigma. This is in the movie, just watch it.
I said too, that he can use the corrupted Lifestream to directly corrupt the pure one. You said that this isn't stated in the RF. Little Ryu, you know what is the main reason of the RF existence? To explain to us, things that weren't showed or weren't explained in the movie. So, why the hell the RF would explain something, that is already explained in the movie?!

Sephiroth: "The soul of the dead who carried the Geostigma...
That, and with the Lifestream, controls the flow of the planet.
Eventually it'll corrupt it...
What i really want, Cloud...
Is to travel the Darkness of cosmos using this planet as my vessel.
As Mother did before me...
One day we will discover a new world.
We will create the future on that ground."

After this, he summon the corrupted one to cover the sky, and with a wave of his hand(one second before attacking Cloud) "order" the corrupted one, to descend(in form of "tentacles") to destroy everything(because is very obvious that, to transform the planet in a vessel, he have to destroy all life in it first).

All of this is very clear. Everyone that i know(that readed the UOG, RF, etc.) agree with me. You are the only one that disagree.

But even if you choosed to ignore the official words of SE, quotes of the movie, logic and common sense, you still can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest. Because he is, and this is not a topic of discussion anymore.
12-06-2006, 01:22 PM
Forsaken Lover

Who really cares if he's the strongest? That quote only applies to FFVII. If Square ever says he's the strongest villain in all Final Fantasy, then it's time to blow their HQ up. Because he's not. Kuja and Kefka smoke him. As does Neo Ex-Death and Cloud of Darkness and most of the other villains.

Seriously. He's oen weak god.
12-06-2006, 04:06 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Don't exist a "category". "Strongest" means that he is stronger than anyone else, simple as that. What Kitase said was clear like water.

And yet, it isn't, because "Strongest" doesn't prove your other claims.

Quote:

Now, about the "abilities that i claim he can use that he's never even been hinted at having". I said that he can corrupt the Lifestream, and the name of this is Geostigma. This is in the movie, just watch it.
I said too, that he can use the corrupted Lifestream to directly corrupt the pure one. You said that this isn't stated in the RF. Little Ryu, you know what is the main reason of the RF existence? To explain to us, things that weren't showed or weren't explained in the movie. So, why the hell the RF would explain something, that is already explained in the movie?!

Child, I have been incredibly patient with you. Stop testing me before I lose my patience. Yes, Sephiroth is corrupting the lifestream. He is NOT, as you claimed prevously, using the tainted stream to direct corrupt the untainted. There is also no reason to believe the boy can restrict the use of magic by other people, as you also tried to claim he could.

Quote:

Sephiroth: "The soul of the dead who carried the Geostigma...
That, and with the Lifestream, controls the flow of the planet.
Eventually it'll corrupt it...

KEY WORD: Eventually. Do you know what eventually means? Over a significant period of time.

Quote:

What i really want, Cloud...
Is to travel the Darkness of cosmos using this planet as my vessel.
As Mother did before me...
One day we will discover a new world.
We will create the future on that ground."

After this, he summon the corrupted one to cover the sky, and with a wave of his hand(one second before attacking Cloud) "order" the corrupted one, to descend(in form of "tentacles") to destroy everything(because is very obvious that, to transform the planet in a vessel, he have to destroy all life in it first).

Or he's trying to spread more Jenova Cells via the clouds. Or he just thinks they make a nice atmosphere. Can you please show evidence that this IS the lifestream? Especially since all official sources just refer to them as dark clouds? And since they wind up not doing a gorram thing to the ground in any of the incedental shots we do get to see? Or evidence that shows he has such control over the lifestream, when he doesn't even have enough control to create an unfragmented Shinentai?

Quote:

All of this is very clear. Everyone that i know(that readed the UOG, RF, etc.) agree with me. You are the only one that disagree.

Just because something is 'clear' does not make it so. It is 'clear' to a child that it is the sun that moves around, not the earth, when the reality is the opposite. If you wish to convince people of your claims, then actually provide evidence.
And please, in the future, avoid such blanket statements that "everyone" agrees with you. This very thread- yes, other than me- is proof of the disagreement.

Quote:

But even if you choosed to ignore the official words of SE, quotes of the movie, logic and common sense, you still can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest. Because he is, and this is not a topic of discussion anymore.

No, this isn't about Sephiroth's relative strength compared to other FF7 characters anymore. This is about YOU providing some gorram evidence of the :skull::skull::skull::skull: you've been spouting.
Though where you're applying logic and common sense escapes me. I see lots of wild claims and conclusion jumping though.
12-06-2006, 04:07 PM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Who really cares if he's the strongest? That quote only applies to FFVII. If Square ever says he's the strongest villain in all Final Fantasy, then it's time to blow their HQ up. Because he's not. Kuja and Kefka smoke him. As does Neo Ex-Death and Cloud of Darkness and most of the other villains.

Seriously. He's oen weak god.

I agree with what you just said.

Here's how I see Squeenix's logic. Sephiroth is the 'most liked' villain because he's in FFVII, FFVII has become Squeenix's new money play thing. So they say he's the strongest.

I draw a picture of a chicken, I say "This is the best chicken drawing ever" does that make it the best chicken drawing ever? No, because Best is an opinion word and just because I say it's the best doesn't mean it is the best chicken drawing ever, regardless if I created it or not.
12-06-2006, 07:28 PM
chrisfffan

a walk in the park

Originally posted by corncracker

No, no he doesn't.

are u taking the Mickey? if I remember right after defeating him at the end hes saved by Zidane, okay so they are sought of brothers but thats not the point! and as for the fight it was so easy! compared with Sephiroth it was a walk in the park.
12-06-2006, 07:54 PM
NeoCracker

Saving one person doesn't make you a good guy. If Hitler stopped a little girl from dying I still think peoples opinions of him wouldn't change.
12-06-2006, 08:33 PM
The Crystal

Ryu, what i really wanted to prove is that he is the strongest in FVII. This is already proved. And i never said that he could restrict magic, i only said that he have controll over it.
Something that you don't understand Ryu is "logic" and "common sense". What you are sugesting is that after Sephiroth talked about destroying the world with corrupted Lifestream... He summoned normal dark clouds that don't have anything to do with nothing, just because! And these normal dark clouds begun to descend in direction of earth just because! Come on dude, this don't make any sense and you know it.
I cannot prove that they are corrupted Lifestream, but they aren't NORMAL dark clouds(because clouds don't descend to earth like "tentacles"). So, what they are? The most LOGICAL explanation, is that it is the same corrupted Lifestream that Sephiroth was talking about, seconds before this happened. Like i said before, exist some things that are so obvious, that we don't need prove. SE will not explain all the details of everything, because they know that we are intelligent beings that can think for ourselfes. Just because RF don't say it, doesn't mean that is wrong, even because you have to admit that my explanation about the corrupted Lifestream, have much more sense than your explanation about "normal dark clouds that appeared out of nowhere, for any reason at all".
Is about interpretation? Yes it is. But some times, what you are watching is something so simple to understand, that you don't need to be a genius, or you don't need any prove, to understand what is happening. Sephiroth explained everything that would happen in that scene.

An example of another scene that is easy to understand. When Tifa is talking with Cloud(before he go to the Sleeping Forest), and she is sad and almost crying. Why she was that way? Because she was sad that Cloud would "run away" and be a loner again. But she never litterally explained why she was sad, so, we can give many other interpretations. They are valid, but the most LOGICAL one, is that she was sad because of Cloud's attitude.

We are not retardeds. We can think for ourselfes, and we don't need proves to explain EVERYTHING.
Okay i admit, what you said about the dark clouds can be true, but you have to admit that what i said make MUCH more sense.

And like i said, if you don't agree with me, then you can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest in FFVII. Because he is, and this is what i was trying to prove(and is already proved).

And to be frank, i'm losing my patience with you. But i'm not in this forum to begin fights, or insults or etc. so, before this thread become "ugly", what do you think if we just stop? Don't get me wrong, but i'm a little tired of arguing about this topic with you.
12-06-2006, 10:57 PM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

"logic" and "common sense".

With logic and common sense, we could say the sun and the moon are the same size and Earth is flat. We can't always rely on it.

I just wanted to point that out is all. Other than that, yes, what you said was right and I agree.
12-08-2006, 03:14 AM
IsntFFIXGrand

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

That's your opinion. In my opinion, Sephiroth is the one of the worst FF villains. He's, well, a mamas boy. I personally think Kuja is the best villain.

Kuja wasn't a villain. If you played FFIX to the end, you'll see that Kuja sacrificed himself to save your party after defeating Necron.

http://www.ff-fan.com/chartest/banners/kuja.jpg
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
________________________________________
Being forgotten is worse than dying.
12-08-2006, 03:18 AM
IsntFFIXGrand

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Don't exist a "category". "Strongest" means that he is stronger than anyone else, simple as that. What Kitase said was clear like water.

And yet, it isn't, because "Strongest" doesn't prove your other claims.

Quote:

Now, about the "abilities that i claim he can use that he's never even been hinted at having". I said that he can corrupt the Lifestream, and the name of this is Geostigma. This is in the movie, just watch it.
I said too, that he can use the corrupted Lifestream to directly corrupt the pure one. You said that this isn't stated in the RF. Little Ryu, you know what is the main reason of the RF existence? To explain to us, things that weren't showed or weren't explained in the movie. So, why the hell the RF would explain something, that is already explained in the movie?!

Child, I have been incredibly patient with you. Stop testing me before I lose my patience. Yes, Sephiroth is corrupting the lifestream. He is NOT, as you claimed prevously, using the tainted stream to direct corrupt the untainted. There is also no reason to believe the boy can restrict the use of magic by other people, as you also tried to claim he could.

Quote:

Sephiroth: "The soul of the dead who carried the Geostigma...
That, and with the Lifestream, controls the flow of the planet.
Eventually it'll corrupt it...

KEY WORD: Eventually. Do you know what eventually means? Over a significant period of time.

Quote:

What i really want, Cloud...
Is to travel the Darkness of cosmos using this planet as my vessel.
As Mother did before me...
One day we will discover a new world.
We will create the future on that ground."

After this, he summon the corrupted one to cover the sky, and with a wave of his hand(one second before attacking Cloud) "order" the corrupted one, to descend(in form of "tentacles") to destroy everything(because is very obvious that, to transform the planet in a vessel, he have to destroy all life in it first).

Or he's trying to spread more Jenova Cells via the clouds. Or he just thinks they make a nice atmosphere. Can you please show evidence that this IS the lifestream? Especially since all official sources just refer to them as dark clouds? And since they wind up not doing a gorram thing to the ground in any of the incedental shots we do get to see? Or evidence that shows he has such control over the lifestream, when he doesn't even have enough control to create an unfragmented Shinentai?

Quote:

All of this is very clear. Everyone that i know(that readed the UOG, RF, etc.) agree with me. You are the only one that disagree.

Just because something is 'clear' does not make it so. It is 'clear' to a child that it is the sun that moves around, not the earth, when the reality is the opposite. If you wish to convince people of your claims, then actually provide evidence.
And please, in the future, avoid such blanket statements that "everyone" agrees with you. This very thread- yes, other than me- is proof of the disagreement.

Quote:

But even if you choosed to ignore the official words of SE, quotes of the movie, logic and common sense, you still can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest. Because he is, and this is not a topic of discussion anymore.

No, this isn't about Sephiroth's relative strength compared to other FF7 characters anymore. This is about YOU providing some gorram evidence of the :skull::skull::skull::skull: you've been spouting.
Though where you're applying logic and common sense escapes me. I see lots of wild claims and conclusion jumping though.

Well said. Well said.

http://www.ff-fan.com/chartest/banners/kuja.jpg
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
________________________________________
Being forgotten is worse than dying.
12-08-2006, 03:22 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by IsntFFIXGrand

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

That's your opinion. In my opinion, Sephiroth is the one of the worst FF villains. He's, well, a mamas boy. I personally think Kuja is the best villain.

Kuja wasn't a villain. If you played FFIX to the end, you'll see that Kuja sacrificed himself to save your party after defeating Necron.

http://www.ff-fan.com/chartest/banners/kuja.jpg
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy
________________________________________
Being forgotten is worse than dying.

I think this post will clear that idea right up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by corncracker

Saving one person doesn't make you a good guy. If Hitler stopped a little girl from dying I still think peoples opinions of him wouldn't change.
12-08-2006, 06:55 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Ryu, what i really wanted to prove is that he is the strongest in FVII. This is already proved. And i never said that he could restrict magic, i only said that he have controll over it.

So, your entire argument based around Sephiroth not allowing people to use lifestream based magic never existed, then?
Edit: Y'know, I recall asking for some context for the quote some time ago. You've never provided. Please, point me to where I can examine the quote on my own, so I can determine whether or not Kitase is saying what you think he is saying.

Quote:

Something that you don't understand Ryu is "logic" and "common sense". What you are sugesting is that after Sephiroth talked about destroying the world with corrupted Lifestream... He summoned normal dark clouds that don't have anything to do with nothing, just because!

Or perhaps he summoned these dark clouds as a simple yet effective demonstration of his power, to intimidate his foe, and to reduce his visibility.

Quote:

And these normal dark clouds begun to descend in direction of earth just because! Come on dude, this don't make any sense and you know it.

You seem to have the delusion that I am saying these clouds are not under Sephiroth's control. That is not what I am saying.

Quote:

I cannot prove that they are corrupted Lifestream, but they aren't NORMAL dark clouds(because clouds don't descend to earth like "tentacles"). So, what they are? The most LOGICAL explanation, is that it is the same corrupted Lifestream that Sephiroth was talking about, seconds before this happened. Like i said before, exist some things that are so obvious, that we don't need prove. SE will not explain all the details of everything, because they know that we are intelligent beings that can think for ourselfes. Just because RF don't say it, doesn't mean that is wrong, even because you have to admit that my explanation about the corrupted Lifestream, have much more sense than your explanation about "normal dark clouds that appeared out of nowhere, for any reason at all".

That is not my explanation, it has never been my explanation, please do not really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. me.
And no, your explanation does not make much sense. Since it fails to A: present sufficient evidence for it to be credible, and B: Fails to explain the utter lack of damage the supposed lifestream causes the surroundings and persons it permeates during the fight.

Quote:

Is about interpretation? Yes it is. But some times, what you are watching is something so simple to understand, that you don't need to be a genius, or you don't need any prove, to understand what is happening. Sephiroth explained everything that would happen in that scene.

Except in that scene, he was discussing an eventuality, by his own words.
And yes, you do need 'prove', or proof, as we in the real world know it by. When one seeks to assert ANYTHING, proof is required. Observe, collate, theorized, double check, repeat.

Quote:

An example of another scene that is easy to understand. When Tifa is talking with Cloud(before he go to the Sleeping Forest), and she is sad and almost crying. Why she was that way? Because she was sad that Cloud would "run away" and be a loner again. But she never litterally explained why she was sad, so, we can give many other interpretations. They are valid, but the most LOGICAL one, is that she was sad because of Cloud's attitude.

Well, using parsimony and body language to infer a motive is in a completely different echelon than "Attacked the world with corrupted lifestream". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You aren't providing evidence, extraordinary or otherwise.

Quote:

We are not retardeds. We can think for ourselfes, and we don't need proves to explain EVERYTHING.
Okay i admit, what you said about the dark clouds can be true, but you have to admit that what i said make MUCH more sense.

No. It does not. Because these clouds- referred to only as clouds in the official materials (RF, plot summary, p083 "Sephiroth appears at 6:00 in the evening. His appearance causes dark clouds to cover the area") look and act nothing like any other form of life energy we have ever seen, because these clouds do not deal any damage to anything, which we would expect it to do given that lifeflares have been causing destruction, and because, and here's the fun part, Cloud and Sephiroth are actually jumping through the haze of these clouds throughout their fight, with nary a reaction.
And yes, it strikes me that referring to 'the tainted lifestream' as dark clouds in the plot section is akin to referring to a Full blown 200MT Nuke as nite light.

Quote:

And like i said, if you don't agree with me, then you can create your own explanation of why Sephiroth is the strongest in FFVII. Because he is, and this is what i was trying to prove(and is already proved).

Sure he's the strongest. Strongest how has always been the question. An example of what I mean is Nomura is on record as stating that Cloud is one of the weakest final fantasy characters of all time. Doesn't make much sense? It's because "strong" and "weak" do not always mean "teh awesome power", and often are used to discuss other traits, such as emotional strength, force of will, etc.

Quote:

And to be frank, i'm losing my patience with you. But i'm not in this forum to begin fights, or insults or etc. so, before this thread become "ugly", what do you think if we just stop? Don't get me wrong, but i'm a little tired of arguing about this topic with you.

The only way this thread will become ugly is if you make it ugly. And you're trying my patience at least as much as I try yours, but I at least proffer evidence for my argument. You've got one statement and a lot of non sequitors.
12-08-2006, 08:20 PM
The Crystal

Like i said before, i'm losing my patience with you Ryu, so, if you don't agree with what i said(about the corrupted Lifestream), i just give up.
I will just talk about what really is important, that is Sephiroth's strenght.

Quote:

BTW, you say the quote that 'proves' this is from Reunion files, yet I can't seem to locate it in there. Care to point me to a page number?

Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Quote:

Sure he's the strongest. Strongest how has always been the question. An example of what I mean is Nomura is on record as stating that Cloud is one of the weakest final fantasy characters of all time. Doesn't make much sense?

No it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that is not the truth. If SE, one day, say that Cloud is the more weak, is because he is. If SE say that when Sephiroth was a baby, he could destroy a galaxy with just a fart, is because he could. They are the creators of the game, and anything that they say about the "universe" that they created, is the truth. Even if it doesn't make sense.

Quote:

It's because "strong" and "weak" do not always mean "teh awesome power", and often are used to discuss other traits, such as emotional strength, force of will, etc.

This isn't greate?! Everytime that i don't agree with something that SE say, i can distort their words to my own interpratation! This is so cool!
Unfortunately, this is not the way that things work. If we don't know what SE wanted to say, we have to interpret it in the litterall meaning, because this is the only thing that we have.
If Kitase didn't want to say, that SE couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth, then he wouldn't have used the word "stronger", he would have used another word.
If you love evidence so much, can you prove the true meaning of Kitase's words?
12-08-2006, 08:30 PM
The Crystal

Like i said before, i'm losing my patience with you Ryu, so, if you don't agree with what i said(about the corrupted Lifestream), i just give up.
I will just talk about what really is important, that is Sephiroth's strenght.

Quote:

BTW, you say the quote that 'proves' this is from Reunion files, yet I can't seem to locate it in there. Care to point me to a page number?

Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Quote:

Sure he's the strongest. Strongest how has always been the question. An example of what I mean is Nomura is on record as stating that Cloud is one of the weakest final fantasy characters of all time. Doesn't make much sense?

No it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that is not the truth. If SE, one day, say that Cloud is the more weak, is because he is. If SE say that when Sephiroth was a baby, he could destroy a galaxy with just a fart, is because he can. They are the creators of the game, and anything that they say about the "universe" that they created, is the truth. Even if it doesn't make sense.

Quote:

It's because "strong" and "weak" do not always mean "teh awesome power", and often are used to discuss other traits, such as emotional strength, force of will, etc.

This isn't greate?! Everytime that i don't agree with something that SE say, i can distort their words to my own interpratation! This is so cool!
Unfortunately, this is not the way that things work. If we don't know what SE wanted to say, we have to interpret it in the litterall meaning, because this is the only thing that we have.
If Kitase didn't want to say, that SE couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth, then he wouldn't have used the word "stronger", he would have used another word.
If you love evidence so much, can you prove the true meaning of Kitase's words?
12-08-2006, 09:56 PM
YTDN

This is a funny argument to watch. You two have degraded to insulting each others debating skills.

Personally though, If we're gonna argue this in regarding the FF7 universe only, the only way to do it is to ignore all evidence that makes no sense, even if SE said it.

Sorry if the above statement made no sense. I'm sleepy at the moment, so I can't put my thoughts into words.
12-08-2006, 11:21 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Like i said before, i'm losing my patience with you Ryu, so, if you don't agree with what i said(about the corrupted Lifestream), i just give up.
I will just talk about what really is important, that is Sephiroth's strenght.

Concession accepted. Now, would you like to know why I disagree? It's because you have given absolutely no reason for me to believe that the clouds are in fact the tainted stream, or that he can do what you have claimed he can do with it.

Quote:

Found in the AC director's commentary from the JP DVD

Good to know. Now can you provide me the context, like I asked in my edit above?

Quote:

No it doesn't, but that doesn't mean that is not the truth. If SE, one day, say that Cloud is the more weak, is because he is. If SE say that when Sephiroth was a baby, he could destroy a galaxy with just a fart, is because he can. They are the creators of the game, and anything that they say about the "universe" that they created, is the truth. Even if it doesn't make sense.

Hi there. The sentence you decided to try and respond to was not, in fact, the end of a point, but instead a rhetorical question leading into the last sentence. Try waiting until the end of a point- or at least make sure that you do respond to the point in total if you do decide to try and rebut lesser points before the end- to respond. It helps you avoid really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning me, which is what you are currently doing.

Quote:

This isn't greate?! Everytime that i don't agree with something that SE say, i can distort their words to my own interpratation! This is so cool!
Unfortunately, this is not the way that things work. If we don't know what SE wanted to say, we have to interpret it in the litterall meaning, because this is the only thing that we have.
If Kitase didn't want to say, that SE couldn’t make any other character stronger than Sephiroth, then he wouldn't have used the word "stronger", he would have used another word.
If you love evidence so much, can you prove the true meaning of Kitase's words?

Wow, this is such a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. we're in Smegging OZ. The point, child, if you had bothered to take my argument as it was rather than as you tried to make it out to be, was that "strong" and "weak" are quite often used to refer to aspects of a person, such as a weak or strong will, instead of talking about the person's battle prowess. The issue is complicated further by this being a translation from Japanese, and literal translations are actually pretty damn rare from Japanese to English. If I could listen to what he said, in context, I could actually determine what Kitase literally said, which is why I've been asking for you to point me to where your source for it was. Unless, of course, you've never managed to lay hands on this source, like you hadn't with the reunion files.
As for 'taking them literally', you do realize that literalism does not help your cause, si? But then again, we don't have to take them literally. It is, in fact, ill advised. What we should do instead is take them parsimoniously, and if there is a vague statement, try and go with the least outrageous interpretation of their words.
As for your last little bit, would you care to do the same? You are the one saying that Kitase means, in effect, "This means Sephiroth is the most powerful being in the FF7 continuity, ever, and he can never be dethroned". I'm saying "This statement is too vague to conclude that." I'm damn close to the negative case, which does not suffer the burden of proof. What little burden I have should be fulfilled in giving other examples of the creators using the terms in methods other than the one you insist it applies to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YTDN

This is a funny argument to watch. You two have degraded to insulting each others debating skills.

Well, the methodology used to reach a conclusion IS an important part of determining a conclusion's validity. As a rationalist, I'm pretty severe on people who don't employ the scientific method, or try and strongly assert their claim with no or insufficient evidence. Though I've hardly resorted to "just" insulting him. I think I can insult and rebut in the same fell swoop. I do agree that this argument is amusing. It's part of why I'm still involved in it.

Quote:

Personally though, If we're gonna argue this in regarding the FF7 universe only, the only way to do it is to ignore all evidence that makes no sense, even if SE said it.

In short- try and find the outlier data and weigh it accordingly. Makes sense.

Quote:

Sorry if the above statement made no sense. I'm sleepy at the moment, so I can't put my thoughts into words.

Makes pretty good sense, actually. Though I'd like to see the expanded and fully concious version of this post at another date.
12-09-2006, 03:52 PM
The Crystal

I'm sorry Ryu, but i will stop now. I'm really tired of arguing with you about this. Is useless. You say that you want evidences, but this is not truth. What you want are evidences that support your opinion. And when someone present an evidence that is against it, you try to distort it with your own opinion, or you just ignore it. Presenting evidence to you is useless.
12-09-2006, 10:58 PM
Ryushikaze

Pot, Kettle, Black, Crystal.

Concession accepted.
12-10-2006, 03:48 PM
Carl the Llama

Ryushikaze, They dont accept what your are saying and are not conceeding to you, they in truth cannot be bothered to argue with you anymore, tell me: where does it say that the conceed to what you are saying? do they specificly say "yes Ryushikaze I conceed your point you were right" I mean from where im sitting it looks like your ASSUMEING that they are conceeding when all through you constantly ask for proof. Additionally calling someone who is but 2 years younger then you Child seem's to me like your stamping your foot. oh and for the record I am 23 and therefore not a child.
12-10-2006, 04:29 PM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

I'm sorry Ryu, but i will stop now. I'm really tired of arguing with you about this. Is useless. You say that you want evidences, but this is not truth. What you want are evidences that support your opinion. And when someone present an evidence that is against it, you try to distort it with your own opinion, or you just ignore it. Presenting evidence to you is useless.

I just don't think he's accepting all evidence that is based outside of gameplay or what we see in the movie or things implied in the movie. Which I don't really either, it's just easier to not argue with that and talk about things off the gameplay since that's what all the other games are. :)
12-10-2006, 11:59 PM
Forsaken Lover

Please. Let's stay on-topic.

To answer the topic: no, he isn't. Kuja and Kefka are much, much better.
12-11-2006, 12:57 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Ryushikaze, They dont accept what your are saying and are not conceeding to you, they in truth cannot be bothered to argue with you anymore, tell me: where does it say that the conceed to what you are saying? do they specificly say "yes Ryushikaze I conceed your point you were right" I mean from where im sitting it looks like your ASSUMEING that they are conceeding when all through you constantly ask for proof. Additionally calling someone who is but 2 years younger then you Child seem's to me like your stamping your foot. oh and for the record I am 23 and therefore not a child.

Well, a lot of it has to do with the fact that claims have little to no inherent validity without evidence, and the more outrageous a claim is, the more or better evidence it requires to gain validity, so if he cannot provide, then he has by default conceded his claim, whether or not he agrees with me or not.
Though if you're getting on my case for calling Crystal child, why not his for calling me kid?
12-11-2006, 05:39 AM
MasterX

Well, Sephiroth is one of those characters who has looks, the power to destroy anything he wants AND he can last more than 5 KotRs. (I mean BOTH of them; Bazziro + Safer) He is basically a God among men who only plans on ruinning the life of a psychotic spikey-haired bastard. He even knows where to kick Cloud what with the whole Aeris-killing thing.

In short, yes, he IS FF's greatest villian.
12-11-2006, 12:54 PM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterX

Well, Sephiroth is one of those characters who has looks, the power to destroy anything he wants AND he can last more than 5 KotRs. (I mean BOTH of them; Bazziro + Safer) He is basically a God among men who only plans on ruinning the life of a psychotic spikey-haired bastard. He even knows where to kick Cloud what with the whole Aeris-killing thing.

In short, yes, he IS FF\'s greatest villian.

Emphasis on looks, because that is why he is so overrated.(Bizzaro is more Jenova than Sephiroth.)KoTRs doesn\'t count. Attacks and animations in games don\'t count because Sephy can\'t really blow up the sun; it was just something Square put in to make him look cool. And he needed the Black Materia to summon Meteor.He was NOT a god. In fact, that was what he tried to do in FFVII but was defeated by the FFVII party. He did manage to control about 1/2 of Lifestream, but not all. Villains like Kefka controlled all the magic in the world and Kuja actually succeeded in blowing up a planet.Like it\'s said before, Sephy is a good villain, but nowhere near that of Kefka and Kuja.
12-11-2006, 01:19 PM
swatzlewatt

whos kefka and kuja:confused: ive heard of sephiroth and he looks way cooler, who cares about magic power, yes its strong and all but in a villian or evil person you think of power and strenght, and sephiroth has that look, you cant count on power in the game as thats the developers idea
12-11-2006, 02:07 PM
NeoCracker

Kefka is the main Villian of FF VI, Kuja of FF IX
12-11-2006, 02:22 PM
Carl the Llama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Though if you're getting on my case for calling Crystal child, why not his for calling me kid?

well probly because I didnt read it, and coupled with the fact this isnt the only person you have called Child.
12-11-2006, 03:23 PM
Rocket Edge

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Emphasis on looks, because that is why he is so overrated.

Hell, that's a big part of what makes a good villian. Having an original and striking character image like Sephiroth did made him what he is today.
12-12-2006, 12:16 AM
The Crystal

Why some people think that Kuja can blow up a planet? We don't have any prove that he can, and we don't have anyone of SE saying that he can.
12-12-2006, 12:22 AM
The Unknown Guru

I think Kefka was a better villain. Seph was a decent character, though.

Oh yeah, and flaming based on your opinion is pointless and will never solve anything.
12-12-2006, 01:58 AM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traffic

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Emphasis on looks, because that is why he is so overrated.

Hell, that's a big part of what makes a good villian. Having an original and striking character image like Sephiroth did made him what he is today.

No, looks are a big part of why people like villains more. I know Sephy is a great villain, but it's just that many people only or mainly like him because he looks cool. Looks are what made Sephy popular, but it doesn't make him a great villain. It's like saying a person is a great boyfriend/girlfriend because he/she looks good (though looks are what people might go for).
12-12-2006, 02:02 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traffic

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Emphasis on looks, because that is why he is so overrated.

Hell, that's a big part of what makes a good villian. Having an original and striking character image like Sephiroth did made him what he is today.

Original? They gave him a black coat, long silver hair, and a big ass sword. That's not very original.
12-12-2006, 06:28 AM
MasterX

Okay, granted. Bizarro + Safer were more Jenova-esqe kinda bosses, but I forgot to mention why I truely admire Sephiroth. He was invinsible. You have to admit, even in later levels, Cloud could not do to the damned Midgar Zolom what Sephy did in that one run through the plains that first time. He is godlike by normal standards, because (assumingly) he impaled that snake with ease while Cloud being half-dead after any brawl with it. (Unless you kill it BEFORE it uses Beta) He is legendary for his AVERAGE strength, not for his higher forms. There is little proof that Kefka and Kuja hold the same average power Sephiroth holds. (Kefka nearly destroys the planet, but he uses the God Statues to do so.) I'm not saying those guys ain't strong. I'm only saying the are nothing compared to Sephy in terms of strength. Also, look at the past scenario with Sephiroth. He destroyed that dragon in TWO hits. Not even Kuja could do that. Two of Kuja's regular attacks would barely kill off Vivi. If I'm wrong, point out flaws, please. I'm open to debates.
12-12-2006, 07:42 AM
chrisfffan

main characters

this was posted by corncracker

Kefka is the main Villian of FF VI, Kuja of FF IX

so your saying sephiroth isnt the main villian in FF7?
12-12-2006, 08:28 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterX

Okay, granted. Bizarro + Safer were more Jenova-esqe kinda bosses, but I forgot to mention why I truely admire Sephiroth. He was invinsible. You have to admit, even in later levels, Cloud could not do to the damned Midgar Zolom what Sephy did in that one run through the plains that first time. He is godlike by normal standards, because (assumingly) he impaled that snake with ease while Cloud being half-dead after any brawl with it. (Unless you kill it BEFORE it uses Beta) He is legendary for his AVERAGE strength, not for his higher forms. There is little proof that Kefka and Kuja hold the same average power Sephiroth holds. (Kefka nearly destroys the planet, but he uses the God Statues to do so.) I'm not saying those guys ain't strong. I'm only saying the are nothing compared to Sephy in terms of strength. Also, look at the past scenario with Sephiroth. He destroyed that dragon in TWO hits. Not even Kuja could do that. Two of Kuja's regular attacks would barely kill off Vivi. If I'm wrong, point out flaws, please. I'm open to debates.

Kuja is holding back in most fights, including the last, until you piss him off and he outright kills you. Then, later, as his life is running out, he decides to bring you back, then teleports himself, the entire party, and the airship out of the physical manifestation of the collective unconcious and to a relatively safe place.
He also succesfully planetbusts Terra (Well, BDZ's it at least) and does so casually once he gains the power of trance. He then uses this same power to tear a persisting hole into the collective unconcious as well as shatter the source of all existence (Ironically, it would seem, thus beginning existence unintentionally).
12-12-2006, 08:56 AM
MasterX

Awww, man. I completely forgot about Kuja's complete elimination of Terra. You'll have to excuse me, I haven't touched FFIX in a while. Technically, this should be in a FFIX forum, but I've got time on my hands.

True, true, Kuja destroys that planet like no other. Plus, know that I think about it...Kuja is quite powerful, but I'm not taking higher forms into account, which means I'm not including Trance as well. What can Kuja do to Terra without Trance. I'm not saying he's not powerful, but his average power should be taken into questioning. His dragon-riding abilities are demonstrated during the game, but his non-trance magic isn't displayed. If so, remind me.
12-12-2006, 03:56 PM
YTDN

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterX

True, true, Kuja destroys that planet like no other. Plus, know that I think about it...Kuja is quite powerful, but I'm not taking higher forms into account, which means I'm not including Trance as well. What can Kuja do to Terra without Trance. I'm not saying he's not powerful, but his average power should be taken into questioning. His dragon-riding abilities are demonstrated during the game, but his non-trance magic isn't displayed. If so, remind me.

When Brahne decides to kill Kuja, he shows his power by coming out of Bahamut's attack (which successfully destroys the entirety of Brahne's fleet later) unscathed except for a cut on his head.

But really, Kuja isn't the type to fight face to face with someone. Instead he manipulates entire kingdoms into doing his dirty work for him. And he has power over the Mist, the Invincible, and the Black Mages.
12-12-2006, 08:26 PM
PuPu

MasterX, in Kefka's "average" form, befire he got the power of the statues, he was able to kill 8 espers at once during the scene where he burned down Thamasa.

Since Sephy's "average" form was before he got released from the Northern Crater, (Remember guys, the "real" Sephiroth is the one sealed in the Northern Crater) he was able to control Cloud and kill the Midgar Zolom easily, but it showed nothing beyond that.

Controlling a guy and killing a giant snake vs. killing 8 extremely powerful magical beasts.... yeah.
12-12-2006, 08:56 PM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

MasterX, in Kefka's "average" form, befire he got the power of the statues, he was able to kill 8 espers at once during the scene where he burned down Thamasa.

Since Sephy's "average" form was before he got released from the Northern Crater, (Remember guys, the "real" Sephiroth is the one sealed in the Northern Crater) he was able to control Cloud and kill the Midgar Zolom easily, but it showed nothing beyond that.

Controlling a guy and killing a giant snake vs. killing 8 extremely powerful magical beasts.... yeah.

Hey yeah I totally forgot about that. Good fact right there! :razz:
12-13-2006, 12:16 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

MasterX, in Kefka's "average" form, befire he got the power of the statues, he was able to kill 8 espers at once during the scene where he burned down Thamasa.

Since Sephy's "average" form was before he got released from the Northern Crater, (Remember guys, the "real" Sephiroth is the one sealed in the Northern Crater) he was able to control Cloud and kill the Midgar Zolom easily, but it showed nothing beyond that.

Controlling a guy and killing a giant snake vs. killing 8 extremely powerful magical beasts.... yeah.

You forgot to mention that he controlled many guys(black cape guys) killed everyone in Shinra building(executives, soldiers, robots, 3rd class SOLDIERs, etc), killed Aerith, he can become intangible(like a ghost), and can create illusions.

And didn't Kefka absorb the power of the Espers in "Esper Land"(or something like that), before he absorbed the power of the Godesses?
12-13-2006, 12:31 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

MasterX, in Kefka's "average" form, befire he got the power of the statues, he was able to kill 8 espers at once during the scene where he burned down Thamasa.

Since Sephy's "average" form was before he got released from the Northern Crater, (Remember guys, the "real" Sephiroth is the one sealed in the Northern Crater) he was able to control Cloud and kill the Midgar Zolom easily, but it showed nothing beyond that.

Controlling a guy and killing a giant snake vs. killing 8 extremely powerful magical beasts.... yeah.

You forgot to mention that he controlled many guys(black cape guys) killed everyone in Shinra building(executives, soldiers, robots, 3rd class SOLDIERs, etc), killed Aerith, he can become intangible(like a ghost), and can create illusions.

And didn't Kefka absorb the power of the Espers in "Esper Land"(or something like that), before he absorbed the power of the Godesses?

I thought Sephiroth could only control the other failed experiments (AKA black-caped Men) because he was in tune with Jenova.

And now I'm back. "Esper Land" Jesus Christ.. Thamasa was a normal little town. This is -BEFORE- the whole Goddess thing, He had no powers from the Goddess' at this point. He killed the espers on his 'weaker' power level.
12-13-2006, 01:26 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

And didn't Kefka absorb the power of the Espers in "Esper Land"(or something like that), before he absorbed the power of the Godesses?

That post made it clear you don't think/know much of FFVI. Kefka was infused with esper magic, but taking that away from him is like taking away Sephiroth's sword, materia, and followers.
12-13-2006, 01:39 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I thought Sephiroth could only control the other failed experiments (AKA black-caped Men) because he was in tune with Jenova.

And you are almost correct. The only thing that is wrong in your post, is that they aren't failed experiments. Hojo "created" them to do exactly what they are doing(Reunion), so, they are sucessful experiments.

Quote:

And now I'm back. "Esper Land" Jesus Christ.. Thamasa was a normal little town. This is -BEFORE- the whole Goddess thing, He had no powers from the Goddess' at this point. He killed the espers on his 'weaker' power level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

That post made it clear you don't think/know much of FFVI. Kefka was infused with esper magic, but taking that away from him is like taking away Sephiroth's sword, materia, and followers.

I didn't play FFVI. What i heard is that before Kefka absorbed the power of the statues, he manipulated Terra to open the gate/portal to "Esper Land"(or Thamasa or whatever), killed the Espers and absorbed their powers, becoming even more powerful than before. I only want to know if this is true, and even if i will play the game in the future, i like to read spoilers.
12-13-2006, 02:03 AM
Rocket Edge

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

No, looks are a big part of why people like villains more. I know Sephy is a great villain, but it's just that many people only or mainly like him because he looks cool. Looks are what made Sephy popular, but it doesn't make him a great villain. It's like saying a person is a great boyfriend/girlfriend because he/she looks good (though looks are what people might go for).

First of all i didn't say Sephy was my favourite, and also i was just stating about his looks in reply to that comment. Of course there has to be more depth to the character, and Sephy had it personified. The man was crazy, but in an exciting way. I could harp on about him for longer, but you get my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Original? They gave him a black coat, long silver hair, and a big ass sword. That's not very original.

Tell me, who looked like Sephiroth before the release of VII?
12-13-2006, 02:07 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

I thought Sephiroth could only control the other failed experiments (AKA black-caped Men) because he was in tune with Jenova.

And you are almost correct. The only thing that is wrong in your post, is that they aren't failed experiments. Hojo "created" them to do exactly what they are doing(Reunion), so, they are sucessful experiments.

Quote:

And now I'm back. "Esper Land" Jesus Christ.. Thamasa was a normal little town. This is -BEFORE- the whole Goddess thing, He had no powers from the Goddess' at this point. He killed the espers on his 'weaker' power level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

That post made it clear you don't think/know much of FFVI. Kefka was infused with esper magic, but taking that away from him is like taking away Sephiroth's sword, materia, and followers.

I didn't play FFVI. What i heard is that before Kefka absorbed the power of the statues, he manipulated Terra to open the gate/portal to "Esper Land"(or Thamasa or whatever), killed the Espers and absorbed their powers, becoming even more powerful than before. I only want to know if this is true, and even if i will play the game in the future, i like to read spoilers.

You really should play it.

(At the sealed gate.)
This is the sealed gate...
LOCKE: Beyond is the Esper World...
(If SETZER is there,)
SETZER: Why'd you bring me to such an awful place!?
TERRA: ......
(Kefka arrives behind them.)
TERRA! ...the gate...quickly!
K... ...Kefka!! You followed us!
KEFKA: U'hee, hee, heeee!!!! The Emperor was right! Let TERRA fall
into your hands, and you'd open the gate for us...! ......! How does
it feel to know you've been working for us?!

More so Kefka was just smart enough to know Terra and the Gang wanted to go get Espers help, in which Kefka had no place in other than the fact the wanted the espers help to get rid of him.

At Thamasa.

Sorry for the length. Oh and it's more like 11 espers or something.

KEFKA: G'ha, ha, ha! Emperor's orders! I'm to bring the Magicite
remains of these Espers to his excellency! Behold! A Magicite mother
lode!!
(Kefka kills Yura and two other Espers.)
KEFKA: Idiots!
KEFKA: I don't care for the appearance of this pitiful little
Hamlet... So burn it!!
LEO: Kefka! No!
KEFKA: Shut up!
(Leo is stricken down, but gets back up.)
LEO: Kefka! Your behavior is dishonorable! I can't allow this!
(Battle between Kefka and Leo begins. After a while, Kefka vanishes.)
KEFKA: Ah... ...Leo... ...always the consummate soldier......
LEO: Where are you, Kefka...... Show yourself!!
KEFKA: E M P E R O R G E S T A H L ... ...
I need you here......
(Gestahl appears out of nowhere.)
GESTAHL: Leo......
(Leo kneels down.)
LEO: My liege!
GESTAHL: I'm sorry I deceived even you, Leo. My purpose has been to
gather Magicite, and grow powerful...... Please understand me......
LEO: But, Emperor!
GESTAHL: Don't say anything. I understand how you feel.
KEFKA: Uwee, hee, hee...... That's right! What we have to do now is
collect Magicite!
LEO: But my liege... ...what have I been fighting for...?
GESTAHL: Leo, I'd like you to take a nice, long snooze...! Very long!
Uwa, ha!
(Gestahl changes to Kefka.)
LEO: !!!
KEFKA: So... ...you think you hit me?! That was simply my shadow!
And how did you like my Gestahl? I should've been on the stage!
Well, General......
(Kefka jumps and attacks Leo.)
KEFKA: You're such a goody two-shoes!
LEO: Shut up, Kefka! I oughtta......
KEFKA: Oh! A threat...? You're such a violent little brute! I'll
tell your "liege" that I had to exterminate a traitor...!
(Kefka kills Leo.)
KEFKA: Hate... ...hate... ...HATE!!
KEFKA: Whoa! Yes, I feel some incredible magic power here, today!
Wave after wave of pure, magical energy...
(Other Espers break out of the sealed gate.)
Wait we're here to help!
Hurry!
Get going!
KEFKA: I'd say you're all charged up, boys and girls...or whatever...
Say, remind me to show you my Magicite collection someday! You might
see a few familiar faces!!! Now for a little Magicite hocus-pocus...!
KEFKA: Now, little Espers... Let's see whatcha got!
(Kefka kills two Espers.)
KEFKA: Eh?! You wanna take me on? Fine. Here I am...
(Battle between Kefka and Esper begins. All attacks on Kefka refill
his HPs.)
KEFKA: Imagine! Thinking you could defeat ME!! This is rich! Mwa,
ha, ha! Now, my little Magicite pretties...... come, and help me
build the magical empire of "Kefka"!
(Kefka casts X-Zone on the Esper. He walks over and gets the Magicite
shard.)
KEFKA: G'haw, haw...... Ooh! They're warm to the touch!
(Battle ends.)
KEFKA: What treasures! This is ridiculous! I had no idea you were
such wimps! Time to put a stop to all this.
(Kefka kills seven Espers at the same time.)
KEFKA: Phew... I think I have plenty of Magicite for the time
being... that is, until I make my way through your precious sealed
gate!!
(Kefka is tickled by the reality.)
KEFKA: I don't believe this!
(Kefka laughs maniacally.)

:)
12-13-2006, 02:43 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traffic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Original? They gave him a black coat, long silver hair, and a big ass sword. That's not very original.

Tell me, who looked like Sephiroth before the release of VII?

Setzer had the long silver hair and coat going on...
http://www.videogamemm.com/forums/im...20-%20Wink.gif
And other then that Sephiroth didn't have much to him, long hair, and a big ass sword. Kefka, Kuja, and heck even Jecht looked more original then Sephiroth. He wins a pretty boy contest, not an originality contest.
12-13-2006, 03:03 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traffic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Original? They gave him a black coat, long silver hair, and a big ass sword. That's not very original.

Tell me, who looked like Sephiroth before the release of VII?

Setzer had the long silver hair and coat going on...
http://www.videogamemm.com/forums/im...20-%20Wink.gif
And other then that Sephiroth didn't have much to him, long hair, and a big ass sword. Kefka, Kuja, and heck even Jecht looked more original then Sephiroth. He wins a pretty boy contest, not an originality contest.

And I'm sure I can find various Anime guys like that created in 1997 and before.
12-13-2006, 04:07 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traffic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Original? They gave him a black coat, long silver hair, and a big ass sword. That's not very original.

Tell me, who looked like Sephiroth before the release of VII?

Setzer had the long silver hair and coat going on...
http://www.videogamemm.com/forums/im...20-%20Wink.gif
And other then that Sephiroth didn't have much to him, long hair, and a big ass sword. Kefka, Kuja, and heck even Jecht looked more original then Sephiroth. He wins a pretty boy contest, not an originality contest.

And I'm sure I can find various Anime guys like that created in 1997 and before.

Off the top of my Head, Char Aznable, Anavel Gato, and Zechs Merquis, Dark Schneider, etc.
12-13-2006, 04:32 PM
Rocket Edge

This picture is original & creepy (amano's first drawing of him).
http://www.tao.cx/tos/amanoart.gif

Besides everything else, don't take my word for it, take everyone else's. There's a reason why he was voted the #1 villian on various poll's etc.
12-13-2006, 11:43 PM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traffic

This picture is original & creepy (amano's first drawing of him).
http://www.tao.cx/tos/amanoart.gif

Besides everything else, don't take my word for it, take everyone else's. There's a reason why he was voted the #1 villian on various poll's etc.

Like it's been said before, it's his looks that make him the favorite of many and why he is so overrated. People who like villains such as Kefka and Kuja like them because of their villainy, and also, you hear Sehpy fans saying stuff like "Kefka is a clown" or "Kuja looks like a girl" and basically the only reason you hear why Sephy fanboys/fangirls say he looks cool is something like "pmgz sephiroth looks so friggen awesome and has a big sword." Now, people like 'The Crystal' actually go beyond his looks and gives many more reasons why Sephiroth is the best. Now, I may not agree with him, but at least I respect that he is actually supporting his opinion with facts (not opinions), something which some, if not most Sephy fans can't do, because they are all opinion and no facts.

And by the way, I never accused you of saying Sephiroth was your favorite. I was just replying to how looks make a villain liked more, not actually a greater villain.
12-13-2006, 11:48 PM
Reeno the Alchemist

well if i may i love sephy and in my opinion he is the best bad guy ever i mean he won the award of biggest badass bad guy award in electronic gaming magezine (its on my wall =D?)so i really do think hes the best
12-13-2006, 11:54 PM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reeno the Alchemist

well if i may i love sephy and in my opinion he is the best bad guy ever i mean he won the award of biggest badass bad guy award in electronic gaming magezine (its on my wall =D?)so i really do think hes the best

So tell me then, what do you like him for? How did you like him because of his great villainy?

Or do you only think he's the best because he looks cool?
12-14-2006, 01:38 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Like it's been said before, it's his looks that make him the favorite of many and why he is so overrated. People who like villains such as Kefka and Kuja like them because of their villainy, and also, you hear Sehpy fans saying stuff like "Kefka is a clown" or "Kuja looks like a girl" and basically the only reason you hear why Sephy fanboys/fangirls say he looks cool is something like "pmgz sephiroth looks so friggen awesome and has a big sword." Now, people like 'The Crystal' actually go beyond his looks and gives many more reasons why Sephiroth is the best. Now, I may not agree with him, but at least I respect that he is actually supporting his opinion with facts (not opinions), something which some, if not most Sephy fans can't do, because they are all opinion and no facts.

And by the way, I never accused you of saying Sephiroth was your favorite. I was just replying to how looks make a villain liked more, not actually a greater villain.

Pupu, i think that you didn't understand what i was saying about Sephiroth. I'm a big fan of him, but i NEVER said that he is the best. I was just talking about his powers. But we both know that powers are not everything. Like i said before, he don't have any good motives, and don't have any personality at all. I love him, but i know that he is far from being "the best villain ever".
12-14-2006, 01:57 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traffic

This picture is original & creepy (amano's first drawing of him).
http://www.tao.cx/tos/amanoart.gif

Besides everything else, don't take my word for it, take everyone else's. There's a reason why he was voted the #1 villian on various poll's etc.

Once again, he's just a guy in a black trench coat with long hair, and a big ass sword. So in looks he wins pretty boy, but not most unique. Unique would go to Kefka or Kuja (honestly how many guy main villians wear thongs?!?). On that note to many fans the pretty boy contest beats the unique contest, so those fans begin calling the pretty boy unique.

I'm not trying to insult you for liking Sephiroth. I'm merely pointing out that he is not very unique for appearence.
12-14-2006, 02:06 AM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Like it's been said before, it's his looks that make him the favorite of many and why he is so overrated. People who like villains such as Kefka and Kuja like them because of their villainy, and also, you hear Sehpy fans saying stuff like "Kefka is a clown" or "Kuja looks like a girl" and basically the only reason you hear why Sephy fanboys/fangirls say he looks cool is something like "pmgz sephiroth looks so friggen awesome and has a big sword." Now, people like 'The Crystal' actually go beyond his looks and gives many more reasons why Sephiroth is the best. Now, I may not agree with him, but at least I respect that he is actually supporting his opinion with facts (not opinions), something which some, if not most Sephy fans can't do, because they are all opinion and no facts.

And by the way, I never accused you of saying Sephiroth was your favorite. I was just replying to how looks make a villain liked more, not actually a greater villain.

Pupu, i think that you didn't understand what i was saying about Sephiroth. I'm a big fan of him, but i NEVER said that he is the best. I was just talking about his powers. But we both know that powers are not everything. Like i said before, he don't have any good motives, and don't have any personality at all. I love him, but i know that he is far from being "the best villain ever".

Sorry, a little mistake there. I meant to say that you gave thoughtful reasons and proof for Sephiroth being great, which many Sephy fanboys/fangirls can't do. I didn't know that you weren't saying he was the best since I didn't read every post involving you and Ryushikaze arguing, so I might have missed you saying that.

Edit: Argh. I accidentally put "the best" in again!
12-14-2006, 02:27 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Once again, he's just a guy in a black trench coat with long hair, and a big ass sword. So in looks he wins pretty boy, but not most unique. Unique would go to Kefka or Kuja (honestly how many guy main villians wear thongs?!?). On that note to many fans the pretty boy contest beats the unique contest, so those fans begin calling the pretty boy unique.

I'm not trying to insult you for liking Sephiroth. I'm merely pointing out that he is not very unique for appearence.

Yeah, but you have to admit that Kefka is not unique in appearence too. An "evil clown" is very cliche.
12-14-2006, 02:37 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Once again, he's just a guy in a black trench coat with long hair, and a big ass sword. So in looks he wins pretty boy, but not most unique. Unique would go to Kefka or Kuja (honestly how many guy main villians wear thongs?!?). On that note to many fans the pretty boy contest beats the unique contest, so those fans begin calling the pretty boy unique.

I'm not trying to insult you for liking Sephiroth. I'm merely pointing out that he is not very unique for appearence.

Yeah, but you have to admit that Kefka is not unique in appearence too. An "evil clown" is very cliche.

At the time it wasn't as Cliche, you have to note the almost 13 year difference.
12-14-2006, 05:14 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Once again, he's just a guy in a black trench coat with long hair, and a big ass sword. So in looks he wins pretty boy, but not most unique. Unique would go to Kefka or Kuja (honestly how many guy main villians wear thongs?!?). On that note to many fans the pretty boy contest beats the unique contest, so those fans begin calling the pretty boy unique.

I'm not trying to insult you for liking Sephiroth. I'm merely pointing out that he is not very unique for appearence.

Yeah, but you have to admit that Kefka is not unique in appearence too. An "evil clown" is very cliche.

At the time it wasn't as Cliche, you have to note the almost 13 year difference.

The Joker already existed 13 years ago, and i'm sure that we can discover other "evil clowns" if we search for it in the Internet. The idea that "clowns are scary and evil" is very old.
12-14-2006, 05:45 AM
Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Once again, he's just a guy in a black trench coat with long hair, and a big ass sword. So in looks he wins pretty boy, but not most unique. Unique would go to Kefka or Kuja (honestly how many guy main villians wear thongs?!?). On that note to many fans the pretty boy contest beats the unique contest, so those fans begin calling the pretty boy unique.

I'm not trying to insult you for liking Sephiroth. I'm merely pointing out that he is not very unique for appearence.

Yeah, but you have to admit that Kefka is not unique in appearence too. An "evil clown" is very cliche.

At the time it wasn't as Cliche, you have to note the almost 13 year difference.

The Joker already existed 13 years ago, and i'm sure that we can discover other "evil clowns" if we search for it in the Internet. The idea that "clowns are scary and evil" is very old.

What I'm saying is when I was 9 and I played it, I had no idea that there was this clown stereotype, seeing as most of the people played this game at a young age I'm going off that. :)
12-14-2006, 06:24 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarice-ness

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Once again, he's just a guy in a black trench coat with long hair, and a big ass sword. So in looks he wins pretty boy, but not most unique. Unique would go to Kefka or Kuja (honestly how many guy main villians wear thongs?!?). On that note to many fans the pretty boy contest beats the unique contest, so those fans begin calling the pretty boy unique.

I'm not trying to insult you for liking Sephiroth. I'm merely pointing out that he is not very unique for appearence.

Yeah, but you have to admit that Kefka is not unique in appearence too. An "evil clown" is very cliche.

At the time it wasn't as Cliche, you have to note the almost 13 year difference.

The Joker already existed 13 years ago, and i'm sure that we can discover other "evil clowns" if we search for it in the Internet. The idea that "clowns are scary and evil" is very old.

What I'm saying is when I was 9 and I played it, I had no idea that there was this clown stereotype, seeing as most of the people played this game at a young age I'm going off that. :)

Yeah, but the fact is that Kefka(like Sephiroth) was cliche. Many people thought that Sephiroth was cool(in appearence), because they never saw someone like him(until that time). But like Ryu proved, exist many characters like him, that were created before him, meaning that he was cliche. The same thing happened with Kefka.
12-14-2006, 08:30 AM
LazarCotoron

Sephiroth is the worst villain in the entire series, which was reinforced by Advent Children.

How can I say this about your emo goth-wannabe demi-badass Aeris killing skull kid pretty boy?

It's simple really. He peeks too early. Think about it-Sephi's best scene is when he comes walking out of the flames with the sinister bell music in the background. At that moment, I was thinking, "Oh hell yes." Unfortunately, that's also the problem-that was by far his best scene. Oh yes, some of you truly loved Aeris because she dies the tragic heroine, but she didn't really bring anything to the table in terms of the game.

He never ONCE comes CLOSE to equaling the air of menace and badassness promised in that scene. Hell, when you get to the end of the game, his battle is a total joke, and his motivations are based around a Freudian mother complex, which is driven home for extra points in Advent Children.

Thank you and GOOD NIGHT!
12-14-2006, 11:26 AM
swatzlewatt

what you talking about, that was sweet when Aeris died, she died good
12-14-2006, 11:31 AM
.:kerrod:.

yeh, tru dat :p, the only thing she was good for was her overdrives (she dressed horribly and constantly reminded me of a boy-girl when she jumped forward to fight in her man-boots), and by the time i got her final overdrive (didnt even get to teach it to her) the inconsiderate b**ch died on me!
12-14-2006, 11:33 AM
swatzlewatt

it was a good death, who else thought it was a good death:D
12-14-2006, 11:35 AM
.:kerrod:.

MEEEEEE, don't get me wrong, i didnt hate her, i actually felt quite sorry that she died (cos of her overderives :p) but it was really a nice death, though they needed blood.....lots and lots of blood. i still felt sorry for her.....but yeh
12-14-2006, 11:38 AM
swatzlewatt

i didnt, the garden hoe can die
12-14-2006, 11:40 AM
.:kerrod:.

haha, nice.....neway, she died to early, for it to be a bigger impact we needed to get to know her better, she should have died end of 2nd disk
12-14-2006, 12:00 PM
swatzlewatt

or when she gives you flowers/not give, gets shot my the shinra people, hehehhehe
12-14-2006, 12:36 PM
Aemilius Blight

Sephiroth was decent enough as a villain but I tend to agree with the vast majority here that he is not the best villain in the series. That would probably be Kefka.
12-14-2006, 12:53 PM
Rocket Edge

Quote:

Like it's been said before, it's his looks that make him the favorite of many and why he is so overrated.

And like i said before, i thought he had an excellent personality, and made a great villian.

Quote:

People who like villains such as Kefka and Kuja like them because of their villainy

That's your opinion, and that's fair enough, but i think Sephy had more of that than them.

Quote:

and also, you hear Sehpy fans saying stuff like "Kefka is a clown" or "Kuja looks like a girl" and basically the only reason you hear why Sephy fanboys/fangirls say he looks cool is something like "pmgz sephiroth looks so friggen awesome and has a big sword."

True, but see, this is where it's hard to have an educated argument about Sephiroth, because everyone sees the fanboys/girls rave on about them and they automatically think he's overrated. When i first played VII, i was excited by Sephiroth's character, hell i was excited by Kefka's too, but saying that Sephiroth is unoriginal & such leaves me to say you have been reading into the forum's too much. When you first played VII, did you feel the same about him?

Quote:

Now, people like 'The Crystal' actually go beyond his looks and gives many more reasons why Sephiroth is the best. Now, I may not agree with him, but at least I respect that he is actually supporting his opinion with facts (not opinions), something which some, if not most Sephy fans can't do, because they are all opinion and no facts.

That's what my argument is, about my opinion on Sephiroth. I was just using the fact about the poll to back up my answer.

Quote:

And by the way, I never accused you of saying Sephiroth was your favorite. I was just replying to how looks make a villain liked more, not actually a greater villain.

Obviously you didn't, i just wanted to let you know. It was just a statement, not something got to do with this argument, so it's irrelivant either way.
12-14-2006, 01:16 PM
Wild0ne

Sephiroth has that feeling of pure evilness....He is just so cold, the way he talks...everything. It just makes him a great villian...I would have to say he is the best...an opinion obviously, I don't need facts to support an opinion, especially if other people don't feel the same way...

Kefka is awesome too...but in a much different way. He protrayed more of insanity. He was evil too, just not concentrated like Sephiroth. He moved statues that controled the balance of the world, without even thinking!! And used poison on the water supply not caring about families! He seemed to have a few screws loose. Evil and a good villian yes, but it seems that someone more in control of what they were doing could do better...

Kuja...I thought he was a woman the whole game!! I kept confusing him with Beatrix!! LOL...He actually had some control of his actions, but saying he was a good villian is like saying liza is too..you need looks and personality..he definitely had the personality...and the power..but I would take a guy in a trench coat with a long sword over a guy wearing a thong anyday...
12-14-2006, 02:28 PM
chrisfffan

posted by PuPu

Like it's been said before, it's his looks that make him the favorite of many and why he is so overrated. People who like villains such as Kefka and Kuja like them because of their villainy, and also, you hear Sehpy fans saying stuff like "Kefka is a clown" or "Kuja looks like a girl" and basically the only reason you hear why Sephy fanboys/fangirls say he looks cool is something like "pmgz sephiroth looks so friggen awesome and has a big sword." Now, people like 'The Crystal' actually go beyond his looks and gives many more reasons why Sephiroth is the best. Now, I may not agree with him, but at least I respect that he is actually supporting his opinion with facts (not opinions), something which some, if not most Sephy fans can't do, because they are all opinion and no facts.

And by the way, I never accused you of saying Sephiroth was your favorite. I was just replying to how looks make a villain liked more, not actually a greater villain.

this is all about opinions nobody knows who is the greatest villain in the series you say you have facts you don’t! neither do I, its all opinions.
12-14-2006, 09:52 PM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

posted by PuPu

Like it's been said before, it's his looks that make him the favorite of many and why he is so overrated. People who like villains such as Kefka and Kuja like them because of their villainy, and also, you hear Sehpy fans saying stuff like "Kefka is a clown" or "Kuja looks like a girl" and basically the only reason you hear why Sephy fanboys/fangirls say he looks cool is something like "pmgz sephiroth looks so friggen awesome and has a big sword." Now, people like 'The Crystal' actually go beyond his looks and gives many more reasons why Sephiroth is the best. Now, I may not agree with him, but at least I respect that he is actually supporting his opinion with facts (not opinions), something which some, if not most Sephy fans can't do, because they are all opinion and no facts.

And by the way, I never accused you of saying Sephiroth was your favorite. I was just replying to how looks make a villain liked more, not actually a greater villain.

this is all about opinions nobody knows who is the greatest villain in the series you say you have facts you don’t! neither do I, its all opinions.

Um, yeah he does.
Kefka downed 8+ Espers FACT
Kuja demolished a world (the extant can be argued but he demoed some of it at least) FACT
Stuff like...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc. is really cool and was great OPINION
but if it was said like this...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc.'s acts through out the game potray that he is insane which makes him a better villian FACT (as long as the acts are listed.
12-14-2006, 11:51 PM
Aemilius Blight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc.'s acts through out the game potray that he is insane which makes him a better villian FACT (as long as the acts are listed.

Except the notion that insanity makes for a better villain is also a matter of opinion. There are plenty of non-insane villains that are very highly regarded (Darth Vader, for example).
12-15-2006, 02:12 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aemilius Blight

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goldenboco

Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc.'s acts through out the game potray that he is insane which makes him a better villian FACT (as long as the acts are listed.

Except the notion that insanity makes for a better villain is also a matter of opinion. There are plenty of non-insane villains that are very highly regarded (Darth Vader, for example).

You know what I was going for providing facts behind your reasons....
12-16-2006, 09:09 AM
chrisfffan

Posted by Goldenboco

Um, yeah he does
Kefka downed 8+ Espers FACT
Kuja demolished a world (the extant can be argued but he demoed some of it at least) FACT
Stuff like...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc. is really cool and was great OPINION
but if it was said like this...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc.'s acts through out the game potray that he is insane which makes him a better villian FACT (as long as the acts are listed.

Ok I could say that because Sephiroth killed the only playable character in the series that makes him the must ruthless villain but its just a opinion.
12-16-2006, 09:24 AM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

Posted by Goldenboco

Um, yeah he does
Kefka downed 8+ Espers FACT
Kuja demolished a world (the extant can be argued but he demoed some of it at least) FACT
Stuff like...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc. is really cool and was great OPINION
but if it was said like this...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc.'s acts through out the game potray that he is insane which makes him a better villian FACT (as long as the acts are listed.

Ok I could say that because Sephiroth killed the only playable character in the series that makes him the must ruthless villain but its just a opinion.

Uh, Sephy isn't the only one to score a player kill. Galuf ring a bell?
12-16-2006, 11:18 AM
chrisfffan

as I have said before I don’t know about the really old games im only 20! but with the final fantasy game on the ps1 and ps2 no other bad guy has killed a character you have role-played come to think of it on any game.
12-16-2006, 02:46 PM
The Crystal

Sephiroth did many cool things too. He burned a village full of inocent people, he killed everyone inside the building that was the HQ of the most powerfull corporation in the world(and killed the president of it), after you almost died fighting the Midgar Zolom(for the first time) you discover that Sephiroth killed it AND impaled it on a tree like it was nothing, he could create illusions to trick people, was capable of controlling Jenova with only the power of his will, killed a playable character, summoned Meteor and created fear in all the population of the world, everyone that was killed by the Weapons and everything that they destroyed is Sephiroth's fault because the Weapons are free BECAUSE of him(even if this wasn't part of his original plan), hold Holly(one of the most powerful magic in the world) with only the power of his will, his Meteor destroyed Midgar(and released the Deep Ground Soldiers of their prison), he "poisoned" the entire world with Geostigma, etc.

Who say that Sephiroth only burned a village, killed a flower girl, and summoned a meteor, have to play the game again(and watch AC).
12-16-2006, 03:09 PM
Aemilius Blight

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

as I have said before I don’t know about the really old games im only 20! but with the final fantasy game on the ps1 and ps2 no other bad guy has killed a character you have role-played come to think of it on any game.

Err, ok. But then how can you possibly judge that Sephiroth is the best villain in the series if you haven't played FFI-VI? That's more or less half the series.
12-16-2006, 06:25 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

as I have said before I don’t know about the really old games im only 20! but with the final fantasy game on the ps1 and ps2 no other bad guy has killed a character you have role-played come to think of it on any game.

Galuf comes from FF5. Hardly the really old games, especially since it was re-released for the PS1 in the last several years.

As for age, I'm 22. I've played all the games.

Face it. Sephy wasn't the first villian to kill a party member.
12-17-2006, 12:21 AM
PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Sephiroth did many cool things too. He burned a village full of inocent people, he killed everyone inside the building that was the HQ of the most powerfull corporation in the world(and killed the president of it), after you almost died fighting the Midgar Zolom(for the first time) you discover that Sephiroth killed it AND impaled it on a tree like it was nothing, he could create illusions to trick people, was capable of controlling Jenova with only the power of his will, killed a playable character, summoned Meteor and created fear in all the population of the world, everyone that was killed by the Weapons and everything that they destroyed is Sephiroth's fault because the Weapons are free BECAUSE of him(even if this wasn't part of his original plan), hold Holly(one of the most powerful magic in the world) with only the power of his will, his Meteor destroyed Midgar(and released the Deep Ground Soldiers of their prison), he "poisoned" the entire world with Geostigma, etc.

Who say that Sephiroth only burned a village, killed a flower girl, and summoned a meteor, have to play the game again(and watch AC).

This is exactly what I was talking about. You give all these great reasons as to why Sephiroth is a great villain. All of these things here are very good and true and really convince me to what you are saying.

Chris, I've never seen you actually elaborate on anything that you have said about Sephiroth. In fact, it seemed that you have been trying to tell everybody why Sephiroth was great for the past ten pages. Well, actually, you hardly did anything except act all predictable fanboyish like while other people like "The Crystal" were the ones who were actually trying to argue why Sephiroth was great. I have no problem with people posting their opinions, but you are just doing the same opinionated and biased posts again and again. It's not like you see me or anybody else who posted saying: "Kuja is the #1 villain because that's what I think and it must be true." (OK, there have been a few, but they didn't do it repeatedly.)

And by the way, I do think Sephiroth is a great villain, (but not as good as Kefka or Kuja) just not blindly.
12-17-2006, 12:49 AM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by PuPu

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Crystal

Sephiroth did many cool things too. He burned a village full of inocent people, he killed everyone inside the building that was the HQ of the most powerfull corporation in the world(and killed the president of it), after you almost died fighting the Midgar Zolom(for the first time) you discover that Sephiroth killed it AND impaled it on a tree like it was nothing, he could create illusions to trick people, was capable of controlling Jenova with only the power of his will, killed a playable character, summoned Meteor and created fear in all the population of the world, everyone that was killed by the Weapons and everything that they destroyed is Sephiroth's fault because the Weapons are free BECAUSE of him(even if this wasn't part of his original plan), hold Holly(one of the most powerful magic in the world) with only the power of his will, his Meteor destroyed Midgar(and released the Deep Ground Soldiers of their prison), he "poisoned" the entire world with Geostigma, etc.

Who say that Sephiroth only burned a village, killed a flower girl, and summoned a meteor, have to play the game again(and watch AC).

This is exactly what I was talking about. You give all these great reasons as to why Sephiroth is a great villain. All of these things here are very good and true and really convince me to what you are saying.

Chris, I've never seen you actually elaborate on anything that you have said about Sephiroth. In fact, it seemed that you have been trying to tell everybody why Sephiroth was great for the past ten pages. Well, actually, you hardly did anything except act all predictable fanboyish like while other people like "The Crystal" were the ones who were actually trying to argue why Sephiroth was great. I have no problem with people posting their opinions, but you are just doing the same opinionated and biased posts again and again. It's not like you see me or anybody else who posted saying: "Kuja is the #1 villain because that's what I think and it must be true." (OK, there have been a few, but they didn't do it repeatedly.)

And by the way, I do think Sephiroth is a great villain, (but not as good as Kefka or Kuja) just not blindly.

Well, to say the truth, i'm not 100% sure if what i said about Deep Ground was right. Some people say that Meteor released them, but other people say the contrary. I tried to edit the post, but for some reason, the "edit" link wasn't there anymore.
12-17-2006, 01:38 AM
Goldenboko

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

Posted by Goldenboco

Um, yeah he does
Kefka downed 8+ Espers FACT
Kuja demolished a world (the extant can be argued but he demoed some of it at least) FACT
Stuff like...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc. is really cool and was great OPINION
but if it was said like this...
Kuja/Kefka/Sephiroth/etc.'s acts through out the game potray that he is insane which makes him a better villian FACT (as long as the acts are listed.

Ok I could say that because Sephiroth killed the only playable character in the series that makes him the must ruthless villain but its just a opinion.

Please STOP BRINGING UP DEAD PARTY MEMBERS! I've already told you (SPOILER)Tellah is in FFIV. Not to mention deaths in FFV, and possibly VI depending if you wait for Shadow.... I forgot to wait for Shadow... he went bye-bye :crying2::crying2::crying2::crying2:
12-17-2006, 01:51 AM
Aemilius Blight

To be fair, the antagonists in those games only indirectly kill those PCs. Galuf is the only real player character (not including Leo, since he was only a 'guest' character) that I can think of to meet his end at the hands of the main villain pre-FFVII.
12-17-2006, 09:44 AM
YTDN

Somehow I think the villian is more evil if they kill random NPCs and unnamed townspeople, because they are 'innocent' people. What I mean by that, is that the PCs are trying to kill said villian, so, in self-defence, they would kill the PC. But the NPCs never did anything against the villain, so it seems slightly more evil to kill innocent NPCs than slightly less innocent PCs.

Remember, the above paragraph is an OPINION. Not FACT.
12-17-2006, 01:04 PM
chrisfffan

And I think that if a villain kills a party member it has more of a effect on a game then random people because you don’t know them or their story and as somebody else said he didn’t just kill one person he left that town in flames killed the head of shinra and a lot of other people.
01-07-2007, 05:12 PM
Orgasmic

Well, both Sephiroth and Kuja ar the coolest bad guys if you ask me.. But that lame Seymour from FFX is really horrible.. He's got this, strange sissy voice and he looks like a bad ripoff of Sephiroth..
01-07-2007, 10:00 PM
chrisfffan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orgasmic

Well, both Sephiroth and Kuja ar the coolest bad guys if you ask me.. But that lame Seymour from FFX is really horrible.. He's got this, strange sissy voice and he looks like a bad ripoff of Sephiroth..

yea he is horrible his voice is really weird image having that voice! ha ha i think that theirs only 3 that can claim to be the best bad guy in the series

in no order
1. Sephiroth
2. Kuja
3. Kefla is that his name?
01-07-2007, 11:33 PM
The Crystal

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisfffan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orgasmic

Well, both Sephiroth and Kuja ar the coolest bad guys if you ask me.. But that lame Seymour from FFX is really horrible.. He's got this, strange sissy voice and he looks like a bad ripoff of Sephiroth..

yea he is horrible his voice is really weird image having that voice! ha ha i think that theirs only 3 that can claim to be the best bad guy in the series

in no order
1. Sephiroth
2. Kuja
3. Kefla is that his name?

His name is Kefka. And latelly, i'm hearing some people say that Vayne is a very good villain too.
01-10-2007, 01:00 PM
G3ORGE

Quote:

His name is Kefka. And latelly, i'm hearing some people say that Vayne is a very good villain too.

Vane rooney? xD

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