If Tifa and Aerith fought...

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11-23-2006, 08:13 AM
Firo Volondé

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by blitz_king10

You're right, Aerith doesn't have exclusive capability to hear the planet - any living Cetra could. Hmmm... wait a minute! Aerith is the only living Cetra left! Therefore, Sephiroth was as worried about Aerith as he was about Holy, probably more, since Aerith was the one utilizing Holy, not vice versa.

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.
Also, to be frank, the idea that the cetra, who are absolutely capable of looking exactly like and interbreeding with the rest of homo sapiens, died out is a silly notion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

They look identical to regular humans but possess a unique ability to commune with the planet and to guide the flow of its spiritual energy. All ordinary humans can trace their origins to the Cetra, having ceased to become Ancients when they gave up their migratory life-style and link to the earth in favor of permanent settlements and a more relaxed way of living.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.

Bugenhagen is not a Cetra. Otherwise he would have been imprisoned by Shinra, or certainly would have tried to use Holy, instead of giving Cloud and co. advice:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud: Even us!?

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the
planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear.
That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlanteay

so anyone can summon Holy once they have the materia for it? So even Barret or Cid can summon holy? did Mr. Gamescript ever say that?

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER.
Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Being a major plot device, the White Materia cannot be equipped or used in battle, and technically does not exist as an item at all in the game engine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Aerith: Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it.
11-23-2006, 08:16 AM
LunarWeaver

If only this had a poll so it could be decided by popularity contest as it should be.
11-23-2006, 09:42 AM
Riana

To be honest, I don't think Aeris would fight at all. She tries to avoid such conflicts.

And who on Earth would fight in a dress anyway? God knows I've tried, not easy doing high kicks in a skirt. @_@;

All these posts have interesting points, about Aeris' magic and Tifa's abilities. But the real question is, who is the better strategist? Isn't that what battling is all about? I don't think it matters what you use in a battle it's how you use it.

Anyway I say Aeris. =p
11-23-2006, 10:03 AM
RiseToFall

What is wrong with some of you people? Tifa will have no problem taking out Aeris.
11-23-2006, 10:41 AM
Carl the Llama

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Well first of all lets say they were fighting in the game of FFVII Aerith would win as it would be turn based and she would use her Great Gospel... Id like to see Tifa do damage to someone who is invincible, secondly she has many great healing abilitys, yea she may be physically weak but she has awesom magical capeabilitys and like in D&D who would win a fight out of a wizard and a fighter?

1- Tifa has the higher speed and would win init. Aerith cannot use gospel if Tifa pwns her first.
4- Actually, to make a D&D comparison, it's comparing the cleric to the monk, which is a whole different kettle of fish.

1. I'm sorry but thats rubish, we arent talking about the movie where battles are set in Real Time we are talking about a battle inside the game where the battle would be Turn Based so the battle would go somthing like this:
Tifa: attack
Aerith: Fire (or some other magical spell)
(and say for instance Tifa is faster as you say maybe she would get 2 turns thus filling up Aeriths limit bar that much faster.
half way through the fight Aerith uses Great Gospel and she is now invincible
Tifa: FINAL HEAVEN!!!!
Aerith: takes 0 damage
Tifa: "Oh crap"
4. I'm sorry but thats a load of Bull, Aerith is recognised as the mage of FFVII and as such she would be a mage in any such D&D comparison, its just the fact that practically no one used her as a mage its their loss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

She who has exactly as much access to fireballs as Tifa. Also, I just realized, the first situation isn't possible, or more accurately, damn improbable. It would take eight turns to pull- four with quickened spells- delayed blast fireballs, and a high enough relevant ability modifier, making the situation both high level and high stats, unless something's been left out of the tale here.

so your saying that in a turn based battle with Tifa at lets say for arguements sake they are level 30 both that she could kill Aerith in 1 hit? dont be stupid of corse she couldnt, while she would have the greater physical stats Aerith would have greater magical stats and would do much more damage with her magic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Materia is open to anyone with the knowledge to use it. Aerith, as a Cetra, has the capability to hear the planet which is pulling her to use the power, but not the exclusive capability. And I never said Aerith+Holy was not a threat. Just that Aerith- Holy would not have been.

lets not go down the road if and but's, Aerith did have holy and she was the only one who could have used Holy. Full stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

and how do we know that Cait Sith cannot outarmwrestle Proud Clod? And how do we know Barret can't do quantum physics in his head? We have no evidence of Aerith moving quickly, hence we have no reason to believe that she is capable of things she has never been observed doing.

Well the 2 things you said are completely ridiculas its like saying how do we know that Bruce Lee could kick some 10y/o's ass: its just somthing that you know just as the same that we "just know" that Barret cant do quantum physics and that Cait Sith cant arm wrestle the Proud Clod it possible that Aerith can move fast if she has such a need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Though, speaking of Mage Vs Fighter, I recently had a battle between a Tome and Blood based character and Complete Mage based character. We called it after an hour of not being able to kill each other.

good for you =D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Disagree. Holy was using Aerith to be cast, Aerith just went along with it.
Also, to be frank, the idea that the cetra, who are absolutely capable of looking exactly like and interbreeding with the rest of homo sapiens, died out is a silly notion. Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.

Holy was useing Aerith? iv never heard such a ridiculas thing in my life, Holy is a materia and materia dont "use" people its the other way around Aerith used holy. Besides the Cetra were powerful magical beings, thats how Materia was made:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.
11-23-2006, 07:06 PM
atlanteay

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Well first of all lets say they were fighting in the game of FFVII Aerith would win as it would be turn based and she would use her Great Gospel... Id like to see Tifa do damage to someone who is invincible, secondly she has many great healing abilitys, yea she may be physically weak but she has awesom magical capeabilitys and like in D&D who would win a fight out of a wizard and a fighter?

1- Tifa has the higher speed and would win init. Aerith cannot use gospel if Tifa pwns her first.
4- Actually, to make a D&D comparison, it's comparing the cleric to the monk, which is a whole different kettle of fish.

1. I'm sorry but thats rubish, we arent talking about the movie where battles are set in Real Time we are talking about a battle inside the game where the battle would be Turn Based so the battle would go somthing like this:
Tifa: attack
Aerith: Fire (or some other magical spell)
(and say for instance Tifa is faster as you say maybe she would get 2 turns thus filling up Aeriths limit bar that much faster.
half way through the fight Aerith uses Great Gospel and she is now invincible
Tifa: FINAL HEAVEN!!!!
Aerith: takes 0 damage
Tifa: "Oh crap"
4. I'm sorry but thats a load of Bull, Aerith is recognised as the mage of FFVII and as such she would be a mage in any such D&D comparison, its just the fact that practically no one used her as a mage its their loss.

well. if tifa gets two turns to hit Aerith then might i add that she would be dead pretty soon :rolleyes2 if you think about it, two hits that can fill the bar means pretty strong hits and Aerith is not exactly the best defender so that means she'll be dead before she even gets to use Great Gospel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.
11-23-2006, 10:04 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by blitz_king10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

They look identical to regular humans but possess a unique ability to commune with the planet and to guide the flow of its spiritual energy. All ordinary humans can trace their origins to the Cetra, having ceased to become Ancients when they gave up their migratory life-style and link to the earth in favor of permanent settlements and a more relaxed way of living.

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.

Bugenhagen is not a Cetra. Otherwise he would have been imprisoned by Shinra, or certainly would have tried to use Holy, instead of giving Cloud and co. advice:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud: Even us!?

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the
planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear.
That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?

Note I never said Bugen was a Cetra. Though it IS worth noting that your Bugen quote comes from him y'know, listening to the planet in the cascade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Being a major plot device, the White Materia cannot be equipped or used in battle, and technically does not exist as an item at all in the game engine.

Repeat note regarding Wikipedia, also, relevance?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Aerith: Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it.

Yes, Aerith thinks she's the only one that can use it. She's not omniscient. Excuse me for not thinking the Cetra are complete smegheads and placed a ridiculous limiter on their override/ abort device.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

1. I'm sorry but thats rubish, we arent talking about the movie where battles are set in Real Time we are talking about a battle inside the game where the battle would be Turn Based so the battle would go somthing like this:

FF7 uses the ATB system, but that's somewhat beside the point. Why are you using a gameplay engine we know to not fully represent combat as somehow more comprehensive than actual combat? No, really. Do tell.

Quote:

Tifa: attack
Aerith: Fire (or some other magical spell)
(and say for instance Tifa is faster as you say maybe she would get 2 turns thus filling up Aeriths limit bar that much faster.

Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.

Quote:

half way through the fight Aerith uses Great Gospel and she is now invincible
Tifa: FINAL HEAVEN!!!!
Aerith: takes 0 damage
Tifa: "Oh crap"

Now Aerith can try damaging Tifa until GG wears off. That will be fun. Of course, Atlanteay's point is also valid, especially if one uses the godhand/deathblow combo.

Quote:

4. I'm sorry but thats a load of Bull, Aerith is recognised as the mage of FFVII and as such she would be a mage in any such D&D comparison, its just the fact that practically no one used her as a mage its their loss.

She may be 'recognized' as the mage, but that hardly makes her one, especially since she only has healer spells sans materia, making her actually more akin to the obscure 'healer' class than anything else.

Quote:

so your saying that in a turn based battle with Tifa at lets say for arguements sake they are level 30 both that she could kill Aerith in 1 hit? dont be stupid of corse she couldnt, while she would have the greater physical stats Aerith would have greater magical stats and would do much more damage with her magic.

This has absolutely nothing to do with my tangent, but yes, Tifa can 1HKO Aerith, with Godhand/Deathblow. And the amount by which Tifa's physical stats outclass Aerith's is higher than the amount by which the reverse occurs.

Quote:

lets not go down the road if and but's, Aerith did have holy and she was the only one who could have used Holy. Full stop.

She had Holy. She was not the only one who could have used it.

Quote:

Well the 2 things you said are completely ridiculas its like saying how do we know that Bruce Lee could kick some 10y/o's ass: its just somthing that you know just as the same that we "just know" that Barret cant do quantum physics and that Cait Sith cant arm wrestle the Proud Clod it possible that Aerith can move fast if she has such a need to.

You miss the point. My two examples have never even hinted at having that capability. Similarly, Aerith has ALSO never hinted at being able to move at high speed. Especially in a critical situation.

Quote:

Holy was useing Aerith? iv never heard such a ridiculas thing in my life, Holy is a materia and materia dont "use" people its the other way around Aerith used holy. Besides the Cetra were powerful magical beings, thats how Materia was made:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

Thank you for proving my earlier point. However, Holy WANTED to be cast, since Meteor had been, and its purpose was to counteract it. People use materia, but when the materia wishes to be used, the dynamic changes slightly, would you not agree?
11-23-2006, 10:20 PM
Carl the Llama

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlanteay

well. if tifa gets two turns to hit Aerith then might i add that she would be dead pretty soon :rolleyes2 if you think about it, two hits that can fill the bar means pretty strong hits and Aerith is not exactly the best defender so that means she'll be dead before she even gets to use Great Gospel.

You obviously misunder stood what I wrote: I didnt mean that 2 hits would fill up her bar I mean that if Tifa is as quick as everyone says she is then she could possibly get 2 hits to Aerith's 1 and even if she would get hit twice and Aerith did nothing but heal for most of the fight once she has Great Gospel Tifa would be doomed

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlanteay

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.

No, Aerith is the only one who can use Holy: its a Cetra only spell if you will: it could be somthing akin to giveing a level 1 Cloud KotR: he does not have enough MP to use it end of story: let me put this clear to everyone: Aerith (being of the Cetra) is the ONLY one who can use Holy there is no if's or buts this is fact and trying to say otherwise is like trying to say the Sun is made of ice: clearly not true, you can try to say oh but this and oh but that but it will never happen: the reason Aerith had to die and was a threat to Sephiroth was for the sole reason that only she (being of the Cetra) can summon Holy. Is that clear enough for you?
11-23-2006, 10:57 PM
atlanteay

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlanteay

well. if tifa gets two turns to hit Aerith then might i add that she would be dead pretty soon :rolleyes2 if you think about it, two hits that can fill the bar means pretty strong hits and Aerith is not exactly the best defender so that means she'll be dead before she even gets to use Great Gospel.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

You obviously misunder stood what I wrote: I didnt mean that 2 hits would fill up her bar I mean that if Tifa is as quick as everyone says she is then she could possibly get 2 hits to Aerith's 1 and even if she would get hit twice and Aerith did nothing but heal for most of the fight once she has Great Gospel Tifa would be doomed

how can tifa be doomed? If Aerith did use Great Gospel, that would only make her invincible for a number for turns. Since Aerith gets to have Materia to cure herself, then Tifa should have cure also. So tifa can cure herself once Aerith damages her. Once great gospel wears off, Tifa's limit bar would be full by then so Final Heaven could've easily K.O.ed Aerith.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlanteay

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.

No, Aerith is the only one who can use Holy: its a Cetra only spell if you will: it could be somthing akin to giveing a level 1 Cloud KotR: he does not have enough MP to use it end of story: let me put this clear to everyone: Aerith (being of the Cetra) is the ONLY one who can use Holy there is no if's or buts this is fact and trying to say otherwise is like trying to say the Sun is made of ice: clearly not true, you can try to say oh but this and oh but that but it will never happen: the reason Aerith had to die and was a threat to Sephiroth was for the sole reason that only she (being of the Cetra) can summon Holy. Is that clear enough for you?

did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.
11-24-2006, 02:38 AM
Dragon Mage

*sigh* If you are faster in a battle your chances of winning is greatly increased. You can dodge the opponents attacks and land more of your own blows as well. Tifa is obviously faster than Aeris. (Have you ever tried to haul ass in a dress? It's a pain in the ass trust me, esp., if you're wearing high heels.)
Secondly, Aeris is not a offensive fighter. She is a defensive fighter, when she fights, and a 100th level cleric to boot. Her damage is very low and there's a reason why she is automatically put in the back row in the game.
Now, if you assume that both of them have maxed MP and HP, the situation is easier to look at. Let's do so from now on, it makes things so much easier. Now, if Aeris can use materia, then Tifa can as well. Aeris uses GG and attacks Tifa, Tifa can simply use Regen, Big Guard, and then stop on Aeris to counteract Aeris' attack, until GG wears off. Then it's time for an asswhoopin'. I'm sorry, deny it all you want, but Tifa will win. At least she survived in the game.
11-24-2006, 02:24 PM
Firo Volondé

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by blitz_king10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

They look identical to regular humans but possess a unique ability to commune with the planet and to guide the flow of its spiritual energy. All ordinary humans can trace their origins to the Cetra, having ceased to become Ancients when they gave up their migratory life-style and link to the earth in favor of permanent settlements and a more relaxed way of living.

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.

Stop insulting Wikipedia and deny the statement. You didn't deny it, because you know it's true. Your only defense is the claim that Wikipedia doesn't verify its articles, which it does. Try making a spam thread and see how long it lasts. Wikipedia clearly states that it uses, among other sources, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω, as evidence. Your arguments are easier to kill than Aeris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Or rather, that Aerith is the only one capable of hearing the planet (which she canonically isn't, mind. Bugen comes to mind), if their abilities are genetic, seems incredibly unlikely.

Bugenhagen is not a Cetra. Otherwise he would have been imprisoned by Shinra, or certainly would have tried to use Holy, instead of giving Cloud and co. advice:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Bugenhagen: Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor. If a soul seeking Holy reaches the planet, it will appear. Ho Ho Hoooo. Meteor, Weapon, everything will disappear. Perhaps, even ourselves.

Cloud: Even us!?

Bugenhagen: It is up to the planet to decide. What is best for the
planet. What is bad for the planet. All that is bad will disappear.
That is all. Ho Ho Hoooo. I wonder which we humans are?

Note I never said Bugen was a Cetra. Though it IS worth noting that your Bugen quote comes from him y'know, listening to the planet in the cascade.

You're right, you never said Bugen was a Cetra. Therefore, you brought up a totally useless point, as only Cetra can use the White Materia. My mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Being a major plot device, the White Materia cannot be equipped or used in battle, and technically does not exist as an item at all in the game engine.

Repeat note regarding Wikipedia, also, relevance?

Repeat note regarding claiming Wikipedia is wrong, and not denying my statement because it's true. Please dig out your copy of FFVII (judging by your arguments, it hasn't been used in a long time), and try to equip the White Materia on somebody. What's that? You can't? Didn't think so. Also, if I remember correctly, you, Ryushikaze, said that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER. Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.

Need I repeat my statement about White Materia being unequippable, even by the mighty Cid?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Aerith: Only a survivor of the Cetra, like me, can do it.

Yes, Aerith thinks she's the only one that can use it. She's not omniscient. Excuse me for not thinking the Cetra are complete smegheads and placed a ridiculous limiter on their override/ abort device.

*Sighs, and starts talking in the tone used to explain to a 4-year old fire is hot* Only Cetra can use Holy. Made-up words, like smeghead, make you look dumb.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Tifa can 1HKO Aerith, with Godhand/Deathblow.

I know! I'll use your own quote against you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.

If Tifa gets deathblow, so does Aeris. So after she uses GG, she can use deathblow against Tifa. Bye-Bye Tifa!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

lets not go down the road if and but's, Aerith did have holy and she was the only one who could have used Holy. Full stop.

She had Holy. She was not the only one who could have used it.

YES SHE WAS. SURELY IF ANYONE COULD DO IT, SHE WOULD'VE HAVE GONE ALONE?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Holy was useing Aerith? iv never heard such a ridiculas thing in my life, Holy is a materia and materia dont "use" people its the other way around Aerith used holy. Besides the Cetra were powerful magical beings, thats how Materia was made:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic
too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and
wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can
freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts
between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

Thank you for proving my earlier point. However, Holy WANTED to be cast, since Meteor had been, and its purpose was to counteract it. People use materia, but when the materia wishes to be used, the dynamic changes slightly, would you not agree?

Very good. You managed to out-smart that person, if he or she even existed (I note you don't say who said it).

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlanteay

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by atlanteay

Quote:

Originally Posted by ~Reno~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Cloud: By the way… Why is it that when you use materia you can also use magic

too?

Sephiroth: You were in SOLDIER and didn't even know that? …the knowledge and

wisdom of the Ancients is held in the materia. Anyone with this knowledge can

freely use the powers of the Land and the Planet. That knowledge interacts

between ourselves and the planet calling up magic……or so they say.

so that proves that anyone with the White Materia can summon holy. Aerith just happened to have a mother with that materia who gaved it to her.

No, Aerith is the only one who can use Holy: its a Cetra only spell if you will: it could be somthing akin to giveing a level 1 Cloud KotR: he does not have enough MP to use it end of story: let me put this clear to everyone: Aerith (being of the Cetra) is the ONLY one who can use Holy there is no if's or buts this is fact and trying to say otherwise is like trying to say the Sun is made of ice: clearly not true, you can try to say oh but this and oh but that but it will never happen: the reason Aerith had to die and was a threat to Sephiroth was for the sole reason that only she (being of the Cetra) can summon Holy. Is that clear enough for you?

did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Game Script

Cloud: ...Aeris. Aeris has already prayed for Holy. ...After I gave up the Black Materia to Sephiroth...... Aeris' words came into my dreams... She said, she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth...... And to do that, there was a secret here... that was Holy...... That's why, she had the White Materia. Aeris knew about here... and what she had to do. Aeris has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future... I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word...... It was all so
sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.

Is that clear enough for you?
11-24-2006, 05:20 PM
Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by blitz_king10

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.

Stop insulting Wikipedia and deny the statement. You didn't deny it, because you know it's true. Your only defense is the claim that Wikipedia doesn't verify its articles, which it does. Try making a spam thread and see how long it lasts. Wikipedia clearly states that it uses, among other sources, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω, as evidence. Your arguments are easier to kill than Aeris.

Actually, Wiki isn't a good source because anyone can edit it, and it's hardly authoritative. And when the CANON disagrees, well, I chuckle even further at attempting to employ it.

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You're right, you never said Bugen was a Cetra. Therefore, you brought up a totally useless point, as only Cetra can use the White Materia. My mistake.

You have yet to prove your- Holy=Cetra only argument, by the by. It's also not useless, as it runs counter to your claim that only the Cetra may hear the planet.

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Repeat note regarding claiming Wikipedia is wrong, and not denying my statement because it's true. Please dig out your copy of FFVII (judging by your arguments, it hasn't been used in a long time), and try to equip the White Materia on somebody. What's that? You can't? Didn't think so. Also, if I remember correctly, you, Ryushikaze, said that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER. Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.

Need I repeat my statement about White Materia being unequippable, even by the mighty Cid?

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?

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*Sighs, and starts talking in the tone used to explain to a 4-year old fire is hot* Only Cetra can use Holy. Made-up words, like smeghead, make you look dumb.

Now, while I am just as for slinging insults in the middle of arguments as anyone, I do expect it to be attached to a point. Please, aside from Aerith, who is not infallible, and may in fact be lying as earlier in the game to try and keep her friends safe, please explain to me where your evidence that Cetra only can use their override/abort when anyone can use their kill 'em all weapon comes from, and how such a setup does NOT make them the stupidest people in existence?

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I know! I'll use your own quote against you!

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.

If Tifa gets deathblow, so does Aeris. So after she uses GG, she can use deathblow against Tifa. Bye-Bye Tifa!

Only not. Because Deathblow's chances of working on any weapon aside from the Godhand or one of the few other 255 ACC weapons (which Aerith is not privy to) is rather ridiculously low. It can also be linked to Sneak attack, if I'm not mistaken, starting battle with the 1hko.

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YES SHE WAS. SURELY IF ANYONE COULD DO IT, SHE WOULD'VE HAVE GONE ALONE?

Sure. She didn't want to put anyone else at risk. A noble, if stupid, sentiment.

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Very good. You managed to out-smart that person, if he or she even existed (I note you don't say who said it).

Well now, the ego flows freely.In case you didn't notice, Mr Game script also says anyone can use any Materia.

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Originally Posted by atlanteay

did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Game Script

Cloud: ...Aeris. Aeris has already prayed for Holy. ...After I gave up the Black Materia to Sephiroth...... Aeris' words came into my dreams... She said, she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth...... And to do that, there was a secret here... that was Holy...... That's why, she had the White Materia. Aeris knew about here... and what she had to do. Aeris has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future... I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word...... It was all so
sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.

Is that clear enough for you?

Nope. Please note that in the above quote, Cloud is only reporting what he heard from Aerith in a previous quote, and that she says she's the only one who can stop Sephiroth, not that she's the only one who can use Holy because it can only be used by the Cetra because it has the most arsed up racial limiter in existence on it.
11-24-2006, 05:20 PM
Crop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

At least she survived in the game.

Which reminds me. If Sephy killed Aeris that easly and quickly, why didnt he just do that to everyone?
11-24-2006, 05:22 PM
Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by crop

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Originally Posted by Dragon Mage

At least she survived in the game.

Which reminds me. If Sephy killed Aeris that easly and quickly, why didnt he just do that to everyone?

Because plot wise, Aerith is 'teh suck'? ::shrug:: good enough explanation as any, I suppose.
11-25-2006, 03:57 AM
Firo Volondé

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

Originally Posted by blitz_king10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Repeat after me: Wikipedia is not a source.

Stop insulting Wikipedia and deny the statement. You didn't deny it, because you know it's true. Your only defense is the claim that Wikipedia doesn't verify its articles, which it does. Try making a spam thread and see how long it lasts. Wikipedia clearly states that it uses, among other sources, Final Fantasy VII Ultimania Ω, as evidence. Your arguments are easier to kill than Aeris.

Actually, Wiki isn't a good source because anyone can edit it, and it's hardly authoritative. And when the CANON disagrees, well, I chuckle even further at attempting to employ it.

Wrong, my good sir. CANON agrees with Wikipedia. And still, you refuse to deny my original statement, about humans being the Cetra who stopped listening to the planet. Before you scoff at Wikipedia, please porvide some evidence as to why it's wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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You're right, you never said Bugen was a Cetra. Therefore, you brought up a totally useless point, as only Cetra can use the White Materia. My mistake.

You have yet to prove your- Holy=Cetra only argument, by the by. It's also not useless, as it runs counter to your claim that only the Cetra may hear the planet.

Bugenhagen studied the Planet for years in order to be able to hear the Planet. By the way, Holy only called one person in the whole game, and that was Aerith. And by a startling coincidence, Aerith is the only Cetra left. Why didn't it call to Bugenhagen?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Repeat note regarding claiming Wikipedia is wrong, and not denying my statement because it's true. Please dig out your copy of FFVII (judging by your arguments, it hasn't been used in a long time), and try to equip the White Materia on somebody. What's that? You can't? Didn't think so. Also, if I remember correctly, you, Ryushikaze, said that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Theoretically yes, though I'd give Cid a better chance than Barret. If a non cetra can use the horrendous kill 'em all weapon with just a little bit of study, it would only make sense that the override code could be activated similarly. Hell, I'd make it even EASIER. Every other Materia in existence has absolutely no racial limiter regarding its usage, merely the knowledge of its application, and this includes Meteor. That Holy is the sole exception does not follow.

Need I repeat my statement about White Materia being unequippable, even by the mighty Cid?

Do I have to repeat my request that you explain how it not being battle equippable means no one can use it? For the longest time, people claimed only Sephiroth could use Masamune, when the canon evidence of Tifa picking it up and swinging it at him is right in front of them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Game Script

Suddenly, Cloud saw Sephiroth kill two people with his Masamune. We watch a movie of Sephiroth walking away with flames all over the place. Cloud then proceeds to the Mako Reactor. He saw Tifa's father's dead.
Tifa: Papa... Sephiroth!? Sephiroth did this to you, didn't he!?
Sephiroth... SOLDIER... Mako Reactors... Shinra... Everything! I hate
them all!
Tifa took the Masamune and ran. As Cloud head to the reactor section...
Sephiroth: Mother, I'm here to see you. Please, open this door.
Tifa: How could you do that to papa and all the townspeople?
Tifa attempted to slash Sephiroth with the Masamune but Sephiroth took the sword from her and slashed her. Then Sephiroth went inside the room with Jenova. Cloud helped the wounded Tifa.

Masamune is a sword. Only Sephiroth could wield it meant he was the only one strong enough to actually use it effectively. Anyone could pick it up, but is would be too big to be useful. Just like anybody could hold the White Materia, but Aerith was the only one who could pray to the Planet and unlock Holy. Note that Sephiroth, unarmed, ambushed by Tifa, took the Masamune from Tifa without blinking. Furthermore, that whole sequence is based on Cloud's memories that Zack actually witnessed. It may not even be 100% accurate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Please, aside from Aerith, who is not infallible, and may in fact be lying as earlier in the game to try and keep her friends safe, please explain to me where your evidence that Cetra only can use their override/abort when anyone can use their kill 'em all weapon comes from, and how such a setup does NOT make them the stupidest people in existence?

The following evidence comes from the site http://au.faqs.ign.com/articles/698/698416p1.html. It was taken from a translation of the Ultimania guide. My thanks to you, Ryu Kaze.

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Originally Posted by FFVII Ultimania Omega Guide

**The White Materia: Holy** (005.3B)
The only means of opposing Meteor, the Ultimate White Magic was passed down amongst the Ancients. It is said that when an Ancient learns of Holy in the Forgotten Capital, prays at the water altar and their mind then links to the Planet, Holy is thereby put into operation. Passed down through the Ancients' generations, the White Materia came to Aerith from her mother, Ifalna, and she kept it hidden in a ribbon in her hair.

How exactly Holy applies its power once invoked and in operation is not
definite. It is simply known that "all that is bad for the Planet will
disappear."

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
As evidence of the Planet accepting Aerith's prayer, the White Materia laying on the water bed shines a pale green color. However, Holy's movement was being held back by the wicked will of Sephiroth, who had called Meteor.
------------------------
[Analysis: This section confirms what many who played the game believed: that Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to the City of the Ancients -- to which she felt herself being drawn -- and learned of it there, the same way that Bugenhagen later would.]
------------------------

Sephiroth, and only Sephiroth, could use Black Materia because he spent years in the Lifestream, and so gained all the knowledge of the Ancients. He would be able to use Holy as well, and Aerith could use Meteor, but why would they? There's your evidence. And for the record, it would not make Cetra stupid, but the Planet, since it created the White and Black Materia.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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I know! I'll use your own quote against you!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Well, if Aerith gets magic, why not Tifa? They both use materia to get it.

If Tifa gets deathblow, so does Aeris. So after she uses GG, she can use deathblow against Tifa. Bye-Bye Tifa!

Only not. Because Deathblow's chances of working on any weapon aside from the Godhand or one of the few other 255 ACC weapons (which Aerith is not privy to) is rather ridiculously low. It can also be linked to Sneak attack, if I'm not mistaken, starting battle with the 1hko.

The chance of Deathblow working may be low, but if she uses it many times, which she can thanks to GG, the chance of it working just once rises exponentially.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Quote:

YES SHE WAS. SURELY IF ANYONE COULD DO IT, SHE WOULD'VE HAVE GONE ALONE?

Sure. She didn't want to put anyone else at risk. A noble, if stupid, sentiment.

Wrong again. Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she only knew what the Planet was telling her.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Very good. You managed to out-smart that person, if he or she even existed (I note you don't say who said it).

Well now, the ego flows freely.In case you didn't notice, Mr Game script also says anyone can use any Materia.

Except for White and Black Materia. They are very different to normal Materia. Do some research.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

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Originally Posted by atlanteay

did Mr. Gamescript state clearly that Aerith, and only Aerith can in fact summon holy and no one else can summon it because it's a Cetra only thing? So far, i've only seen statements that only Aerith can protect the planet but that could mean that only she has the materia and not that only she can summon and no else could. Unless you can bring proof that clearly states Cetra=Summon Holy, Non-Cetra = can't summon holy, i'm afraid it's not clear to me enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Game Script

Cloud: ...Aeris. Aeris has already prayed for Holy. ...After I gave up the Black Materia to Sephiroth...... Aeris' words came into my dreams... She said, she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth...... And to do that, there was a secret here... that was Holy...... That's why, she had the White Materia. Aeris knew about here... and what she had to do. Aeris has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her future... I'm sorry... Aeris. I should have figured this out sooner. ...You left us without saying a word...... It was all so
sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.

Is that clear enough for you?

Nope. Please note that in the above quote, Cloud is only reporting what he heard from Aerith in a previous quote, and that she says she's the only one who can stop Sephiroth, not that she's the only one who can use Holy because it can only be used by the Cetra because it has the most arsed up racial limiter in existence on it.

Because Aerith knew nothing of Holy until she got to City of the Ancients, she said that because the White Materia, when calling to her, told her that. Aerith may not be infallible, but the Planet is.

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