The reasons why FFVII gamers can choose to ignore The Compilation if they wish

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This topic may contain sensitive info for those of you who believe The Compilation to be an unquestionable part of the Final Fantasy VII plot!

(SPOILER)Never did the lifestream become infected by Sephiroth’s death. Jenova cells are not stuck in the soul of the victim, but the body. After all, they have to be injected in order to operate. When someone in Final Fantasy VII dies it is their life energy that returns to the planet. Their body however, remains. This is one thing Dirge of Cerberus does wrong. In DoC, Grimoire Valentine’s body disappears, almost like in Final Fantasy X.

A few examples of what changes The Compilation have done to the original plot of Final Fantasy VII. Many Final Fantasy VII fans do not want to take The Compilation in consideration when discussing it. This is because they believe The Compilation to be retcon. Some of those who welcome The Compilation claim that if you use your imagination enough the prequels/sequels can fit perfectly into the original script. Others say that even if the prequels/sequels are retcon, they’re still there whether the Compilation Haters like it or not, because the new information is official.

So do The Compilation Haters have a significant reason to ignore the prequels/sequels even when taking them into consideration when discussing Final Fantasy VII? The ones accepting The Compilation often say that if you don’t like the prequels/sequels, stick with the original PSX/PC game and forget that The Compilation even exists.

With that said, what can a Compilation Hater come up with? Quite a lot actually, in this topic I’ll show every Final Fantasy VII gamer on the forum why you are free to ignore The Compilation entirely, even when considering it alongside the original game.

Just because the information is official do Compilation Haters have to stick with it? Do Compilation Haters have to forever be stuck in 1997, just pretending The Compilation don’t exist? The answers are, no and no. Just because a game has a title including "Final Fantasy VII" does that mean a guarantee plot change free prequel/sequel? The obvious answer here is of course, no.

First of all, it’s very obvious The Compilation’s very existence is based on Square Enix’s desire for profits. The first thing to notice is this:

Fantasy VII – Released January 31, 1997 (JPN)

Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis (the first instalment in The Compilation) – Released September 29, 2004 (JPN)

The Compilation was never intended in the first place and still people accept the prequels/sequels as part of the plot. And Square Enix don’t just provide fillers, they alter the original script, as I described earlier in this topic. Since The Compilation is indeed an official product, go ahead and enjoy it if you want. However, that doesn’t change the fact that the original Final Fantasy VII plot is different from The Compilation plot.

With that said I’ll finish this post with the words, yes people, we can choose to ignore Final Fantasy VII: Retcon Version, if we want, even if we consider The Compilation among the original game. After all, these prequels/sequels were never part of Final Fantasy VII in the first place.

I totally understand that, but I choose to embrace it all. Yes, you can use your imagination to bring it all together and it makes a much better story that way with all these different aspects.
But, of course, it's up to you.

i think a lot of the things that don't seem to fit properly can be attributed to the poor translation of the original FF VII, i'm sure if they redid it with a better translator, then things would make more sense, but unfortunatealy SE has NO plans of re-releasing VII as long as the original is still available, regardless everything in all the prequals and sequals is in fact cannon, and i think of it as a way of clearing things up that were misunderstood due to the bad translation of VII to begin with...

Now I doubt translation errors explain every new aspect of The Compilation considering the amount of changes done.

now i didn't say everything, i said a lot of things, still there's some unanswered questions and inconsistancies they may address later but that's up to S-E if they wanna straighten up those few things left undone / unanswered / unexplained, but it is a fantasy world after all that continues to grow and evolve, and in their world there may be a direct link to the soul and body, being one thing and not something seperate, notice how they just fade away like Jedi when they die, except for Aerith, but she's the exception to most of their rules...

If you don't want to accept it, fine. That makes it no less official. Deal with it.

True, however my point was that official do not necessarily mean 100 % correct. I do not accept retcon and so I ignore The Compilation when discussing FFVII. If you like The Compilation on the other hand then of course thats ok, I just wanted to point out that there are differences. Many people seem to miss out on that and so mix the two versions together. The results of that tend to get confusing at times. So thats why I found it useful to tell.

:)

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now i didn't say everything, i said a lot of things, still there's some unanswered questions and inconsistancies they may address later but that's up to S-E if they wanna straighten up those few things left undone / unanswered / unexplained, but it is a fantasy world after all that continues to grow and evolve, and in their world there may be a direct link to the soul and body, being one thing and not something seperate, notice how they just fade away like Jedi when they die, except for Aerith, but she's the exception to most of their rules...

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The story of Final Fantasy VII was a complex one, and many still believe much of the story to be undone/unanswered. But its not, in fact you can figure pretty much everything. I don't have many questions regarding the game left, if any at all. As one of my favourite games, FFVII have been spinning in my PSX for some time now. FFVII was never an unfinished game, it just left you with a bunch of hard to figure questions regarding things like Jenova, Vincent's past, lifestream etc. Like I said, The Compilation do not add fillers, Square Enix use these prequels/sequels to change the script in return for profits.

What's a compilation?

a compilation is a collection, in this case it's all the games, movie, anime, and novelas in the FF VII universe, being: Crisis Core (PSP), Meteorfall (original FF VII game - PSX/PSone), Last Order (Anime), The Maiden That Traveled the Planet (Novela), The Way to a Smile (Novela), Advent Children (CGI Movie), and Dirge of Cerberus (PS2), this list is also in order of events, not necessarily order of release, except "Last Order" which appears to be mostly a giant flashback sequence to the time before Meteorfall, from the time after the destruction of Midgar, hard to chronolize that one...

I keep telling people: the Compilation is an expanded universe. It's canon, but not on the same level of canonicity as the original game. Why? Because not one of them has been an RPG. Unlike FFX-2, they are not true sequels or prequels but spin-offs. The only way FF7 will ever have a true sequel will be if there is another RPG with the same elements of a normal Final Fantasy game. (And preferably entirely independent of the Compilation. It can rely on the Compilation as filler between the games, but the plot should be entirely understandable without it.)

I think the Compilation is okay for the most part. It's not great, and personally, I think Square handled it entirely wrong. But I still accept it as canonical. Secondary canon, though. And as much as I detest FFX-2 with every ounce of my being, I still respect it as a true sequel and accept it on the same level of canon as FFX. I'd do the same for a FF7-2, regardless of whether or not it's good.

The problem is when some people decide to ignore things like Ultimania Omega Guide and Reunion Files. These two books aren't prequels or sequels. They don't add any new plot or characters in the story(of FFVII and AC). They just give the answers to most of our questions. But Compilation Haters don't want to accept these answers. Why?

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Never did the lifestream become infected by Sephiroth’s death. Jenova cells are not stuck in the soul of the victim, but the body. After all, they have to be injected in order to operate. When someone in Final Fantasy VII dies it is their life energy that returns to the planet. Their body however, remains.

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An interesting theory about the true nature of Jenova, to anyone that want to read it:

http://forums.adventchildren.net/sho...t=Jenova+Chaos

To ignore the compilation would be the same as to do this.

A murder victam was found stabbed and had been stabbed in the side. The presumed Cause of death was the stab, however during the autopsy a deadly poison is found in his system, and presumably the poison had been in there long enough to kill him the day before his body was found. However, they still report Death by Stab wound, and ignore the fact he was poisoned. You are doing the same thing by rejecting future information and assuming it is false while the old information is true.

Yes, this example is extreme, but I work in extremes.

I embraced it, I just wasn't happy with the results. I want to embrace such titles as LO, CC, BC, but 1) I don't have the consoles to play them on 2) I have no idea where you can get LO legally. I wanted to find out more myself about VII. AC, came off as short. Eh..can't describe it with other words right now. DoC..seemed a bit uneeded. If Vincent was such an important character to have a game based on, why did they not include him in the main game itself? Would have been better that way.

._.

The Compilation was a complete success if you look at it from these two points of view:

All the fanboys that adored it finally shut their traps about more FF7 stuff coming out.

All those that hated it stopped gagging for more so Square-Enix could get on with some original projects.

Other than that, Charcoal, you've got it bang on.

On a personal note, I found that Advent Children in particular confirmed one thing for me: Jenova was the real villain, and Sephiroth was just being her bitch.

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I keep telling people: the Compilation is an expanded universe. It's canon, but not on the same level of canonicity as the original game. Why? Because not one of them has been an RPG. Unlike FFX-2, they are not true sequels or prequels but spin-offs. The only way FF7 will ever have a true sequel will be if there is another RPG with the same elements of a normal Final Fantasy game. (And preferably entirely independent of the Compilation. It can rely on the Compilation as filler between the games, but the plot should be entirely understandable without it.)

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Yes, they are best described as spin-offs. And yes it is an expanded universe of Final Fantasy VII. However, this expanded universe cannot be entirely canon when considering it alongside the 1997 Final Fantasy VII because there are notable differences between the two. Thats why they can't act as fillers between the games.

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The problem is when some people decide to ignore things like Ultimania Omega Guide and Reunion Files. These two books aren't prequels or sequels. They don't add any new plot or characters in the story(of FFVII and AC). They just give the answers to most of our questions. But Compilation Haters don't want to accept these answers. Why?

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As a Compilation Hater I'll answer your question. Advent Children also add twists to the FFVII plot; however those who accept The Compilation don't seem to notice that too often. This is probably due to Dirge of Cerberus' vast amount of retcon even when compared to the rest of The Compilation. I must admit, Advent Children look ace and it is fun to watch. But I like the original plot of FFVII more and so choose to put AC together with the rest of the spin-offs.

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To ignore the compilation would be the same as to do this.

A murder victam was found stabbed and had been stabbed in the side. The presumed Cause of death was the stab, however during the autopsy a deadly poison is found in his system, and presumably the poison had been in there long enough to kill him the day before his body was found. However, they still report Death by Stab wound, and ignore the fact he was poisoned. You are doing the same thing by rejecting future information and assuming it is false while the old information is true.

Yes, this example is extreme, but I work in extremes.

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I'm rejecting the future information because it is retcon. I presume the point of this example was that the poison did most of the work, yet the stab was what ended it? FFVII had a complex plot yes, but like I said earlier in this topic, most of the answers to the difficult questions are in the game. They are tough to locate though, because they're scattered among various pieces of text that apparently is no where near where they "should" be.

Btw, I would love to read the Jenova theory but it requires a password I don't have. I guess you brought it up because you believe my version here to be wrong? Well I'm always open for discussion :) .

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On a personal note, I found that Advent Children in particular confirmed one thing for me: Jenova was the real villain, and Sephiroth was just being her bitch.

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Despite the creators explicitly stating the opposite?

Charcoal, you can't simply ignore a retcon because you don't like it. That really is what this all boils down to. If the creators want to change their work, than it's changed. Same as with Star Wars and the Special Editions.

I don't ignore The Compilation like in "it does not exist". Because it does, The Compilation is official, Square Enix made it. What I mean is you can consider The Compilation an alternative to the original because there are too many things that don't fit between Final Fantasy VII and The Compilation of it. That is what I mean by "why we can ignore The Compilation if we wish". We can choose to abandon it because the original FFVII and The Compilation fit together like chicken and ice cream :p .

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

As a Compilation Hater I'll answer your question. Advent Children also add twists to the FFVII plot; however those who accept The Compilation don't seem to notice that too often. This is probably due to Dirge of Cerberus' vast amount of retcon even when compared to the rest of The Compilation. I must admit, Advent Children look ace and it is fun to watch. But I like the original plot of FFVII more and so choose to put AC together with the rest of the spin-offs.

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And what about the UOG? It exist only to explain what wasn't explained in the game. But Compilation Haters still ignore it, believing more in their own theories, than in the word of SE.
Example:

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Originally Posted by Psi

Jenova was the real villain, and Sephiroth was just being her bitch.

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Completely wrong, as proved by the UOG. But some people still ignore the book without any reason.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

As a Compilation Hater I'll answer your question. Advent Children also add twists to the FFVII plot; however those who accept The Compilation don't seem to notice that too often. This is probably due to Dirge of Cerberus' vast amount of retcon even when compared to the rest of The Compilation. I must admit, Advent Children look ace and it is fun to watch. But I like the original plot of FFVII more and so choose to put AC together with the rest of the spin-offs.

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And what about the UOG? It exist only to explain what wasn't explained in the game. But Compilation Haters still ignore it, believing more in their own theories, than in the word of SE.
Example:

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Originally Posted by Psi

Jenova was the real villain, and Sephiroth was just being her bitch.

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Completely wrong, as proved by the UOG. But some people still ignore the book without any reason.

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maby people like what they think better

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

With that said I’ll finish this post with the words, yes people, we can choose to ignore Final Fantasy VII: Retcon Version, if we want, even if we consider The Compilation among the original game. After all, these prequels/sequels were never part of Final Fantasy VII in the first place.

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Thank you.

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Originally Posted by aerisfantatic

maby people like what they think better

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Probably. And inside of their heads, they can belive in whatever they want. But going to a forum and stating their own opinions/interpretations as a fact, even when their theories are already proved wrong by SE itself, is ridiculous.
Is like when Ryushikaze was saying Sephiroth isn't the strongest in FFVII world, even after i showed a quote of Kitase that say he is the strongest. Or when Ryu said the Tainted Lifestream summoned by Sephiroth in the end of AC are just normal dark clouds, even after Kitase(or Nomura) already explained in an interview that the "clouds" are Tainted Lifestream.

The problem isn't with people that belive in their theories, but in people that try to convince us that their interpretations are the absolute truth, and that SE is wrong.

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And what about the UOG? It exist only to explain what wasn't explained in the game. But Compilation Haters still ignore it, believing more in their own theories, than in the word of SE.

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Square Enix haven't made a book explaining Final Fantasy VII; only Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children have been explained. So I've already explained why the UOG is ignored by the likes of me.

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maby people like what they think better

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In some cases, indeed. Certain theories prove that...

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The problem isn't with people that belive in their theories, but in people that try to convince us that their interpretations are the absolute truth, and that SE is wrong.

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If The Compilation is the same as Square Enix to you (regarding answers to the plot of course) then yes they are wrong, because The Compilation is retcon. Like Ryushikaze said, that doesn't make it less official. But that was the point of this topic in the first place, to show you that official by no means is a guarantee of canon.

Like I said, many believe parts of FFVII to be unsolvable. However, most of it makes perfect sense once you have played the game 20-30 times, written down all dialogue, tested different versions to see where they get shattered, and then finally, realising one version of your FFVII storylines make perfect sense.

It is a slow process and many players skip all this work, stick to one of their theories then begin entering discussions on forums. It is because of this difficulity of deciphering the storyline there are so many theories "out there", and that is also why people generally never agree with each other when a theory is presented.

Square Enix used this opportunity to make a Compilation of it all. They have made a fortune or two by doing so.

Charcoal, you(and other Compilation Haters) have to understand one thing. Even if your theories make sense to you, you guys don't have ANY authority to decide what is canon/official and what is not. SE created the games/movie/books, and ONLY them have controll over the story. They are the "gods" of FFVII universe, and anything they say is the truth. FFVII is THEIR story NOT yours.
Even if one or two things contradict each other, doesn't mean it isn't canon. Just means that is bad story-telling with some plot-holes.
SE created the FFVII series. They know more about it than you.

But i think that i understand why you(and other Compilation Haters) hate the Compilation so much. During many years, people analysed FFVII and created giant FAQs and theories about it. And wasted their time doing that. Then one day, SE say "Sorry, but you are wrong". After that, many people were pissed, because they wasted their time in giant and intelligent analyses, that were proved wrong by just a few words of SE. Because of this, many pissed people refused to agree with that, and decided that their well explained theories are better than the word of SE.
I understand that. I would be pissed too. But like i said before, the fans don't have authority over the FFVII universe to decide what is, and what isn't. This is the sad truth, and we have to deal with it.

Actually Crystal, I used the example to point something else out. They came to a conclusion, the Knife wound killed the victam. The evidence later showed that the poison would have killed him before the knife, therefore the knife wound had nothing to do with his death.

Just like people thinking something about FF VII, however future evidence, in this case Square saying so, stated otherwise.

This means regardless of what they think of the orginal story line, because of whats revealed by square later thats what it is. Just because it came up later doesn't make it any less true.

The Ultimania Omega guide (and other official Square Enix materials) and the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII is canon, whether you like it or not. It's really hard to take someone seriously (much less someone who enjoys creating bizarre theories) when they're actually ignoring established canon. There is no opinion on something in a fictional universe when the creators of the said universe have already declared something to be true or not (or to be a certain way).

True. I don't work for Square Enix and so I have no authority to decide what's canon or not. However I don't consider retcon FFVII canon (the reason should be obvious). I don't claim retcon is necessarily a bad thing, if a story needs some improvements, retcon might be what restoring it. FFVII however never needed such treatment, only reason FFVII ever got retcon in it is because Square Enix reel in on that. It is official yes, and so it is a new version of the FFVII story. I wanted to point out that there is a previous version of FFVII too. This version isn't official anymore, no. But that makes it no less existent.

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i think that i understand why you(and other Compilation Haters) hate the Compilation so much. During many years, people analysed FFVII and created giant FAQs and theories about it. And wasted their time doing that. Then one day, SE say "Sorry, but you are wrong". After that, many people were pissed, because they wasted their time in giant and intelligent analyses, that were proved wrong by just a few words of SE. Because of this, many pissed people refused to agree with that, and decided that their well explained theories are better than the word of SE.

I understand that. I would be pissed too. But like i said before, the fans don't have authority over the FFVII universe to decide what is, and what isn't. This is the sad truth, and we have to deal with it.

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You might very well be right regarding much of that The Crystal. The reason I hate The Compilation though, isn't this. I hate The Compilation because it might affect how a remake of the game is going to look like. A remake of Final Fantasy VII for the PS3 (or possibly the "PS4") is the game on top of my "Most Wanted" list atm, and it has been there for quite some time now. If The Compilation makes its way into a FFVII remake I'll be really disappointed :( .

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

True. I don't work for Square Enix and so I have no authority to decide what's canon or not. However I don't consider retcon FFVII canon (the reason should be obvious).

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Retcons are canon by default. The SW:SE retcons are canon, for example. Also, congratulations for completely destroying your point. You don't work for SE, and, as such, have no say in what is or is not canon.

What you now MEAN to say is that the compilation is not in your personal FANON.

Dammit will you stop saying "The Crystal" every time you refer to him. I know thats his name, but damn thats annoying.

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Retcons are canon by default. The SW:SE retcons are canon, for example. Also, congratulations for completely destroying your point. You don't work for SE, and, as such, have no say in what is or is not canon.

What you now MEAN to say is that the compilation is not in your personal FANON.

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Retcon can't be canon by default, it speaks for itself. I don't have any say in what is canon or not because I don't work for Square Enix, and so I can't give you any official information. That doesn't mean I have ruined my point, which is official are not always equal to canon. It means I can't tell you this from an official source and because of that you have to make up your own opinion in deciding whether to consider The Compilation canon or not, that's the whole point of the topic.

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Dammit will you stop saying "The Crystal" every time you refer to him. I know thats his name, but damn thats annoying.

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Then I suggest The Crystal himself tell me that so I can call him Crystal if he think that sounds better :) . Or should I start calling you Cracker :p ? Maybe I can be Coal :tongue: ?

i liked the first sequal (ac), but some of the prequals (last order) controdict a game that wasn[t really meant to have any prequals in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Retcon can't be canon by default, it speaks for itself.

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Just saying the opposite of what I say does not make it so.

The very nature of "canon" and "retcon" mean that any of the latter automatically are included in the former. When a creator makes a change to what they make, it's official. It overrides what came before.

You can ignore these changes, but it DOES NOT remove them from the canon. Only the creators get to decide what is and is not canon. You have no say in this, at all, and according to SE, the compilation IS canon.

I repeat again, what you WANT to say is that the compilation is not included in your personal fanon.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

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Retcons are canon by default. The SW:SE retcons are canon, for example. Also, congratulations for completely destroying your point. You don't work for SE, and, as such, have no say in what is or is not canon.

What you now MEAN to say is that the compilation is not in your personal FANON.

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Retcon can't be canon by default, it speaks for itself. I don't have any say in what is canon or not because I don't work for Square Enix, and so I can't give you any official information. That doesn't mean I have ruined my point, which is official are not always equal to canon. It means I can't tell you this from an official source and because of that you have to make up your own opinion in deciding whether to consider The Compilation canon or not, that's the whole point of the topic.

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Dammit will you stop saying "The Crystal" every time you refer to him. I know thats his name, but damn thats annoying.

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Then I suggest The Crystal himself tell me that so I can call him Crystal if he think that sounds better :) . Or should I start calling you Cracker :p ? Maybe I can be Coal :tongue: ?

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You're a littly behind the times my friend. No one calls people by their full names here. So yes, call me cracker like all the others. And The Crystal Crystal And I'm my own milf either milf or milfy, Loony_BoB Bob, Fire_of_Avalon FoA, That dude with they Ryu in front of his name Ryu, nic0tine nic, Goldenboco boco, and others I may or may not update later.

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Just saying the opposite of what I say does not make it so.

The very nature of "canon" and "retcon" mean that any of the latter automatically are included in the former. When a creator makes a change to what they make, it's official. It overrides what came before.

You can ignore these changes, but it DOES NOT remove them from the canon. Only the creators get to decide what is and is not canon. You have no say in this, at all, and according to SE, the compilation IS canon.

I repeat again, what you WANT to say is that the compilation is not included in your personal fanon.

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Like I've said earlier:

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I don't claim retcon is necessarily a bad thing, if a story needs some improvements, retcon might be what restoring it. FFVII however never needed such treatment, only reason FFVII ever got retcon in it is because Square Enix reel in on that.

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Some stories handle it better then others I guess. And judging by how many mistakes SE have made in The Compilation (like how characters suddenly disappear FFX style) FFVII is obviously only been redone because SE want to make some quick money.

And like I've said on several occations, The Compilation is official and commonly considered canon. However there was a previous version of FFVII of this and it remains whether official (anymore) or not. The Compilation is only there to reel in the cash and so, because of all the differences, it can't be considered canon when comparing it to the 1997 story.

And thats why people have to decide for themselves whether to consider The Compilation canon or not - again the point of the topic.

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You're a littly behind the times my friend. No one calls people by their full names here. So yes, call me cracker like all the others. And The Crystal Crystal And I'm my own milf either milf or milfy, Loony_BoB Bob, Fire_of_Avalon FoA, That dude with they Ryu in front of his name Ryu, nic0tine nic, Goldenboco boco, and others I may or may not update later.

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If it's that annoying then ok, I'll stick to using half the name :) .

And Again, I call your reasons BS. You have no right to decide what is and is not canon. That's SE's perogative, not yours. Even if new installments are just there to draw in the cash (of course, so was the original. The point is to sell a product, after all), SE putting out new products already includes them into the canon until they say otherwise. This includes any and all retcons.

FANON. This is the term you need to familiarize yourself with. FANON.

And your one example of the "errors" in the game isn't an error. Kadaj was shinentai. It makes sense for him to burst into lifestream as he loses cohesion.

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And Again, I call your reasons BS. You have no right to decide what is and is not canon. That's SE's perogative, not yours. Even if new installments are just there to draw in the cash (of course, so was the original. The point is to sell a product, after all), SE putting out new products already includes them into the canon until they say otherwise. This includes any and all retcons.

FANON. This is the term you need to familiarize yourself with. FANON.

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I know I can't decide anything (like I mentioned, I don't work for SE). My point is,

The Compilation is indeed canon, it is made by Square Enix and therefore it is an official product.

However, retcon do not suit FFVII for reasons I have pointed out several times by now, and so some people separate FFVII into two different versions.

There is a FFVII prior to The Compilation and because of the obvious differences, The Compilation can't be canon when considered alongside the original game. That's why people have a choice whether to consider The Compilation canon or not. That isn't fanon. It would be fanon if I removed The Compilation and told you it didn't exist. I say we have a choice.

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And your one example of the "errors" in the game isn't an error. Kadaj was shinentai. It makes sense for him to burst into lifestream as he loses cohesion.

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The case with Kadaj is widely different from the case of Grimoire Valentine, don't you think?

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

I know I can't decide anything (like I mentioned, I don't work for SE). My point is,

The Compilation is indeed canon, it is made by Square Enix and therefore it is an official product.

However, retcon do not suit FFVII for reasons I have pointed out several times by now, and so some people separate FFVII into two different versions.

There is a FFVII prior to The Compilation and because of the obvious differences, The Compilation can't be canon when considered alongside the original game. That's why people have a choice whether to consider The Compilation canon or not. That isn't fanon. It would be fanon if I removed The Compilation and told you it didn't exist. I say we have a choice.

The case with Kadaj is widely different from the case of Grimoire Valentine, don't you think?

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A retcon is when the creators say "What you remember of that scene, never happened. This is what truly happened in that part of the story". And we don't have any choice but accept it. I mean, if the creators could erase our memory of the original scene they would do that, because this is what they want. They want us to completely forget the original scene, and only accept the new one. This is what a retcon is.

Now, saying that Cloud threw Sephiroth in the Mako, is the same thing as saying that Cloud jumped in it, because both of these scenes never happened in canon. What you have to do now, is forget the old scenes because they don't exist anymore. Of course that you can belive in them, inside of your head, but bringing them to a forum like they are facts, is not a good idea anymore.
Just... Forget them.

And don't argue with Ryushikaze. The guy don't have any moral to accuse you of ignoring the facts, when he do the exact same thing.

The original FF7 was made just to generate profit. What were your other arguments, again?

The corrections and clarifications of the original plot that were mentioned in the compilation aren't opinions, they are facts.

You could compare it to God coming down to us and telling us which parts of the Bible are bullcrap and which aren't (or better yet, how the world actually works). In the FF7 universe, S-E is God.

Some of you give me the impression of being "blinded" because you don't see how The Compilation - an official product of Square Enix - can be wrong. I've stated many times now how FFVII is separated in two different versions, one official and one canon.

To put it another way, there are two types of "canon" here. Those who accept The Compilation, if that is what you prefer, then good, The Compilation is official and thereby canon based on that but nothing more. And if you don't accept The Compilation, the 1997 FFVII isn't erased because The Compilation is around, the game was never unfinished, it was a complete story on it's own.

So it depends on how you see it.

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The original FF7 was made just to generate profit. What were your other arguments, again?

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... are some of you REALLY having trouble finding meaning in that argument? Well if so - SE is milking the whole thing, get it :p ?

It would be great if you were right, but you aren't. That's not meant as a joke or sarcasm either.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

It would be great if you were right, but you aren't. That's not meant as a joke or sarcasm either.

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Alright but why :) ?

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To put it another way, there are two types of "canon" here. Those who accept The Compilation, if that is what you prefer, then good, The Compilation is official and thereby canon based on that but nothing more. And if you don't accept The Compilation, the 1997 FFVII isn't erased because The Compilation is around, the game was never unfinished, it was a complete story on it's own.

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I don't understand this. There is only one canon, and that is the canon that SE has established.

Because, as I said, S-E is in full control over what has happened, happens, and will happen in the FF7 universe. As I said, they're Gods there.

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I don't understand this. There is only one canon, and that is the canon that SE has established.

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Then I'll try explaining it further :) .

The Compilation SE established is canon because it is official. However, it's also retcon. The problem with that is FFVII was a finished story already. It was tough to decipher and so SE used the opportunity to milk the whole concept. If you like The Compilation, then stick with that. After all it is official and so, canon based on that. However if you want a FFVII without the retcon and plot holes you don't need to accept The Compilation, because FFVII was never unfinished. The Compilation was never part of FFVII in the first place; it's just there to reel in, nothing more.

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Because, as I said, S-E is in full control over what has happened, happens, and will happen in the FF7 universe. As I said, they're Gods there.

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Yes they are the gods of the FFVII universe. They can't redo every copy of FFVII they have released however (maybe not 100 % Gods then :jokey: ?), and so we still got the original plot in addition to The Compilation plot. So every player can decide for themselves what FFVII they wanna stick to :D .

They can't redo every copy because they aren't gods of our universe. If FF7 was a PC game, they would probably have released a translation patch though. In the compilation they're correcting things that weren't properly translated or portrayed in the original game, and specifying particular "dodgy" events in the main game.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

I know I can't decide anything (like I mentioned, I don't work for SE).

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CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

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My point is,

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No. You have already invalidated your argument. STOP TALKING.

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The Compilation is indeed canon, it is made by Square Enix and therefore it is an official product.

However, retcon do not suit FFVII for reasons I have pointed out several times by now, and so some people separate FFVII into two different versions.

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Which they cannot do, not being SE, and thus not having the power to do.

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There is a FFVII prior to The Compilation and because of the obvious differences, The Compilation can't be canon when considered alongside the original game.

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YES IT CAN.

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That's why people have a choice whether to consider The Compilation canon or not. That isn't fanon. It would be fanon if I removed The Compilation and told you it didn't exist. I say we have a choice.

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No. Fanon is you saying there is a choice. THERE ISN'T.

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The case with Kadaj is widely different from the case of Grimoire Valentine, don't you think?

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And since their cases are different, one should not expect their situations to be perfectly alike.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

And don't argue with Ryushikaze. The guy don't have any moral to accuse you of ignoring the facts, when he do the exact same thing.

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Oh, get over yourself and your Sephiwank. He has never demonstrated the powers you claim he had, and if he had the powers you claim he had, he would have never needed to do the things he did.

In other words, by insisting that Sephy can do what you claim he can do, you turn the man into A COMPLETE MORON by the fact that he doesn't use them.
Oh, and Kuja destroyed Terra. He's in the process thereof and the party echoes that he did as they leave.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

The Compilation SE established is canon because it is official. However, it's also retcon. The problem with that is FFVII was a finished story already.

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So was Star Wars Episode IV. Lucas still retconned it. We don't get to decide which version of 4 is the "one true version". George says "This one is", and we have to go "Okay, then...".

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It was tough to decipher and so SE used the opportunity to milk the whole concept.

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They are a for profit company.

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If you like The Compilation, then stick with that. After all it is official and so, canon based on that. However if you want a FFVII without the retcon and plot holes you don't need to accept The Compilation, because FFVII was never unfinished.

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Argument boiled down to simple statements: Because FF7 was complete, you don't have to accept the compilation. This is a non sequitor.

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The Compilation was never part of FFVII in the first place; it's just there to reel in, nothing more.

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The purpose of FFVII was to reel in money. SE sells us a product. That's expected.

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Yes they are the gods of the FFVII universe. They can't redo every copy of FFVII they have released however (maybe not 100 % Gods then :jokey: ?), and so we still got the original plot in addition to The Compilation plot. So every player can decide for themselves what FFVII they wanna stick to :D .

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But this does NOT mean that they can decide what is and is not part of the story. You can ignore all sorts of the story and make up random crap like Cloud and Aerith having spirit sex on the side of the highway. People do. However, and this is the important part, THIS HAS NO BEARING ON THE CANON. These people have created their own FANON, and that's what you've been blathering on about for two pages now.

Like I said, some people are blinded because they can't handle more then one type of canon - the official one. Honestly, I don't know why I bother discussing this with you anymore. If Square Enix announced something stupid like "Final Fantasy VII: Drunken Party at The Gold Saucer Edition" is up next, you would have considered in canon because it was official (judging by your posts). Still, I'll try one more time...

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CONCESSION ACCEPTED.

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Well I can't decide anything no, because I don't work for SE and so I can't provide you with any official information. Does that mean people can't see anything for themselves these days?

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No. You have already invalidated your argument. STOP TALKING.

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You don't get the point alright.

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Which they cannot do, not being SE, and thus not having the power to do.

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You don't have to be SE in order to contribute with some information based on common sense.

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YES IT CAN.

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NO IT CAN'T. I'll even tell you why. THERE ARE PLOT HOLES IN THERE.

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No. Fanon is you saying there is a choice. THERE ISN'T.

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At least make an attempt at getting my point before adding an answer to that quote.

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And since their cases are different, one should not expect their situations to be perfectly alike.

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I haven't said that either.

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So was Star Wars Episode IV. Lucas still retconned it. We don't get to decide which version of 4 is the "one true version". George says "This one is", and we have to go "Okay, then...".

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Since i don't know anything about Star Wars, I don't know how that went.

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They are a for profit company.

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Yes.

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Argument boiled down to simple statements: Because FF7 was complete, you don't have to accept the compilation. This is a non sequitor.

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Yeah right :eep: . Like if I haven't presented you with numerous arguments already. This is a quick way of explaining it, it goes together with my other arguments.

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The purpose of FFVII was to reel in money. SE sells us a product. That's expected.

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I referred to the fact that they are milking the concept. I've already answered this question so why do I get this feeling you haven't read my posts too well :rolleyes2 ?

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But this does NOT mean that they can decide what is and is not part of the story. You can ignore all sorts of the story and make up random crap like Cloud and Aerith having spirit sex on the side of the highway. People do. However, and this is the important part, THIS HAS NO BEARING ON THE CANON. These people have created their own FANON, and that's what you've been blathering on about for two pages now.

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There are a lot of fanon out there, yes. However I've already told you several times why this isn't. You just don't notice because you don't think there is the slightest possibility of official being wrong. And in one way that's true. The Compilation is canon because it's official. Still, try catching my point and see there are two versions of FFVII, even if SE don't say so. After all, they haven't denied it either. You don't have to be Einstein to tell, you just don't notice because like I said, some go blind when facing this kind of information :tongue: .

I haven't forgotten you Mirage :p !

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In the compilation they're correcting things that weren't properly translated or portrayed in the original game, and specifying particular "dodgy" events in the main game.

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Unfortunately they don't. Like I stated in my first post SE don't just add fillers, they alter the original script. They're providing us with retcon in other words.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Like I said, some people are blinded because they can't handle more then one type of canon - the official one.

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That's the only type of canon there IS. That's the entire point of the term.

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Honestly, I don't know why I bother discussing this with you anymore. If Square Enix announced something stupid like "Final Fantasy VII: Drunken Party at The Gold Saucer Edition" is up next, you would have considered in canon because it was official (judging by your posts).

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If it was part of the overall continuity of FF7, then yes, it would be within the canon. I wouldn't necessarily like it being there, but my whim, nor your whim, cannot change what is in the canon.

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Still, I'll try one more time...

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Try all you like. The fact of the matter is that by the nature of what a 'canon' is, all retcons SE makes are part of the canon.

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Well I can't decide anything no, because I don't work for SE and so I can't provide you with any official information. Does that mean people can't see anything for themselves these days?

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No. But this isn't something you can 'see for yourself'. The canon is an official fiat handed down from the creators.

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You don't get the point alright.

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No. I GET the point. Your point is invalid.

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You don't have to be SE in order to contribute with some information based on common sense.

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Actually, you do have to be SE to contribute to FF7's canon. Now, if you mean "You don't have to be SE to comprehend and elucidate information based on common sense", then I would agree. This is, however, irrelevant to the topic at hand, as canon is not something you piece together.

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NO IT CAN'T. I'll even tell you why. THERE ARE PLOT HOLES IN THERE.

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Then stop smegging telling me that there are plot holes and TELL ME WHAT THESE GORRAM PLOT HOLES ARE! Most of the smegging plot holes people crow about are nothing more than strawmen! So PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

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At least make an attempt at getting my point before adding an answer to that quote.

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I get your point. My point, however, is that the entirety of what you propose is fanon.

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I haven't said that either.

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Then explain the point of bringing it up.

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Since i don't know anything about Star Wars, I don't know how that went.

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Changes to an existing work were made. The movie was changed. There is still only one canon.

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Yes.

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Meaning that everything they produce is there to rake in money. Including FF7.

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Yeah right :eep: . Like if I haven't presented you with numerous arguments already. This is a quick way of explaining it, it goes together with my other arguments.

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But none of your arguments have been substantiated yet.

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I referred to the fact that they are milking the concept. I've already answered this question so why do I get this feeling you haven't read my posts too well :rolleyes2 ?

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Because I know you haven't been reading mine, or at the very least taking the time to understand what I've been saying.

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There are a lot of fanon out there, yes. However I've already told you several times why this isn't.

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No, you've explained several times why this isn't a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. of fanon. You've never told me why it isn't what fanon actually means.

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You just don't notice because you don't think there is the slightest possibility of official being wrong.

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A really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking..

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And in one way that's true. The Compilation is canon because it's official. Still, try catching my point and see there are two versions of FFVII, even if SE don't say so.

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No. There is only one version of FF7. Anything that has been retconned has been PRUNED. It NO LONGER MATTERS. If George Lucas released a new version of Star Wars where the Death Star Exploded into billions of fish, stupid as that is, it would be canon. The previous versions would be as if they had never existed! It's the same with FF7!

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After all, they haven't denied it either. You don't have to be Einstein to tell, you just don't notice because like I said, some go blind when facing this kind of information :tongue: .

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"Because SE hasn't said 'there aren't two versions of the story' there are two canons". Errrr, no.

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Unfortunately they don't. Like I stated in my first post SE don't just add fillers, they alter the original script. They're providing us with retcon in other words.

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Which in no way changes the fact that said changes are canon.

People, when we see events playing out differently (such as Last Order's depiction of the Nibelbeim incidents as opposed to the original game's), these should be understood less as retcons and more as different depictions, or interpretations, either told from different points of view or expanded upon. Naturally, some things will be different. Retcons, however, are those major changes to the story. But things like Tifa discovering her father outside of the reactor rather than inside, Cloud stabbing Sephiroth before he turns around rather than after, Cloud being impaled twice, and Sephiroth willingly jumping into the Lifestream rather than being tossed in: these things are extremely subtle differences in narration rather than retcons.

And Han shot first, damnit! (Pretty much everything else I'm okay with.)

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I haven't forgotten you Mirage :p !

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OOC:	Sorry, I don't quite follow...

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Originally Posted by Mirage

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I haven't forgotten you Mirage :p !

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OOC:	Sorry, I don't quite follow...

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That was something from Charcoal. I's gonna edit it out.

Alright Ryu, you've made it clear. There is no point in discussing the matter with you. You don't believe there to be any alternative. You think there is only one canon - the official canon, and nothing I say can change your mind regarding that. We can go on until Armageddon shows up and still be at the same spot because we'll never agree on one thing - can there be more then one canon? So I'll leave the decision whether to consider The Compilation part of FFVII or not to the other readers of the topic.

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Then explain the point of bringing it up.

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Kadaj's disappearance makes sense but Grimoire Valentine's don't. Grimoire can't just suddenly disappear like that because he is a regular person. When they die, they remain. At least in the original they do. Say hello to one plot hole, there are plenty others. Of course if I put more examples up you won't believe them since they're part of The Compilation, which in your opinion is canon whether nothing but unnecessarily retcon or not.

And btw,

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"Because SE hasn't said 'there aren't two versions of the story' there are two canons". Errrr, no.

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I can't tell anyone that from any official source no, but can't people see for themselves?

First off, I actually agree with Darth. *Twitcht*

SEcond, Coal, Grimoire dissapearing, while I haven't played the game yet, Was likely for Dramatic effect. Many games things like this happen for no reason, for Dramatic effect. If it actually said his body returned to the life stream, I believe that is the extent of it.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Alright Ryu, you've made it clear. There is no point in discussing the matter with you. You don't believe there to be any alternative. You think there is only one canon - the official canon, and nothing I say can change your mind regarding that. We can go on until Armageddon shows up and still be at the same spot because we'll never agree on one thing - can there be more then one canon? So I'll leave the decision whether to consider The Compilation part of FFVII or not to the other readers of the topic.

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That's because he is right.

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Grimoire dissapearing, while I haven't played the game yet, Was likely for Dramatic effect. Many games things like this happen for no reason, for Dramatic effect. If it actually said his body returned to the life stream, I believe that is the extent of it.

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Probably. Still, was a bit of dramatic effect worth making a plot hole for :p ? Besides, in FFVII corpses fade - and so return to the lifestream - slowly over time. They don't just suddenly disappear like in FFX. Their spirit energy disppears yes, but not the carcass.

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That's because he is right.

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Since neither Ryu nor I can provide you with any proof of what we say you'll just have to make up your own opinion. If you think I'm wrong, then be it, everyone got to make up their own opinion some times and not believe in everything they're told :) .

let me try to apply some of charcoals reasoning into some examples outside of "Star Wars"... by his logic anything added to or ammended to a previous writing should be discarded or ignored as false and/or useless, as the original was good enough... let's apply this to law, as a US citizen i'll use our Bill of Rights as an example, by his logic all the ammendments to the Bill of Rights should not be followed or observed since they were added after the original draft, so by this logic all non-WMA's (White Mlae Americans) have no rights, i personaly don't like this outcome and prefer it ammended... now lets apply this to religion, basic christianity, the New Testament should be ignored because it was written after the Old Testament and even goes against and contradicts some things written in the Old Testament, once again i don't like this outcome, i'd prefer to believe God is Love rather than God is Vengance... now from this perspective i find it hard to believe that anyone would want to change things that were changed for the better, or to clarify things, back to their original state, regression in other words, it makes no sense... and Darth A. did make a valid point that i was thinking over myself earlier, these stories (FF VII Compilation) are told from different characters POV, if you and i told the same story to the same person at different times i'm positive there will be differances in the stories, as there are 3 sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth, of course the more storytellers you add the more differances in their stories you will notice...

Let me quote myself:

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I don't claim retcon is necessarily a bad thing, if a story needs some improvements, retcon might be what restoring it. FFVII however never needed such treatment, only reason FFVII ever got retcon in it is because Square Enix reel in on that.

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FFVII has only become retcon because the whole concept is being milked. Some of us would prefer that not happening, and yes, in most cases that would result in fanon. My arguments are not fanon though, because they don't remove The Compilation. The point I'm trying to describe here is although The Compilation has arrived, that doesn't erase the original game and so there are two versions of FFVII. Whether this is true or not you'll have to decide for yourself because this information isn't official. That doesn't mean you can't try to see for yourself however. You have to make up your own opinion, because there don't exist any proof on either case.

so let me see if i'm understanding this, in essence you are boycotting the Compilation because, you think S-E has no right to make money off of their own license, because you thaught the story was over and complete when you finished the "Meteorfall" portion of the story... the "Metoeorfall chapter" was indeed finished but the story was far from complete as that chapter was told mostly from Clouds point of view, there are other characters as well you know, it's not all just Cloud and god forbid we hear the versions told by Aerith & Zack, Tiffa, Barret, & Denzil, or even Vincent, Reeve, or Tseng... is that what you're getting at? you only want to see it from one point of view and damn any other characters perspective on the issue? not to mention the events that happen 2&3 years after Meteorfall, those don't exist either as S-E has no right to use their own liscense to try to entertain you again, conversly making money in the process, cuz we all know companies exist to serve our whims and not make a dime in the meantime...

I know different characters have different perspectives. The Compilation isn't only based on those though and so mistakes are made. I don't boycott The Compilation because FFVII didn't need any; I ignore it due to us having a choice. Why that is I've explained several times already. There is no proof on either side and so people have to make up their own opinion.

I get the feeling I'm about to get very repetative due to that something is always forgotten >.<...

About Grimoire dissapearing, his dead wasn't normal. He was "poisoned" by Stagnant Lifestream(SL). We still don't know what SL exactly is, so SE can create an explanation(in CC or "DoC-2") of why SL make people dissapear. This is not a plot-hole.
And remember that Nero can use it to make people "dissapear"(send them to another dimension).

And miraculously enough we never heard anything about this SL in the original game *cough*plothole*cough*. In FFVII people can't just disappear like that. Unless you accept the retcon that is. And normally you have to do that, but not in this case. Again I (quickly) repeat the reasons why, FFVII has only been made retcon due to milking, SE has never denied that there may be two versions of FFVII because of the plot holes and FFVII was a finished story where nothing needed further explaining. Again there is no proof of either case and so every FFVII player have to decide for themselves, again the point of the topic.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

And miraculously enough we never heard anything about this SL in the original game *cough*plothole*cough*.

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You really don't know what are you talking about, do you? We don't hear about SL in FFVII for a reason. It is explained in DoC, play the game and you will know. It's not a plot-hole.

I've played the game and the reason we don't hear about it in FFVII is because SE - who is milking the whole concept - want to add all kinds of stupid twists that has got nothing to do with FFVII, Deepground and Omega Weapon being another two examples.

SL was not mentioned in the original because it was not relevant at the time, besides it is a new concept by S-E, to further points of the series... as time passes people learn grow and obtain knowledge of their surroundings making new discoveries all the time, are you saying that these characters should not evolve and learn more about their world (or rather we learn more about their world conversely), that their science, technology, and understanding should be at a constant flatline in the evolutionary paradigm, do we not now know things that humans did not know 20, 30, 50, even 100 years ago? what you're saying is ludacrise, for if they stay at an evolutionary plateau then the story dies, and that is not what the fans want, no one (normaly no one) want's their favorite story to end and if it does they almost always want another story set in that same world possibly even with the characters they know and love... just because it wasn't explained in the past does not make it irrelavant in the present, if that was the case humanity would have ceased to exist aeons ago...

Maybe Charcoal expects our random collection of heroes in the original game to have complete knowledge about the world they live in.

It isn't (necessarily) relevant now either, the prequels/sequels were never part of FFVII in the first place. This is only something they've made up along the way and it causes plot holes. It is nothing but annoying, adding new characters and twists just to sell.

Is it just me here who can see that adding new characters and concepts into an already finished story is completely unnecessarily? Does no one else realize that SE is just using the opportunity here? Fine, they're supposed to make money that's their whole point, FFVII was made for that reason too, but haven't anyone noticed that these spin-offs are just here in order to milk the whole concept? I've said that several times now, but nobody seem to notice. I'll repeat another thing that seems to have passed people by here:

There is a HUGE gap between the release of FFVII and The Compilation.

SL is not there to further anything. SL is there to add some depth into a dull add-on based on FFVII fans' opinions (regarding Vincent in this case). Nothing in The Compilation is further explained it's being expanded but also altered.

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Maybe Charcoal expects our random collection of heroes in the original game to have complete knowledge about the world they live in.

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No I don't. Us who play the game will eventually be able to understand most of it though, as long as you avoid certain obstacles.

sure, you have the right to ignore the compilation outside of the Meteorfall chapter if you wish, as much as i have the right to ignore the law and break into someone's house (not advocating Burglary here), but you can not deny that which is canon when talking with others about the overall story, when someone mentions something out of the compilation you can't say it didn't exist just because you choose to ignore it, fact is only S-E decides what is canon, you can choose to ignore it if you wish, but ignoring it will not make it go away, and all your trite reasoning can not change it... the compilation is a product of supply and demand, fans demanded more of the FF VII Universe and S-E graciousely supplied it, they're trying to entertain you and you're like the guy that questions the commedian on every angel of the joke thus killing said joke. thus ruining the entertainment value by being over-analytical, sure S-E is making a fortune off of FF VII right now, hell they made a fortune off of the FF Series alone before VII, but wait that's what companies do, they make money off of other people, wow what a concept... as for the FF VII Universe being expanded and altered, that's the nature of an expanded universe, Knights of the Old Republic is part of the Star Wars Expanded Universe, but it is no less canon due to it not being part of the original trillogy, it is valid within the SW Timeline, just as the compilation is valid within the FF VII Timeline...

You seem to have forgotten one thing, I don't say The Compilation isn't canon, I'm just saying there are two versions of FFVII and so I can ignore The Compilation because when considered alongside the 1997 FFVII it can't possibly be canon. Yes you're right about it not going away if I do that, but I don't say it does disappear either. I say we can choose between two versions, get it? That does NOT make The Compilation go away, it means it's an alternative.

Like I mentioned earlier in the topic, I keep repeating myself because something always is forgotten. Maybe I've handled this wrong. I might have scattered my arguments too much. If there is any more confusion I'll try to collect all my arguments and present them as tidy as possible, maybe that'll clear some things up.

there isn't 2 versions, it's not possible for there to be unless you ignore the compilation and thus deny it's existance, but then that would make it only 1 version again, so that won't work, maybe if there was another game that was named FF VII but was not made by Square or S-E and not directly linked to the FF VII Compilation (S-E would have a field day in the courtroom over that one), then your argument about 2 stories existing may be valid but as it stands it is not... and i never forgot your arguments i just omit them because you keep contradicting yourself, your underlined statement above is a contradiction of itself (it's canon but against the original it can't be canon... contradiction much?)... in order for FF VII (1997) and the rest of the compilation to be 2 seperate stories would imply that all the compilation minus the 1997 game, and the original 1997 game itself to have nothing in common with each other, but as i see it the original game and the compilation all take place in the world of FF VII, they include the same locations, the same people, the same history, the same technology (less Mako and more Oil and other fuels now though), the only differance is that there is more of it (the FF VII Universe) now than there was in 1997... now you are entitled to ignore it but as long as you do your opinion on the mater of the FF VII Universe will always be invalid, when it comes to conversation with those that accept it for what it is and don't try to over-analyze it, and disect the pieces of the story... i've been playing the MYST series of games and in it the word D'Ni is pronounced in about six different ways, which one is right? who cares, the games were fun anyway, and that's the stance i take on all games if you pre-occupy yourself with all the little inconsitancies then you will go mad or just lose all interest in the game out of disgust because it's not what you remembered anymore, just go with the flow and accept the compilation for what it is entertainment; not religion, science, or mathmatics, it does NOT have to be absolute, for those few nitpickers out there out to find every little inconsitancy they can, leave that to the rabbid simpsons fans, they're good at telling people all the inconsitancies within the series, doesn't make them right though, Matt Groening is the one that makes that call...

Charcoal, just because Stagnant Lifestream was not stated in FF7, its existence ISN'T a plot hole. You keep bandying these terms about. Do you really understand what they mean?

I mean, by your terms, Naboo is a plot hole, because no one in eps IV-VI of Star Wars mentioned it.

Again, though I mention that there is only one version of FF7. The official version. In this case, official = canon. If the creators make an explicit or implicit change to FF7, the change is official and now stands.

There is only one canon.

You are advocating fanon. This is fine and well, except for the fact that you do not appear to comprend that your fanon does not mean there are two canons.

Again I'll bring up an old argument, Square Enix has never denied there being two versions of Final Fantasy VII and so the possibility is there. Its not official (yet?) though, so people have to make up their own opinion whether to regard The Compilation canon or not atm.

Some of you don't seem to fully understand what I mean by "two versions" of FFVII, perhaps this will clear that up:

You don't have to deny its existence, as I said you can consider it an alternative. Two versions mean two storylines. In one of them, The Compilation don't exist, adn yes in a way that erase it, but not from the now official FFVII.

Square Enix should create a remake with no Compilation material whatsoever. This would efficently erase all unnecessarily retcon and make The Compilation an alternative like suggested, they would even make a dime along the way too. See, the possibility is there :) .

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Charcoal, just because Stagnant Lifestream was not stated in FF7, its existence ISN'T a plot hole. You keep bandying these terms about. Do you really understand what they mean?

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I find it very obvious that SL is only there to add some depth into Dirge of Cerberus, a game with a story adapted what (apperantly) most people wish for. Unfortunately this means changes to both the original characters and storyline based on the common opinion around Vincent. This shows in the terrible-medicore gameplay too. The game got terrible critics the first time around and SE even had to improve it for its American release.

So SL is a plot hole when considerd alongside the original storyline because there is no SL there. If you use your imagination enough then it can be there yes, same case with Deepground. However, how come Bugenhagen never mention this SL? How come we never heard anything of Deepground in the original game? Yes, both Deepground and SL are there to add more depth into a fan adapted story, nothing more.

Btw, since I don't know much of Star Wars I don't know how that series handle the apperant retcon.

i figured it out he's an old school rabbid FFVII Fanboy (just like the jaded old school purists out there) that is pissed because his beloved story got changed and expanded upon, thus meaning he had to spend money on other media that wasn't an RPG or direct playable RPG sequel and thus decides to ignore the compilation in favor of the old story, i believe this is where his 2 story theory stems from, just like the rabid Star Wars fans that choose to ignore anything that wasn't in eps 4-6... well, that's all well and good (or not so good when trying to convince others that they have no right to be entertained by said new media) but once again when it comes to conversation with others about the story you can not ommit what is there for the rest of the word just because you choose to ignore it for yourself, just because you choose to ignore it does not make your choice the right one, just mearly your choice, all i'm saying here is in conversations with others since you choose to ignore the compilation, you will never be right except on matters dealing with the Meteorfall portion of the story, it's like a mathamatician that only knows subtraction because he chooses to ignore all other mathamatic formulae, what good is he, the answer is simple he's not very usefull because he chose to ignore everything but one aspect, in short you're only right in this matter within your head, those of us still anchored in reality will continue to enjoy our entertainment while those few who try to tear it appart will find no joy in anything else but the ruining of said entertainment for others, which is what i think your true mission here is, truly sad, though i feel i should have no pitty for such a convoluted soul full of delusion, so your trying to ruin the story for others will not work on me, i'm above that, and thus this reply will go on ignored because it advocates enjoyment as opposed to over-dissection of the media... honestly if you can't enjoy it because you're pre-occupied with the little differances then you should just leave the FF VII License alone and find another game to worship, if you think they are slaughtering the story to make a quick buck (which coincidentaly is their job, to make money) then don't buy the media, you have the choice, don't read it, don't watch it, don't play it, don't buy it, but above all else don't say your oppinion is right, when you choose to ignore the bulk of the story, choosing to ignore the Compilation does not make it an alternative story, unless of course we decid to jump to a differant dimension where the compilation does not exist then there would be 2 stories but only for those that can dimension shift, which last i checked was impossible, so unless you have access to 2 different realities then the compilation does indeed fall into just one singular story along with the Meteorfall chapter...

i honestly think this guy is trolling now, i mean who hasn't heard of Star Wars or never even seen at least one of the moveis...

I don't say you have to believe me, I say make up your own opinion. If you think I'm wrong then fine, that's your opinion. You can't prove me wrong and I can't prove myself right, as there is no proof on either side of the case. That's why you have to make up your own opinion, it depends on how you see it.

And btw, I know what Star Wars is and I've seen one of the movies. I just don't have any interest in it and so I don't know much about it.

wow no interest in Star Wars, then you've missed a lot and i mean a lot of wonderfull SW referances throughout the FF Series of games as it is the most used pop culture referance in the series... anyway while i was in the shower a minute ago i thaught more about the idea of not accepting the compilation and how those principles would apply to all media, now if everything after the original is just filler junk to sell the product and not valid within the line of the story then that would make every television show, book series, and movie sagas completely pointless since everything after the pilot, first book, or first movie that was not mentioned in those said firsts are invalid junk filler to sell product and have little to no bearing on the overall story, since you don't like SW i'll referance Star Trek, in the original series episode Trouble With Tribbles, by your logic (this is referancing your logic on SL and why you think it's invalid) the tribbles should not exist since they were not in or mentioned in the pilot episode, but then by the same logic, no other planet or species encountered after the pilot episode should not be there due to them not being in or mentioned in the pilot episode... now my point is simply because it was not mentioned in the original does not make it any less valid, it is the nature of entertainment media to grow, add, and expand upon their products in order to keep the fans entertained, sorry but a stagnant product simply does not sell... and i refuse to form an opinion when faced with facts, fact and opinion are completely opposed to one another... on another matter S-E does not have to explicitly say that the compilation is not an alternate telling, it's implied by common knowledge that it is infact part of the story, if it was not they would have done like the creators of Gundam Wing and post a notice on their website and merchandise saying "this is an alternate telling of the story you already know", they don't have to tell you it is not but normaly they do tell you if it is an alternate telling... just because S-E did not say "this is not an alternate telling" does not mean that it is or even could be, just face that what is is and all your ignoring of the compilation will not change it, your voice will not be the one that makes S-E come out and say yeah it's not directly linked, when the packaging says it is, and the timeline poster in the DoC Strategy Guide says they fall in the same timeline as well, thus meaning it's all one story and not intended to be told as an alternate telling of the original Meteorfall chapter... as for you fear of them having to change things IF (thats the hugest if in existance) they ever did a remake of Meteorfall to include stuff like SL and the new orginizations, they will not because it was not relavent in that part of the story, it's only relevant later after the threat of Meteor is over, 3 years later to be exact, that's good enough time for new orginizations to crop up, and new discoveries to be made, re-making VII does not have to include putting AC and DoC (and the other canon provided by S-E) on the same disc as the Meteorfall Chapter...

Oh, is that so? Well then, can't you explain to me how its possible that AVALANCHE - started by Barret in the original game, suddenly turns out to have been a huge organisation a couple years back in the FFVII timeline? Can that be canon without using the term retcon - no it can't. Can SE still implement referances to Before Crisis in a remake - yes they can.

In response to what you said regarding other media, it isn't the same. Before Crisis came years after the original and brought along retcon. Star Wars, Star Trek, they may all have retcon in them but some stories got to be able to handle it better then FFVII did, correct? FFVII has only become retcon due to milking; Star Wars etc. may actually have suited an expanded universe.

I'll put up an example - the Harry Potter books (yeah I read them, sue me). Seven books are planned and so I don't ignore every book exept for the first one, despite your example suggesting you believe me to have that kind of perspective. If another three books showed up years after the original ones though, with retcon in them, of course some people would want to have two versions. And if J.K Rowling then said "forget the original Harry Potter, it's the three new books that really count" then of course we would have to stick with that. Note that if she didn't say anything like that though, that leave us with the possibility of two versions, and so some of us would hope for something restoring the Harry Potter saga back to its original state. Much the same way I look upon a potential FFVII remake.

so you're saying FF VII isn't suited for expansion, sure it's not an entire galaxy like SW & ST, but we as humans should know a lot can happen on one planet, and that's what the majority of fans want, is more of the world of FF VII and everything on it, but to give us more S-E has to make more, much to the disdain of those opposed, which is the minority, S-E isn't gonna give up on the FF VII world, just because a few people aren't happy with it, that loses proffit, so they're gonna cater to the fans that want more, the ones willing to pay for it, those that love the VII world enough not to disect it into it's smallest parts but accept it as a larger piece of entertainment, and from the numbers many of us are entertained... as for Barret, if you played through the Cosmo Canyon part, Barret talks around the fire of how he formed Avalanche there several years before Meteorfall and from the way he talks about it and the way Shin-Ra reports it ingame on the T.V.s and stuff Avalanche is a large orginization, but due to limited space on the CD-ROM format they couldn't animate in every member of Avalanche, heck why do you think towns seem empty except for the few ppl you can talk to in RPG's, the programers are not gonna animate streets full of people, it would seriousely slow the game down with some hella bad lag (yes it can happen in offline games, happened often in older games on carts) it's up to the player to assume the streets are full of people and the only ones the players see are the ones that can be interacted with, that's prolly why they didn't show more members of Avalanche than you needed to see, not to mention the members you do get to interact with are Barrets closest friends, it's implied throughout the Meteorfall chapter that Avalanche is a huge orginization...

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so you're saying FF VII isn't suited for expansion, sure it's not an entire galaxy like SW & ST, but we as humans should know a lot can happen on one planet, and that's what the majority of fans want, is more of the world of FF VII and everything on it, but to give us more S-E has to make more, much to the disdain of those opposed, which is the minority, S-E isn't gonna give up on the FF VII world, just because a few people aren't happy with it, that loses proffit, so they're gonna cater to the fans that want more, the ones willing to pay for it, those that love the VII world enough not to disect it into it's smallest parts but accept it as a larger piece of entertainment, and from the numbers many of us are entertained...

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True, that is what Dirge of Cerberus is based on. And yeah, it's understandable; SE is supposed to make profits. But does that mean they have to ruin it for those of us who prefer Final Fantasy VII instead of Final Fantasy VII: Fan Adapted Retcon Edition? No. That's why it would be nice of them to make The Compilation an alternative, and they can do that too. They may decide to create an unedited (apart from the graphics and sounds ofc) remake of the original game. And since they haven't denied that being possible there is a chance they might just do it. And so I choose to stick with thah possibility for now.

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as for Barret, if you played through the Cosmo Canyon part, Barret talks around the fire of how he formed Avalanche there several years before Meteorfall and from the way he talks about it and the way Shin-Ra reports it ingame on the T.V.s and stuff Avalanche is a large orginization, but due to limited space on the CD-ROM format they couldn't animate in every member of Avalanche, heck why do you think towns seem empty except for the few ppl you can talk to in RPG's, the programers are not gonna animate streets full of people, it would seriousely slow the game down with some hella bad lag (yes it can happen in offline games, happened often in older games on carts) it's up to the player to assume the streets are full of people and the only ones the players see are the ones that can be interacted with, that's prolly why they didn't show more members of Avalanche than you needed to see, not to mention the members you do get to interact with are Barrets closest friends, it's implied throughout the Meteorfall chapter that Avalanche is a huge orginization...

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Wrong. Let me quote from the game:

Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."

Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

note "This is where AVALANCHE was born" was used in past tense, when he says "I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie..." he was talking about the founding memberes returning to the birthplace of AVALANCHE to celebrate their victory, but he can't do that after they're dead so he laments them at the orginizations birthplace, later on in the conversation he says "Again.... Again.... AVALANCHE's born again!" meaning that he was not gonna give up on his orginization he started years earlier in that very spot, not just yet, not just because his closets friends were killed, but rather he used their deaths to fuel his new anger against Shin-Ra, making it more personal and less about AVALANCHE's mission to save the plannet, let the incidental members of AVALANCHE handle the planet, while the leader goes on a bloody crusade against Shin-Ra's leaders personaly...

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Wrong. Let me quote from the game:

Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."

Speaks for itself, doesn't it?

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And why this can be considered an evidence that Barret created Avalanche? He said "where Avalanche was born" not "where i created Avalanche". He said too, "when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate". Why he didn't said "return to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate"? Because Barret never lived(or visited) CC in his life. He just knew that CC was the place were the original Avalanche group was created, and he wanted to celebrate their victory there.
Again, this is not a retcon.

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Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."

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In the original game this clearly hints that Barret created AVALANCHE and that he, Biggs, Wedge and Jessie were the main men behind it. There might very well have been minor AVALANCHE supporters along the way, not any of big importance though - like the ones in BC - because they were never presented or even mentioned. Like Deepground and SL this concept might be squeezed into the story if you really want them to, but that doesn't mean they're not retcon.

The expanded AVALANCHE wasn't even mentioned in the original game and that would've been an important part of the storyline don't you think? Before Crisis has just been added later on, not because there was something left unfinished in the original, but because SE saw a potential profit source and thus expanded the story with unnecessarily retcon.

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Originally Posted by Elly

wow no interest in Star Wars, then you've missed a lot and i mean a lot of wonderfull SW referances throughout the FF Series of games as it is the most used pop culture referance in the series...

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Yes, your life has been wasted.

It's kind of funny that you guys are comparing the compilation to the Star Wars EU, because I make that comparison all the time. I like to use it as a way of illustrating how poorly the FF7 expansion was handled, and how it could have been done right had they taken a lesson from Star Wars.

Silly, silly Square.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

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Barret - "Cosmo Canyon... this is where AVALANCHE was born... I promised my guys someday... when we saved the planet from the Shinra, that we'd all go to Cosmo Canyon and celebrate... Biggs... Wedge... Jessie... Now they're all gone... died for the planet."

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In the original game this clearly hints that Barret created AVALANCHE and that he, Biggs, Wedge and Jessie were the main men behind it. There might very well have been minor AVALANCHE supporters along the way, not any of big importance though - like the ones in BC - because they were never presented or even mentioned. Like Deepground and SL this concept might be squeezed into the story if you really want them to, but that doesn't mean they're not retcon.

The expanded AVALANCHE wasn't even mentioned in the original game and that would've been an important part of the storyline don't you think? Before Crisis has just been added later on, not because there was something left unfinished in the original, but because SE saw a potential profit source and thus expanded the story with unnecessarily retcon.

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Avalanche was born in Cosmo Canyon. Lets "Pretend" Barret started it. Assuming thats the case, Barret would have to have been from Cosmo Canyon, or been there shortly before the creation of avalanche. If this is the case, what are the reasons he has no Idea who Red or the Old man is? And why does no one from Cosmo Canyon know where he is?

The answer is simple, he is not from, nor has he ever been there. Until they go there after Midgar, at which point he was already in Avalanche.
Either this means FF VII had a huge Plot hole on its own, which was fixed by the Retcon, or there was no plot hole and Barret Never Created Avalanche, and only started the Section of Avalanche that was in Midgar.

Charcoal, I think you are failing to see something major in your argument. You are claiming that FFVII was a really really good stand alone game. I agree with you. Though I haven't taken the time to figure everything out myself, I have figured out quite a bit, based on the original game alone. And I do believe that it is entirely possible to discover everything there is about the original game just by playing the original game. However, this does not mean that the story is complete. It just means that the first chapter was told really well. Now, in Advent Children, the major story point (despite what it may seem) was Cloud finally releasing his guilt about Aerith's and Zach's deaths.

If you want to rely only on the original game, Cloud never released this guilt. However, in AC, Cloud did. Obviously, if this is part of the story, FFVII does not complete the story. Because AC came along and helped us understand more about it. Two years after Meteorfall, Cloud released his guilt. There is no mention or even a slight reference to this in the original game. Do you know why? Because the game only deals with what happens in the game. It doesn't deal with what happened two years after the game.

Thus, AC was needed to complete the story. And that's not all. Not only did Dirge of Cerberus add onto the original storyline, but it also gave us quite a bit of background on Vincent's life. There is no conceivable way to figure out all of Vincent's past just by playing FFVII. FFVII tells us that he was a Turk, that he loved Lucrecia Crescent (the original game actually never even gave us her last name), and that he had some dealings with Hojo because he never tried to stop Lucrecia and Hojo from completing the Jenova Project by injecting their own son with Jenova cells.

Never does it tell us anything else about Vincent. However, for all you know, Square Enix could have written out Vincent's entire history before FFVII was even made, and then released it in a new game which not only gave us this information, but also new information. You want to know why Deepground is never even mentioned in VII? Because it was a completely secret organization. Reeve didn't even know of it's existence, and he was in the President's top circle. Only President Shinra (not Rufus), Heidegger, and Scarlet would have known, according to Reeve, as stated in DoC.

So, as much as FFVII is a very well told story, it is hardly complete. Only paying attention to the original game and not the Compilation would be like reading the Hobbit and choosing to believe that the Lord of the Rings is an alternate story that you can choose to believe happened or not. Sorry, doesn't work that way. The Hobbit and LOTR are a package. Whether you like it or not, both things happened in the same universe. Same with the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII. Deal with it.

Edit: By the way, Elly, would you mind if I quoted that bit about how there are three sides to every story, yours, mine, and the truth thing in my signature. I think that is an absolutely fantastic quote.

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Avalanche was born in Cosmo Canyon. Lets "Pretend" Barret started it. Assuming thats the case, Barret would have to have been from Cosmo Canyon, or been there shortly before the creation of avalanche. If this is the case, what are the reasons he has no Idea who Red or the Old man is? And why does no one from Cosmo Canyon know where he is?

The answer is simple, he is not from, nor has he ever been there. Until they go there after Midgar, at which point he was already in Avalanche.
Either this means FF VII had a huge Plot hole on its own, which was fixed by the Retcon, or there was no plot hole and Barret Never Created Avalanche, and only started the Section of Avalanche that was in Midgar.

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Barret could've been in Cosmo Canyon when he/they (Biggs, Wedge, Jessie and maybe some randoms) started AVALANCHE, as far as I remember no visitors in Cosmo Canyon are forced into a sightseeing trip. The Cosmo Candle is one of the most notable things in the canyon, and so there is nothing suggesting Barret could not have been there earlier in his days.

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Charcoal, I think you are failing to see something major in your argument. You are claiming that FFVII was a really really good stand alone game. I agree with you. Though I haven't taken the time to figure everything out myself, I have figured out quite a bit, based on the original game alone. And I do believe that it is entirely possible to discover everything there is about the original game just by playing the original game. However, this does not mean that the story is complete. It just means that the first chapter was told really well. Now, in Advent Children, the major story point (despite what it may seem) was Cloud finally releasing his guilt about Aerith's and Zach's deaths.

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The story was complete, AC were never part of FFVII in the first place. Of course there is room for sequels, but that isn't necessarily.

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If you want to rely only on the original game, Cloud never released this guilt. However, in AC, Cloud did. Obviously, if this is part of the story, FFVII does not complete the story. Because AC came along and helped us understand more about it. Two years after Meteorfall, Cloud released his guilt. There is no mention or even a slight reference to this in the original game. Do you know why? Because the game only deals with what happens in the game. It doesn't deal with what happened two years after the game.

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It makes Cloud release his guilt and that may very well be part of the story. But it doesn't need to be, that's where it's at.

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Thus, AC was needed to complete the story. And that's not all. Not only did Dirge of Cerberus add onto the original storyline, but it also gave us quite a bit of background on Vincent's life. There is no conceivable way to figure out all of Vincent's past just by playing FFVII. FFVII tells us that he was a Turk, that he loved Lucrecia Crescent (the original game actually never even gave us her last name), and that he had some dealings with Hojo because he never tried to stop Lucrecia and Hojo from completing the Jenova Project by injecting their own son with Jenova cells.

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AC added something new to the story.

One of the most difficult aspects of FFVII is deciphering Vincent's past. Many players, like yourself judging by your quote here, think there are no way of figuring it out. But you can, its just ridiculously hard because the hints are scattered across the game and not only in Vincent's flashback like many people think.

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Never does it tell us anything else about Vincent. However, for all you know, Square Enix could have written out Vincent's entire history before FFVII was even made, and then released it in a new game which not only gave us this information, but also new information.

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Believe me; Vincent's background in the original was nothing like the one in DoC (well for the most part). If you're in doubt (which I would guess you are since you said for yourself you haven't taken the time to figure everything) then I suggest you play the original game a couple times more to look for hidden clues, I'm sure you'll find differences between FFVII and DoC since they're quite obvious once you know what to look for.

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You want to know why Deepground is never even mentioned in VII? Because it was a completely secret organization. Reeve didn't even know of it's existence, and he was in the President's top circle. Only President Shinra (not Rufus), Heidegger, and Scarlet would have known, according to Reeve, as stated in DoC.

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How convenient then :rolleyes2 .

Well, if you plan on looking for those Vincent’s past hints – luck with that :) ! Not like if you’re too likely to need it though considering how much DoC is focused on fans’ point of view rather then the complexity of the original plot.

Btw, I wouldn't want to compare it to The Hobbit. Like I said some stories handle it better then others. And tbh I think The Hobbit had a lot of room for LOTR. Judging by all the resentful fans however, FFVII is quite a different story.

You're missing the point, though. Yes, AC wasn't necessary, but neither was The Hobbit. In fact, Tolkien only wrote the LOTR trilogy at the request of the fans that loved the Hobbit. How it was handled is a different matter. Whether fans liked the outcome or not, they are the ones who asked for the Compilation. Square most likely never intended making the Compilation, I agree with you there, but that doesn't mean tha they don't work well.

As much as you'd like to believe that an extensive overview of Vincent's past is scattered in FFVII I can assure you that it is not. I haven't gone so far as to write down every bit of dialogue. But I've played through that game at least 10 times and I've done every side quest you could ever dream of. There's Vincent's flashback, and then there's a little bit more when you take Vincent to Lucrecia's Cave for the first and second times (considering the second time is when you are on the Third Disc).

There is nothing wrong with a sequel as long as it can agree with the original, which the new ones pretty much do. In Advent Children, everything is consistent with the game. Tainted Lifestream exists because Jenova's cells have seeped into the Lifestream and caused it to be tainted. This is also what causes Geostigma. Break that word down and you get "mark of the earth" which makes sense. Lifestream is from the earth, but the tainted Lifestream causes this sickness (characterized by a stigma on the skin) in all who carry it. Why? Because they are carrying Jenova's cells and very few people can accept them. In fact, only those who have first been exposed to Mako can accept Jenova's cells. This is perfectly consistent with the original game.

See how the new idea of tainted Lifestream was caused by the events of the game? And then you layer on the true story of Cloud releasing his guilt, with a pinch of side plot, that being the Shinentai of Sephiroth, and viola. You get AC.

With DoC, they took the basics of what we knew about Vincent's past already (i.e. Turk, Lucrecia, Hojo, Jenova Project, guilt) and they embellished on them. That doesn't make it inconsistent with the game, it just gives us more detail than the game did. That's all. The addition to Vincent's past is entirely consistent with the original game. Whether it was intended or not is not the point. You are claiming that you are angry with the inconsistencies and the plot holes, so I'm showing you why the Compilation is neither.

Now, about the Stagnant Lifestream, I cannot say. DoC didn't give us many clues about it's origin, use, or how it is controlled. It obviously has something to do with Vincent, considering that Lucrecia was studying it as part of her research on her thesis on Chaos, which she later applied to Vincent. We also know that Nero has some control over it. How or why we do not yet know. How the Stagnant Lifestream applies to and effects Vincent is not yet known. Perhaps it is just a mystery where we must suspend our disbelief, or perhaps it will be explained later on, but just because it didn't exist in the original game, doesn't mean that it's inconsisten with it. There's a difference.

those are some good points Aralith, and they totaly support what i've been trying to tell this guy, but he's worse about seeing what he wants to believe when faced with facts than a psychotic Southern Babtist Preacher, hence ima wash my hands of him, besides i still haven't finished DoC, too much real-world stuff keeps interupting my playtime, though i will make one final note as to why Barret may not have encountered Buggenhagen or Nanaki on his first visit, if you were to visit my home town and come to my house is there a guarantee that i will be here when you arrive, no there is not, i may even be out of town visiting family or friends, if Barret and his crew visited Cosmo Canyon before there is no 'set in stone rule' that all the inhabitants have to be there when they arrive, who knows how long Nanaki was a prisoner of Hojo, heck he may have even just been out hunting when Barret and his crew showed up, Buggenhagen could have been out studying the planet, it's what they do, now it is purely conjecture, but never the less it's still a valid theory, and i know Baret wasn't born or lived in Cosmo Canyon he was a citizen of Corel, but some time after the Corel incident he could have made his way to Cosmo Canyon (en route to Midgar) and have been awed by their connection with the planet, thus deciding to form Avalanche, it is never explicitly stated how the events transpired but none the less they did happen in the past before Clouds parties Visit to the Canyon as the phrase "was born" is clearly used in the past tense, and just as valid was the other theory that he may have only heard of Cosmo Canyon and based his beliefs on what he heard about the place, but once again it was clearly in the past, and the television reports you get to watch ingame keep hinting at the "Terrorist Orginization Avalanche" which implies more than 5 people, 5 people can not be an orginization, though they can be organized, they're way too small to be called an orginization, the group of Barret, Jessie, Biggs, Wedge, & Tifa could have been just a cell of Avalanche (albeit the primary cell but a cell none the less), it's hard to bust a Terrorist orginization if the group is splintered all over the world, terrorist cells work that way so if one group gets caught the rest can cary on with the orginizations plans...

oh and Aralith i don't mind if you sigg me, i'm allright with that, i personaly like that quote and find some wisdom in it...

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You're missing the point, though. Yes, AC wasn't necessary, but neither was The Hobbit. In fact, Tolkien only wrote the LOTR trilogy at the request of the fans that loved the Hobbit. How it was handled is a different matter. Whether fans liked the outcome or not, they are the ones who asked for the Compilation. Square most likely never intended making the Compilation, I agree with you there, but that doesn't mean tha they don't work well.

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As a sequel to FFVII, AC doesn’t do much wrong. It’s just that it’s what you call an add-on, and some of us who were happy with FFVII proper don’t want stuff like that. Like I said in the first post of the topic, the lifestream never got tainted. That’s because I stick with FFVII and nothing more because The Compilation was never intended to be a part of it. I’m saying make a choice because it’s there. AC isn’t half as bad as DoC and tbh I don’t hate the movie that much. DoC however might be the most crap game I’ve ever played due to the frustration of seeing the whole topic (Vincent’s past) being adapted what fans consider correct, just to sell. Don’t get me wrong, I like Vincent; I think he is cool, but I would never adapt the storyline to his view. Something DoC does, no doubt.

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As much as you'd like to believe that an extensive overview of Vincent's past is scattered in FFVII I can assure you that it is not. I haven't gone so far as to write down every bit of dialogue. But I've played through that game at least 10 times and I've done every side quest you could ever dream of. There's Vincent's flashback, and then there's a little bit more when you take Vincent to Lucrecia's Cave for the first and second times (considering the second time is when you are on the Third Disc).

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It’s extremely tricky. I’ve played the game somewhere between the range of 20-30 times times and I’ve written down all dialogue and I still consider the matter to be one, if maybe not even the, most difficult part of FFVII to solve.

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There is nothing wrong with a sequel as long as it can agree with the original, which the new ones pretty much do. In Advent Children, everything is consistent with the game. Tainted Lifestream exists because Jenova's cells have seeped into the Lifestream and caused it to be tainted. This is also what causes Geostigma. Break that word down and you get "mark of the earth" which makes sense. Lifestream is from the earth, but the tainted Lifestream causes this sickness (characterized by a stigma on the skin) in all who carry it. Why? Because they are carrying Jenova's cells and very few people can accept them. In fact, only those who have first been exposed to Mako can accept Jenova's cells. This is perfectly consistent with the original game.

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Yes, pretty much. Like I said, AC doesn’t do much wrong but it’s annoying for some of us to be handed a sequel ages later then the original arrived. So for those of us who would like to stick to the 1997 FFVII this tainted lifestream concept becomes a plot hole because it’s pure sequel material. And again I say that’s why we can choose. Again I tell you, it depends on how you see it.

BC is a bit worse then AC. In that game they add a bunch of new characters never even mentioned in the original, in other words, obvious retcon arrives. Its fun for those wanting a prequel but for those of us who were happy with the original FFVII and don’t want it changed, it’s a pain in the ass to be blunt.

DoC is the worst of the lot, completely editing an already existing part of the game while at the same time adding new material. This only sells because some people need everything with the Final Fantasy VII logo on it, others are Vincent fanboys (note that I like Vincent but I hated the game, which I guess makes me a regular fan) and so they now got a dream come true.

And of course some buy it out of curiousity (like I did).

So Aralith, you got great points explaining why those who accept The Compilation accept it. I admire that. However some of us don’t accept The Compilation because it is unnecessarily retcon. So that’s why some of us (including me) stick to the possibility of there being two versions. After all, the possibility is there.

And Elly, AVALANCHE whether five members or more, may very well have been considered a threat by Shinra due to the lack of competition they have in the game. And like mentioned, there may have been randoms in it too. Not the ones from BC though, because they’re never presented and/or mentioned in the original.

Are you even hearing yourself? Let me show you a couple things that you said:

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

As a sequel to FFVII, AC doesn’t do much wrong. It’s just that it’s what you call an add-on, and some of us who were happy with FFVII proper don’t want stuff like that.

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So for those of us who would like to stick to the 1997 FFVII this tainted lifestream concept becomes a plot hole because it’s pure sequel material.

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I've boldened the parts I deem important in these quotes. The problem that you have with the Compilation is that you don't like or want sequel material. That's all fine and dandy but it doesn't change the fact that there is. Yes, VII is a great stand alone game, but obviously there are things that led up to the events in VII, and things that happened after the events in VII. All the Compilation is doing is giving us more of a world we already love. Oh, and do you even know what a plot hole is? You seem not to, so here's the Wikipedia definition of the word:

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Originally Posted by Wikpedia

A plot hole is a gap in a storyline that goes against the flow of logic set-up by the plot or that undermines the basic premises of the story. Plot holes are usually seen as weaknesses and flaws in a story, and writers try to avoid them (except in certain deliberate circumstances, usually for humorous effect) to make their stories seem as realistic and lifelike as possible.

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Now, I'm pretty sure that I just explained how Jenova tainting the Lifestream fits perfectly into the logical flow of the original game. Whether or not it was never intended is not the point right now. What matters is the logic and flow, because that's all that a plot hole is concerned with. Thus, as long as the explanation of the tainted Lifestream is consistent with the original game, which I've already shown that it is, it is not a plot hole.

Now, like I said, I don't think enough information has been given about stagnant Lifestream to determine whether or not it logically fits with the world that the original game set up. Also, if you could show me a specific example in Dirge of Cerberus where Vincent's elaborated past clashed with the skeleton of a past that we find out in VII, that would be a plot hole. But as such, you have not shown me such an example yet. If you believe it exists, please tell me.

I will check in both games the passage of which you speak (lucky me I just started playing both games again after a good six month hiatus from them) and get back to you on whether I truly believe that it is a plot hole or not. Until you can show me an example of this or any other plot hole, based on the definition above, not whatever definition you were using before, then we'll have made some progress here.

For the last time, I'm not saying you have to believe me. I say some of us stick to there being two versions because we don't want any unnecessarily retcon. And since SE has never denied that being a possibility we have the choice. I'm not saying The Compilation doesn't exist, I say it's an alternative, alright? Just like the original FFVII is an alternative to The Compilation.

Maybe the phrase "may be an alternative" is more correct, after all the information I present isn't official. That means there are no proof on either side of the case and so it is up to the player whether to consider The Compilation canon or not.

No. No it isn't. The compilation is canon automatically, even if it introduces retcons and plot holes, the latter of which you have yet to demonstrate the existence of.

I'll make this very simple- YOU DO NOT COMPREHEND THE MEANING OF THE TERMS YOU ARE USING IN THIS DEBATE. That it why you fail.

Once again, Charcoal, I ask that you please demonstrate a plot hole to me. If I find it compelling, I would be forced to reconsider my position. That is, not that the Compilation isn't canon, but that Nomura is a terrible story teller (which I already halfway feel anyways, but meh). If you post again without making even a mention of one of these fabled plot holes, then I will have no choice but to accept your concession.

Edit: Oh, and by the way.

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Originally Posted by The Dictionary

of·fi·cial
–noun
1. a person appointed or elected to an office or charged with certain duties.
–adjective
2. of or pertaining to an office or position of duty, trust, or authority: official powers.
3. authorized or issued authoritatively: an official report.
4. holding office.
5. appointed or authorized to act in a designated capacity: an official representative.
6. (of an activity or event) intended for the notice of the public and performed or held on behalf of officials or of an organization; formal: the official opening of a store.
7. Pharmacology. noting drugs or drug preparations that are recognized by and that conform to the standards of the United States Pharmacopeia or the National Formulary.

can·on
–noun
1. an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority and, in the Roman Catholic Church, approved by the pope.
2. the body of ecclesiastical law.
3. the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.
4. a fundamental principle or general rule: the canons of good behavior.
5. a standard; criterion: the canons of taste.
6. the books of the Bible recognized by any Christian church as genuine and inspired.
7. any officially recognized set of sacred books.
8. any comprehensive list of books within a field.
9. the works of an author that have been accepted as authentic: There are 37 plays in the Shakespeare canon. Compare apocrypha (def. 3).
10. a catalog or list, as of the saints acknowledged by the Church.
11. Liturgy. the part of the Mass between the Sanctus and the Communion.
12. Eastern Church. a liturgical sequence sung at matins, usually consisting of nine odes arranged in a fixed pattern.
13. Music. consistent, note-for-note imitation of one melodic line by another, in which the second line starts after the first.
14. Printing. a 48-point type.

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I believe that the defintions we are using are #3 of official, and #9 of canon. Please try to keep all answers within the bounds of those two definitions. And since I already defined plot hole for you, you know that is so, have at it.

Alright, the plot holes in DoC can only be fully revealed by a very accurate explanation considering every difference between the two games or else it won't be convincing enough because additional questions tend to pop up. Because of this I'll have to bring in something similiar to an essay if I really want to prove my point. And that'll take some time. Well right now, I'm not up for that.

By the sound of it, it wouldn't matter if I showed you the plot holes either since every part of The Compilation is canon by default according to some of you. Why should I bother writing an essay if people are just gonna ignore it because it doesn't count anymore due to retcon?

... I give up. So no more trying to convince people on FF forums that SE might have made a mistake and so they might do smart in introducing their compilation as an alternative. Might be just as fair, most people on the forum seem to accept The Compilation anyway :) .

Like I said, I can't prove myself, I don't work for SE and so I can't contribute with any official information. Then again, nothing can prove me wrong either since SE has never denied there being a possibility.

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Originally Posted by Aralith

Now, about the Stagnant Lifestream, I cannot say. DoC didn't give us many clues about it's origin, use, or how it is controlled. It obviously has something to do with Vincent, considering that Lucrecia was studying it as part of her research on her thesis on Chaos, which she later applied to Vincent. We also know that Nero has some control over it. How or why we do not yet know. How the Stagnant Lifestream applies to and effects Vincent is not yet known. Perhaps it is just a mystery where we must suspend our disbelief, or perhaps it will be explained later on, but just because it didn't exist in the original game, doesn't mean that it's inconsisten with it. There's a difference.

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Chaos was a being completely made of Stagnant Lifestream. Vincent has it inside of him, this is why he was immune to Nero's darkness. After Chaos "die" in the end of the game, Vincent don't have any connection with SL anymore.

And if i remember well, Nero was injected with SL when he was in the womb(like Sephiroth and Jenova). After he was born, he accidentaly absorbed/killed his mother with his darkness. This is explained in DoC Online.

No need for proof of the negative.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

Like I said, I can't prove myself, I don't work for SE and so I can't contribute with any official information. Then again, nothing can prove me wrong either since SE has never denied there being a possibility.

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Well, as Mirage said, you don't have to prove a negative, it is assumed. My default position is that until Square Enix says that it is an alternate story line that it is not. You claiming that just because they haven't said it is so makes it a possibility is like claiming that LOTR is really just an alternate storyline of The Hobbit because it was never intended and Tolkien never said any different. There is no need for LOTR to be alternate because it is completely in sync with The Hobbit in terms of logic and flow. So is the Compilation in sync with the original Final Fantasy VII.

Oh, and you've clearly never seen me in a debate before. My mind has been changed several times before. But only after sufficient evidence has been presented, which is not the case here. And considering that you are refusing to give me this evidence, you leave me no choice. Concession accepted.

Well The Hobbit & LOTR looks sync in terms of logic and flow to me. FFVII however don't. And it's not only me who has that opinion, I've seen many others. I'm quite sure there are far more Compilation Haters then LOTR haters. However, like mentioned earlier in the topic we who hate The Compilation are likely outnumbered by those who accept it. I'm simply suggesting that we who hate The Compilation should be able to consider it an alternative to the original. After all, the possibility is there. So what I mean is, everyone should make up their own opinion since there is no proof on either side of the case.

But there is proof. You're just ignoring it. If there were these gaping plot holes that you claim exist, that would definitely weaken my faith in the Compilation (I say gaping because every story has it's minor plot holes every now and then). If you really want to make your point, you have to provide evidence. You can't just say, "Ha ha, I'm right. And there's no evidence either way, so you can never disprove me!" That's utter bull:skull::skull::skull::skull:. I can disprove you by explaining every plothole you threw at me. I explained tainted Lifestream. I said that stagnant Lifestream doesn't have enough known about it to say whether it's a plot hole or not, so for now I must assume the default position that it's not. And that will be my position on the entire Compilation until you can prove otherwise.

Oh, and just as a side note: I actually haven't said anything on whether I like or hate the Compilation. You seem to be assuming that because I accept it, I must like it. That is not entirely true. Though I do appreciate the Compilation as eye candy more than anything, and a little bit of background story (that being DoC), it is nowhere near on par with the original game. I like FFVII far more than the Compilation, but that is not what is mattering right now. Just because you hate the Compilation doesn't mean that you can't accept it as canon. It just means that you think they ruined a good story. And if that's how you feel, just ignore it for yourself, but claiming that it's an "alternate" storyline is ridiculous, misleading, and unofficial.

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Just because you hate the Compilation doesn't mean that you can't accept it as canon. It just means that you think they ruined a good story. And if that's how you feel, just ignore it for yourself, but claiming that it's an "alternate" storyline is ridiculous, misleading, and unofficial.

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It's not just me who feel that way; many FFVII players think The Compilation ruined the story. I haven't heard many say LOTR suck and ruined The Hobbit. And that's part of what it's at. So of course its frustrating "having" to accept The Compilation canon. That's why some of us would like The Compilation to be an alternative. SE has never denied the possibility and so some of us do consider The Compilation an alternative. And I don't say everyone should follow us Compilation Haters. If you like The Compilation, consider the 1997 original an alternative. If you don't like The Compilation consider it an alternative. There is room for both.

Charcoal, I think I understand what you're trying to say and I'm going to step in and defend it before this conversation devolves any further.

There is a web site called Eyesonff.com. It has forums devoted to Games, daily life, etc. One of the forums is reserved for discussion of Final Fantasy VII. I go there when I want to talk about Final Fantasy VII, a video game released by SquareSOFT in 1997 for Playstation.

I don't come here to discuss canon. I wouldn't call myself a "hater". I enjoy watching scenarios that take place in the FF7 Universe. But when I talk about FF7 or compare it to other games, I'm talking about an RPG, not an RPG and a few movies and a shooting game, and a few mobile games. I'm talking about FF7 for the PSX.

The Crystal - you and others brought up numerous times about the UOG and how the creators gave a definitive answer to many questions about FF.

But you're placing too much credit onto it. One of the best things bout FFVII is that much of it is left up to interpretation - including the debate over whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or vice versa.

Controversies like this are not definitively resolved by some UO guide. There is nothing in FF7 that distinctly states which controlled the other. Yes, Kitase/Nomura stated that Sephiroth was the controller. But he could wake up tomorrow and say to a newspaper that it was the other way around. The bottom line is the creators' publicity statements are irrelevant to what the game did and did not represent.

Ryushikaze - this goes for you too, buddy. When I play the game, and discuss the game any and all of the retcons you defiantly defend are irrelevant to me. When I'm playing the flashback where Cloud throws Sephiroth in the mako, am I supposed to close my eyes, cover my ears and envision the scene from Last Order?

Get the F*** outta here.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

Ryushikaze - this goes for you too, buddy. When I play the game, and discuss the game any and all of the retcons you defiantly defend are irrelevant to me. When I'm playing the flashback where Cloud throws Sephiroth in the mako, am I supposed to close my eyes, cover my ears and envision the scene from Last Order?

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Yes. BECAUSE IT'S BEEN GORRAM RETCONNED. When Lucas Released the SE's for 4, 5, & 6 those took precedence over the previously released versions. You may still watch and enjoy them, but Greedo shoots first, even if you or I don't like it.
Similarly, Last Order, watched over by the same creative minds as the original game, takes precedence over the original game. It 'corrects' it, as it were.

And I'm not the one defiantly defending things. You are the one defiantly defending a version of events which no longer stands as official. It's like defending Cloud's Kalm retelling as official when there is a more accurate version in existence.

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Get the F*** outta here.

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No. Bite me. Come up with better arguments.

As I said before, the events shown in Last Order are not drastic enough to be considered retcons. The changes are so subtle that one should not even be bothered by them. They're simply being told from a different perspective.

I'll try to find that post.

EDIT: Here it is:

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People, when we see events playing out differently (such as Last Order's depiction of the Nibelbeim incidents as opposed to the original game's), these should be understood less as retcons and more as different depictions, or interpretations, either told from different points of view or expanded upon. Naturally, some things will be different. Retcons, however, are those major changes to the story. But things like Tifa discovering her father outside of the reactor rather than inside, Cloud stabbing Sephiroth before he turns around rather than after, Cloud being impaled twice, and Sephiroth willingly jumping into the Lifestream rather than being tossed in: these things are extremely subtle differences in narration rather than retcons.

And Han shot first, damnit! (Pretty much everything else I'm okay with.)

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

The Crystal - you and others brought up numerous times about the UOG and how the creators gave a definitive answer to many questions about FF.

But you're placing too much credit onto it. One of the best things bout FFVII is that much of it is left up to interpretation - including the debate over whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or vice versa.

Controversies like this are not definitively resolved by some UO guide. There is nothing in FF7 that distinctly states which controlled the other. Yes, Kitase/Nomura stated that Sephiroth was the controller. But he could wake up tomorrow and say to a newspaper that it was the other way around. The bottom line is the creators' publicity statements are irrelevant to what the game did and did not represent.

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Yes, much of FFVII was left to interpretation. Until SE decided to explain everything, in a book. But some people think they have more authority over FFVII's universe than SE, and can decide what is canon and what isn't. And this is sad.
You and Charcoal can belive in whatever you want. I don't care AND SE don't care too. Reality will not change just because you want.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

You and Charcoal can belive in whatever you want. I don't care AND SE don't care too. Reality will not change just because you want.

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The possibility for what I suggest is there. All I ask is an alternative.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

You and Charcoal can belive in whatever you want. I don't care AND SE don't care too. Reality will not change just because you want.

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The possibility for what I suggest is there. All I ask is an alternative.

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No, that possibility isn't there, because... guess what. Whether you like it or not, the Compilation is official. It's also canon. When it is both of those things, it takes precedent over anything that came before. Really thinking about it, the Compilation changes hardly a thing. Last Order changed the scene at the Mako Reactor atop Mt. Nibel so minutely, it doesn't really matter. If Dirge of Cerberus did change the past of Vincent as we learned it in FFVII, then it is minutely that I, a major fan of the game, didn't notice it, and when DoC did change that past, it takes precedent over whatever past that FFVII gave us. That's that. It's final. No alternate realities.

I've already explained several times why there is room for both. Now if your opinion is set, then alright, you've made up your mind. That doesn't make your opinion a fact, however. Like I said, there is no proof on either side of the case.

hi i read the first page only.

you can't expect a new team to add to a work of fiction nearly a decade after its original release and have it come out credible or authentic. it doesn't happen. no matter how hard they tried to remain authentic it would be hard to capture the same atmosphere or to recapture the characters personalities.

although it is official and the story is owned by square they can do what they want with it, it's clear that the motive is profits. the compilation, particularly advent children, is very "sexed up" compared to the subtle and downtrodden feel of FF7. it's understandable for a piece of literature to take a change in direction when attacked by a different team several years later. you don't have to consider it canon just because square does. they're making money out of doing that. are you?

Two things paul

1- The same team worked on most of the compilation as FF7

2- Yes, we do have to consider it canon because they do. They own the series. They dictate their canon policy.

i'm sure it's not the exact same team. and there's still a time gap which smurfs with the continuity.

anyway it may technically be considered canon, since they own the story. and i'm loathe to disagree with this point, but i'm afraid i have to. you can't take a really great book, then piss and vomit all over it 10 years later, and go "HEY I WROTE THE ORIGINAL, SO THIS PISS AND VOMIT IS CANON"

you can't do that. common sense has to step in somewhere and say "Look, piss and vomit do not fit here. i don't care that you own it. this is not right"

i can see a better world for all of us...

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Originally Posted by Paul

anyway it may technically be considered canon, since they own the story. and i'm loathe to disagree with this point, but i'm afraid i have to. you can't take a really great book, then piss and vomit all over it 10 years later, and go "HEY I WROTE THE ORIGINAL, SO THIS PISS AND VOMIT IS CANON"

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Except you can. If you own the universe and you own the characters, you can do whatever the hell you want with them and it's canon. That is the definition of the word canon. Now, whether it's good quality is a different argument all together.

Hey, if you want to ignore the Compilation then that's all right. If it works for you then you can take FFVII to be the whole story and that's legitimate. In your head. But as soon as you start arguing theories with other people then the Compilation supercedes your own interpretation of the universe and you won't be able to argue with anything that directly contradicts the Compilation. You can believe any theories you want that ignore the Compilation, but you will never be able to get others to agree with you. And if that's cool with you, then knock yourself out.

Also, Ryu? Frakking awesome, dude.

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

I've already explained several times why there is room for both. Now if your opinion is set, then alright, you've made up your mind. That doesn't make your opinion a fact, however. Like I said, there is no proof on either side of the case.

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If you truly believe that there is not proof for either side, then don't believe either of them. Abstain judgement until the evidence is enough in your opinion. That's what someone who's looking for the truth really does. If there's no substantial evidence either direction, then you must remain neutral until that evidence is unearthed. Of course, I expect what you really meant by this was, "I can have whatever opinion I want because Square hasn't said that the possibility wasn't there and you can't call it wrong 'cause there's no evidence on your side either." That's not quite how it works, but if you want to go and spout your theories like they're fact when the people who accept the Compilation as canon know that the Compilation says differently, you can't expect us to actually believe them or even consider them the least bit credible. That's the sacrifice you're making by "ignoring" the Compilation.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

And I'm not the one defiantly defending things. You are the one defiantly defending a version of events which no longer stands as official. It's like defending Cloud's Kalm retelling as official when there is a more accurate version in existence.

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Get the F*** outta here.

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No. Bite me. Come up with better arguments.

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better arguments? you just said i should indeed cover my ears, close my eyes, and envision last order in my head when that scene comes up.

no thanks. the scene in the game is more entertaining than envisioning an alternative event.

i'd imagine your experience when you play FFVII now must really suck - constantly turning away from your screen shouting "NO! I Refuse to accept this!"

because the truth is, if im supposed to take all the retcons into account, a considerable amount of the game no longer makes sense.

this all doesn't change the fact that all of this is irrelevant to what the game depicts and suggests - and that is not going to change until the remake.

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Originally Posted by HowlingMonkey

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Originally Posted by Paul

anyway it may technically be considered canon, since they own the story. and i'm loathe to disagree with this point, but i'm afraid i have to. you can't take a really great book, then piss and vomit all over it 10 years later, and go "HEY I WROTE THE ORIGINAL, SO THIS PISS AND VOMIT IS CANON"

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Hey, if you want to ignore the Compilation then that's all right. If it works for you then you can take FFVII to be the whole story and that's legitimate. In your head. But as soon as you start arguing theories with other people then the Compilation supercedes your own interpretation of the universe and you won't be able to argue with anything that directly contradicts the Compilation. You can believe any theories you want that ignore the Compilation, but you will never be able to get others to agree with you.

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but the compilation contradicts the game!! so what if i come up with a theory that doesn't contradict the game, but contradicts the compilation (which wasn't really thought about much, big dollar signs gettin in the way of the design team, stoppin them from workin properly... )

plus, i mean surely any self respecting fan of FF7 rejects the compilation? i mean maybe some don't, but surely those are the exception rather than the rule.

surely the rule is still that FF7 the game is the final word? don't tell me the opposite is true... i couldn't live in such a sick, sick world.

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Originally Posted by Paul

but the compilation contradicts the game!! so what if i come up with a theory that doesn't contradict the game, but contradicts the compilation (which wasn't really thought about much, big dollar signs gettin in the way of the design team, stoppin them from workin properly... )

plus, i mean surely any self respecting fan of FF7 rejects the compilation? i mean maybe some don't, but surely those are the exception rather than the rule.

surely the rule is still that FF7 the game is the final word? don't tell me the opposite is true... i couldn't live in such a sick, sick world.

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If you cannot live in such a sick world, then kill yourself. Because this is the way the world is, you liking it or not.
It doesn't mater if it make sense or don't, and it doesn't mater if some parts of the Comp. contradict the game. It's still canon/official. You can say that the story is crap, or is full of plot-holes, or etc. But you cannot say it isn't canon, because you don't have the authority to decide this.

The Compilation is being created by the same people that made FFVII, so it is canon. You, Charcoal, Bolivar, Ryushikaze, etc. can cover your ears and go "lalalala i'm not hearing you!!" all you want, and it will not change anything. You guys don't work for SE and you didn't create FFVII, so what all of you think and belive about the story is not important, sorry.

Um, I believe Ryushikaze is arguing the same thing as you, my dear.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

better arguments? you just said i should indeed cover my ears, close my eyes, and envision last order in my head when that scene comes up.

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You were the one who asked if you should. And technically, you should. Since the LO version is now official.

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no thanks. the scene in the game is more entertaining than envisioning an alternative event.

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Then enjoy that version, and watch it. But know that it is no longer how that scene plays out according to the people who made the game.

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i'd imagine your experience when you play FFVII now must really suck - constantly turning away from your screen shouting "NO! I Refuse to accept this!"

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Even were I required to do that, I only have to do it once. And child, stop really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.ning me. That is not my position. Nor has it ever been.

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because the truth is, if im supposed to take all the retcons into account, a considerable amount of the game no longer makes sense.

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I'm sure you wouldn't be opposed to explaining what portions of the game are rendered asensical by the compilation, then.

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this all doesn't change the fact that all of this is irrelevant to what the game depicts and suggests - and that is not going to change until the remake.

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And this is a red herring. The game can depict a thing all it likes. If that thing has been retconned, then the retcon now stands as the way it happened.

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Originally Posted by Paul

but the compilation contradicts the game!! so what if i come up with a theory that doesn't contradict the game, but contradicts the compilation (which wasn't really thought about much, big dollar signs gettin in the way of the design team, stoppin them from workin properly... )

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Then your theory contradicts the storyline of FF7 as it stands, since the compilations are a canon portion of the story.

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plus, i mean surely any self respecting fan of FF7 rejects the compilation? i mean maybe some don't, but surely those are the exception rather than the rule.

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And what are you basing this conclusion on, good sir? I'm most curious.

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surely the rule is still that FF7 the game is the final word? don't tell me the opposite is true... i couldn't live in such a sick, sick world.

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The opposite is true. Newer overrides older. Unless S-E released a statement to the effect that the older is true, and even then it would still be a case of the newer official stance overriding the older, save that in this case, the newest stance would in fact be a return to the older stance, if that makes any sense to you.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Um, I believe Ryushikaze is arguing the same thing as you, my dear.

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Speaking of someone covering their ears...
Crystal is still upset about the thread in which I disagreed with his unsupported claim that Sephiroth had the powers of Omega, among other bad blood.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Um, I believe Ryushikaze is arguing the same thing as you, my dear.

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Yes, he is. But like Charcoal, Bolivar and the others, exist some facts in the Compilation that he choosed to ignore just because he don't like them.

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Mirage

Um, I believe Ryushikaze is arguing the same thing as you, my dear.

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Yes, he is. But like Charcoal, Bolivar and the others, exist some facts in the Compilation that he choosed to ignore just because he don't like them.

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No. There exist some claims you have never supported. I accept Sephypoo is the strongest villain. This does not mean he has every single power every other foe in the compilation.
There are also several other claims that you've made that I'd be perfectly willing to accept if you could provide evidence of their veracity. Without evidence, they are nothing, and so I treat them as such.

k i understand now

basically square know their market perfectly. here's me, thinkin' FF7 was something genuinely great. 10 years later see some souless obvious cash in sequels appear. i can see the purpose of them (to make money) so i'm not particularly bothered... but i still assume the fanbase will be smart enough to see it for what it is (bad).

to my horror, i find in fact i am in a minority, and square in fact knows its fanbase much better than i do! it's fan base would love every FF game to be like X-2. they cry as they listen to eyes on me while writing aeris revival fanfiction.

Your strawmen and ad homs aside, that doesn't exactly address or rebut anything above. Concession accepted until you decide to return to the discussion at hand.

And I'll say it again. FF7 was released to make money too. All FFs were.

of course it was, but with AC we're in strictly 'cash-in' territory. everyone with half a brain knows that the FF games are best without sequels. they're stand alone pieces of fiction and to expand upon them afterwards is to undermine them. i can appreciate that square don't care for their repuation if the cheques keep coming in. i can't appreciate that the fans enjoy the series being :skull::skull::skull::skull: on for a profit that they won't see any of. honestly, i expected better from you guys.

hope u all realise every time i debate FF7 from now on, i'm gonna be completely disregarding the compilation. anyone wishing to establish themselves as having posts worth reading, is welcome to do the same.

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Originally Posted by Paul

of course it was, but with AC we're in strictly 'cash-in' territory. everyone with half a brain knows that the FF games are best without sequels. they're stand alone pieces of fiction and to expand upon them afterwards is to undermine them. i can appreciate that square don't care for their repuation if the cheques keep coming in. i can't appreciate that the fans enjoy the series being :skull::skull::skull::skull: on for a profit that they won't see any of. honestly, i expected better from you guys.

hope u all realise every time i debate FF7 from now on, i'm gonna be completely disregarding the compilation. anyone wishing to establish themselves as having posts worth reading, is welcome to do the same.

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And herein is revealed the fatal flaw in your plan. We don't care what you think. Your opinion is, to be frank, meaningless.

Opinion is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Whether or not you like or dislike the compilation, whether you think FF games should never have sequels, or think they should have more of them is, in fact, irrelevant. None of it changes the fact that the compilation is part of the continuity.

So, please, stop trying to bombard us with emotional appeals and simply stick with the objective data. It can only improve your credibility.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

And herein is revealed the fatal flaw in your plan. We don't care what you think. Your opinion is, to be frank, meaningless.

Opinion is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Whether or not you like or dislike the compilation, whether you think FF games should never have sequels, or think they should have more of them is, in fact, irrelevant. None of it changes the fact that the compilation is part of the continuity.

So, please, stop trying to bombard us with emotional appeals and simply stick with the objective data. It can only improve your credibility.

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like my credibility could be improved by the likes of you! :lol:

established fact #1: the compilation is canon because square said so

established fact #2: the compilation does not correlate from FF7

established fact #3: the compilation is major retcon

established fact #4: no matter what kind of retcon lack of correlation
bollocks you try to pull off with your own work, some people will still stand by you

established fact #5: for some people, common sense / personal enjoyment / artistic integrity, will never be as good as rulebooks or objective data

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Originally Posted by Paul

like my credibility could be improved by the likes of you! :lol:

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I'm not the one damaging your credibility. You are.

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established fact #1: the compilation is canon because square said so

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This is true, based on the nature of what canon is. However, it is bad form that you've basically reduced this entire discussion to sound bites devoid of proof.

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established fact #2: the compilation does not correlate from FF7

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Quite bad form, as this is an unsourced claim, not an established fact.

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established fact #3: the compilation is major retcon

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This is also a claim. You need to support this claim.

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established fact #4: no matter what kind of retcon lack of correlation
bollocks you try to pull off with your own work, some people will still stand by you

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See, you're getting into emotional appeals again. You're supposed to be avoiding those.

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established fact #5: for some people, common sense / personal enjoyment / artistic integrity, will never be as good as rulebooks or objective data

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Because, y'know what? It usually smegging isn't. Opinions mean jack :skull::skull::skull::skull: next to hard data. Your entire argument thus far has been based on emotional appeals to how you'd like it to be, rather than what the facts are saying. Even your "established facts" are emotional appeals, claims without substance, and veiled character attacks.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

I'm not the one damaging your credibility. You are.

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no the point i was making here, is that you implied by agreeing with you, that my credibility would improve. i put it to you that my credibility is better for disagreeing with you, or just generally better anyway. and by agreeing with you i'd be on a slippery slope.

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This is true, based on the nature of what canon is. However, it is bad form that you've basically reduced this entire discussion to sound bites devoid of proof.

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irrelevant

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Quite bad form, as this is an unsourced claim, not an established fact.

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rufus lives, sephiroth now enjoys black lipstick, lots of other concepts have been altered but i can't be arsed going through each one because it means i'd have to watch that nightmare over again

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This is also a claim. You need to support this claim.

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k i will. the story of advent children, in places, does not follow correctly from that of FF7. i don't have the time, nor am i bored or lonely enough to go around digging up the details, anyone who has seen AC KNOWS THIS IS TRUE even if they LIKE IT. therefore, the changes are "RET CON"

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See, you're getting into emotional appeals again. You're supposed to be avoiding those.

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you sir, are one of the most arrogant and patronising human beings i have ever had the misfortune to disagree with on the internet. do you have credibility? how? who gave it? do they have it themselves to give it? do not be afraid of the answers.

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Because, y'know what? It usually smegging isn't. Opinions mean jack :skull::skull::skull::skull: next to hard data. Your entire argument thus far has been based on emotional appeals to how you'd like it to be, rather than what the facts are saying. Even your "established facts" are emotional appeals, claims without substance, and veiled character attacks.

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hahaha. you're a classic, mate. go get laid. there is no rulebook for that, though.. might find it difficult.

anyway no more personal wars in this thread, i'm out bye. you can have the last word, i'm sure it'll be boring.

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rufus lives, sephiroth now enjoys black lipstick, lots of other concepts have been altered but i can't be arsed going through each one because it means i'd have to watch that nightmare over again

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There is no indication at the end of FF7 that Rufus either lives or dies. It's left open-ended, so that is not a contradiction. And it's the nature of storytelling to have your villains survive circumstances that would kill people in real life (just look at how often Dr. Doom's come back to menace the FF). As for Sephiroth's black lipstick, I have no idea where your sourcing that but the FF7 graphics are so limited that the characters don't even have lips to wear lipstick on.

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anyone who has seen AC KNOWS THIS IS TRUE even if they LIKE IT

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I've seen AC, but I must confess I never gave enough of a toss about FF7 to notice such things. And even if there were gaping plot holes, it would still be canon, by sheer definition.

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hahaha. you're a classic, mate. go get laid. there is no rulebook for that, though.. might find it difficult.

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Wow, that's not even a veiled character attack!

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Originally Posted by Paul

no the point i was making here, is that you implied by agreeing with you, that my credibility would improve. i put it to you that my credibility is better for disagreeing with you, or just generally better anyway. and by agreeing with you i'd be on a slippery slope.

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No, you can still disagree and have credibility. Just not the way you are engaged in it.

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irrelevant

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Not at all. The nature of what canon is and how it operates is entirely relevant.

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rufus lives,

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Wheras he was previously unconfirmed. Fake deaths are an RPG cliche.

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sephiroth now enjoys black lipstick,

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How is this a retcon?

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lots of other concepts have been altered but i can't be arsed going through each one because it means i'd have to watch that nightmare over again

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Concession accepted.

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k i will. the story of advent children, in places, does not follow correctly from that of FF7. i don't have the time, nor am i bored or lonely enough to go around digging up the details, anyone who has seen AC KNOWS THIS IS TRUE even if they LIKE IT. therefore, the changes are "RET CON"

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This is not substantiating a claim. Concession accepted.

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you sir, are one of the most arrogant and patronising human beings i have ever had the misfortune to disagree with on the internet. do you have credibility? how? who gave it? do they have it themselves to give it? do not be afraid of the answers.

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Intellectual honesty gives me credibility. Also, Ad Hom. Bad form.

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hahaha. you're a classic, mate. go get laid. there is no rulebook for that, though.. might find it difficult.

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Took you longer than expected to bring that one up, but in the end, you did bring it up. Seriously, kid. Running off while tossing insults over your shoulder fools no one.

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anyway no more personal wars in this thread, i'm out bye. you can have the last word, i'm sure it'll be boring.

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If this is the grand sum of what you intended to bring to the table, good riddance, and concession accepted on everything.

thanks guys, it's been a pleasure. i look forward to next time.

And here I thought you were gonna let me have the last word.

Why is is that most every time someone says "I'm leaving, you can have the last word", they come back to get the last word?

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Originally Posted by Paul

you sir, are one of the most arrogant and patronising human beings i have ever had the misfortune to disagree with on the internet.

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So true.

But you forgot to say "hypocrite".

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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Originally Posted by Paul

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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Why? Just because i disagree with you? Grow up.

You know, we'll never reach an agreement because it's all a matter of opinion.

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Originally Posted by Paul

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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:skull::skull::skull::skull:, man, you really do want to have the last word, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Charcoal

You know, we'll never reach an agreement because it's all a matter of opinion.

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No. It's not. This is a matter of canon, and canon is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of official fiat.

I won't even bother repeating myself again...

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Originally Posted by The Crystal

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Originally Posted by Paul

indeed. takes one to know one, as they say

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Why? Just because i disagree with you? Grow up.

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actually, i was referring to myself as a hypocrite, saying i must be all of those things to recognise it in somebody else.

but it's clear that i've already been stereotyped as some sort of forum n00b who is wrong no matter what, so it's cool guys keep it up whatever.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

No. It's not. This is a matter of canon, and canon is not a matter of opinion. It is a matter of official fiat.

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it seems to me you are obsessed with squaresoft's vision, and your own, or other people's interpretation or enjoyment from the games comes secondary. i find it amusing that you accuse me of being over emotional, yet you yourself are completely cold. the only reason we are even debating in this thread, and that this thread has reached page 5, is because (as has already been said) FF7 at one time, meant an awful lot to an awful lot of people.

now you can say "square decided to change all that, and make it canon" and yes, you're right, it's canon (i admitted that a few pages ago, but i was still getting the "OMG IST' CAONN!!!1111" replies for a while...). but what is and isn't canon, to me, isn't as important as people's experiences and enjoyment of the game. squaresoft have the authority to do whatever they want with this, but Crystal is right. at the end of the day it's the opinion of the fans (either way), that really matters. not squaresoft. without the fans, there is no squaresoft and there is no final fantasy. they pay the money, and ultimately it is their experience of the game that is the only rewarding thing to be taken from this whole videogame industry.

:skull : : skull: : skull:

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Originally Posted by Paul

but it's clear that i've already been stereotyped as some sort of forum n00b who is wrong no matter what, so it's cool guys keep it up whatever.

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Actually, what is clear is that you're seeking to find an excuse aside from your own behavior for your treatment.

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it seems to me you are obsessed with squaresoft's vision, and your own, or other people's interpretation or enjoyment from the games comes secondary.

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And it seems to me that you really smegging enjoy making straw men of my position.

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i find it amusing that you accuse me of being over emotional,

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Another really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking.. I did not say you were over emotional, I said you were attempting to employ emotional appeals.

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yet you yourself are completely cold. the only reason we are even debating in this thread, and that this thread has reached page 5, is because (as has already been said) FF7 at one time, meant an awful lot to an awful lot of people.

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Which is completely irrelevant to whether or not it has been retconned and whether or not those retcons stand as canon.
And to be frank, most of the reason why this thread reached 5 pages is because Charcoal insisted on engaging in a debate without comprehending the terms of the debate.

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now you can say "square decided to change all that, and make it canon" and yes, you're right, it's canon (i admitted that a few pages ago, but i was still getting the "OMG IST' CAONN!!!1111" replies for a while...). but what is and isn't canon, to me, isn't as important as people's experiences and enjoyment of the game.

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Then you shouldn't be in this debate in the first place. You should be in a thread about people's experiences of the game, instead.

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squaresoft have the authority to do whatever they want with this, but Crystal is right. at the end of the day it's the opinion of the fans (either way), that really matters. not squaresoft. without the fans, there is no squaresoft and there is no final fantasy. they pay the money, and ultimately it is their experience of the game that is the only rewarding thing to be taken from this whole videogame industry.

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Yes, but it is not the fans who make the story. If it was, we're have the Aerith revivication version of FF7. We'd have the Jenova possessed Sephy version of FF7.
Also, you are employing a rather massive logical disconnect in the above.

you're repeating yourself now.

yes the retcon is canon. i admitted this a few pages ago. then i admitted to admitting this a few pages ago and pointed out how people were still saying "YEAH BUT ITS CANON".

and how do you reply? BY TELLING ME ITS CANON? WELL SIR, YOU WIN THE PRIZE!!!!

where's the logical disconnection?

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Originally Posted by Paul

you're repeating yourself now.

yes the retcon is canon. i admitted this a few pages ago. then i admitted to admitting this a few pages ago and pointed out how people were still saying "YEAH BUT ITS CANON".

and how do you reply? BY TELLING ME ITS CANON? WELL SIR, YOU WIN THE PRIZE!!!!

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Seriously? Are you reading my posts? It does not look like it from this reply. Because I at no point declared anything about the canon in my previous post, aside from noting that the feelings of people about FF7 are irrelevant to a discussion of said canon.
Granted, I should not expect great reading skills from you. You did get "over emotional" from "emotional appeals" after all.

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where's the logical disconnection?

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Where you go from "They pay money" to "Their experience of the game that is the only rewarding thing to be taken from this whole videogame industry."
The latter does not follow from the former. You will have to show how the former means the latter if you wish the statement to stand.

There are also the several times you go from my statement to a complete distortion of my statement, but I suspect that stems more from poor reading comprehension than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Ryushikaze

Seriously? Are you reading my posts? It does not look like it from this reply. Because I at no point declared anything about the canon in my previous post, aside from noting that the feelings of people about FF7 are irrelevant to a discussion of said canon.
Granted, I should not expect great reading skills from you. You did get "over emotional" from "emotional appeals" after all.


Where you go from "They pay money" to "Their experience of the game that is the only rewarding thing to be taken from this whole videogame industry."
The latter does not follow from the former. You will have to show how the former means the latter if you wish the statement to stand.

There are also the several times you go from my statement to a complete distortion of my statement, but I suspect that stems more from poor reading comprehension than anything else.

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k here's me:
"without the fans, there is no squaresoft and there is no final fantasy."

now allow me to explain what i meant by this. i meant square is a company that makes money. if final fantasy did not sell (ie was not bought by the fans) they would not make money, and thus, they would not make games. therefore, final fantasy would not exist without the fans.

i had assumed someone of such a higher form of intellect would have understood what i meant, but obviously not. as for "the fans experience being the only rewarding thing to come from the videogame industry"... well, okay you could be technical and say "the designers feel a sense of achievement!" or "they get paid!" or all that kind of thing. but basically what i was saying is that the most positive part of the game industry, is the fans experience and enjoyment of said games. that is what the entire thing revolves around really, it's an entertainment business and the main function of it is to entertain.

now that i've explained these two quite obvious statements properly, can we just give this whole thing a rest? i'm bored with being patronised

I think everyone needs a time out here. Paul, you say you don't like being patronized, so don't bother reading this thread. Everyone's getting a little emotional here.

i'm cool with this thread man, just this guy in particular

anyway yeah i had noticed it was turning into a bit of a shambles, my bad.

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Originally Posted by Paul

k here's me:
"without the fans, there is no squaresoft and there is no final fantasy."

now allow me to explain what i meant by this. i meant square is a company that makes money. if final fantasy did not sell (ie was not bought by the fans) they would not make money, and thus, they would not make games. therefore, final fantasy would not exist without the fans.

i had assumed someone of such a higher form of intellect would have understood what i meant, but obviously not. as for "the fans experience being the only rewarding thing to come from the videogame industry"... well, okay you could be technical and say "the designers feel a sense of achievement!" or "they get paid!" or all that kind of thing. but basically what i was saying is that the most positive part of the game industry, is the fans experience and enjoyment of said games. that is what the entire thing revolves around really, it's an entertainment business and the main function of it is to entertain.

now that i've explained these two quite obvious statements properly, can we just give this whole thing a rest? i'm bored with being patronised

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Well, if you're bored with being patronized, then stop misreading what I write.

I completely understood what your statements meant. There is not, however, a logical flow between the two statements. I was asking you to provide the logical flow from "Fans support the industry" to "the ONLY rewarding thing is fan experience". Maybe I'm not being blunt enough. I contest your claim that "the fans experience being the only rewarding thing to come from the videogame industry" and wish for you to support it. Because you have not, but your sentence is phrased to suggest that the previous evidences the latter.

And yet again, I point to the fact that our enjoyment is irrelevant to the canonicity of the event. Greedo, sadly, shot first.