"Don't blame us. Blame yourself or God."

I've noticed a lot of threads discussing the differences between the two versions of Final Fantasy Tactics, but, perhaps because I'm a geek when it comes to English, I was just wondering how people felt about the differences in the translation in particular, especially in regards to the new translations.

For example, a lot of people absolutely loved the quote "Don't blame us. Blame yourself or God." The new translation ditched this in favor of, "Forgive me. 'Tis your birth and faith that wrong you, not I." I personally prefer the latter. It's far more elegant and still manages to keep the same meaning.

How do you feel about the translation? What old quotes do you miss? What new quotes do you prefer?

They changed the whole dialogue to be more in that tone tho. For the PSP version, the new line works better because the whole translation was redone. Personally, I rather like the original like because it just felt so "Delita" and really kinda set the stage for his actions later in the game. "Forgive me, tis your birth and faith that wrong you" sounds so.. I dunno, nice? Like hes honestly sorry that he is doing what he has to do. Whereas the line "Dont blame me, blame yourself, or god" is much more of a "deal with it" attitude, which I think fits Delita more than an apologetic tone

The first few words of each line really sets the mood and emotion to his action. "Forgive me" = I'm sorry, "Dont blame me" = Your problem, not mine- deal with it.

Delita is much more of a "deal with it" kind of guy than "I'm so sorry I had to do this" (At least thats how I see him)

^But I think he had a soft spot for Ovelia. If it had been anyone else he would have said stfu. In a more elegant way of course. I mean, I dont know if people would argue that he actually didnt care about Ovelia and was using her purely to become Queen. But I think he cared about Ovelia -and- used her to become Queen.

One thing I didnt like about FFT's script was the use of words with -this- in them. They used it too often and the eloquence was hindered by it a little bit.

I prefer the new version.

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Originally Posted by Gilthanes

They changed the whole dialogue to be more in that tone tho. For the PSP version, the new line works better because the whole translation was redone. Personally, I rather like the original like because it just felt so "Delita" and really kinda set the stage for his actions later in the game. "Forgive me, tis your birth and faith that wrong you" sounds so.. I dunno, nice? Like hes honestly sorry that he is doing what he has to do. Whereas the line "Dont blame me, blame yourself, or god" is much more of a "deal with it" attitude, which I think fits Delita more than an apologetic tone

The first few words of each line really sets the mood and emotion to his action. "Forgive me" = I'm sorry, "Dont blame me" = Your problem, not mine- deal with it.

Delita is much more of a "deal with it" kind of guy than "I'm so sorry I had to do this" (At least thats how I see him)

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That would sum up the difference as I see it. And for the record I also prefer the original. I'm always a sucker for cold blunt one liners.

Try watching CSI: Miami one time! :p

Main character has good one-liners, heh :choc:!!!

I felt that the original line was far more memorable, yet, at the same time, was less poetic and elegant than its newer counterpart.

The newer translation is certainly closer to what would've actually been said. But I do prefer the original translation, mostly out of nostalgia.

I definitely like the old dialogue better. The new translation did help to clear up some of the characters meanings in areas but I find that ironic as most of it is some funky double talk. I just don't don't think it's cute to be as wordy as possible when trying to express the most simple ideas.

I'll go against the norm here and say I actually enjoy the new translation better. The dialogue has better immersion and I feel it helps characterize better. Delita seems less of an ass hole and more of a revolutionary in the new translation. I also enjoy the better background depth given to characters, Agrias being a member of the Lionsguard instead of just the Royal guards (which is what she is) sounds better. It took awhile to get used to some translations but overall I feel it makes for a better experience overall. I really feel like I'm playing the game for the first time (except this time I know what I'm doing) and its been a fun ride so far. Then again, I'm a sucker for "ye old' english" ;)

Nostalgia is fine and all but if its crap its crap and the PS1 FFT localization was definetly craptaculer:rolleyes2

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I also enjoy the better background depth given to characters, Agrias being a member of the Lionsguard instead of just the Royal guards (which is what she is) sounds better.

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I am not sure if I would call that a feature of the new translation, as the old translation had a naming convention problem — it stated in various places that Agrias was a member of a knighthood; however, the new translation makes that clearer by calling it something less generic and closer to the original —

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Originally Posted by Roogle

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I also enjoy the better background depth given to characters, Agrias being a member of the Lionsguard instead of just the Royal guards (which is what she is) sounds better.

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I am not sure if I would call that a feature of the new translation, as the old translation had a naming convention problem — it stated in various places that Agrias was a member of a knighthood; however, the new translation makes that clearer by calling it something less generic and closer to the original —

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I know its not grand but, naming the knighthood sounds better than just saying she's a part of it. I don't know why, but adding title makes it sound more important. I also like hoy we now have Order of the Northern Sky and the Order of the Southern Sky cause it makes their rivalry sound more profound (granted the original is only due to the authors limiting space when translating) but Gafgarion coming from the Order of Eastern Sky makes the military sound much more connected. Basically, the original felt like they threw out names cause the Orders needed names, the translated shows how the military is quite organized and connected. The original game sometimes feels like a battle between city-states whose partnership has ended but with the new translation it is even more apparent its a civil war. I'm just saying the translation fleshes it out more to make it feel less confusing :D

Yes, I agree. I think that the older translation included the names of the various organizations, but only transliterated from Japanese to English — that is why we had weird, foreign sounding names like the Hokuten Knights.

Wait, how does Delita's ne line sound nice? Thats like, the most hollow "I'm sorry" I've ever heard in my life. Based off that line, he's still kind of an ass.

That is his personality in both the Playstation version and the Playstation Portable version. Regardless, when you are speaking to princess, you must mind your words whether you mean them or not!

I LOVE the original dialouge better. All this medieval drek is just pointless... It's basically Squares' way of trying to make it connect more to FFXII rather than FFXII should have tried to connect more to FFT.

Since most 'newbies' who totally ignored the original FFT in favor of FFVIII (UGH! 'Projectile-vomits') or FFVII (cash-cow milked dry, finally I hope).

It's because of this dialouge change that I JUST CAN'T get into this game like I used to... It's like going to the movie version of your favorite book from long ago that's just been... ARGH! I find myself trying to remember the original Engrish translation saying... Wait, they didn't say that...

It ain't hate but loved by the original fans who are gonna buy this game, then don't ruin it... It's like taking the "Clumsy Storm-Stooper" from Star Wars: A New Hope"; or "Take that you Spoony Bard" out of FFIV.

What really it's making it difficult for me to keep playing is I'm afraid of how MUCH they've change the religious subject of the story... It raised great questions. And I'd hate to see them 'tone it down' or deviate from that original plotline.

You mean you prefer a substandard translation rather than one that actually carries through with the original intent? This isn't a matter of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The original was broken, in many ways. The localization of the original game was piss poor, no matter how you look at it. Certainly this was rather endearing in certain places, but the dialogue was shoddy. I think the new translation more accurately reflects Matsuno's original vision.

I think the original dialog was crap, and that people shouldn't judge these things based on nostalgia. The PSP version does a MUCH better job at conveying the intent of the Japanese dialog. The Ye Olde English feel was what the original game was going for, and it sounds much more elegant than "Blame yourself or God." (Which doesn't even sound grammatically correct, even though it fundamentally is)

The line does still basically translate back to "Let it go, it's your fault". But yeah, the tone's not Delita at all. Delita's meant to be a common man who's there at the grace of someone else's charity, if memory serves.

Since everyone wants to nitpicky, yes that was a crappy localization, the new game doesn't have and Ye Old English fell because Old English looks and sounds like German, so unless you know German your better off with the Middle English feel, and if you want the true feeling or intent your just gonna have to learn Japanese and play the Japanese version. I don't like shoddy dialogue or scripting of course but I also like a less convoluted format, it ain't nostalgia homies just plain linguistic preference.

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Originally Posted by Ziekfried

I don't like shoddy dialogue or scripting of course but I also like a less convoluted format, ...

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Well said, thats about where I'm at.

I like the "old" feeling of this translation. Which is rather strange, because FF XII's translation, which was probably going for the same kind of feeling, at times irritates me. The reason is that for a non-native English speaker like I am it is unncessarily convoluted and obscure.
This new translation isn't obscure in the very least, and yet it sounds refined and elegant.

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Originally Posted by Lord Rimoah

I LOVE the original dialouge better. All this medieval drek is just pointless... It's basically Squares' way of trying to make it connect more to FFXII rather than FFXII should have tried to connect more to FFT.

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FFT's original localization was nigh-incomprehensible gibberish. I don't think that would have been a good style for FFXII to adopt.

FFXII's translation was genius IMO.

Better than Shakespeare.


FFT's new translation was good as well, but not quite as good as FFXII's.

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Originally Posted by Kawaii Ryûkishi

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Originally Posted by Lord Rimoah

I LOVE the original dialouge better. All this medieval drek is just pointless... It's basically Squares' way of trying to make it connect more to FFXII rather than FFXII should have tried to connect more to FFT.

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FFT's original localization was nigh-incomprehensible gibberish. I don't think that would have been a good style for FFXII to adopt.

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Aw c'mon Shmacky (I call everybody that like Bugs Bunny calls people Doc),you're better than that... You KNOW what I meant. I'm not referring to the BAD Translations I'm referring to the original dialouge that although mis-translated it didn't need a COMPLETE OVER-HAUL of dialect to try to transform it into Shakespeare.

Wow, I didn't know the new version was rendered so differently in terms of speech... and I don't like it.

First off, let me say, I've always felt that just throwing "thee"s and "thou"s and Shakespearian parsing for words into something set in a vaguely middle aged/renaissance type setting, ESPECIALLY a fantasy work, is rather dumb. It's like you're trying to add authenticity that can't really exist, because while in our middle ages people may have talked that way, who's to say they did in these? Beyond that, this may be further in the future in their world than the middle ages are in comparison to ours, and finally, to the people of the old world, hearing things that way wasn't different to them than how we hear things said in our dialects and slang today, so really it's not even anachronistic, much less a violation of theme to use "modern" English in an English game even if it is set in a time period further back.

As for the words themselves, that particular line disappoints me, because it communicates things about Delita's character. It's apologetic and polite, with room for interpretation of sarcasm. But Delita wasn't really any of those things. He's a utilitarian pragmatist, and rendering him as some kind of gentleman villain does an immense injustice to the harsh machiavellian practicality that characterized him.

Needless to say, I don't like it. =)

^I completely diagree with you there. The beauty of the translation gives it a weight and elegance that is truly fascinating to read. Its not like they throw 'thee' and 'thou' in there - its a masterfully translated work that sounds natural and powerful. I felt that many linguistical techniques were used successfully to heighten the effect.

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As for the words themselves, that particular line disappoints me, because it communicates things about Delita's character. It's apologetic and polite, with room for interpretation of sarcasm. But Delita wasn't really any of those things. He's a utilitarian pragmatist, and rendering him as some kind of gentleman villain does an immense injustice to the harsh machiavellian practicality that characterized him.

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I disagree with your claim that Delita was purely a utilitarian pragmatist. Quotes such as this about Ovelia: 'I know only this. To save her life I would gladly give my own' and 'Do you remember, Ramza, when your father showed us how to make a whistle of a blade of grass?'

He is actually a rather philosophical and emotional person. But he is also very logical and pragmatic, and that pragmatic side of him domninates his actions making them seem purely utilitarianistic. But, I feel, given the chance he is a very caring person who does care about humanity. It is only the circumstances that forced that change upon him.

Of course, at the end, Ovelia failed to realise this other side of him, with tragic consequences. While he was highly manipulative, he didnt enjoy being so. Thats a key difference.

Haha well the parsing and phrasing is a matter of taste, and there's really no debating that, so I won't bother countering there.

As far as Delita himself is concerned, I never once said he wasn't emotional, and honestly I think he has a greater grasp of each other character's motivations and even their self deceptions (Ramza is more than a little self righteous, and has pride/vanity issues imho). Unfortunately this degree of perspective tends to breed quite a bit of cynicism in people, and I think that at the end of the day, Delita weighed the worth of emotional attachment against the weight of responsibility of the state and came out deciding the latter was more important. Obviously he didn't stop "feeling" at that moment, but at no point in the story does he seem to have any problem sacrificing attachment for the sake of his vision of the "greater good." Being utilitarian doesn't mean you lack emotion, it means that you're capable of setting that emotion aside and making hard choices (be they wrong or right). Also keep in mind that the "remember when father taught us to play the reed flute" came before the death of Delita's sister, which I think played pretty much the greatest role in the hardening of his heart, but ultimately I think he was on a collision course with the machiavellian mindset he ends up with from the very beginning, regardless of her death. But yes, in the prologue and also fairly early in the main storyline, he lets his emotional side show through more, it's difficult to know if he was simply performing to get a desired response, or allowing a bit of his true feelings to shine through while still doing 'the practical thing'.

He's a complicated bastard.

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"remember when father taught us to play the reed flute"

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Like what you did there. :p

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it's difficult to know if he was simply performing to get a desired response, or allowing a bit of his true feelings to shine through while still doing 'the practical thing'.

He's a complicated bastard.

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Agreed.

I empathise a lot with him, because I feel I would do the same as he did in his position.

One thing I dont get is the bit where he says: 'All of them are swept up in a mighty current. I simply swim against it'.

Or something like that. What I dont get is that I dont think he does swim against the current. In fact, he swims with it, using the very tools of manipulation and deceit that the rest of them did.

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Or something like that. What I dont get is that I dont think he does swim against the current. In fact, he swims with it, using the very tools of manipulation and deceit that the rest of them did.

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Agreed, haha but I guess that's the thing about hypocrisy, you yourself are usually the last one to realize your worldview carries with it a double standard. I will say I think when talks about "the stream" he's referring more to the class divisions and biases than he is to the tools used by those individual classes. Let's face it, the Hokuten, Nanten, Shrine Knights, along with the Death Corps and all the other "freedom fighters" and radicals trying to escape oppression from higher classes use manipulation, the only difference in Delita's case is that he used it successfully. Ultimately I think "swimming against the stream" means he had bigger plans than being a token charity case for some noble family, or even a powerful leader in the church; he had his sights set on the greatest prize there was in Ivalice (debatable, of course, but in his eyes the greatest).

Actually... I too had thought those were his remade lines, but in fact, "Blame yourself, or God" lines were completely left out, only by some slight hacking can one see the translated line as it was meant to be in WoTL...
http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n...11604_0147.png

Porting the script and event instructions back to the PSX (except for the cutscenes of course) we've managed to find this little bit, which in my opinion this line fits his overly snarky, condescending attitude. (pretty much towards his own "bosses".)

But back to Delita himself...

I don't think he thought of himself as a tyrannic manipulator. Balmafula reproaches him once on using Ramza as he does after they meet at Zeltennia. Delita goes on to ignore her and tell her to leave him be. I had always thought he killed Ovelia for those reasons and those reasons only. "One day you'll toss me aside, just as you did Ramza!"

Notice Delita doesn't strike her until she says that. Delita seems to hate being told that he's a bad man of any sort. He really did not want to believe that Ramza's death was his fault, though her saying what she did probably brought up some old feelings which lay dormant, but regardless, a combination of reflex and rage took a hold and he plunged the knife into her. He wanted to believe himself to be a hero and would take that mantle in any way possible. When there are those that say adverse, it enrages him. Balmafula before and Ovelia at that point. Of course Ovelia had happened to stab him as well, to add fuel to the already raging forest fire.

I really like the original lines, but I've yet to play the new version. As far as the first line is concerned, I think that the old version was much more in character for Delita. He doesn't know or care about Agrias, so why should he be so nice to her?

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Originally Posted by JustAnotherCid

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Or something like that. What I dont get is that I dont think he does swim against the current. In fact, he swims with it, using the very tools of manipulation and deceit that the rest of them did.

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Agreed, haha but I guess that's the thing about hypocrisy, you yourself are usually the last one to realize your worldview carries with it a double standard. I will say I think when talks about "the stream" he's referring more to the class divisions and biases than he is to the tools used by those individual classes. Let's face it, the Hokuten, Nanten, Shrine Knights, along with the Death Corps and all the other "freedom fighters" and radicals trying to escape oppression from higher classes use manipulation, the only difference in Delita's case is that he used it successfully. Ultimately I think "swimming against the stream" means he had bigger plans than being a token charity case for some noble family, or even a powerful leader in the church; he had his sights set on the greatest prize there was in Ivalice (debatable, of course, but in his eyes the greatest).

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I always took that statement to mean that everyone is out for themselves at the cost of others, where as he is doing what he is doing to help Ivalice. My view of Delita was as a hero that saved Ivalice at the cost of his own soul. Both Ramza and Delita saved the world in their own way, but Delita didn't even get the reward of being able to feel like a hero after; however I don't think this is the popular perception of him.

I like the old dialog better. I only like the old out of fond gameplay memories.

The old.

I've played through the Playstation version about 30 times now so when I picked up the PSP version, it just felt to different. Its is an overall better translation but just doesn't feel right in my opinion.