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If someone believes something is ethically wrong for the wrong reasons, does that make that belief a stupid belief?
Side topic: Do you believe religion is a valid excuse for moral beliefs (say being against women wearing pants instead of dresses or burkas) without any logic behind them?
Since everyone's morals and ethics are relative, I don't think it makes them stupid.
They're not relative. Morals aren't just a set of rules you live by. They're what you believe to be right or wrong. If you believe pre-marital sex is morally wrong, it doesn't just mean you don't want to have sex before marriage, it means you think people who do have sex before marriage are doing something bad.
Fine, I'll bite. Religious people believe homosexuality is wrong because of the code of conduct, morals and such that their religion lays out. Does this make them stupid? No. Does it make them ignorant? Yes. I don't think stupid and ignorant are the same thing.
That is something very strange to say. If you have a belief.. and the belief says something, how can there be no logic behind them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
If it says: "Do not kill"
Is there any logic behind it? to ask that question is just stupid in itself.. the logic behind it is that you dont kill, so there is always logic behind it.. as the logic behind a rule is that you dont break it. why dont you kill.. because people die otherwise.. Why cant women wear pants in some religion.. i dont know, why dont you google it instead of making this thread, and actually learn something.
what you want to say is whether you see any logic behind it.. and without proper understanding and knowledge, which you obviously dont have.. you cant.
OOC--Im against the logic behind neck ties - theyre completely useless and you wear them to look "formal". They make it seem like if you dont wear a tie you look unprofessional, same thing with long hair and facial hair, "lets judge people by their appearance besides what theyre like as people", its like an accepted form of racism, it makes no sense!
Oh and i believe people can believe and do what they want as long as they dont hurt anyone try to force it on others. If the belief makes stupid and restricts them from ever wearing pants then so be it
Well everyone is entitled to his/her own set of beliefs and no single person is right enough to question that. I think what those people really need to do is to understand other people's beliefs, regardless of it being morally right or wrong based on their own's beliefs.
*deep breath* Morals and ethics are technically two different things. Long story short: morals are more or less decided by the community and your background. Thus if you were raised in a community where pre-martial sex is wrong, your morals include pre-marital sex as wrong. Yet, if you from a personal stance decide that pre-martial sex is right and have pre-martial sex, you are making an ethical choice. This would make your choice immoral but ethical.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
So yes, you can be moral but unethical; moral and ethical; immoral and unethical; or immoral but ethical.
[/tangent]
Oh, look, the logic behind the belief that killing is (generally) wrong. You just proved that there's a sensible reason to believe that it's wrong to kill people. Congratulations. Even though it appears to be a total fluke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
Go ahead and try to justify something like masturbation being wrong. Go ahead and outline why it's a bad thing that people shouldn't do. I know enough about it to know there's no good reason to be against it if done in the privacy of your own home with nobody around to be affected by it. If the people against it have had since the dawn of time to come up with a reason against it without lying (ie: claiming it makes you go blind) but the best they can do is "because I said so", odds are there is no good reason and therefor the belief that masturbation is wrong is stupid.Quote:
what you want to say is whether you see any logic behind it.. and without proper understanding and knowledge, which you obviously dont have.. you cant.
Actually, if you look at the socio-historical aspect of the Ten Commandments, there is logical reasons behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Oh, look, the logic behind the belief that killing is (generally) wrong. You just proved that there's a sensible reason to believe that it's wrong to kill people. Congratulations. Even though it appears to be a total fluke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
Very true. They were derived to promote harmony amongst the tribe/clan which allowed them to prosper. If there was rampant killings, adultery or stealing then the tribe would fall apart and they would be easy pickings for rival groups.
Something you might not know, as you are getting personal now. The pope is the one who says that.. There might be something in the bible, but alot of it is interpretation.. and as i dont follow the pope, i dont believe mastrubation is wrong. And you still havent gotten my point.. you obviously dont know the reason behind the morals(or ethics as i should say) that people have, and therefore just say its stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Oh, look, the logic behind the belief that killing is (generally) wrong. You just proved that there's a sensible reason to believe that it's wrong to kill people. Congratulations. Even though it appears to be a total fluke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
Go ahead and try to justify something like masturbation being wrong. Go ahead and outline why it's a bad thing that people shouldn't do. I know enough about it to know there's no good reason to be against it if done in the privacy of your own home with nobody around to be affected by it. If the people against it have had since the dawn of time to come up with a reason against it without lying (ie: claiming it makes you go blind) but the best they can do is "because I said so", odds are there is no good reason and therefor the belief that masturbation is wrong is stupid.Quote:
what you want to say is whether you see any logic behind it.. and without proper understanding and knowledge, which you obviously dont have.. you cant.
*snip*
[mulley]This may not be EoEO, but we still treat each other with respect. - Flying Mullet[/mulley]
*cough*
that will be all.
Yeah. And for the most part, they make a lot of sense. I think we can all agree that "Do not kill unjustly" has some pretty solid reasoning behind it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Summoner of LeviathanActually, if you look at the socio-historical aspect of the Ten Commandments, there is logical reasons behind them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Oh, look, the logic behind the belief that killing is (generally) wrong. You just proved that there's a sensible reason to believe that it's wrong to kill people. Congratulations. Even though it appears to be a total fluke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
What makes you assume that I don't know the reasoning behind it? I wasn't born yesterday. These aren't new ideas by any means. The anti-masturbation thing was to keep followers horny and making babies and increasing the ranks. It's still dumb.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's KnightSomething you might not know, as you are getting personal now. The pope is the one who says that.. There might be something in the bible, but alot of it is interpretation.. and as i dont follow the pope, i dont believe mastrubation is wrong. And you still havent gotten my point.. you obviously dont know the reason behind the morals(or ethics as i should say) that people have, and therefore just say its stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Oh, look, the logic behind the belief that killing is (generally) wrong. You just proved that there's a sensible reason to believe that it's wrong to kill people. Congratulations. Even though it appears to be a total fluke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knight
Go ahead and try to justify something like masturbation being wrong. Go ahead and outline why it's a bad thing that people shouldn't do. I know enough about it to know there's no good reason to be against it if done in the privacy of your own home with nobody around to be affected by it. If the people against it have had since the dawn of time to come up with a reason against it without lying (ie: claiming it makes you go blind) but the best they can do is "because I said so", odds are there is no good reason and therefor the belief that masturbation is wrong is stupid.Quote:
what you want to say is whether you see any logic behind it.. and without proper understanding and knowledge, which you obviously dont have.. you cant.
that comment.. thats how i know you dont know.
Self-contradiction, thy name is Roto13
Ive had enough of this now.. have fun in your own little world.
Like I said, feel free to explain it if you think you know the answer and it's not that.
One's moral is essentially their opinion on something that they relate to their sense of right and wrong. If an opinion can be stupid, so can one's sense of morale. Whether this moral opinion was taught to them by a preacher or experience, it has the ability to be perceived as stupid. Or, perhaps the more appropriate term here would be "dumb".
For your masturbation thing....
Some people find it morally wrong, especially for males. This is due to the fact that you're waisting sperm. On top of that, some people believe God sees everything you do, and that he looks down upon them for masturbating. While I disagree with this view, some people believe strongly in it, and it is logical. If you believe God is always watching you, and you don't believe in pre-marital sex, I can logically see how you could see masturbation as a bad thing as well.
So while that may not make logical sense and is just dumb to someone who doesn't have the same beliefs, I can understand why certain people do have logic behind it.
I mean, most people think it's morally wrong to cheat on a boyfriend/girlfriend or husband/wife. Yet some people find nothing wrong with swapping partners, being in open relationships, or in some religions, having multiple wives. To them they don't see logic in restricting yourself to one partner.
THE JACKEL
Another note on the masturbation bit:
Some Asian sects which practice martial arts view masturbation as a unwanted release of energy. They feel that the sexual desire and drive is a form of energy that is best expended through martial arts practice and combat rather than sexual exertion. They will even avoid any sexual interaction with another individual to save these energies as they can be better used in other activities.
Not to be a stick in the mud, but morals are not someone's opinion. You do not decide your own morals. Morals come from the community. There are many things affecting what someone's morals will be but they are all external.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kentarou
To go back to the thread topic at hand, the post-modernist in me wants to scream moral relativism which to a certain degree is true since one community will have different set of values due to having different influences. To go to roto's question at hand, it provides us with a problem because to say that their moral or ethics are based on "wrong reasons" is to make a judgement on what is right and wrong and superimpose such judgement onto some other system without considering their own differences and such. So to actually answer this question to any extent there would exist the need to elucidate what is meant by "wrong reasons". Are we referring to the immorality of masturbation based on old misunderstandings of human anatomy, as per the Bible, or referring to ones own moral or ethical basis?
I guess we just have a different idea of what morals are, then. But to me, it does seem to just be an opinion. Just as with opinions, they are derived from where you live. Everything about a person is derived from where they live, and who they meet. Their likes, dislikes, everything. Their sense of right and wrong also stems from this, and that is their set of morals.
All of your anti-masturbation reasons are ridiculous.
Just thought I'd point that out.
You're just coming across as butthurt from Evastio's comment in the other thread
I believe that we should worry about maintaining our own moral beliefs and the moral beliefs of others that we love or care about in some way, shape, or form.
Please do not make inappropriate comments about other members.
Damn right that kind of :skull::skull::skull::skull: pisses me off and offends me. Did anyone think that was a secret?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nominus Experse
Religion is a valid excuse for almost anything.
Also, Moral beliefs are justified by the fact that they exist, not their reason for existing or what they pertain to.
You don't have to call Evastio stupid and ignorant though, do you? Why do you call him stupid just because he is different from you? That's like another form of racism if you ask me.
It's not really racism, if you ask me. Prejudice, sure, but a different kind of prejudice. Like, a prejudice against implied prejudice.
But I think this is only going to get messy from here on out. If I were a Mod of some sort, I'd probably close this.
Load of crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Araciel
I didn't call Evastio stupid, but he has at least one ridiculously idiotic belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagensyg
No U.
But Evastio said that he was OK with people having same-sex relations around him, he just said he wouldn't do it himself, so not really a prejudice, it's just him taking his stance. Ah, there we go! A nice and short definition for morals! Someone taking their stance about a subject. FINISHQuote:
Originally Posted by Kentarou
Actually, Loony Bob encouraged that someone make a thread about this discussion.Quote:
But I think this is only going to get messy from here on out. If I were a Mod of some sort, I'd probably close this.
Edit
@Roto13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Sorry, I misread these.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13Nope.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Religion is not a license to be a dumbass. It's so annoying when people try to use their religion as an excuse for this kind of belief.
"I think I should be able to murder prostitutes."
"You're a horrible person."
"No, it's ok, it's in the Bible."
"Oh, well in that case, it's alright then."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Loony BoB's a newbie! :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagensyg
As far as I'm concerned, people can believe what they want. They can disagree with what I do if they wish to, it's not going to stop me from doing it and it's possible that I might disagree with something that they do, too!
I'm afraid to answer because Roto's just gonna dominate me. :crying2:
However, I'll try to answer the side topic as best as I can: I don't think religion should influence peoples' morals, although it's pretty obvious that religion does influence it here in Texas :mad:. I think morals should come from inside yourself and what your perspective, brain, and heart suggest. For instance, my family is very protestant and they feel that being gay or bisexual is morally wrong. Why? Because they're afraid of non-heterosexuality because the bible says it's it a bad thing. I think listening to the bible is wrong (in this situation) because it's like you're letting the bible speak for you. People shouldn't let religion influence their morals. They should let their opinions and feelings influence them.
If religion doesn't influence your morals then what good is it? A good book to read when you're bored?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambone
All told belief doesn't necessarily have to be logical, especially with respect to morality. Morality is derived mainly from cultural background. What is culturally acceptable for one group and culturally unacceptable for another can be equally ridiculous, illogical and still be a moral belief.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
I agree with this. However I also think that it is justifiable to say that, in Roto's opinion, that belief is stupid. If one person can have a belief another person can also have a belief. So to Roto, it is stupid. He is just as much entitled to his belief as Evastio is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
Hooray moral relativism!
The important aspect to look at here, with respect to where this whole thing started, is the context of what everyone said. Evastio said he thought homosexual sex was wrong. Roto said that was a stupid thing to think. Roto never called Evastio stupid, and Evastio never specifically suggested Roto13 was a bad person. Even so, expressing some of those opinions can end up being very hurtful to people to hold them. Within the context of the rules of EoFF (our own little culture? xD) it was wrong for both of them to say what they said because it demonstrated disrespect for another member or group of members.
Like FM said, it's all relative. Some people believe sex before marriage is morally wrong and some people think that is stupid. It all depends on what stances you yourself take on issues as to how stupid someones elses stance on same issues are or not. Anything can seem stupid and almost anything will have some form of justification that people will buy in to and others won't. I don't really care.
I was only using sexuality as an example. That doesn't mean that I think the whole bible wrong. There are many parts that I agree with. Sorry. Didn't specify.:laughing:
Well, by this I'm assuming you are a Christian and you believe that both Testaments are true so. . .Quote:
Originally Posted by Hambone
Does it make sense to only follow some of God's rules and disregard the others?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul in 2Timothy 3:16
Sorry to combat you like this Hambone.
This needs emphasis, cause I'm still gonna convert Evastio's Brawl screenshots to JPEGs for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fire_of_avalon
*Feels stupid* :crying2:
Let's see...yes?
moral relativism is like that king of the hill episode where the soccer coach is like 'we've already got the tie, no need to hurt anyone's feelings'
I dunno. I like to think the answer is "no", but that's when I ignore groups like The National Vanguard...
I believe, for example, that fighting is wrong. I don't feel good when I hurt people, even in self defense, and so I will try very hard not to get into physical fights. Sometimes I make the hypothesis that I feel so strongly against fighting that despite a 'valid' reason in terms of my personal morality (ie helping a friend), I'll still feel like crap after.
A lot of other people fight. There are lots of people who fight for sport. That, to me, is the dynamic opposite of what I personally believe in. However I don't feel morally outraged. In fact I will probably watch people fight. Then again this might not be a fair comparison because sport fighting != self defense fighting or aggressive assault fighting.
The point however, is that there should be moral 'truths' you believe in that aren't so important as to be objectively true, for all intents and purposes. I'm a subjectivist (moral), so virtually everything I believe in is just something I believe in. If however you think objective truths exists (moral truths), you have to give a rational basis for it. "Because I think so" is not a good enough reason because I could "think" the opposite and we can't both be right. "Because I (Roto13) think so" is equally pointless, unless you can illustrate why you are the sovereign ruler of what is moral.
Incidentally, even if God were to exist, it wouldn't be the case that just because God decreed something, it would be moral.
So, since you've denounced Religion (Faith), Give us some examples of rationally based morals. The Constitution?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pureghetto
If something feels morally wrong for a person for a certain issue, I usually respect those feelings. Unless their opinion and the actions that come from it could somehow end up harming other people.
As for religion affecting moral beliefs, I think it's okay because if that's what they truly believe and they are okay with believing it then others should respect that. Unless it affects others in a negative way (sacrificing other people to their gods, restricting what people can wear, etc.) But if those people that are being affected are okay with it then it's okay.
To play Devil's Advocate:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evastio
A teenager believes he's gay-> Mom pressures him to 'turn straight' because of her religion-> Boy kills himself.
Doesn't the belief that being gay is wrong, due to religion, indirectly, hurt this young boy?
As if I didn't have enough people questioning my beliefs. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
If it'd make that boy kill himself I think that his mom shouldn't enforce the rules of her religion on the kid. So basically I think that people should be free to follow their religion as long as they don't enforce it on people that don't want to follow their religion. That goes the same way for non-religious people who want to try to convince others to be non-religious.
To continue to play devil's advocate, what if the similar scenario occurs, but the young boy, kills himself, because he is a highly Christian person, and feels he is a "sin".
Yet in christiality killing yourself is a sin, so therefore he'd be commiting a sin to rid a sin? That wouldnt work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
nothing justifies killing yourself in christianity. Its pretty obvious Gobo isnt one.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am StonerYet in christiality killing yourself is a sin, so therefore he'd be commiting a sin to rid a sin? That wouldnt work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
and btw, nowadays it doesnt really matter if you are gay or living together be4 marriage.. that would be more for the catholics to punish and stuff.. you get looked down upon for it.. but youre not shunned or anything.
Killing himself is his choice and it isn't part of the rules of his religion (if it was then if that's what he truly wants to do we should accept that). Usually Christianity focuses more on overcoming sinful thoughts and feelings instead of destroying them by destroying yourself. If he truly was a highly Christian person he'd be trying to overcome his sins instead of killing himself to stop sinning. Unless you're trying to protect and save other people (like in a war) killing people is always a sin according to Christianity.
Saying its his choice, is almost cruel. People are driven to do things. This person's choice would've never been chosen, if another individual did not make, and impose that belief on a populace. If a belief can force people to do something self-destructive, isn't that belief a destructive one?
EDIT: This thread really should be in EoEo.
EDIT2:Trying to get into the mind of someone who has committed suicide, is a silly and futile attempt. If someone was willing to commit suicide (other then to remove themselves from an enormous amount of physical pain), means there is something mentally unstable, or wrong with that human being. For all we know the boy could've killed himself, accepting his place in hell, to remove some Sin from Earth. Does that seem stupid? Yes. But that is why you don't attempt to enter the mind of the mentally unstable.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am StonerYet in christiality killing yourself is a sin, so therefore he'd be commiting a sin to rid a sin? That wouldnt work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evastio
Yet in the Bible it says 'Thou Shall Not Kill Thy Fellow man' are you saying that means you cant kill other people yet you can kill yourself? In both catholic and Protisant Christiality there are hints and also readings that show suicide to be a spoil and destruction of the body ''god'' made for them. That counts as a sin in christian eyes.
Edit: Damn sorry, should learn to read posts more carefully.
Even if he is driven, in the end it's still his choice. The belief isn't destructive, it's the people who are enforcing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
I think the fact that this is a religion is making you be far more forgiving. If you had black hair, and everyone in your community, told you and believed, its wrong to have black hair, don't you think that would get to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by SagensygEven if he is driven, in the end it's still his choice. The belief isn't destructive, it's the people who are enforcing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
If someone kills his or herself over bullying, bullying is considered at fault and the reason. Why is this different for religion?
If you were to save that guy even though he's really insistant on killing himself wouldn't that be cruel? Stopping him from doing what he believes is right? Even though a lot of people would disagree with his choice that doesn't mean they have the right to stop him. It's okay if you try to convince him to stop but if he is adamant on refusing to change his opinion you shouldn't force that kid to stop.
Yeah, I know most Christian religions don't permit killing. But if there happened to be one that permitted killing yourself for leading a sinful life and he strongly and willingly believed in it then it'd be wrong to stop him.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am StonerQuote:
Originally Posted by Evastio
Yet in the Bible it says 'Thou Shall Not Kill Thy Fellow man' are you saying that means you cant kill other people yet you can kill yourself? In both catholic and Protisant Christiality there are hints and also readings that show suicide to be a spoil and destruction of the body ''god'' made for them. That counts as a sin in christian eyes.
Yet if he was such a dedicated christian for himself to recognise he is a ''sin'' then he would understand the ethics of his religion and obviously not sin to make another sin right, coz that in all sense is quite weird. If he wanted to make up for it then why didnt he go off and do something good? It also says in the bible how god supposedly loves every one of us and cares for us. And that the whole reason jesus was crucified was to wash away all our sins. ALL of them. Surely he would understand then that there would be a chance of redemption for him within his religious order. I mean more and more Homosexual preists appear all over the place nowadays, you think they ever tried to commit suicide? *sigh* I guess at the end of the day it all comes down as to how people look and things and understand them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagensyg
No I would not. I am a firm believer that no person should die for the wrongs of others. In this case the boy shouldn't throw his life away, instead he should be approached by others that will help him/her realize its not a sin and its not something to kill yourself over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evastio
You get one life, and ending it because of beliefs others have made and you have adopted is wrong and ending it because of the beliefs of others is also wrong. I'd go as far as saying your assisting someone's suicide.
Clearly, these Asian sects are ignorant and stupid and don't know what they're talking ab...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
Oops, I forgot that Asian sects aren't Christian, so it's not trendy and fashionable to rag on them despite lacking any proper understanding of their origins and beliefs :D
If someone reads the New Testament, discovers Christ's message of humility, tolerance and compassion, then adopts that morality as their own... is that person an imbecilic thicko who deserves ridicule? I'd say not. It's a religiously motivated moral code, but that doesn't make it inherently worthless or idiotic. Even if it is Christian in origin.
Believing or doing something only because a religion says it is so, with no attempt to understand the underlying or complicating factors, is uninformed in my opinion. It's always better to understand why, rather than just obeying mindlessly. However, we're all brought up in an environment where we just take for granted many moral and ethical practices. It's not all explained to us step-by-step; we just accept that things are done 'that way' go on about our lives. Are the common standards of behaviour, courtesy and decency 'ignorant' too?
Actually, I see this as no different. Even if someone is told that their hair color was wrong, they are still the ones who made the choice to kill themselves. (Which is what it looks like your implying with this) Or, they can simply move. And besides, something that ridiculous wouldn't even get me close to contemplating anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoI think the fact that this is a religion is making you be far more forgiving. If you had black hair, and everyone in your community, told you and believed, its wrong to have black hair, don't you think that would get to you?Quote:
Originally Posted by SagensygEven if he is driven, in the end it's still his choice. The belief isn't destructive, it's the people who are enforcing it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Who said Christians aren't antagonized because of situations like this?Quote:
If someone kills his or herself over bullying, bullying is considered at fault and the reason. Why is this different for religion?
Edit
Things are explained in the Bible. It's just that the people who want to criticize on Christianity don't seem to have the mental capacity to even try and look for it in the Bible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big DClearly, these Asian sects are ignorant and stupid and don't know what they're talking ab...Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Mullet
Oops, I forgot that Asian sects aren't Christian, so it's not trendy and fashionable to rag on them despite lacking any proper understanding of their origins and beliefs
If someone reads the New Testament, discovers Christ's message of humility, tolerance and compassion, then adopts that morality as their own... is that person an imbecilic thicko who deserves ridicule? I'd say not. It's a religiously motivated moral code, but that doesn't make it inherently worthless or idiotic. Even if it is Christian in origin.
Believing or doing something only because a religion says it is so, with no attempt to understand the underlying or complicating factors, is uninformed in my opinion. It's always better to understand why, rather than just obeying mindlessly. However, we're all brought up in an environment where we just take for granted many moral and ethical practices. It's not all explained to us step-by-step; we just accept that things are done 'that way' go on about our lives. Are the common standards of behaviour, courtesy and decency 'ignorant' too?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Because religions have laws and ethics behind them. Bullying doesnt have laws. I mean if the guy who commited suicide wanted out of christiality then he could of left. It states in the bible that one of gods greatest gifts to mankind is the freedom of thought and freedom to choose his own path in life. So if they are stopping him from leaving christiality they are either directly or indirectly desrupting gods cycle of things. Therefore going against his will for all men to be free and walk thier own path.
agreed.. do you know how many time i have to hear: "If god was real, then why is there war, hunger, etc?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagensyg
its not like people want to hear the answer anyway.. they just want to keep asking that until someone cant answer, to make themselves seem superiour.
The biggest example I can think of regarding people believing homosexuality to be wrong being harmful is the lack of gay marriage in most of the US. Hell, most of the world. I'm fortunate enough to live in the vastly superior Canada. :bigsmile: But if I lived in, say, Texas, I wouldn't be married right now and it'd be entirely the fault of an irrational belief too many people share.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
That's where theQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
part comes in. But even if he still refuses to stop commiting suicide no matter how much you try to convince him, you shouldn't try to force him to stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evastio
If the person agrees many parts of Christianity, but disagrees with Gay is a sin. The problem normally isn't the person disliking Christianity, but just the views on homosexuality. So they get caught in a predicament, "how can I be Christian and gay?"Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am StonerQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Because religions have laws and ethics behind them. Bullying doesnt have laws. I mean if the guy who commited suicide wanted out of christiality then he could of left. It states in the bible that one of gods greatest gifts to mankind is the freedom of thought and freedom to choose his own path in life. So if they are stopping him from leaving christiality they are either directly or indirectly desrupting gods cycle of things. Therefore going against his will for all men to be free and walk thier own path.
Also, your twisting the Bibles words. Christianity still holds the belief "Your Christian, or your going to hell!" Asking a Christian to give up their faith because they are gay, is like asking them to go to hell. Not gonna happen. Instead you get very depressed people who sometimes do experience thoughts of sucide. I saw it occur with a close friend for about 1 and a half years.
Don't inter loop me with them peoples :P But assuming a person the person actually makes an argument that isn't completely stupid, there's a difference between antagonizing someone's beliefs, and antagonizing someone over something they can't control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's Knightagreed.. do you know how many time i have to hear: "If god was real, then why is there war, hunger, etc?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagensyg
its not like people want to hear the answer anyway.. they just want to keep asking that until someone cant answer, to make themselves seem superiour.
So, your seriously saying, that in this incident, Christianity's "Gay=Sin" didn't influence the young boy to kill himself?
Yet if he doesnt like the views on homosexuality then why follow christiality?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoIf the person agrees many parts of Christianity, but disagrees with Gay is a sin. The problem normally isn't the person disliking Christianity, but just the views on homosexuality.Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am StonerQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Because religions have laws and ethics behind them. Bullying doesnt have laws. I mean if the guy who commited suicide wanted out of christiality then he could of left. It states in the bible that one of gods greatest gifts to mankind is the freedom of thought and freedom to choose his own path in life. So if they are stopping him from leaving christiality they are either directly or indirectly desrupting gods cycle of things. Therefore going against his will for all men to be free and walk thier own path.
Because Christianity is a big thing hun, have you ever looked at how much is in the bible? Its not a 'don't be gay book'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
No but as u said yourself it is a big thing. But the views on homosexuals isnt a thing you can just bypass. Its a part of the very foundation of the christian religion. So therefore if he doesnt like the anti-homosexual teachings he doesnt like one of the key features of christiality and its society.
My husband is Catholic. Trust me, you don't have to be a bigot to be Christian.
Oh sorry, I thought we were talking about the die-hard christians that follow the word of god like a train on rails. My bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roto13
Its not 'part of the very foundation of the Christian Religion'. The Christian religion's foundation, is to show the ferocity, yet compassion of God, and why you should love him.
The problem becomes, when a person is inspired by the Bible, wants to love, and be with God, but finds himself with a 'sin' that is out of a person's control.
Sins outlined in the Bible are things you can control:
Don't Kill
Don't Steal
Don't worship another as you would god.
But, don't be gay, is something you can't control.
Exactly. You can't be. There are requirements you have to be to become the President. One of them is you have to be 35 or older. If you don't meet that requirement, how do you expect to become The President?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenbokoIf the person agrees many parts of Christianity, but disagrees with Gay is a sin. The problem normally isn't the person disliking Christianity, but just the views on homosexuality. So they get caught in a predicament, "how can I be Christian and gay?"Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am StonerQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Because religions have laws and ethics behind them. Bullying doesnt have laws. I mean if the guy who commited suicide wanted out of christiality then he could of left. It states in the bible that one of gods greatest gifts to mankind is the freedom of thought and freedom to choose his own path in life. So if they are stopping him from leaving christiality they are either directly or indirectly desrupting gods cycle of things. Therefore going against his will for all men to be free and walk thier own path.
Well, this is no different from the suicide case. It's the person's choice. If they really want to be a Christian but are struggling with homosexuality, then the Christian thing to do is to pray.Quote:
Asking a Christian to give up their faith because they are gay, is like asking them to go to hell. Not gonna happen. Instead you get very depressed people who sometimes do experience thoughts of sucide. I saw it occur with a close friend for about 1 and a half years.
It was the mother. Besides, like I said, if the boy did kill himself, this is blunt, he wasn't a true Christian. He should've prayed.Quote:
So, your seriously saying, that in this incident, Christianity's "Gay=Sin" didn't influence the young boy to kill himself?
Sorry for this late reply, I've had to switched over to a laptop.
Edit
Actually, the foundation of Christianity is worshipQuote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
Actually the foundation of the christian religion is one to 'guide' and make clear the good lord's laws and teachings, 'so he who may follow it shall be in heaven with him and remain with him always'. Hence why anti-homosexuality is a part of the very foundation of the christian religion.
No, I'm talking about the scenario where there was no mother.
(http://forums.eyesonff.com/general-c...ml#post2483677)
Prayed for what? 'Oh god, please turn me straight!' My friend did pray, she had told me, and she said it didn't change how she felt. I truly believe she had the possibility of killing herself, if she didn't have good supporting friends, and apparently a priest that wasn't a bigot :P
Christians believe that prayer is a form of communication from them to god. Just coz you ask doesn't mean he'll give. Even my dad, who is a reader in the church of england says that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
There are other factors to prayer that are shown in the book of Daniel. You can't just pray once and expect instant results. Like Stoner said, it's communication. You can't talk to a girl just once and expect to get married. You're friend may not have prayed hard enough, or she is in a sort of recovery. I'm assuming she hasn't commited suicide, so her prayer may have been answered, but her returning to heterosexuality may be over time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldenboko
So, what is this thread about again?
So far I've read about masturbation, Jesus, and butthurt, so I'm a little lost at the moment.
It's pretty much butthurt. (Edit: I say that, but I do actually agree with Roto) The most interesting posts have been from PG and Big D. I shall address the second of these now:Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fonz
That depends on what you believe the basis of morality is, or more accurately, the basis of what consitutes moral behaviour. A utilitarian perspective would say that what matters is the action, the end result. A Kantian would conversely argue that intent is all that matters - consequences are not a component in analysing moral action. Applying that thought to what you say, a person cannot be moral if they're mindlessly obeying, even if they are mindlessly obeying beneficial rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big D
Indeed. "Doing the right thing without knowing why" is fine, but hardly means that the person is a shining pillar of moral fortitude. Similarly, the very best intentions aren't worth squat if they consistently lead to predictably crummy results.Quote:
Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF
Ideally, people should focus on "doing the right thing for the right reason", but given the wide spectrum of what people deem "right", it's never going to work perfectly.
OOC: It's funny how I didn't like Kant until I read him. I don't agree with it all, but stuff like categorical imperative and the intent-based morality that milf mentioned I really agree with.
I don't even know what morals are. It's just a buzzword to me. We believe what we believe, and yes, some beliefs are more stupid than others. Sometimes the stupidity of beliefs is subjective, sometimes it isn't. For example, the belief that all Jews must die is obviously stupid. However, saying that the act of sticking your genitals into a rectum is 'morally' wrong, considering what the biological and social purposes of those things are, is not as obvious. A belief that that opinion is stupid is not so far fetched either, but it is not as clear a case.
I can't believe I almost missed this thread because it's in General Chat.
Before we begin, let's note that I am not a Christian.
Here's a hypothetical: God speaks directly to me. I hear him explicitly speak the Bible to me. I am willing to accept, on this basis, that the Bible is the divine word of God. I am willing to accept, also, that the Bible's assessment of God as a being of pure moral goodness is correct, based on my personally empirical observation of God. The word of God becomes, then an essentially unbreakable moral law. If God says homosexuality is bad, I am not unjustified in believing that to be the case.
I understand that you can't conceive of this hypothetical. I get that you can't acknowledge the concept of faith in anything other than your own judgment, however good or bad that might be. I can't conceive, however, of this kind of logic: "it is okay because you can't prove that it isn't." This isn't even logic, really. I have never understood why moral relativists place some kind of burden of proof on everyone else, but none on themselves. Why should I believe that morality is flexible or personal? How can you even conceive of a morality that is based on nothing except personal experience or taste? The "I am right because you can't prove me wrong" Atheism Brigade seems to think that "acceptance of all other beliefs" is a universal moral code, and I can't figure out why, except speculate that accepting all beliefs (and, as a result, stifling your own) is somehow utilitarian.
I guess it comes down to a fundamental disagreement of what constitutes "morality," as that one guy said. Utilitarianism would suggest that homosexuality isn't wrong. Divine authority would suggest that it either is or isn't, depending on the divinity you believe in the authority of. There are others, but these ones are the ones that seem to be arising here.
Also, to those who think that rational thought is the end-all of epistemology: go read some Dostoevsky, for god's sake. People have feelings, and they aren't always rational, and they are definitely real.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Del Murder
Yes I do. All religion really is (the one I know, Christianity) is based off of a book. The way I see it is not making your mind up for yourself. I don't know much about ALL religions (buddhism/hindu/all that other stuff) but I'm an atheist and to be honest, I have to say my morals couldn't be better. If it doesn't hurt, it's not wrong, and that's that. Like the bible says it's wrong to be gay but what makes it wrong? Because it kills the population? Like the population's ever going to die, seriously.
People I know (like my mom) just agree with things being right or wrong based on whether or not it's in the bible and it pisses me off.