Top 15 RPG Cliches That Need To Go Away

Feature: The Top 15 RPG Clichés That Need to Go Away ::: Kombo.com - Video Games, News, Zelda, Halo 3, Grand Theft Auto, Mario, Super Smash Bros. Brawl

Discuss. :P

My thoughts:

15) Level Caps

This really doesn't bother me. Overleveling is pretty dumb, so if that cuts back on that, it's fine with me.

14) Enemy Levels that Scale

As long as it's reasonable, this isn't a problem. Take Final Fantasy VIII, for example. Yeah, the enemies got stronger as Squall got stronger, but it's not like they were twice your level or something. There's no really anything mandatory in FF VIII that is ridiculously hard or anything.

13) Fetch Quests

These are bad for you story people. :P When you're absolutely dying to find out what happens next, running around the world for various random objects is irritating. If you're just in it for the gameplay, though, who cares?

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights

These can be irritating. I hold back on my MP when I fight a boss because I don't know if I'm going to have to fight another one before I get the chance to replenish it. When you go through an entire game without using a spell or special skill, it really takes away from the experience. :P This can be done right, though. The Kefka fight in Final Fantasy VI had a whole bunch of stages, but you were fighting a giant mass of godhood, so it wasn't difficult to tell that there was more to the fight just by the fact that you can see parts you haven't killed yet. :P

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose

It sucks when you waste all of your items for nothing. It also sucks when you're not sure if you're supposed to win or lose so you decide to lose and you choose wrong. :P

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects

It's annoying if it's overdone, that's for sure. I'd like to think my status spells serve some purpose, because I sure as hell won't be wasting a Blind spell on a five second random encounter.

9) The Destruction of a Home Village

Meh. There are worse story cliches.

8) Amnesia

Oh, no, I don't remember anything! This has never happened to anyone in the history of ever!

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide

I think these are horrible, but not for the same reason as the article. :P There are some puzzles that make abso-freaking-lutely no logical sense and the only way to get through them is to stumble around aimlessly until the puzzle solves itself. Those are dumb. The puzzle the article refers to, though, is not one of those puzzles. For every space you move, the statues move one space. Using that, it's not difficult to figure out what to do.

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters

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Final Fantasy XII. The Zodiac Spear. smurf you, Square Enix. Moving on.

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Yup.

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment

"Hey, we need to get out of here quick! Let's run! Oh, but first, here's some boring-ass story you don't care about!"

4) Constant Party Switching

I would have liked for my Final Fantasy XII backup party to not have been at level 10 for the entirety of the game, because if I did want to use someone later in the game, it wasn't worth the trouble to build them up to a respectable level. On the other hand, you're never forced to use anyone in particular in XII, even Vaan, so at least it never royally screwed you over.

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back

This one is pretty dated. It's just not true any more. There are characters like Presea in Tales of Symphonia or Tifa in Final Fantasy VII or Ursala in Breath of Fire IV. Of course the dainty little débutante isn't going to be a bruiser with a claymore, but that's ok. That'd be... weird.

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy

Those are... kinda pointless. I don't bother with them. I don't care if I get a zillion EXP, they're not worth the effort. And do I really need a zillion EXP?

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe

There definitely need to be more lead characters with ball hair. When the main characters are like Tidus or Vaan or Lloyd Irving they always end up being the least likeable characters in the game.

Well there you go. That took a while to write. You're obligated to reply now. xP

Random encounters should be removed, make them all real time and we're good.

I agree with you so, so, so much.

Why do I have to reply, Mommy's Boyfriend?

15) Level caps are only there because it's difficult to pull anything else off spectacularly well, in my opinion. Level caps are there to remind people that there are limits to their abilities, and it could save them from the accidental dungeon drop with super hard enemy encounters (though I don't see why game-makers would allow such dungeons to be open, but it has happened before). However, with so many RPGs treating levels as different things, one can't expect to be level 50 for the final encounter and be at a good spot. It doesn't work anymore.

14) Scaling enemies would be cool. Too bad enemies will either always be beneath you, above you, and life tends to get annoying when they have RANDOM ENCOUNTERS DURING A PUZZLE TRAP.

13) No one said you had to do them. More pointless "do this" for "get that." Most people I think would leave them for the end-game anyways.

12) Yunalesca. Next subject.

11) Yes. Remove please. The ass-pwnage can be reserve to a bunch of bright and flashy cinematics.

10) Yes. Kind of sucks the usefulness away from them when they seem to only affect you. Of course, you can't have smart enemy AI that actually has an interest in self-preservation and does the same thing that party can does.

9) Save the world is worse. Why can't we just have "save the city" or "be as evil" as want? Half of the characters in RPGs could care less about the world, so why would they want to save it?

8) Pssht. Amnesia is usually short-term. Without magic (and amnesias are almost never explained with magic), it's pretty hard to get rid of long term or procedural memory. Remove please. Could be in conjunction with "omg I hit my head, now I have mind cancer."

7) Pokemon in a dungeon versus Zubats when you ran out of Revives, and your Anti-Air/Anti-Poison is dead.

6) It's even worse when that weapon is out-classed by a simpler weapon post-game. Eg., Zodiac Spear versus ANY KATANA.

5) Yes. Don't you think the villain would simply take the opportunity to just kill the party during the chat?

4) If the game would actually give you an incentive to USE the characters, party-switching would be so much more useful.

3) Recent games are getting better with this stuff.

2) Well, if it's the Zone Eater, I wouldn't mind. I think this would tie into the whole "boss immunity" subject. Doesn't being invulnerable kind of defeat the purpose of the game? Scripted loss battles, immune-all bosses. Bleh.

1) Old people are old. You need someone with the sexual tension for the female characters. Because everyone in the world is a chauvinistic prick.

15) Level Caps

No, lower level caps are good. They force you to invest in abilities intelligently and not nerf the difficulty by mindlessly grinding. Isn't it much more satisfying to beat a hard boss because you came up with an awesome strategy rather then just leveling up to 30 and trouncing it? Well, except when that game is Dragon Quest where only levels seem to matter.

14) Enemy Levels that Scale

Pretty much the same deal: it's a mechanic designed so people can't easily nerf the difficulty. I don't really see a problem with it.

13) Fetch Quests

Only annoying if you had something much more interesting to do. Otherwise I'm indifferent.

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights

I like them generally, as long as each stage is completely different.

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose

Don't really care

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects

Yeah, this is dumb.

9 and 8)

Both seem like arguments for originality, which I can agree with I guess.

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide

How many of these ACTUALLY require a stategy guide? I'm generally not bothered by them unless they're like Roto13 said and completely unnatural. Way for the author to give a non-RPG example, btw.

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters

Yes, it's terrible. Not to mention rather unethical.

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment

Sounds like an argument for more intellegent writing. I guess I agree.

4) Constant Party Switching

I don't mind rotating my party members but having them not level up while bentched is kind of dumb. Unless they aren't actually supposed to be with your party and just off in some tavern somewhere.

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back

Once again I agree with Roto13. Character class wise I don't really think it's that much of a problem now days. If we're talking about personality wise though, then I could probably agree to some extent.

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy

Only a problem if you're using a random encounter system. Which you shouldn't.

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe[

Once again, argument for originality. Agreed.

I would come up with my own list but I don't think I can be bothered. Maybe later in the thread.

15) Level Caps

Yea, cause I not only want kill the fluffy bunny outside the first village, I want destroy it's molecule with the weapon that makes the wooden sword look epic.

14) Enemy Levels that Scale

Yea, it can go away too. See above for why.

13) Fetch Quests

I don't mind these. They always lead to something good.

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights

Nope, one form final bosses are boring.

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose

Yup, go away. Replace it with a cutscene or something.

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects

I'm in the middle here. I love status effects, but after killing 2nd to last boss of Shadow Hearts 2 with an instant death card spell on round 1 I dunno. Poison, slow, blind=yes. Death, stop, petrify=no.

9) The Destruction of a Home Village

They get better.

8) Amnesia

They get better too.

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide

I agree again. Puzzles are fun, but the game peoples are ruining it by making it impossible. And of course I'm stubborn and will use it as a last resort. Looking at you Puzzle #18 of Wild ARMs 3.

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters

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Final Fantasy XII. The Zodiac Spear. smurf you, Square Enix. Moving on.

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Yup.

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment

Doesn't bother me so much. Most of the optional stuff doesn't open up until the world is at the brink of destruction. So why is they can play Skeeball for 50 hours, but not have 15 minute conversation?

4) Constant Party Switching

Yea. Just give me six or so different characters and don't have them leave.

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back

I agree. Give chicks swords now! But like you said it's kinda dated. I mean you have Raqual of Wild ARMs 4, Lita of Atelier Iris, or Farah of Tales of Eternia.

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy

Bu-but I like these. See my first comment.

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe

Yea, go away! We need more characters like Jack or Yuri. Angst sucks in general. IF you it must be in my game, give it to one of the special named mooks.

Meh. If you think the clichés are that bad, stop playing RPGs.

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13) No one said you had to do them.

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Except when you DO have to do them. Dragon Quest VIII is a pretty bad offender here.

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Meh. If you think the clichés are that bad, stop playing RPGs.

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It's not like one of the prerequisites for being an RPG is that a game has to be the same as every other RPG ever made.

15) Level Caps
I think level caps are a good thing. Level caps that change as the game progresses are dumb however. Just have a single level cap that can be achieved anytime.

14) Enemy Levels that Scale
I don't have a huge problem with this. I don't think they should scale at an equal rate to you, but making them a bit tougher I can understand.

13) Fetch Quests
Most fetch quests end up being sidequests. Even if they are main quests, it's usually to new areas, so what's the big deal?

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights
I think they're good, and saving MP and items isn't a big deal to me. Like in Resident Evil 4, I hated using healing items, so I'd just retry if I needed too and such. It was pretty dumb because when I beat the game, half my case was herbs. I don't like using items at all, so saving for a second part of a boss isn't an issue with me.

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
Well, if you used tons of items, usually there are saves right before stuff like this... just reload it.

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
I don't have a problem with final bosses being immune to all SE. I mean, if you can be at that point, I don't see a problem with it. I have a ribbon equipped, why can't the final boss? Bosses should be immune to different things as you progress through the game, but late game bosses, I can understand being immune to most things.

9) Destruction of a home village
Enough games don't start this way, and in fact most of my favorites do not start this way, so I don't really see the problem with it.

8) Amnesia
Sometimes it can be crucial. FFVII it was basically the entire concept that Cloud didn't know his real past. So it really all depends on how it is used.

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
Usually there are hints in the game at the very least. On top of that, when you read a strategy guide you usually smack yourself or laugh that you didn't think of it.

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
My only problem with this is if it's something you can MISS ENTIRELY. Like the zodiac spear. If it's something you can get at any point after, I don't mind, it's like a nice hidden bonus.

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
Depends, some games have a timer in the corner that counts down while they chat. In fact, sometimes they purposefully give more time on the counter, making you think you have time, then have the chatty stuff, and you go, oh, I should've moved faster.

4) Constant Party Switching
Characters not fighting should get some exp... not as much, but some. I also hate this because I always have my favorite characters.

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
REALLY not a big problem nowadays... You could name plenty of games that are not like that.

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy

Random encounter in general is a pain. I don't know why XII got such a backlash for not having random encounters, when the fighting system was one of the best ever

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe

Yes and no. The age is more like 16-20, typically 18. And they're thinking, who is most likely to play this, wouldn't it be cool for them to think, hey this guy is saving the world at the same age as me! On top of this, it's usually because of all the OLDER people advising and helping him, that he even has a chance to anyways.
It's like Vaan in XII really had nothing to do with anything.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by Roto13

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Meh. If you think the clichés are that bad, stop playing RPGs.

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It's not like one of the prerequisites for being an RPG is that a game has to be the same as every other RPG ever made.

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I never said it was. But frankly, some of the "clichés" on their list aren't much of clichés either. Some of those are comparable to saying "puzzle games are too clichéd, we need less puzzle games dealing with puzzle pieces/puzzle blocks."

I was just saying that if the clichés are so terrible, then don't play the games. Same reason why I don't watch action movies. Their clichés are unbearable to watch in my opinion.

I don't play bad RPGs. But there are good ones that do avoid these cliches and the bad ones have no excuse to fall into those traps.

15) Level Caps

Not a cliche and doesn't make the game any worse in my opinion.

14) Enemy Levels that Scale

Again, not a cliche as hardly any RPG's do it. Oh and I don't mind.

13) Fetch Quests

Depends on how long and tedious it is, but can be quite annoying.

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights

Makes fights more epic. I love them.

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose

100% agreed. And its not just RPG's that do it.

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects

Well they're not supposed to be a walk in the park are they.

9) The Destruction of a Home Village

I can only really think of Xenogears to be honest.

8) Amnesia

Has the only RPG this person has played Xenogears?

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide

The stupidest cliche on here. This guy is an idiot.

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters

So hidden items aren't a good thing? Adds replayability in my opinion.

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment

I can agree with this one. Just stupid. Adding a certain amount of realism to RPG's wouldn't hurt.

4) Constant Party Switching

Hardly an issue when it comes to RPG's. But I wouldn't mind developers working on it a bit.

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back

I see no problem with this.

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy

This guy is making these up as he goes a long, why is this a cliche?

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe

This is definitely the most obvious one. I think we can all agree. Go. Now.

Bottom line, this guy shouldn't be playing RPG's. This is probably the stupidest list I've seen in a while.

Level Caps

Not a cliche, but absolutely e. I basically want as few rules as possible. I have absolutely no problem with having to work like a dog to earn high levels of power, but I want those high levels of power to be attainable. One of the most satisfying things about any videogame is when you've earned a position of near-invulnerability. Whether it's an RPG or a 4x or anything else, earning that level of badassitude is great.

Enemy Levels that Scale

I wouldn't say this is a cliche, but it's also absolute e. Oblivion is the best example by far: You simply should not be seeing random highway bandits dressed up in the spiffiest armor outside of Moonshadow. And you should not be able to stroll into Oblivion itself at level 3 and kick Daedric ass.

Fetch Quests

Yup.

Multi-Stage Boss Fights

Not a problem in themselves, but I see the complaint and agree. I'm always saving stuff up in RPGs, and I usually end up not using them.

Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose

Star Ocean 2 was one of the worst for this. There are one or two regular seeming fights that you're meant to lose, and later there are some unbelievably difficult fights that you're meant to win. You're not told that though, and seeing as this is far more difficult than the scripted losses, well.

Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects

Agreed. Status effects are pointless in regular fights that last two rounds, just a waste of MP. And if bosses are immune to them (and they often are), then what purpose do they serve?

The Destruction of a Home Village

Yeah, not the worst cliche, but one of the most boring.

Amnesia

Agreed completely. But then no fiction ever does amnesia right.

Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide

Alundra means I agree completely.

Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters

Nothing wrong with hidden items, but the way to get them must be discoverable through in-game clues.

Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment

Yep.

Constant Party Switching

I think my beef here is more that it's retarded to think your party would split up at all. Why wouldn't the six of you just go through together? Someone needs an RPG where you have more than 4 characters, isn't a tactical RPG, and everyone's in the fight at the same time.

Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back

Yup. Boring, cliched, and surely a recipe to make Shakes rant.

The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy

Eh, I don't mind this one at all to be honest. Go after it if you want, leave it be if you want.

The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe

Given that even Dreddz didn't argue with this, I think it's safe to say that it's a dire cliche that needs to be burnt.

MILF's personal #1 most hated cliche: The Silent Protagonist

No. Just no. It does not immerse, it breaks immersion, unless you are the ONLY character in the world and nobody EVER speaks to you (For instance, DooM). When you're strolling around with a chatty companion and your character never replies? Retarded. Half-Life consistently breaks and damages my immersion due to Gordon never saying anything. And the really funny thing is, of course, that just like so many other silent protagonists Gordon is a character, he's got a backstory and everything, he isn't a tabula rasa for the players to imprint themselves onto him. How he acts is not necessarily how I would act. How others act towards him is not necessarily how they'd act towards me. I cannot insert myself into this quasi-empty vessel nearly as easily as I can empathise with a regular speaking character. Chrono and Suikoden are also dire examples of this.

Edit: Sidenote: I also want to see a game where there are rumors that turn out to be untrue.

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Originally Posted by dreddz

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters

So hidden items aren't a good thing? Adds replayability in my opinion.

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The problem isn't hidden items, it's hidden items no normal human being is ever going to find, no matter how thorough they search every nook and cranny, without checking a strategy guide.

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Originally Posted by MILF is an anagram of FILM

One of the most satisfying things about any videogame is when you've earned a position of near-invulnerability.

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There's nothing satisfying about level grinding. :P Any moron can do it if they're willing to waste enough time.

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Someone needs an RPG where you have more than 4 characters, isn't a tactical RPG, and everyone's in the fight at the same time.

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Go, Final Fantasy IV!

It really doesn't make any sense in games where you have like ten characters but if the three you're using die, the entire game ends. Some games (Golden Sun, Final Fantasy XII) automatically throw in your second team when your first one dies, which makes sense. Though I can see why games might not want to throw like eight characters into the one battle, since it's kind of a lot to keep track of. :P

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Originally Posted by Roto13

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Originally Posted by MILF is an anagram of FILM

One of the most satisfying things about any videogame is when you've earned a position of near-invulnerability.

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There's nothing satisfying about level grinding. :P Any moron can do it if they're willing to waste enough time.

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Oh wow, you're right, thanks! I've gained a completely different perspective on what I, personally, find enjoyable about videogames! :rolleyes2

THE TRUTH HURTS, BIZNATCH!

I think Golden Sun had one of the better battle systems of RPG's. You had the 8 characters, you could swap at any time, and they all gained EXP.

FFXII was alright, except they didn't all gain EXP. So while you could swap at anytime, if you lose your main 3, my other 3 basically were just put out individually so I could run away.

As for the whole level grinding thing... It should get to the point that enemies barely give enough exp to make a difference. And therefore you have to be in a harder area to gain levels anyways. You should never be at a point where you're UBER above any enemy you can face. As soon as you become masterful at killing a certain area of monsters, they should be giving negligible EXP. So you move onto the next area, and you somewhat struggle at first. This is why I'm a fan of endgame special dungeons. Stuff that you basically have to be capped to even stand a chance in, that's fun to me.

THE JACKEL

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Originally Posted by Roto13

There's nothing satisfying about level grinding. :P Any moron can do it if they're willing to waste enough time.

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Depends on the game. Usually the zomg enemy that's invulnerable is the one that'll give you enough EXP to gain a level in an instant. The challenge of beating the enemy for the reward is worth the pain and suffering. Of course, there are some games of ill mention where there's a stupid EXP deterioration formula after level 75. Frankly, I enjoy spending more time in the "near-invulnerability" status like MILF does. If more games had post-game options/dungeons, I'd enjoy them a hell of a lot more.

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Originally Posted by MILFsandwich

No. Just no. It does not immerse, it breaks immersion, unless you are the ONLY character in the world and nobody EVER speaks to you (For instance, DooM). When you're strolling around with a chatty companion and your character never replies? Retarded. Half-Life consistently breaks and damages my immersion due to Gordon never saying anything. And the really funny thing is, of course, that just like so many other silent protagonists Gordon is a character, he's got a backstory and everything, he isn't a tabula rasa for the players to imprint themselves onto him. How he acts is not necessarily how I would act. How others act towards him is not necessarily how they'd act towards me. I cannot insert myself into this quasi-empty vessel nearly as easily as I can empathise with a regular speaking character. Chrono and Suikoden are also dire examples of this.

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I actually like silent protagonist, when it's accomplished correctly. Often, it adds humor to the game (Mario RPG), by having the hero acting out what they otherwise could say.

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Originally Posted by Erdrick13

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Originally Posted by DILF

One of the most satisfying things about any videogame is when you've earned a position of near-invulnerability.

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There's nothing satisfying about level grinding. :P Any moron can do it if they're willing to waste enough time.

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Sometimes I like to level grind a bit. Often it's just to get an ability or attain a higher level, but I don't grind to 99 or to be invulnerable to an enemy.

Grinding is a pain in the ass if it's the basic principle of an entire game though, (see Dragon Quest).

Silent protagonists don't annoy me so much. Actually a lot of people don't get the point of them really. For one a lot of them just don't say anything for themselves and whenever a question is asked you are given the option how to respond, so they are not so silent after all. Other than the Half Life games where it really does seem stupid that Freeman says nothing.

15) Level Caps

I don't particularly care one way or another. I kind of like how Disgaea does it where the level cap is so ridiculous that those who want to do it can, but those who don't needn't bother.

14) Enemy Levels that Scale

This is just bad design. The idea of having a level system is so that you can get tangibly better. If enemies are always just as difficult to defeat for you even though you're supposedly improving, it just feels off. I'm a firm supporter of more dangerous areas with more potent monsters so that the experience you gain actually means something. Further, being able to level up to overcome a challenging boss is a nice opportunity to have and also can at least compensate for design errors that can make a challenging boss nigh unbeatable no matter what you do.

13) Fetch Quests

As a general rule they have a place but should be used skillfully. More on this a bit later.

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights

It's an interesting dynamic that, if handled appropriately, can make for an exciting and challenging battle. On the other hand, if handled poorly, it can make the battle akin to swimming through heaping mounds of fecal matter. It's not a bad concept, but the execution needs to be right or it goes downhill rather fast.

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose

I'm not necessarily averse to this storyline convention (I love Super Robot Wars, and they make liberal and generally decent use of this trope during earlier parts of the game), but it has to be handled appropriately. Obvious visual and storyline cues, things like that. I like what Soul Nomad & the World Eater did, where the boss was level 1,000 when you were about level 12 and the mission requirement was "Be defeated by the World Eater." Obviously it doesn't need to be taken to that extreme, but it is important to have it established. It also makes the eventual defeating of the boss that much more satisfying.

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects

Agreed, if you have status effects make them some applicable part of gameplay. This is less-so for SRPGs where the flow of battle can make them worthwhile, if handled appropriately.

9) The Destruction of a Home Village

Basically agreed, see below.

8) Amnesia

Basically agreed, see below.

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide

Oh man. Challenging puzzles with enough in-game information to understand how to solve them: good. A game needn't hold your hand through it, but having enough hints to put it together is requisite for it to work. On the other hand, a puzzle that requires you to know what the programmer was thinking is neither fair nor fun.

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters

So long as you can actually have some clue about how to do this in game, sure. If there is absolutely nothing in the game about getting it, however, I call BS.

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment

Basically agreed, see below.

4) Constant Party Switching

I don't mind too much if everyone still levels at the same rate.

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back

This really shouldn't ever be the case for any game anymore.

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy

Basically agreed, see below.

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe

Oh god yes. See below.

Rant on RPGs: Basically, I can't really enjoy many JRPGs and even some American RPGs anymore. Traditional turn-based combat just generally isn't all that fun (SRPG combat on the other hand is still good due to the added strategy layer), and when you throw in the cliche'd to hell medieval fantasy that seems to comprise the market, the draw of interesting characters and plots (which were what made RPGs interesting to me in the first place) suddenly fades rather rapidly. I wouldn't mind as much if the gameplay were interesting (Action RPGs, if well executed, are quite entertaining) but as it stands the RPG genre just doesn't have anything to really hold my interest more. The genre just seems so lacking in originality and interesting design choices that it can't really hold my attention anymore, which is sad because I've been a long-time RPG player.

I'm not going to comment on everything said by Roto, but I will talk about a few in a quick paragraphs. The reason RPGs seems so tedious and repetitive nowadays is because it is. Thing's like Multi-Stage Boss Fights, and Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide are really not the problem. But when you've played them again and again and again in so many different platforms, of course your gonna become bored.

That's exactly why some people love to see difference in a RPG's storyline no matter how crappy the rest of the game is. The genre of RPG's need a makeover. And I'm not talking about the "Change it's entire look" makeover. I'm talking about the "Takeout what needs to be Taken out and Renew the old in a different flavor" makeover.

Level Caps:
I don't really have a problem with this. This is generally how Suikoden worked and honestly, I like it cause it keeps challenge up. I will say I don't care for games that have a level cap of over 100 to 9999 while the game can be completed by lv 60 :rolleyes2 It just always feels like the best parts are for the optional content while the main story is just a chore you need to complete to get to the good gameplay.


Enemy Levels that Scale
I don't really have a problem with this but I apparently don't play too many games that do this. VIII is the only one I can think of that did this and I always had mixed feelings, it was nice at first but seemed unnecessary cause even enemies leveling with you could not stop the ungodly broken aspects of the Junction system.

Actually, FFT did this as well but they did it stupidly with only random encounters gaining levels while story battles didn't. Luckily, the system was designed in a way where even low levels can still kill you if they use the right abilities *Charm anyone?*


Fetch Quests
Hell yes, I hate these cause they always seem stupid and forced. Being sent off to find a specific item is fine but when you are sent out with a shopping list I have problems. I also hate Secret of Mana for the Sage Jock quest, where the asshole pretended to be an assistant and sent you all across the goddamn world looking for him...


Multi-Stage Boss Fights
I actually enjoy these quite a bit. Granted I do agree they are a little old and I usually expect every final boss encounter to be a multi-boss fight but it doesn't change my enjoyment of them. Of anything, I miss normal multi-stage boss battles like Xenogears had. XII at least gave me that.


Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
I generally don;t have a problem with these. See ljkkjlcm9's post for my reasoning.

Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
I don't mind final bosses but XII has spoiled me and now I expect more bosses to have status weaknesses besides slow. Seriously, you can do so much more if you build a battle around using status magic wisely and normal encounters are too easy for it to be with them exclusively.

The Destruction of a Home Village
This has not been done recently but I never liked it to begin with. Ten years ago this writer may have had a point but lately its all but gone. I do agree I don't want to see a revival of it anytime soon.


Amnesia
This has rarely been done good. Xenogears and to an extent Vagrant Story are about the only two that were well done imo. I usually only see this cliche when concerning female heroines with special powers that are the key to destroying the world...


Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
Temple of Time? Screw that, the water temple was way more difficult to figure out. Puzzles are a rare breed in RPGs today, outside of Zelda, very few even bother and those that do put little effort into it. The Lufia 1 and 2 and Wild ARMS 1 and 2 are about the only games I can remember having overly complex puzzles that offer no hints and require a strategy guide to complete. Its an irrelevant complaint in imo


Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
XII is the first game to pull this in 15 years and people get all pissy about it :rolleyes2 Yes I feel there should at least be an in-game hint and yes, having it tied to not opening 4 specific chests was a cheap shot but I don't have the Zodiac Spear and missing it has not destroyed my enjoyment of this game.


Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
Yes and no...I'll admit, I would like more scenes with action and no words, and yes, villains giving super ass long speeches as they lie there dying do get on my nerves. Yet its been a long time since I've seen this in an RPG.


Constant Party Switching
I don't mind when its done right... XII didn't bother me cause I built my party with each character fulfilling a certain role so my levels are fairly consistent but I know many people didn't so I can see it being a problem. X gave every character a role but in order to gain levels you had to use them in battle and the game gives you more xp with more characters used in your party. This led to me constantly bringing out characters to do simple actions and transformed half my encounters into annoying grindfests.

Yet in Persona 3, you had to switch out your whole party for strategy cause even powerful characters become a hindrance due to elemental weaknesses so you are generally coerced into using party members you generally wouldn't use and due to a nice level cap system, the unused party members leveled quickly with your main party.


Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
Its still prevalent but the genre has been changing this ever so slightly. It has gotten better for the most part.


The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
Once again I feel this is not as common as it used to be. Still I actually enjoy this and find no harm in it. If you are stupid enough to farm Metal Slimes in DQ when you are too underleveled to do so then that's your own damn fault.

The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
Oh, god yes! This is the only one that is still constant and by god it seems to get worse with each new game. I know they are supposedly marketing to their target audience but they need to realize that a) making them clueless dip-s is not the way to make them endearing and b0 just cause they are older doesn't mean that people can't relate to them. Solid Snake, Kratos, and Dante are hugely popular and are all older adults. If the character is compelling age really shouldn't matter so you either need to start writing older characters until we get sick of it or start writing better high schoolers. Most kids their age are more interested in getting laid than saving the world.


MILF's personal #1 most hated cliche: The Silent Protagonist
I'm conflicted, I would have to agree only cause the few games I felt it was done right also happen to be games that actually gave their silent leads a personality expressed through body language and in-depth dialogue choices. Chrono, Ryu, the main Suikoden characters, and the MegaTen characters all have pretty distinct personalities expressed to the player through other means. So making them mute does seem pointless if you are going to give them a background personality.

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Originally Posted by Dreddz

Silent protagonists don't annoy me so much. Actually a lot of people don't get the point of them really. For one a lot of them just don't say anything for themselves and whenever a question is asked you are given the option how to respond, so they are not so silent after all. Other than the Half Life games where it really does seem stupid that Freeman says nothing.

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Well that was part of my point. One of the reasons it is retarded is because these characters always have to some degree characterstics. They're always going to have to response to shocking things. They're going to have to respond to questions (Suikoden is a good example of this). They're not silent, so why make them silent? As I said, they are not blank slates. Far better to do something like Mass Effect where your character is a character distinct from you, but you shape them according to your choices during the game.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Level Caps:
I don't really have a problem with this. This is generally how Suikoden worked and honestly, I like it cause it keeps challenge up. I will say I don't care for games that have a level cap of over 100 to 9999 while the game can be completed by lv 60 :rolleyes2 It just always feels like the best parts are for the optional content while the main story is just a chore you need to complete to get to the good gameplay.

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That's actually one of the few things I dislike about Suikoden. :p The problem is, for me, that it adds even more to the inevitable linearity of JRPGs. Not only is where you go constrained, but even what you do there. The whole thing just gets to be too much hand-holding, in essence. There's rarely any danger.

Mario was "silent" in Super Mario RPG, and it was one of the most glorious things ever lol

THE JACKEL

I agree on the level caps after I heard that some games wouldn't allow your characters to be maxed out, even at the end of the game is ridiculous to me. I should be able to get all my characters to lvl 99 like I have in FFIX. It's not like it's extremely easy to over level, because the process can be tedious fighting the same ol enemie over and over, I normally wouldn't have the patience for that.

For the scripted battles that you're supposed to lose, I don't mind them as much, but I had to admit that in IX, it could have been done better and like he said, you could just sit there and let them kill all your characters and it would be a game over, the ony thing they need to do to fix that is to allow you to just sit there and die if you please.

I am unsure about the amnesia as I've only played one RPG with that cliche and that was FFVII. Also for the home being destroyed by a village i could care less for that one as well, I don't see it much and it hardly bothers me. Fetch quests can also be boring especially if you've been asked to constanly do them. I can't quite remember one that bothered me most recently though.

15) Level Caps
im not fussed really
anyone who power levels for no reason sucks anyway

14) Enemy Levels that Scale
i prefer that you have to hunt out the stronger ones, and the weak ones stay weak, but i s'pose it adds fun

13) Fetch Quests
they should just die

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights
i dont care
if a normal human didnt mutate into some random creature that has no resemblance to the original person, in the final fight, then i would think there was something wrong with the game!

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
i dont use items
ever
so it doesnt matter

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
it sucks, but it would make it too hard

9) The Destruction of a Home Village
this DOES suck

8) Amnesia
I agree that only KotOR does this well

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
yeah, these are stupid
or where they require an item that you have never seen, and its hidden on the side of the screen at the starting area.
or, like in Koudelka, you cant finish the game cause you didnt get an item out of a fountain (so you didnt actually know it was there)

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
useless

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
most dialogue in games these days sucks anyway, so i dont care

4) Constant Party Switching
i only care if im going for 100%

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
that doesnt matter
you need a mage dont you?

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
who care?

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
put it this way, the only main characters i have ever liked are Terra (Locke sucked) and Squall. the rest are either immature tits (Tidus) or just darn right annoying (Clouds revolutionarily interesting stupidly boring amnesia story)

Final Note:
Please GOD Square, go back to random battles.
we all got stressed with them back in the day, but i would do anything to get away from the boring and stupid battle system of FFXII. it just lost any kind of excitement that a battle could have!

Anyone who says they want random battles because they hated Final Fantasy XII's battle system really, really doesn't know what they're talking about.

To add about the bolss immunity to everything. I think that makes it okay if it's a final or optional boss, other than that it could be a bit fustrating and it would put more emphasis on those abilities.

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Originally Posted by Roto13

Anyone who says they want random battles because they hated Final Fantasy XII's battle system really, really doesn't know what they're talking about.

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by that, i meant i want random battles back in Final Fantasy
i just think it makes you lose the involvement you had in the old games.
it works in a game like Kingdom Hearts or KotOR, I just dont like it in Final Fantasy

Random battles have very little to do with the way the battles are actually fought.

well maybe random battles isnt what i meant then.
i mean the whole idea of going into a different screen, rather than the map & battles being on the same screen.

I won't comment on FFXII's battle system directly, I just want FFXIII to not be a sack of fail.

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Originally Posted by I'm my own MILF

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

Level Caps:
I don't really have a problem with this. This is generally how Suikoden worked and honestly, I like it cause it keeps challenge up. I will say I don't care for games that have a level cap of over 100 to 9999 while the game can be completed by lv 60 :rolleyes2 It just always feels like the best parts are for the optional content while the main story is just a chore you need to complete to get to the good gameplay.

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That's actually one of the few things I dislike about Suikoden. :p The problem is, for me, that it adds even more to the inevitable linearity of JRPGs. Not only is where you go constrained, but even what you do there. The whole thing just gets to be too much hand-holding, in essence. There's rarely any danger.

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Its a difference in taste I suppose. I understand where you are coming from but I feel the games that do this are not so bad (mostly Suikoden) cause the battle system is based around strategy rather than grinding to godhood. Granted I do actually grind to godhood but rarely throughout the game. Besides, I have a feeling Suikoden's system is designed this way to help out with the fact you have close to 60 to 80 characters to play as.

level caps:

I think to hell with levels sometimes. ff2 and 10 both served this point well. yeah yeah yeah you can get everyone up to level 99 (which I do) but to go beyond level 99 stat wise, well thats revolutionary. I'd like to see a game where you can level up as much as possible but still have a number like getting up to level 100+. It would be cool to have all the stat bonuses but the exp would make this really hard to do if you wait to level up at like 610 to 611. There would have to be like a zillion exp to gain. But still you could do all the quests, story, and anything else and always improve.

enemy levels that scale:
This isn't that bad as long as you don't run into a later fight that you shouldn't be fighting yet. most games (the good ones) won't have little areas you can go to that shouldn't be gone to early on. They just make one path for you to stick to and no getting lost.

Fetch quests:
When I was young playing games and fetch quests were fun. I have nothing against them. The only thing I hate is when you have to really dig in time to get what you need. Like FF12's tournesol. In ff10 you had to collect segnils or something to activate the ultimate weapons. Which wasn't that hard. Sp I have to say as long as games balance out fetch quests with each other, I don't mind some hard here and some easy there.

muti stage boss fights:
yeah, this can be good or bad. one bad example is legeonds of dragoon's final boss which is like 4 or 5. then an easy one like... what the hell theres no real easy one. I like to kill a boss and be done with it. there ain't no turning back for the player, except in KH2.

scripted battles you are forced to lose:
you know I too have wasted many items on these kinds of boss fights and haven't saved in a long time. With that kind of bummer anyone would hate them. I always thought in like FF9 with all the ones you are forced to lose. SHOW IT IN A FMV!!!!!!! don't take our time going into battle wasting stuff. Its no fun.

Bosses that are immune to all status effects:
Yep this really sucks. Maybe they should just start making them last for a lesser time. Maybe that would help. Or have a fricken ribbion you can steal from them to blind them. WHY WHY WHY make them so hard your green mage can't do @$$

the destruction of a home town:
yeah yeah I've seen from completly destroyed to being rebuild to actually being destroyed a 1000 years ago and people are just now learning that. Then there are good games that keep every town nice and clean. SO like before if the games balance there selfs out. Its not a bad thing. But if its repeated I don't know 2 5 7 9 10 times then it gets out of hand.

amnesia:
Well this is always fun. But what I hate most is when they wait until nearly the end of the game to tell you. tidus, Cloud, squall, so when you first start playing and your like oh these people just meet up and they're all a member of seed but they then find out they grew up together. I still don't know how the hell some one could forget growing up with someone. I just don't know. but me myself I would use a amnesia story to make you think twise what really is going on before the character was a hero.

Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
well ff10 did this to be a couple of time. as did games like silent hill but thats not an RPG. If you really hate them stick to arcade games because in less it makes me break my controller I don't have a problem with them.

Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
I like games like fight a monster get a weapon, or find a chest get a weapon. No getting a useless item or more to build a great weapon. Now if they made the other items able to use before and after. well that wouldn't be so bad. Oh yeah Zodiak Spear FU square enix.

Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment

oh yeah this is a good moment if it wasn't a whole bunch of pressing Ok or having stupid talk. I like to sometimes just press skip if it really bothers me.

Constant Party Switching
hey I like it. what I hate is when they choice for you. sometimes they can choice your worst characters.

Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
call me a sexist I think girls belong in the back.

The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
yeah the levels would be cool but when they give you one of these and most of all you can't run, that gets old and miserable.

The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
yeah my impression of a hero is like a 30 year old man. Not a cry baby like tidus or a dunce like Vaan. You have to give the main dumb hero super powers that are discussed in the story.

Well that does it. After writing all of that i hate rpgs period. Nah I'm gonna love them until I'm dead probally. plus I can get past the parts I hate to see the parts I will love.

I once made an RPG, and the only cliche out of those I used was "destruction of home village". There was also a level cap but that was due to the limitations of RPG Maker 2000 that was unavoidable, plus the game was beatable somewhere around level 15 as it was more about figuring out boss' attack patterns and remembering to cast a paralysis spell on Skeptopotamus.

Going off the "Grand List of Console RPG Cliches" or whatever it was called, I think the game matched four of them, and one of them was a gameplay trait (one of the party members had a gun with infinite ammo).

Now that I think about it I'm beginning to appreciate what FFXII did more and more. It actually didn't do a lot of the common cliches in the genre and makes me wonder, do people hate the game because it didn't do so many cliches?

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Originally Posted by Roto13

Random battles have very little to do with the way the battles are actually fought.

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Are you referring to turn-based combat or random battles? I know they go hand in hand but I don't get your problem with random battles while I could fully understand an issue with turn-based combat.

I'm talking about random battles. I may never play another game with random battles in them because they just so damn annoying. (And whether battles are random or not has nothing to do with whether the combat is turn based or not.)

The thing I don't like about XII's non-random battles is that is way too much like a Western RPG, and that is something that Final Fantasy should never ever try to be. The game was a snooze-fest and many of the battles did not hold the drama they do in a turn-based ATB setting.

I prefer random battles in certain games, but I don't mind them not being random, as long as the developers don't smurf it up. An example in which I can think it was bad was Mystic Quest. I don't mind then not being random, but they can't just sit there. They need to move around and at sometimes chase you.

I don't think that random battles can be called a "cliché" anymore than hit points can be called a cliché.

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Originally Posted by Yaridovich

The thing I don't like about XII's non-random battles is that is way too much like a Western RPG, and that is something that Final Fantasy should never ever try to be. The game was a snooze-fest and many of the battles did not hold the drama they do in a turn-based ATB setting.

I prefer random battles in certain games, but I don't mind them not being random, as long as the developers don't smurf it up. An example in which I can think it was bad was Mystic Quest. I don't mind then not being random, but they can't just sit there. They need to move around and at sometimes chase you.

I don't think that random battles can be called a "cliché" anymore than hit points can be called a cliché.

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I will never understand the appeal of random encounters.

I found the encounters of XII to be far more epic than actually having random encounters. The only time random encounters become epic is when you occasionally run into that "random monster of near-invulnerability" beyond that they are tedious after the first 15 minutes of the game. Especially when you are trying to do something like a puzzle or you just want to leave the area and move on.

I like how XII made the cannon fodder monsters interact with each other (calling for help, luring you into traps, forcing you to not use certain abilities so you don't get killed) they felt like a part of the world itself.

I never even thought of random encounters as part of the formula of an RPG, I always felt it was a solution to technical problems caused by limited technology. Considering RPGs are based on pen and paper RPGs like D&D where the random encounters have more impact and bearing than "surprise! you get to fight another bunny slime!". With better technology we can finally be rid of this archaic nonsense.

15) Level Caps Who cares? When you play a video game, you play by the rules designed for that video game. Perhaps a level 20 cap is required to make the game's difficulty curve and mechanics work?

14) Enemy Levels that Scale
To be a cliche you sort of have to like ... appear a lot. I have not played many RPGs with this gameplay element, and further, who cares?

13) Fetch Quests
I dislike these greatly and they should be abolished completely because I would rather have a quality 10 hour RPG than a ty one filled with fetch quests and other useless gameplay elements to bump up the play time.

12) Multi-Stage Boss Fights
NO. I LOVE THESE THINGS <3.

11) Scripted Battles You Are Forced to Lose
These are very annoying for the reason roto stated (item useage, etc.) but, in the 16 bit era they were pretty useful for being cinematic. I enjoyed them more when I didn't have to control my characters, though, because then I KNEW I was supposed to lose.

10) Bosses That Are Immune to All Status Effects
This is a really big pet peeve, actually. I think that status effects, if used correctly, add a lot of depth to gameplay. FFX, for instance, I thought handled status effects pretty well.

9) The Destruction of a Home Village
I dislike this because I have seen it a million times.

8) Amnesia
H8.

7) Overly Complicated Puzzles that Require a Strategy Guide
Obviously. This isn't a cliche though, again, this is merely bad game design.

6) Weapons that Can Only be Received After Meeting Very Specific, Secret Parameters
I am indifferent to this because half the time I don't even know these items exist.

5) Overly Chatty Cutscenes During a Cataclysmic Moment
Blegh, I never notice this.

4) Constant Party Switching
Annoying. Case and point - Vaan, Basch, and Ashe = level 12, Fran, Penelo, and Balthier = level 62.

3) Boys Up Front, Girls in the Back
I dislike this just based on the inherent sexism. Female characters are far too often given the "healer/nurturer" role or the "strange arcane magic user that no one understands because they are a strange woman" role. Let's break the molds, people.

2) The Nearly Invulnerable Random Encounter Enemy
Eh, L2+R2 always worked for me.

1) The Plot Starring an Angsty, Unassuming Teenage Hero Who Will Save the Universe
This can be done right and proper. But it usually isnt.

I also agree with MILF's comment on silent protagonists, which are quite possibly the simplest way to alienate the player from the character who's role they are assuming.

In all, that article was kind of silly. 80% of the author's points on the list were just bad game design as opposed to actual cliches.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

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Originally Posted by Yaridovich

The thing I don't like about XII's non-random battles is that is way too much like a Western RPG, and that is something that Final Fantasy should never ever try to be. The game was a snooze-fest and many of the battles did not hold the drama they do in a turn-based ATB setting.

I prefer random battles in certain games, but I don't mind them not being random, as long as the developers don't smurf it up. An example in which I can think it was bad was Mystic Quest. I don't mind then not being random, but they can't just sit there. They need to move around and at sometimes chase you.

I don't think that random battles can be called a "cliché" anymore than hit points can be called a cliché.

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I will never understand the appeal of random encounters.

I found the encounters of XII to be far more epic than actually having random encounters. The only time random encounters become epic is when you occasionally run into that "random monster of near-invulnerability" beyond that they are tedious after the first 15 minutes of the game. Especially when you are trying to do something like a puzzle or you just want to leave the area and move on.

I like how XII made the cannon fodder monsters interact with each other (calling for help, luring you into traps, forcing you to not use certain abilities so you don't get killed) they felt like a part of the world itself.

I never even thought of random encounters as part of the formula of an RPG, I always felt it was a solution to technical problems caused by limited technology. Considering RPGs are based on pen and paper RPGs like D&D where the random encounters have more impact and bearing than "surprise! you get to fight another bunny slime!". With better technology we can finally be rid of this archaic nonsense.

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To each his own. Like Yaridovich, the western-imitating open field for battles in XII was more boring to me than previous FF's. I know I've been over this before, but the use of the 3d camera, as a movie director would use it, in the middle of a turn-based battle, is epic to me. More cinematic than a gamer could be with a free camera. I just really wasn't pulled in sitting there watching pre-determined battle actions unfold to an inevitable outcome. Although i will say, for a game in which you basically do nothing, there was a hell of alot of strategy in FFXII.

I don't know what to say about RPG cliches. When it comes to art, you can quantify techniques and categorize established methods, but there's something beyond that when it comes to judging whether something is good or not. Shining Force is probably the most cliche RPG I've ever played, but it's one of my favorites, I just have fun playing it, and its sequel is probably my favorite 16-bit RPG. I think a game could follow all 15 of those points (except for the specific and unseen weapon conditions) and still be a great game.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I will never understand the appeal of random encounters.

I found the encounters of XII to be far more epic than actually having random encounters. The only time random encounters become epic is when you occasionally run into that "random monster of near-invulnerability" beyond that they are tedious after the first 15 minutes of the game. Especially when you are trying to do something like a puzzle or you just want to leave the area and move on.

I like how XII made the cannon fodder monsters interact with each other (calling for help, luring you into traps, forcing you to not use certain abilities so you don't get killed) they felt like a part of the world itself.

I never even thought of random encounters as part of the formula of an RPG, I always felt it was a solution to technical problems caused by limited technology. Considering RPGs are based on pen and paper RPGs like D&D where the random encounters have more impact and bearing than "surprise! you get to fight another bunny slime!". With better technology we can finally be rid of this archaic nonsense.

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To each his own. Like Yaridovich, the western-imitating open field for battles in XII was more boring to me than previous FF's. I know I've been over this before, but the use of the 3d camera, as a movie director would use it, in the middle of a turn-based battle, is epic to me. More cinematic than a gamer could be with a free camera. I just really wasn't pulled in sitting there watching pre-determined battle actions unfold to an inevitable outcome. Although I will say, for a game in which you basically do nothing, there was a hell of alot of strategy in FFXII.

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Well, I agree that I do enjoy cinematics in an RPG battle system. I feel the gaming medium should use cinematics whenever they can unless it gets in the way of gameplay. RPGs generally don't make this gaming sin though I have had a few times when the cinematic camera moved to an awkward view and reversed targeting controls but these are generally few and far between.

The only problem I have with a cinematic camera is that its really cool the first hundred battles, and of course most boss battles make splendid use of it but after awhile, you stop noticing it. In my current playthrough of VII, I only noticed the camera again cause you brought it back to my attention in another thread. Its actually a really cool camera system but it didn't change the fact I stopped noticing it a few hours into the game. Even then, most RPGs don't make good use of dynamic camera systems, barely changing the angle every battle and only utilizing it when the character uses a special move or spell and even then most RPGs don't use it well including FF.

My love of XII's camera system has more to do with the exploration aspect of the game. I feel it created better immersion by allowing you to see the world around you. Perhaps not very good at making battles feel special but it made exploring the cities and landscape far more exciting. Other games that use similar camera styles also utilized it for puzzles and hidden treasure. I'm a little bias cause I really dislike pre-rendered backgrounds with 3D models ever since the days of VII. I just never felt it worked well in 3D. Besides, today's technology makes me feel its a relic of the past.

Course I believe we can reach an agreement, a cinematic camera is still easily possible without returning back to random encounters. A seamless transition from exploration to a dynamic battle system is quite plausible and to be honest; I feel XIII may perhaps be the game to show us.

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I don't know what to say about RPG cliches. When it comes to art, you can quantify techniques and categorize established methods, but there's something beyond that when it comes to judging whether something is good or not. Shining Force is probably the most cliche RPG I've ever played, but it's one of my favorites, I just have fun playing it, and its sequel is probably my favorite 16-bit RPG. I think a game could follow all 15 of those points (except for the specific and unseen weapon conditions) and still be a great game.

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I actually agree, Persona 3 hits many of the biggest RPG cliches and still I feel its one of the best RPGs to come out in a decade. I can't believe how much it blew me away. Yet here I see the problem with cliches. I feel they are labeled thus cause very few RPGs use them alot and very few ever use them well. I can forgive a game using certain cliches if its done really well or has a unique spin to it but if its not used effectively I can understand how it takes away from the enjoyment factor. Not so much the gameplay aspect but the story aspect. Its getting harder to find a good RPG that doesn't poorly rip off ideas from the genres 20+ year history.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

. Its actually a really cool camera system but it didn't change the fact I stopped noticing it a few hours into the game.

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Agreed.

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I actually agree, Persona 3 hits many of the biggest RPG cliches and still I feel its one of the best RPGs to come out in a decade. I can't believe how much it blew me away. Yet here I see the problem with cliches. I feel they are labeled thus cause very few RPGs use them alot and very few ever use them well. I can forgive a game using certain cliches if its done really well or has a unique spin to it but if its not used effectively I can understand how it takes away from the enjoyment factor. Not so much the gameplay aspect but the story aspect. Its getting harder to find a good RPG that doesn't poorly rip off ideas from the genres 20+ year history.

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To tell the truth, that's probably the reason I haven't played as many new RPG's, other than Square-Enix DS games, in the last few years. I kind of feel like Japan has taken a backseat, relying on what it already knows - this could really be the first time in gaming that you actually see developers going back to older tech for new products. I want to see a new game that is not only very good, but actually makes some noise, too. Although I have yet to play Persona 3, it continues to appeal to me more and more.

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Originally Posted by Bolivar

To tell the truth, that's probably the reason I haven't played as many new RPG's, other than Square-Enix DS games, in the last few years. I kind of feel like Japan has taken a backseat, relying on what it already knows - this could really be the first time in gaming that you actually see developers going back to older tech for new products. I want to see a new game that is not only very good, but actually makes some noise, too. Although I have yet to play Persona 3, it continues to appeal to me more and more.

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I find myself having the same problem with the genre, but I highly recommend you at least check out P3. It starts a little slow but once the Social Links pop in you get hooked pretty quickly trying to sort out your schedule. The game is incredibly well done and features, though not the most original plot, the characters themselves drive it into a compelling opera. The battle system is also nothing to sneeze at. :cool: