Over-rated games?

[Old Manus]

This thread got boring after the tl;dr kicked in

[leeza]And posting stuff like improves it? You know better. ~ Leeza[/leeza]

[Madame Adequate]

Katamari Damacy is another overrated game. Although it was fun, it got tedious quickly when I found out the only thing to do in the game was roll a giant ball and pick up things. We Love Katamari remedied this by having certain stages consist of rolling up certain items instead of it just being get the ball to a certain height by a certain time. Also, the music in the game was good, but a lot of people claim it to be one of the best OSTs in the gaming world, but it isn't close IMO.

I think it has one of the best OSTs for anything ever, not just gaming. I also think it's freaking fantastic and I'd be inclined to put it in the underrated thread

I would argue the abuse of Limit Breaks started in FFVII. They build up faster in that game than any other FF their in, there's an item that allows you to make it build up faster (sometimes after one minor hit) and even the non-multi hit Limit Breaks are overpowered, especially since they come way too frequently... FFVIII may get the hate for abusive Limit Breaks but it really started in FFVII...

Wait, what's this item? The only way to get faster limit buildups is through being in Fury, i.e. using a Hyper on someone. I've never come across any item that lets them build up in one minor hit unless you're talking about level 1 limits, in fury, in endgame.

[Wolf Kanno]

Sorry about that, I should have restated that. "Minor" was not the right word but I've noticed with the Level 1 and 2 Limit Breaks, and a character with Fury status you can easily knock a character into full Limit Guage with an attack that can take out 1/2 your health.

I guess in a normal RPG that would be considered a lethal or at least "major" hit but in the later FF's it was rare for something to actually be able to hit you, knock your character into full limit gauge and then live to see the next round. I'll retract my statement but I still feel they were too convenient and powerful...

[Ishin Ookami]

As for Tidus being well written... I would mostly say yes, except for one tiny (make that major) issue. Tidus' plot twist...

All right children, today Wolf is going to explain to you about a literary device we call the "Deus ex Machina" it gains it's origins from Greek plays. In those plays, sometimes the writers wanted a specific type of ending or event to happen but on the way to writing this wonderful scenario they wrote themselves into a corner. To resolve this issue they would write a god to come in and fix the situation so the story could go back on course. This was presented in the plays by using an ancient pulley machine to lower a statue of a god onto the stage, thus machine god or deus ex machina. See you learned something and "knowing is half the battle"

Warning spoilers...

(SPOILER)Tidus' plot twist regarding him coming from the dream world created by the faeyth one of these scenarios. Not only does it make the writer's escape from having to explain why Tidus' is a thousand years in the future but it also builds up for the "twist" ending. Instead of seeing Yuna die, we get to watch Tidus cease to exist. Still a sappy ending to a boring love story. Anyway... it's only place their to resolve one writing issue and to create another improbable one. The real bad thing about it, is the fact it leads to more confusing questions. Is Tidus real? Did he exist in the past or was he solely created in the dream world? If he doesn't really exist, how can Jecht (who is also part of this whole mess) become an aeon? What are the qualifications to become an aeon? What is reality?

Beyond that, he's not too terribly written...

Actually, that is not so much as Deus Ex machina, as it is throwing in dramatic irony as well as tradgedy. During the game, we all know before Tidus does, that Yuna is fated to die. Tidus is a character who is full of life and joy, dreams and hopes. The sort of character you really can't see giving up his life, because he loves it so much. Yuna on the other hand has resolved herself to dying. A core part of her character is that she is very much afraid to live, because it will make her eventual sacrifice that much more difficult for her.

As for the main plot twist, and it's eventual impact on the story, I find it delicious. Tidus goes willingly into that good night, embracing his fate passionately, choosing to to die fighting for those that he loves. It is not so much about living, but how he chooses to live, and he refuses to live a life in fear and forcing his burdens upon others. Yuna is left to face a even more difficult life, a life of learning to truly be alive, and following her dreams. Her life mirrors that of Spira, and we feel the peoples plight and struggle because she embodies the same principles in her character, for good and for ill. The fact that Tidus was in essence, a dream given form adds a further twist of irony. Spira was a land that embraced conformity, shunning any change and rebellion, any dreams of something different and embracing it's fate. Tidus was in the most literal sense, proof that dreams and hopes could be made into reality. And Yuna, who fell in love with a dream, is only now finding the courage to hope for something better for Spira, and for herself.

You say Tidus's plot twist embodies Deus Ex Machina, but I find instead that it helps to put in the themes of role reversal, and dramatic irony into the games climax. Deus Ex Machina is commonly used to create a happy ending, and also, as you stated, get the story out of the corner tht the writer put it in. But it was obvious from the very beginning that there was something strange with Tidus's world, and it's relationship with Spira. The hymn of the faith, how did Jecht and Auron travel from both worlds, as well as that creepy kid that you often saw, are all present from the beginning and help further the mystery of Spira's connection to Zanarkand. The plot twist was hinted at many times, and obviously planned from the start. So I don't think you can rightfully call that Deus Ex Machina. Now Aeriths role in Advent Children, THAT is deus ex machina x5. But I'd rather not open that can of worms right now.

Oh yah, and the game is five years old by this point. I think that exceeds any statute of limitations, hence why I give no spoiler warnings.

[Zeldy]

Grand Theft Auto.

totally.

[Gnostic Yevon]

Well, it looks like we have our very own Goethe in the forums!
How can you know that they wrote themselves into a corner? You CANT! Anyway, every Final Fantasy has these cheesy plot twists, yes EVEN Final Fantasy VI. Yet I still like every FF apart from FFX-2.
The Limit Break bar in FF7 never filled up in one hit unless it was a move that should of actually killed you.

I'm no where near being a modern day Goethe As for the twist being due to writing issues or just a sad writer's over-active imagination is completely debatable and will generally come down to personal opinion. Yes I understand that odd and weird plot twist's are a reluctant tradition in the FF series going all the way back to the beginiing. I just feel this is one of the worst in the series.

I'm just venting frustration cause this was the moment that killed any hope of this game redeeming itself storywise for me. So please don't personally attack me cause I'm stating an opinion. I don't mind you refuting my statements but patronizing, name calling? I'll try to be more civil and I'm sorry if I offended you. It's just difficult for me not to get worked up cause this game really irritates me.

I think this is actually more of an example of "Anime conceit". What happens in a lot of Animes is that they'll throw in a plot twist that makes no sense. Everybody watching knows it makes no sense. The only reason it ends up in the story at all is that it sounds "philosophical". It would be stuff like the Xenosaga Zohars being named after the 12 apostles (and Zohar being a part of Jewish mysticism), or "zomg, life is just a dream!", or something similar. It doesn't add much to the story, in fact most of the time you can skip that part of the story and everything still makes sense. They're in the story just to make Otaku think the story is deep. I'm not sure if the Tidus thing qualifies, but they are fairly common.

[Cruise Control]

I deem Street Fighter 2 Turbo (SNES) over-rated. I recently was playing, and realized how crap it was. The controls were lack luster, the music blows, and it isn't fun.

[Wolf Kanno]

First, I would like to congratulate you Ishin Ookami for being the first person to actually come up with a good argument for this complaint. Just me muttering the fact I don't like FFX usually gets the fanboys and fangirls screaming and cursing my name without ever giving a well thought out argument against my complaint (Wow, it's just like when FFVII first came out all over again...) but seriously, I must commend you. Unfortunately, I feel the twist was too bizarre and came out of left field for me to honestly believe it was completely planned. At which point I have to say I completely agree with Gnostic Yevon on what it truly was.

The real problem with it, is mostly the fact that it begins to tear apart some of the logic. Was Tidus even real? I mean him and Jecht got to go with Auron at the end but that still doesn't answer the question. Hell did Tidus ever really exist? Is he based on someone real or is he a spirit of the dead trapped in the dream? But that doesn't make sense cause the Sending should have made him pass on. But as you try to answer each question it just gets more weird and strange and eventually the logic and meaning behind it gets lost. Interesting enough, this is the only complaint I have against Tidus. Yes, a FFX hater who actually likes Tidus.

Now this is not saying that you are wrong, as I stated before to Croyles, I feel this will always come down to personal opinion and never be resolved. For me, your argument is has many strong points about symbolism but once again Gnostic Yevon spoke my argument for me. It's a nice way to view Tidus being a dream but I feel that's more of your personal interpretation than what it really was. Just as my feeling about the twist has a similiar effect for you. Like I stated to I'm my own MILF, we should just agree to disagree, cause I don't see either of us changing each other's minds.

[Ishin Ookami]

The real problem with it, is mostly the fact that it begins to tear apart some of the logic. Was Tidus even real? I mean him and Jecht got to go with Auron at the end but that still doesn't answer the question. Hell did Tidus ever really exist? Is he based on someone real or is he a spirit of the dead trapped in the dream? But that doesn't make sense cause the Sending should have made him pass on. But as you try to answer each question it just gets more weird and strange and eventually the logic and meaning behind it gets lost. Interesting enough, this is the only complaint I have against Tidus. Yes, a FFX hater who actually likes Tidus.

It has been roughly two years since I finished the game, so my memory is a bit sketchy, but here is how I remember it being written.

Was Tidus real? It depends on how you deem real. He was as real as the aeons. The aeons themselves were physical manfistations of the fayeth. This was made possible by them all sharing in the same dream, harnessing their telepathic power to the point where whatever they dreamed could be made real by their will. Near Zanarkand you find a massive tower of sleeping fayeth, held in a state of self imposed suspended animation ever since Zanarkand was destroyed. They have been dreaming about Zanarkand ever since, and that many sleeping fayeth made it possible for someone from spira to enter into that dream, and vice versa in the same way it was possible to pray to the fayeth and receive an aeon.

This is why the sending never actually affected Tidus or Jecht. Technically they arent dead, and they are as real as the aeons. auron on the otherhand, well you obviously see him avoid any and all contact with anything that may reveal his secret until the end. Even though there are several hints throughout the game as well.

As for your prior comment about people becoming Aeons, well as I remember it, the whole purpose of the sending was that those who do not get sent face the danger of becoming monsters, since it is possible in spira for their spirits to sort of re-incarnate itself according to the persons thoughts. Apparently it is possible for one to visit Yu Yevon (as seymores mother did) and in much the same way a sacrifice becomes the next embodiment of sin, they sacrifice themselves inorder to become a guardian as an aeon. Like I said, I don't doubt I could be wrong here as It's been two years since I played, but that is how I remember it.

Also, FFX is one of my favorite FF's. The last one I really liked, probably because it was the last project sakaguchi handled before he left square. Not that I don't have issues with the game, the voice acting ran hot and cold, and I swear Nomura was throwing a hissy fit about not being made director, and came up with his most whacked out character designs ever just to derail the game. Thats the only way I can explain religous icons wearing slut wear, or even being naked in yunalesca's case. That and Yuna really did look like she stepped out of memoirs of a geishsa, and dont even get me started on riku being jail bait, or LuLu's victory animation, or the fact that half of the leading order of spira subscribes to V-neck outfits that go down to their navals.

Better stop now before I go into a Nomura hate on rant. Again.

First, I would like to congratulate you Ishin Ookami for being the first person to actually come up with a good argument for this complaint. Just me muttering the fact I don't like FFX usually gets the fanboys and fangirls screaming and cursing my name without ever giving a well thought out argument against my complaint

I hear ya on that one brother. You should check out the backlog of some of my posts on the Advent Children thread. You wanna see fanboys get hot and bothered, point out any one of the many flaws in Advent (In fact I'm hard pressed to find anything good bout the film) and the fanboys/girls will cry havok and let slip the dogs of war. As I previously stated, I find FFVII to be the poster boy for overrated in this industry. It's not really a horrible game, its perfectly adaquette and at many points, even very good. But to be blunt, I personally have never seen the appeal of Sephiroth as a villain. He burns down a village, kills a corp exec, stabs a church girl in the back and then hides in a hole for the rest of the game. Personally I think the likes of Golbuz, or even Kain from FFIV have more depth then this guy. Yet many people fawn over him and compare him to the likes of Darth Vader. I compare this to the resume of Kefka, or even Emperor Geshtahl who killed celes's mother savagely just to ensure that Terra would grow up to be the weapon he envisioned, and I wonder how can you even think to compare?

[Wolf Kanno]

The explanation is pretty accurate but it still doesn't really answer the question of whether Tidus is real. This goes into a philisophical issue about what is defined as reality but the game sadly never bothers to elaborate to the point that I feel is satisfying or at least I can logically come to my own conclusion of. I'm just not satisfied with the answer I guess.

Glad to see we do have some common ground on our views of FFVII and Advent Children, as well as a hint of Nomura

For me, FFX is my least favorite in the FFseries. It's story is simple (except for the plot twist but we've been over that) but that's because it's a character driven piece. I don't like anyone but Auron, I'm indifferent to most of the cast but I especially hate Yuna (not only does she look like a geisha, she is the personification of the "ideal" woman in feudal Japan, i.e. she has the personality of drywall) If you don't like the cast and the story is too simple to to keep you interested then the gameplay is good right?

It is, I really enjoyed it but I did feel it was a little too easy but what FF isn't easy? My issue here is just the linear dungeons (a straight line? you've got to be kidding me) the fact that I barely got in a good amount of combat in before I was bombarded by another cutscene. I want to play the game, not watch an interactive soap opera. The gameplay is good but the ratio was really out of whack. Most of the minigames were tedious except for blitzball which is still quite possibly the worst minigame in the series if not in RPG's in general (my other choice being FFIX's abysmal Tetra Master...). As an FF I feel it's the worst of the main series. As an RPG it's pretty good, I've played worse games.

[Ishin Ookami]

Glad to see we do have some common ground on our views of FFVII and Advent Children, as well as a hint of Nomura

I could go on and on about why I think Nomura is a overrated hack. I'll just say that if he didn't have such a crack team of animators and programmers and game designers working with him, making his games somewhat fun to play and pretty to look at, he would have been out of a job a long time ago. The man simply cannot write or direct worth a damn.

For me, FFX is my least favorite in the FFseries.

Oh I can think of worse. Final Fantasy VIII had far more banal characters, a storyline that made me laugh at how contrived and unoriginal it is "oh look, the bishojo is going to make the cold and misunderstood bishonen understand and value love. Gee, never seen that before In a hundred other anime series. Seifer was the most pathetic rival I have ever seen, and almost all the side characters were cardboard cutouts of industry stereotypes that all have about one or two scenes of expansion before they are forgotten. That said I often find it the ultimate of paradoxes that in all this terrible storytelling, there is Laguana, probably one of the coolest costars ever in a final fantasy. It was this guy that kept me playing FFVIII. Oh, and lets not even talk about the gameplay. yah i'll just draw the same spell a billion times and never use it since I need to junction it to pump up my stats. And you want poor storytelling, shall we talk about FFX-2?

As for Final Fantasy X, I like it plenty. FFX has one my favovorite plot twists ever, when Tidus tries to take the moral high ground with the summoners, talking about how they were all being used, and shouldn't have to give their lives. Then they just respond with how they know they are expected to sacrifice their lives, and that It is worth it to bring peact to so many, even if it is temporary. I would have liked it if the game had gone on for a little longer without any real moral high ground as the plot just became so much more interesting with that wrinkle.

As for the characters, Yuna is alright. I think the game made it plain that she did have a personality, it was just that she had to get out of all those years of conditioning before it arose. Her conflicted and dedicated nature I liked. Wakka and Auron were both well done, I often thought the most offensive thing about Riku was her voice actor, Lulu's demeanor and personality seemed to run counter clockwise with her character design and I think Sakaguchi had in mind a character similar to celes, beautiful but cool and restrained rather than the cleavage bearing prostitute Nomura advertised her as. Kimahri had the least development, but was still likeable and felt distinct. and I often think that the cast would have been even more likeable had square included the japanese language track. From the few clips I've heard, Tidus just sounds so much cooler than the english voice actor made him out to be.

[Leeza]

Ishin Ookami and Wolf Kanno, if there are areas that you wish to discuss other than the actual topic of this thread, please do so by starting another thread on that topic or through some other means, but please do not take this one off track. Thank you.

[Monol]

Ishin and Wolf...that...was awsome...though i do disagree with quite a few things you both have to say its nice to see a couple of FF fans use their powers for good...that was a highley entertaining argument to read and is the way things should be around here you two rock...just though you should know

[Fatal Impurity]

Lol its seem's you two guys have a groupie! Lol as for FF10 being the worst in the series i can completly empathise with that but...there is always FF10-2...which made FF10 look good. Im not saying that FF10 was a bad game it just wasnt anywhere near the best FF with even the old SNES FF's beating the crap outta it story/character wise.

[Neo-Omega Mk XXV]

This thread has mostly died and gone OT, but I just had to add something since I recently managed to buy two overrated games at the same time. Earlier last month I picked up MGS3 (original, not subsistence) and DQ8, mostly to tide me over until FF12 (I'm in the UK, and was waiting for the price on those games to drop). Neither of them were bad, but they were disappointing.
MGS 3 was almost ruined by the useless camera angle, the overly long durations of alert+evasion+caution modes, and the clumsy food/curing/camo interfaces. It's entirely too easy to alert the enemies unless you have incredible patience to sneak around without making mistakes. OTOH once alert mode is triggered, the enemies often behave like brain-damaged chimps, so it's possible to fight your way out with CQC anyway. In fact if it weren't for this I would just have quit the game out of frustration, but I did manage to get through it.
DQ 8 is just an above-average game that has been grossly overrated (I'm at the Dark Ruins, and have set it aside for FF12). It seems that some nebulous "old-school charm" is supposed make me ignore the stale game mechanics. RPGs should have moved away from 15 year old combat systems and game progression built around generic towns and fetch quests+errand running by now :rolleyes2.