Xeno Debate: Gears Vs. Saga

[Wolf Kanno]

I disagree with two of your hero pairing Jin/Bart and Jr./Billy. The last one especially seems to me that you just made the two gun wielders duke it out.

Alright Villains:

Wilhelm and Minag
Why they were paired - They are the game main antagonists and manipulators, their origins and natures are also the same. Miang really is the cause of all the issues in Gears much like Wilhelm is for Saga. Krelian is there but he's doing his own thing and it still only works if Miang's plan comes to fruition as well, he just added a final phase that isn't part of Miang's programming.

Both Miang and Wilhelm are non-human beings hiding within humanity to manipulate history and allow some terrible events to unfold for the sake of a goal that spans thousands of years. Neither character is truly evil or good, they are simply accomplishing a goal. Miang gets the more villainous light because her plan involves resurrecting a self aware. terraforming anti-planetary weapon system, whereas Wilhelm is simply trying to prevent human conscious from making the realm of real numbers (material world) collapse and take the world of imaginary numbers (God realm) with it by making the universe reset before it reaches a point of no return. Yet the point I'll make is that both characters are largely indifferent to their goals beyond getting them accomplished. Wilhelm is not saving the world because he feels for humanity, nor is Miang trying to end the world because she's some evil meglomaniac. They are both simply constructs fulfilling the purpose they were created for and they both do an excellent job. Granted certrain facors put a wrench in Wilhelm's plan whereas Miang ultimately succeeds in her goal (Hey its not her fault some heroes came and kicked Deus' ass after it finally got restored, her job was just to get it running again not keep it alive.). For me, Miang wins this because... well frankly I don't understand what any of you see in Wilhelm, he spends the first two game ssitting smuggly in his office clasping his hands while doing his best Mr. Burn's impressions while saying "Excellent it's all going according to plan" By the time he finally emerges as the main antagonist, I feel he's been completely overshadowed by the far more colorful Albedo and sinister Yuriev. Wilhelm flat out has no real character development and I felt his finally entering the stage was met with less "Awe" and more "About damn time". Minag to me was better because as Forsaken Lover points out, when she first appears, you don;t really expect much from her, and then as the plot goes on you see she has connections with some unsavory people but the player is still in the dark about them as well so you still don't assume her actual role and then finally it all begins to come together and you realize she really is the big manipulator and unlike Wilhelm whose big revelation was that he was the leader of ever organization in the Saga universe, Miang does all while being the most unassuming figure. Miang was a a bit of a surprise, more than Wilhelm's whose introduction and initial role in the story made it obvious he was going to be really important.

Winner: Miang

Krelian Vs Yuriev
Why are they paired - Both characters are normal people who through terrible circumstances, discover the true nature of the world and its grand conspiracy and then both try to manipulate events to pull off their own solutions. Yuriev is trying to destroy U-DO, because he mistakenly feels that U-DO is going to cause the universe to collapse, after he lost his mind during the U.M.N experiments when he made contact with U-DO. Krelian is trying to use the Zohar to ascend humanity to a higher plane of existence to end human suffering, which is why NeoCracker, Elly states Krelian was a kind person, his entire goal was to make it so no one would ever suffer again, it just involved resurrecting a machine god and awakening the true god, so humanity could ride its coattails into a higher dimension. He pretty much states this in-game. Though I will say that I feel the Yuriev/Grahf is another valid choice Forsaken Lover.

Both figures are very tragic, and both have their asshole aspects about them. To me, this comes down to whether you want interesting (Yuriev) or empathetic (Krelian) Krelian has the better character development and he's ultimately a less cartoonish villain than Yuriev, but I also can't really count out how utterly original Yuriev's storyline is, whereas Krelian takes cues from Neon Genesis Evangelion, to me it depends on what you are in the mood for.

Winner - Tie
Margulis Vs Karh Ramsus
Why are they paired - I defer to NeoCracker's post. I would also like to point out that Margulis and Ramsus have the same intros into their stories, with both characters arriving at their new base of operations and immediately interrogating a little girl for valuable information for their respected organizations. They also dress in similar clothes.



Ramsus was a man created to be the ultimate key in Solaris' plan, a copy of the aging and decrepit Cain, before he was fully grown he was cast out because Miang had discovered the Contact whom Ramsus was suppose to take the role of. This being shun before he was truly born ultimately gave Ramsus an inferiority complex that drives him and hinders him. Marguilis is a religious zealot who wants to return to Lost Jerusalem because his religious faith states his people will return their one day... which is about all I can say about Margulis. Ramsus to me is just the more interesting character because he's more multifaceted. You see the good and bad in him, and the way the other villains cruelly use his inferiority complex to manupulate him makes him a far more sympathetic being. He simply wants to belong. Margulis is just a unscrupulous zealot whose unaware of being manipulated 9course we get no real details either until the last game) but ultimately... smurf Margulis conviction, I'll take a more tragic and interesting figure (a side villain no less) over a generic military asshole who believes "the mission is everything". Now don't get me wrong, I like Margulis, he was one of my fave guys, but against Ramsus, I feel its clear that Ramsus is just a far better developed character whereas Margulis gets little to no development throught the series. Ramsus could technically fight Elly on equal footing as the secondary main character since a lot of Gears' story is about exploring him and his past.

Winner: Ramsus

Albedo Vs Grahf
Why they are paired - Both initially appear as rather cartoonish villains who then quickly usurp that assumption by being crazy and insanely powerful, and ultimately both characters emerge as their games most sympathetic and likable characters. They're both softies as well but you won't know until your a ways into the plots. I also feel that pairing either character up with anyone else but each other would have made for a one sided deal. I mean techinically an argument could be made for Yuriev and Id to face off with each guy but I kind of feel that both of these guys are so well rounded, they knockout the rest of the competition.

I could go on about what makes both of these guys great, but I don't have that kind of time, so for me it comes down to weaknesses. For Albedo, I feel his story arc jumps around way too much and while it all still makes since when the smoke clears, his motive throughout the games has been much like his personality, all over the place.They also kind of jump the sympathy card pretty early on him, even in Episode 1 you have enough details about his past to feel bad for the guy, Epsidoe 2 just took it to a whole new level, and by Episode 3, his actions clearly have him in the good guy territory. I honestly feel that Albedo does outstay his welcome, Episode 2 (before the final scene) would have been a great conclusion to his story but he's a fan favorite and gets brought back for the third game where he largely doe nothing until the big showdown with Yuriev, so I kind of feel Albedo's story is weakened in the end because his time as a Testament seemed kind of wasted potential to me, it isn't helped that his charming qualities of being battrout crazy is totally absent in this game either. He just ultimately came across very muted, which seemed like a sad way to end such an energetic figure.He still gets a nice ending, but I kind of feel the writer's overextended their hand with him.

Grahf... Is a bit too cartoonishly evil for a long time in the game, while he proves quickly he's a badass, he takes much longer to develop into someone who doesn't look like he stepped out of a Super Sentai series. By the time you reach the end of Disc 1 you're kind of wondering what's going on with him because he's saved Fei and Elly's life a number of times and he comes across more conflicted than the sure MWHHHAHAHAHA evil he started off as. Disc 2 pretty much lays his story on thick for you, but sadly after the revelation of his past and who he is, you only really get one more scene with him so the pacing of his story is off for my taste. He still gets his final moment where he redeems himself but it does feel forced due to the games rushed finale.

Winner - Tie Don't make me choose

Herman and Richard Vs. The Elements

Why they are paired - They are the recurring flunkies the game tries to convince you are all that, but are largely pushovers.

The Elements got this, largely because they are quirky and fun to watch on screen, whereas Herman and Richard get absolutely no character development and you only find out any info on them and what they even look like (their always piloting their Mecha) unless you go through Japanese only source materials or read the datalogs in-game. The Elements at least have a bit more story and rationale as to why they stick by Ramsus. They are also a Super Semntai team. So extra points their.

Winner - The Elements

To me there are no other real comparisons. The Gazel Ministry, Id, The Testaments, and even Elly's Lamb Unit have no really comparable counterpart. I'll do my write up the heroes when I have more time.

[Forsaken Lover]

I think they jumped the sympathy shark with Albedo when he was literally carried away by angels who resembled the innocent little girls he mutilated to death.

Also The Elements win out over Richard and Herman just because of teh wonderful hentai material they provide.
Reminds me of my all-time favorite Xeno hentai where a dominatrix Elly is playing with a bound Dominia. It's just so... "this is not what I expected to see at all but now I've seen it, I am glad it exists".

[Wolf Kanno]

I think they jumped the sympathy shark with Albedo when he was literally carried away by angels who resembled the innocent little girls he mutilated to death.

I completely forgot about that... Might have to give it to Grahf if wasn't for the fact Grahf has a damn catch phrase. Though he still has my favorite line in the game.

“Even if I go to hell, I will live till the end of this world. And if the world does not come to an end... I will destroy it with my own hands!” –Lacan

In fact in just trying to find this quote I found a cool quote page that seriously reminded me of how many great lines there were in this game. Say what you will about its gameplay, but its writing was ahead of its time for the genre.

[Forsaken Lover]

That quote is indeed fantastic and it is just the exclamation mark on possibly the most powerful scene in the game.



Al can't touch that.

[NeoCracker]

I disagree with two of your hero pairing Jin/Bart and Jr./Billy. The last one especially seems to me that you just made the two gun wielders duke it out.

Purely coincidental I assure you, I simply had no other pairings.

The Hereos in this are pretty much such that you can't do any real pairings that don't come across with serious problems if you analyze the parallels to much.

Wilhelm and Minag
Why they were paired - They are the game main antagonists and manipulators, their origins and natures are also the same. Miang really is the cause of all the issues in Gears much like Wilhelm is for Saga. Krelian is there but he's doing his own thing and it still only works if Miang's plan comes to fruition as well, he just added a final phase that isn't part of Miang's programming.

Both Miang and Wilhelm are non-human beings hiding within humanity to manipulate history and allow some terrible events to unfold for the sake of a goal that spans thousands of years. Neither character is truly evil or good, they are simply accomplishing a goal. Miang gets the more villainous light because her plan involves resurrecting a self aware. terraforming anti-planetary weapon system, whereas Wilhelm is simply trying to prevent human conscious from making the realm of real numbers (material world) collapse and take the world of imaginary numbers (God realm) with it by making the universe reset before it reaches a point of no return. Yet the point I'll make is that both characters are largely indifferent to their goals beyond getting them accomplished. Wilhelm is not saving the world because he feels for humanity, nor is Miang trying to end the world because she's some evil meglomaniac. They are both simply constructs fulfilling the purpose they were created for and they both do an excellent job. Granted certrain facors put a wrench in Wilhelm's plan whereas Miang ultimately succeeds in her goal (Hey its not her fault some heroes came and kicked Deus' ass after it finally got restored, her job was just to get it running again not keep it alive.). For me, Miang wins this because... well frankly I don't understand what any of you see in Wilhelm, he spends the first two game ssitting smuggly in his office clasping his hands while doing his best Mr. Burn's impressions while saying "Excellent it's all going according to plan" By the time he finally emerges as the main antagonist, I feel he's been completely overshadowed by the far more colorful Albedo and sinister Yuriev. Wilhelm flat out has no real character development and I felt his finally entering the stage was met with less "Awe" and more "About damn time". Minag to me was better because as Forsaken Lover points out, when she first appears, you don;t really expect much from her, and then as the plot goes on you see she has connections with some unsavory people but the player is still in the dark about them as well so you still don't assume her actual role and then finally it all begins to come together and you realize she really is the big manipulator and unlike Wilhelm whose big revelation was that he was the leader of ever organization in the Saga universe, Miang does all while being the most unassuming figure. Miang was a a bit of a surprise, more than Wilhelm's whose introduction and initial role in the story made it obvious he was going to be really important.

Winner: Miang

I think both Krellian and Miang are pretty good comparisons to Windhelm, though I still hold Krellian is more apt. Miang may have manipulated Krellian into doing all this, but really it seemed to be Krellian doing the actual planning and moving, much like Windhelm.

And the thing we like so much about Wilhelm is that he isn't just some emotionless thing, he seems to genuinely care about the people he's trying to save. Someone who is 'neither good nor evil and simply just wants to accomplish it's goal' doesn't say the following.

About Albedo: He has a will that shines with such a wondrous Light. It's a shame he serves as little more then a key."
To paraphrase the other, at the end of Episode 2 he seems happy that Chaos, a guy who can potentially interfere with his plans, is going to be entering the stage and 'no longer holding back'.

Not to mention the end, where he seems genuinely happy that they seem to finding another way to prevent the end, even if them doing so risks the end of the universe. None of these are the actions of some guy whose only purpose is to complete his goal. This also is what makes him more comparable to Krellian. Krellian I just thought they did a completely trout job portraying it.

These are the actions and worlds of a man who truly cares about the world, even if at times he doesn't fully understand the people in it. The Idea you can think otherwise astounds me.

That said, for the reasons above, He still out classes Miang in her entirety. Were as she does all of these terrible things out of complete lack of any kind of Morals, Wilhelm does it out of what he feels is necessary and quite frankly the only way to save the universe.

Krelian Vs Yuriev
Why are they paired - Both characters are normal people who through terrible circumstances, discover the true nature of the world and its grand conspiracy and then both try to manipulate events to pull off their own solutions. Yuriev is trying to destroy U-DO, because he mistakenly feels that U-DO is going to cause the universe to collapse, after he lost his mind during the U.M.N experiments when he made contact with U-DO. Krelian is trying to use the Zohar to ascend humanity to a higher plane of existence to end human suffering, which is why NeoCracker, Elly states Krelian was a kind person, his entire goal was to make it so no one would ever suffer again, it just involved resurrecting a machine god and awakening the true god, so humanity could ride its coattails into a higher dimension. He pretty much states this in-game. Though I will say that I feel the Yuriev/Grahf is another valid choice Forsaken Lover.

Both figures are very tragic, and both have their asshole aspects about them. To me, this comes down to whether you want interesting (Yuriev) or empathetic (Krelian) Krelian has the better character development and he's ultimately a less cartoonish villain than Yuriev, but I also can't really count out how utterly original Yuriev's storyline is, whereas Krelian takes cues from Neon Genesis Evangelion, to me it depends on what you are in the mood for.

Winner - Tie

You already know my thoughts on Krellian, and clearly I still give it to Yuriev. I'll just point out that Yuriev isn't trying to kill God, as stated in episode 3 he claims no one can kill U-DO. His goal is to 'absorb that fear into himself and become a god'. He wants to overcome the fear within himself. Bit of a nitpick, but still felt the need to correct you.

Margulis Vs Karh Ramsus
Why are they paired - I defer to NeoCracker's post. I would also like to point out that Margulis and Ramsus have the same intros into their stories, with both characters arriving at their new base of operations and immediately interrogating a little girl for valuable information for their respected organizations. They also dress in similar clothes.



Ramsus was a man created to be the ultimate key in Solaris' plan, a copy of the aging and decrepit Cain, before he was fully grown he was cast out because Miang had discovered the Contact whom Ramsus was suppose to take the role of. This being shun before he was truly born ultimately gave Ramsus an inferiority complex that drives him and hinders him. Marguilis is a religious zealot who wants to return to Lost Jerusalem because his religious faith states his people will return their one day... which is about all I can say about Margulis. Ramsus to me is just the more interesting character because he's more multifaceted. You see the good and bad in him, and the way the other villains cruelly use his inferiority complex to manupulate him makes him a far more sympathetic being. He simply wants to belong. Margulis is just a unscrupulous zealot whose unaware of being manipulated 9course we get no real details either until the last game) but ultimately... smurf Margulis conviction, I'll take a more tragic and interesting figure (a side villain no less) over a generic military asshole who believes "the mission is everything". Now don't get me wrong, I like Margulis, he was one of my fave guys, but against Ramsus, I feel its clear that Ramsus is just a far better developed character whereas Margulis gets little to no development throught the series. Ramsus could technically fight Elly on equal footing as the secondary main character since a lot of Gears' story is about exploring him and his past.

Winner: Ramsus

'The Mission is everything' isn't really right. 'The Goal is everything' is much more apt. Were it the mission, he would have obeyed Heinline's orders to withhold the Immigrant fleet. Instead he tell's Heinline at the end that he will never relinquish his home. He is fighting in equal parts Religious zealotry and heritage. The breaking of Margulis is also more spaced then Ramsus, happening slowly throughout the events of Episode three. While Ramsus could potentially make the more sympathetic character he himself just wasn't written well enough to make me care.

And I have never been a fan of Villains that were there for the sole purpose of getting their ass kicked by you. Krellian marked one of the reason's it's hard to feel Solaris as a hole was suppose to be threatening. He was pretty much the top general next to Krellian, yet never did I really feel he would be capable of defeating me. Especially not after ID woke up and kicked his ass.

Margulis on the other hand both comes with some growth that makes me feel bad for him, some great story and character bits, as well as being imposing as all hell? Even if Ramsus were to be more sympathetic, Margulis wins out overall for me.

Albedo Vs Grahf
Why they are paired - Both initially appear as rather cartoonish villains who then quickly usurp that assumption by being crazy and insanely powerful, and ultimately both characters emerge as their games most sympathetic and likable characters. They're both softies as well but you won't know until your a ways into the plots. I also feel that pairing either character up with anyone else but each other would have made for a one sided deal. I mean techinically an argument could be made for Yuriev and Id to face off with each guy but I kind of feel that both of these guys are so well rounded, they knockout the rest of the competition.

I could go on about what makes both of these guys great, but I don't have that kind of time, so for me it comes down to weaknesses. For Albedo, I feel his story arc jumps around way too much and while it all still makes since when the smoke clears, his motive throughout the games has been much like his personality, all over the place.They also kind of jump the sympathy card pretty early on him, even in Episode 1 you have enough details about his past to feel bad for the guy, Epsidoe 2 just took it to a whole new level, and by Episode 3, his actions clearly have him in the good guy territory. I honestly feel that Albedo does outstay his welcome, Episode 2 (before the final scene) would have been a great conclusion to his story but he's a fan favorite and gets brought back for the third game where he largely doe nothing until the big showdown with Yuriev, so I kind of feel Albedo's story is weakened in the end because his time as a Testament seemed kind of wasted potential to me, it isn't helped that his charming qualities of being battrout crazy is totally absent in this game either. He just ultimately came across very muted, which seemed like a sad way to end such an energetic figure.He still gets a nice ending, but I kind of feel the writer's overextended their hand with him.

Grahf... Is a bit too cartoonishly evil for a long time in the game, while he proves quickly he's a badass, he takes much longer to develop into someone who doesn't look like he stepped out of a Super Sentai series. By the time you reach the end of Disc 1 you're kind of wondering what's going on with him because he's saved Fei and Elly's life a number of times and he comes across more conflicted than the sure MWHHHAHAHAHA evil he started off as. Disc 2 pretty much lays his story on thick for you, but sadly after the revelation of his past and who he is, you only really get one more scene with him so the pacing of his story is off for my taste. He still gets his final moment where he redeems himself but it does feel forced due to the games rushed finale.

Winner - Tie Don't make me choose

Yeah, I'll disagree on Albedo overextending his stay, even if I do agree that he wasn't really used much. The big reason is yes, it was kind of a good send off for him since he wanted to die, but at the same time even from Episode 2 it was clear that wasn't really what he wanted. It was always clear he just wanted to be with his brother. I guess whether or not you have a problem with them giving the psycho what he wanted in the end bothers you is another story entirely.

And yeah, the angle thing was a little much. I won't say it came entirely out of no where due to the Kirswasser's comments from Episode 1, but yeah. Not letting one oddly picked scene ruin it for me

And I don't think I'd call it Good guy territory. I mean he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar, and his actions were pretty much entirely for the benefit of Rubedo and no one else. I mean good compared to anything else he has done sure.

Herman and Richard Vs. The Elements

Why they are paired - They are the recurring flunkies the game tries to convince you are all that, but are largely pushovers.

The Elements got this, largely because they are quirky and fun to watch on screen, whereas Herman and Richard get absolutely no character development and you only find out any info on them and what they even look like (their always piloting their Mecha) unless you go through Japanese only source materials or read the datalogs in-game. The Elements at least have a bit more story and rationale as to why they stick by Ramsus. They are also a Super Semntai team. So extra points their.

Winner - The Elements

To me there are no other real comparisons. The Gazel Ministry, Id, The Testaments, and even Elly's Lamb Unit have no really comparable counterpart. I'll do my write up the heroes when I have more time.

Yes, let's pair people with at least some relevance to two guys there for the purpose of filler. Of course Elements win.

[Forsaken Lover]

On another facet of Xeno vs. Xeno, I think I prefer Gears' soundtrack to any of the OSTs in the Saga Trilogy. Don't get me wrong, Mitsuda was great as usual and Kajiura was superb. Episode 3 also has a pro over both Gears and Episode 1 in that it has a great variety of awesome fight themes which really helps keep the action fresh. Fighting T-elos the final time with this playing helped make that moment forever special to me.

T-elos kinda has a Grahf vibe to her doesn't she. She's the "dark" version of one of the main characters and she and Grahf both want to merge with said character. They also have very similar lines in their corresponding final encounters:

Grahf: "You have awakened. This body is now useless to me. Now I must return to my original body... the reincarnation of my body that you inhabit."-
T-elos:"Mary Magdalene, my will. You've finally awakened. Now that Mary's will has awakened within KOS-MOS, I will take it inside me and complete my resurrection, as the true Mary Magdalene."

Grahf: "He has become one with me, so you too should open your heart and unite with me."
T-elos: "Surrender and become part of me, KOS-MOS!"

T-elos doesn't actually have a personality though. It seems like it because she's so much more emotional than Kossy is normally but apparently that's just an artificial construct made by Kevin.

But yeah, I'm gonna try playing Hepatica next time I have the final showdown with Grahf.

Uh...where was I now? Oh yeah! The music!

So EP3 sweeps in terms of awesome battle themes even though i really like "The Awakening" and "The One Who Bares Fangs At God." It also wins in terms of area music since, again, both XG and EP1 were sorely lacking in that department.
But everything else? I take Gears.

There are plenty of emotional pieces in both Episode 1 and 3 but, for me, none compare to tracks like Shattering Egg of Dreams or Lost...Broken Shards (which is painfully short here but can play for quite a long time in some scens) or Distant/Faraway Promise. Inuyasha has taught me the value of giving your lovers a remarkably beautiful and sweet theme song and Xenogears sports one of the best with this music box tune.

I also think The One Who Is Torn Apart is probably the most interesting piece on any of series' soundtracks. Considering who's theme it is, it's so....light and almost gentle. But therein lies the perfection of the theme. All that softness in the theme is underscored by a melancholy and ominous aspect that perfectly fits Id. He may be a raging beast of destruction but he's not really a Grahf type who needs a big bombastic tune as a backdrop to his villainy. His slow mix of both sadness and creepiness is an excellent fit for a villain who is a force of nature on the outside but a fractured human being on the inside. Having him annihilate your party to this song during the boss fight is just exquisite.

And of course Gears isn't lacking in the just straight up AWESOME music department either. Since were just talking about the Elements, how about I link to one of the best tracks in all of Gears and Saga being used in the best scene in either Gears or Saga.

[Wolf Kanno]

I think both Krellian and Miang are pretty good comparisons to Windhelm, though I still hold Krellian is more apt. Miang may have manipulated Krellian into doing all this, but really it seemed to be Krellian doing the actual planning and moving, much like Windhelm.

And the thing we like so much about Wilhelm is that he isn't just some emotionless thing, he seems to genuinely care about the people he's trying to save. Someone who is 'neither good nor evil and simply just wants to accomplish it's goal' doesn't say the following.

About Albedo: He has a will that shines with such a wondrous Light. It's a shame he serves as little more then a key."
To paraphrase the other, at the end of Episode 2 he seems happy that Chaos, a guy who can potentially interfere with his plans, is going to be entering the stage and 'no longer holding back'.

Not to mention the end, where he seems genuinely happy that they seem to finding another way to prevent the end, even if them doing so risks the end of the universe. None of these are the actions of some guy whose only purpose is to complete his goal. This also is what makes him more comparable to Krellian. Krellian I just thought they did a completely trout job portraying it.

These are the actions and worlds of a man who truly cares about the world, even if at times he doesn't fully understand the people in it. The Idea you can think otherwise astounds me.

That said, for the reasons above, He still out classes Miang in her entirety. Were as she does all of these terrible things out of complete lack of any kind of Morals, Wilhelm does it out of what he feels is necessary and quite frankly the only way to save the universe.

I disagree about Wilhelm coming off as caring, to me it seems more like a he's happy to not be bored. Yes let's give the resident psycho path a good start, oh hey, chaos is actually going to do something instead of letting me pull off recurrence again... to me this isn't the signs of a caring guy, just an immortal being who is bored and happy to finally have something come up to challenge hiw well oiled conspiracy machine. I also still stand by the fact that Wilhelm's total lack of development and being mostly a non-entity for two and half games just kills any means for someone to actually give a damn. As I said, Miang wins because her reveal as the big bad was far better handled as opposed to Wilhelm where it became obvious after the first game and then the rest of the story is simply spent with the player wishing he would finally come off his high horse and actually do something. When he finally does, he's already been outclasses by the more involving Albedo and Yuriev. Even among Saga's villains, I feel Wilhelm is my least favorite because there was nothing ever there to really set him apart from the rest. They tried to recreate Miang and Krelian with him and his lack of screen time kills any means of really caring.

You already know my thoughts on Krellian, and clearly I still give it to Yuriev. I'll just point out that Yuriev isn't trying to kill God, as stated in episode 3 he claims no one can kill U-DO. His goal is to 'absorb that fear into himself and become a god'. He wants to overcome the fear within himself. Bit of a nitpick, but still felt the need to correct you.

You honestly gave a troutty analysis of Krelian that only told me you really didn't understand what he was doing, and I still feel that secretly your real issue is that he never recieved the beat down you wanted to give him, but I feel that just adds to his allure. I like both characters, and both are written well, but Krelian is a far more well developed character, especially since you never really get to see Yuriev's past, simply read about it in Pied Piper.

'The Mission is everything' isn't really right. 'The Goal is everything' is much more apt. Were it the mission, he would have obeyed Heinline's orders to withhold the Immigrant fleet. Instead he tell's Heinline at the end that he will never relinquish his home. He is fighting in equal parts Religious zealotry and heritage. The breaking of Margulis is also more spaced then Ramsus, happening slowly throughout the events of Episode three. While Ramsus could potentially make the more sympathetic character he himself just wasn't written well enough to make me care.

And I have never been a fan of Villains that were there for the sole purpose of getting their ass kicked by you. Krellian marked one of the reason's it's hard to feel Solaris as a hole was suppose to be threatening. He was pretty much the top general next to Krellian, yet never did I really feel he would be capable of defeating me. Especially not after ID woke up and kicked his ass.

Margulis on the other hand both comes with some growth that makes me feel bad for him, some great story and character bits, as well as being imposing as all hell? Even if Ramsus were to be more sympathetic, Margulis wins out overall for me.

Seriously, you're going to to argue semantics? You know the internet debate rules, Rule #2 - When you have to start arguing the language used in the debate to prove your point, you've already proven you have nothing left to go on. ( For those interested, here's Rule #1). The fact is Margulis has little development and I don't feel that a bit of questioning his superiors in the last third of the plot amounts to the same as watching the completelt mental breakdown of a character that is played beautifully across the course of a game. Margulis would work in a 16-bit RPG but Ramsus was a complex figure for the future of the genre. Also Margulis got his ass kicked by your party a number of time sin the plot, so I would argue that by the end of Episode 2, I really stopped seeing him as much of a threat and more of a stooge. At least Ramsus' defeat is pulled into his character development whereas Margulis just fails and we pretend like it never happened. Ramsus is just the better developed character and Margulis really doesn't hold his own since he's largely a stock character you can find in other games.

Yeah, I'll disagree on Albedo overextending his stay, even if I do agree that he wasn't really used much. The big reason is yes, it was kind of a good send off for him since he wanted to die, but at the same time even from Episode 2 it was clear that wasn't really what he wanted. It was always clear he just wanted to be with his brother. I guess whether or not you have a problem with them giving the psycho what he wanted in the end bothers you is another story entirely.

It's more that he's brought back for a cameo. I'm annoyed because I felt him being a Testament would be a bigger deal but since Albedo has a knack for stealing the limelight from the rest of the cast, he gets thrown in as a background character for most of the game so we can finally develop the rest of the villains.

In fact, I would point out this is my main gripe with Saga's villains. With the exception of Albedo and maybe Vergil, the rest of the villains get no development until the last game, or in Yuriev's case, in Japan exclusive side content. They are a great set of villains but they are just never as well developed for me as Xenogears villains were. Albedo is the best villain in Saga, but its also because he gets two and half games to develop him whereas the rest of the villains only get Episode III to really define them with varying results.

And yeah, the angle thing was a little much. I won't say it came entirely out of no where due to the Kirswasser's comments from Episode 1, but yeah. Not letting one oddly picked scene ruin it for me

I'm not letting this slide, Albedo gets a lame ass overly pretentious send off scene that is more laughable and mood killing than anything else in his plot and it doesn't bother you, but looking at other posts, its because of these "mood killing scenes" that you dislike characters like Billy and Maria and totally ruin any means of caring about them? A bit hypocritical maybe?

And I don't think I'd call it Good guy territory. I mean he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar, and his actions were pretty much entirely for the benefit of Rubedo and no one else. I mean good compared to anything else he has done sure.

Who is one of the good guys. Thus Albedo came back to help the good guys. He's pretty much responsible for taking out Yuriev so I would say Albedo goes good guy, making a deal with the devil to come back doesn't make him ambiguous if his intentions were noble.

Yes, let's pair people with at least some relevance to two guys there for the purpose of filler. Of course Elements win.

I could compare them to Elly's Lamb Squad and they would still lose because those two nitwits have no purpose in the plot. Even the Lambs unit has the whole "We're trying to get good with the Solaris military so we can achieve higher class status" and their relationship with Elly as opposed to their rivalry with Fei and Co. show that they are actually a bunch of nice guys when it comes down to it, they just have a lot at personal stake to succeed, as opposed to Herman and Richard who are simply named flunkies that work for Pellegri.


**************************************************************************************************** *

Gears does have awesome music though I do feel Mitsuda's work on Episode 1 is actually great, its just poorly handled in where it was placed in the game (which is partly why he left the team after the game). I mean these are great tracks that play once in the game.

[Forsaken Lover]

The guy I know who is like the Xeno Guru also loves Krelian but bleh. I didn't like how late he was introduced and I didn't like how his reward for everyone he killed was to be granted godlike powers. I don't care if he wanted to suck everyone into Deus and then transport them to the higher dimension - that's only the people still alive by the time his plan came to fruition. He's probably been directly or indirectly responsible for hundreds or thousands of deaths before that.

On the named character he screwed over front, Ramsus' whole life has been Hell partly because of him. The dude literally abandoned baby Ramsus in a pile of trash.
And speaking of manipulation, he's pretty much responsible for Hammer's betrayal and death as well. He prayed on his weaknesses just like he did witH Ramsus.

So, no, I'm not going to forgive him. I might be more inclined to sympathy if he wasn't granted phenomenal cosmic powers and knowledge after all the heinous things he's done.

As for EP1 music, it's kinda weird that Inner Space plays during the Proto Merkabah dungeon but it's only one part of the song that loops over and over.

However my favorite one time only song in Episode 1 is "Beach of Nothingness". It's what plays during Margulis' speech here.


I don't think he's as 16-bit s you're making him out to be, Wolf. I think his rousing and impressive aura, and as well as his philosophy and beliefs, makes him as detailed as most other villains of the PS generation.

[NeoCracker]

I disagree about Wilhelm coming off as caring, to me it seems more like a he's happy to not be bored. Yes let's give the resident psycho path a good start, oh hey, chaos is actually going to do something instead of letting me pull off recurrence again... to me this isn't the signs of a caring guy, just an immortal being who is bored and happy to finally have something come up to challenge hiw well oiled conspiracy machine. I also still stand by the fact that Wilhelm's total lack of development and being mostly a non-entity for two and half games just kills any means for someone to actually give a damn. As I said, Miang wins because her reveal as the big bad was far better handled as opposed to Wilhelm where it became obvious after the first game and then the rest of the story is simply spent with the player wishing he would finally come off his high horse and actually do something. When he finally does, he's already been outclasses by the more involving Albedo and Yuriev. Even among Saga's villains, I feel Wilhelm is my least favorite because there was nothing ever there to really set him apart from the rest. They tried to recreate Miang and Krelian with him and his lack of screen time kills any means of really caring.

I think they gave him just enough Screen time actually. True, he didn't get a whole lot, but how would you go about giving a lot of screen time to the guy working entirely from the shadows? I don't deny Miang's reveal was handled very well, but Wilhelm was never intended to be a reveal. You were never intended to be surprised when the characters learn it's Wilhelm involved, so to judge him based off that is silly. Especially with Chaos invovled, there really is no reason he would ever be convinced anyone besides Wilhelm is invovled, so the decide to not bother hiding it from the player.

And your inability to grasp Wilhelm's motives are your own problem. ;P

I don't really think Wilhelm is a villain who would get a whole lot from more screen time, or at least not a lot more. He could have used a bit of time devouted to the events surrounding the Sealing of Anima, but I don't think he was lacking to the point you seem to think. (For example, I loved his bits as Heinlien.)

Seriously, you're going to to argue semantics? You know the internet debate rules, Rule #2 - When you have to start arguing the language used in the debate to prove your point, you've already proven you have nothing left to go on. ( For those interested, here's Rule #1). The fact is Margulis has little development and I don't feel that a bit of questioning his superiors in the last third of the plot amounts to the same as watching the completelt mental breakdown of a character that is played beautifully across the course of a game. Margulis would work in a 16-bit RPG but Ramsus was a complex figure for the future of the genre. Also Margulis got his ass kicked by your party a number of time sin the plot, so I would argue that by the end of Episode 2, I really stopped seeing him as much of a threat and more of a stooge. At least Ramsus' defeat is pulled into his character development whereas Margulis just fails and we pretend like it never happened. Ramsus is just the better developed character and Margulis really doesn't hold his own since he's largely a stock character you can find in other games.

Seriously? You're going to quote BS internet debate rules? That's like, worse then breaking one of them. The 'symantics' in this case are important to establish for the purpose of what we are talking about. The goal of Margulis was the return to lost Jeruselum and the recovery of the Artificats of God. The Mission, as given to him by Wilhelm, involved giving up on the Artifacts. The Mission and Goal were in opposition to each other in this case. While he stuck to the mission for so long, he finally turned on it in favor of his goal when he orded the attack with the immigrant fleet.

And having just played the Xenosaga's, Margulis is constantly showed as a threat to your party. You first encounter him and Ziggy barely escapes by activated pre-planted C-4. At the beginning of episode 2 Jin is only spared by virtue of needing to escape.

Jin is also shown unable to fight Margulis one on one on Michtam.

Yes, he doesn't always win. But even when he loses and comes back again, he continues to be threatening. It is about more then just a win-loss record, it's about presence. He never loses his confidence, and is even consistantly effective at his job even after suffering loss's. After ID Ramsus becomes a wreck, and from then on loses any credability. You never even get a fear of fighting a guy in such a desperation. Were his only role in the story was to be pitied by me, I guess he's succeeded.

And Margulis also get's a bit more development with Jin. It's clear their connections are more then just Margulis and his goals. True, Margulis may not be the deepest character ever, but it doesn't change the development he does get is well done, and he fulfills his role in the plot smurfing marvelously.

In fact, I would point out this is my main gripe with Saga's villains. With the exception of Albedo and maybe Vergil, the rest of the villains get no development until the last game, or in Yuriev's case, in Japan exclusive side content. They are a great set of villains but they are just never as well developed for me as Xenogears villains were. Albedo is the best villain in Saga, but its also because he gets two and half games to develop him whereas the rest of the villains only get Episode III to really define them with varying results.

It was kind of troutty we never got Piep Piper, but asside from him I still really enjoy all the villains development. Only Sellers I felt got the short end of the stick, and Voyager in the absence of Piep Piper. Yuriev certainly got more with Pied Piper, but from his entrance in 2 followed up by his involvement in 3, he got plenty of development.

I'm not letting this slide, Albedo gets a lame ass overly pretentious send off scene that is more laughable and mood killing than anything else in his plot and it doesn't bother you, but looking at other posts, its because of these "mood killing scenes" that you dislike characters like Billy and Maria and totally ruin any means of caring about them? A bit hypocritical maybe?

Firstly, you want to compare a scene where he's carried off by the Realians, which had some set up from the Song of Nephalim bits from episode one, to a Giant ass kicking bunny? The Idea you consider these things at all in the same league is very telling of you. ;P

That said, not only was my dislike of Maria more then that one scene as it was her general pointless-ness, it just killed that scene.

And I didn't dislike Billy. I just thought his arc was badly handled. Especially the end, when litterally we learn in the span of 1-2 minutes we learn that weapon will kill his father, he becomes sad cause he doesn't know when he fired it that would happen, and then his dad goes 'Oh, I already fixed that bug'.

The Albedo Angel scene was at least forshadowed as far back as game one. The exact quote being... "Why do you hurt everyone? My sisters, they all loved something they saw in you. Even after all that you put them through, they still believed in you. How can you desecrate their feelings -- their hearts!?"

It is hurt by never really seeing that side of Albedo, at least not prior to game 3, but it still makes sense they would be there for him at the end. All that was wrong was they went overboard on the imagery. This, in no way compares, to giant battle bunny.

Or even worse giant crucified bunny.

Who is one of the good guys. Thus Albedo came back to help the good guys. He's pretty much responsible for taking out Yuriev so I would say Albedo goes good guy, making a deal with the devil to come back doesn't make him ambiguous if his intentions were noble.

...Noble? His goal was entirely selfish. To save his brother. Certainly not a bad thing, though he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar without any real quams. The warning came just to keep his brother safe, it's never really implied that the others, or even the world, factored into this. 'Good guy' kind of fits, but it's a bit of a stretch, though that really is an argument of semantics.

And Herman and Richard loose to anyone you'd put them against. Though a couple of their fights in 3 were a bit of a challenge.


And to end, yes, I understand Krellian's motivations. I just call bulltrout. To describe, I'll draw a different parallell to him. If we connect Wilhelm and Miang, it would make sense to pair up Krellian with Kevin. Much like Krellian, it was kevin's plans to create KOS-MOS and T-Elos, and acted to free the world from the looming fear of death.

However, at the end, he gets scolded, for lack of better term, that what he is doing is not for the good of all, but more him running away from his own humanity.

This is Krellian, only that's never really addressed and we are expected to believe it was done purely out of love. Pay no mind to the scenes of the past were he grows some obviously powerful feelings of Jealousy and other things when Elly chooses Lacan over him. The game ends by telling us love guided these actions.

So yes, I do get it and see what they were doing. I just think they did a trout job at it.

And on topic of music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=GlmQiHClfko

That song conveys such a power and disturbing tone it fit's Albedo perfectly.

[Forsaken Lover]

I really think Wolf or someone should just split all these posts off into a whole new Xenogears vs. Xenosaga thread.

There are so many other areas to compare and contrast and debate about.
I also want to see Bolivar's and others' thoughts on this matter as well. (Bolivar has played Saga right?)

[Bolivar]

I also want to see Bolivar's and others' thoughts on this matter as well. (Bolivar has played Saga right?)

Actually, the reason I've more or less stayed out of this...



Please don't think less of me, FL!!!

I'm still all for a thread on this, I love these kinds of debates esp w/ Neo, Wolf and yourself involved.

I really need to play these game soon, though...

[Ultima Shadow]

I also want to see Bolivar's and others' thoughts on this matter as well.

"I mostly agree with Neo".

However... I don't remember enough about every little thing in these games (especially Xenogears, since it left a smaller impression for me) to go into the same amount of details when comparing them, nor can I be bothered to refresh my memory by looking it all up. So I'm basically saying this: "Xenosaga's cast had a much stronger impact on me than Xenogears' cast. Xenosaga on a whole was much more interesting and appealing to me."



...I'll just leave it at that for now though, because getting further involved in the argument without properly refreshing my actual memory would be like jumping head first into a meat grinder.



...well, I guess I can add one more thing though: to me, the difference in gameplay matters here as well. Gameplay can actually have an effect on my care for characters and story. If the gameplay makes me apathetic, then I will aproach scenes that follow with a different mindset than if I enjoy the gameplay. And I really disliked the gameplay in Xenogears. Xenosaga 2 suffered a bit from this as well, however... most of its characters had already been more or less established in Xenosaga 1, which has a gameplay that I love. Had XS1 suffered from XS2's gameplay, I would probably never have gotten very far into Xenosaga at all. My only drive to get through XS2 was the story and characters, which I wanted to keep following thanks to XS1 and the fact that I knew a third game was coming, which I still had some hope for. But Xenosaga 2 left the weakest impression on me out of the 3 games not only gameplay wise, but also story-wise. Most likely because of the gameplay.

I would have enjoyed both Xenogears and Xenosaga 2 more if they had been in Visual Novel format.

[Wolf Kanno]

Because two of you demanded it!

[NeoCracker]

I wonder what they'll say when they notice my interest is already beginning to fade.

[Ultima Shadow]

Well, if nothing else, this at least spares the other thread a page of text-walls.