The Nature of Kingdom Hearts

[PuPu]

So wait, Wolf Kanno's quoting Maleficent doesn't count as it being a place/location? Or how about the fact that the you go through the door created by the worlds at the end of KHII, a door that quite obviously leads you into KH where Xemnas is?

KH ends up "inside Xemnas" with the whole "becoming one with" thing. Inside a person isn't a "place," inside your mind is also not a place (Sora vs. Xemnas at "Memory Skyscraper")

The mere fact of "going to" KH means that it is a location that you can go to. The last fight begins inside KH that has been manipulated by Xemnas.

Not really. You're saying that you're "going inside a cluster of hearts." Remind me of this the next time I go into a location called "a pile of leaves."

Why can't this be inside KH? Yes, it is a space manipulated by Xemnas who has the power of KH but that does not mean it cannot be inside KH. Furthermore, you earlier compared the merger of Xemnas and KH to that of Nobodies and their owners. And we agree that the door created by the worlds is like the DTD: it leads to KH. So if KH is "inside Xemnas" as it is according to you, and you go through the door to KH, logic indicates that you are not only inside Xemnas but also in KH since the two are one in the same.

If you consider going inside a person as a place, fine. But again, this doesn't even matter anymore since as I've said "KH is not a world, so it doesn't have barriers like the other worlds."

I think I should state this clear for you, both me and Wolf are not saying that KH is a world like Neverland, TWTNW, or whatever, we are merely stating that it is a place, a location. If I recall correctly, Wolf had said so himself earlier and now I am saying so too.

KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have world barriers. I don't need to argue this anymore.

Or it could be that it all was the KH of Men and it was partially destroyed and what remained was absorbed? Nothing says that couldn't be a possibility except for you though there is no concrete proof to say the two were merged in the first place.

I don't think you understand the difference between "partially destroyed" and "ruined," which is what Xemnas said.

Also, if the KH of Men is in the Realm of Darkness, which is the logically conclusion since you are saying it is not in TWTNW, then that means Xemnas is pretty fricken strong since he is influencing the hearts to gather and form KH of Men, since their natural inclination is to return to their body or to suspend (according to the Director's Secret Report).

Yeah, if Xemnas can make re-direct hearts away from bodies, I don't see why he can't re-direct them to the Realm of Darkness, a specific place.

Also, there is the problem of basic metaphysical placement if the KH in KHII is not in TWTNW but in the Realm of Darkness yet the Dark Coastline where Riku and Sora are at the end of KHII overlooks the Realm of Darkness. So in one case we have the Realm of Darkness "above" (in the sky) the Realm of Twilight, but in the other they are side by side. Am I the only one who thinks this is inconsistent?

You're trying to question the physics of video games? Seriously.

Technically its not even an official world of In-Between

Who the hell says it has to be a world? It's just some random place in the realm of In-Between.

You completely missed the point of my statement. The world's are seperated by Barriers, The World That Never Was is an In Between World, so its barrier should prevent people to freely move in and out of it without the aid of a Gummi Ship or a Corridor of Darkness.

What point? Sora and friends got to TWTNW with a Dark Corridor that Axel made, and Xemnas and the Org never even went to the Realm of Darkness (except for temporarily when they use Dark Corridors).

Technically, reaching Kingdom Hearts from TWTNW should be impossible

Xemnas didn't go to KH.

and the idea of summoning KH to a world outside of the Realm of Darkness

Why not? Barriers are for preventing people from crossing into worlds. KH is a bunch of hearts.

has never once been stated to happen in any of the games.

But it did just happen in KH2, regardless of whether or not it happened before.

Proof? He never once said anything about bringing KH of Worlds to him with the KH of Men.

Because...Xemnas absorbs KH without ever going to the Realm of Darkness. He was in TWTNW when he absorbed KH. It's really not that hard to understand.

You're making stuff up since you have yet to once bring real evidence to say he did this.

Oh, irony.

In KH? Yes it is. If a massive amount of Hearts leads to the creation of Heart the size of a small moon then yes its a place. A single rock may not be a place but when you get a few billion together to form a single object its a place.

Again, there's no point in arguing the definition of "place." KH isn't a world, so it doesn't have any world barriers around it, and that's all we need to know.

We don't even know what Maleficent has been doing for the last ten years or how long she has been trying to gather the Princess of Hearts. For all we know, she could have started a few months before KH1 began. Until Birth By Sleep we won't know.

Someone hasn't read up on Birth By Sleep info. Just because you don't know something, doesn't mean that it's false, like you're assuming in this entire debate.

As for Org. XIII, it took 9 years for a new Keyblade master to appear,

Mickey says "hi."

it took them little over a year to amass enough hearts for them to create a artificial KH. Yeah, its pretty easy to do when you've got the tools to pull it off.

They've still been trying to accomplish this goal for 10 years, what with Organization XIII was also being responsible for turning billions of people into Heartless in order to gather the billions of hearts that they needed. And you're acting as if Sora/Roxas were the only ones responsible for gathering all of the hearts that Xemnas used to create the KH of men.

This is completely baseless conjecture, we know very little about the Realm of Darkness so its impossible to say whether it would be difficult to find it in the KH universe.

We've seen how big the Realm of Light is, so that gives us a good sense of how big a realm is in the KH universe. Sora has actually went to the Realm of Darkness several times and saw nothing but completely blackness.

Considering the biggest hurdle for all the villains in the series is actually getting into the Realm of Darkness

Dark Corridors...

I would say its probably not that hard to find it once you get there as XH found out the hard way.

What do you mean? He only knew where it was because gathering the 7 Princesses caused it to be revealed.

No, I said the End of the World is. I did not say anything about the DTD being a place. Please stop putting words into my mouth.

Doesn't even matter. You're not in EoTW anymore by the final series of battles, and neither is the DTD.

End of the World is a place where worlds that have lost their hearts to darkness end up, Heartless are hearts that have fallen into darkness the Realm of Darkness is the smurfing Realm of Darkness.

End of the World is where fragments of a world end up because of the Heartless. The rest of that world ends up swallowed by darkness, meaning the world gets sent to the Realm of Darkness.

It makes sense the entryway to the Realm of Darkness would be a place plunged into darkness...

You're not in EoTW anymore in the final series of battles.

The door that appears before the Xemnas fight is never called the DTD nor does it even resemble the DTD from KH1. It is only said to lead to KH, not the Realm of Darkness where KH lies, which in context of the scene would most likely refer to the moon in the sky. So yeah... the true DTD did only appear in one place.

Fine, it isn't the DTD. But to say that the DTD can only be opened in that one place, by that one method, is still taking a shot in the dark.

The KH made from the Hearts of Men is obviously right above the Headquarters of ORG. XIII its obviously only a dozen yards away if you watch the scene carefully.

Guess what's also a few dozen yards away? That's right, the Realm of Darkness, where KH is standing in, like the game says.

Since The World That Never Was is not actually in the Realm of Darkness and since we never witness Xemnas summoning KH to TWTNW it seems pretty certain that the KH of Men exists in TWTNW.

We see that Xemnas was in TWTNW when he was fusing with KH, and we know that he didn't go to the Realm of Darkness...so yeah, he made KH come to him.

Which took them a little over a year to do

Which they've been working on since BBS...

Besides, you once again miss the context of my point which is that the KH of Worlds that resides in the Realm of Darkness can not be reached from the Realm of Light or World In-Between without the DTD.

Again, what point? Xemnas didn't go to the Realm of Darkness anyways in order to get KH to fuse with him.

No, you just don't pay attention...

No, you're just a liar when you said "Nomura said KH isn't in the Realm of Darkness."

My whole argument you've been ignoring is that TWTNW is a separate world that is not part of the Realm of Darkness so how can anyone in TWTNW affect thing in the Realm of Darkness. Its like looking across the border and saying you can affect what goes on over their with the power of your mind.

It seems you're the one that's not paying attention. He can affect things that aren't in the same realm as him. After all, he was in TWTNW (Realm of In-Between) the entire time whenever he re-directed a heart of a Heartless killied by Roxas or Sora in the Realm of Light. Hell, even Maleficent managed to drag Sora into the Realm of Darkness after she herself Dark Corridor'd away to the Realm of Darkness. If Xemnas can re-direct hearts in the Realm of Light while he's in TWNTW, who the hell says he can't affect hearts when they go into the Realm of Darkness, which is also a separate realm from what he's in.

Seriously, at this point, I can tell that you have no idea what you're talking about.

which means I'm not lying.

The part you lied about was "Nomura said that KH is not in the Realm of Darkness."

We'll start talking when you start backing up your claims. Once again no, refernce of summoning or anything, he ask his KH to give him power and disappears into his KH.

His KH of men was ruined by Ansem's machine. So what other KH did he absorb? The non-ruined one, the KH of worlds, that's in the Realm of Darkness. But since he didn't actually go to the Realm of Darkness, and since he and Sora's gang were in TWTNW the whole time, yeah.

Way to answer without reading my post. My point is that they never go to the Realm of Darkness,

This is the only part where you're right.

the KH they visit is exclusively in TWTNW and is separate from the KH of KH1 which is located in the Realm of Darkness.

But it isn't. Even Saix said that the hearts that Org13 collected were gathering in darkness, and then said that those hearts combine together to form the KH of men.

Until you start backing up your claims, its obvious that Xemnas never came in contact with the KH of the Realm of Darkness.

How ironic, considering you're the one going "Look! KH is so close to TWNTW, it must be in TWTNW!" Even though the game says that both KH's are in the Realm of Darkness.

Seriously, you could also see Destiny Islands from Traverse Town and Yen Sid's tower is a train ride away from Twilight Town, but they're all still separate from each other.

Yeah it is, you could spit on it since its on top of the castle, which is in an In-Between World, which is not located in the Realm of Darkness, which is where the Heart of Worlds version of KH exists. Which Xemnas never summons to him with the KH of Men that you say isn't right in front of him since Xemnas is in an In-Between World and never visited the World of Darkness...

The only part of this entire mess that's right is that TWNTW isn't in the Realm of Darkness. We know that the KH of worlds is in the Realm of Darkness, and Saix also said that Xemnas was weaving together the hearts that they collected, that happen to be in the Realm of Darkness.

And the KH of Men is right in front of him...sitting in the Realm of Darkness, which TWTNW is extremely close to.

Which XH thought was all the power since he didn't believe in the light and he knows the hearts are power. They both wanted the same thing. The Director's Report even confirms this.

You were wrong about "what Nomura said" so I want to see the actual part that you're reading.

Um no... he absorbed the remains of his broken KH he never said anything about absorbing the KH of Worlds nor do we even see this happen. The whole scene pretty much points to him absorbing his own KH of Men.

Remains? He used the words "I'll have to start [collecting hearts] all over again." If that doesn't say "totally destroyed..."

He's sitting their pleading with his KH talking about how he'll rebuild it.

Refer to: "because it was totally destroyed."

He never mentions going to the Heart of Worlds and absorbing it. You are just misinterpreting the whole scene.

He never directly says "I'm absorbing the KH of men" either, in this case. Seriously, the whole "it is never said" stuff that you're doing is totally weak.

When your party defeats Xemnas in his own KH, he talks about how he needs more hearts

...because he needed hearts for his KH of men, that was destroyed.

I would think that if he absorbed two KH, he wouldn't need more hearts (he probably should have won if he was that powered up).

He didn't absorb both KHs. One was destroyed by Ansem, so there was only one left by process of elimination.

Yes, they can use the Corridors of Darkness, but you are saying Xemnas can manipulate KH from outside of the Realm of Darkness where you say both KH lie.

He was able to manipulate the Hearts that Roxas and Sora gathered from the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW, outside the Realm of Light. What exactly is the problem?

This goes against the metaphysics of the KH universe cause the Barriers exist to prevent worlds from interfering with each other or contacting outside of it.

Dark Corridors > World barriers

The metaphysics of KH also say that Dark Corridors can give World Barriers the middle finger.

The World That Never Was, has a barrier and it was only accessible by way of COD. Once again you are saying Xemnas can manipulate objects outside his realm of influence despite a barrier existing to prevent this kind of stuff from happening.

Yeah, because we know that he was able to manipulate hearts in the Realm of Light while he was in TWTNW the entire time, and we saw him do so. Once again, Dark Corridors say "**** you" to the barriers.