Will Final Fantasy XV's Cid be a Lady?

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

Main character != NPCs

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The talk was about characters that were also in your team.

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Still not the "main" character though.

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

Citation Needed :monster:

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I don't know about you but in my country Final Fantasy is not for smaller kids and being in multiple forums the amount of young adults has been way greater than that of, I don't know, people in their 40s. I could even take a younger age than 40 but I am afraid to insult someone with that, which I do not want.

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And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15 (which seems to be a common age for fantasy RPG characters), for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

This reminds me a little of that thing we did about "What FF could learn from GoT" - we should have added in "older women are cool". But hey, at least they listened to one thing we added on that list.

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I don't know how old you think Daenerys is but... :erm:

There are four female point of view characters in AGoT. Three of them are fourteen or under. Just sayin'.

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I was referring to the TV series, where we have a number of very cool older ladies. My point stands. And I don't think Dany is notably cool, so yeah. I think almost all the older females are cooler than almost all the younger ones in GoT and also think the eldest of them all (I think) is the coolest.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

As for the old guys, just use the Fifteen skin on this site and examine the guy to the left of Stella, the guy to the right of Noctis and the guy to the right of Assassin's Creed Assassin Man. I believe it is those characters that ToriJ was referring too, showing that SQEX are more than capable of designing older characters that are integral to the story.

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Yup.

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Oh, I know older males are in there, and I know older females have been in FF before too, although probably not in notable roles (unless they appear young like in VIII with the sorcerers, or Fran).

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15, for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

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The age you have mentioned covers young adults. You take "young adults" as "teenager" which I never defined as in the first place. It only begins with teenagers. And yes, 30 is also young considering how old a human being can get. And yes, also those people were perfectly fine with the age of the characters. People should not think just because 10/1000 want something different that it is a problem.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15, for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

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The age you have mentioned covers young adults. You take "young adults" as "teenager" which I never defined as in the first place. It only begins with teenagers.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that.

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?

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Originally Posted by Fox_

The weirdest age related thing in Final Fantasy was Quistis, I felt. Usually you get away with the fact that everyone's like, 19 by simply not talking about it. But Quistis? "I became a SeeD when I was 15, and then an instructor when I was 17. That was one year ago."

How can you be an instructor at that age? Is she even old enough to be drinking the champagne at that party?

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I'm not getting into the rest of this argument because I don't care to really, but Quistis has always been an interesting character to me. The fact that she was made an instructor at such a young age is absolutely ridiculous, but she never really comes off as a particularly good instructor either. I've always thought that she always seemed a bit immature, and she acted like a teenager for much of the time I felt. Balamb Garden is kind of poorly run in general. The initial purpose of building the school was shakily vague at best, and it eventually just seemed to become a school where they were simply training kids from a very young age to become highly trained mercenaries by 18ish. Cid doesn't seem to really be running things well in the glimpses we see of the school. Honestly, the garden faculty and NORG all seem to have more control at the end of the day.

Interestingly, we never see any other teachers either that I can think of. I wonder if all the teachers in that school are young like Quistis, or if maybe Cid had the stupid idea of thinking "well, maybe the kids will be able to relate better to an instructor that is the same age as them." The whole of the VIII world and the Garden concept is really weird when you think about it.

But I digress, that has little to do with the arguments being made in this thread, and has literally nothing to do with XV.

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

And from contextual evidence I could tell you that most of the people I know from FF forums are in their mid-late twenties/early thirties and a large number of people I play Final Fantasy XIV with are in the latter half of their thirties. I wouldn't use such limited evidence to make a sweeping generalization on the internet though, especially when the consumer research suggests the average age of video game consumers is someone in their 30s these days.

Irregardless, if the consumers are aged in their 20s or 30s or 40s... someone aged 15, for example, is not exactly a young adult. By all accounts in most countries someone of that age would be classed as a child still.

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The age you have mentioned covers young adults. You take "young adults" as "teenager" which I never defined as in the first place. It only begins with teenagers.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that.

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Ah, you took those two together. They were two different examples. I did not mean that the main consumer age of Pokémon is equal to Final Fantasy. My bad. Pokémon begins earlier. I thought that was obvious.

who calls a thirty-year-old a young adult, seriously

A 30 year old is for sure no old adult. Do you want to call it "mid-adult"? Also, my term was just there to stand for something. I could take it away and still mean exactly the same. And as said, Final Fantasy has plenty of "younger adults" that the player can use to project their own wishes in. You will not see a 60 year old player ranting that they have not 100 60 year old characters to play that stand for them.

Well, considering "young adult" is commonly understood to describe fiction aimed at ages 14 to 21, it's a pretty idiosyncratic use of the term to use it to describe a thirty-year-old.

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Originally Posted by The Man

who calls a thirty-year-old a young adult, seriously

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30 is the new 15.

It does not matter at all which word I use for a certain age if I explain what is meant. And with many teenagers and the few years after teen-age, up to late 20s or early 30s or whatever I have certainly no problem to call them "young". This is not supposed to be a discussion about "I am 30. Does that make me old?"

If I take a 20 year old main character I know I cover many players. If I take one in his/her late 20s or also in their 30s we also have many players. Their might be some guys who want an even older character but that is obviously not the main audience. I also want a non-human character and also not humanoid. That does not mean that everyone wants a Mog or Nanaki just as I do.

Huh, so FFXV's Cid is going to be a woman. Interesting change of trend. I wonder how plot-relevant she's going to be. Probably a person closely connected to the main characters either stationed in a fixed settlement or traveling to new plot-relevant locations every now and then. Would be neat if she were a guest party member at some point. Maybe the car was made by her? Maybe she can upgrade your weapons or provide you with new tools? That'd be neat.

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

I'm guessing she'll have something to do with the car. Because mechanic

As mentioned, she is mainly there for the adventure of the player but not the main plot. There was an interview with Hajime Tabata. That does not mean that she has no relevance at all, of course. Maybe there is a time when we must meet her at least once.

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It does not matter at all which word I use for a certain age if I explain what is meant.

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But you didn't explain what you meant initially. It was only after you had confused multiple people that you clarified what you meant.

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And with many teenagers and the few years after teen-age, up to late 20s or early 30s or whatever I have certainly no problem to call them "young".

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The phrase "young adult" has an established meaning in common usage. You can't just disregard it because you don't like it and expect people not to comment.

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A 30 year old is for sure no old adult. Do you want to call it "mid-adult"?

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That sounds stupid. "Twentysomething" or "thirtysomething" is fine.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

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It's easy not to care when things don't affect you.

Yes, it is perfectly fine to redefine something that has another meaning already. I use a word, give it a meaning and officially explain it and it does not affect the global definition. I just need to get sure no one confuses one thing with the other. Which I have made clear now. Actually there are even definitions out there which are extremely unclear or definitions that get a new meaning all the time like in Computer Science where you define stuff. It has also fixed defined stuff but even that could technically be redefined safely by pointing out that you mean xy.

Is it helpful? Probably not always when someone is confused but if someone gets what I mean then the purpose is fulfilled. People just need to be aware of that it might be something else which I will explain without problem in case someone is confused. I do not say that other meaning that is normally used by others is wrong.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

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It's easy not to care when things don't affect you.

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Indeed it is.

I will start caring when the game does, though.

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

As mentioned, she is mainly there for the adventure of the player but not the main plot. There was an interview with Hajime Tabata. That does not mean that she has no relevance at all, of course. Maybe there is a time when we must meet her at least once.

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Sounds like she'll be mainly gameplay-relevant for most of the game. Maybe something like O'Aka's role from FFX as the one who provides you with supplies from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

Huh, so FFXV's Cid is going to be a woman. Interesting change of trend. I wonder how plot-relevant she's going to be. Probably a person closely connected to the main characters either stationed in a fixed settlement or traveling to new plot-relevant locations every now and then. Would be neat if she were a guest party member at some point. Maybe the car was made by her? Maybe she can upgrade your weapons or provide you with new tools? That'd be neat.

Hmm, did I miss something? Oh, her appearance. Well whatever, I don't really care.

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I cannot remember which info dump/interview I read this in, but Tabata said the car would be customizable in FFXV, I think Cidney will have something to do with customization and tunes ups. It would make sense especially if the characters need to sleep to gain better advantage in battle, maybe the car will break down and need to be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I appreciate that you can acknowledge the outfit is stupid, but to say that's okay with you because you "don't mind" shows me that you are choosing to ignore all the negative impacts this kind of gender inequality and over sexualization of females has on society.

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This is not the case, I just don't think that Final Fantasy is the trigger for that kind of thing, nor do I think that having a sexualised character is a bad thing.

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Having a sexualized character isn't a bad thing. Having the first female Cid be so vastly different from previous Cids in a clearly sexist way is a bad thing, especially if you take a moment to acknowledge that women are sexualized far, far more often than men already. I know you've said repeatedly that "she's fictional" and you believe "Final Fantasy is better than most," as justification for ignoring the disparity between how males and females are treated by media, but that doesn't mean the negative consequences we all deal with go away just because you don't care.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Firstly, I consider someone attractive if I consider them attractive, not if they meet certain criteria.

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First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society, and then you're unable to judge attractiveness by any criteria but your own. Knowing you as long as I have, I'm having a hard time believing you're honestly so unable to step outside of your own perspective. I think you're being stubborn.

If I were to re-do the tally, with the corrections Psy pointed out, I would put Hope and probably Gau as "attractive males" and Realm as an "unattractive female." Hell, let's put Kimahri as an attractive male too, since he has pecs. That would make the male characters 30% unattractive and 14% for the females. So the males are only a little more than twice as likely to be permitted to be unattractive. "Unattractive" people would be the elderly, the non-fit, children under 14, and non-humanoid (Red and Cait Sith). I think it's notable that females are always young and humanoid.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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I definitely disagree with you on the first two though. Especially the second one. For your second point you are being very daft.

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See chionos' post. :shobon: Same for the next paragraph you put in, about how there is only one guy who is sexualised because he has an open shirt. I would love to hear from a large group of people who consider themselves to be bisexual to describe what outfits they consider sexy on a guy and then on a girl. I suspect they will not markedly different - in my experience, this is the case, anyway. Girls are generally seen as having a sexy appearance if they are fit and dress skimpy. Guys, if they go around wearing nothing but underwear and showing off their full body, don't tend to get the same treatment. Again, I asked Danielle what she considered sexy on a guy - the "most sexualised" a guy could be for her - and she said showing chest and/or abs (but with a shirt or jacket of some kind) and with some jeans or something on. Bikini top? Hot pants? "No." xD The problem is that the clothes guys are considered to be at their sexiest in tend to be normal clothes. Suits. T-shirt and jeans. Stuff like that. Girls, on the other hand, are seen as sexy in these things, but also seen as sexy in a bikini, or seen as sexy in a low cut top, or seen as sexy in a skirt, thigh high boots, turtlenecks even. A nice dress. Effectively girls tend to be seen as sexy - appearance-wise, obviously - in a much wider variety of clothing, and in some cases it is considered extremely sexy, while guys don't get that kind of thing. That's possibly unfair, but it's just the way people are in a large number of cultures, certainly the ones we live in, in the current world.

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First, you're ignoring the socialization that comes with the difference between what men and women find sexy. Second, you're way off base about what women find sexy. Third, you're ignoring the difference between "sexy" and "sexualized." Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it? Or is this just back to confusing "sexy" with "sexualized" because you have some notion that a woman in a bikini humping a car hood is equal to a man in a suit standing in a place...?

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

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Originally Posted by Shlup

My nipples have seen sunshine in the Happiest Place on Earth many times.

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Why? Like, I'm not judging you on a moral standpoint, I just... what is the context of this? "Hey Mickey, I've got a surprise for you!"?

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Breastfeeding.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

...and I still think it's not very high on most girl's lists (either that or they simply don't want to admit it ;)).

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Or we're socialized against oogling and hooting. We like crotch bulges, but we are supposed to be the pretty, submissive, sexualized group, not men.

And, yes, I realize that sounds like I'm being an "omg feminist," but I really need you to consider here just how little you, as you said yourself, know about socialization of the genders. I'm not going to pull the "I read books" card here because it would be rude of me to expect you to just take my word for it... I also don't want to cite entire books as my sources. I have a plan! Every time I come across a relevant article, I will forward it to you. Win-win.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

SO STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

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You've already been told you're being unreasonable here, but I'll just reiterate: I can like something without liking everything about it. If I were to tell you my husband frequently puts dirty dishes back in the cupboard would you say "SO DIVORCE HIM FOR CHRIST'S SAKE"?

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Also the main consumers of Final Fantasy are young adults. You also don't make the Pokémon main character over 20 just because some people might want that. If the looks of older characters would interest more people there would be more Dysleys, Tellas or FuSoYas, but cool, good-looking and strong fantasy-anime characters that they want to be like and are interested in are the main aspect.

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Except that they do make Final Fantasy characters over 22, just not females.

And, just for posterity, here's some linkspam that supports my stance:

http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexu...tification.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10....199-006-9147-3
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5708921.html
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21105504405683
http://pwq.sagepub.com/content/38/3/398.abstract
https://news.wsu.edu/2014/05/27/stud...s/#.VJoFM_8B_d
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/...fied-by-women/
http://www.alternet.org/story/146396...ou_might_think

For those who think that men and women are equally sexualized, or that the gap between the genders and sexualization isn't all that wide, or that it's not a big deal, or that Cidney should get a pass because... whatever reason: [citation needed]

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

I know the topic has changed already, but I just wanted to jump in and give a huge sigh of relief, because I always felt like I was in the minority around here with regards to JRPGs and anime, and their ridiculous age structures where they have such a romantic view of high school, they think all their best characters have to be high school aged, even in settings where school and age are pretty irrelevant, and even (more ridiculous) where age and school completely contradict logic in their social and career position. I honestly can NOT play certain games where this is a huge factor, it grates me so badly, and trying to relate to someone who is not only half my age, but also supposedly twice as advanced both intellectually and in their field of study is just absolutely ridiculous, and I cannot seem to suspend my disbelief enough to swallow that or enjoy it

Most recently had this issue with Tales of Xillia, where one of the main character is supposed to be a DOCTOR who is FIFTEEN. My girlfriend and I both agreed to completely ignore his official age, and just consider him something more reasonable. Like ... 20. Possibly a really sheltered 20 to account for his emotionally immature demeanor

But yes, these things have been rampant in FF, and I am honestly surprised to find that aside from Fran, Lulu was the next oldest at 22. I had never realized that, and find it completely ridiculous. Especially considering they're happy to have older guys here and there. But like BoB pointed out, even then their ideas on their ages are still far from reasonable. I too consider Cid from VII to be like 45

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Yes, it is perfectly fine to redefine something that has another meaning already. I use a word, give it a meaning and officially explain it and it does not affect the global definition.

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The thing you seem to be refusing to acknowledge is that you are being criticised because you didn't explain it. If you had explained what you meant up front, there would have been no problem.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

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Uh.

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Originally Posted by Fox_

Discussion on the subject is the solution.

- Publisher does something stupid
- Gets bad press
- Thinks twice before doing it next time.

And, you know, talking about character depictions on video game forums? Surprisingly useful in itself. Because where do the next generation of game developers spend their internet time in their youth? Right here.

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Media sources sometimes pick it up, and it becomes a thing. Sometimes even a phenomenon. Sometimes it forces change.

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I would seriously want to see a game with male characters in it designed by aggressively enthusiastic yaoi fangirls. I would kill to see how the internet would react.

Her outfit is silly. Not prohibitively silly, but it out of place in an otherwise serious and realism-oriented game. She's a mechanic and she has no practical reason to dress like that. Now if Noctis and his crew were a bunch of guyliner'd guys in black bikinis and short blazers there might be room for an argument that it's fair game but they aren't. A character can be attractive, sexy even, without having their agency or ability to be taken seriously away. While Cidney is not a failure of a character just by her design, it creates an impression of the character and her role that the game will have to make an effort to dispel. If she turns out to be the best character ever then that's all well in good but my argument is that she should be able to exist as a sexual and/or dynamic character based on how she's written and framed rather than presenting her in such a way.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society

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If you would be so kind as to stop repeatedly putting words in my mouth, I'd be really grateful. Do I think sexualising is okay? Yes. Do I think gender disparities are okay? Depends on the gender disparity in question. If I like the taste of Cheddar that doesn't mean I like the taste of all cheeses. Do I think the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters, in general throughout all media, negatively impacts society? Yes.

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Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it?

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Both. These things are not mutually exclusive. Men are sexualised, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise. But men and women ARE treated differently, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise regarding that, too.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I'm responding to the volume of text people are devoting to this subject. You don't have to have caps lock on to seem like you're shouting.

Everybody's whining about this or that but no one's suggesting any action and that bothers me.

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Here are a few actions you can take, with varying degrees of effort:
1) Reflect on these issues and how they may affect your feelings and behavior. Try to do better.
2) Talk about these issues in hopes of making someone aware of them who previously wasn't.
3) Talk about these issues so that others realize they're not alone. Silence doesn't change anything.
4) Write a letter to Square Enix expressing your disappointment that they would choose to turn an iconic character into fan service.
5) Write a letter to Square Enix, and let them know you won't be buying the game because of it.
6) Write an article, a blog post, or make a video about the issue for the above reasons.
7) Start a petition to let Square Enix know others are also disappointed by their choice.

Is that acceptable for you? That's all I could think of off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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Originally Posted by Shlup

First you don't care about how the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society

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If you would be so kind as to stop repeatedly putting words in my mouth, I'd be really grateful. Do I think sexualising is okay? Yes. Do I think gender disparities are okay? Depends on the gender disparity in question. If I like the taste of Cheddar that doesn't mean I like the taste of all cheeses. Do I think the gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters, in general throughout all media, negatively impacts society? Yes.

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Fourth, you keep going back and forth between "men are sexualized too" and "the media obviously treats men and women differently." Which is it?

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Both. These things are not mutually exclusive. Men are sexualised, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise. But men and women ARE treated differently, and I think it's ignorant to think otherwise regarding that, too.

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I wanted to highlight those two statements before reminding you that you've said each of the following:

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I don't "appreciate" cheap pandering, but I "accept and quite frankly don't care about" cheap pandering provided it's a fictional character and it is done to each gender.

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Is it okay to have sexy characters in a video game? Even if it's just for the sake of making them sexy? Sure, I don't see why not. Guy or girl. Just don't care, really.

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I don't care if an outfit is sexualised and/or stupid.

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In the end, I just think that it's not a problem to sexualise fictional people.

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It could be a culture issue, it could be a social issue, but as for myself, I don't mind fictional characters being shown to be sexy because they are in a fantasy world where bullets, swords and toxic chemicals used by car mechanics are all things that do not harm one so easily.

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I just don't see a problem with sexualising in general so long as it's being done in a fictional world, and it's being done to both genders.

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You acknowledge that "men and women ARE treated differently," you acknowledge that "gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society" but tell me I'm putting words in your mouth after you've said repeatedly that you don't care, as long as they're fictional and it's happening to both genders. The genders are not treated equally, it negatively impacts society, but you "don't see a problem."

Maybe you could just clarify what it is that you don't care about then.

I would also appreciate you giving me a handful examples of sexualized male characters. We can limit it to Final Fantasy since you've declared the series "fair and equal."

Keep in mind these objective facts: The oldest [human] female character is Lulu at 22 and oldest male is Strago at 70. At least 23FFIV Cid (54), Yang (35), Tellah (60), Edward (24), Fusoya (?), Edge (26), Galuf (60), Locke (25), Edgar (27), Sabin (27), Cyan (50), Strago (70), Setzer (27), Barrett (35), Vincent (27), Steiner (33), Amarant (26), Auron (35), Wakka (23), Basch (36), Sazh (40) playable male characters are older than 22-year-old Lulu; not counting temporarily playable characters over 22 (Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Seymour), characters of unknown age other than obviously elderly Fusoya (Shadow and Gogo), and non-humans 25-year-old Kimahri and 46-year-old Red.

There are no non-humanoid female characters.

This isn't completely objective, but I think I was very fair in saying male characters are more than twice as likely to be allowed to be unattractive as female characters (also, I thought Gau was 14, but he's 13 so I'm amending my "attractive" to 13+ for the sake of erring on your side).

To my knowledge, no male characters pose in a way designed specifically to expose their secondary sex charactersticshttp://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ctory_Pose.png.

Before you delve into your many examples of sexualized males, I want to point out that I feel like a major issue here may be people thinking "sexy" and "sexualized" are synonyms. They're not. Leonardo DiCaprio is always sexy no matter what he's doing or wearing. A sexy person/character is "sexually interesting or exciting," or desirable.

According to the American Psychological Association, a person is sexualized when:
-a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;
-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;
-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or
-sexuality (def: expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive ) is inappropriately imposed upon a person.

So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.

Also, just for posterity and because I hate for anyone to think I just talk out of my ass, here are some choice quotes from a few highly regarded studies, primarily the APA's report:
"Games were significantly more likely to depict female characters partially nude or engaged in sexual behaviors than to depict male characters in this way.

"Dill, Gentile, Richter, and Dill (2005) found that in the 20 top-selling games in 1999, only female characters were portrayed as highly sexualized."

My primary source for these is the Wiki entry on sexualization. I know there's always someone who goes "Pfft, Wikipedia," but each statement has a citation, so you're welcome to skip the wiki and read each of the citations if you prefer.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

You acknowledge that "men and women ARE treated differently," you acknowledge that "gender disparities between the treatment of fictional characters negatively impacts society" but tell me I'm putting words in your mouth after you've said repeatedly that you don't care, as long as they're fictional and it's happening to both genders. The genders are not treated equally, it negatively impacts society, but you "don't see a problem."

Maybe you could just clarify what it is that you don't care about then.

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When, in a specific game and/or series, I feel the genders are sexualised and/or not sexualised to a reasonably equal degree (gender-wise), no, I don't care. If, such as in a game like Dead or Alive, we see it blatantly one-sided, I think it's bad. Doesn't mean I'm going to lose my trout, but I feel these games go too far. They're entitled to make these games and like yourself, I'm entitled to not buy them, but hey, whatever. Still, I can see the appeal of these games to people who are seeking titilation without the use of outright porn. I won't kick up a stink about it, but I'm happy to state my opinion on any particular game and/or series if I have one and feel like putting it out there. FF just happens to be a series close to my heart and if I feel people are overreacting, I'm just as happy - if not even happier, due to the series being something I'm fond of - to express my opinion on it.

I'll also note that when I feel they go too far, I still express an opinion against Final Fantasy - such as in the case of Fran, which I personally felt was ridiculous. But some people - interestingly often female - like that, so I wasn't going to make a huge fuss.

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I would also appreciate you giving me a handful examples of sexualized male characters. We can limit it to Final Fantasy since you've declared the series "fair and equal."

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Gladiolus. Tidus. Barret. Snow. Gadolt. Kuja (although personally I imagine that the majority of girls are more likely to find other characters sexier than Kuja, like Basch, because girls tend to prefer the feather to the whole damned chicken, which I personally agree with but hey, if you like the codpiece, power to you).

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Keep in mind these objective facts: The oldest [human] female character is Lulu at 22 and oldest male is Strago at 70. At least 23FFIV Cid (54), Yang (35), Tellah (60), Edward (24), Fusoya (?), Edge (26), Galuf (60), Locke (25), Edgar (27), Sabin (27), Cyan (50), Strago (70), Setzer (27), Barrett (35), Vincent (27), Steiner (33), Amarant (26), Auron (35), Wakka (23), Basch (36), Sazh (40) playable male characters are older than 22-year-old Lulu; not counting temporarily playable characters over 22 (Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Seymour), characters of unknown age other than obviously elderly Fusoya (Shadow and Gogo), and non-humans 25-year-old Kimahri and 46-year-old Red.

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I've acknowledged already that the age thing is something they can work on.

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There are no non-humanoid female characters.

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Freya. Unless you mean non-humanoid in a more loose term, in which case there's probably only been one non-humanoid ever, Red XIII. All the rest have two arms, two legs, a vertical torso, a neck, a head, etc.

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To my knowledge, no male characters pose in a way designed specifically to expose their secondary sex charactersticshttp://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ctory_Pose.png.

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It's a bit unfair as males don't have boobs or any kind of "secondary sex characteristics" I can think of according to society. We've just got the genitalia, which to my knowledge isn't exaggerated in either gender beyond that seen in Kuja.

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Before you delve into your many examples of sexualized males

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BUT I ALREADY DID THIS :stare: Dangit, Shlup! Let me reply to your post as I read it more often! xD

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I want to point out that I feel like a major issue here may be people thinking "sexy" and "sexualized" are synonyms. They're not. Leonardo DiCaprio is always sexy no matter what he's doing or wearing. A sexy person/character is "sexually interesting or exciting," or desirable.

According to the American Psychological Association, a person is sexualized when:
-a person’s value comes only from his or her sexual appeal or sexual behavior, to the exclusion of other characteristics;

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In this case, 90% of the claims for both sides can probably be thrown out. Damned near everyone has value beyond physical appearance in the Final Fantasy series. And we haven't even seen FFXV yet but I'm pretty confident that Cindy (wish they kept it as Cidney) will have more relevance than her sexual appeal.

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-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;

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I don't quite understand this bit. >_<;
[quote]-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or[/quote
See two bits up - I'm pretty confident that Cindy is not going to be a whore and I'm pretty sure most FF characters, if not all of them, can have the same said about them. Perhaps a few exceptions such as dancers in FFV and people you encounter within honeybee inn.

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-sexuality (def: expression of sexual receptivity or interest especially when excessive ) is inappropriately imposed upon a person.

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...Aeris? >_>; But kidding aside, again, I don't think we can say much of this for anyone. Has sex ever actually been a thing in FF? Personally speaking, I think sexualised should include "being dressed inappropriately for ones role for the sake of gaining sexual appeal via physical attraction." If one of the above was meant to equate to that, it goes back to "is it sexy, is it relevant for what they do" and we're back to what we've been discussing earlier.

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So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.

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I'm troubled here because every single guy I can think of that is supposed to be sexually attractive appears to be muscular (and therefore powerful) because that is what is deemed to be sexy according to most females. So I could tell you Gladiolus, and you could say "No, he's strong, that's a power thing." And I don't know where to go from there because it's down to how you personally want to interpret it. The guy legitimately looks like a male model, to me at least.

Really, I think before we can go much further, you need to send me examples of sexualised males (...probably better to do so via PM or something) so I can get a better understanding of your interpretation of what they should look like. I've grown up being told (by females) that male wrestlers in tiny pants was not something they found attractive, but I'm getting the impression that this is what you mean by sexualised, because I'm unsure what else it could be.

So now that her name is actually Cindy, what are we going to do if/when the real Cid pops up? I've obviously been on the side that her outfit is a little too purposefully sexual for no good/justifiable reason. But the people saying "They changed Cid's gender and immediately sexualized it" will have lost a little momentum

Is this going to be more forgivable if it turns out to not be an incarnation of Cid? I obviously threw my hands up when it was pointed out her outfit was designed by a fashion designer and not just a perverted character artist locked up and deprived(/depraved) at Square HQ, but I think it leaves a little more wiggle-room for the possibility of context

She legitimately could end up being Cid's daughter or niece. Which would mean he's the real deal, and she's probably just some up-start prodigy mechanic who might not have been wearing that while working on stuff. She may have just gotten done taking off her coveralls, or she may have been standing on the sideline helping her uncle/dad and just got some stuff on her face. I still don't completely approve of her outfit as a standard for FF characters, but the situation has at the very least opened up for more reasonable context possibilities. And if any of that turns out to be the case, I'll likely be a lot more lenient on her

But in the end I'd probably swallow it anyway, my biggest problem is not so much that it exists, but that it exists in contrast with everything else. I already said she looks like someone out of Borderlands in that get-up and I don't hate Borderlands. But they established their own style. This game established its own style a long time ago. And then she shows up and just sorta throws things off in all kinds of wrong and weird directions

But the fact alone that they've made her name officially Cindy rather than Cidney gives me pause for thought. But yeah..

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Originally Posted by Vyk

Is this going to be more forgivable if it turns out to not be an incarnation of Cid?

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No.

I'm pretty confident that Cindy is the real Cid, given in FFXV she is named Cidney. I mean, you're right, it's possible she's a niece or something, but I find it unlikely. It would be pretty cool to have Cid have a family including Cindy, though, as I really do feel that Final Fantasy lacks "complete" families. It's always just a mum (Ma Dincht, Cloud's Mother, Elmyra) or just a dad (Barret, Sazh, Tifa's Dad). Even then, they're often adopted. Give us real families, dammit. We had Hope but then, well, yeah, that ended quickly.

Where was it ever said that "Shidonii", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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-a person is held to a standard that equates physical attractiveness (narrowly defined) with being sexy;

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I don't quite understand this bit. >_<;

Quote:

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-a person is sexually objectified—that is, made into a thing for others’ sexual use, rather than seen as a person with the capacity for independent action and decision making; and/or

---

See two bits up - I'm pretty confident that Cindy is not going to be a whore and I'm pretty sure most FF characters, if not all of them, can have the same said about them. Perhaps a few exceptions such as dancers in FFV and people you encounter within honeybee inn.

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No one is saying that anyone in Final Fantasy is a whore. You are jumping to astounding conclusions and implications of what Shlup is saying. I don't want to speak for her, but what it seems that she's saying is that there is an over-abundance of unnecessary sexualization of female characters in the series, not that everyone who shows off a little bit skin or cleavage is a whore. She literally used actual definitions of these words and somehow you snagged "whore" from them? How?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Quote:

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So, please, if you would give me some examples of male Final Fantasy characters who are sexualized, it would help us get on the same page. Also I want you to honestly ask yourself when you look at a male character's exposed skin whether you feel that skin is being exposed in order to be tantalizing to females/homos or whether it's meant to emphasize that they are physically powerful.

---

I'm troubled here because every single guy I can think of that is supposed to be sexually attractive appears to be muscular (and therefore powerful) because that is what is deemed to be sexy according to most females. So I could tell you Gladiolus, and you could say "No, he's strong, that's a power thing." And I don't know where to go from there because it's down to how you personally want to interpret it. The guy legitimately looks like a male model, to me at least.

Really, I think before we can go much further, you need to send me examples of sexualised males (...probably better to do so via PM or something) so I can get a better understanding of your interpretation of what they should look like. I've grown up being told (by females) that male wrestlers in tiny pants was not something they found attractive, but I'm getting the impression that this is what you mean by sexualised, because I'm unsure what else it could be.

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The problem here is that you are confusing physical attraction with sexualization. A character having muscles is not sexualization, those are simply characteristics. Someone feeling attracted to another person =/= that person is a sexualized individual. It is a fact that females in this series are outrageously sexualized in showing off cleavage, breasts, and revealing much of their bodies. I don't see how you can draw a line from "women in thongs, bras, midriffs, short skirts and short shorts and other revealing outfits showing off sexual parts of their bodies is sexualization of the gender" to "girls liking muscles makes men sexualized". The two don't match up at all.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/streams/...ktop_large.jpg

Please explain to me how Gladiolus is a sexualized character. How exactly are parts of his body being shown off in order for women (and others) to objectify him? His shirt being open, okay, I'll give you that. Even so, such a thing doesn't imply sex appeal for all women and it still doesn't make him a sexualized character. Even with an example of his open shirt, he is a single male out of how many other males and how many other games where the males are not sexualized.

Saying that this problem plagues both sexes is not accurate; a single instance of it happening within the realm of male characters does not make it a problem for the male characters; it makes it a happenstance occurrence. The problem flat out lies with female characters and that is that.

I didn't say Shlup said anyone was a whore, I was just going through the bullet list of what makes something sexualised and referencing it to Final Fantasy. Don't read too much into that bit.

Anyway, like I said, I'm genuinely going to need to see examples of what you think are sexualised men so I can get what you're referring to as what you think a sexualised male is, and what you think a sexualised female is. I mean, I know what I think they are, but you seem to be in disagreement. I dare say this is ironic that a guy like me could feel that a guy is being sexualised and girls are telling me "Nah he's not sexualised you're just wrong." Pretty sure I'm capable of saying when I feel a man is being used as a sex object. If I were a younger guy with more self confidence issues, I would be looking at the men women fawn over and he would be one of them and I would be going ":( I'm nothing like that, and never will be anything like that. I'm inferior." which is basically what Shlup is worrying about her daughter over. I get the feeling that people think guys are immune to such things, and I tell you, I was not when I was a kid. So if you're going to say that he is not being sexualised then I'm genuinely baffled.

What I'm getting out of Square Enix's characters is that they want physically attractive characters. For a lot of guys, like it or not, girls looking like Cindy are seen as highly physically attractive. For a lot of girls, whether I like it or not, guys looking like Gladiolus are seen as highly physically attractive. If you don't think he's being sexualised, I don't know what to say beyond "I think he's about as sexualised as Cindy is, it's just that sexualised girls are far bloody sexier than sexualised men are by default, in my personal opinion."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Where was it ever said that "Shidoni", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?

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Her role as "a Cid" wasn't changed. Though I always thought it was just our presumption that she was meant to be "a Cid" to begin with. Has it been confirmed that she is in fact this series Cid? My whole comment was under the impression that we were merely assuming she was "a Cid" based on the similarity in her name and supposed ability as a mechanic, which is a typical Cid career. I wasn't aware it was confirmed. But even if it was, I was commenting on the idea that they had translated her name to Cindy, rather than Cidney. Which would mean "Cid" is not even in her name, which would give credence to the idea that she may not in fact be this game's Cid. And we may have presumed wrong in this thread. People were calling her "Cidney" and then assuming that meant she was Cid. I haven't really seen an official confirmation that she is indeed Cid. But I haven't been following things as closely as others

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyk

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Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Where was it ever said that "Shidoni", a character that is supposed to be "Cidney" and Hajime Tabata even mentioned as "she is called "Cid-ney"" to confirm her ciddish role was changed?

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Her role as "a Cid" wasn't changed. Though I always thought it was just our presumption that she was meant to be "a Cid" to begin with. Has it been confirmed that she is in fact this series Cid? My whole comment was under the impression that we were merely assuming she was "a Cid" based on the similarity in her name and supposed ability as a mechanic, which is a typical Cid career. I wasn't aware it was confirmed. But even if it was, I was commenting on the idea that they had translated her name to Cindy, rather than Cidney. Which would mean "Cid" is not even in her name, which would give credence to the idea that she may not in fact be this game's Cid. And we may have presumed wrong in this thread. People were calling her "Cidney" and then assuming that meant she was Cid. I haven't really seen an official confirmation that she is indeed Cid. But I haven't been following things as closely as others

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Shidonii and Shindi is not the same and her name is written and pronounced "Shidonii", so Cidney. I'd wonder about her being called Cindy in the West as Cidney was meant and you can conclude from the interview. Especially because Shidonii is a different name.

Shi-do-ni-i

If it is an assumption we've made, the rest of the internet has made the same assumption. Possible! But unlikely.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I didn't say Shlup said anyone was a whore, I was just going through the bullet list of what makes something sexualised and referencing it to Final Fantasy. Don't read too much into that bit.

Anyway, like I said, I'm genuinely going to need to see examples of what you think are sexualised men so I can get what you're referring to as what you think a sexualised male is, and what you think a sexualised female is. I mean, I know what I think they are, but you seem to be in disagreement. I dare say this is ironic that a guy like me could feel that a guy is being sexualised and girls are telling me "Nah he's not sexualised you're just wrong." Pretty sure I'm capable of saying when I feel a man is being used as a sex object. If I were a younger guy with more self confidence issues, I would be looking at the men women fawn over and he would be one of them and I would be going ":( I'm nothing like that, and never will be anything like that. I'm inferior." which is basically what Shlup is worrying about her daughter over. I get the feeling that people think guys are immune to such things, and I tell you, I was not when I was a kid. So if you're going to say that he is not being sexualised then I'm genuinely baffled.

What I'm getting out of Square Enix's characters is that they want physically attractive characters. For a lot of guys, like it or not, girls looking like Cindy are seen as highly physically attractive. For a lot of girls, whether I like it or not, guys looking like Gladiolus are seen as highly physically attractive. If you don't think he's being sexualised, I don't know what to say beyond "I think he's about as sexualised as Cindy is, it's just that sexualised girls are far bloody sexier than sexualised men are by default, in my personal opinion."

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It's not ironic. You are not a woman, yet you make statements saying what women find to be attractive and how they sexualize men in instances where they are clearly not sexualizing them. That is wrong, because you are making assumptions on behalf of women, especially when they don't apply. You have yet to provide a sufficient example of male characters that appear to be sexualized by women, so you are wrong there again. There's nothing ironic about it; you are not presenting correct facts. It is incredulous that you feel like any one of the men in these games is used as a sex objects, and even moreso that you are using this comparison to contrast the present sexism to the female characters. You don't need to see photos of men I or anyone else consider to be sexualized males; it doesn't apply here. It doesn't change the fact of whether the males in this series are sexualized or not.

Just because you personally feel like you won't measure up to certain characteristics does not mean those characteristics are sexualized. I don't know how you are drawing these conclusions.

And on Cindy; how is she physically attractive? Is it her mechanic garb? Is it the oversized trucker hat on her head or her boyish haircut? Is it the dirt on her face, which you mentioned earlier? Tell me what it is exactly that you find attractive about her.

http://www.thegamecavern.com/wp-cont...fxv_cidney.jpg

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouths, but I'm betting on the fact that it's her blatant open breasts and bra that lead that attraction. And because her character is in a sexualizing and revealing outfit showing off a sexual part of her body, it is safe for me to make that assumption.

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Host: (reading fan question) "Cidney-tan."

Tabata: I'm sorry, what am I supposed to answer there?
Host: Well, just who is she?
Tabata: Ah. Well, her name is "Cid"-ney, so that should give you an idea. But in terms of who she is to the player, well, she isn't integral to the story, rather she's integral to the player's adventure – she's a mechanic who supports your travels. What she works on, you can probably guess [from the trailer]
Host: That's who she is.

---

Source:

http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-xvs-...ail-1673513161


I do speak Japanese, by the way. Not that this would exclude a mistake but the director mentioning it and me understanding her name and seeing a picture where her name is written should be convincing. Shidonii has nothing to do with Cindy. Shi = Shi or Si, do = do or d, nii = n + long pronounced i = Cidney.

Hadn't even seen that pic 'til just now. :shobon:

What I'd seen is the bit in the trailer, and the pic of her and Gladiolus pictures at the start of this thread, and the screenshots of the trailer I just linked to. Honestly didn't even know there was more footage out!

As for what I find physically attractive regarding her: Hair, facial features, boobs, legs, general body shape. Clothes that highlight said features. What's not to like? And honestly? Yeah, dirt on the face. Hell yeah.

Personally, I can only hold my hands up at this point and say that you perceive sexualisation completely different to me and I disagree with your assessments. And I still have yet to be actually told what is a sexualised male, so what the hell can I do but go by what I am told by females? And as for saying what women find attractive: Hey, I'm going by what women have told me my entire life. It is legitimately news to me that you guys think something else is physically attractive than what I believe. Because wherever I go, girls talk about all these dudes and I'm going by what characteristics they have on display, and of course books based on studies (in case you're wondering, Shlup: Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps).

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boobs were showing.

If Square wants to establish attractive female characters, it can obviously be done without showing off women's bodies.

Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.

joe jonas being a turd absolutely NSFW
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...s_chin_mus.JPG

Even so, I don't see how what I consider to be sexualized males has anything to do with this conversation. It is a fact that males are not sexualized in this game, plain and simple.

A simple dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he happens to have big muscles. End of story. It doesn't matter if "not all guys look like that" or if they look like models; so do all of the women in the games. Differentiating body types aren't being debated here (though maybe they should be). We're talking about sexualization based on how women are presented in these games.

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shorty

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boob were showing.

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I'm not going to complain if they make hot lookin' ladies, no. Is it ever necessary to do this? No. But they do it. I'm okay with that. They make hot lookin' dudes, I'm cool with that too. Boobs on display does increase physical attraction. This is one of the most commonly known things in the history of humankind and I'm shocked if you think it's not true.

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Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.

absolutely NSFW
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...s_chin_mus.JPG

Otherwise, sorry, but a dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he has big muscles. End of story.

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Do you find that to be really physically attractive? If there were a character dressed like that, do you think he'd be really popular with the ladies? If so, throw him in, hell, I don't mind. But I've been told all my life that buff dudes (and that guy is muscular, don't kid yourself that Jonas has the physical condition of a regular bloke) in their underwear were not attractive. Especially when I watched WWF and WWE. So yeah, I've been coditioned by females to believe that this is not what women want.

Also, to go back to Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps, it generally backs up the theory that women just don't buy into this kind of thing like men do...

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Nude male centerfolds come and go as women's magazines try to persuade us that women's attitudes to nudity are now the same as men's. These centrefolds vanish just as quickly as they appear, but it has been shown that they increase overall readership by gay men.

All attempts at selling porn to women have failed although, during the late 1990s, there was an increase in the sale of semi-naked male pin-up calendars, which ended up sout-stripping the sales of female nude calendars. The buyers of nude male calendars have been shown to fall into three categories - teenage girls who want pictures of their favourite movie or rock star, women who want it as a humorous joke for one of their friends, and gay men.

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It just makes me feel like what lots of men find to be the peak of physical attraction (including but not limited to the showing of cleavage) is not the same as what women find to be the peak of physical attraction. I'm not saying that men can't find a covered up women attractive, we can. Nor am I saying that no women find near-nude dudes to be the peak of physical attraction, some obviously do. But I think Square Enix is going for the peak physical attraction for at least one of their characters in each of the games and I think for men and women that leads to very different results.

From what I've seen of the new video, I think it confirms further that she is sexualised but I also think that to assume that she is restricted to being a sex object and a sex object alone is on par with me saying the same for Gladiolus. I believe they've both been sexed up, I don't believe either will end up being nothing but sex objects.

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

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Tabata confirmed that it's Cidney and that she plays the Cid role... but if the translation team miss the memo it's possible it is still possible end up being Cindy in the English version.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Depression Moon

There hasn't been confirmation on the name Cindy or Cidney yet huh?
I'm thinking it's probably most likely Cidney, given that Cindy never shows up without her sisters, unless they are going way unexpected with the Magus Sisters this time.

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Cindy is not her (the Magus Sisters one) Japanese name. They are called Mug, Dug and Rug so sisters not being shown would not say anything but she is Cidney.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shorty

So if you like all of these other things about her, it's safe to say that putting her boobs on display is an unnecessary sexualization that they could have done without because you would like her anyway regardless of whether or not her boob were showing.

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I'm not going to complain if they make hot lookin' ladies, no. Is it ever necessary to do this? No. But they do it. I'm okay with that. They make hot lookin' dudes, I'm cool with that too. Boobs on display does increase physical attraction. This is one of the most commonly known things in the history of humankind and I'm shocked if you think it's not true.

Quote:

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Since you won't shut the smurf up about what females personally consider to be sexualized males, here you go.

absolutely NSFW
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/...s_chin_mus.JPG

Otherwise, sorry, but a dude standing there with big muscles does not make him sexualized. It means he has big muscles. End of story.

---

Do you find that to be really physically attractive? If there were a character dressed like that, do you think he'd be really popular with the ladies? If so, throw him in, hell, I don't mind. But I've been told all my life that buff dudes (and that guy is muscular, don't kid yourself that Jonas has the physical condition of a regular bloke) in their underwear were not attractive. Especially when I watched WWF and WWE. So yeah, I've been coditioned by females to believe that this is not what women want.

Also, to go back to Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps, it generally backs up the theory that women just don't buy into this kind of thing like men do...

Quote:

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Nude male centerfolds come and go as women's magazines try to persuade us that women's attitudes to nudity are now the same as men's. These centrefolds vanish just as quickly as they appear, but it has been shown that they increase overall readership by gay men.

All attempts at selling porn to women have failed although, during the late 1990s, there was an increase in the sale of semi-naked male pin-up calendars, which ended up sout-stripping the sales of female nude calendars. The buyers of nude male calendars have been shown to fall into three categories - teenage girls who want pictures of their favourite movie or rock star, women who want it as a humorous joke for one of their friends, and gay men.

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It just makes me feel like what lots of men find to be the peak of physical attraction (including but not limited to the showing of cleavage) is not the same as what women find to be the peak of physical attraction. I'm not saying that men can't find a covered up women attractive, we can. Nor am I saying that no women find near-nude dudes to be the peak of physical attraction, some obviously do. But I think Square Enix is going for the peak physical attraction for at least one of their characters in each of the games and I think for men and women that leads to very different results.

From what I've seen of the new video, I think it confirms further that she is sexualised but I also think that to assume that she is restricted to being a sex object and a sex object alone is on par with me saying the same for Gladiolus. I believe they've both been sexed up, I don't believe either will end up being nothing but sex objects.

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I personally do not find either Joe Jonas or those photos to be physically attractive, no. You asked me to provide a photo of a male being sexualized, and that is the photo I provided. A male being sexualized. And sorry, but Joe Jonas broke the internet with those photos the same way Kim Kardashian broke the internet with her ass photos, just to a lesser degree. You just weren't in the demographic it was directed at and thus and didn't hear about it.

As I said earlier, attraction does not equal sexualization. Which you seem to still be confusing with the rest of your post, so I really have nothing else to say on the matter, except that if you take advice on what ladies prefer pased on WWF and WWE, I feel sorry for you.

BoB, here is something I would consider sexualization of men.

It is very NSFW so I'm spoilering it, and only linking instead of actually posting the imagehttp://i.imgur.com/Cf5Nk.jpg

The men are muscular, nude (while covering their business), and also wearing hats to appeal to the "women like men in uniform" look. This image is pretty much there to sexualize those men. At least in my opinion. There's a difference between that and just a muscular dude in jeans, just like there's a difference between a curvy attractive lady and a curvy attractive lady with her boobs hanging out and groping herself, for example (not saying Cidney is doing that, just using it as an example)

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if you take advice on what ladies prefer based on WWF and WWE, I feel sorry for you.

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No, that was just an example. I've been told my entire life that women don't like nudie dudies. Perhaps I have been misled, I dunno. I've also grown up in a house where my Mum would regularly draw female nudes because she felt the female body was beautiful, but rarely draw dudes the same way. This was a common theme throughout my life, especially in the art arena and through discussions online and in person.

What I can say I have learned today is that sexualisation isn't to you guys what it is/was to me. Sexualisation to me was making a character as sexy as possible (generally directed at, but not limited to, heterosexual members of the opposite gender) for no other reason than to make them as sexy as possible. For yourselves, it seems to be accentuating what are culturally defined as sexual organs - ie, breasts, bums and genitals.

It just so happens that for women, what I thought was sexualising generally ends up being exactly the same as what you guys refer to as sexualising. Not so much for men.

Essentially, things done to girls to make them appear as physically attractive to guys as possible involve sexualising the girl, because that is what, on a very raw level (like it or not) guys tend to find make a woman appear at her sexiest. I am pretty sure I'm not being sexist when I say this, but rather referring to biological and scientifically proven fact without the need to cite anything. If you really want me to, just ask, I'm sure I can find something. ;)

However, the things done to guys to make them appear as physically attractive to girls as possible do not involve stripping him to his tighty whities, because, well, women have been shown to not subscribe to that kind of thing. See the stuff mentioned earlier, the quote from the book for citation.

So I'll concede that, based on a differing viewpoint of what sexualisation actually is, I've misunderstood what you girls were complaining about, but at the same time I will suddenly say "But hold on, how many girls are actually sexualised in that kind of way?" We don't know about Cidney's personality, but it's safe to assume she's not going to be there purely to stand there bending over in provocative positions. If you focus on clothing (which you guys have said you aren't, but I'm just putting this in for my own train of thought, before you all jump on me :p), then Kimahri and co could be argued to be sexualised, when we all know that's not the case. That means it's entirely down to the emphasis on boobs. In which case I go back to my opinion of boobs not being such a freakin' big deal in the first place. They may be culturally unacceptable in some countries, but in my opinion a girl is allowed to show off her rack and it's perfectly fine, I don't count it on par with genitalia (and no FF babe has her genitalia defined to my knowledge, certainly no more than that of a guy). Finally, we go to job unsuitability and then we're back at square one again when I say "Guys don't wear job appropriate gear either, this is all being decided by some fashion chain."

It's frustrating to not really get my head around this, honestly I'm trying. Don't think my arguments are because I think you're terrible and wrong or anything, I'm legit trying to understand where you're coming from but the logic in my head doesn't really get it at the moment, and these linked sites are just so generalised that I find myself agreeing because Dead or Alive etc. are blatant sexualisation. But for Final Fantasy, I'm not seeing it the same way. I'm not rejecting your opinions, I'm just saying that I can only say what I think and/or agree with and so far the logic rollin' around in my head isn't piecing things together the same way you girls are. Maybe in time, I dunno, I'm just really confused and a little frustrated and not really seeing the same thing you ladies seem to be seeing, or not interpreting intention and/or results of said intention the same way.

If Cidney starts rubbing her boobs and moaning, or spends her entire time talking about sex, or something like that, then I will hold my hands in the air and say "You guys are right" but she hasn't done that.

...yet. :shifty:

At first I was really excited to see a XV thread with almost 250 posts! Until I actually read the posts. :aimsad:

Well, I just hope they go with Cidney and not Cindy.

Khimari is not sexualised. There is a reason for him dressing like that - tribal, and his whole race dresses like that too.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

It's frustrating to not really get my head around this, honestly I'm trying. Don't think my arguments are because I think you're terrible and wrong or anything, I'm legit trying to understand where you're coming from but the logic in my head doesn't really get it at the moment, and these linked sites are just so generalised that I find myself agreeing because Dead or Alive etc. are blatant sexualisation. But for Final Fantasy, I'm not seeing it the same way. I'm not rejecting your opinions, I'm just saying that I can only say what I think and/or agree with and so far the logic rollin' around in my head isn't piecing things together the same way you girls are. Maybe in time, I dunno, I'm just really confused and a little frustrated and not really seeing the same thing you ladies seem to be seeing, or not interpreting intention and/or results of said intention the same way.

If Cidney starts rubbing her boobs and moaning, or spends her entire time talking about sex, or something like that, then I will hold my hands in the air and say "You guys are right" but she hasn't done that.

...yet. :shifty:

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Well let's remove all the concept and theory and put this out into face-value terms shall we?

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

What was that one phrase from most of the Versus XIII trailers right up until the rebranding to Final Fantasy XV?

This is a fantasy based on reality.

Now tell me, how many mechanics have you seen dressed like that in real life?

At least the clothes the guys are wearing are more believable as practical (if slightly exaggerated high-market) everyday fashion. (same with the likes of Luna and Stella)

But a mechanic dressed like that, really? You can't see why some people might feel it's a bit ludicrous? Might as well change her name to Cidney "The Mechanic" from Page 3 of The Sun.

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Let me put a re-emphasis on that one point with a screenshot:

http://i.imgur.com/crZjbmy.jpg

Now then, imagine that Final Fantasy games had always had female protagonists and all the major characters were always female with males filling in for support characters and non-major NPCs. Cid in all the previous games was female too.

Then this new game comes along and goes "hey guys look Cid is male this time" and all he's wearing is a Borat G-string to show off his bulge, some goggles and has a few splashes of oil on his face to warrant being called a mechanic. Pretty unbelievable right?

This is the issue here, Cidney is the first time Cid has been female and she is a) not wearing attire remotely suitable for an actual mechanic (this would potentially be a minor point, but this is a game that's supposed to be more grounded in reality after all - and the other females we've seen like Luna and Stella are modestly dressed... one could even go so far as using the word "normally" dressed) and b) has huge boobs that are gratuitiously held out in what could only be described as a gravity defying push-up bra and c) has her midriff on display, wearing hotpants AND high heeled knee-high boots. So yay, Cid is female for a change - but also had to be overly sexualised as a result. Because just putting her into mechanics overalls (ala Kaylee from FireFly) would be far too unrealistic. Right?

Daniel at this point you should just say "Actually, yeah, you know what? I love tits. It sucks that females are marginalised and over sexualised in this game but that's a price I'm willing to pay for teh b00bz."

I haven't read every post and can't respond properly anyway because I'm heading into the Christmas madness and am posting on my phone, but I can see now that the issue with you, at least, Daniel, is a genuine complete not understanding what "se ualized" means. That's fine; I will be happy to give you examples and help clarify the difference. First it would help if you would take your list of male FF examples and explain how they fit the definition of sexualized.

Psy: xD As much as I love boobs, and have no denying of that, I'm not "wanting to marginalise women because boobs", I'm just tryin' to get my head around all this in a way that helps me understand where the ladies are coming from better because a loooot of stuff in this thread has had my head going around in circles.

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

This is a fantasy based on reality.

Now tell me, how many mechanics have you seen dressed like that in real life?

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None. Haven't seen many soldiers in the real world who enter combat dressed in an open jacket either - silly costumes is something that I consider normal in FF. And often silly = for the sake of increasing physical attractiveness or general "coolness".

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Then this new game comes along and goes "hey guys look Cid is male this time" and all he's wearing is a Borat G-string to show off his bulge, some goggles and has a few splashes of oil on his face to warrant being called a mechanic. Pretty unbelievable right?

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Well, a borat suit isn't exactly very attractive by any length. If it was a guy dressed in, say, boxers of some kind, I'd think it was really silly. But I wouldn't get upset, I'd just think it's a stupid outfit for a mechanic. Of course, I see guys working on cars with no shirt in the media all the time which may not help the issue there (I'm stupid when it comes to that end of things) and it probably doesn't help my natural understanding of this stuff when guys, if anything, might not mind being treated like sex objects every now and then. >_> Or at least I wouldn't. I'm not what many people refer to as sexy so on the few occasions a girl has looked at me and made some kind of comment about my physical appearance I've been pretty chuffed (sadly to this day it is limited to my hands, my abs when I was 15 and shivering from a cold pool - RIP my 15 year old abs - and my butt which I never understand because to this day I just don't understand why people like butts).

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This is the issue here, Cidney is the first time Cid has been female and she is a) not wearing attire remotely suitable for an actual mechanic (this would potentially be a minor point, but this is a game that's supposed to be more grounded in reality after all - and the other females we've seen like Luna and Stella are modestly dressed... one could even go so far as using the word "normally" dressed) and b) has huge boobs that are gratuitiously held out in what could only be described as a gravity defying push-up bra.

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Experience tells me otherwise when girls say something like this. :shifty: For her frame, they're definitely big, though.

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So yay, Cid is female for a change - but also had to be overly sexualised as a result. Because just putting her into mechanics overalls (ala Kaylee from FireFly) would be far too unrealistic. Right?

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To be fair, Kaylee - looks aside - was a pretty sexual creature when compared to Cindy.

But yeah, I get where you're coming from with the "historic" stuff. It's the first time she's been sexualised and she's a girl. I would call it a bad choice by SE because of the natural backlash it was going to get. If it were the second girl, or if a Cid had previously been a mechanic and topless, would there have been the same fuss? I do wonder. As for "Fantasy based on reality" - I take that with a gigantic pinch of salt (and I'm grateful it's not set in reality) because aside from the shape of cities and the fact that while the clothes are absurd for what they're doing, they're still clothes you see in the real world... it's all still blatantly fantasy. Which is a relief for me.

I get this argument a lot better than I get the rest of the sexualising arguments vs. gender arguments. I think that's the part that has me thrown for a loop.

I do think a lot of this comes from a completely different way of looking at sexualisation between genders, though. Firstly that guys just don't mind being sexualised nearly as much as girls (probably for social/cultural/historic reasons), secondly that boobs are something that differ between genders and therefore there is a kind of double standard based on that (which I personally disagree with but accept that I can't snap my fingers and change society, culture or decades of history and beliefs or whatever), and finally that we typically (according to studies!) find different kinds of states of dress more/less attractive than each other.

But as for "was it a bad call?" - yeah, if they wanted to get someone skimpy clothing they should probably have gone for a different character, I guess, to avoid the historic ties to Cid and a backlash based on that.

However, if there were no historic ties to Cid to consider, if I had never known of Cid's history... I don't think I'd have blinked. If it were any other character, I wonder if anyone would have blinked. I certainly don't think that it's something to do with wearing reasonable clothes for a job because that's something that is par for the course at Final Fantasy and this being a "fantasy based on reality" doesn't mean all the clothes are going to be reasonable. I'd say the guys don't all have reasonable clothing, one girl so far doesn't, and I'm pretty confident we'll see more characters with stupid clothing before we're done with 'em.

Shlup (you snuck in after I'd typed up the above): I think I get it a little better now although I'm still not 100% certain. Is it simply a case of sexualised = has what are considered sexual organs being "on display" when there is no story-relevant reason to do so? So it's like... Tifa is fine because she works at a bar so wears clothes typical to that job (although the question could be raised whether they should be relevant to that job, but that's waaaaay off topic), Kimahri is fine because he's tribal, Fran is fine because she's tribal, Vanille is fine because it's some special attire for a ceremony she was going through for her tribal thing, but Rikku in a bikini for FFX-2 is not, Kuja in a codpiece while acting as a gundealer is not, Ultimecia's boobs are blatantly sexualised and you can throw your Cidney into the pile for the reasons mentioned throughout this thread?

Something like that, I'm gathering.

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If it were any other character, I wonder if anyone would have blinked.

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They would have.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

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If it were any other character, I wonder if anyone would have blinked.

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They would have.

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Significantly fewer people though.

Probably a similar level to when LeBreau kicked in.

There'd be one less argument to present, that's it. Removing her connection to Cid wouldn't change people's perspectives on the outfit.

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Originally Posted by ToriJ

There'd be one less argument to present, that's it. Removing her connection to Cid wouldn't change people's perspectives on the outfit.

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True. It would still affect fewer people in the first place. The fact that she's a Cid causes more people to care about it.

Just watch the first 50 seconds of this (note things like the camera angles used etc)



And you're right, more people probably do care because she's Cid. One of the "recurring" characters who has had some sort major role in the majority of main-numbered Final Fantasy games, and the first time Cid is female - she is unnecessarily over sexualised. The real kicker here is that it is especially evident when taking her in comparison to the rest of the known XV cast. Though to be quite honest, I imagine any character posed as a mechanic dressed in a similar way would elicit a similar reaction regardless of the namesakes history.

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this being a "fantasy based on reality" doesn't mean all the clothes are going to be reasonable. I'd say the guys don't all have reasonable clothing, one girl so far doesn't, and I'm pretty confident we'll see more characters with stupid clothing before we're done with 'em.

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I didn't say reasonable, I said believable as practical (if high-market) everyday fashion. Again in relation to the rest of the known cast, so far Cidney sticks out like a sore thumb compared to everyone else. The guys are wearing what you could reasonably believe teenage/early-20s would be wearing. Is what the guys wearing suitable for combat, not really, but that's pretty much something that falls into suspension of disbelief when their attire would otherwise look relatively normal for who they are.

Luna is from nobility and is dressed modestly, like wise from the very little of we've seen of Stella since the re-design she's pretty modestly dressed. The Regis looks formal, the leader of the empire looks regal. Cidney, however, looks one jacket zip strip away from being a pole dancer at a roller disco, not something you might reasonably believe someone who works with machines all day would be wearing. Have you ever worked with oil? It's an absolute bastard to wash off your skin and clothes, no-one in their right mind would dress like Cidney is if being a mechanic was their daily profession.

She is so out of place stylistically with the rest of what we've seen thus far. On that note, watch the later footage of them running around the town and tell me how many people you see who are dressed similar to Cidney.

If everyone was going around dressed like they were at a high school roller disco, or all the guys were in leather pants and their pecs showing and all the girls were in frimpy frilly mini skirts and too-small/tight-to-contain-their-boobs-tops, then yeah, it would probably be given more leeway as an "oh Japan, you so crazy" aesthetical choice (not that it's necessarily an any better situation, but that's something for another thread).

But in this case, Cidney is the odd one out, and that's what people are crying fowl over. While character development story-wise, SE don't always have the greatest track record with major female characters (see Raistlin's sexism series) - at least the majority of them post-VI, design wise, haven't fallen into the male voyeurism bracket that plagues the RPG genre.

Perhaps, maybe, people have come to expect (or at least hope for) more from Final Fantasy than needing to show off an over-sexualised token eyecandy female?

I think SE have made it abundantly clear that the whole "taking on significant sociopolitical issues" thing was just a phase they were going through with FFVI, and they really have no intention of taking the player any more seriously than the series did at that point.

Things like the cheap eye-candy Cid we've been given show that they're not paying as much attention to the story as I would like, which I find troubling. I've always had a red flag go off in my mind whenever an entertainment program (or commercial, as it were) tried to use sex to get my attention (and presumably my money, too). I make it a point to treat what I am about to hear/see/do with extreme scrutiny whenever a sexy image is used as part of the hook.

It's pandering to the lowest common denominator, and I wish Final Fantasy would grow up along with me, but it's been made clear by those who gatekeep for the series that they do not want to "grow the series up," as it were.

:/ One of those things in life that just needs to be accepted, dealt with, and moved on from, I guess.

For the next two days I`ll be awkwardly typing on a tablet, so please forgive the lack of citations. If you want a citation I woul consider it a personal favor if you would try google first, but if you request a citation I will of course find one.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

When, in a specific game and/or series, I feel the genders are sexualised and/or not sexualised to a reasonably equal degree (gender-wise), no, I don't care. If, such as in a game like Dead or Alive, we see it blatantly one-sided, I think it's bad. Doesn't mean I'm going to lose my trout, but I feel these games go too far. They're entitled to make these games and like yourself, I'm entitled to not buy them, but hey, whatever. Still, I can see the appeal of these games to people who are seeking titilation without the use of outright porn. I won't kick up a stink about it, but I'm happy to state my opinion on any particular game and/or series if I have one and feel like putting it out there. FF just happens to be a series close to my heart and if I feel people are overreacting, I'm just as happy - if not even happier, due to the series being something I'm fond of - to express my opinion on it.

I'll also note that when I feel they go too far, I still express an opinion against Final Fantasy - such as in the case of Fran, which I personally felt was ridiculous. But some people - interestingly often female - like that, so I wasn't going to make a huge fuss.

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I appreciate the clarification.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Gladiolus. Tidus. Barret. Snow. Gadolt. Kuja (although personally I imagine that the majority of girls are more likely to find other characters sexier than Kuja, like Basch, because girls tend to prefer the feather to the whole damned chicken, which I personally agree with but hey, if you like the codpiece, power to you).

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Aside from Gladiolus's open shirt, I have no idea why you'd consider these characters sexualized. Please be specific.

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Keep in mind these objective facts: The oldest [human] female character is Lulu at 22 and oldest male is Strago at 70. At least 23FFIV Cid (54), Yang (35), Tellah (60), Edward (24), Fusoya (?), Edge (26), Galuf (60), Locke (25), Edgar (27), Sabin (27), Cyan (50), Strago (70), Setzer (27), Barrett (35), Vincent (27), Steiner (33), Amarant (26), Auron (35), Wakka (23), Basch (36), Sazh (40) playable male characters are older than 22-year-old Lulu; not counting temporarily playable characters over 22 (Laguna, Kiros, Ward, Seymour), characters of unknown age other than obviously elderly Fusoya (Shadow and Gogo), and non-humans 25-year-old Kimahri and 46-year-old Red.

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I've acknowledged already that the age thing is something they can work on.[/quote]
What happened to "fair and equal"?

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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There are no non-humanoid female characters.

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Freya. Unless you mean non-humanoid in a more loose term, in which case there's probably only been one non-humanoid ever, Red XIII. All the rest have two arms, two legs, a vertical torso, a neck, a head, etc.

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I would call Freya humanoid but Can't With non-humanoid being that he's a cat.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

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To my knowledge, no male characters pose in a way designed specifically to expose their secondary sex charactersticshttp://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ctory_Pose.png.

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It's a bit unfair as males don't have boobs or any kind of "secondary sex characteristics" I can think of according to society. We've just got the genitalia, which to my knowledge isn't exaggerated in either gender beyond that seen in Kuja.

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Men have many secondary sex characteristics, they just aren't sexualized as women are. Women's bodies are sexualized to the point where women are being shamed out of feeding their babies and told that they need to cover their shoulders so as not to "distract the boys." The most noticable secondary sex characteristics on boys are increased muscle tone and widened shoulders, yet boys are not told to cover their shoulders or biceps to avoid distracting the boys, and a man can walk down the street without a shirt on freely. In some places women can be assaulted or killers for exposing something deemed sexualized to that culture, while many places will laugh at you for thinking boobs are sexy because they're "for babies." Where in the world is a man slut shamed for showing a body part?

I understand you get that inequality exists and that all of the above is bad, but you seem unwilling to apply that knowledge to the world as you live in it. Men are harder to sexualized simply because men, as a whole, are less sexualized.

Yes, I understand you feel women buying into this as well justifies the disparity. Both videos I posted address this briefly... We are socialized early and often that a female's value is her body. Do you believe women are somehow immune to socialization? This is not an issue with men; it's an issue with all of society.

I feel like I'll need to expand on how socialization leads both genders to sexualize/idealize/"appreciate" the female body, but I'll leave it at that for now.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

...Aeris? >_>; But kidding aside, again, I don't think we can say much of this for anyone. Has sex ever actually been a thing in FF? Personally speaking, I think sexualised should include "being dressed inappropriately for ones role for the sake of gaining sexual appeal via physical attraction." If one of the above was meant to equate to that, it goes back to "is it sexy, is it relevant for what they do" and we're back to what we've been discussing earlier.

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That last bit would refer to such things as Cidney working on cars in smurf me boots and Tifa kick boxing in a microskirt with her painfully large cans. It does mean people wearing clothes that don't make sense for the reason of appealing to someone else.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

I'm troubled here because every single guy I can think of that is supposed to be sexually attractive appears to be muscular (and therefore powerful) because that is what is deemed to be sexy according to most females. So I could tell you Gladiolus, and you could say "No, he's strong, that's a power thing." And I don't know where to go from there because it's down to how you personally want to interpret it. The guy legitimately looks like a male model, to me at least.

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Well apparently you think Barrett is dressed for the express purpose of arousing me, so you're right to not trust you judgment.

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Really, I think before we can go much further, you need to send me examples of sexualised males (...probably better to do so via PM or something) so I can get a better understanding of your interpretation of what they should look like. I've grown up being told (by females) that male wrestlers in tiny pants was not something they found attractive, but I'm getting the impression that this is what you mean by sexualised, because I'm unsure what else it could be.

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You're confusing exposed skin with sexualization. A skirt with a slit up the thigh is sexualized; a gymnist running toward a vaulting horse in her leotard is not sexualized, despite showing more leg.

Note that you're often dismissing examples because a hyper sexualized male seems ridiculous; this kind of proves the point--you said yourself that you don't even blink at hypersexualiuzed female character, yet this just looks silly:

http://fitpop.com/wp-content/uploads...ermen-Head.gif

...That's all I have time for; it's present opening time.

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I think SE have made it abundantly clear that the whole "taking on significant sociopolitical issues" thing was just a phase they were going through with FFVI, and they really have no intention of taking the player any more seriously than the series did at that point.

Things like the cheap eye-candy Cid we've been given show that they're not paying as much attention to the story as I would like, which I find troubling. I've always had a red flag go off in my mind whenever an entertainment program (or commercial, as it were) tried to use sex to get my attention (and presumably my money, too). I make it a point to treat what I am about to hear/see/do with extreme scrutiny whenever a sexy image is used as part of the hook.

It's pandering to the lowest common denominator, and I wish Final Fantasy would grow up along with me, but it's been made clear by those who gatekeep for the series that they do not want to "grow the series up," as it were.

:/ One of those things in life that just needs to be accepted, dealt with, and moved on from, I guess.

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I feel you on that one. I think this is exactly why Type-0 is resonating with me more than XV currently is. I mean yeah, they're in school, which is Japanese Fiction 101 these days, but other than that, the story seems intended for a more mature audience than your average FF, the characters (though girls in school uniforms may get a rise, but its Japan, they don't know any other type of uniform for girls) nobody seems all that sexualized, and the story, setting, atmosphere, all seem to take both the characters and (more importantly) the player more serious than the FFXIII saga, and possibly XV.

But again, I'm only half following things, and I've probably made that a little too clear by my ignorance on certain things. I still don't know what this girl's name is. People are switching between calling her Cidney and Cindy, and I'm not sure why we went back to calling her Cindy

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

SO STOP BUYING THEIR GAMES FOR CHRIST'S SAKE

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Late, but I just saw this video and it made me think of this post. It explains why boycotts don't really work and provides actual examples (Mass Effect 3 for one!) where having a massive online bitchfest actually does influence things.

Strong language, kiddos.

Heh, I like that video.

Anyway, now that I'm home I want to clarify what "sexualization" means. For the sake of this, and because we're talking about general sexualization and not sexual objectification, we'll go with the basic dictionary definition of sexualization: "to make sexual; endow with a sexual character or cast," as it kind of encompasses all of the APA's definitions anyway. This can come in the form of the subject suggesting a receptiveness to sexual advances by use of clothing, poses, facial expressions, environment, narrative (for example, an innocent enough picture with a sexual innuendo as text). There's also, as BoB has noted, the audience imposing sexuality on a subject without any of the above.

These are a few of People's "Sexiest Men Alive." They are not at all sexualized in these photos--we see their face, smiling charmingly, and they are fully clothed.
http://img2-3.timeinc.net/people/i/2...sma_cover2.jpg
http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/200...00_300x400.jpg
http://www.star941fm.com/pages/funph...live-cover.jpg
http://img2.timeinc.net/people/i/200...01_300x400.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...le-clooney.jpg


These are a few of Esquire's "Sexist Women Alive." They are showing skin for the purpose of being tantalizing. They are posed the way they are for the same reason. No charming smiles--they're all giving you bedroom eyes.
http://cdn.evilbeetgossip.com/wp-con...on-esquire.jpg
http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/im...e-1109-mdn.jpg
http://sidewalkhustle.com/wp-content...2012-Cover.jpg

Showing skin in and of itself doesn't make someone sexualized. For example...

Here are some women who are showing skin but not sexualized because their outfits suit their activity and aren't designed to be tantalizing.
Obviously the audience often chooses to objectify women in these outfits, but that's their own personal issue and may or may not be a problem depending on degree and frequency.

I will note, though, that men's volleyball players don't seem to "need" tiny shorts in order to do their sport. Though I suppose their balls would fall right out of them anyway. You could also make the argument, for the swimmers, that women's swimwear being designed to be more revealing than men's is an issue. You could also make the argument that women being forced to cover their breasts because they're so sexualized is an issue.

http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/a...1293810459.jpg
http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/a...1293751292.jpg
http://www.suseagulls.com/images/swi...0910/team2.jpg
http://users.rowan.edu/~mcalli63/swimteamfl.jpg
http://dissidia-france.com/img/perso.../exm/terra.png


Here it's men who're showing skin, but it's to show their strength. Look at their poses and their expressions; they are showing their power.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-23VB6UjEH8...52Bwwe%2B4.jpg
http://www.images22.com/pics/04/sexi...-the-stage.jpg
http://media.psu.com/media/articles/image/Barret_2.jpg

This man is also showing his body, but he's clearly doing it to be tantalizing. This is is so rare that it only became a "thing" in like 2013, and it has a name, "hunkvertizing." Objectifying women is just advertizing--it we're sexualizing men then it's so care it gets its own name!
I mean, yeah, things like fashion and cologne have always used sex to sell, both men and women, but salad dressing?

http://timenewsfeed.files.wordpress....0614.jpg?w=753
http://d1bb041l1ipbcm.cloudfront.net...-zesty-man.jpg
http://i.huffpost.com/gadgets/slides...32400_free.jpg


Note that I'm not saying it's automatically bad to be sexualized. We all like to sexualize ourselves from time to time--we enjoy being sexual subjects. I'm also not saying objectification is always bad--it's certainly unavoidable, to say the least. But it does matter that women are sexualized and objectified far, far more than men (by both men and women, so it really doesn't help to say "but women like the sexy characters too"--yes, we are all socialized to value women for their looks more than men). You can make the argument that FF isn't as bad as... whatever else, but that doesn't earn it a pass. It's certainly not fair and equal, and hypersexualized characters like Cidney don't cease to influence players' perceptions just because she's part of a game that has... another female character somewhere who's pretty but mostly clothed. Or something. I'd be surprised if the game even passed the Bechdel Test.

Being honest, Cidney just pisses me off. They had the opportunity to do something simple but cool but they turned it into cheap pandering. It's insulting.

For fun, here are some things I came across while looking for pictures of objectified men (NSFW):
10 Times When Comics And Movies Sexualized Male Superheroes
Le sexisme inversé - Many of these aren't equal because the men are less attractive than the women, but I thought they were funny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

You're confusing exposed skin with sexualization. A skirt with a slit up the thigh is sexualized; a gymnist running toward a vaulting horse in her leotard is not sexualized, despite showing more leg.

Note that you're often dismissing examples because a hyper sexualized male seems ridiculous; this kind of proves the point--you said yourself that you don't even blink at hypersexualiuzed female character, yet this just looks silly:

http://fitpop.com/wp-content/uploads...ermen-Head.gif

...That's all I have time for; it's present opening time.

---

If this and your last post don't finally make some people understand what you're arguing here then there's no hope for some people. Literally no hope for any of them.

Oh yeah, I forgot I was going to talk more about crotch bulges! I would like to make sure all the men here are aware of this inarguable fact: David Bowie's crotch bulge ushered my entire generation of ladies into puberty.

http://fancydresscostumes.co.uk/blog...-bulge-gif.gif

http://40.media.tumblr.com/45970fbb4...oaeto1_500.jpg

For more information, see this Reddit thread.

One of the things that it's important to remember about things like this is that the argument of feminism is very sound and utilitarian. Practical, even. If you judge people based on their gender you will avoid picking the best person for a job...it has been enormously beneficial to our society (I wager) to have a mixed workforce.

Teaching people that it's ok to regard someone as less of a person due to their gender is a largely counter-productive thing. I wonder how this figures into the "Peter Principle?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...m0GlAlls#t=915

Link is to the part of the trailer analysis that covers Cidney. Rolling my eyes so hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...m0GlAlls#t=915

Link is to the part of the trailer analysis that covers Cidney. Rolling my eyes so hard.

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Did you see the part at 26:38? It shows another scantily clad female NPC. He assured the audience that she dresses that way because it plays a very important part in the game :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyson

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...m0GlAlls#t=915

Link is to the part of the trailer analysis that covers Cidney. Rolling my eyes so hard.

---

Did you see the part at 26:38? It shows another scantily clad female NPC. He assured the audience that she dresses that way because it plays a very important part in the game :P

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This is just ridiculous. You know I remember defending the all male cast in another thread: "It's OK, you can do this from time to time, I don't think it's sexist if you have a particular theme you want to explore".

The more I see though the more I think the creators just figured girls would just be too distracting for the men as they try and save the world.

Come on: "Guys, guys. The reason why she's dressed like that... she plays a very very important role in the game. You'll find out." Is there some weird rule I'm not aware of where the more important a role a woman plays, the less they must wear?

Dem bikini models are critical to the role of FFXV. OMG that woman is naked she must be the most important character yet!

You are now singing to yourself:

"Ah!"

"Ah!"

"CID LOOKS LIKE A LADY"

You're welcome

But being dead serious about this, I don't think I can fathom the amount of raging boners that Japan has on a yearly basis.

I think we can all agree that Yoshitaka Amano's women were pretty tastefully clothed at this point, don't you?

Not all of them, but for the most part. Amano really liked his costumes, he'd put a lot of work into giving each character something really interesting to wear.

Quote:

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But being dead serious about this, I don't think I can fathom the amount of raging boners that Japan has on a yearly basis.

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My hypothesis is that it would be a much more progressive nation if they didn't censor their porn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyson

Did you see the part at 26:38? It shows another scantily clad female NPC. He assured the audience that she dresses that way because it plays a very important part in the game :P

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Oh don't worry, I'm sure it's very important.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I think we can all agree that Yoshitaka Amano's women were pretty tastefully clothed at this point, don't you?

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Yeah, I think so. Both males and females tended to show skin, but it felt more whimsical than sexual. May have to do with the distinct lack of back-breaking taa taas though.

Tifa's boobs aren't really that big, though! As someone who wears an E-cup, I can safely say her boobs are far from being back-breaking or would cause her "serious" back problems.

Tifa's boobs are very big for her small frame. You have the frame to support larger breasts. Tifa doesn't, and she's a kick boxer besides. The only two people I know who have been physically active with small frames and large breasts had them reduced. The people I know with large breasts who haven't had them reduced are not physically active and have larger frames, though two of the three still complain of back issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Tifa's boobs are very big for her small frame. You have the frame to support larger breasts. Tifa doesn't, and she's a kick boxer besides. The only two people I know who have been physically active with small frames and large breasts had them reduced. The people I know with large breasts who haven't had them reduced are not physically active and have larger frames, though two of the three still complain of back issues.

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According to this wiki, Tifa is 5'5". Three of the four sources cited for her height are that (167 cm = 5'5"). It doesn't list a weight.

Now, plugging that height into a BMI calculator along with the hypothetical weight of 150 lbs (conservative for her tiny tummy, but she is very muscled) produces a BMI of 25, in the "overweight" category. Tifa would be overweight at anything over 150 lbs. That is the maximum healthy weight for a woman of her height.

How much of that is her exocrine glands? According to this (NSFW!! Science), breasts weigh between 1.1 and 2.2 pounds each, and (I guess) tend to be close in weight to each other.

I calculated what percent of 150 lbs 4.4 is, and it comes out to almost 3%.

What happens as her weight goes down, but not the weight of her breasts?

Assuming a weight of 125 gives us the BMI of 20.8, (right in the middle of the normal weight zone) and her breasts (assumed to still be 4.4 lbs total) are now 3.5% of her total body weight.

Anything under about 110 would be dangerously unhealthy, and certainly not supportive of a martial artist's calorie needs. At 110 her breasts become a solid 4% of her total body weight.

This really doesn't seem like much, and it suddenly occurs to me: large breasts aren't difficult on the back because of their weight...it's constantly having to wear a tight strap around your back to hold them in place, and move them away from things, because the bigger they are, the more sensitive they are.

But I can't really know, as I (obviously) have never had the pleasure of owning a pair. :-/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

This really doesn't seem like much, and it suddenly occurs to me: large breasts aren't difficult on the back because of their weight...it's constantly having to wear a tight strap around your back to hold them in place, and move them away from things, because the bigger they are, the more sensitive they are./

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Sorry, but this is incredibly wrong. They are uncomfortable with or without bras and it is because of the weight, and also because it puts unnecessary stress on parts of your body that are not accustomed to unnecessary stress, even to a small degree. It might not sound like much, but try to strap 9-20 pounds worth of weights to your pecks and walk around with them and see how great your neck feels after just a few days. It is not awesome. Additionally, the glands you mentioned to not make up the entire weight/mass of breasts. There is quite a bit of fat and tissue as well.

However, with that being said, bras do not add for comfort, but they are not the main source of the discomfort.

There's no way Tifa is 150 pounds. She is likely closer to 120-125, possibly even less because of her physique and training, and should probably be a B cup or less if we are going for accurate proportions. But she does not appear to be a B cup, so Shlup's points stand.

Tifa is 120 at absolute max. I'm 160 and notably chubby; even with jugs there's no way Tifa is near 150.

Sorry, until you have to carry D cups on a slim frame around, Spooniest, you can't say it's not uncomfortable :p

I love going braless when I know I'm not doing anything that day, but it is certainly easier to go about my day with them fastened in. I really hope Tifa is wearing a good sports bra, because with all that jumping around she's going to hurt herself more than anyone else...

The Never-Ending Thread of Excessive Breast Size.

Related: After some excessive eating, I am in danger of entering the realms of bra-wearing myself.

Tangentially related: How poor representation of women damages gameplay 101:

1) Women usually get shoved into the 'healer' role.
2) The women usually get kidnapped by the bad guy.
3) You spend big chunks of a game without a healer!! fffffuuu

I'm playing one of the Tales games at the moment where that happened. It's very frustrating. Then of course in FFIX you effectively lose Dagger for a chunk of it (and no Eiko is not an acceptable replacement). FFX, same thing with Yuna. Pretty sure at least one Star Ocean game pulled the same.

I guess one upside of the bro-fest that is FFXV means we won't have to worry about that.

Properly on topic: So I had my attention drawn to a shot of one of Noctis's swords and it was pointed out to me that it had a freaking motorcycle engine on it. This is, of course, ridiculous. But I guess they're taking the 'road trip' theme very seriously. If they are actually engines for some reason, and given that Cidney's a mechanic... perhaps an armourer as well?

Removing any of your core party members from the lineup for a length of time is annoying in general.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shorty

try to strap 9-20 pounds worth of weights

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Where is this figure coming from?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox_

1) Women usually get shoved into the 'healer' role.

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This always annoys me too. Same with guys always being the best tanks/DPS. I find it refreshing when it's different. FFII did this well - best healer in the game was a dude. FFXIII was thankfully pretty balanced and broke a lot of stereotypes, mind you, notably with two ladies being the best fighters in the game and Hope pushing Vanille for best healer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shorty

try to strap 9-20 pounds worth of weights

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Where is this figure coming from?

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I've always heard boobs were in the 8 lbs range myself. Though can't recall if that's 4 lbs per boob or 8 lbs per boob. Especially when you're in the DDD and up range. But I can't personally validate the claim with any cited data. I just know this is how my girlfriend feels with her boobage and if she didn't hate surgery and doctors so much I'm sure she'd seriously consider a breast reduction

I linked to a Wikipedia article on breast structure guys...Y U NO CLICK LINK

1.1 to 2.2 lbs per breast, that's what it says.

So my guessing about weight was off. It doesn't take awake from the fact that they are uncomfortable and cause pain. It's not all fun and games in that area.

Why don't we get back on topic?

Cidney is a new thing for Final Fantasy, and they are always trying to deliver new things. This wasn't a bad idea, just horribly horribly executed without the slightest bit of subtlety or grace.

At least what she's wearing looks fashionable enough. I was getting sick of all the buckles and zippers for god's sake.

Yeah, I think Nomura's getting his buckles and zippers jollies off redesigning batman suits and stuff, isn't he?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyk

I've always heard boobs were in the 8 lbs range myself.

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You're thinking of your head.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Cidney is a new thing for Final Fantasy, and they are always trying to deliver new things. This wasn't a bad idea, just horribly horribly executed without the slightest bit of subtlety or grace.

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Agreed. It's like someone thought to do something nice and then someone else decided to just smurf it all up. I hope she's pleasant enough as a character.

Though I also want to note that they keep saying she's not important to the story, but the trailer spends a significant amount of time showing her off. I think I will write a letter expressing my disappointment, actually.

Why does it matter? Everybody's chest is showing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

And to be fair, nobody even notices until that one person points it out. ^^;

The question about why it matters has already been answered repeatedly in this very thread.

I know I've posted Jimquisition in this thread earlier, but I'm on a massive binge watching every episode and god damn



Are men objectified in video games? Must watch viewing for anyone who has been interested by the issues raised in this thread. I particularly recommend it to Mr Loony BoB!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Polnareff

Why does it matter? Everybody's chest is showing. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

And to be fair, nobody even notices until that one person points it out. ^^;

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Yeah I'm completely sure you weren't flambloxomed by Cidney's vulumptuous bossoms until someone pointed out how curvacious they were popping out of that shirt. Anyone getting bamboozled over such mammaries must be kidding themselves.

Let me give you this virtual $1 million dollars. It's about as legit as your post was. Have fun spending it.

Men are largely not sexually objectified in video games, I don't think. They are, quite a disproportionate amount of the time, the main agents in the game that move the story forward and take actions that affect the plot. When females are given equal time, they are not given equal significance; i.e., they don't do a whole lot besides helping the male characters.

"But Spooooon!" you might say, "FFXIII! The Strong Female Characters! SEXISM IS OVER!"

If you have played the entire series, or even a large portion of it (as I have, up to XII which I did not finish), you know that what I'm saying is true.

How does this relate to sexual objectification?

Someone cannot be being objectified and be the sole agent working to move the plot forward (by their own decisions which succeed) at the same time. Granting a character in any narrative a moment where they are successfully acting to move the plot forward all by themselves is a very weighty decision for a writer to make, and it rarely, if ever, gets given to a female character in any FF game. I would challenge someone to create an extensive list of times females were granted agency in the plotline of a FF game.

One example I can immediately pull off the top of my head is FFIV. The Magus Sisters and Barbariccia are named characters in the story who attack the heroes.

...But then, they're villains.

FFV makes out better, what with Faris being all action-y early on, but she largely becomes irrelevant in the latter half of the game, providing mostly advice.

FFVI...um. It has a Female main character, yes. But she doesn't really do anything. She isn't her own master, she doesn't make any decisions that settle any plot points. It's suggested, but never followed through on. Celes and Relm fare no better, as their actions in the story (if present) are largely ineffectual.

I could go on. Women don't really do anything in the stories of FF, unless they're bad guys.

If you are a woman, a man, or either with a daughter who plays FF, I suggest you write to SE (snail mail) and complain...

I think this is kind of a festering thing in Japan right now. They've been shouting at their female senators "Get married!," arrested an artist for making a vagina-shaped kayak or something.

Women are kind of getting shafted in that country, really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I think this is kind of a festering thing in Japan right now. They've been shouting at their female senators "Get married!," arrested an artist for making a vagina-shaped kayak or something.

Women are kind of getting shafted in that country, really.

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Is there a country where they aren't, to one extent or another?

If there is, I'm going to guess it's somewhere in Scandinavia. They always seem to be a bit more socially enlightened.

I do think Final Fantasy has some of the better examples of women as main characters, when they put their mind to it. OK, the player avatar in FFX may have been Tidus, but as far as I'm concerned Yuna was the protagonist. Arguably the same with XII and Ashe. And yeah, for all the nonsense XIII pulled they did at least put some decent women with agency in the lead roles.

So they do know how to do it properly. They just have to remember to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Psychotic

I know I've posted Jimquisition in this thread earlier, but I'm on a massive binge watching every episode and god damn

[video]

Are men objectified in video games? Must watch viewing for anyone who has been interested by the issues raised in this thread. I particularly recommend it to Mr Loony BoB!

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This thread could've been a lot shorter if you'd posted that sooner, you monster.

That dude spreads out his argument very well, can tell a lot of research and editing went into perfectly articulating his argument. And he makes all valid points. The sexy male characters are just a nice side-effect of making sexy male characters that male gamers may want to be. Its never the intention for female gamers to oggle at

I like cidney. I'm a bit hrmpf with the boobage but at the point i'm tired of complaining about it.

Here we go again. No Cid was "sexified" until they decided to make a female Cid. Granted Square Enix is pretty notorious for sexifying their male characters too, but every other Cid was for the most part fully clothed. Why does this one have to be showing her breastses? Because she's a female Cid? Is it supposed to be okay because they made her mechanic? Give me a break Square. I'm quite tired of any form objectification in a character. I would love for just sophiscated characters who don't have to have a sex appeal to be interesting. I'd rather the most interesting thing about them be their skills and backstory.

Gone is a world of video games that don't feature men as beef cakes or bishounen with abs, and girls with huge boobs and mini skirts parading about. They make characters that don't even look like real people anymore. I wasn't going to buy this game, but now I am really not buying it. Their last few games have been pure suck anyway.

By the way we can see all of you rep, so stop with snarky rep comments AND the snarky posts.

EDIT: According to this thread I should be getting a breast reduction. Duly noted.

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Originally Posted by Shiny

EDIT: According to this thread I should be getting a breast reduction. Duly noted.

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I feel awkward being the one to tell you that you don't have big boobs. Where did you get the impression that our discussion would imply that you should get a breast reduction?

This seems to have taken an ugly turn.

smurf whoever is responsible.

Cidney's gonna bash your trout with her wrenches, dood

FFXV-II: Cidney Wrecks Your trout

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Originally Posted by Shlup

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Originally Posted by Shiny

EDIT: According to this thread I should be getting a breast reduction. Duly noted.

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I feel awkward being the one to tell you that you don't have big boobs. Where did you get the impression that our discussion would imply that you should get a breast reduction?

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That was actually a joke, I'm not getting a breast reduction although I agree with you that my boobs aren't big, or at least don't look it with clothes on. I don't really consider a D cup that I have big. I'm 5'1'' and 100lbs, but I'm pretty sure most of my back problems are slouching related. Also pretty sure that Tifa's boobs are probably more like a G not a D which I would imagine would definitely cause her back issues if she's only 120lbs. But more on the related topic of why Square is failing. :monster:

I don't get what the joke was, but it was about boobs to I'll laugh anyway.

We need more boob math in here.

I knew keeping up with this thread would pay off sooner or later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I don't get what the joke was, but it was about boobs to I'll laugh anyway.

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It's okay, you're blonde.

http://i.imgur.com/wnjdnD8.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

http://i.imgur.com/wnjdnD8.gif

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Congratulations, you've mesmerized my cat. He looks just like this cat but thinner, and he can't stop staring at this gif.

:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

How do you feel about this potential new Cid?

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>>> Was about damn time, and it only took them 15 FF games to realize this could be a good idea. SE, what a bunch of geniuses..:luca:

Apparently, Square Enix have included an Easter egg in FFXV where you can unlock a video of all the female characters performing Call on Me by Eric Prydz.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shiny

Here we go again. No Cid was "sexified" until they decided to make a female Cid. Granted Square Enix is pretty notorious for sexifying their male characters too, but every other Cid was for the most part fully clothed. Why does this one have to be showing her breastses? Because she's a female Cid? Is it supposed to be okay because they made her mechanic? Give me a break Square. I'm quite tired of any form objectification in a character. I would love for just sophiscated characters who don't have to have a sex appeal to be interesting. I'd rather the most interesting thing about them be their skills and backstory.

Gone is a world of video games that don't feature men as beef cakes or bishounen with abs, and girls with huge boobs and mini skirts parading about. They make characters that don't even look like real people anymore. I wasn't going to buy this game, but now I am really not buying it. Their last few games have been pure suck anyway.

By the way we can see all of you rep, so stop with snarky rep comments AND the snarky posts.

EDIT: According to this thread I should be getting a breast reduction. Duly noted.

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Yeah? Welcome to the 21st century. You should see what qualifies as a "model" now. (Male or female). You should watch a movie and pay attention to the main actors. Then watch ten more and see if you can place a pattern. Then, just for giggles, you should look at art work, and see what the general theme for people that are drawn or painted.

If you think it's just video games that are moving in this direction, then I don't really know what to tell you. If you're not getting FFXV because of that, then I'm sure nobody will care. Because frankly that reasoning is flawed and mind baffling. If you are not personally interested in the game, then by all means, ignore it blissfully. But to ignore it because of "sexifying" characters? Something that every media in every medium of entertainment in the modern era is also guilty of? I'm sorry but that is insane. You must hate a lot of games, music, art, and people in general.

Quote:

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You must hate a lot of games, music, art, and people in general.

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;)

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Originally Posted by Noctis Caelum

But to ignore it because of "sexifying" characters? Something that every media in every medium of entertainment in the modern era is also guilty of? I'm sorry but that is insane.

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So because sexist depictions of characters happen in all media, but not necessarily all works in any given form of media, it's insane to ignore the ones that do rely on sexist depictions of characters? Do you think by ignoring the sexist stuff it means there's no works in any form of media that one could still consume? Because that would actually be insane. Luckily that's not true.

The design is perfectly fine. I've seen women with more cleaveage IRL. Cidney having her mammaries hanging out isn't sexist. All that matters to me is how the character will be written. Hopefully, she'll be a relatively strong willed female character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

The design is perfectly fine. I've seen women with more cleaveage IRL. Cidney having her mammaries hanging out isn't sexist. All that matters to me is how the character will be written. Hopefully, she'll be a relatively strong willed female character.

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Well, I'm convinced.

I mean, how many of us have actually seen a womans in real life? So if you say it's totally normal for them to go to work every day in a low cut top and hot pants, what reason would I have to doubt you?

I saw some girls at a club or something wearing something like this so it's totally what female mechanics wear at work.

I'm going to start charging people a dollar every time they use the "I see hyper sexualized women all the time therefore this is okay" argument. It's my "get rich quick" scheme.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

The design is perfectly fine. I've seen women with more cleaveage IRL. Cidney having her mammaries hanging out isn't sexist. All that matters to me is how the character will be written. Hopefully, she'll be a relatively strong willed female character.

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I think the difference between whether the thing is sexist or not hinges on the fact that those women with super cleavage you know IRL chose to be that way. Cidney (I'm not calling her Cindy, smurf the lot of you if you even think about correcting me) was DESIGNED by men to look the way she does. And it wouldn't be a thing at all if past Cids, all of which have been male, had been sexualized. If there'd been even one clear example of it.

I do agree that one of the ways we could deal with this situation is to embrace the character's other traits that don't sexualize her and as an audience turn her into something positive, but that doesn't change the fact that the designers at SE made some pretty troutty decisions with the visual designs for this character which are so clearly sexist that I'm not sure why this is a debate at all. Anyone who doesn't see it without having to be told, isn't going to see it after being told. Because it's pretty smurfing blatant. I mean, really.

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Originally Posted by chionos

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

The design is perfectly fine. I've seen women with more cleaveage IRL. Cidney having her mammaries hanging out isn't sexist. All that matters to me is how the character will be written. Hopefully, she'll be a relatively strong willed female character.

---

I think the difference between whether the thing is sexist or not hinges on the fact that those women with super cleavage you know IRL chose to be that way. Cidney (I'm not calling her Cindy, smurf the lot of you if you even think about correcting me) was DESIGNED by men to look the way she does. And it wouldn't be a thing at all if past Cids, all of which have been male, had been sexualized. If there'd been even one clear example of it.

I do agree that one of the ways we could deal with this situation is to embrace the character's other traits that don't sexualize her and as an audience turn her into something positive, but that doesn't change the fact that the designers at SE made some pretty troutty decisions with the visual designs for this character which are so clearly sexist that I'm not sure why this is a debate at all. Anyone who doesn't see it without having to be told, isn't going to see it after being told. Because it's pretty smurfing blatant. I mean, really.

---

Her character design is better than most of the the things SE has crapped out, regardless of gender.

Also, the word sexist means pertaining, involving, or fostering sexism. Which this character design does none of. So no, it's not sexist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I'm going to start charging people a dollar every time they use the "I see hyper sexualized women all the time therefore this is okay" argument. It's my "get rich quick" scheme.

---

In what world does having cleavage equate to being hyper sexualized?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fox

Well, I'm convinced.

I mean, how many of us have actually seen a womans in real life?

---

Quite a many.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fox

So if you say it's totally normal for them to go to work every day in a low cut top and hot pants, what reason would I have to doubt you?

---

None.

It's like the whole last 11 pages is repeating itself.

Quote:

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In what world does having cleavage equate to being hyper sexualized?

---

This question has been answered at least four times.

I mean, I don't expect you to have read this entire thread or anything. I'm just saying don't hold it against me for not repeating what's already been said over and over.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shlup

It's like the whole last 11 pages is repeating itself.

Quote:

---

In what world does having cleavage equate to being hyper sexualized?

---

This question has been answered at least four times.

I mean, I don't expect you to have read this entire thread or anything.

---

I already have.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I'm just saying don't hold it against me for not repeating what's already been said over and over.

---

A satisfactory answer has yet to be given. Playing mental gymnastics about what is or isn't sexualisation in men vs women is hardly a proper argument or reason. Also, sexualisation isn't a bad thing to begin with. Nor is objectification.

I'm actually going to do it.

For the first time in a long timer I am going to channel my Inner-Hux and Inner-Freed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

Her character design is better than most of the the things SE has crapped out

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Please provide examples of what you consider to be bad character design in numbered FF games post-VI and state why they are bad.

Quote:

---

Also, the word sexist means pertaining, involving, or fostering sexism. Which this character design does none of. So no, it's not sexist.

---

Good job the primary criticism here is that the design is hypersexualised and how they're disappointed that SQEX have done this.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shlup

I'm going to start charging people a dollar every time they use the "I see hyper sexualized women all the time therefore this is okay" argument. It's my "get rich quick" scheme.

---

In what world does having cleavage equate to being hyper sexualized?

---

It's not just the cleavage people are criticising.

http://glynnorman.com/wp-content/upl...-the-point.png

I typed out a pretty long explanation in this post. If you can't figure out how there's anything remotely suggestive within the first 50 seconds of that video, then I guess this discussion would be about as productive as trying to knock down a building with my own forehead.

Although as an ammendum to that post let me add:

Attachment 61732
Attachment 61733
Attachment 61734
Attachment 61735
Attachment 61736
Attachment 61737
Attachment 61738

Although, next you'll be telling us you walk around everyday looking like this. Because it's appropriate day to day wear, just like Cidney's outfit is what you'd expect a mechanic to be wearing, right?

As a funny aside...

Attachment 61739

Hammer Head Full Service Station?

Attachment 61740

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

A satisfactory answer has yet to be given. Playing mental gymnastics about what is or isn't sexualisation in men vs women is hardly a proper argument or reason. Also, sexualisation isn't a bad thing to begin with. Nor is objectification.

---

Well by that line of thought. You've yet to state satisfactory reasoning about why you feel the way you do, other than throwing around generalised statements and semantics in a thread that is ultimately perception based.

So out of curiosity, what constitutes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

a proper argument or reason

---

?

Did you really read the whole thing? Because I literally said "sexualisation isn't a bad thing to begin with. Nor is objectification" almost exactly in those words at least twice. And multiple people have described what it is about Cidney that makes her hyper sexualized beyond just cleavage. I really wouldn't blame you if you didn't read all those pages and long posts, but to just come in and say "nope, wrong" without offering any substance to your rebuttal makes it hard to give you much credit. Which I honestly would like to be able to give you if you have points to make.

It seems like you disagree with me (and others) about 1) what hyper sexualization is, 2) when sexualization is good or bad, 3) when objectification is good or bad, and 4) the sexualization on men versus women. Perhaps you could offer some definitions, sources, examples to support your points...?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

Although, next you'll be telling us you walk around everyday looking like this. Because it's appropriate day to day wear, just like Cidney's outfit is what you'd expect a mechanic to be wearing, right?

---

I never said any of that. But hey, nice espantajo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

Well by that line of thought. You've yet to state satisfactory reasoning about why you feel the way you do, other than throwing around generalised statements and semantics in a thread that is ultimately perception based.

---

The reason I don't feel objectification or sexualization are wrong is because they are perfectly natural, occur on a daily basis, and are not proven to cause harm. Hence why I am confused as to why everyone is already in agreement that they are wrong.

*snip* EDIT BY BoB: Refrain from posting stuff like this.

A fantasy based on reality is still fantasy. Many of the things contained within will be idealized or exaggerated in some form or another. Perhaps those ideals and ideas aren't your thing. But they seem to be the character designer's thing. And there is nothing wrong with that. You have yet to prove there is. And I don't have to prove there isn't, because I don't have to prove a negative.

Please avoid any personal argument in this thread, everyone. Stick to the debating the details, not each other. I've found this thread to be really insightful and helpful personally, and for the most part there has been little personal attack or much close to it, and I'd like to keep it that way. This is a thread and discussion worthy of healthy debate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loony BoB

Please avoid any personal argument in this thread, everyone. Stick to the debating the details, not each other. I've found this thread to be really insightful and helpful personally, and for the most part there has been little personal attack or much close to it, and I'd like to keep it that way. This is a thread and discussion worthy of healthy debate.

---

Got it. I'll dial it back a bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

espantajo

---

I had to look that up. I'm stealing it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

The reason I don't feel objectification or sexualization are wrong is because they are perfectly natural, occur on a daily basis, and are not proven to cause harm. Hence why I am confused as to why everyone is already in agreement that they are wrong.

---

Seeing you say this after I've addressed it with paragraphs on paragraphs, video posts, and links to scholarly articles makes me just literally like
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ls274fLyzV1qms4wo.gif.

I will repeat a few, and I will give you more.

If you want a summary that's easy to digest, Laci Green breaks it down in her video here, which I posted a few pages ago. You can dismiss each of her examples as "untrue" or "insignificant," but they are easily verifiable and if you give me specific ones I will even look those up for you if you want to see the evidence supporting them.

Also several pages ago, I posted eight links describing ways that objectification causes harm. Here is the list:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

http://www.apa.org/education/ce/sexu...tification.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10....199-006-9147-3
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5708921.html
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.230...21105504405683
http://pwq.sagepub.com/content/38/3/398.abstract
https://news.wsu.edu/2014/05/27/stud...s/#.VJoFM_8B_d
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/07/...fied-by-women/
http://www.alternet.org/story/146396...ou_might_think

---

I looked up some new ones for you:
This article sums up six studies.
A Test Of Objectification Theory: The Effect Of The Male Gaze On Appearance Concerns In College Women
Objectifying Sarah Palin: Evidence that objectification causes women to be perceived as less competent and less fully human
A MEDIATIONAL MODEL LINKING SELF-OBJECTIFICATION, BODY SHAME, AND DISORDERED EATING
MEDIA CONTRIBUTIONS TO AFRICAN AMERICAN GIRLS' FOCUS ON BEAUTY AND APPEARANCE: EXPLORING THE CONSEQUENCES OF SEXUAL OBJECTIFICATION

I can find more if you want. I wasn't sure how much effort to put into this because I'm not sure how much you care. Can you show me anything that refutes my evidence or supports your notion that objectification is neutral?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

espantajo

---

I had to look that up. I'm stealing it.

---

Uh, you're welcome?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I can find more if you want. I wasn't sure how much effort to put into this because I'm not sure how much you care. Can you show me anything that refutes my evidence or supports your notion that objectification is neutral?

---

No, those sources are compelling enough.

I appreciate that. Thank you. Is there anything else I can clarify for you, or anything you'd like to clarify for me? I'm unclear as to what "hyper sexualized" means to you if Cidney isn't it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

I appreciate that. Thank you. Is there anything else I can clarify for you, or anything you'd like to clarify for me? I'm unclear as to what "hyper sexualized" means to you if Cidney isn't it.

---

No prob.

I just don't think she's hyper sexualized. The problem with using the term "hyper sexualized" is that the word "hyper" denotes a certain amount of relativity, kinda like saying the words "more" or "less" it brings up the question of as opposed to what. In this case, opposed to a buttload of other characters like Bayonetta, or Tifa, or any girl from DOA. She may be incredibly sexualized, but she's not hyper sexualized, if that makes any sense.

That's fair. I think it's weird that you think she's less sexualized than Tifa, but you're right that it's subjective.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shlup

That's fair. I think it's weird that you think she's less sexualized than Tifa, but you're right that it's subjective.

---

Pffft. Nah, I was just using Tifa as a comparison. Tifa is loads less sexualized. I just couldn't come up with another FF heroine off the top of my head. Kuja

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

Although, next you'll be telling us you walk around everyday looking like this. Because it's appropriate day to day wear, just like Cidney's outfit is what you'd expect a mechanic to be wearing, right?

---

I never said any of that. But hey, nice espantajo.

---

Well:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CAST VOX

The design is perfectly fine. I've seen women with more cleaveage IRL. Cidney having her mammaries hanging out isn't sexist. All that matters to me is how the character will be written. Hopefully, she'll be a relatively strong willed female character.

---

Considering the bulk of the discussion in this thread is about how her clothing isn't really appropriate for her role, I guess one could be forgiven for understanding your original post as saying such attire was fine?

I'd like to point out that you guys are in your third week of impotent debate about this subject.

We, as Final Fantasy players, are so desensitized to sexually explicit costuming that I doubt anyone on this board actually cares enough about equal representation of the sexes to do anything about this.

Has anyone even tried contacting Square Enix? I hope so, but I doubt it.

If you ever hope someone has done something on behalf of you, yet you haven't done it yourself... :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I'd like to point out that you guys are in your third week of impotent debate about this subject.

We, as Final Fantasy players, are so desensitized to sexually explicit costuming that I doubt anyone on this board actually cares enough about equal representation of the sexes to do anything about this.

Has anyone even tried contacting Square Enix? I hope so, but I doubt it.

---

The problem with contacting SE is that you have to know japanese. Also, it took them until the success of Bravely Default to realize they had been ignoring an entire section of their consumers.

They are also Japanese. They live in the same country where women need a separate subway due to a groping/blackmail case. And where upskirts and pantyshots are common occurence in media. And where women are ugly after the age of 25.

Also, Japanese developers tend to follow mini-traditions in their developement of games. Ever wondered why Dark Souls 1 and 2 had so many similar themes and events to the old King's Field series? Or why most FF games have giant chickens that came from a long forgotten entry in the series? It's not laziness, they just do what's been done before while adding a small new thing every now and then.

They probably aren't going to take your advice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CAST VOX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aulayna

Although, next you'll be telling us you walk around everyday looking like this. Because it's appropriate day to day wear, just like Cidney's outfit is what you'd expect a mechanic to be wearing, right?

---

I never said any of that. But hey, nice espantajo.

---

Well:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CAST VOX

The design is perfectly fine. I've seen women with more cleaveage IRL. Cidney having her mammaries hanging out isn't sexist. All that matters to me is how the character will be written. Hopefully, she'll be a relatively strong willed female character.

---

Considering the bulk of the discussion in this thread is about how her clothing isn't really appropriate for her role, I guess one could be forgiven for understanding your original post as saying such attire was fine?

---

My intention in that original post wasn't that her design was fine for the role of a mechanic (it clearly isn't). Just that it was fine overall. I've seen worse, so I didn't react as negatively as you. I also never said it was appropriate day wear. Hence, the espantajo.

I get your point, but I think Kings Field was made by the same company, as well as a PS2 game that had a feudal Japanese theme where you're a demon hunter that played exactly like Dark Souls, and also made by the same company. Demon Souls and Dark Souls is just where it hit mainstream. It doesn't seems surprising that a company would build upon what they've established in the past. But they are indeed obsessed with traditions and the use of tropes more than being progressive, imaginative, or inventive sometimes... possibly most of the time. Especially with their panty shots and underage moe sex goddesses

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyk

I get your point, but I think Kings Field was made by the same company

---

They are, that was my point. They allude to things they themselves have done before. The development teams have their own little traditions they follow when making a game. The games evolve slowly over time, rather than changing greatly in a single sequel. Megaman X is another good example; in every single game, the first boss is absolutely huge, but goes down like a house of cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vyk

But they are indeed obsessed with traditions and the use of tropes more than being progressive, imaginative, or inventive sometimes... possibly most of the time. Especially with their panty shots and underage moe sex goddesses

---

Japan and progressiveness are rather funny. It's not that Japan isn't progressing, it's just that they're progressing slowly. Japan is currently marching to the beat of its own drum. They always have. Progress seems to come in fits and spurts for them, rather than a steady stream. Things will change, they just take time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

I'd like to point out that you guys are in your third week of impotent debate about this subject.

We, as Final Fantasy players, are so desensitized to sexually explicit costuming that I doubt anyone on this board actually cares enough about equal representation of the sexes to do anything about this.

Has anyone even tried contacting Square Enix? I hope so, but I doubt it.

---

Your doubt is misplaced then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shlup

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spooniest

I'd like to point out that you guys are in your third week of impotent debate about this subject.

We, as Final Fantasy players, are so desensitized to sexually explicit costuming that I doubt anyone on this board actually cares enough about equal representation of the sexes to do anything about this.

Has anyone even tried contacting Square Enix? I hope so, but I doubt it.

---

Your doubt is misplaced then.

---

You emailed them?

Outside of that, it has also been noted that some small minority of goons do take note of the goings on inside this and many other Square-Enix-themed forums and webpages. A riot that happens here, especially if its also happening on those, will be noticed. And if it's that large scale, it might even be noticed a little farther up the chain. I imagine it would take something pretty wide-spread to make it to the top, but bitching on a forum is not fruitless. Much to the tune of the Jimquisition video Psychotic posted. Buying a game and having a hissy fit about it means bad press and PR that no company really wants. Having a hissy fit before its even released could actually change things

Several people have written letters. Mine was illustrated in an attempt to be specific and helpful rather than damning. I do hate the notion that "Americans are obsessed with being politically correct" but, like, c'mon... Cids are supposed to be cool! Why'd they have to make her a sex doll? Why? :(

Shlup, what's their address?

Here is a USPS postage calculation for sending a letter to Japan.

(Don't worry, everyone in Japan speaks English)

$5.10 it says.

So there, BoB, I did something. :)

http://www.jp.square-enix.com/company/en/locations/

That shows the address and telephone number of all their main headquarters.

So the only thing left to decide is what message you want to send.

Keep it short and simple, and make sure you tell them:

* You dislike Cidney's costume.

* You would like them to change it.

* That you are thankful for their time.

It can contain anything else you want that doesn't contradict those three points.

Flood 'em with letters and they'll put a T-shirt on her, I guarantee you. If you were willing to spend 5.10 on a letter to complain, that'll prick their ears up.

Edit: Fridge Logic time...I just realized that $5.10 is startlingly close to 500 gil in FF6, which is how much it costs to send a letter from Mobliz to Maranda. :| Weird.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

So the only thing left to decide is what message you want to send.

Keep it short and simple, and make sure you tell them:

* You dislike Cidney's costume.

* You would like them to change it.

* That you are thankful for their time.

It can contain anything else you want that doesn't contradict those three points.

Flood 'em with letters and they'll put a T-shirt on her, I guarantee you. If you were willing to spend 5.10 on a letter to complain, that'll prick their ears up.

Edit: Fridge Logic time...I just realized that $5.10 is startlingly close to 500 gil in FF6, which is how much it costs to send a letter from Mobliz to Maranda. :| Weird.

---

Not that I'm against people mailing SE to complain, but no, it won't mean a t-shirt for Cidney. That's just silly.

It might, however, influence the designers' thinking during future game development. And that'll have to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chionos

Not that I'm against people mailing SE to complain, but no, it won't mean a t-shirt for Cidney. That's just silly.

---

You're only saying that because it's never been tried before.

Defeatist attitudes don't change costumes in the name of human dignity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chionos

Not that I'm against people mailing SE to complain, but no, it won't mean a t-shirt for Cidney. That's just silly.

---

You're only saying that because it's never been tried before.

Defeatist attitudes don't change costumes in the name of human dignity.

---

Now I can't tell if you're just being a smartass or not. If you're not, forgive me.

Such things have been tried before actually, and it's not that protests cannot create change, it's just not feasible in this case. The problem is that it's just not practical enough. They're not going to spend thousands of dollars to go back and make such changes. Perhaps if SE didn't realize what they were doing. Perhaps if the feedback were any indication that they were wrong in their thinking that a dolled up Cid would get the attention of some guys and create a lot of hype. But they weren't wrong. They knew what they were doing. What they wanted was attention, not acceptance, and attention is what they got. Controversy equals money sometimes (see: The Interview), and that's what we got here, and in the end that's all that really matters to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chionos

Controversy equals money sometimes (see: The Interview), and that's what we got here, and in the end that's all that really matters to them.

---

You have made that value judgement against them without bothering to attempt communicating with them. That's all I'm saying.

Edit: And this is the real twist...you are working from a stereotype of a video game company employee when making that judgement.

:) I think it's time to end discrimination against video game makers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chionos

Not that I'm against people mailing SE to complain, but no, it won't mean a t-shirt for Cidney. That's just silly.

---

You're only saying that because it's never been tried before.

Defeatist attitudes don't change costumes in the name of human dignity.

---

It isn't gonna happen. Maybe with FFXV-2. Too far into the development cycle atm. The demo is only a few months away.

Plus even if they did change it now, I'd be willing to bet the backlash of them changing their original vision for the character would be worse then the few complaints they're getting now!

Despite the size of this thread there really hasn't been much widespread outrage in the gaming community. If they were to change her outfit now it would be all over the front of every gaming site you can think of. Then they have a major PR problem.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyson

If they were to change her outfit now it would be all over the front of every gaming site you can think of. Then they have a major PR problem.

---

For listening to their fans when they want something small changed?

That sounds like a PR nightmare, yeah. :monster:

Sorry guys, but I'm hearing excuse after excuse, and little concrete reasoning as to why this idea doesn't work. Surely 5 bucks and a dime isn't that important to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyson

If they were to change her outfit now it would be all over the front of every gaming site you can think of. Then they have a major PR problem.

---

For listening to their fans when they want something small changed?

That sounds like a PR nightmare, yeah. :monster:

---

If 100% of their fans felt exactly like you do that would be fine. It's a minority tho. Alot of people would be mad at them for compromising their vision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyson

If 100% of their fans felt exactly like you do that would be fine. It's a minority tho. Alot of people would be mad at them for compromising their vision.

---

*snip*

For the record, I am largely unconcerned with the outcome. I think the super cleavage is offensive, but I won't be mad if it isn't changed. I'm more concerned with the state of SE's relationship with their fanbase. Shlup is the only one so far that has bothered to attempt communication with them. The rest of you are so cynical (likely from reading too much internet) that you want to throw the idea in the garbage can before it's even been tried.

When has a large-scale letter-writing campaign been tried with SE? When? Where? Who did it?

Answer me these questions three, and I'll concede your point.

Please don't be insulting to people. ~Scotty

Actually, Spooniest, I'm "cynical" because I'm a realist. Sometimes a stereotype isn't a stereotype, it's an INSIGHT. I've communicated with SE before, so it's not just a blind judgment. Also, I've watched the videos of whatshisface introducing the trailers and such, and it's pretty clear from his statements, his body language, the changes in pitch in the dude's voice, etc., that he knew exactly what the audience was thinking, both the positives and negatives. SE wanted this, so it would be utterly counter-intuitive for them to go back and change anything about the character now.

The problem is, also, not that the character is the way she is. It's too late to change the fact that they designed her this way. The problem isn't the character, the problem is the development team making the decision they made with one of Final Fantasy's ubiquitous characters. Cidney is merely external evidence of an internal problem, one which isn't going to be changed by a letter-writing campaign, because it's something that would require a change of heart in the human beings who work for SE. How do you make people see what they don't want to see? Letters? I'm sorry, my friend, life doesn't work that way. I wish it did.

This sounds like a lot of excuses not to spend $5.10 and the time it takes to properly write and address a letter to me.

I'm sorry you are such a realist. That must be very boring.

I become a realist when I go outside, to work, to the store, etc. When I'm home I don't give a crap about the real world.

Lol, wth are you even saying anymore? Do you have a number fetish? Is it 5.10?

I have to give you credit, you're a subtle troll, sir.


In any case, nobody's stopping you, Spoony.






So anyway, I'm looking forward, really, to seeing what the character is in the game. Will her personality match her attire? Will she be a ditzy flirt. I know she's not a story-driven npc, but she doesn't have to be to have a personality. I wonder if there's any fanart flying around yet that has her dressed more appropriately for her job. Going to look now.

EDIT:
Found this almost instantly. See, now this is still somewhat provocative and fun while being more practical and less ludicrous.
Attachment 61774

See this is how you beat SE at their own game. Reinvent the character.
http://40.media.tumblr.com/6daef563d...wzhbo1_500.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tyson

If they were to change her outfit now it would be all over the front of every gaming site you can think of. Then they have a major PR problem.

---

For listening to their fans when they want something small changed?

That sounds like a PR nightmare, yeah. :monster:

Sorry guys, but I'm hearing excuse after excuse, and little concrete reasoning as to why this idea doesn't work. Surely 5 bucks and a dime isn't that important to you.

---

I hope that you're going to be heading this letter campaign with your own well thought out response, Spooniest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chionos

Lol, wth are you even saying anymore? Do you have a number fetish? Is it 5.10?

I have to give you credit, you're a subtle troll, sir.

---

How in hell does being overly optimistic make Spoony a troll?

This google image search has me thinking a few things.

Cidney makes direct eye contact with people. She has close-ups. She is pleasant, but not terribly goofy or silly. She seems kind of cool, like you'd expect a person who shoes horses in a Western setting to be. Or like a blacksmith.

She's holding that wrench up and getting pretty excited about it. She really seems to have a thing for building stuff.

I'd really kind of appreciate it if they made Cidney the most intelligent person in this world. Like, she can fix and build any goddamn thing you could want or ask for.

:/ That would make up for a lot of boobage, I think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

This google image search has me thinking a few things.

Cidney makes direct eye contact with people. She has close-ups. She is pleasant, but not terribly goofy or silly. She seems kind of cool, like you'd expect a person who shoes horses in a Western setting to be. Or like a blacksmith.

She's holding that wrench up and getting pretty excited about it. She really seems to have a thing for building stuff.

I'd really kind of appreciate it if they made Cidney the most intelligent person in this world. Like, she can fix and build any goddamn thing you could want or ask for.

:/ That would make up for a lot of boobage, I think.

---

She'll probably be some sort of genius, or at least a great mechanic. They'll probably screw it up by making her a ditz or something.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

This google image search has me thinking a few things.

Cidney makes direct eye contact with people. She has close-ups. She is pleasant, but not terribly goofy or silly. She seems kind of cool, like you'd expect a person who shoes horses in a Western setting to be. Or like a blacksmith.

She's holding that wrench up and getting pretty excited about it. She really seems to have a thing for building stuff.

I'd really kind of appreciate it if they made Cidney the most intelligent person in this world. Like, she can fix and build any goddamn thing you could want or ask for.

:/ That would make up for a lot of boobage, I think.

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She'll probably be some sort of genius, or at least a great mechanic. They'll probably screw it up by making her a ditz or something.

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I hope they don't. I could see her being naive though, kind of like Kaylee from Firefly. Not ditzy, but kind of spacy because she's so obsessed with her machines and such. That would work fine for me.

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Originally Posted by chionos

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

This google image search has me thinking a few things.

Cidney makes direct eye contact with people. She has close-ups. She is pleasant, but not terribly goofy or silly. She seems kind of cool, like you'd expect a person who shoes horses in a Western setting to be. Or like a blacksmith.

She's holding that wrench up and getting pretty excited about it. She really seems to have a thing for building stuff.

I'd really kind of appreciate it if they made Cidney the most intelligent person in this world. Like, she can fix and build any goddamn thing you could want or ask for.

:/ That would make up for a lot of boobage, I think.

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She'll probably be some sort of genius, or at least a great mechanic. They'll probably screw it up by making her a ditz or something.

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I hope they don't. I could see her being naive though, kind of like Kaylee from Firefly. Not ditzy, but kind of spacy because she's so obsessed with her machines and such. That would work fine for me.

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That would be nice. Characters that are obsessed with one particular thing can actually be very interesting.

But they'll probably just make her Vanille/Rikku with gadgets.

I don't get a ditzy vibe from her. She's intent on something, very focused, but not in an overtly hot-blooded way. She is capable of smiling, though. I think the look on her face says, "I'm not impressed with [the object of this imaginary sentence]."

For what it's worth, I think making her occasionally ditzy isn't a problem - look at some of the previous Cids (FFV being the best example) and you'll find they can be bumbling on occasion. The things they generally are first and foremost related to any airships in the game and being competent with machinery. After that I find the characteristics you might think they are associated with probably aren't a complete match to a number of the Cids. Even being competent with machinery isn't something I immediately associate with Cid in VIII or XIII. The Cids really are quite varying.

Personally, from what little we've seen of her, I think she'll be set up just fine. She comes across as a rather quirky, intelligent and capable person, capable of standing up for herself and perhaps even runs her own business. Hard to say for sure though, we'll just have to wait and see.

Now, I understand "cheated angles" in camera/acting work. It's to show the front of the person while allowing them to talk to someone standing to their side. It shows up in these screens, too, with her talking to the buff dude in the open shirt.

She's not looking directly at him. She's kind of looking sideways at him, if at all. She might be turning around? But maybe not.

That seems kind of...how do you characterize it...

She seems like she works really hard or something, and stays up late a lot.

Definitely like a FFIV-Cid-esque vibe here. Esp with the goggles.

(let's hope the goggles do something)

Edit: I forgot to mention it, but Cidney's hair looks like she combed it with a balloon.

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

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Originally Posted by chionos

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Originally Posted by CAST VOX

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Originally Posted by Spooniest

This google image search has me thinking a few things.

Cidney makes direct eye contact with people. She has close-ups. She is pleasant, but not terribly goofy or silly. She seems kind of cool, like you'd expect a person who shoes horses in a Western setting to be. Or like a blacksmith.

She's holding that wrench up and getting pretty excited about it. She really seems to have a thing for building stuff.

I'd really kind of appreciate it if they made Cidney the most intelligent person in this world. Like, she can fix and build any goddamn thing you could want or ask for.

:/ That would make up for a lot of boobage, I think.

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She'll probably be some sort of genius, or at least a great mechanic. They'll probably screw it up by making her a ditz or something.

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I hope they don't. I could see her being naive though, kind of like Kaylee from Firefly. Not ditzy, but kind of spacy because she's so obsessed with her machines and such. That would work fine for me.

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That would be nice. Characters that are obsessed with one particular thing can actually be very interesting.

But they'll probably just make her Vanille/Rikku with gadgets.

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I'm definitely getting a big Rikku vibe from her. Wouldn't be surprised if they're almost identical. May just be because of the mechanical skills and dress sense tho , haha.

I dunno...Rikku wears a lot of pink, and she has the emotional range of a teaspoon.

Cidney seems like she doesn't go in for any of that trout to me. She's got a workbench full of trout to fix, so why are you wasting her time by being a huge dumbass who doesn't even know how to build one electrical circuit, for goodness' sake?

I doubt they'd do this, but it would be interesting if they gave her Cid Highwind's potty mouth and abusive personality. :D Though obviously, women in Asia are strongly discouraged from smoking. Or so I heard from an Indian (SE Asian) once.

I don't expect them to change anything, and stated as much in my letter to them. I simply made my disappointment in the outfit known and stated my reasons in the politest and most respectful manner that I could and informed them I won't be buying the game because of it. And before someone even say it, yes, I was one of the few on here that never cared for the game to begin with, but eventually, just like FFXIII, I would have bought the game for review purposes, but not now, and I would feel this way regardless of who the developers were, and what the game was.

Beyond sending my own letter, yelling about doing it in this forum and providing the link to the postage calculator, there is little more I can do at this time to promote this.

Really, the only plausible way for this to go is for someone (hopefully with me on board as the scriptwriter lol) to found a videogame company dedicated to hammering on these niches that SE refuses to acknowledge.

It's not a social justice thing, it's a storytelling quality thing. Change up the gender roles, keep people guessing. It's just another trope to play with.

Someone will found this company one day, or may have founded it already.

Their motto would be "Art is the weapon with which bad ideas are destroyed."

I think perhaps I should write them something as well. Not sure what would be the best place to send it, though.

Straight to the Tokyo HQ.

Do they actually read english letters there?

English is offered as early as what would be 8th grade in Japan. Has been for years. It's a prerequisite in their schools for a lot of business courses, I'd wager.

English is the language of business around the world.

As early as the 8th grade? That's... really late. I never doubted that there were people at the SE headquarters that would understand english, though.

In either case, even if you start in 3rd grade like you do in a lot of other countries, it's not the time spent in english classes in school that makes you good at the language, it's how much you use it after you're done with your classes.

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Originally Posted by Mirage

As early as the 8th grade? That's... really late. I never doubted that there were people at the SE headquarters that would understand english, though.

In either case, even if you start in 3rd grade like you do in a lot of other countries, it's not the time spent in english classes in school that makes you good at the language, it's how much you use it after you're done with your classes.

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The only point I can possibly make based on my knowledge is that there's no excuse for a Japanese person who has gone to school for any length of time to not know English. It's being offered to them, possibly much earlier than I last read about.

Dear Sirs,

I am writing to object in the strongest possible terms to the idea of a female mechanic wearing such provocative clothing. I myself have worked as a mechanic for quite a number of years now and the females who choose this profession are governed by the same laws of physics as any other mechanic, requiring copious amounts of protective clothing under the law of my country of residence.

I am no longer willing to financially support a producer of interactive entertainment that is willing to put forth such tripe and call it a AAA release.

Sincere thanks for your time and consideration,
Spooniest

I don't think it matters which headquarters you send it to. They're all under the same banner anyway. I went ahead and sent mine to the NA corporate headquarters. Whichever one is closest to you should work.

As a tip, hand-written letters are considerably more likely to reach their destination. If you hand-write your letter and send it to the producer, there's every possibility it will indeed reach the producer or the producer's PA. I've seen instances of SE responding to hand-written letters before, notably the producer/director of FFXIV who made an open letter as a reply to one of them during FFXIV 1.x. Can't remember if it was Yoshi-P or the other guy.

For what it's worth...

https://angelwitchpaganheart.wordpre...-off-my-chest/

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

For what it's worth...

https://angelwitchpaganheart.wordpre...-off-my-chest/

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It is my opinion that assuming that big breasted characters are incapable of having any personality and reducing them to ‘smurf toys’ is, in itself, sexist and demeaning. It assumes that breast size and sexiness are the only things that the player notices or cares about in regard to female characters. Even worse is the assumption that this will make gamers sexist towards women in real life, a presumption that I find deeply patronising and insulting as a gamer. This morality policing of gaming has gotten out of hand. The vast majority of gamers are adults, let us decide for ourselves what we find acceptable. If more body types in gaming is what you want then stick to that instead of yet again promoting one kind of woman at the expense of another. Busty women are gamers too, some of us want to continue to see characters that look like us, deal with it.

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Repeatedly in her article she mentions about how she wants more body types represented. Earlier in her article she writes that women's sizes have increased to a number of things, obesity being one of them. I cannot understand how she in good conscience can tout, "We want more body types!" while ignoring the fact that a multitude of body types are in fact not being represented, and that instead there is a specific body characteristic being represented here with female characters sporting large breasts. I do not see her advocating for more body types. I see her advocating for female characters to keep their large breasts.

And this little gem:

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If more body types in gaming is what you want then stick to that instead of yet again promoting one kind of woman at the expense of another.

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Her mentality does not promote more body types. It promotes one kind of woman who is typecast among a majority of video games featuring breasts too large for their proportions, aka the Sex Toy model from below. If this writer was in favor of more varied body types, she should be promoting body types like these, most of which are more realistic and less fetishized:

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/i/20...21-d3cee0g.jpg

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Even worse is the assumption that this will make gamers sexist towards women in real life, a presumption that I find deeply patronising and insulting as a gamer.

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It is offensive to me that she can blurt out this sentence on a blog titled "Thoughts of a Feminist Gamer". No.

Anyone who thinks that more body types means "fat girls" and "flat girls"... just... what. Sarah's list is just a sampling of how many body types there are for girls out there. Almost all of those are still emphasised hourglass figures, while most women I know don't match that, particularly athletic ones. People just need to look up "family portrait" on image search. So many types.

I can agree with a general sentiment that "omg this girl has a pinup body type that is so sexist" or "omg this girl has big boobs that is so sexist" can be bad to an extent in that such girls do exist and we shouldn't attack developers or call them "unrealistic" just for appearing in video games. However, they should appear alongside other females of all kinds of body types. Guys, too. Some games are pretty good at this, however a lot of them are not.

Ideally, unless a character is in a role where fitness is relevant, characters should be reasonably well represented across the spectrum, and I think everyone here can agree that doesn't happen.

Omg at the Kate Moss :lol: that's terrible

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Originally Posted by Shorty

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Even worse is the assumption that this will make gamers sexist towards women in real life, a presumption that I find deeply patronising and insulting as a gamer.

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It is offensive to me that she can blurt out this sentence on a blog titled "Thoughts of a Feminist Gamer". No.

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Why is that offensive? You think people don't know the difference between the real world and a video game?

I guess I feel that FF's don't need to give "reasonable" representations of people. I haven't seen many fat, old, or bald male protagonists and I'm not bothered by that. Many of the characters in FF have idealized figures, male and female, which i'm fine with. I believe games are the appropriate medium for these things, Final Fantasy in particular.

Final Fantasy is not some magazine with photoshopped images of "real" women that give girls false or misleading expectations of what a womans figure should be(which is a pretty horrible thing) . People are aware that games are just games. I haven't seen any evidence that VG's change people's behavior to real word people.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

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Originally Posted by Shorty

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Even worse is the assumption that this will make gamers sexist towards women in real life, a presumption that I find deeply patronising and insulting as a gamer.

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It is offensive to me that she can blurt out this sentence on a blog titled "Thoughts of a Feminist Gamer". No.

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Why is that offensive? You think people don't know the difference between the real world and a video game?

I guess I feel that FF's don't need to give "reasonable" representations of people. I haven't seen many fat, old, or bald male protagonists and I'm not bothered by that. Many of the characters in FF have idealized figures, male and female, which i'm fine with. I believe games are the appropriate medium for these things, Final Fantasy in particular.

Final Fantasy is not some magazine with photoshopped images of "real" women that give girls false or misleading expectations of what a womans figure should be(which is a pretty horrible thing) . People are aware that games are just games. I haven't seen any evidence that VG's change people's behavior to real word people.

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Some people know the difference between real world and a video game. Some people are aware that games are just games.

However, I believe that the nastiness of GG spreading through the internet like wildfire is a product of men believing that women are objects to be used and abused as they so desire, which is what the female character stereotypes reinforce when their visuals represented in order to appeal to men's tastes and fantasies.

This behavior is not limited to the internet. Additionally, is represented just the same with photoshopped women in magazines, surgically-altered women in porn and so on vs. The Real Female Population.

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I haven't seen any evidence that VG's change people's behavior to real word people.

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Okay, let's use the well-worn example of Anita Sarkeesian.

Anita begins a blog called Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, which examined tropes that she believes reinforce damaging stereotypes about women. Essentially, this is a movement to break away from the female character stereotypes that we all know too well.

She is attacked because of this. She is attacked because men want those female characters to remain the same; they want their games to remain untouched. She becomes a victim of death and rape threats, her webpages and social media are hacked, her article on Wikipedia is vandalized, among a slew of slander and additional threats of all sorts online in comments and Twitter and the like. One attacker created a computer game that allowed players to beat and bloody an image of her. She was forced to vacate her home due to the threats she received, and just recently had to abandon a conference at the University of Utah due to threats of gun violence.

All of these behaviors are examples of peoples' real life behaviors. They are behaviors caused by video games.

This is one case among many where females are harassed, threatened, and whose lives are otherwise endangered because they seek to change the female body, character and role stereotypes in games.

So for you to say "I haven't seen any evidence that VG's change people's behavior to real word people", I have to ask, are you paying attention?

First, the vast majority of people know the difference between VG's and reality, not just "some". Give our species a lil more credit than that plz.

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I believe that the nastiness of GG spreading through the internet like wildfire is a product of men believing that women are objects to be used and abused as they so desire

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Those folks who attack Anita do not represent all men, not even close.

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They are behaviors caused by video games

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Conjecture, at best. You can't possibly say that they only able to do so because they played video games... Video Games are not responsible for those individuals behavior. GTA V has sold 35 million copies but hasnt change they way ppl function in the real word, to the best of my knowledge(and multiple article's chronicling the decrease of all forms of violence over the past 20 yrs in correlation to increased gaming.) Here's an interesting aticle about how "bad" vg behavior may change us tho.

If they weren't hacking her, they were gonna be hacking someone else. Their criminals, thats all. They don't represent an entire gender.

Now, back to FF. Why is it wrong for Cidney to be visually appealing to men? Many of the men is this game have idealized figures, and are appealing to women. Thats doesn't automatically make them a "sexualized trope". Frankly tho, I believe sexualizing characters is a normal thing humans do. I also don't believe women are "damaged" by these characters either. I give the female gender the credit deserved. Most women are very capable of seeing a game for what it is.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

First, the vast majority of people know the difference between VG's and reality, not just "some". Give our species a lil more credit than that plz.

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I believe that the nastiness of GG spreading through the internet like wildfire is a product of men believing that women are objects to be used and abused as they so desire

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Those folks who attack Anita do not represent all men, not even close.

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They are behaviors caused by video games

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Conjecture, at best. You can't possibly say that they only able to do so because they played video games... Video Games are not responsible for those individuals behavior. GTA V has sold 35 million copies but hasnt change they way ppl function in the real word, to the best of my knowledge(and multiple article's chronicling the decrease of all forms of violence over the past 20 yrs in correlation to increased gaming.) Here's an interesting aticle about how "bad" vg behavior may change us tho.

If they weren't hacking her, they were gonna be hacking someone else. Their criminals, thats all. They don't represent an entire gender.

Now, back to FF. Why is it wrong for Cidney to be visually appealing to men? Many of the men is this game have idealized figures, and are appealing to women. Thats doesn't automatically make them a "sexualized trope". Frankly tho, I believe sexualizing characters is a normal thing humans do. I also don't believe women are "damaged" by these characters either. I give the female gender the credit deserved. Most women are very capable of seeing a game for what it is.

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You're getting awfully defensive for something that I never implied. Nowhere in my responses have I said, "All men do this! The vast majority of men are sexist pigs who seek to sexually abuse and objectify women! All men want to beat and bloody Anita!" Nowhere have I said those things, so I am not sure why you are confusing me referring to GG as representing the entirety of men.

I am aware that not all men are like this. It is you who are not giving my argument credit. I stated facts. Men do this. Men are doing this. Men create stereotyped female characters which negatively affect women in "the real world". Those are facts.

Hey look, I can find links to support my argument as well.

Racism and sexism in the gaming world: Reinforcing or changing stereotypes in computer games?

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In general, we expect to find that computer games are designed and marketed for white, adolescent males, with evidence of both color-blind racism and overt sexism in the advertisements. Since the mid to late-1980s, many social programs in the U.S. have been retracted or eliminated altogether. This trend—often described as the dismantling of the Great Society programs which were implemented to minimize racial and gender inequality— has slowed efforts toward racial and gender equality (Marable, 2000; Sampson and Laub, 1993). Given this trend, we hypothesize:

(4) Current computer game advertisements (from 2009) will be as racially and gender biased (or more) than those from two decades ago.

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SeX-Box: Exposure to Sexist Video Games Predicts Benevolent Sexism

and here

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We examined the association between playing sexist video games and sexist attitudes. Undergraduate students (61 men and 114 women) indicated the level of perceived sexism present in their most frequently played video games. Students also completed the Ambivalent Sexism Inventory (Glick & Fiske, 1996), which measures both hostile and benevolent sexism. As predicted, men who played video games perceived to be high in sexism showed higher levels of benevolent sexism, compared with men who did not play such games. This relationship was not evident for women. Importantly, our study provides the first known evidence of a link between long-term exposure to sexist video games and sexist attitudes. Although correlational, these data are consistent with the notion that sexist video games encourage and reinforce sexist attitudes. Our findings have important real-world implications for video game researchers, parents, and game players themselves.

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Some good arguments here for how video games do affect their players and their players' behaviors.

Games inspire physical responses, they inspire emotions from us, they can change the way we think or act or provide a new perspective. They have the capacity to do all of the things people mimic after watching a television show or film or reading a book, even to change lives.

This may not translate to people going on murdering rampages in the street. That's not what I'm suggesting. I'm not suggesting that people become full-blown sexists and women-haters because busty character appears on screen. What these things do, though is inspire benevolent sexism, as the articles linked above says. To say that games don't cause, ignite, or otherwise inspire behaviors is, quite frankly, a bunch of bulltrout.

Asking why it's not okay for Cidney to be visually appealing for men followed by saying that sexualizing people is normal and then to say that you give the female gender the credit they deserve is preposterous, because evidently, you do not. You are giving the female gender the credit you think we deserve, which does not translate to credit at all.

...Yeah, I'm just going to cover a few basic things here.

Firstly, just a general response to what you say on her article.

The point of the article wasn't to actively promote other Body Types in gaming. The point was to speak out against people who are constantly bashing games because of characters with big boobs. At no point does she say that other types are not welcome, she is simply countering people who keep saying that the big boobs are not welcome. (Yeah, in this very thread we have someone saying they are going to write a letter to square showing their disapproval of Cid's attire, and no one is saying this is a bad thing. So yeah, there are people saying the boobs aren't welcome, and none of you are exactly saying you disagree with that.)

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Anita begins a blog called Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, which examined tropes that she believes reinforce damaging stereotypes about women. Essentially, this is a movement to break away from the female character stereotypes that we all know too well.

She is attacked because of this.

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No. Firstly, I'm going to ignore Troll's for purpose of this repsonse. (Yeah, the trolls are smurfing troutty, but everyone with any semblance of clout on the internet gets those in droves.) People dislike Anita because of how nonsensical her statements are. You need only look at her dissection of hit man to realize this. The game penalizes you for killing innocents (You know, like all those strippers you see being killed in the video she that she claims the game in question encourages you to kill) to see how, at best, disingenuous she is being in her critique.

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She is attacked because men want those female characters to remain the same; they want their games to remain untouched.

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I hope you have some way to back this claim up.

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She becomes a victim of death and rape threats, her webpages and social media are hacked, her article on Wikipedia is vandalized, among a slew of slander and additional threats of all sorts online in comments and Twitter and the like. One attacker created a computer game that allowed players to beat and bloody an image of her

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Oh, you mean like what happened to Christina Hoff Sommers after she said a lot of these people criticizing Video games in the manner they were rather off base? (Protip: it wasn't people who support GG that went after her.) Or when she speaks out against blatantly false statistics? (Yeah, take a wild guess over where are the vitriol towards her comes from) Or how about Jack Thompson, who received pretty much the exact same treatment as Anita did, in his case the beat up image game as well? Guess that last one kind of destroys this being a thing only women have to deal with. (Yes, death and vivid threats of anal rape were all sent to Jack Thompson.)

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She was forced to vacate her home due to the threats she received, and just recently had to abandon a conference at the University of Utah due to threats of gun violence.

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I'll give you the former, cause that's just plain troutty. Note though, it takes ONE person to do this. But the latter is quite frankly silly. Unless you believe the official reports were full of trout, both state and federal investigations showed the threats to have no credibility what so ever. Regardless, Campus Security was still set to be increased during the event. There is a discrepancy between them saying they were in contact with Anita the whole time, and Anita saying she learned only once she arrived, but point in case this looked as if it were little more then some jack ass high schooler calling in a fake bomb threat to get school canceled for a day. Threats like this happen all the time. Hell, they've happened to Marilyn Manson multiple times from people trying to get his shows canceled cause they felt he was to edgy.

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All of these behaviors are examples of peoples' real life behaviors. They are behaviors caused by video games.

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You have exactly as much backing you up as Jack Thompson's claims do.


And no, pointing out that 'gamers did the same thing to Jack Thomspon' doesn't prove you're right, just as me pointing out all the absolutely terrible things some ass holes have done in the name of Feminism wouldn't be proof that Feminism caused all of this rotten behavior. Absolutely every horrible, troutty thing that has happened can be ascribed to a small handful of individuals easily.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

...Yeah, I'm just going to cover a few basic things here.

Firstly, just a general response to what you say on her article.

The point of the article wasn't to actively promote other Body Types in gaming. The point was to speak out against people who are constantly bashing games because of characters with big boobs. At no point does she say that other types are not welcome, she is simply countering people who keep saying that the big boobs are not welcome. (Yeah, in this very thread we have someone saying they are going to write a letter to square showing their disapproval of Cid's attire, and no one is saying this is a bad thing. So yeah, there are people saying the boobs aren't welcome, and none of you are exactly saying you disagree with that.)

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I'm not saying she said other body types are not welcome. The leg she uses to stand on about why we should keep large-breasted characters is "to include more body types". She says this several times in her article, yet it does not accurately reflect her argument because she is concerned about disproportionately-designed female characters to keep their large breasts, not to be more inclusive of realistic body types that result in the large breasts mentioned.

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Anita begins a blog called Tropes vs. Women in Video Games, which examined tropes that she believes reinforce damaging stereotypes about women. Essentially, this is a movement to break away from the female character stereotypes that we all know too well.

She is attacked because of this.

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No. Firstly, I'm going to ignore Troll's for purpose of this repsonse. (Yeah, the trolls are smurfing troutty, but everyone with any semblance of clout on the internet gets those in droves.) People dislike Anita because of how nonsensical her statements are. You need only look at her dissection of hit man to realize this. The game penalizes you for killing innocents (You know, like all those strippers you see being killed in the video she that she claims the game in question encourages you to kill) to see how, at best, disingenuous she is being in her critique.

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She is attacked because she wishes to change the way women are misogynistically portrayed in video games by those who disagree with her and those who do not want to include measures that support feminist ideals in their games. My statement is correct.

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She is attacked because men want those female characters to remain the same; they want their games to remain untouched.

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I hope you have some way to back this claim up.

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Sure. Read all you like. People making threats because the women seeking to change the movement translates to gamers wanting their games to be untouched by feminist ideals like the one Anita promotes. This means she is attacked because people want those female characters to remain the same.

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She was forced to vacate her home due to the threats she received, and just recently had to abandon a conference at the University of Utah due to threats of gun violence.

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I'll give you the former, cause that's just plain troutty. Note though, it takes ONE person to do this. But the latter is quite frankly silly. Unless you believe the official reports were full of trout, both state and federal investigations showed the threats to have no credibility what so ever. Regardless, Campus Security was still set to be increased during the event. There is a discrepancy between them saying they were in contact with Anita the whole time, and Anita saying she learned only once she arrived, but point in case this looked as if it were little more then some jack ass high schooler calling in a fake bomb threat to get school canceled for a day. Threats like this happen all the time. Hell, they've happened to Marilyn Manson multiple times from people trying to get his shows canceled cause they felt he was to edgy.

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Sorry, but that's a bunch of bulltrout. Someone says that they are going to shoot up a school if a certain individual speaks there, and you want to say that such a threat wasn't credible? Where do you stand as an authority on whether or not a shooting threat should be taken seriously or not? Furthermore, campus security means nothing when a shooting threat has been made and campus authorities say that they will continue to allow guns on campus and in the auditorium. It means nothing.

Does it matter if ONE person or if thousands sent her threats of rape and violence to her home? So smurfing what if it was one person? I hardly believe it would be one in any case because thousands of people did it, but it shouldn't matter if it was one or a thousand; what matters is that it happened. It's really quite offensive that you shake that off in an, "oh, a rape/murder threat from one person isn't a big deal" sort of tone. Why was that important to note at all?

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

At no point does she say that other types are not welcome, she is simply countering people who keep saying that the big boobs are not welcome. (Yeah, in this very thread we have someone saying they are going to write a letter to square showing their disapproval of Cid's attire, and no one is saying this is a bad thing. So yeah, there are people saying the boobs aren't welcome, and none of you are exactly saying you disagree with that.)

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I fail to see how disapproving of the outfit equates to shaming big breasted women. If her bra size was smaller and she was still dressed like that I would feel exactly the same way as I do now. It feels like we're talking about two separate things here. And multiple people have already said her exposed breasts isn't the only issue they have with the outfit.

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No. Firstly, I'm going to ignore Troll's for purpose of this repsonse. (Yeah, the trolls are smurfing troutty, but everyone with any semblance of clout on the internet gets those in droves.) People dislike Anita because of how nonsensical her statements are. You need only look at her dissection of hit man to realize this. The game penalizes you for killing innocents (You know, like all those strippers you see being killed in the video she that she claims the game in question encourages you to kill) to see how, at best, disingenuous she is being in her critique.

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I think that this sort of argument would hold more water if she had not been completely torn to pieces before she'd made any videos. There was no critique made. There were no videos with generalising statements about video games. There was an idea for a video series.

So why did people hate her then? What did she do when making her Kickstarter that deserved the level of vitriol she got?

She suggested that video games might have an issue with female representation. Simple as that.

I find that Anita Sarkersian's videos are too general...if she were more specific, people wouldn't be so confused about what statement she's making.

But the fact remains that 99% of her detractors go much much further out of their way to criticize her than is fair or warranted (or productive). I do believe that it's because she's a woman making the statement that games are kind of sexist.

It's pretty gross and I don't like looking at it.

Because this same trend has been used in some of the responses in this thread, I'd also like to add that the "Not All Men" phenomenon is one of the most offensive trends regarding women's rights circling the internet today and that it does not in any way help the issue at hand, which is that whether or not a specific man is doing it, females in video games are sexualized and objectified by men and it negatively affects women in their daily lives.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

For what it's worth...

https://angelwitchpaganheart.wordpre...-off-my-chest/

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Oooooh, you know I commented on that blog.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

I guess I feel that FF's don't need to give "reasonable" representations of people. I haven't seen many fat, old, or bald male protagonists and I'm not bothered by that. Many of the characters in FF have idealized figures, male and female, which i'm fine with. I believe games are the appropriate medium for these things, Final Fantasy in particular.

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To repeat one simple example I've given several times in this thread, the oldest playable female in a Final Fantasy game is Lulu at 22. There are no less than 23 playable male characters older than Lulu, up to age 70+. If your "fantasy" is that males can be whatever as long as females are all young and pretty, then that is sexist as all get out.

No one's promoting an eradication of pretty people; the issue here is balance.

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Originally Posted by Hannibal_Khan

I haven't seen any evidence that VG's change people's behavior to real word people.

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Art and media both influence and reflect the culture which creates and indulges in them--if you can't recognize that then I feel you're missing the entire point of art and media. I don't want to leave you hanging though, so here are a few published studies:

http://link.springer.com/article/10....-9695-4#page-1
http://link.springer.com/article/10....-9250-0#page-1
http://utpjournals.metapress.com/con...ut85g663gr605/
http://link.springer.com/article/10....-9278-1#page-1
http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uplo...5150.15436.pdf
http://link.springer.com/article/10....-9637-1#page-1
http://jiv.sagepub.com/content/early...41078.abstract

A lot of people jump from this to "but that's like saying video games cause violence, which we know is untrue!" I don't think that's an unreasonable jump to make at first, but you have to consider 1) saturation and 2) ...effort levels? I'm failing to think of a phrase for that last one.

In regards to the former, we are just knee-deep in sexualization and objectification all the time. We are all raised from birth to value women based largely on their appearance, and that is constantly reinforced. We do this to everyone, of course--pretty people tend to have it better in general--but we do this to women far more. We are not exposed nearly so much to violence. Think of people who live in areas with a lot of gang activity; people living in those kinds of culture find that getting shot may just be a normal part of life. Or something to be proud of. For me, if I got so much as a superficial bullet wound is would somewhat smurf me up for life. I think if I got mugged I'd never leave the house again, but in some areas this is normal.

In regards to the later, there is a big difference between thinking sexist thoughts and shooting someone. Or even just hitting someone. I am not more likely to commit a violent act after playing GTAV, but I sure am more likely to be amused by the thought of running people over in my car. Seeing women in video games as primarily young and pretty, and often made to look like outright smurf dolls, influences how we see women.

Again, it's not about eradicating sexy, it's about balance. Balance both within the female gender and between the two genders.

Also again, my issue with Cidney isn't that she has boobs. I think I've illustrated the issue at least six times now though, and everyone else has said the same thing, so the next person to accuse anyone of hating on Cidney because "it's just some boobs" or something similar will incur just unrestrained wrath. Wrath, I say!

Oh please someone take one for the team and say it. Pllleeeeeeaaassseee.

Also, Edit: I'll add something of value to the discussion, or try to.

Character designed to be sexy AND sexualized:
http://gamingtrend.com/wp-content/up...ka-mesta-a.jpg

Character designed to be sexy BUT NOT sexualized:
http://lounge.moviecodec.com/images/...-keys-6690.jpg

There's a difference between making a character that's attractive and making a character that's an object.

Square's not the worst company out there for these things, but they're still guilty of it.

Perhaps it's hard for some of you to understand sexualized vs. non-sexualized b/c we're talking about different characters in different situations and blah blah blah, well here's one character, before and after a reboot:

http://www.pixelkin.org/wp-content/u.../laracroft.jpg

The Tomb Raider reboot finally gave us a Lara whose body makes sense, whose proportions are realistic and unsexualized, who can be sexy without taking away from all her other qualities.

The point isn't sexiness. People still think the new Lara is sexy. People think Alyx Vance is sexy. But that's not the primary reason for them being onscreen. THEIR PURPOSE FOR BEING A WOMAN IN A GAME IS NOT JUST TO BE A PIECE OF ASS.

It's not even the amount of skin showing. Lara's clothes get shredded throughout the newest game, so by the end she's showing a lot more skin than shows in the above picture. But, for one, it makes sense in the story, and for two, it isn't the focus, it doesn't get in the way of Lara being Lara, which is more than a pair of tits.

I hate that we can't (neither as a forum nor as a society) get on the same page. Bottom line, it's pretty obvious that female characters are sexual objects in games more often than not, including in Final Fantasy. I don't think every single thing that people point to as being sexist is actually sexist, though. For instance, I don't think you can say that FFXV is sexist for having an all-male cast and also say that FFX-2 is sexist for having an all-female cast. (I haven't seen that in EoFF, but I have seen it online, and it's just an example).

I don't think it's wrong to point out that #notallmen. Because it's true, and because it's not about being defensive (I mean it doesn't have to be). Men who are closet misogynists may use it to cover the fact that they're totally secretly against this feminism stuff, but I don't see much evidence of it being about that. I don't think it should be a "movement" or anything, I just think it's important as an idea. You and I and everyone in here might be aware that not every dude is full-on sexist, but I've seen enough broad sweeping statements online, and heard enough women trash "every guy" to know that some people do take it too far. And ultimately, I think it's important that men and women work through this together. This shouldn't be a war, at least not one between men and women.

Is it really so hard, such a HUGE distraction, to see the whole thing in the proper perspective, to realize #yesallwomen and #notallmen at the same time? It's not so hard. It's no more difficult than asking men who have been indoctrinated from childhood to undermine and objectify women to suddenly see how wrong their thinking has been.

It's not a distraction, it's part of the discussion. Clearly this is an issue that requires more than a quick-fix, more than a simple overarching statement that cleans everything up in one fell swoop. I think it HELPS the cause of feminism to recognize that not all men perpetrate or propagate sexism (in the same way that not all women benefit or enforce feminism). That group of men is absolutely essential to the cause of feminism, because whether we like it or not, that's the group that has to change the minds of men who are sexist (that's logic, not sexism, think about it). It's also important to note because that group (along with women) needs to recognize unintentional or incidental sexism at work.

For instance, the disparate ages of FF characters was mentioned earlier. Something like this could be totally unintentional or accidental (for the record, I think it's indicative of Japanese cultural trends, i.e. directly sexist, but to make a point...). In other words, I don't think that the developers at SE have a rule that says there cannot be female characters over a certain age, they just design them that way. I'm not giving them a free pass, bear with me. Even assuming the characters were designed, just by chance to be the way they are (and not because SE designers intentionally thought to propagate sexism), they've had plenty of opportunity to be anti-sexist, to be proactive about the way they develop female characters, and for the most part they haven't been.

Again, I want to reiterate that I don't think SE is as bad as these threads might seem to imply. I think they're better than average, in fact (which is sad in it's own way I guess). Which is why it's sad to see them do something like this with Cidney. It's not the worst case of sexism in video games, but it's a step in the wrong direction. It's a step backward, not forward.

It's just some boobs, you're fine with looking at them when a woman breastfeeds but if she wears a bikini top western civilizations doomed right

Note: chionos put me up to it

I enjoy natural ladies

*snip* EDIT BY BoB: You can't say stuff like that!

If it helps, chionos, I don't have any reason in particular to believe men are more sexist than women. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me and it seems likely based on my perspective, but I don't hold the view that men are sexist and women aren't. Women are very often the sexist ones. And I mean women upholding the patriarchy and all that trout.

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Originally Posted by Shlup

If it helps, chionos, I don't have any reason in particular to believe men are more sexist than women. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me and it seems likely based on my perspective, but I don't hold the view that men are sexist and women aren't. Women are very often the sexist ones. And I mean women upholding the patriarchy and all that trout.

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Oh, I'd say men and women are about equally sexist. We're all human, after all. I think the difference is that men have been in control for a long time and in such a system, naturally their version of sexism is going to be more prevalent. Men were in power so they were allowed to be sexist. I fully believe that if all gender roles were flip-flopped, we'd see the same thing in reverse: a disproportionate amount of women objectifying men and oppressing men and so on. The key is balance, and I sadly don't think we'll ever find it from where we are now. It would take a book to explain why I feel this way (and I certainly don't mean we shouldn't try), so I won't bother trying to get into it here.

In any non-perfect system, unilateral power is bad.

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We examined the association between playing sexist video games and sexist attitudes

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I don't consider FF's to be sexist video games nor do i think that they encourage or reinforce sexist attitudes, thus I dont see how that study is relevent to FFXV's Cidney. And according to them them, any story involving a "dansel in distress" is sexist(seriously, even mario games are sexist now?)...

Are we gonna censor games now b/c a small number of men will show "higher levels of benevolent sexism"?. If a guy can't distinguish the difference between a VG and the real world and wants to be a sexist prick, he can die alone without a wife our children. Thats Darwin. Better for the gene pool, imo. Do you really think that Cidney's design will propagate a sexist attitude in someone who didn't already have those kinds of beliefs?

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This relationship was not evident for women

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You emphasis this as was to deflect from the issue of male sexualized/idealized body figures in contrast to females? as if somehow women are immune to having the own sexist attitudes reinforced by video games? b/c that study does not unequivocally state that. And i suspect that would not hold up after further research and more balanced sample(the paper addresses the need for these in further reseaerch tho). But I don't outright deny that possibility(although it does seem counter-intuitive) either and would be genuinely interested in seeing that topic studied further.

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Asking why it's not okay for Cidney to be visually appealing for men followed by saying that sexualizing people is normal and then to say that you give the female gender the credit they deserve is preposterous, because evidently, you do not. You are giving the female gender the credit you think we deserve, which does not translate to credit at all.

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How does me saying that "women are perfectly capable of distinguishing fictional game characters from real world expectations", equal me giving women no credit? And why is it preposterous for me to think that she can be both visually appealing and a great character. And why such contempt in your response? I didn't say I wanted her oiled up and put in chains, i just asked why she can't be visually appealing. Im sure there are more than a few feminist goals that we would be in agreement on, and Im not defending the VG world's representation of women across the board, I just disagree with your assessment that me wanting a female character to be attractive is immediately sexism.

Sexualization is a broad spectrum and i believe most characters are sexualized by players to some degree, regardless of how provocative a design is perceived to be. And I believe that's quite normal human behavior among both sexes.



Ultimately, it's the calls for censorship that I find most egregious...

...I'm looking at you, spooniest...:argh:

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Originally Posted by chionos

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Originally Posted by Shlup

Shut your smurfing face, Spooniest.

If it helps, chionos, I don't have any reason in particular to believe men are more sexist than women. I mean, it wouldn't surprise me and it seems likely based on my perspective, but I don't hold the view that men are sexist and women aren't. Women are very often the sexist ones. And I mean women upholding the patriarchy and all that trout.

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Oh, I'd say men and women are about equally sexist. We're all human, after all. I think the difference is that men have been in control for a long time and in such a system, naturally their version of sexism is going to be more prevalent. Men were in power so they were allowed to be sexist. I fully believe that if all gender roles were flip-flopped, we'd see the same thing in reverse: a disproportionate amount of women objectifying men and oppressing men and so on. The key is balance, and I sadly don't think we'll ever find it from where we are now. It would take a book to explain why I feel this way (and I certainly don't mean we shouldn't try), so I won't bother trying to get into it here.

In any non-perfect system, unilateral power is bad.

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