I Don't Get the Complaints around XIII

Okay, so I'm up to the final boss (just need to get my house in order before I beat him - tried just now and Instant Death is not my vibe), and am really trying to understand the gripes that people had with XIII.

1. Vanille is annoying
Seriously? Okay, she's not going to win the award for the most desirable person in the entire world, but reviewers really made her sound like the most irritating character in the entire world. Not saying she's a great character either, but people went overboard with her (and to be honest, I found Hope the most Tidus whiney, Squall emo and Vaan pointless character for the first bit of the game - although the development worked for him).

2. Linearity/Lack of Towns etc
Fair enough, for most of the game, you are walking down a straight track. And there aren't many side-quests (and I love side-quests). But, I started playing this game on Thursday evening and am yet to be bored. I think that there was an over-correction from the vastness of XII's world causing the story to lose momentum, but I don't think it was that troublesome. Would I have liked to see towns (like in previous FFs) and side-quests that involved stuff besides hit the monster? Yes, I would have. I am still trying to find out why Gran Pulse is EMPTY of humans (!!!!!!!!), but the designers really should have done a bit more with that world. But, I don't think this is as big a flaw as people made it out to be.

You're about to get a flood of people telling you all sorts of things. I just want to say that I love this game. :D

Im with Ragebrain The Enraged this game rocks! I thought Vanille was one of the best chars. This game didnt need towns! Just like Heroes dont need plans!

as opposed to starting a new thread.
That is where people who like the game have been posting..just like those who don't have been posting in the flaws thread.

As I have already given my views I won't repeat them here.:roll2

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Originally Posted by Ragebrain The Enraged

You're about to get a flood of people telling you all sorts of things. I just want to say that I love this game. :D

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Looks like i'm up first and tbh i'm just repeating myself. I'm not going to break the game into pieces and list every single last thing i disliked about it (everything more or less) but i'll share a couple of my biggest complaints.

Something which really bothers me is that even when the game "opens up" there is no incentive to fight anything except Adamantoises and their variations. They drop the hardest item to obtain, and will be your main source of both Gil and CP. Here i go bringing FFXII into the equation again but for FFXII, every weapon you could make in the game required different loot to act as ingredients, which forces you to explore the entire of Ivalice and fight every kind of monster. But again, FFXIII you get everything you need in one place, so all other enemies and locations become redundent.

The story, characters, the way the story is told with focus on the characters rather than the plot, it's down down to opinion and although i don't like it personally, i apreciate that others do. The same with linearity, fair play if it's what you want. But exploration is a deep part of what defines FF, and to remove anything which deviates from the given path and pre-set battles is a direct attack on FF fans, regardless of whether or not it was well received by half the fans or not, it's still like spitting on your fans. My question is, why remove exploration, customization and sidequests completley? As far as i'm concerned there is no good excuse they can give, i don't want to hear technology issues, time constraints, budget or experimentation, the fact is, that by removing them, they have created a game which does not in any way relate to anything FF except in its name.

I should point out, that unlike a lot of people who complain at this game and have never even played it, or started to play and gave up, i didn't just beat the game, i put in all the nessessary work to achieve the platinum. Which i feel is an incredable achievement when you consider the battle system gets stale long before you reach the end of the game. The difficulty dies out completley (the uber boss is a joke) and all that is required to achieve the platinum is hours and hours of tedious grinding and little else.

I'm going to stop there coz i could just go on and on.

i very much enjoyed this game. still am, in fact. i think it's great! but you should probably go post in the strengths or love thread so those can gain some entries instead of starting a new one :D still tho, love this game. high five!

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Originally Posted by Ragebrain The Enraged

You're about to get a flood of people telling you all sorts of things. I just want to say that I love this game. :D

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Same. :D

I have listed over 20 things wrong with this game, some of them which are deeply flawed and I am not going to write them again though I might post a copy.

The game was literally one single line for 90% of the time you played, 2 of your characters were AI, there were precious few RPG elements to be seen, and even the developers themselves are defending it.

So, evidentally, even they see that there is a perceived problem. If you haven't seen all these flaws, you must have had your eyes closed while playing the game.....sorry, I mean watching the game, as it basically plays itself and then a cut scene cut scene cut scene.

Some of us don't rate games sorely on graphics or on famitsu or on flash. I prefer substance, gameplay and those things this game took away. In fact, it's a bout time we stopped calling these jokes games, and instead were truthful : "Interactive Movie"

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In fact, it's a bout time we stopped calling these jokes games, and instead were truthful : "Interactive Movie"

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FMV=/= "Interactive Movie" because you don't interact with it and it lacks of making decisions within the storyline. The older FFs were more
of "Interactive books" to me.

I don't remember an FF being so story driven and interrupted with flashy graphics in quite the same way as XIII.... In XIII it is always battle - FMV - Cut scene formula with no deviations apart from Gran Pulse.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

1. Vanille is annoying
Seriously? Okay, she's not going to win the award for the most desirable person in the entire world, but reviewers really made her sound like the most irritating character in the entire world. Not saying she's a great character either, but people went overboard with her (and to be honest, I found Hope the most Tidus whiney, Squall emo and Vaan pointless character for the first bit of the game - although the development worked for him).

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I don't think Vanille is as annoying as her voice is. I would have liked her more if her VA wasn't required to make her sound like a four year old. Otherwise she was just quirky and cute, nothing too abnormal, but dang the voice acting took it overboard.

Case in point: (SPOILER)The scene after Lake Bresha in the temple-y place when Vanille wanders off and is chased by a dragon? It would have been FINE if she'd just giggled a LITTLE and skipped off. But no, she was "AAH" and "OOH" and "AHAH" and "EE!" and "HHEHE :]"-ing literally with every step she took. Bad, annoying localization right there.

I'm not sure what all the hate is about either. FF XIII is the best visual novel I ever played. And that includes both Kana and Katawa Shoujo.

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

But there is gameplay. :D

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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Actually many would consider visual novels to be a kind of game, even though the only player input is branching paths and dialogue trees. But I get that wasn't your point.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Personally i'd define contradiction by what you just said.

You made a competetive arguement for how the story is the most important part of a game and how attachment to the characters give the story depth and meaning. But you also said this -

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is not just a personal opinion

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And now you are saying this -

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective

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So either the story is defined by the players opinion of it, or it's not.

Now excuse me while i go to the FFXII forum to tear apart your final arguements on the subject ;)

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

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The gambit system in XII gave you complete control over all three characters on the screen. You are able to automate as much of the actions of the characters you want; heck you can even completely shut off the gambits and control all three manually. If your characters were on auto pilot through out the whole game, than that's your fault, not the game's.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall

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Completely subjective, I personally thought it had the best gameplay the series has yet to see (haven't played XIII yet), but that's just my opinion. To each their own, or as my old man likes to say, different strokes for different folks.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped.

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XII's story was very well developed; for a story that is so plot driven I'm surprised that people actually miss it. Granted it's a very straight forward story with very little twists and turns; it's still very much present in the game, and fairly well written if I don't say so myself.

As for the character's, again the story is more plot driven than your average FF game, so of course character development isn't going to be as noticable. However, just because character development is played down a bit doesn't mean it's not there. The characters do develop and change, it's just done much subtle than in previous FFs.

Wow, that's the first time I've ever had seperate quotes on my response, I'm surprised I didn't goober that up.

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Personally i'd define contradiction by what you just said.

You made a competetive arguement for how the story is the most important part of a game and how attachment to the characters give the story depth and meaning. But you also said this -

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is not just a personal opinion

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And now you are saying this -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective

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So either the story is defined by the players opinion of it, or it's not.

Now excuse me while i go to the FFXII forum to tear apart your final arguements on the subject ;)

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but you're welcome to keep trying..

I see story as objective....sort of like light.....an observer can see it and take measurements and come to a conclusion.

I feel that is why Black Isle was so successful. Sadly they ran into financial problems and closed.

Black Isle Studios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But the stories in the games they developed...if you take a look at them...are acclaimed by most pc rpg fans.
Other things in rpgs are subjective though...and a matter of preference.
The towns, npcs, and minigames, chests and their contents, linearity and other issues we have been debating.:roll2

I didn't think the story of FFXII was well developed at all..a lot of that game was incomplete due to Matsuno's abrupt departure and the failure by his replacement to give the game a good proofread.

shrugs.

As for FFXIII I have read reviews and watched videos and it seems to be flawed as well and I find that a shame.:mad:

oh well..on to Versus...:roll2

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

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Originally Posted by Shin Gouken

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

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Originally Posted by Karifean

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective, but this is a GAME and thus it needs gameplay and that is where a lot of hate is coming from. Games aren't meant to be visual novels, they are supposed to be GAMES primarily.

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I'm surprised you're writing this after all your griping in the FF XII thread.

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XII had lack lustre gameplay too, gambits are a step behind what XIII did, basically AI characters.

XII had a pitiful gameplay overall but it wasn't as bad as XIII which takes useless to a whole new meaning. Unfortunately XII's story/Character development was ridiculously underdeveloped. XIII decided to go the other way with overboard graphic fests and even less gameplay so story was even more in your face.

Basically both games suck in their own way and both got the balance completely wrong. I don't see that as a contradiction because....it isn't.

Jacob_Khozaim's reader review of Final Fantasy XII for PlayStation 2

There is a chap who saw it coming...

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Personally i'd define contradiction by what you just said.

You made a competetive arguement for how the story is the most important part of a game and how attachment to the characters give the story depth and meaning. But you also said this -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is not just a personal opinion

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And now you are saying this -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is rather subjective

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So either the story is defined by the players opinion of it, or it's not.

Now excuse me while i go to the FFXII forum to tear apart your final arguements on the subject ;)

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but you're welcome to keep trying..

I see story as objective....sort of like light.....an observer can see it and take measurements and come to a conclusion.

I feel that is why Black Isle was so successful. Sadly they ran into financial problems and closed.

Black Isle Studios - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But the stories in the games they developed...if you take a look at them...are acclaimed by most pc rpg fans.
Other things in rpgs are subjective though...and a matter of preference.
The towns, npcs, and minigames, chests and their contents, linearity and other issues we have been debating.:roll2

I didn't think the story of FFXII was well developed at all..a lot of that game was incomplete due to Matsuno's abrupt departure and the failure by his replacement to give the game a good proofread.

shrugs.

As for FFXIII I have read reviews and watched videos and it seems to be flawed as well and I find that a shame.:mad:

oh well..on to Versus...:roll2

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I didn't come up short at all. In fact you're borrowing my arguement. I stated (and don't think i could have been clearer) that everything boils down to opinion and preference. And opinions shouldn't be stated as fact, which pretty much made everything seifer said redundent because of the claims he was making.

I see you as positive to Seifer's negative...

I see you as partisan for the game as seifer is negative towards it.
Opposites.

shrugs.

Opinions stated as facts ?
I don't see you as being any different from seifer.You might be less dogmatic in your approach but that's about it.

It is hard to come to a consensus.

Some people like the game, always will and some don't and always will.

maybe compare and contrast would be better.

Compare and contrast FFXIII to :

FFVI

FFVII

FF Tactics

Those 3 are generally considered by most fans the best FF games.Some may add FFIV or FFVIII or FFX into the mix but most include those 3 games.

Is FFXIII superior in any way to those 3 games, excluding the technology of graphics ?

Better in any other way ?

Let me know if you think it is and explain why if you would like.

;)

I think games should be judged on their own merits. :D

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

I see you as positive to Seifer's negative...

I see you as partisan for the game as seifer is negative towards it.
Opposites.

shrugs.

Opinions stated as facts ?
I don't see you as being any different from seifer.You might be less dogmatic in your approach but that's about it.

It is hard to come to a consensus.

Some people like the game, always will and some don't and always will.

maybe compare and contrast would be better.

Compare and contrast FFXIII to :

FFVI

FFVII

FF Tactics

Those 3 are generally considered by most fans the best FF games.Some may add FFIV or FFVIII or FFX into the mix but most include those 3 games.

Is FFXIII superior in any way to those 3 games, excluding the technology of graphics ?

Better in any other way ?

Let me know if you think it is and explain why if you would like.

;)

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Ive always been very clear in any arguement that iv put forward that what i'm stating is opinion. Where Sefier will clearly state something like "Noone cares about X character".

You are right that i am the positive to his negative, but i'm not claiming the game to be great, just stating that it has reason to be enjoyed, where he will claim that the game is awful and that his opinion is rule.

Ive never played tactics and my opinions of VI and VII aren't particularly great. I fear sparking a huge debate if i share any comments regarding them :p

It is quite simple really:

XII had poor story telling/quantity and bad pacing coupled with lack lustre gameplay.

XIII had a severely bloated story coupled with virtually no gameplay.

Story is subjective if there is actually story there.

in XII's case it isn't simply a matter of personal taste because there are glaring faults with how much it is lacking and bad pacing, which are not by themselves totally criticisms of the actual quality but rather its presentation, depth and quantity. Arguments can be made that XII was so lacking in this that it's story fell short as a result and I agree with that.

In XIII's case no one can argue with the quantity (there was lots of it story wise). So I can't apply the same arguments to XII and XIII as they differ somewhat but are both utterly flawed. And as I haven't seen enough of XIII's story, I cannot make any criticism of its quality at this time.

The one thing they BOTH made grievous errors in was balance. XIII has too much story at the expense of gameplay, XII has flawed gameplay but much more than XIII, except the dialogue was bare bones and pacing dire.

VII, VIII, IX and X got the balance more or less correct for an modern RPG and certainly did a better job than XII and XIII at pleasing the whole spectrum of fan and not just the closed minded tunnel visions who would be happy with anything as long as it has a bit of flash, a scantily clad female and Final Fantasy written on the case..

rotfl...

Shrugs....

I am sure there are fans of even the worst video game ever made..who will claim those games have a reason to be enjoyed...shin so that argument doesn't hold water imo...

I believe comparing and contrasting is a good way to measure anything...and when you have a series of games..whether it be FF, Grandia, Suikoden, Persona, etc etc..comparing the last game to the earlier games in the series is a valid way of determining how the game measures up to previous games in the series.

If anyone cares to make the claim that FFXIII is better than previous FF games, if you exclude the technical graphics are superior on the PS3 ..then feel free to make that claim.

:D

I used to try cotton wool wrapping everything and saying things nicer but that doesn't work, it doesn't go into peoples brains and since no one changes their opinion, no matter how barmy, I don't see the fault in simply saying it as I see it.

I long given up with putting on a fake smile for my opinions :) I could sit here and tell you how its all opinion and how it doesn't matter to me and how we can all agree to disagree and all those other nice phrases but I would jut be lying.

And let's get it straight, we are arguing about games here, not life and death decisions.

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Compare and contrast FFXIII to :

FFVI
FFVII
FF Tactics

Those 3 are generally considered by most fans the best FF games.Some may add FFIV or FFVIII or FFX into the mix but most include those 3 games.

Is FFXIII superior in any way to those 3 games, excluding the technology of graphics ?

Better in any other way ?

Let me know if you think it is and explain why if you would like.

;)

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It should be noted that if you compare every video game to other video games, and only enjoy the ones that compare favourably, then you will end up disappointed far more often than not as you can only have one game which you consider better than the rest. I prefer to enjoy each game I play for it's own story, much like I am able to enjoy each comedian for his own jokes regardless of whether they're better than another comedian's jokes or not. If I'm still laughing at the jokes, even if they aren't my favourites, what's the problem?

For this reason, I prefer not to compare games while playing them. I'll compare them when I'm done with them, and I don't consider XIII to be better than, say, VII, but that doesn't mean I don't consider it a good game - I still enjoyed it, therefore I consider it a good game.

Some people will look for reasons to grumble, some people will look for reasons to smile. I prefer to smile. :) I'm glad that there are people out there doing the grumbling as they make me feel a bit better about my perception of things. I feel lucky that I can be happy about things that make others sad, as it means I'm going to be a happier person than them in such cases, which can only be a good thing.

I pay money so I can enjoy a game, not so I can play the best game ever. If the latter thing happens, all the better, but one should always seek happiness wherever possible.

You see I really don't understand that viewpoint.

If we are buying Final Fantasy, and most of us are doing so because we liked IV,V,VI,VII,VIII, IX,X or even god help you, XII...

How can it be wrong to compare XIII or other FF games to the ones you liked earlier in the series?

And why is it so wrong to get angry when the games today are lacking in all but graphics compared to games that are 10 years old?

This is a brand, and as such you buy the next in the series with an expectation and justified demand that the large amount of money you are paying will result in a quality game up to the standard of previous titles.

I can't quite understand how this can be wrong. Why should I compare XIII to Mario Kart 64 or Mario RPG or any other game?

It is completely fair to compare the games to previous titles in the same series, and if those games aren't as good or have glaring errors, that is the fault of the games company, not us.

Of course taking this approach is going to yield disappointment but its an entirely justified and logical approach to comparing these games.

I don't buy FF games for my health, I buy them because I liked VI-X and I expect that paying upwards of 40 UK pounds I am getting a proper FF GAME of the ilk that made me like the series in the first place.

X-2, XII, XIII and all these spin offs have stuck 2 fingers up at me and other fans like me, and said "well, we are changing what you loved about FF but we don't care coz we are goin' for profitz"

I was angry with X-2 after being duped, I was angry at XII for being duped, and I am angry at XIII because it is still taking the piss, even though I wasn't going to be made a fool of a 3rd time or ever again and this series, which I consider one of the greatest ever made, is being dumbed down and destroyed.

The general attitude now is that they can do as they please and will still get millions of sales and you know the sad thing? They are right!

As I've said, I don't expect any of the other games to compare to my favourite (VII) - even X and VIII for me were not as good. But I loved VIII. Didn't care much for X, but a lot of people loved it, too. So you can compare all the games you love with each other and you'll always have a favourite, but why should that make all the othe games bad? What if your favourite is an old game? Does that mean every game made ever since is bad? It doesn't for me.

You say "they can do as they please and will still get millions of sales" - no, if they created a game that was universally agreed to be bad then I'm sure they would suffer for it. But just because you dislike everything about the game doesn't mean that everyone does. I think it was a good game, enjoyable and with a lot of things to discuss which is also something I like about a good game - that it has so much background you can speculate over.

Just because a game is "not as good" does not mean it is "bad". Can you be disappointed if you found it to be bad? Absolutely. Can you even be disappointed if you found it to be not half the game that your favourite was? Absolutely. But if you still enjoyed it all the same, should you call it a bad game? No. If you enjoy something which is designed to be enjoyed then they have succeeded in making a good video game. Is it good enough to be considered a Final Fantasy? I don't think of things that way. Just because a game is good doesn't mean it has to have a certain name, and just because a game has a certain name does not mean it has to be good. Take a look at Resident Evil, for example. RE4 was universally acclaimed as a really good game, but despite that I was disappointed because for me, it was not in line with the previous installments. Where were the fixed cameras? The suspense? No, I believe they changed it to an FPS, which is not a big win for me. But it was still, from what I understand, a good game. It still carried the RE name and was part of the main series. But the general idea for me is that it was a disappointing game from my perspective, one that did not become what I wanted, but not a bad game overall because clearly many, many people loved it.

The name just means you can expect a couple of things. The first is that it will be a JRPG, the second that it will feature chocobos (and those weren't even featured in FF1). Everything else will change from game to game.

Would I like a FFVII styled game? Yes. Do I think it will happen? No. Do I think this means that they're selling out and all their games will be bad? No. Doees this mean I expect to enjoy every game? NO. I hope to. If I don't, so be it. But when I disliked FFX you didn't see me slamming SE as selling out or anything. I just hoped the next would be better and hey, at least others enjoyed it. Good game, I hear.

EDIT: While I won't deny that enjoying older FF games is one of the reasons I buy new FF's, to say it is THE reason I buy Final Fantasy games would be a lie. I buy them because I like JRPGs. I also have various other JRPGs which I've either liked or disliked from other series. When a mainstream JRPG comes out, I look for it and if I have the cash then I buy it and play it. I don't judge it on name alone. However, my adoration for chocobos and most of the FF series does obviously add encouragement for those specific titles. If I bought games based on previous installments though then I would be naive (because staff change and therefore games differ) and confused (because how am I meant to buy based on a series when my favourite JRPG is an FF and one of my least favourite JRPG's is also an FF?).

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

If we are buying Final Fantasy, and most of us are doing so because we liked IV,V,VI,VII,VIII, IX,X or even god help you, XII...

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I have my issues with XII, but it is a good game. It may have not been what I expected and is probably my least favourite Final Fantasy, but it was still good.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

How can it be wrong to compare XIII or other FF games to the ones you liked earlier in the series?

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There is nothing wrong with comparing XIII to previous FFs. What is puzzling me is how you are doing this comparison. You played these previous FFs whereas you have not played FF, correct? I would argue that this is a massive flaw in this methodology of comparison.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

And why is it so wrong to get angry when the games today are lacking in all but graphics compared to games that are 10 years old?

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The problem with this argument is that the graphic advancement is an underlying element of the growth in games. XIII utilises the advances in processing power to create dramatic scenes, moods, etc., which would previously not be possible.

But even ignoring this, I don't quite understand how VII is superior to XIII. In other threads, you've complained about the AI and the battle system. I would say that, for every single FF I've played, I would have chosen the Attack command 80-90% of the time. Unless the enemy had a weakness to an element or magic, in which case I would have hit them with a spell. The same spell. Repeatedly. Don't quite understand how the automation of an otherwise repetitive process is a bad thing.

And for some reason, I prefer voice acting. As XIII isn't a novel, it's quite hard to pick up the gentle intonations that give speech it's many different meanings if all I had were bubble text boxes. Maybe I'm alone on that one.

And I also like my English to make sense. This guy are sick is amusing, but seriously, come on.

Also, by current standards, VII had a very simplistic story, which also had some rather large plot holes (Tifa not telling Cloud about him not being a SOLDIER in Nibelheim for starters).

And there weren't exactly many environments either. There was the World Map, but that's just green, yellow and blue paint basically, so that doesn't really count.

I am not saying VII is a bad game or that XIII is a superior game. VII has to be viewed in the context of the gaming environment when it came out. Games as a whole have improved over 10 years. But arguing that XIII is worse than VII as a game is nonsensical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

This is a brand, and as such you buy the next in the series with an expectation and justified demand that the large amount of money you are paying will result in a quality game up to the standard of previous titles.

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But you are not arguing about standards. XIII's production values are on another planet compared to VII. You are advocating that FF return back to what you are used to. That is a problem. Final Fantasy has always been innovating, always been improving, even if it didn't need to be. If FFVIII-XIII had been VII clones, the series would be dead by now. As Loonybob put it, the only things you can expect in any FF are chocobos, an airship and a guy called Cid.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I can't quite understand how this can be wrong. Why should I compare XIII to Mario Kart 64 or Mario RPG or any other game?

It is completely fair to compare the games to previous titles in the same series, and if those games aren't as good or have glaring errors, that is the fault of the games company, not us.

Of course taking this approach is going to yield disappointment but its an entirely justified and logical approach to comparing these games.

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Again, how you are comparing XIII is a major question. And your gripes with XIII seem to be based on personal preference. Or an unwillingness to try something new. That is not the fault of the developer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I don't buy FF games for my health, I buy them because I liked VI-X and I expect that paying upwards of 40 UK pounds I am getting a proper FF GAME of the ilk that made me like the series in the first place.

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27 pounds on Amazon.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

X-2, XII, XIII and all these spin offs have stuck 2 fingers up at me and other fans like me, and said "well, we are changing what you loved about FF but we don't care coz we are goin' for profitz"

I was angry with X-2 after being duped, I was angry at XII for being duped, and I am angry at XIII because it is still taking the piss, even though I wasn't going to be made a fool of a 3rd time or ever again and this series, which I consider one of the greatest ever made, is being dumbed down and destroyed.

The general attitude now is that they can do as they please and will still get millions of sales and you know the sad thing? They are right!

---

X-2 had one of the best battle systems in any Final Fantasy ever. It was a brilliant re-invention of the Job System and, although it was very light, it was enjoyable to play. And technically the least linear FF ever. Oh, and despite the plot being a bit weak, some of the themes in the story were brilliant - of a society awkwardly moving forward into a new era after an oppressive regime has fallen and the hatred and bigotry people have for no apparent reason.

There are enough people on this forum to defend XII, so I will leave them with that task. I will just say that, although I felt the storyline a bit lacking and the game not being as epic as other FFs, it was still a very good game.

Which leaves us with XIII, which you are consistently bashing, without even trying it. The great irony is that one of the themes in the game is the fear and hatred people can hold against something unknown, even though they have never had an opportunity to determine whether they have a reason to feel that way.

Let's not get back to the old flawed argument of "You haven't even played it"

- I have watched hours of video and walk through material of it in both Japanese and English

- I have read dozens of Reviews good and bad

- I have read comments on this and other forums

- We have review sites for precisely the reason of working out whether we want to buy it WARNING WARNING PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF THIS PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF THIS!!!! PLEASE READ READ READ READ!!!!!!

- I am not criticising your right to defend it, you are criticising my right to attack it, hence you are a hypocrite.

- I have repeated and added to my comments on this game many times. I have not offered my own opinion on the story, because as much as I am sure the comments about its melodrama and useless nature are true, I haven't seen enough of it and thus I cannot have any opinion on its quality. This is not the same thing with the rest of the game which I HAVE done extensive research on.

- I will not stop criticising it or putting my opinion on it and other games forward on a forum, if you don't like the idea of free speech I suggest you find a place more to your liking?

Now I will respond to your points:

Quote:

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But even ignoring this, I don't quite understand how VII is superior to XIII. In other threads, you've complained about the AI and the battle system. I would say that, for every single FF I've played, I would have chosen the Attack command 80-90% of the time

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You WERE GIVEN THE CHOICE and even if that were true it would be a problem with the implementation of the system not the system itself. I have admitted already elsewhere that I believe VII did not fully utilise its system because it wanted to be an easy game. This is not a criticism of the SYSTEM but of the IMPLEMENTATION of it. It can be corrected and I am correcting it with a difficulty mod for the PC version.

Bottom line, YOU HAD A CHOICE. A choice that XII and especially XIII have taken away whether you like it or not.

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And for some reason, I prefer voice acting.

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Again it doesn't give us a choice and XIII even forces us to read manuals to understand the plot, I mean can that actually get any more flawed?

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This guy are sick is amusing, but seriously, come on.

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This is not a fault with VII's story but with the translation. You can't use a bad translation to knock the story.

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Also, by current standards, VII had a very simplistic story, which also had some rather large plot holes (Tifa not telling Cloud about him not being a SOLDIER in Nibelheim for starters).

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Which she explains as being worried of what he might do, that he might go crazy. So no, this isn't a plot hole, it is explained in Midhir (Mideel)

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And there weren't exactly many environments either. There was the World Map, but that's just green, yellow and blue paint basically, so that doesn't really count.

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There were many different screens that allowed you to explore. I mean honestly, have you even THOUGHT about what you are writing? The world map allowed finding secret islands and utilising Chocobo's. It allowed finding secret areas and making the world more colourful. There were far more exploring allowed in VII and as usual distractions like Gold Saucer and Wutai side quests. Your criticisms are unfair.

As for green paint, I think you are again confusing gameplay with graphics.

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Games as a whole have improved over 10 years. But arguing that XIII is worse than VII as a game is nonsensical.

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No it isn't. VII had better music, VII had more gameplay (this can be demonstrated to be a fact), more minigames (again is a fact), more NPC (a fact), more sidequests (a fact). All of these were better than what XIII offered. The only thing XIII beats VII on is ....dun dun dunnnnn Graphics.

VII has far more to do and far more involvement
than XIII from gameplay perspective and this isn't an opinion, don't kid yourself that it is.

You are actually arguing that we can't compare XIII with VII because of the time gap....well, that is just a bizarre and ridiculous position I am not sure why I responded to it!

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But you are not arguing about standards. XIII's production values are on another planet compared to VII.

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and yet they spent this time polishing single rocks for 3 days? Maybe VII just made better use of the money because it had to? And XIII doesn't so they don't care?

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And your gripes with XIII seem to be based on personal preference

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When they take away choice that is a flaw

When they take away interactive NPC and reduce their number massively that is a flaw

When they keep you to a linear corridor for 90% of the game this is a flaw

When they take away traditional towns that is a flaw

When they take away control of characters that is a flaw

When they stop you choosing who is in your party that is a flaw

When they make the game have too many cutscenes or a bloated story at the expense of gameplay, that is a flaw.

I could go on and on and on. But your logic is that less is better and it is a desperate argument that supposes taking away choice is a good thing.[

It has nothing whatsoever to do with personal preference, this is just a convenient scapegoat. Flaws are flaws.

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27 pounds on Amazon.

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27 pounds is more than I would pay for this loo roll and it is still a hefty fee for a game, 27 or 40, it is still money you expect to give you quality and I doubt you could pick it up brand new for 27 when it came out.


I will stop there, I don't think you have any clue what you are on about, and I am sorry I have just had to tell you it bluntly. :redface:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII had poor story telling/quantity and bad pacing coupled with lack lustre gameplay.

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It's a poor story in your opinion and thats fine; however, myself and many others thought that it was a very well written story and a breath of fresh air. Just because it's written differently doesn't automatically make it bad. It's a much more straight forward plot with little twists and turns and more subtle character development.

I'll give you that the pacing in XII wasn't very good, but this had more to do with the size of the dungeons and explorable areas than it did with the writing itself.

As for the gameplay, it's hard for me to comment on a statement as vague as, "it has lack luster game play"; so come up with some specific examples of game play elements you didn't like and I'll address them accordingly.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Story is subjective if there is actually story there.

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What did you do when all the plot points come up, go and get yourself a sandwich and a pop? I'm just going to assume that your purposely exaggerating on that just emphasize your dislike for the story in XII; otherwise I'd have to wonder whether you actually played the game.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII's case it isn't simply a matter of personal taste because there are glaring faults with how much it is lacking and bad pacing, which are not by themselves totally criticisms of the actual quality but rather its presentation, depth and quantity. Arguments can be made that XII was so lacking in this that it's story fell short as a result and I agree with that.

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It is a matter of personal taste, what you see as faults I saw as a breath of fresh air as did others in the fan base. Arguments can be made about the stories in all the final fantasy games, just look around the other forums. Again, the story to XII isn't lacking, its just more plot driven, straight forward, and character development more subtle.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

one thing they BOTH made grievous errors in was balance. XIII has too much story at the expense of gameplay, XII has flawed gameplay but much more than XIII, except the dialogue was bare bones and pacing dire.

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Again, completely opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

, VIII, IX and X got the balance more or less correct for an modern RPG and certainly did a better job than XII and XIII at pleasing the whole spectrum of fan and not just the closed minded tunnel visions who would be happy with anything as long as it has a bit of flash, a scantily clad female and Final Fantasy written on the case.

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Whether those games got the balance correct is again opinion, I personally didn't think X was that balanced at all; in fact I typically claim it suffers from the same problems others have been ranting on XIII about. But hey thats only my opinion. As for those games pleasing the whole spectrum, all those games you've mentioned get their fair share of criticism and hate just like all the rest in the series.

I'm just going to leave that part I just bolded alone, though I will ask you to be respectful of those who have an opposing view as yourself.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away choice that is a flaw

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Stop right there.

Choice even in Final Fantasy games is an illusion most of the time. You seem to confuse "choice" in gaming with problem solving and not every decision you make is a choice.

Problems direct you towards a goal and choices let the player choose their goal. Any solution you make in a game that has a "best answer" or solution is a problem. For example, deciding in Final Fantasy VI to use the magicte to get a sword or an exclusive summon is a problem not a choice. Choicing to get the summon is obviously the best solution as you can steal the sword anyway.

Choices are when your asked to decide between two options of equal value. Like deciding how to set up your party.

Bottom line, "choice" in Final Fantasy games are an illusion most of the time so saying FF XIII is bad for not tricking the player in having a free will doesn't make much sense.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away interactive NPC and reduce their number massively that is a flaw

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NPC = quality

:confused:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they keep you to a linear corridor for 90% of the game this is a flaw

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This is merely a design choice. because a game doesn't have X amount of choice doesn't make it a bad game by any means especially since problem solving is the core of gaming and not choice.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away traditional towns that is a flaw

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And trying something new instead of same old same old is bad? XIII is different and now it sucks. :cry:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away control of characters that is a flaw

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Final Fantasy is about giving your characters orders. You still have control over them, you still decide what they do. XIII is no different unless you like manually putting in the command "attack" a zillion times each battle.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they stop you choosing who is in your party that is a flaw

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Only during certain parts of the game you aren't allowed to do that. Same with every other FF with multiple characters to choose from. So that isn't even a valid complaint.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they make the game have too many cutscenes or a bloated story at the expense of gameplay, that is a flaw.

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Once again based on your personal preferences. Otherwise everyone who is a fan of the visual novel genre would like to have a word with you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I could go on and on and on. But your logic is that less is better and it is a desperate argument that supposes taking away choice is a good thing.[

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There is no "more" or "less" in this case as it is an illusion. It's the same or something different. You either accept that or you don't.

They are flaws, if you consider that this is

a. A final Fantasy game and

b. an RPG

To not have those RPG elements and to remove more besides cannot be seen as anything but a flaw in the design. And choice isn't an illusion.

If I am selecting multiple magics on a menu I am choosing them. If 2 of my characters are AI and the other selects auto battle all the time that is in no way the same thing.

Arguing it is all illusion is again trying to get away from the facts here. The fact is XIII is dumbed down and takes more control away from you than any other main FF game. That is a FACT.

Choice isn't an illusion if I get to choose all my magics and when to use them and how as I do in VII, but am not allowed in XIII. Illusion is a pretty word but you have used it here wrongly.

I get to choose in VII if I want to use items or magics and when.
I get to choose in VII if I want to do minigames at Gold saucer
I get to choose in VII if I want to do the sidequests like Wutai
I get to choose in X whether I defeat the Dark aeons or do the monster hunts

and so forth. It is not an illusion, it is a fact. The word illusion does not apply to my argument at all. In fact this seems like the useless cop out excuses for the linear nature of this game I first heard

"All FF games are linear, it is all an illusion"

What a big cop out that was, what people avoided was the fact that XIII was the most linear of all and to a point that it was too blatant and too restrictive, even stopping you going back to old areas. The come back to that was "I don't want to go back to old areas and I was OK with linear XIII"

Again....this denied those of us who don't like a 100% linear game, the choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

They are flaws, if you consider that this is

a. A final Fantasy game and

b. an RPG

To not have those RPG elements and to remove more besides cannot be seen as anything but a flaw in the design.

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No, maybe from your stand point perhaps, as 90 % of your arguing is about certain aspect being abscent, but since we are talking about both a gaming genre and series that is loosely defined and is going through changes to make them appealing again - especially since we seeing much less of the tradiontial RPG -, your point is pretty much non-existent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

And choice isn't an illusion.

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I didn't say that. I said the supposed choices presented to you in Final Fantasy are more often then not, a problem that must be solved rather then an actual choice. I am not claiming that there are not choices at all. There is a difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I get to choose in VII if I want to use items or magics and when.
I get to choose in VII if I want to do minigames at Gold saucer
I get to choose in VII if I want to do the sidequests like Wutai
I get to choose in X whether I defeat the Dark aeons or do the monster hunts

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Final Fantasy XIII offeres you the exact same amount of choice. Just because it doesn't feature certain extras (because that is what the last three are) it doesn't mean choice is not there.

You can't ride chocobo's in FF IV. Damn it Square, put yourself together, and give me a damn choice. :roll2

A certain feature? Lmao, you almost make it sound like XIII was lacking just the odd one or had the odd problem

haha

Yeah, because actually mini-games are the heart and soul of Final Fantasy and lack of glorious Triple Triad is a stab in the back for the fanbase.

my god

One would reasonably expect a game in a series to improve upon its predecessors...
To be better in some quantifiable sense

quantifiable - definition of quantifiable by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

Just as well there are standards..as Gordon Ramsey likes to say on his kitchen nightmares show...
You can't serve people burned food.You can't pick food off the floor you have dropped and serve to the people.

Of course you could if you were serving them FF....and I agree that is what we are experiencing in the last couple of games.

shrugs...

FF isn't suppose to be barely acceptable.Or mediocre.

mediocre - definition of mediocre by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

It's suppose to be superior to other rpgs.Especially console rpgs.

So while a mediocre game might be acceptable for another rpg company to make..they can get away with it..Square shouldn't make a mediocre FF game.

That's my opinion.

Can you enjoy a mediocre game ?
Of course you can.

But the expectations of FF fans should be higher than that.

just my opinion.


:roll2

Please don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying XIII is the best thing to happen to the series since ever. They were just experimenting and some fans didn't like it. Too bad. The only thing that I don't like is people like seiferalmasy who say that that the complaints this game got are facts and that is has been universally proven this game is crap. That is hilariously ignorant and close-minded to say the least.

Get of your smurfing high horse.

Of course I hasve been on the other end of the argument.
For all those who criticize him imagine if you treated those of us who feel the game is flawed like you claim he is treating you. Worse than that.

So I heve been on the other end of it..seen it firsthand....

It's opinion.

The only fact is that the game exists.The rest is opinion.

You can argue that fans should have standards and should expect something better than what we have received from Square...

Like you said, this is all opinions. They aren't going to change. :D

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Originally Posted by Rozaheku

Yeah, because actually mini-games are the heart and soul of Final Fantasy and lack of glorious Triple Triad is a stab in the back for the fanbase.

my god

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Again you cite 1 example, and yes this was something that XIII didn't bother to include, a proper minigame or diversion. If you had opened your eyes you would have seen a rather larger list that people keep bringing up time and again, myself included.

Now you are trying to get round it by citing 1 or 2 examples and portraying the problem as status quo for a FF game. It isn't status quo and no matter how much you want it to be these flaws aren't going to be swept under the rug. Where are the cloister of trials? Where is the Tomb of the unknown King? Where is the Chocobo breeding? Card games? Blitzball? Where is the Wutai sidequests? Auction house? Friends quest? Skipping? Chocobo Hot and Cold! Materia Caves, Secret places like Remiem Temple, Exploration of old areas for story and items, clever places like Ultimecia's castle, Gold Saucer, stellazio coins, clever ways to find or obtain Summons, Qu's Marsh, Enemy skill learning, things to do with the limit gauges like renzokuken or Auron's combination, ultimate enemies? Where are all these things that made an FF game have depth and choice and things to do aside from battling and story? I could go on forever with this....

I mean where is it? This game is BARON. And why should I and others like me be happy that this was taken out and we weren't even given a choice?

This game has some glaring faults, and some of them are criminal for an RPG. An RPG with restrictions on exploration, interactive NPC, side quests, diversions, minigames, character control, and traditional towns is at odds with that we judge an RPG by and the things that actually make a game an RPG.

Please stop trying to suggest this is a small problem here- it is much larger and there are numerous things wrong with XIII which is why I and many others dislike it. FF7 had its faults, so did every FF game, but none of these faults were so numerous as this or a deal breaker.

This game is so flawed it makes XII look like a masterpiece.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Where are the cloister of trials? Where is the To,b of the unknown King? Where is the Chocobo breeding? Card games? Blitzball? I mean where is it?

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I'm sorry but do you except all of that shoehorned is one FF game? And also, abscence of mini-games don't make any game bad. That's super nitpicky.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

This game has some glaring faults, and some of them are criminal for an RPG. An RPG with restrictions on exploration, interactive NPC, side quests, diversions, minigames, character control, and traditional towns is at odds with that we judge an RPG by and the things that actually make a game an RPG.

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Correction, what you think makes an RPG. Genres evolve over time whetever you like it or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Let's not get back to the old flawed argument of "You haven't even played it"

- I have watched hours of video and walk through material of it in both Japanese and English

- I have read dozens of Reviews good and bad

- I have read comments on this and other forums

- We have review sites for precisely the reason of working out whether we want to buy it WARNING WARNING PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF THIS PLEASE MAKE A NOTE OF THIS!!!! PLEASE READ READ READ READ!!!!!!

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Actually, let's. By your logic:

I know what it feels like being on heroin because
- I've watched hours of documentaries and movies on it
- I've read articles on it
- I have heard what people have said about it.

Actually, heroin works better with this argument because at least there are peer reviewed articles on the effects of heroin. There aren't any such things about FFXIII.

Rozaheku has done a good job at explaining the difference between extras and core gameplay. Yes, XIII was extreme in it's linearity. But no Final Fantasy has been an open-ended Bioware kind of affair. They have all been linear. XIII just took away the illusion of freedom. And yes, it is very easy for the guys who made VII to just paint a little island there and draw one scene (and in VII, they literally did draw the backgrounds) with a crystal in it and 3 lines of dialogue. Yes, the extras were cool. And the NPCs were alright (although again, nothing much spectacular happened when you spoke to them). But, I most certainly don't think VII is good because it had the Golden Saucer, Chocobo Breeding or optional characters (and honestly, as Vincent is one of the more influential characters in the background to the story, it is more bad planning that he wasn't compulsory).

Same with VIII. And bringing in X as an argument against linearity is absurd. You can fight Dark Aeons? I can fight many more optional monsters in XIII. What do Dark Aeons have that these monsters don't. And you can go Monster Hunting in X so you can fight super monsters. Sounds like fun, but honestly, killing 5 or 10 of each beast is anything but. It gets boring. Quickly. At least XIII has Gran Pulse where you feel like you are in a massive environment and you can go in any direction. Calm Lands is like the Archylte Steppe lite-lite.

I'm not praising XIII for being linear. But neither am I criticising it for it either. In the context of the game, it worked. XIII focused on the core of the game and not distractions from it. Which I believe is the key ingredient. If I really wanted to race chocobos, I would go buy a chocobo racing game.

And choice isn't necessarily a good thing. This isn't my opinion either. Modern Economics, and in particular Game Theory, have shown that life is a non-parametric and therefore options can actually be detrimental to the utility of an individual (and that is a fact, not an opinion).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Which she explains as being worried of what he might do, that he might go crazy. So no, this isn't a plot hole, it is explained in Midhir (Mideel)

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This being the same guy who randomly fell on the floor holding his head and shaking it strangely, who dressed up as a woman and who tells everyone (and with belief too) that he was in SOLDIER, even though he most certainly wasn't. Sounds like it's a bit late for her to worry about him going crazy. And surely she should be curious as to why he knows so much about the Nibelheim incident, but she didn't see him there. But it's fine. As long as there's a sentence that makes no rational sense in there explaining it, all's good. An alien could have also popped down and said they temporarily borrowed her memory. Would that be cool too?

And the World Map does not count as exploration, because what you are mostly exploring is.........NOTHING! All you do is fly the airship around and look at all the places you haven't seen yet, et VOILA, exploration done. The World Map is again nothing more than an illusion of grand spaces.

So, I am happy with a game which has a core that is great, that is fun to play, that has an interesting story, that is immensely polished and is unbelievably stylish, even if it means sacrificing some distractions. I think XIII worked for me because I didn't have a chance to catch my breath, because I had to keep on pushing on. Yes, I may not replay it in a while, but I never really replayed any other FF either.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ANGRYWOLF

Of course I hasve been on the other end of the argument.
For all those who criticize him imagine if you treated those of us who feel the game is flawed like you claim he is treating you. Worse than that.

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I would respect his opinion more if he played the game. Argument relating to that is at the top of this post.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rozaheku

Quote:

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

This game has some glaring faults, and some of them are criminal for an RPG. An RPG with restrictions on exploration, interactive NPC, side quests, diversions, minigames, character control, and traditional towns is at odds with that we judge an RPG by and the things that actually make a game an RPG.

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Correction, what you think makes an RPG. Genres evolve over time whetever you like it or not.

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Beat me to it.

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abscence of mini-games don't make any game bad. That's super nitpicky.

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No, it is a fault with the design. To not include something that VII, VIII, IX, X and even XII managed to some degree is a glaring fault. It isn't nitpicky to suggest that having so much of the substance taken away is a bad thing and taking choice away is a bad thing., Your position on this is frankly, utterly absurd.

Quote:

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Correction, what you think makes an RPG. Genres evolve over time whetever you like it or not.

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No, correction, what the creator of the RPG genre says it is.

GZay2Stay's reader review of Final Fantasy XIII for PlayStation 3

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"If the main selling point of the software is the non-interactive story scenes rather than the actual gameplay then it's not a game." ~ Shigeru Miyamoto (Director: Super Mario 64, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time)

"If a games designer chooses to have the story be the most important part of the video game then they must find a way to tell it interactively to the player. Even if it's a strictly linear and pre-scripted story, there needs to be some form of interactivity from the player when it's being presented. To have the most important part of a video game not require any interactivity from the player is a serious game design mistake." ~ Fumito Ueda (Director: Ico, Shadow of the Colossus)

"The most important part of a RPG is the player feeling like they are taking the role of a character in a fully realised fantasy world. They can explore, visit various towns and places, talk to people, customise their character, collect various items, and defeat monsters. The story is not the focus of the experience and is only there to make the atmosphere of the fantasy world more interesting and engaging during the course of the game." ~ Yuji Horii (Creator of the JRPG genre/ Supervisor: Chrono Trigger)

"Although the FF series has greatly advanced over the years, it's still a RPG. FF tends to be mostly story driven so I always try to balance the experience by putting more effort into the RPG gameplay." ~ Hiroyuki Itou (Director: FFVI, FFIX, FFXII)

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An RPG is a criteria of things and if you miss out a lot of that then it is no longer an RPG. In fact XIII design team Toriyama: Final Fantasy XIII Is Like An FPS | Game Stooge did suggest that this was designed with FPS in mind.

Genres do evolve, but they generally expand and improve on a winning formula, something this game DID NOT DO. FACT. FF7 expanded and improved on FF1. FFXIII does not improve on VII or X or even XII gameplay wise.

I notice you don't come back at any of these faults accepting that to leave them out is a bad thing. You want me to accept that to have LESS is better or normal and that I should just accept it all as cool and progress? GET REAL! What an absurd position to hold. It is just absurd! ABSURD. :jess:

@ Seifer

I dislike FFXIII so it pains me to now have to defend it, but mate, you're talking nonsense. I can't stand the game because it doesn't appeal to me, primarily for most of the reasons you're putting forward. But i can see that this is my personal preference and not because the game is flawed. It has a few actual flaws, but every reason you've given is simply opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away choice that is a flaw

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No it isn't. They sacraficed choice to focus on the story, just as XII sacraficed story to focus on gameplay. Not every FF has to follow strict structure based off previous FF titles.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away interactive NPC and reduce their number massively that is a flaw

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NPC's are present, but instead of reading text they are voiced. If you stand close to an NPC they will begin talking. Have you played the game? If you had then you would know this. I guess all those reviews you read can't tell you everything.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they keep you to a linear corridor for 90% of the game this is a flaw

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FFX was guilty of the same thing. It didn't hinder FFX's success and aparantley it's not going to hinder XIII's. So again, not a flaw.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away traditional towns that is a flaw

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I missed towns and so did a lot of other people on this forum. SE's reasoning for not having towns does actually qualify this as a flaw, but unfortunatley for you it still comes down to opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they take away control of characters that is a flaw

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It certainly is. But you're exaggerating. You have much less conntrol, but by no means is it taken away completley. The auto-battle command won't always do what you want it to do, and even if it did you still have the option to provide commands manually. Two characters are uncontrollable but you still affect how the AI controls them. I can't believe i'm sticking up for this because i hate it, but the sizable amount of people who enjoy the system would argue against you, which brings this one down to opinion again.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they stop you choosing who is in your party that is a flaw

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Now this really does show the holes in your arguement. The FF games you seem to regard so highly (VI,VII,VIII,IX and X) are ALL guilty of this. Every FF will push unwanted characters into your party if they are required for plot, and take them away if that character needs to be somewhere else. You havn't played the game so will you even be able to tell me exactly when characters are being shifted around and when you are able to pick your own party? Your arguement has pretty just become invalid completley because it's just become clear you have no idea what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

When they make the game have too many cutscenes or a bloated story at the expense of gameplay, that is a flaw.

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What do you consider to be "too many cutscenes". This again is down to preference and opinion and is not a flaw.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

It has nothing whatsoever to do with personal preference, this is just a convenient scapegoat. Flaws are flaws.

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And you have yet to give a single one. I could name a few genuine flaws for you, but i don't care enough to help you

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No, it is a fault with the design. To not include something that VII, VIII, IX, X and even XII managed to some degree is a glaring fault.

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Right, sorry for thinking we weren't talking about expansion packs here instead of sequels who have the potential to approach things from a new and exciting perspective if the developers want to and are creative enough.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

taking choice away is a bad thing.

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there
is
a
difference
between
choice
and
problem
solving
which
disguises
itself
as
choice
most
of
the
time

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No, correction, what the creator of the RPG genre says it is.

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I can also pick random people from the street and ask what they think makes the perfect cup of coffee. Be them regular people, or the first guy who thought it was a good idea to make a drink out of beans.

That wasn't a random guy it was one of the main guys involved in Jrpg and supervisor of chrono trigger. Again your lack of comebacks to my points and argument show you up ;)

From now on I will just send a mega post to people who ask the question or make a point. I am going round in circles here when all it needs is 1 large post every now and then :)

And people/teams can't have different options? That's the reason why RPG's aren't exact copies of each other.

Good luck with going around in circles.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

That wasn't a random guy it was one of the main guys involved in Jrpg and supervisor of chrono trigger. Again your lack of comebacks to my points and argument show you up ;)

From now on I will just send a mega post to people who ask the question or make a point. I am going round in circles here when all it needs is 1 large post every now and then :)

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Someone who hates XIII had to defend the game. Think that makes it a fairly good comeback.

And there are no strict genres anymore. According to your definition of RPGs, all the Jak games are RPGs. And there are many FPS which have you level up and chat to NPCs in towns etc (I think Unreal 2 was one of these). And the space game Freelancer also would classify as a RPG. Games are-a-changing, and we need to accept that.

I believe = my opinion.

Obtuse enough for you..rotfl...

I don't agree that the eliminationof things that were well received in previous FF games is progress.

To me it seems like regression.

Devolution and not evolution.

We're all different.

There are certain things in rpgs I prefer. Believe should be there for the game to be a real rpg.

Others can disagree if they so choose.

Doesn't mean their beliefs /opinions are absurd.

They are entitled to their opinion even if I find them perplexing/can't understand their reasoning/rationale.

I can see that the PS3 might be difficult to program for..I have heard that argument from other game makers...and maybe that is why Square is having difficulty in doing more..but it's not like they didn't know what would be a problem and they should have had ample time to research those problems and come up with workable solutions.

Anyway..I guess I am starting to get tired of this...so lets move on

I'd agree with you angrywolf that it is opinion but when we are talking about taking away A LOT of what made Final Fantasy good and what makes a game have gameplay and nothing is added to replace it...

How can it be an opinion that this is a backward step? If anything it is purely logical and accurate to call this a flaw and a regression, not an opinion.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I'd agree with you angrywolf that it is opinion but when we are talking about taking away A LOT of what made Final Fantasy good and what makes a game have gameplay and nothing is added to replace it...

How can it be an opinion that this is a backward step? If anything it is purely logical and accurate to call this a flaw and a regression, not an opinion.

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I adressed your "flaws" already.

After the amount of FFXII bashing you've done, i'd of thought FFXIII was exactly what you'd wanted. You complained at every aspect of FFXII and SE addressed every complaint and gave you exactly what you asked for - an emotional story driven game with no gambits and no exploration.

I dislike FFXIII, nothing within the game suits me. But i recognize what SE were trying to achieve and apreciate that there is merit despite it not being to my tastes.

I think the very fact that so many people enjoy this game means SE at least did something right. Nobody is denying you the right to dislike the game or to have Opinions but it's kind of sad that you can't accept that it is simply not to your tastes and feel the need to convince people you are right and your opinions are fact. Your poll is also a sad attempt to try and justify your opinions but inevitabley it wont solve anything.

It didn't address my complaints at all as I have repeated to you 100X,

Its story was bloated and too cutscene heavy, it forced you to read data logs. That isn't what I wanted.

It sacrificed even more gameplay for story and got the balance wrong, that isn't what I wanted.

It had linear corridors for ...look we have been through this 100X

XII didn't give me what I wanted, nor did XIII. They both got it wrong and got balance wrong.

VII, VIII,IX and X gave me what I wanted.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

XII didn't give me what I wanted, nor did XIII. They both got it wrong and got balance wrong.

VII, VIII,IX and X gave me what I wanted.

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Then play them. VII, VIII & now IX (bought it, now just need to download it: YAY!) are all available on the PSN. And think about the benefits. You'll never need to buy another console or any new games, because you'll have exactly what you want. As you said, gameplay is way more important than graphics, so you'll have everything you want.

And XIII hasn't given you anything as you are yet to purchase it. There is a clear diametric opposition when one argues that a game lacks gameplay when the arguer has not in fact actually played the game and therefore has no idea what the gameplay is actually like firsthand. And you may be able to piece individual components of the game by opinions and reviews, but a game is a holistic experience which one can only enjoy by playing it. Unless you're that guy's girlfriend in the Sony PS3 advert (the one about Uncharted). She clearly could enjoy it.

I do play them. But I would much rather play the new games had they been decent and added to the series rather than subtracting. I am not sure how many more times you want me to repeat myself but I am game if you are, my resolve is pretty strong, I can tell you ;)

I don't need psn, I have FF7 and 8 on PC and they are miles better on it. I have 9 and 10 on emulators.

murgh....im almost at the point where i just might not come into this side of the forums anymore. i want to, because i love this game and i want to read constructive threads on it, but i am being pushed away with the constant arguing and undermining.

i DO believe everyone is entitled to their OPINIONS, but that's just what they are. it seems too much of what i see is people stating their opinions as fact, and telling others that theirs are wrong. and that, my friends, is just not right. is it gonna happen anyway? absolutely. but come on guys....it is so painstakingly obvious that there are people who like this game and always will and will fight for it, and there are those that don't and will fight for that.

for me, an FF game means a few very simple things: chocobos, spells that end with -ra and -aga, a guy named cid, and some classic references to prior entries. they do not need to be set up to play or unfold comparatively to said entries. they are not even true sequels, they are stand alone entities that are their own games, and must be played and liked (or disliked) by their own merits.

seriously, i know it 100% futile to say...let it go, let's all just agree to disagree, and move on to more enlightening conversations, but for smurf's sake....this is getting really redundant. there is a flaw thread. there is a love and a strength thread. this is all up to personal preference, as with any game. i've already posted my points for why i like this game in other threads, and i don't intend to keep repeating myself as i just don't have that much patience. this game absolutely suits me, but that doesn't mean that i've forgotten what other games are like either. it just means i choose to enjoy games based on the individual experience, not by comparing it to every other game that i happen to enjoy.

i'm not telling anyone to let go of their opinions, i'm just asking not to be so forceful and hostile towards others. the only facts known about the game are that it is, indeed, a video game. everything else is opinion. i just want to see these forums return to a friendly and constructive state, as that's why i became interested in joining in the first place.

You chose to come to this thread where you knew complaints about the game were being made.

If you don't like those then I suggest you don't come to this thread or to the flaws thread.
Stay on the love or strengths thread and express your love for the game.

smile.

I do agree with seifer like I have said.

I believe by watching videos and reading reviews he formulated an opinion about the game he is entitled to have.
Just like the people who like the game and have played it have formulated their favorable opinions about the game.

shrugs.

I do think seifer has said more than enough about the game and needs to let it drop and move on.
I'm ready to so this is the last post I intend to make about FFXIII.

smile.

So you guys have fun.:p

uuuhhh, when did i ever say that i don't like other people's opinions? never. my point was that recently there's been too much of a bad air surrounding those opinions and the ensuing discussions. i thought i'd made that clear, but here i go again....

yes i came in here full aware that complaints were being made but all i'm trying to get at is the same things are being said over and over, with no real resolution at all to the arguments. and i say...what's the point in continuing on when we know one side is never going to agree with the other?

i like anyone else on here is up for a good debate but most of these arguments have gone past the point of debates to just being people trying endlessly to shove their opinions down others throats.

i DO tend to stick to the love and strength thread, but even there i see people making complaints occasionally. EVERYWHERE in this forum there are complaints made. it's quite obvious i couldn't get away from it even if i wanted to, so whatever. that's fine. again, not my point.

that's great you agree with seifer, i don't. many people don't and others do, as has been demonstrated time and time again. it's fine to feel how you want, because it's YOUR feelings. i just think enough (WAY more than enough in some cases) has been said, points have been made, time to move on. which you, it seems, are respectfully doing so kudos.

ahhh, screw it. i just wanted everyone to have a hug lol

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I do play them. But I would much rather play the new games had they been decent and added to the series rather than subtracting.

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Your idea of adding to the series is keeping everything to the way it was, while there is nothing wrong with that, is called stagnation rather then adding. Your argument is already nonsensical as XIII neither drew inspiration from VII nor was it labeled to be its spiritual successor in any way aside from being hyped as just as innovative.

And it's fine that you have resolve but would you then please not neglect my arguments by repeating yourself, saying: "aren't you listening? I have proven my point a million times already!" or resort to incredible annoying really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. tactics?

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Originally Posted by Rozaheku

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

I do play them. But I would much rather play the new games had they been decent and added to the series rather than subtracting.

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Your idea of adding to the series is keeping everything to the way it was, while there is nothing wrong with that, is called stagnation rather then adding. Your argument is already nonsensical as XIII neither drew inspiration from VII

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Nobody said it did draw inspiration from VII, that is a really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. right there ;) I said that each game generally evolves to better itself and so FF7 is an improvement on the formula of FF1 and even 6.

However, XIII has thrown the formula away, yes that is a fact. It has thrown away many things like traditional towns and control of all party members and replaced them with nothing which is decent.

I am afraid you cannot argue that improvement is getting rid of core ideas and systems and replacing them with nothing. There really is no argument to be had here. No opinion. It really is as basic as it sounds: When you take away from something which has worked for years and don't add anything to replace it, you are dumbing down and subtracting.

You are not adding to it and you are not improving on the one which went before. Hence XIII is statistically the worst scored FF game from VII-XII.

RPG's have a set formula of things that make it an RPG (that is what chrono trigger supervisor and creator of jrpg says). YÅ«ji Horii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And when you remove or severely subtract traditional towns, interactive NPC, minigames, sidequests, choosable characters, menu choices, character control

You are destroying what makes it an RPG. Again this isn't an opinion, it is a bare faced fact. You cannot take away all these things that a lot of people find fun, replace with dumbed down gameplay or just simply nothing, and expect that game to be called new, innovative, evolved or improved.

Sorry. Logic doesn't work that way, and nor does the world. I have no doubt you will somehow find a way to argue with this, but 1+ -1 does not equal 2.

statistically? you're talking like it's a proven fact that this is an awful game, which is just ridiculous to claim. like scientists sat in a lab somewhere and did ph tests on the thing and came to the conclusion that it's poison and those affected by it are obviously mindlessly following the people who deployed said poison. no....that's not how it works.

you're stating your opinions about this game, whether the flaws it has are real or not, and there are many people out there who have enjoyed the game for what it is despite those "flaws". personally, i didn't criticize this game for lacking certain things, mostly because i didn't take those things for granted in the first place when i experienced them before. the developers weren't trying to create a completely traditional RPG that conforms to the same formula and standards that previous games did, they were trying to do something DIFFERENT. break the mold. trim the fat. whatever you want to call it. whether or not you like what they did is, like i said, your OPINION.

which just goes back to what i was just saying before which is being ignored. enough is enough already....you can't change how people feel about it, so please stop trying to state your opinions as facts and just concede that we're not going to agree in this matter. i've been in so many different threads and the same things are being thrown around over and over with no real agreement or conclusion being met. write a letter or something if it bothers you so much :D you've stated your reasoning for feeling the way you do, and countless others have done the same in retaliation. for god's sakes, will it ever end!?

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Originally Posted by finaloblivion

for god's sakes, will it ever end!?

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Probably not, no. For every person who thinks X is great about the game, there will be every person who thinks X and Y are horrid, and should have been done differently, or whatever. Personally, I think it was great. Very little flaws in my opinion. I liked the story, and I liked how linear it was.

Going by metacritic and the main magazines and the user scores, yes XIII does come out statistically bottom by score:

Final Fantasy XIII: How Does It Compare? - Metacritic

and you might have loved how linear it was, other people don't and were forced to regardless. That's the difference here. In VII-X you could choose to make it literally linear or explore.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Going by metacritic and the main magazines and the user scores, yes XIII does come out statistically bottom by score:

Final Fantasy XIII: How Does It Compare? - Metacritic

and you might have loved how linear it was, other people don't and were forced to regardless. That's the difference here. In VII-X you could choose to make it literally linear or explore.

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You are trying too hard :p , There's nothing to be gained in making someone like FFXII or FFXIII annoyed while reading your posts simply because it seems like you're insulting them. Seriously, there's nothing wrong with other people enjoying FFXIII and FFXII--nothing at all. Now, If you want to criticize it, please do, but in The Flaw thread.

I don't think presenting facts to the argument when it has been denied is trying to hard, it is just doing what a good arguer should.

In any case, I will keep to the flaw thread if you keep your lot out of it....

:D

lmao, who's forcing anyone to play anything? if you start playing the game and it's too linear for your tastes, then stop playing! or, you can be like shin and at least play through once and do what you can to see if said game is to your tastes, or if it isn't. or, we can be like you and angrywolf and read reviews and watch videos and formulate your opinion (which there's nothing wrong with you having) from that about how it's too linear and then choose not to play it. no one's forcing anyone man, that's just silly talk.

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Originally Posted by Beowulf

Personally, I think it was great. Very little flaws in my opinion. I liked the story, and I liked how linear it was.

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high five on that! but the main point of my quoting you was the word "personally"....everyone's allowed to have their own personal opinions, seifer. it just seems like you've gone too far in some cases with trying to prove your point and i think we should all try and just clear that bad air and return to at least some constructive talks. im not trying to single you out because there are others, but your is the name i see pop up the most throughout spouting this stuff out.

but you're right beowulf...it prolly won't end and that's fine. at least i tried :P

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

Going by metacritic and the main magazines and the user scores, yes XIII does come out statistically bottom by score:

Final Fantasy XIII: How Does It Compare? - Metacritic

and you might have loved how linear it was, other people don't and were forced to regardless. That's the difference here. In VII-X you could choose to make it literally linear or explore.

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My favorite part of that article -

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and it actually follows a game widely considered one of the best (if not the best) in the series: Final Fantasy XII.

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Kind of shot yourself in the foot there eh? ;)

No, not really, because the scores show XIII is statistically the lowest and XII is one of the lowest by the big magazines user ratings I compared/

Your come back is of course a choice quote....great at debating you are not ;)


oh and as for the "no one's forcing you to play", we have seen that tired argument used too often and I am afraid it doesn't wash. people pay good money for games and thus have the right to complain, and others liked the series and now feel cheated by what is going on and also have the right to complain.

Stop telling people to stop complaining, we have as much right as you.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

people pay good money for games and thus have the right to complain, and others liked the series and now feel cheated by what is going on and also have the right to complain.

Stop telling people to stop complaining, we have as much right as you.

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People pay good money -> right to complain.

People don't pay good money -> no right to complain.

You can say that you don't think Final Fantasy 13 is not your cup of tea and that the series has gone downhill in your opinion. Fine.

But you cannot argue that XIII is a bad game. The average score is above 8, therefore it is good. You cannot argue that linearity is bad. It needs to be taken as part of the entire game. You cannot say the battle system is bad. Again, it needs to be placed within the entirety of the game. And possibly have tried the system too.

What you are trying to tell us is that a game needs to be made up of X, Y & Z, and it is as good as the sum of these parts. But a game does not need to be made up of specific components nor is the quality of the game a nice tidy sum. Each component interacts with other components and therefore a game needs to measured as a whole, not a bunch of components. Yes, we all agree that XIII is linear. We all agree that the battle system automates a lot. Where we disagree is that these two characteristics make the game bad.

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Originally Posted by seiferalmasy2

No, not really, because the scores show XIII is statistically the lowest and XII is one of the lowest by the big magazines user ratings I compared/

Your come back is of course a choice quote....great at debating you are not ;)


oh and as for the "no one's forcing you to play", we have seen that tired argument used too often and I am afraid it doesn't wash. people pay good money for games and thus have the right to complain, and others liked the series and now feel cheated by what is going on and also have the right to complain.

Stop telling people to stop complaining, we have as much right as you.

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I gave up "debating" with you a long time ago. You ignore or disregard anything anyone says and simply repeat the same nonsense over and over again. As soon as you started stating opinions as fact, i decided my time would be better spent elsewhere.

But i just had to comment on that last bit lol. Whichever way you put it, the article you used as evidence to prove FFXIII's failure just claimed FFXII to be the best in the series. That's a whole new level of kickass :D

My fundamental problem with this game is that the game was too linear and the story really did not make sense. I think they captured the concept of character and character development amazingly, but the story and the plot really didn't make much sense. A lot of the story had to be read, and exposition is usually introduced through gameplay and CG sequences, not by having you read. But I suppose kids don't read enough so that is good.

Also, the gameplay itself was lacklustre. Battles were mostly automated. The inventory and equipment system had not real thought to it other than that you didn't need to do anything but farm one monster at the end to make money and upgrade the equipment. And, there was no incentive to do all the missions other than completionist agendas. They didn't have great rewards that could make the end game easier, because most of them unlocked AFTER endgame.

BTW, you can have really solid character develop when they interact with one another, but that doesn't make the story make sense. It just makes the characters believable, but it falls apart when the story itself doesn't really explain itself or make sense.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

BTW, you can have really solid character develop when they interact with one another, but that doesn't make the story make sense. It just makes the characters believable, but it falls apart when the story itself doesn't really explain itself or make sense.

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Finding the game too linear is a personal preference. I will agree with you on items and customisation - I really didn't bother with that at all. But I found the battle system quite enjoyable. I think that if you have levelled up your characters, it could be very stale, but I finished the game with not one role completed for any character.

But you're going to have to be more specific why the story doesn't make sense. I found it fairly comprehensible from the dialogue apart from (SPOILER)Vanille pretending to be Ragnarok - didn't catch that being mentioned .

good god man...i'm not telling you you don't have a right to complain, but seriously YOU didnt pay good money and the people who did sure...that's their choice though. sometimes it doesn't always work out in their favor. people choosing to spend the money is their own choice, no one's putting a gun to their head and telling them to go out and buy it is what im saying, and you seem to have missed that point. that's always a risk you take when picking up a new video game at the store, is it not?

also, while metacritic found it might "statistically" be the worst FF, it also got an 89 composite score. and like supernova said, 8 and above is not bad whatsoever. if it had a score below a 70? then people might be concerned about what's going on but it DIDNT. also, to sit there and use metacritic as a choice in your argument is well...nonsensical. the same metacritic gave MGS4 a what, 95? which you also said is a bad, no TERRIBLE, game. so, it doesn't really suit your argument. and like the pople above me said, the same site listed XII as being the best FF, which is also another game you claim is just awful. contradictions abound, my friend.

and for the love of all that is holy...again, i NEVER said no one isn't entitled to their opinion or their right to complain. all i was suggesting was the hostile air around the discussions be lifted and people (namely you) stop trying to state all your opinions as fact to people who clearly disagree. it's ok to disagree, we're all human. if you want to say they're fact? well...look at my above response and the other users above that. using metacritic to statistically downplay XIII isn't really working too well.

again, you didn't spend the money so why are you so worked up about being cheated? it's a hit and miss industry man. sure some people come to expect a certain standard from FF titles, and a lot had those needs met (including me). it all comes down to personal preference. some people HATE VII, which is one of the games you use in your arguments against others that didn't follow its example. there's something for everyone in the series, but maybe not in every game. yeah?

I suggest you look at the other thread, the poll one. XIII rates by magazines and users, overwhelmingly bottom. I didn't have time to compare everything, but it is bottom and that's that. Even IGN gave it less than 9 and that's a first for a main FF game.

I didn't pay for this game no, but it is my right to criticise and that's tuff ma boy ;)

a. I once loved this series as a whole and it is going down the drain, that's why I am "worked up".

b. Hit and miss. yes, XII, X-2, XIII and all these cash in spin offs have been largely miss if the majority are to be believed.

How much more miss do you think is acceptable?

Up to Final fantasy MCMXCVII perhaps?

6,7,8,9,10 weren't hit or miss so again this is another of your diversions....

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

BTW, you can have really solid character develop when they interact with one another, but that doesn't make the story make sense. It just makes the characters believable, but it falls apart when the story itself doesn't really explain itself or make sense.

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Finding the game too linear is a personal preference. I will agree with you on items and customisation - I really didn't bother with that at all. But I found the battle system quite enjoyable. I think that if you have levelled up your characters, it could be very stale, but I finished the game with not one role completed for any character.

But you're going to have to be more specific why the story doesn't make sense. I found it fairly comprehensible from the dialogue apart from (SPOILER)Vanille pretending to be Ragnarok - didn't catch that being mentioned .

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the Fal'Cie dynamic really did not make any sense. Since Fal'Cie were built for one purpose, why was Pulse ever created by the Fal'Cie. How did they somehow "break" their purpose. Or is it analogous to Christiandom that Lucifer had a purpose, and it was to eventually turn against God (something fabricated by John Milton).

I mean, the over-all arch of the characters and why they were on the mission they were on made sense, but the premise of the missions necessity and why the Pulse Fal'Cie wanted to destroy Cocoon made absolutely not sense. And Barthandalus, while having the best boss music for an FF in a long time, made no sense as a villain in theory, because, as a Cocoon Fal'Cie, why was he trying to destroy everyone to bring back the Goddess. Was that his purpose? I thought Fal'Cie didn't have free-will, per say.

And Orphan was just stupid. The fact that he existed inside the dreams of Eden. I mean, it was just so full of meta garbage that wasn't explained.

And the way the story was told through the log was a terrible decision. Exposition should have been woven through the dialogue. It was just bad story-telling.

And as far as battles, they were boring whether you leveled everyone up or not. And the premise of if the leader falls in battle, you have to restart is just so silly. I also didn't like that I couldn't change my leader mid-battle. The paradigm system was cool and all, but the fact that I used auto-attack almost exclusively wasn't something I'd call gameplay. Granted, neither was any previous FF title, since it was all just menus, but at least I manually selected the spell.

I did appreciate the flashiness of attack. But as a personal note, I'd rather have had cooler magic abilities. Even though magic was important to break monsters, it wasn't nearly as cool. It was also terrible in XII too. But that's just because I like pretty things that make big explosions.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

BTW, you can have really solid character develop when they interact with one another, but that doesn't make the story make sense. It just makes the characters believable, but it falls apart when the story itself doesn't really explain itself or make sense.

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Finding the game too linear is a personal preference. I will agree with you on items and customisation - I really didn't bother with that at all. But I found the battle system quite enjoyable. I think that if you have levelled up your characters, it could be very stale, but I finished the game with not one role completed for any character.

But you're going to have to be more specific why the story doesn't make sense. I found it fairly comprehensible from the dialogue apart from (SPOILER)Vanille pretending to be Ragnarok - didn't catch that being mentioned .

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[/QUOTE]

the Fal'Cie dynamic really did not make any sense. Since Fal'Cie were built for one purpose, why was Pulse ever created by the Fal'Cie. How did they somehow "break" their purpose. Or is it analogous to Christiandom that Lucifer had a purpose, and it was to eventually turn against God (something fabricated by John Milton).[/QUOTE]

I'm assuming you mean Cocoon. i think you're being a bit too limited on the single purpose. Phoenix's purpose was to create light and fire. Eden's was to control knowledge. Barthandelus to act as an intermediary between Fal'Cie and humans. There must be some leeway in their purpose - Phoenix can do it in the sky, Eden in a city etc.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

I mean, the over-all arch of the characters and why they were on the mission they were on made sense, but the premise of the missions necessity and why the Pulse Fal'Cie wanted to destroy Cocoon made absolutely not sense. And Barthandalus, while having the best boss music for an FF in a long time, made no sense as a villain in theory, because, as a Cocoon Fal'Cie, why was he trying to destroy everyone to bring back the Goddess. Was that his purpose? I thought Fal'Cie didn't have free-will, per say.

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The reasons behind the Pulse Fal'Cie's motives were explained in the datalog - [SPOILER] There were in fact a God and a Goddess. The god created the Cocoon Fal'Cie who believed the only way to call him back was through sacrifice. The goddess created the Pulse Fal'Cie who believed they could find a route through the world to find her (hence the continuous terraforming). It was the Goddess who stopped Ragnarok from destroying Cocoon. Whether the two gods are two elements of The Maker is ambiguous, but it is clear that either they or it are constant throughout the story.[/QUOTE]

Barthandelus' purpose was to interact with humans. That is all he could use his magic for. However, he was also the leader of the Sanctum so he could devise a plan to use L'Cie to do his work. So the Fal'Cie were bound to a purpose like a L'Cie were bound to a purpose. They could still have thought against their purpose. And it was not the Cocoon Fal'Cie who created the focus, nor did they do anything deliberate to bring destruction to the world. What they did was manipulate events - it's a subtlety but think it works.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

And Orphan was just stupid. The fact that he existed inside the dreams of Eden. I mean, it was just so full of meta garbage that wasn't explained.

And the way the story was told through the log was a terrible decision. Exposition should have been woven through the dialogue. It was just bad story-telling.

And as far as battles, they were boring whether you leveled everyone up or not. And the premise of if the leader falls in battle, you have to restart is just so silly. I also didn't like that I couldn't change my leader mid-battle. The paradigm system was cool and all, but the fact that I used auto-attack almost exclusively wasn't something I'd call gameplay. Granted, neither was any previous FF title, since it was all just menus, but at least I manually selected the spell.

I did appreciate the flashiness of attack. But as a personal note, I'd rather have had cooler magic abilities. Even though magic was important to break monsters, it wasn't nearly as cool. It was also terrible in XII too. But that's just because I like pretty things that make big explosions.

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I don't think Orphan lives in Eden's dream. It isn't quite so simplistic as that. Just read the locale and Orphan's Cradle exists in another dimension. This dimension is apparently Eden's true form. But I don't think that counts much against the actual story, although it does become metaphysical nonsense.

Apart from the thing about the God & the Goddess and the location of Orphan's Cradle, everything else was made fairly clear through the dialogue (with the one exception I noted). The datalog was designed to just keep everything together and give extra information about locations etc. That's my opinion though.

Finding the battles boring was a personal preference. In the flaws thread, I listed the next 2 faults you have with the battle system, so we're in agreement there. And then for the final fault, I think that I'd rather have the computer automatically select what I was going to do anyway than have to manually select Attack 5 times thirty three thousand times throughout the game. Which is basically what you do in most FFs (or a specific spell if you're in an area where the enemies have elemental weaknesses) for 80-90% of the game.

And yeah, they could have included cool spells like Meteor and Ultima. And the Eidolons were a bit pointless (although, if we're going to be honest, that's been true of all summons since VIII, with the possible exception of IX - possible because I haven't yet played it so don't actually know. Downloaded it off PSN now so that will quickly change).

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

the Fal'Cie dynamic really did not make any sense. Since Fal'Cie were built for one purpose, why was Pulse ever created by the Fal'Cie. How did they somehow "break" their purpose. Or is it analogous to Christiandom that Lucifer had a purpose, and it was to eventually turn against God (something fabricated by John Milton).

I mean, the over-all arch of the characters and why they were on the mission they were on made sense, but the premise of the missions necessity and why the Pulse Fal'Cie wanted to destroy Cocoon made absolutely not sense. And Barthandalus, while having the best boss music for an FF in a long time, made no sense as a villain in theory, because, as a Cocoon Fal'Cie, why was he trying to destroy everyone to bring back the Goddess. Was that his purpose? I thought Fal'Cie didn't have free-will, per say.

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Cocoon was not created by the fal'Cie but by the Goddes Lindzei. She created the Cocoon fal'Cie, while the Maker (most likely a he) created the Pulse fal'Cie.

The reason why Lindzei created Cocoon but datalog entries hint that it was build to counter a threat from somewhere else. The Arks below Cocoon were presumably built for the purpose to act as a training ground, basically making the place a giant military where people could live and be prepared for a war. This is most likely why Lindzei is portrayed as being vile. She offered the people from Pulse to live in a paradise while she actually wanted to use these individuals for her own ends.

Anyway, eventually all the Gods departed from Pulse (all except one) and disappeared to a portal that lies beyond the plane of mortality. The fal'Cie get upset on how the world and the people have gone wrong etc etc and they want to make anything right again to summon the Maker.

Meanwhile, the Pulse fal'Cie Anima launches an attack on Cocoon. Fang and Vanille join in with the fight and Fang get's turned into Ragnarok and shatters Cocoon's shell.
Then the Goddes of death, Etro, interferes. She had been around since the creation of the world but never created or desired anything. She only looked on in her sorrow and pitied mortals as they were destined to die. Therefore, she decided to intervene in the hour of their greatest peril.

She makes Fang human again and turns every L'Cie left on Cocoon to crystal. Then for reasons I forgot (though I'm pretty sure it is explained) the Bodhum with Anima, and Fang Vanille get transported to Cocoon. Anima get's into a coma and the Vestige remains there for several centuries.

Then Anima awakes and the events of Final Fantasy XIII happen you know the story. It actually makes a lot of sense when you sit down and read those damn analects. :p

As for Fal'Cie dynamics, they don't have their own free will. They have great power but are bound to their eternal Focus. They have their own desires but can't pursue what they really want and that is the reason for their suffering.

As seiferalmasy would say it: the story makes sense and that is a FACT. The only difference is that I'm actually open for counter arguments instead of playing a game of really valid point and i'm impressed by your thinking. and selective memory loss. :)

No, the Fal'Cie made Cocoon. Check the Histories and stuff in the data log. But basically everything else is right.

Heh, I'm pretty sure Lindzei made Cocoon.

Right here:

And lo, the viper Lindzei bore fangs into the pristine soil of our Gran Pulse; despoiled the land and from it crafted a cocoon both ghastly and unclean.
Lies spilled forth from the serpent's tongue: 'Within this shell lies paradise.' Men heard these lies and were seduced and led away.

(SPOILER)

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Originally Posted by Datalog: History and Society: Pulse Fal'Cie

Fal'Cie are an existence beyond human comprehension, possessed of incredible magic power. The ones responsible for Cocoon's construction are protectors of humanity, but there are others of their kind as well: the fal'Cie who dwell on Pulse and name themselves enemies of Cocoon.
Humans who encounter Pulse fal'Cie are cursed, being turned to l'Cie and ordered to destroy Cocoon. It is for this reason that most ordinary citizens support the Purge - anyone who may have come into contact with one of these fal'Cie represents a dire threat.

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I don't know if Lindzei actually existed or whether it was a lie that the Pulse Fal'Cie spread. But if you read the last three analects, you get an idea of what is going on.

(SPOILER)
XI. Hypothesis of the Hunt
Obtain: Clear Mission 63: Crushed by Doubt
We've long held the goal of the fal'Cie's endless excavations to be the expansion of the world's inhabitable space-the creation of new lands with which to honor the gods. But I contend this to be false. Their methods lack the order one would expect if that were their purpose, and what's more, they gods they would honor have long since departed this world.
I propose a different explanation: the fal'Cie are hunting. Whether they seek a way to recall the gods or to journey to their side I cannot say, but I do believe the fal'Cie seek their lost deities. They search the earth, the skies, the waters, and even the deep places, seeking a gateway to the Divine.
-- On the Nature of Fal'Cie

XII. The Door of Souls
Obtain: Clear Mission 63: Crushed by Doubt
When our earthly vessels meet their end, the souls they housed must leave this world. Would the path of their migration not be the same one as our departed gods? Must they not pass through the same doorway the Divine employed to reach that place that lies beyond?
If this is the case, it stands to reason that, should a great many lives at once be cut short, a flood of souls would surge through the aforementioned portal. The Door would be thrown wide, and perhaps we might even glimpse the gleaming light of Divinity beyond.
-- On the Nature of Fal'Cie

XIII. Fabula Nova Crystallis
Obtain: Clear Mission 64: The Doomherald
Children of Hallowed Pulse scour earth, searching substance for the Door. Those of Fell Lindzei harvest souls, combing ether for the same. So have I seen.
The Door, once shut, was locked away, with despair its secret key; sacrifice, the one hope of seeing it unsealed.
When the twilight of the gods at last descends upon this world, what emerges from the unseeable expanse beyond that Door will be but music, and that devoid of words: the lamentations of the Goddess Etro, as She sobs Her song of grief.
-- Author unknown

So the Cocoon Fal'Cie believed that the only way they could bring back The Maker through sacrificing humans (XII) and therefore created Cocoon basically as a human breeding ground (that's why they basically created an utopia for humanity).

The Pulse Fal'Cie believed that they could find a way to find the Maker, hence their continuous exploration (XI).

The ambiguous question is whether the Pulse Fal'Cie wished to destroy Cocoon because they were in the same scheme as Barthandelus or whether they wished to get the raw materials of Cocoon (as it was created out of Pulse resources) so as to see whether the key to finding the Maker was in it.

See, that makes no sense. And that IS the story. And I still have a problem with it being spelled out the way it was in the datalog, instead of, you know, actually being part of the game.

But yeah, the story's arch was weak. Again, character build and motivation was superb, but only if you took away the silliness behind the story.

Also, I believe Lindzei is considered to be analogous to Lucifer, because it is occasionally referred to as "The Fell" or "fallen" Lindzei. It just seems ridiculous.

And if Eden IS another dimension, then it's equally stupid. But i thought Eden CREATED that dimension for Orphan.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

See, that makes no sense. And that IS the story. And I still have a problem with it being spelled out the way it was in the datalog, instead of, you know, actually being part of the game.

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We're just using the datalogs to justify our points. I remember there being some dialogue where they say explicitly that Cocoon was fashioned by the Fal'Cie out of Pulse. But I don't understand why the story doesn't make sense. (SPOILER) Cocoon Fal'Cie want to call back the Maker by sacrificing many people. They therefore make this utopia in Cocoon and breed people with the aim to later send it crashing to the ground. And they believe (or have justified) that what they are doing is right: only by calling back The Maker can the world be saved. The stuff in the spoiler may not be provided to the player explicitly, but it is fairly clear. And it's not spelt out in the datalog either.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

But yeah, the story's arch was weak. Again, character build and motivation was superb, but only if you took away the silliness behind the story.

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A story isn't just plot. Some of the greatest novels focus much more on character development than plot lines. XIII is a character driven story and so they succeeded in the main objective: making the characters likeable, believable and then develop them through the external forces of the plot.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

Also, I believe Lindzei is considered to be analogous to Lucifer, because it is occasionally referred to as "The Fell" or "fallen" Lindzei. It just seems ridiculous.

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Yes, and their both associated with snakes etc. But whether there is a God called Lindzei is totally up to speculation. These are Pulsian humans who wrote these analects so they are biased. As both Pulse and Lindzei left, it is more likely that they are both either different manifestations of The Maker or just twisting of facts later on.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

And if Eden IS another dimension, then it's equally stupid. But i thought Eden CREATED that dimension for Orphan.

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No, Eden isn't another dimension but exists in another dimension. If you ever read Terry Pratchett there is something similar in Thief of Time where a clock is built that exists simultaneously in numerous dimensions. Even religions suggest that humans live in more than three dimensions simultaneously. Our physical form resides here but our soul exists in another dimension (which obviously cannot be seen) and is released when the physical form dies.

EDIT: The data log is a bit flawed. Just read it now. Here it is.
(SPOILER)This is the dimension created by the fal'Cie Eden at the command of Barthandelus. The very structure itself is the true form of the being that sits at the center of Cocoon, overseeing the endless functions that keep the floating city running.
The sea of data flowing through Eden has materialized as physical matter, forming a shell that shelter the sleeping Orphan in a space that hovers between reality and dream.

There is a contradiction as Eden cannot create something if its true structure exists within it. Unless Eden created it and then moved across. Regardless, it isn't really important to the story side of things. I agree with you that basically they just created Orphan's Cradle to look cool and then worried about an explanation afterwards.

Off the topic, don't you think that there are similarities between The Matrix and FFXIII. [SPOILER] Human farming, machines with purposes (much like the agents), even the Narthex looks like something that could've come out of the movie (The Architect's kind of building).

EDIT 2: Found some trivia. Maybe Squenix did put some thought into Orphan's cradle.

Trivia: Unusually for a final dungeon, the main body of the area is in fact just one room, the Tesseracts, which reconfigures itself several times. A tesseract is the four-dimensional extension of a cube, sometimes known simply as a hypercube.

Hmmm, that last bit of info is cool. But still, i just feel like the story fell short of a believable concept.

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Originally Posted by Dignified Pauper

Hmmm, that last bit of info is cool. But still, i just feel like the story fell short of a believable concept.

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Hey, it is a fantasy game. It's not going to be believable. The ending may be a little bit confusing (SPOILER) when the characters go from C'Ieth to L'Cie, but I reckon that this is the Maker's intervention and not them reliving their memories.

I think the story is believable because all the characters are acting out in a way that is consistent to the way they have been built up in the game. There are some concepts that are still vague. Do all Fal'Cie have conscious thought? What are their purposes? How did they manage to create Cocoon in the first place (and there I think the designers had some debate, hence the lack of clarity on the matter)? But these are superfluous to the actual story.

My two cents think that the plot is simplistic. But as it is character driven, I don't want 43.4 million plot twists either.

Hmm, that part about the Pulse fal'Cie searching for the portal makes indeed no sense.

Though I'm sure the fal'Cie didn't create Cocoon for soul harvesting because they simply didn't exist before it was created. They were purely made to maintain Cocoon and their creator was a goddes who crafted them after the image of the Pulse fal'Cie who in turn were made by the Maker.

Then again, perhaps Barthandelus is able to create new things for Cocoon? His focus is to be its architect after all. Though I'm sure Lindzei lay the foundation for his work.

They say the fal'Cie made the Arks in preparation for battle against the menace that lurks beyond. Where is this "beyond" of which they speak? Do they mean Cocoon, and the demons that dwells within? If so, they are mistaken. The legends of the Arks date far before that sphere was even crafted; whispers even hint at Arks displaced around the time of Cocoon's creation, spirited away to be hidden in its shell.
What, then, is the "menace"? What distant threat confronts us, and to what purpose? The gods vanished from this place. Are they now residents of the "beyond"?

Cocoon was built in order to counter a threat from "beyond".

Sorry for the quoting all the time. :(

Cocoon was made by the Fal'Cie. That is mentioned in the game and by that Pulse Fal'Cie data log entry in History & Society. The analects must all be taken with a pinch of salt because they are written by individuals who can distort facts.

Barthandelus never mentions Lindzei. He only refers to The Maker. Therefore it is unclear whether there is actually a God called Lindzei. It is also unclear whether there is a Goddess called Pulse. Lindzei is also never referred to anywhere on Cocoon. It would be more likely that Lindzei (who is basically Lucifer) was an idea created by the people on Pulse to further fuel their hatred of Cocoon.

The Pulse Fal'Cie looking for a portal or key to finding The Maker is perhaps unrealistic. But then again, we don't know what the purposes of these Fal'Cie are. Perhaps the Pulse Fal'Cie were given the purposes of terraforming and therefore they can only explore, whereas the Cocoon Fal'Cie were given the tasks of looking after humanity, and therefore can breed them.

The analect you refer to talks about the Fifth Ark. But the party, while there, believe that Barthandelus deliberately brought up the Fifth Ark to Cocoon in case he would ever need it. Cocoon is built from material from Pulse, so it is fairly easy for them to steal stuff.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

Cocoon was made by the Fal'Cie. That is mentioned in the game and by that Pulse Fal'Cie data log entry in History & Society. The analects must all be taken with a pinch of salt because they are written by individuals who can distort facts.

Barthandelus never mentions Lindzei. He only refers to The Maker. Therefore it is unclear whether there is actually a God called Lindzei. It is also unclear whether there is a Goddess called Pulse. Lindzei is also never referred to anywhere on Cocoon. It would be more likely that Lindzei (who is basically Lucifer) was an idea created by the people on Pulse to further fuel their hatred of Cocoon.

The Pulse Fal'Cie looking for a portal or key to finding The Maker is perhaps unrealistic. But then again, we don't know what the purposes of these Fal'Cie are. Perhaps the Pulse Fal'Cie were given the purposes of terraforming and therefore they can only explore, whereas the Cocoon Fal'Cie were given the tasks of looking after humanity, and therefore can breed them.

The analect you refer to talks about the Fifth Ark. But the party, while there, believe that Barthandelus deliberately brought up the Fifth Ark to Cocoon in case he would ever need it. Cocoon is built from material from Pulse, so it is fairly easy for them to steal stuff.

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I don't know. It's a bit silly to neglect the analects since it would be unneccesary complicated to provide false or inaccurate information. I'm sure this is how the story writers intented the story to be like otherwise there would be no point for the player to read them as they won't add anything to the story.

The reason that Barthandelus wants to bring the Maker (which is Pulse by the way ;)) back and not Lindzei is because she abandoned them at some point, making them orphans. Though I'm not sure if this happend before or after the Gods departed, but probably before.

As for the fal'Cie making Cocoon, well it's also possible that both Lindzei and the Cocoon fal'Cie created it. As I mentioned before Barthandelus is Cocoon's architect so he probably could make "stuff" as well. fal'Cie can't change their given Focus as that would openly condradict pretty much the entire game. It would be really dumb if nobody had noticed that huge gaping plot hole before the game was released. I think.

As for the Arks, they already existed before Barthandelus since they date back from the moment Cocoon was made. He didn't create them, as least not the very first ones and most likely not any at all.

I like your point about the terraforming fal'Cie. That seemes to make sense.

I'm not saying we should neglect the analects but rather treat them as one would any historical record. It just is strange that both Pulse & Lindzei both left the world. It is also strange that Barthandelus never mentions either Pulse or Lindzei. So I would think that this record, as it is written by people from Pulse who hate Cocoon, has twisted the truth. So, either there was never any God called Lindzei (and he was made up by Pulse) or there is a God called Lindzei who is one of The Maker's forms.

The Cocoon Fal'Cie didn't create it out of nothing. They used Pulse materials. That is why the analects you refer to has Lindzei sinking her fangs into Pulse - imagery suggesting that they tore up Pulse to gather the materials to build Cocoon.

Although your idea that Cocoon was created by The Maker (or was commissioned by The Maker) has many merits - especially when one thinks how well the different Fal'Cie integrate with each other. Perhaps a thread should be devoted to this though because this has gone way off topic.

It just isn't a concept that makes sense. I think I also have a hard time dealing with the premise of gods doing anything toward intervention in general. But, that said, it's just ridiculous that there is that much confusion.

I personally think that the analects were a great way to tell the story because it does allow for complete misinformation to enter historical record. The authors put the analects in there to deliberately confuse the player. The datalogue is just bad story telling form. It really should have been put into the story better.

But, again, the story just has so many gaps. If the Cocoon Fal'Cie were just trying to wipe out humans because they believed humans were a scourge to existence, I'd believe that more than some silly God idea. Especially because they were created by the maker to build Cocoon, as I understood it, and they did, and so, where did this awareness come from for the Fal'Cie.

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Originally Posted by champagne supernova

I'm not saying we should neglect the analects but rather treat them as one would any historical record. It just is strange that both Pulse & Lindzei both left the world. It is also strange that Barthandelus never mentions either Pulse or Lindzei. So I would think that this record, as it is written by people from Pulse who hate Cocoon, has twisted the truth. So, either there was never any God called Lindzei (and he was made up by Pulse) or there is a God called Lindzei who is one of The Maker's forms.

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Well, I'm just quoting what the game tells you, and there is no real reason to believe otherwise in my opinion. Keep in mind that the creation of Cocoon happend long ago, and that Barthandelus had never a reason to mention Lindzei in context with the story, and that's why she is merely mentioned. And the game just doesn't make sense otherwise.

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I think I also have a hard time dealing with the premise of gods doing anything toward intervention in general.

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I think I kind off agree with you here. Though on the other hand, only one god actually interferes, and that was because she pitied mortal beings, though I don't know if that is a reasonable explanation. It makes her come off a deux ex machina which is true I suppose. :p

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But, again, the story just has so many gaps. If the Cocoon Fal'Cie were just trying to wipe out humans because they believed humans were a scourge to existence, I'd believe that more than some silly God idea. Especially because they were created by the maker to build Cocoon, as I understood it, and they did, and so, where did this awareness come from for the Fal'Cie.

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The fal'Cie believed that the portal to which the Gods departed to is the same as where all the souls leave the mortal plane. The fal'Cie's logic is, that when Cocoon is destroyed, a flood of souls will go through the portal and throw it open wide and they hoped to catch a glimpse of that what lies beyond.

As for the awareness of the fal'Cie, all life is self-conscience, even plants are, though not the same why as animals and humans. fal'Cie are alive, they have a conscience, and therefore they exist. If something has no self-conscience it cannot be alive. Gods create life and not machines. Most of the time. :p

Then again, you could argue that the Maker should have given the fal'Cie the conscience of a plant, but the tasks that they have to do require just that. You can't expect for example Barthandelus to be Cocoon's overseer without that aspect, and neither can you expect Bismarck to guard the waters of the Sulyya Springs without it.

However, I believe there are also fal'Cie who's only task is to open doors or something trivial like that. But you could say all fal'Cie are designed like they are because only then they could overcome certain problems that might come their way? As an attempt to make them 100 % effecient? Of course, being 100 % effecient doesn't mean someone is completely perfect as XIII's story shows.

I'm not bugged that I am on a linear path that I cannot deviate from, because I had to get over that when I played FFX years ago. In fact, I remember being pissed that there wasn't a world map, but I got over it. FFX only had one dungeon, and it was optional. Everything else was a trail, a cutscene, a trial (a sphere/glyph puzzle followed by an Aeon battle), and another boss. However, the game had a fantastic battle, and weapons customization system. Break HP and damage was a welcomed addition and the sphere grid lead to many possibilities.

The boss battles were also more strategic than they had ever been.

FFXIII takes some getting use to as well but it does contain the innovation that FFX and even FFXII also had.

FFXIII's battle system is the most intense yet.

Monster groups in FFXIII are strategically designed, requiring different tactics for each battle.

Some would look at the lack of towns and a vast empty "explorable" area as "cutting the fat" rather than a technical error. Personally, I would have liked the design to have at least give the illusion of a big, open world, but imho, this is a very minor flaw.

There is some worry that FFXIII can no longer be considered an RPG, but some hardcore RPG fans don't even consider the entire FF series an RPG. This type of evolution in FF gameplay is logical.

Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy is not.

FFXIII boss battles are EPIC. Period.

The story is fast-paced and plot driven. There is also depth to characters unprecedented in any FF game. The graphical potential of the 7th generation consoles give FFXIII characters life-like facial expressions that bring them to life.

The design decision was bold and I think the right one. The games content and design has become very controversial. What would of happened to the series if the game was just another FF game, with the same ol' same ol"?

This game was a massive disappointment. I got to chapter 7 and literally, no matter how hard I persevered with this game could NOT bring myself to play it any further. I was looking forward to this game for so long, and tracked its progress for equal measure. This person perfectly sums up my feelings about what ticked me off so much about this game:

'Lets start from the beginning. Months prior to this games release I would hear and read time and time again on review sites, forums, everywhere... the word "linear." "This game is too 'linear'. Linear this and linear that." I got so sick of the word. It has to be some memetic mutation, an exaggeration, I thought. It can't be that bad....

It really is that bad.

All these beautiful scenes CGIs, vistas, environments, all amount to... well, a facade. You get to look at these things but you don't get to explore them. It's like uh, a looking at a pretty picture. In fact you don't get to decide anything at all. This is where the word "linear" comes in. Pretty much every place they drop you in is a just a straight path from A to B. Now I understand that most JRPGs are linear. They all amount to going from point A to point B overall, but they tend to have something in between that makes you forget that. This game, though, it's like they didn't even bother... they might as well just strap you to a bullet train, because it feels like you're just along for the ride.

You see, the majority of the game basically consists of you traveling down a hallway towards the next cutscene. I'm not even exaggerating. Everywhere is a basically a curving hallway, then cutscene, then they drop you in another hallway. At one point there was a forest, and I thought "hmm maybe I'll get to explore this time since, you know, IT'S A FOREST." Nope, just another hallway in the trees. You know, I get the feeling that these developers, deep down, just wanted to make another movie. Well they should have just made another movie and gotten it out of their system.

What is the point of the Crystarium other than to give you something else pretty to look at? This thing tries to trick you into thinking it's going to give you choices; they have a bunch of branchy looking things to that effect. You have to unlock one node to get to the next one, whether you want it or not. You get more paths to fill up later on, but by then, when you have Hope as the most powerful mage for example, what point would there be in filling his Commando path? There are no choices. If they were just going to string us around with this thing, they might as well have just had some normal level up system from 1 to 100. At least it wouldn't have been an insult to my intelligence.

The weapon's system is yet another head-scratcher. You get a weapon and you level it up with some materials you find. Then you find another weapon, but by the time you find it you've already leveled up your weapon so much that it's already better than that new weapon. Well then what's the point? I don't know whether I have to wait for new weapons or level up this one so I can be strong enough for the next boss. Was it really so hard just to have a weapon that's better than the one you have in the next shop or treasure chest? This is just too confusing.

The thing it seems they screwed up on most with this game is the storytelling, believe it or not.

These characters are so plastic and stereotypical. Vanille has the most girly little noises and gestiticulations she does that are just so damn irritating. Even Sazh, the most realistic, sensible character in the game has the most ridiculous afro, with a chocobo nesting in it... major facepalm moments here.

Maybe I would care about these characters if they had actually made the story somewhat engaging. Here's why the storytelling fails:
They begin right in the middle of the action, and everyone seems to know everything... everyone except you, the player. Right off the bat, they start throwing all these foreign words at you like "L'Cie", "Fal'Cie", "Focus" as if you're supposed to know what the hell they're talking about. Eighty percent of the time I have no idea what is going on in this game. All of a sudden I have to go to Paloompaloompa or whatever it's called. Why? All of sudden this guy wearing a wedding dress is my enemy. Why?
Everyone has a Focus, and they don't know what their focus is. But it seems that they have to figure out what their focus is or these Gods called the Fal'Cie are gonna turn them into zombies. And if they do complete their focus they get turned to crystal. Okay, so let me get this straight. These all powerful Fal'Cie decided to brand these people on their asses, make them hated by society, all to give them this task that they wanted them to do so badly. And for some reason they decided not to tell them what this task was. Not even a clue or hint, because ooooh they're so mysterious... Nice job guys.
You know how I even know all this? It's not like the characters discussed it in a conversation. You see, in the menu they have this "Data Log" you're supposed to read that tells you everything. It's literally pages and pages of information that updates every so often just so you can know what's going on. So instead of having a little exposition and character interaction to let you know all the background details, they throw a book at you. I understand they wanted to get right into the action real fast, but this is the worst way they could have possibly done it. It's like you go to a movie, and they hand out these 200 page brochures you need to read just so you can understand what's going on in the movie. You know, if I wanted to read a novel, I would have gone to Barnes and Noble and bought one. This is how you alienate your audience. This is really basic stuff. When you tell a story, you have exposition to let the audience know what's going on. I don't get why this was so hard for Square this time around. It's like they didn't even bother, just like with the linearity. In fact I heard they had a bunch of novels on their website just to explain the characters' backgrounds. Come on Square. I have a life, you know.
.
I can't even sit down to play the game for more than an hour or two because it's just so boring, nonsensical, and thanks to Vanille, irritating. I have to sit down and read paragraphs, when I just wanted to play a videogame. Do you begin to see what happened here? The developers tried so hard to turn a game into a movie, that they failed at making either. Whatever this thing is, I can't bring myself to finish it.

I know people would say "Wait till you get 20-30 hours or so into the game". Get to chapter 11 or whatever, then it opens up and gets good. Now I can understand some games starting off slow. I'm willing to wait like an hour or two, maybe three, for a game to get good. BUT 30 HOURS? You mean to tell me that I have to wait till near the END of the game for it to get any good? Why can't it be good now? Why can't it be good from the start? I just don't get it. I'm no great philosopher or logician, but I'm pretty sure a 6 year-old could tell you that that if only 10% of a game is good, then the game is bad.' - My feelings perfectly.

Why on earth they had to change it so much from the previous FF's in this regard is beyond me. I just find it so unbelievably boring. I think they forgot this was a video game and not a movie. This game doesn't even deserve a 2/10. Well maybe I'd give it that for the beautiful graphics alone. Still, a major blip in the series, and I hope for the life of me it gets back into the swing of things for upcoming Final Fantasy games.

I thought it deviated just as much as FF12 did.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocket Edge

This game was a massive disappointment. I got to chapter 7 and literally, no matter how hard I persevered with this game could NOT bring myself to play it any further. I was looking forward to this game for so long, and tracked its progress for equal measure. This person perfectly sums up my feelings about what ticked me off so much about this game:

'Lets start from the beginning. Months prior to this games release I would hear and read time and time again on review sites, forums, everywhere... the word "linear." "This game is too 'linear'. Linear this and linear that." I got so sick of the word. It has to be some memetic mutation, an exaggeration, I thought. It can't be that bad....

It really is that bad.

All these beautiful scenes CGIs, vistas, environments, all amount to... well, a facade. You get to look at these things but you don't get to explore them. It's like uh, a looking at a pretty picture. In fact you don't get to decide anything at all. This is where the word "linear" comes in. Pretty much every place they drop you in is a just a straight path from A to B. Now I understand that most JRPGs are linear. They all amount to going from point A to point B overall, but they tend to have something in between that makes you forget that. This game, though, it's like they didn't even bother... they might as well just strap you to a bullet train, because it feels like you're just along for the ride.

You see, the majority of the game basically consists of you traveling down a hallway towards the next cutscene. I'm not even exaggerating. Everywhere is a basically a curving hallway, then cutscene, then they drop you in another hallway. At one point there was a forest, and I thought "hmm maybe I'll get to explore this time since, you know, IT'S A FOREST." Nope, just another hallway in the trees. You know, I get the feeling that these developers, deep down, just wanted to make another movie. Well they should have just made another movie and gotten it out of their system.

What is the point of the Crystarium other than to give you something else pretty to look at? This thing tries to trick you into thinking it's going to give you choices; they have a bunch of branchy looking things to that effect. You have to unlock one node to get to the next one, whether you want it or not. You get more paths to fill up later on, but by then, when you have Hope as the most powerful mage for example, what point would there be in filling his Commando path? There are no choices. If they were just going to string us around with this thing, they might as well have just had some normal level up system from 1 to 100. At least it wouldn't have been an insult to my intelligence.

The weapon's system is yet another head-scratcher. You get a weapon and you level it up with some materials you find. Then you find another weapon, but by the time you find it you've already leveled up your weapon so much that it's already better than that new weapon. Well then what's the point? I don't know whether I have to wait for new weapons or level up this one so I can be strong enough for the next boss. Was it really so hard just to have a weapon that's better than the one you have in the next shop or treasure chest? This is just too confusing.

The thing it seems they screwed up on most with this game is the storytelling, believe it or not.

These characters are so plastic and stereotypical. Vanille has the most girly little noises and gestiticulations she does that are just so damn irritating. Even Sazh, the most realistic, sensible character in the game has the most ridiculous afro, with a chocobo nesting in it... major facepalm moments here.

Maybe I would care about these characters if they had actually made the story somewhat engaging. Here's why the storytelling fails:
They begin right in the middle of the action, and everyone seems to know everything... everyone except you, the player. Right off the bat, they start throwing all these foreign words at you like "L'Cie", "Fal'Cie", "Focus" as if you're supposed to know what the hell they're talking about. Eighty percent of the time I have no idea what is going on in this game. All of a sudden I have to go to Paloompaloompa or whatever it's called. Why? All of sudden this guy wearing a wedding dress is my enemy. Why?
Everyone has a Focus, and they don't know what their focus is. But it seems that they have to figure out what their focus is or these Gods called the Fal'Cie are gonna turn them into zombies. And if they do complete their focus they get turned to crystal. Okay, so let me get this straight. These all powerful Fal'Cie decided to brand these people on their asses, make them hated by society, all to give them this task that they wanted them to do so badly. And for some reason they decided not to tell them what this task was. Not even a clue or hint, because ooooh they're so mysterious... Nice job guys.
You know how I even know all this? It's not like the characters discussed it in a conversation. You see, in the menu they have this "Data Log" you're supposed to read that tells you everything. It's literally pages and pages of information that updates every so often just so you can know what's going on. So instead of having a little exposition and character interaction to let you know all the background details, they throw a book at you. I understand they wanted to get right into the action real fast, but this is the worst way they could have possibly done it. It's like you go to a movie, and they hand out these 200 page brochures you need to read just so you can understand what's going on in the movie. You know, if I wanted to read a novel, I would have gone to Barnes and Noble and bought one. This is how you alienate your audience. This is really basic stuff. When you tell a story, you have exposition to let the audience know what's going on. I don't get why this was so hard for Square this time around. It's like they didn't even bother, just like with the linearity. In fact I heard they had a bunch of novels on their website just to explain the characters' backgrounds. Come on Square. I have a life, you know.
.
I can't even sit down to play the game for more than an hour or two because it's just so boring, nonsensical, and thanks to Vanille, irritating. I have to sit down and read paragraphs, when I just wanted to play a videogame. Do you begin to see what happened here? The developers tried so hard to turn a game into a movie, that they failed at making either. Whatever this thing is, I can't bring myself to finish it.

I know people would say "Wait till you get 20-30 hours or so into the game". Get to chapter 11 or whatever, then it opens up and gets good. Now I can understand some games starting off slow. I'm willing to wait like an hour or two, maybe three, for a game to get good. BUT 30 HOURS? You mean to tell me that I have to wait till near the END of the game for it to get any good? Why can't it be good now? Why can't it be good from the start? I just don't get it. I'm no great philosopher or logician, but I'm pretty sure a 6 year-old could tell you that that if only 10% of a game is good, then the game is bad.' - My feelings perfectly.

Why on earth they had to change it so much from the previous FF's in this regard is beyond me. I just find it so unbelievably boring. I think they forgot this was a video game and not a movie. This game doesn't even deserve a 2/10. Well maybe I'd give it that for the beautiful graphics alone. Still, a major blip in the series, and I hope for the life of me it gets back into the swing of things for upcoming Final Fantasy games.

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I agree with every.single.word

And that's only half of this games problems. This guy having not finished the game can't even comment on the bull:bou::bou::bou::bou: ending, the stale battle system that sacrafices 90% of interaction your supposed to have with flashy graphics. The tedious grinding you must endure for the ultimate weapons which it then discourages you from using because you'll never see a 5 star after battle ranking while using them. The single "side-quest" which not only isn't a side-quest as it's intended to be additional content for after the main story, but also is just a lazy version of FFXII's far superior version. Jee-zuss i try to be respectful to people who enjoy it but this "game" is just god awful and a 2/10 is far too generous

to the people debating on fal'Cie and such, there is a thread I started a while ago (On Orphan and Barthandalus) that has the same discussion going on in there, as well as the thread "About the Gods". go in there and discuss some more because that's one of my favorite sides to this game and (really) I do think it makes sense, but the Analects are a little cloudy and open for interpretation - as is actual history (or the Bible, to be broad). There are answers to be found, you just have to read everything very carefully. and again, a lot of it is open for interpretation. BoB especially has a good theory as to the meaning of The Maker, Pulse and Lindzei. Supernova, you should go check it man.

As for the other responses on this page, I'll say it again...I enjoy this game very much. one of my favorite entries in the series, I think it's exquisite. again, and this argument has been had many a time, it's all up to personal preference to the different systems. it's very different than previous FF titles, but i would be truly disappointed if they were all the exact same. i've already stated my reasons and arguments for liking this game, so i won't go too much further.

>>> I finally was able to play this game im in chapter 10 right now.

Is not a bad game, in fact this game would have been great if they didnt name it "Final Fantasy", the game just doesnt feel like a Final Fantasy and of course is not up to a FF game in terms of quality (the story/plot has lot of flaws).. The game has lot of potential but Squarenix just got lazy and didnt put enough effort on it, they probably thought that awesome graphics and a decent battle system were enough to make a FF game..:luca:

Things I liked about Final Fantasy XIII;

Most of the cast. Especially Lightning and Fang. Lightning is probably my favorite Final Fantasy protaganist since Cloud. I also liked Sazh and Vanille as their backstories came out.

The Combat. Its fast paced. Fluid. The AI characters generally do a pretty good job of their various rolls (I'm a better Synergist than the AI, though, since I'll cast every spell I can in one turn). I don't mind that I'm only controlling my leader. Its the same thing I get when I'm playing Mass Effect or Tales of Vesperia (though in the latter I can switch which party member I'm controlling on the fly).

The graphics. Easily one of the most beautiful games I've ever played. I think Bioware still beats Square Enix in the department of human skin, but at the same time, Square Enix definitely makes the best hair I've ever seen. And I never get bored looking around Gran Pulse.

Things I could take or leave;

Snow. Guy's more or less a lovable idiot. Good intentions, but if this were not Final Fantasy, he would have gotten his little rebel group killed in about 30 seconds. He has is uses taking hits for the more useful characters. But keep him away from any sort of leadership responciblities. And sharp objects, he might hurt himself.

The Story. Not exactly bad, but not great like the classics that are IV, VI and VII.

Things I hated;

The level design, or lack their of. The straight line you're kept on for 90% of the game is just plain boring. Being able to see the enemies is meaningless as you can't avoid most of them even if you wanted it, and its stupid to anyway, since that's less CP and items you may be getting. Only when you get to Gran Pulse is this problem rectified.

Hope. I hated this whiny little bitch with a passion. Like I have hated no other video game character I can think of. He spends most of the game harboring a grudge against a guy who went out of his way to save his mother's life. And when he does get over that, well, he still does nothing to redeem himself in my eyes. The only thing that made his portions of the game tolerable were being partnered with Lightning. I'm only glad that following the battle with his Eidolon, I was able to put him in the back of the party and pretend he no longer exists.

The Sentinel roll. A complete waste of space. No offensive benefits at all, and I hated that certain battles pretty much require you to have a Sentinel to survive. If an enemy is really hitting me that hard, the proper solution should be merely sacrificing 1/3 of my offensive capablities to having a Medic to keep everyone healthy, not having a meat shield around. The proper way to do a Tank in video games are things like Fawkes from Fallout 3, Grunt from Mass Effect 2, or Shale from Dragon Age: Origins. Characters who can take the abuse, and hold the enemies attention because they're busy killing them.