Xeno Debate: Gears Vs. Saga

I'll never understand how you can place Xenosaga so high and Xenogears so low. Yes, Saga did several things better than Gears and I appreciate those improvements. The most major one of course is keeping all the cast relevant and not letting them just drop off into obscurity. (that was a bad habit of Gears) By and large it also has better dungeons but that's just because XG's dungeons were among the worst in history. There are also other things here and there that I prefer about Saga.

But really, pros don't place it levels and levels above Gears. You praise Xenosaga for having an unrivaled villain lineup and I agree that its cast of baddies was superb. But I cannot see how Xenogears shined any less brightly in that department.
Wilhelm vs. Krelian also isn't a very fair comparison though Wilhelm is a much better character.

And while Xenogears did neglect a lot of its main cast, when they were in focus they tended to be very interesting and awesome. Who can ever forget Maria rushing out to fight her father? Rico's subplot with being the son of the Kaiser was also pretty neat. (if only it went somewhere...)
I would also argue that, apart from Fei and Elly, both Citan and Bart maintained a great deal of importance throughout the plot.

And there's probably more but I'm more than I realized so i can't focus properly. Point is that I'm just baffled by how you can love Saga so much while not liking Gears. To me, they're both so similar that I can't imagine liking one and not the other. I feel the same way when people bitch about Xenosaga being a major letdown compared to Xenogears.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I'll never understand how you can place Xenosaga so high and Xenogears so low.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

The most major one of course is keeping all the cast relevant and not letting them just drop off into obscurity. (that was a bad habit of Gears) By and large it also has better dungeons but that's just because XG's dungeons were among the worst in history.

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Wilhelm vs. Krelian also isn't a very fair comparison though Wilhelm is a much better character.

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Rico's subplot with being the son of the Kaiser was also pretty neat. (if only it went somewhere...)

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...Yeah, you kind of listed a pretty damn solid foundation as to just why I love Saga so much more then Gears for me in this post. :p

There is also the lack of an entire disk that does nothing but monologue to you. That's a bit plus in Xeno's favor. (Though to be fair, twice Saga did something similar where Shion in Episode 2 talked about the war between Federation and Immigrant fleet, and talking about how she came to join Scientia. However the description was far less boring, and didn't go on for anywhere near as long as Xenogears did.)

Also, the Characters are pretty much universally better. Fei and Citan being an exception to this. Fei is easilly a better lead then Shion, and Citan in terms of quality is on par with the Saga cast. Though I guess I could do a Character Vs. Character comparison, though It might be hard to be fair considering Xeno got 3 games to flesh out it's cast. :p

Really? Out of the Gears party you think only Citan was written as well as the Saga cast?
An interesting choice... He's not one of my favorites but I suppose after Fei and Elly he gets the most consistent screentime and development. The mystry of what the heck was going on with him was also a big part of the story for at least half of the game.

I have no doubt that, pound-for-pound, the Xenosaga party would beat the Xenogears party in terms of character and writing. Each Xenosaga game, with the massive exception of EPII, did a fabulous job of making it "an ensemble story". Shion was undoubtedly the lead but none of the others felt superfluous and they all had their own little arcs to wrap up. I mean, just look at the fantastic closure Episode 3 gave us. Whether it was the URTVs and Yuriev, Ziggy and Voyager or Jin and Pellegri/Margulis, everyone had a wonderful and satisfying end. Can't really say the same for Rico or frickin' Chu-Chu or even Bart.
MOMO kinda just faded into the background though... Her "closure' was her finally meeting and talking to Joachim but even then that didn't feel special enough. At least to me.

But even if a lot of teh party fell flat, I think Fei and Elly can stand up to anyone on the Saga team. I might not like the crap with Krelian but the rest of the ending in Xenogears is pure magic to me. For 10,000 years Fei and Elly have loved and lost one another due to various nefarious machinations. However love has won out and they have conquered every single obstacle in their path. Their love will finally not only blossom, but continue to bloom for years to come.

Of course you don't like their love story so bleh. :/

And I think the area in which the two games are closest when it comes to characters is their respective villain rosters. I can honestly not say which group of antagonists I love more. Yes Wilhelm beats Krelian but Xenogears has Grahf and Miang and Id and Ramsus. Ramsus maybe lost all his threat potential early on but he was still a very powerful character for me. I don't think anyone in either series suffered as much as he did and I certainly didn't sympathize with anyone else as much as I did with him.

At the same time Xenosaga has a plethora of both deep and just lovably hateable villains too. Yuriev's my personal favorite there but Margulis is a close second.

Fei and Citan I said. :p

As much as Gears pissed me off, there isn't much doubt to me that Fei is one of, if not the, best written main character in a video game.

Perhaps I'll go for a comparison of villains instead of heroes then. Maybe I'll just drop off the fairness and do the heroes too. :p

Well, on it I Shall get!

Edit: And believe it or not, Jin and Citan will not be up for comparison with each other. ;P

Yeah my mind was blown when Neo, after all the smug trolling the likes of me could only aspire of one day emulating, revealed that not only had he played Xenosaga first, but held them so dear. I really don't see how you could laud one and lambast the other, unless you were prejudiced by the love gears gets at the expense of saga.

Or, you know, I could just have taste. :p

As much as I enjoy Xenogears' story and music, I really can't fault you there.

Will the character comparisons be done in their own thread? I gotta keep an eye out for that.

I'll just post it here. It is, after all, a defense of game positioning on my list. :p

Krellian Vs. Wilhelm
This one was easy to pick, each person being their respective games main antagonist. Though as easy as it was to pick this, it was easy to determine Wilhelm was the better villain. To start with, I’ll bring up why Krellian fails for me. Krellian is arrogent as all hell and to arguably hypocritical due to his comments on the Ministry extending their life by going computer on everyone. When we learn of him and Lacan, he starts showing some clear signs of jealousy for Lacan being chosen over him by Elly. He has some pretty clear motivations set up by this, at least in part manipulated by Miang to fulfil the goal of Deus and what not. Yet no, at the very end we get that stupid smurfing line of no one having more love then Krellian. There was no set up for this, just something pulled out of the ass. Maybe the set up was cut at some point, who knows.

Wilhelm, on the other hand, is set up from the get go. You may not fully understand why he says some of the things he does, such as ‘His will shines with a wonderous light. It’s a shame he plays such a small part.’ He shows much more appreciation and love of the world, and in the end his entire plan was to save the world from an inevitable destruction. There is no hatred, and no animosity from Wilhelm. It’s also bizarre that he seems genuinely happy when he fails. He really is one of, if not the, most unique villain I have ever seen in a game.

Gharf Vs. Albedo
Some may be wondering why this was the pair chosen to face off. The reason is kind of simple, in each of their respective games, they serve the same purpose. To approach your characters when things are going wrong and poke them until the get pissy. And I would say, they both perform these roles amazingly well.

Yes, they both have a lot more going for them then that, but at it’s purest that is their role in the plot. In addition, both are essential part of one of the party members. Gharf to Fei, Albedo to Jr. However they differ massively once past their similar role in stories, but in terms of how they interact with and get on with their connected selves, it’s got to go to Albedo with me. While Gharf does his ‘I’m consumed by my hatred and grief’ schtick well, as a villain that’s about all there is to him. Even though he had a very well done back story on how he became Gharf, once in villain form he didn’t seem to offer much more then his role at Poking Fei, and after Krellian got rolling Gharf didn’t feel like he was much more then Krellian’s underling and an obstacle in your way. Hell, none of Fei’s Growth as a character much involves Gharf, it’s much more tied into his dealings with ID and Elly.

Compare that with Albedo. His interactions with Jr. are absolutely phenomenal. When Jr. get’s angry, things feel a lot more personal and big then when Fei get’s pushed around by Gharf. More so Albedo is doing a lot more then just pushing Jr.'s buttons, he’s actively going around and getting trout done. In terms of personality, presence, and history Albedo pretty much out classes Gharf in every way.


Gazel Ministry Vs. Dmitri Yuriev
This is the best comparison I could create, as Gears doesn’t really have a person like Dmitri, a third party villain basically. However, since in the end he was manipulated to do think our main villain could not without him, he’s similar to the Ministry for being used by Krellian in a similar way.

Yuriev wins out over the ministry for me on the basis the Ministry didn’t really feel like they were necessary. We already had Cain who was preventing the use of the key, while the Ministry were the ones who could actually use it. Considering how Krellian had entirely puppeteer ed the council anyway, they felt rather superfluous and used as little more then a few bits of plot reveal.

And, for anyone who has played Saga, do I even need to describe why Dmitri is so great? He has a wonderful way of just speaking to everyone like they are so far beneath him. He is sly, vicious, and cruel all in the name of his goals. And I love how he openly accepts that what drives him is his fear. Not often is there a villain who so welcomes that kind of emotion, and he uses it to drive him towards his desire to overcome it. Not to mention the way he ties in with Jr. and Albedo.

Margulas Vs. Kaharn
Just to clarify, this parrying is made because they both are the Lacky’s of the actual bad guys, and both of them are pretty much ignorant of whats really going on and are just being used buy the higher ups. Hell, even their endings are pretty much the same. Even after they realize they have been cast off, they hold on to their stubborn pride and face off against the heroes one last time.

The difference comes in that as a character, Margulas just stands tall and is full of conviction. He feels like he has a purpose for fighting, a reason he is so invested in all he does and a powerful drive and will to get his motivation from. Hell, the guy is imposing as all hell.

Compare that with to Kaharn, who more often then not just feels incompetent, and when compared to the likes of Margulas lacks any real threat, and even more so lacks the drive and presence. He was little more then an easy puppet to push around to Krellians ends, and when he was cast off you just end up feeling ‘meh’ cause it was going to happen anyway.

Margulas, on the other hand, when you realize he’s just being used, it doesn’t take long before you start feeling bad for the guy. You watch as he begins to realize he’s been lied to, and you see is composure crumble more and more each time Heinline has him give up on one of the relics of Ormus. All up until his resolve is finally gone, and he goes out for the only thing left, his fight with Jin.


T-elos Vs. Miang
Again for the sake of those who have played neither, both characters kind of work as the ‘evil’ counterpart to someone. In both cases, I use the word ‘evil’ loosely. Now, I’ll admit that I’m not to big a fan of Miang, but she has a pretty interesting reason for doing what she does, and she is pretty damn good at being conniving.

Though even though I don’t like her that much, she does make for a better villain then T-Elos. T-elos is just kind of their to me, and really only has one note she hits whenever she’s on scream, “I’ll defeat you to become real”. Mind you, she does it well, but really she’s more just a piece of a puzzle crafted by Wilhelm, regardless of how awesome here fights with KOS-MOS look.

Kevin Winnicot Vs. ID
Alright, this pairing happens both are integrall to the main character’s Psyche in one way or another. Kevin being the one who was Shion’s lover and developer of KOS-MOS, his role in the plot is second only to Wilhelm. He spends a good portion of the final game after his reveal trying to coax Shion over to him in order to his side.

ID issn’t so much important to Fei’s Psyche as he is part of it, being another personality of Fei. Not really on the side of the rest of the villains, his importance to their plan as well as the shear force of will he exerts is commendable. Formed from all the bad memories and hatred and frustrations of Fei, he refuses to be forgotten or denied his existence.

While I like Kevin and all, ID wins this one. Were as Gahrf felt underwhelming after Krellians entrance, and Krellian himself falling flat with a badly handled motivation, ID’s entrance, growth and Conclusion were outstanding. I was a bit sad that when Fei managed to reconcile his different personalities that they never really seemed to shine through and Fei continued to be exactly as he was before that, the arc of ID was none the less terrific. One of the things the game concluded wonderfully.

I don't really agree with these pairings... Wilhelm should be paired with Miang and Krelian should be paired with Yuriev because their natures and circumstances in the game are far more similar. Minag and Wilhelm are constructs created to live for countless years and manipulate human history to achieve an overall goal, whereas Yuriev and Krelian are people who become aware of each of their games grand conspiracies and try to manipulate it for their own good.:p

There are no good counterpoints for the Gazel Ministry, T-Elos, or several other villain crews. You would run into the same issue with the heroes since Xenogears main playable cast is larger than Saga's.

You make a valid enough point. I think my pairings are pretty solid though, but that makes sense. Also, After my brief list here, I'll be fair and bring up two issues with Saga I didn't touch on before, having just finished off Episode 3. :p

As far as gears, I just ignored Esmarelda and Pupu for my comparisons, that I have yet to write mind you, might not since I pretty much will just re-tread descriptions from my BoF2 comparisons. :p

Here were the pairings anyway.

Fei Vs. Shion -Main Characters obviously. Point to Fei on this one.

Rico Vs. Ziggy - Both are kind of the protective brutes of the group, and both kind of get shafted. However Ziggy does have Pied Piper, and even with a lack of focus he feels like his story is complete by the end, even if we don't get it all. Point Ziggy.

Chaos Vs. Citan -Both serve as this party figure that knows a lot more then the party, and is there to help guide them along quitely. This is a smurfing hard one for me and I can't really decide who I enjoy more. I will note Citan is more consistently active then Chaos though.

Elly Vs. KOS-MOS - They both serve as some form of key to get things going and that is necessary to the villains plan. At it's most basic form they share similar roles. The big draw on Elly, character wise, is the lovestory though. And, as I said before, I don't really like the pre-destined thing. Past that she's alright as a character, but nothing amazing. KOS-MOS's growing emotions and interactions had me far more invested. Point goes to Mary.

Bart Vs. Jin - Oh yeah, this is the pairing I go with. The reason I didn't pair Jin and Citan is Jin didn't really have the same kind of connection to the villains Citan did, and his Role is quite a bit different. This was chosen because both seem to be actively trying to hold up and support our lead and keep their head straight and on track. The difference being is Jin is troubled by his inability to do that. While I'd say Bart has the more compelling story and History, Jin wins this one because he's simply the better character. Point Jin.

Jr. Vs. Billy - Jr. and Billy both have a connection with one of the antagonists fronts, and their roles are to reveal to you the player some of the back workings of these things. You really don't get much of a feel for the Church of gears though, especially compared to U-TIC and Yuriev. And, even judging by Jr.'s story in any one of the games, ignoring the others, there is a lot more interest there for Jr. then Billy. Point Rubedo.

MOMO vs. Maria - This was chosen cause I had no other people left. Off the top of my head I can't think of any real direct comparison. By now you know my feelings on the uselessness of Maria though, so I'll save the trouble and give the point to MOMO, even if she is mostly irrelevent in game 3. :p

And now the points on Xenosaga to bring up.

I really don't understand your comments before on needing the Datalog to follow the story. Everything you need to know is presented, except for one detail. And I do admit this is a big one. That Wilhelm has succeeded at the Eternal Occurance in the past, and that since U-DU is unnaffected by it, his consciousness continues to evolve, which alters the events slightly. Though we already know of Chaos's ability to interfere, it is a rather important detail to leave out. Without the Data logs it seems as though this is the first time Wilhelm's attempted this.

The other is probably the games biggest problem on a hole. And that problem is Allen. Not so much as the character himself, but after three games they do a terrible job at establishing a relationship between him and Shion, as his unfelt emotions are pretty much just there for laughs. It really pulls down the Scene with Shion and Kevin near the end. Especially since we already have Jin there, and the rest of the party. Reasonably Allen need not be involved, especially considering the comedic nature of his role up until now anyway.

More so, his presence damages what they tried to do with Shion. Here story only makes sense if she were to feel isolated from everyone, the whole no one understands her feelings thing. The problem is allen has always been there, even before the game started, and he's still here. At no point does Shion ever feel alone or misunderstood, but just comes off a bit whiny. I feel had Allen not been there, and it was simply Jin and everyone who convinced her to come back, it would have played out a lot better.

Also, unrelated note, even though Shion is certainly the main character, I'd never call her the leader. Since joining the group, Jr. clearly has that role locked down. They constantly defer to him when they need direction, and he pretty much calls the shots. Also, I don't think a single character get's more time devouted to them then Jr. Game 2 was like, 70% his story, the entire Dmitri and Albedo bits from game 3, and episode 1's involvement in U-Tic and more Albedo.

miang should be paired with extremely strict bondage in my dungeon

Those are some interesting matchups....

Miang and Wilhelm really do have more in common than Miang/T-elos or Wilhelm/Krelian though. They're both the impartial god-beings who have manipulated all of humanity to a specific point for a specific rason Neither of them is particularly "villainous" insofar as they don't seem to really take any sadistic pleasure in what they do. They'll do horrific things like break fetus Ramsus' mind before he's even born or have billions killed off during wars and experiments but that's just a means to an end. They're both just constructs living for a singular purpose.

Miang is certainly more hate-able though as she dirties her hands more personally. Wilhelm pretty much ruined Shion's life too but his direct involvement was minimal while Miang was the cause for Ramsus' and Fei's and Elly's and God knows how many othr peoples' suffering.

Comparing Grahf and Al is interesting but I found him more similar to Yuriev. Grahf is my favorite baddie from Gears and Dmitri is my favorite villain from Saga. While Grahf and Al have a more sympathetic backstory in common, a guy I know likened Grahf and Yuriev in this way:

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Although there is no relation between the two characters, they are both capable of transferring their own mind to others due to having come into contact with a wave-type existence. Both are 'major antagonists' who each express an extreme and destructive solution to the main theme in their respective story arc. Both characters are in part allusions to the Devil.

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Margulis vs. Ramsus is an interesting one. I can't fault your parallels except in regards to the fact I think Ramsus pretty much stopped being a "straight up villain" somewhere along the storyline. He was just too pathetic (in an obviously intentional way) while Margulis remained a credible threat in his own right all the way up to his death. I also felt very bad for Margulis when he learned his entire life was devoted to a phony belief and cause but I don't think that alone really puts him on the same level as Ramsus who had the crappiest life in a game where everyone had a pretty crappy life.\

While we're on the topic of Ramsua and Miang though, I have to praise one piece of Xenogears' storytelling that I have appreciated ever since my first playthrough 8 or so years ago.

Here comes big bad blond dude with a sword. He's the commander of the most powerful military force on the planet. He's strong, dignified and has quite the impressive introduction. We're looking at Big Bad material here.
Oh and look there, who's that by his side? It's his assistant hunny. I guess she's cute and a nice side antagonist.

BZZZZZZZZTTTTTTTTTTT! WRONG.

Our awesome sword-wielding leader is a pitiful shell who everyone kicks around and his unassuming sidekick is the most diabolical force on the face of the planet.

It's like if Pellegri turned out to be Wilhelm.

Speaking of which, surprised you didn't compare Pellegri and the Elements or the other Testaments. Pellegri and Dominia are pretty much straight up clones ya know. Pellegri is way less of a C-word though.
I frickin' hate Dominia. Bitch, bitch, bitch.

I'll address the rest of your stuff later.

I tried to compare based on the roles they filled plot wise, and similarities in arcs. There's too much different to be 100% accurate in the pairings though. Both Margulas and Ramsus fulfilled practically the same role plot wise, and had similar arcs, I don't really think there was a better comparison that could have been made. :p

And I still think Krellian and Windhelm are easilly comparable. Miang may have been the one who corrupted Krellian to do what he did, but in the end it was still Krellian's planning, schemes, and motivation. The parrallell's between Miang and Wilhelm end with 'they were both god-like beings created to do stuff'.

And Ramsus may have had the crappiest life, but that doesn't really amount to much when I couldn't bring myself to care. He was an unlikable, unrelateable, non threatening, and unsympathetic. Just bad things happening to a guy arent' enough to make me care. Margulas may not have had as troutty a lot in life compared to Ramsus, but what he had was a lot of depth and personality as a character.

To each their own my friend. I wasn't nearly as apathetic to Ramsus as you were it seems.

On the heroes comparison, your singling out of Allen being a problem with Shion's characterization is certainly an interesting and original critique that I've never read before. In a way it reminds me of a guy who was Let's Playing the XS trilogy on SomethingAwful and he absolutely hated hion from day one. At the start of Episode 3 he loved to point out how Shion and Miyuki are supposed to be great friends but he'd say this every time Shion was bitching at her. (which was a lot) '

Miyuki is kind of retarded though so I didn't see the problem but it kinda fits with what you said. Shion pulls the "nobody understands me" card a lot in 3 and yet she's had people there with her a lot of the time. I suppose you could say just because they've been there doesn't mean they can really understand. I mean, look at everything that happened to Lil' Shion at the end of Disk 1. Her friend is eaten and her parents were brutally murdered. And then her boyfriend got murdered by their robotic lovechild. Even if you did have friends they might not be able to really comprehend how much your life sucks.

Other than that I don't really have any strong thoughts on your hero comparison. I only really liked Fei and Elly from Gears and Shion and Ziggy from Saga. You were more or less fair from what I can see.

Pied Piper was awesome. I'd rather have played that than Episode II.

I hope you're proud of yourself, Cracker. I WAS going to replay FFIX for the first time in like seven years. But now this topic necessitates I play Xenogears again as it's been over a year since I did so.

I disagree with two of your hero pairing Jin/Bart and Jr./Billy. The last one especially seems to me that you just made the two gun wielders duke it out. :p

Alright Villains:

Wilhelm and Minag
Why they were paired - They are the game main antagonists and manipulators, their origins and natures are also the same. Miang really is the cause of all the issues in Gears much like Wilhelm is for Saga. Krelian is there but he's doing his own thing and it still only works if Miang's plan comes to fruition as well, he just added a final phase that isn't part of Miang's programming.

Both Miang and Wilhelm are non-human beings hiding within humanity to manipulate history and allow some terrible events to unfold for the sake of a goal that spans thousands of years. Neither character is truly evil or good, they are simply accomplishing a goal. Miang gets the more villainous light because her plan involves resurrecting a self aware. terraforming anti-planetary weapon system, whereas Wilhelm is simply trying to prevent human conscious from making the realm of real numbers (material world) collapse and take the world of imaginary numbers (God realm) with it by making the universe reset before it reaches a point of no return. Yet the point I'll make is that both characters are largely indifferent to their goals beyond getting them accomplished. Wilhelm is not saving the world because he feels for humanity, nor is Miang trying to end the world because she's some evil meglomaniac. They are both simply constructs fulfilling the purpose they were created for and they both do an excellent job. Granted certrain facors put a wrench in Wilhelm's plan whereas Miang ultimately succeeds in her goal (Hey its not her fault some heroes came and kicked Deus' ass after it finally got restored, her job was just to get it running again not keep it alive.). For me, Miang wins this because... well frankly I don't understand what any of you see in Wilhelm, he spends the first two game ssitting smuggly in his office clasping his hands while doing his best Mr. Burn's impressions while saying "Excellent it's all going according to plan" By the time he finally emerges as the main antagonist, I feel he's been completely overshadowed by the far more colorful Albedo and sinister Yuriev. Wilhelm flat out has no real character development and I felt his finally entering the stage was met with less "Awe" and more "About damn time". Minag to me was better because as Forsaken Lover points out, when she first appears, you don;t really expect much from her, and then as the plot goes on you see she has connections with some unsavory people but the player is still in the dark about them as well so you still don't assume her actual role and then finally it all begins to come together and you realize she really is the big manipulator and unlike Wilhelm whose big revelation was that he was the leader of ever organization in the Saga universe, Miang does all while being the most unassuming figure. Miang was a a bit of a surprise, more than Wilhelm's whose introduction and initial role in the story made it obvious he was going to be really important.

Winner: Miang

Krelian Vs Yuriev
Why are they paired - Both characters are normal people who through terrible circumstances, discover the true nature of the world and its grand conspiracy and then both try to manipulate events to pull off their own solutions. Yuriev is trying to destroy U-DO, because he mistakenly feels that U-DO is going to cause the universe to collapse, after he lost his mind during the U.M.N experiments when he made contact with U-DO. Krelian is trying to use the Zohar to ascend humanity to a higher plane of existence to end human suffering, which is why NeoCracker, Elly states Krelian was a kind person, his entire goal was to make it so no one would ever suffer again, it just involved resurrecting a machine god and awakening the true god, so humanity could ride its coattails into a higher dimension. He pretty much states this in-game. :p Though I will say that I feel the Yuriev/Grahf is another valid choice Forsaken Lover.

Both figures are very tragic, and both have their asshole aspects about them. To me, this comes down to whether you want interesting (Yuriev) or empathetic (Krelian) Krelian has the better character development and he's ultimately a less cartoonish villain than Yuriev, but I also can't really count out how utterly original Yuriev's storyline is, whereas Krelian takes cues from Neon Genesis Evangelion, to me it depends on what you are in the mood for.

Winner - Tie
Margulis Vs Karh Ramsus
Why are they paired - I defer to NeoCracker's post. I would also like to point out that Margulis and Ramsus have the same intros into their stories, with both characters arriving at their new base of operations and immediately interrogating a little girl for valuable information for their respected organizations. They also dress in similar clothes.



Ramsus was a man created to be the ultimate key in Solaris' plan, a copy of the aging and decrepit Cain, before he was fully grown he was cast out because Miang had discovered the Contact whom Ramsus was suppose to take the role of. This being shun before he was truly born ultimately gave Ramsus an inferiority complex that drives him and hinders him. Marguilis is a religious zealot who wants to return to Lost Jerusalem because his religious faith states his people will return their one day... which is about all I can say about Margulis. Ramsus to me is just the more interesting character because he's more multifaceted. You see the good and bad in him, and the way the other villains cruelly use his inferiority complex to manupulate him makes him a far more sympathetic being. He simply wants to belong. Margulis is just a unscrupulous zealot whose unaware of being manipulated 9course we get no real details either until the last game) but ultimately... smurf Margulis conviction, I'll take a more tragic and interesting figure (a side villain no less) over a generic military asshole who believes "the mission is everything". Now don't get me wrong, I like Margulis, he was one of my fave guys, but against Ramsus, I feel its clear that Ramsus is just a far better developed character whereas Margulis gets little to no development throught the series. Ramsus could technically fight Elly on equal footing as the secondary main character since a lot of Gears' story is about exploring him and his past.

Winner: Ramsus

Albedo Vs Grahf
Why they are paired - Both initially appear as rather cartoonish villains who then quickly usurp that assumption by being crazy and insanely powerful, and ultimately both characters emerge as their games most sympathetic and likable characters. They're both softies as well but you won't know until your a ways into the plots. I also feel that pairing either character up with anyone else but each other would have made for a one sided deal. I mean techinically an argument could be made for Yuriev and Id to face off with each guy but I kind of feel that both of these guys are so well rounded, they knockout the rest of the competition.

I could go on about what makes both of these guys great, but I don't have that kind of time, so for me it comes down to weaknesses. For Albedo, I feel his story arc jumps around way too much and while it all still makes since when the smoke clears, his motive throughout the games has been much like his personality, all over the place.They also kind of jump the sympathy card pretty early on him, even in Episode 1 you have enough details about his past to feel bad for the guy, Epsidoe 2 just took it to a whole new level, and by Episode 3, his actions clearly have him in the good guy territory. I honestly feel that Albedo does outstay his welcome, Episode 2 (before the final scene) would have been a great conclusion to his story but he's a fan favorite and gets brought back for the third game where he largely doe nothing until the big showdown with Yuriev, so I kind of feel Albedo's story is weakened in the end because his time as a Testament seemed kind of wasted potential to me, it isn't helped that his charming qualities of being battrout crazy is totally absent in this game either. He just ultimately came across very muted, which seemed like a sad way to end such an energetic figure.He still gets a nice ending, but I kind of feel the writer's overextended their hand with him.

Grahf... Is a bit too cartoonishly evil for a long time in the game, while he proves quickly he's a badass, he takes much longer to develop into someone who doesn't look like he stepped out of a Super Sentai series. By the time you reach the end of Disc 1 you're kind of wondering what's going on with him because he's saved Fei and Elly's life a number of times and he comes across more conflicted than the sure MWHHHAHAHAHA evil he started off as. Disc 2 pretty much lays his story on thick for you, but sadly after the revelation of his past and who he is, you only really get one more scene with him so the pacing of his story is off for my taste. He still gets his final moment where he redeems himself but it does feel forced due to the games rushed finale.

Winner - Tie Don't make me choose :cry:

Herman and Richard Vs. The Elements

Why they are paired - They are the recurring flunkies the game tries to convince you are all that, but are largely pushovers.

The Elements got this, largely because they are quirky and fun to watch on screen, whereas Herman and Richard get absolutely no character development and you only find out any info on them and what they even look like (their always piloting their Mecha) unless you go through Japanese only source materials or read the datalogs in-game. The Elements at least have a bit more story and rationale as to why they stick by Ramsus. They are also a Super Semntai team. So extra points their.

Winner - The Elements

To me there are no other real comparisons. The Gazel Ministry, Id, The Testaments, and even Elly's Lamb Unit have no really comparable counterpart. I'll do my write up the heroes when I have more time.

I think they jumped the sympathy shark with Albedo when he was literally carried away by angels who resembled the innocent little girls he mutilated to death.

Also The Elements win out over Richard and Herman just because of teh wonderful hentai material they provide.
Reminds me of my all-time favorite Xeno hentai where a dominatrix Elly is playing with a bound Dominia. It's just so... "this is not what I expected to see at all but now I've seen it, I am glad it exists".

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I think they jumped the sympathy shark with Albedo when he was literally carried away by angels who resembled the innocent little girls he mutilated to death.

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I completely forgot about that... :eep: Might have to give it to Grahf if wasn't for the fact Grahf has a damn catch phrase. Though he still has my favorite line in the game.

“Even if I go to hell, I will live till the end of this world. And if the world does not come to an end... I will destroy it with my own hands!” –Lacan

In fact in just trying to find this quote I found a cool quote page that seriously reminded me of how many great lines there were in this game. Say what you will about its gameplay, but its writing was ahead of its time for the genre.

That quote is indeed fantastic and it is just the exclamation mark on possibly the most powerful scene in the game.



Al can't touch that.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I disagree with two of your hero pairing Jin/Bart and Jr./Billy. The last one especially seems to me that you just made the two gun wielders duke it out. :p

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Purely coincidental I assure you, I simply had no other pairings. :p

The Hereos in this are pretty much such that you can't do any real pairings that don't come across with serious problems if you analyze the parallels to much. :p

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Wilhelm and Minag
Why they were paired - They are the game main antagonists and manipulators, their origins and natures are also the same. Miang really is the cause of all the issues in Gears much like Wilhelm is for Saga. Krelian is there but he's doing his own thing and it still only works if Miang's plan comes to fruition as well, he just added a final phase that isn't part of Miang's programming.

Both Miang and Wilhelm are non-human beings hiding within humanity to manipulate history and allow some terrible events to unfold for the sake of a goal that spans thousands of years. Neither character is truly evil or good, they are simply accomplishing a goal. Miang gets the more villainous light because her plan involves resurrecting a self aware. terraforming anti-planetary weapon system, whereas Wilhelm is simply trying to prevent human conscious from making the realm of real numbers (material world) collapse and take the world of imaginary numbers (God realm) with it by making the universe reset before it reaches a point of no return. Yet the point I'll make is that both characters are largely indifferent to their goals beyond getting them accomplished. Wilhelm is not saving the world because he feels for humanity, nor is Miang trying to end the world because she's some evil meglomaniac. They are both simply constructs fulfilling the purpose they were created for and they both do an excellent job. Granted certrain facors put a wrench in Wilhelm's plan whereas Miang ultimately succeeds in her goal (Hey its not her fault some heroes came and kicked Deus' ass after it finally got restored, her job was just to get it running again not keep it alive.). For me, Miang wins this because... well frankly I don't understand what any of you see in Wilhelm, he spends the first two game ssitting smuggly in his office clasping his hands while doing his best Mr. Burn's impressions while saying "Excellent it's all going according to plan" By the time he finally emerges as the main antagonist, I feel he's been completely overshadowed by the far more colorful Albedo and sinister Yuriev. Wilhelm flat out has no real character development and I felt his finally entering the stage was met with less "Awe" and more "About damn time". Minag to me was better because as Forsaken Lover points out, when she first appears, you don;t really expect much from her, and then as the plot goes on you see she has connections with some unsavory people but the player is still in the dark about them as well so you still don't assume her actual role and then finally it all begins to come together and you realize she really is the big manipulator and unlike Wilhelm whose big revelation was that he was the leader of ever organization in the Saga universe, Miang does all while being the most unassuming figure. Miang was a a bit of a surprise, more than Wilhelm's whose introduction and initial role in the story made it obvious he was going to be really important.

Winner: Miang

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I think both Krellian and Miang are pretty good comparisons to Windhelm, though I still hold Krellian is more apt. Miang may have manipulated Krellian into doing all this, but really it seemed to be Krellian doing the actual planning and moving, much like Windhelm.

And the thing we like so much about Wilhelm is that he isn't just some emotionless thing, he seems to genuinely care about the people he's trying to save. Someone who is 'neither good nor evil and simply just wants to accomplish it's goal' doesn't say the following.

About Albedo: He has a will that shines with such a wondrous Light. It's a shame he serves as little more then a key."
To paraphrase the other, at the end of Episode 2 he seems happy that Chaos, a guy who can potentially interfere with his plans, is going to be entering the stage and 'no longer holding back'.

Not to mention the end, where he seems genuinely happy that they seem to finding another way to prevent the end, even if them doing so risks the end of the universe. None of these are the actions of some guy whose only purpose is to complete his goal. This also is what makes him more comparable to Krellian. Krellian I just thought they did a completely trout job portraying it.

These are the actions and worlds of a man who truly cares about the world, even if at times he doesn't fully understand the people in it. The Idea you can think otherwise astounds me. :p

That said, for the reasons above, He still out classes Miang in her entirety. Were as she does all of these terrible things out of complete lack of any kind of Morals, Wilhelm does it out of what he feels is necessary and quite frankly the only way to save the universe.

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Krelian Vs Yuriev
Why are they paired - Both characters are normal people who through terrible circumstances, discover the true nature of the world and its grand conspiracy and then both try to manipulate events to pull off their own solutions. Yuriev is trying to destroy U-DO, because he mistakenly feels that U-DO is going to cause the universe to collapse, after he lost his mind during the U.M.N experiments when he made contact with U-DO. Krelian is trying to use the Zohar to ascend humanity to a higher plane of existence to end human suffering, which is why NeoCracker, Elly states Krelian was a kind person, his entire goal was to make it so no one would ever suffer again, it just involved resurrecting a machine god and awakening the true god, so humanity could ride its coattails into a higher dimension. He pretty much states this in-game. :p Though I will say that I feel the Yuriev/Grahf is another valid choice Forsaken Lover.

Both figures are very tragic, and both have their asshole aspects about them. To me, this comes down to whether you want interesting (Yuriev) or empathetic (Krelian) Krelian has the better character development and he's ultimately a less cartoonish villain than Yuriev, but I also can't really count out how utterly original Yuriev's storyline is, whereas Krelian takes cues from Neon Genesis Evangelion, to me it depends on what you are in the mood for.

Winner - Tie

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You already know my thoughts on Krellian, and clearly I still give it to Yuriev. I'll just point out that Yuriev isn't trying to kill God, as stated in episode 3 he claims no one can kill U-DO. His goal is to 'absorb that fear into himself and become a god'. He wants to overcome the fear within himself. Bit of a nitpick, but still felt the need to correct you. :p

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Margulis Vs Karh Ramsus
Why are they paired - I defer to NeoCracker's post. I would also like to point out that Margulis and Ramsus have the same intros into their stories, with both characters arriving at their new base of operations and immediately interrogating a little girl for valuable information for their respected organizations. They also dress in similar clothes.



Ramsus was a man created to be the ultimate key in Solaris' plan, a copy of the aging and decrepit Cain, before he was fully grown he was cast out because Miang had discovered the Contact whom Ramsus was suppose to take the role of. This being shun before he was truly born ultimately gave Ramsus an inferiority complex that drives him and hinders him. Marguilis is a religious zealot who wants to return to Lost Jerusalem because his religious faith states his people will return their one day... which is about all I can say about Margulis. Ramsus to me is just the more interesting character because he's more multifaceted. You see the good and bad in him, and the way the other villains cruelly use his inferiority complex to manupulate him makes him a far more sympathetic being. He simply wants to belong. Margulis is just a unscrupulous zealot whose unaware of being manipulated 9course we get no real details either until the last game) but ultimately... smurf Margulis conviction, I'll take a more tragic and interesting figure (a side villain no less) over a generic military asshole who believes "the mission is everything". Now don't get me wrong, I like Margulis, he was one of my fave guys, but against Ramsus, I feel its clear that Ramsus is just a far better developed character whereas Margulis gets little to no development throught the series. Ramsus could technically fight Elly on equal footing as the secondary main character since a lot of Gears' story is about exploring him and his past.

Winner: Ramsus

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'The Mission is everything' isn't really right. 'The Goal is everything' is much more apt. Were it the mission, he would have obeyed Heinline's orders to withhold the Immigrant fleet. Instead he tell's Heinline at the end that he will never relinquish his home. He is fighting in equal parts Religious zealotry and heritage. The breaking of Margulis is also more spaced then Ramsus, happening slowly throughout the events of Episode three. While Ramsus could potentially make the more sympathetic character he himself just wasn't written well enough to make me care.

And I have never been a fan of Villains that were there for the sole purpose of getting their ass kicked by you. Krellian marked one of the reason's it's hard to feel Solaris as a hole was suppose to be threatening. He was pretty much the top general next to Krellian, yet never did I really feel he would be capable of defeating me. Especially not after ID woke up and kicked his ass.

Margulis on the other hand both comes with some growth that makes me feel bad for him, some great story and character bits, as well as being imposing as all hell? Even if Ramsus were to be more sympathetic, Margulis wins out overall for me.

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Albedo Vs Grahf
Why they are paired - Both initially appear as rather cartoonish villains who then quickly usurp that assumption by being crazy and insanely powerful, and ultimately both characters emerge as their games most sympathetic and likable characters. They're both softies as well but you won't know until your a ways into the plots. I also feel that pairing either character up with anyone else but each other would have made for a one sided deal. I mean techinically an argument could be made for Yuriev and Id to face off with each guy but I kind of feel that both of these guys are so well rounded, they knockout the rest of the competition.

I could go on about what makes both of these guys great, but I don't have that kind of time, so for me it comes down to weaknesses. For Albedo, I feel his story arc jumps around way too much and while it all still makes since when the smoke clears, his motive throughout the games has been much like his personality, all over the place.They also kind of jump the sympathy card pretty early on him, even in Episode 1 you have enough details about his past to feel bad for the guy, Epsidoe 2 just took it to a whole new level, and by Episode 3, his actions clearly have him in the good guy territory. I honestly feel that Albedo does outstay his welcome, Episode 2 (before the final scene) would have been a great conclusion to his story but he's a fan favorite and gets brought back for the third game where he largely doe nothing until the big showdown with Yuriev, so I kind of feel Albedo's story is weakened in the end because his time as a Testament seemed kind of wasted potential to me, it isn't helped that his charming qualities of being battrout crazy is totally absent in this game either. He just ultimately came across very muted, which seemed like a sad way to end such an energetic figure.He still gets a nice ending, but I kind of feel the writer's overextended their hand with him.

Grahf... Is a bit too cartoonishly evil for a long time in the game, while he proves quickly he's a badass, he takes much longer to develop into someone who doesn't look like he stepped out of a Super Sentai series. By the time you reach the end of Disc 1 you're kind of wondering what's going on with him because he's saved Fei and Elly's life a number of times and he comes across more conflicted than the sure MWHHHAHAHAHA evil he started off as. Disc 2 pretty much lays his story on thick for you, but sadly after the revelation of his past and who he is, you only really get one more scene with him so the pacing of his story is off for my taste. He still gets his final moment where he redeems himself but it does feel forced due to the games rushed finale.

Winner - Tie Don't make me choose :cry:

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Yeah, I'll disagree on Albedo overextending his stay, even if I do agree that he wasn't really used much. The big reason is yes, it was kind of a good send off for him since he wanted to die, but at the same time even from Episode 2 it was clear that wasn't really what he wanted. It was always clear he just wanted to be with his brother. I guess whether or not you have a problem with them giving the psycho what he wanted in the end bothers you is another story entirely. :p

And yeah, the angle thing was a little much. I won't say it came entirely out of no where due to the Kirswasser's comments from Episode 1, but yeah. Not letting one oddly picked scene ruin it for me:p

And I don't think I'd call it Good guy territory. I mean he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar, and his actions were pretty much entirely for the benefit of Rubedo and no one else. I mean good compared to anything else he has done sure. :p

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Herman and Richard Vs. The Elements

Why they are paired - They are the recurring flunkies the game tries to convince you are all that, but are largely pushovers.

The Elements got this, largely because they are quirky and fun to watch on screen, whereas Herman and Richard get absolutely no character development and you only find out any info on them and what they even look like (their always piloting their Mecha) unless you go through Japanese only source materials or read the datalogs in-game. The Elements at least have a bit more story and rationale as to why they stick by Ramsus. They are also a Super Semntai team. So extra points their.

Winner - The Elements

To me there are no other real comparisons. The Gazel Ministry, Id, The Testaments, and even Elly's Lamb Unit have no really comparable counterpart. I'll do my write up the heroes when I have more time.

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Yes, let's pair people with at least some relevance to two guys there for the purpose of filler. Of course Elements win. :p

On another facet of Xeno vs. Xeno, I think I prefer Gears' soundtrack to any of the OSTs in the Saga Trilogy. Don't get me wrong, Mitsuda was great as usual and Kajiura was superb. Episode 3 also has a pro over both Gears and Episode 1 in that it has a great variety of awesome fight themes which really helps keep the action fresh. Fighting T-elos the final time with this playing helped make that moment forever special to me.

T-elos kinda has a Grahf vibe to her doesn't she. She's the "dark" version of one of the main characters and she and Grahf both want to merge with said character. They also have very similar lines in their corresponding final encounters:

Grahf: "You have awakened. This body is now useless to me. Now I must return to my original body... the reincarnation of my body that you inhabit."-
T-elos:"Mary Magdalene, my will. You've finally awakened. Now that Mary's will has awakened within KOS-MOS, I will take it inside me and complete my resurrection, as the true Mary Magdalene."

Grahf: "He has become one with me, so you too should open your heart and unite with me."
T-elos: "Surrender and become part of me, KOS-MOS!"

T-elos doesn't actually have a personality though. It seems like it because she's so much more emotional than Kossy is normally but apparently that's just an artificial construct made by Kevin.

But yeah, I'm gonna try playing Hepatica next time I have the final showdown with Grahf.

Uh...where was I now? Oh yeah! The music!

So EP3 sweeps in terms of awesome battle themes even though i really like "The Awakening" and "The One Who Bares Fangs At God." It also wins in terms of area music since, again, both XG and EP1 were sorely lacking in that department.
But everything else? I take Gears.

There are plenty of emotional pieces in both Episode 1 and 3 but, for me, none compare to tracks like Shattering Egg of Dreams or Lost...Broken Shards (which is painfully short here but can play for quite a long time in some scens) or Distant/Faraway Promise. Inuyasha has taught me the value of giving your lovers a remarkably beautiful and sweet theme song and Xenogears sports one of the best with this music box tune.

I also think The One Who Is Torn Apart is probably the most interesting piece on any of series' soundtracks. Considering who's theme it is, it's so....light and almost gentle. But therein lies the perfection of the theme. All that softness in the theme is underscored by a melancholy and ominous aspect that perfectly fits Id. He may be a raging beast of destruction but he's not really a Grahf type who needs a big bombastic tune as a backdrop to his villainy. His slow mix of both sadness and creepiness is an excellent fit for a villain who is a force of nature on the outside but a fractured human being on the inside. Having him annihilate your party to this song during the boss fight is just exquisite.

And of course Gears isn't lacking in the just straight up AWESOME music department either. Since were just talking about the Elements, how about I link to one of the best tracks in all of Gears and Saga being used in the best scene in either Gears or Saga.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

I think both Krellian and Miang are pretty good comparisons to Windhelm, though I still hold Krellian is more apt. Miang may have manipulated Krellian into doing all this, but really it seemed to be Krellian doing the actual planning and moving, much like Windhelm.

And the thing we like so much about Wilhelm is that he isn't just some emotionless thing, he seems to genuinely care about the people he's trying to save. Someone who is 'neither good nor evil and simply just wants to accomplish it's goal' doesn't say the following.

About Albedo: He has a will that shines with such a wondrous Light. It's a shame he serves as little more then a key."
To paraphrase the other, at the end of Episode 2 he seems happy that Chaos, a guy who can potentially interfere with his plans, is going to be entering the stage and 'no longer holding back'.

Not to mention the end, where he seems genuinely happy that they seem to finding another way to prevent the end, even if them doing so risks the end of the universe. None of these are the actions of some guy whose only purpose is to complete his goal. This also is what makes him more comparable to Krellian. Krellian I just thought they did a completely trout job portraying it.

These are the actions and worlds of a man who truly cares about the world, even if at times he doesn't fully understand the people in it. The Idea you can think otherwise astounds me. :p

That said, for the reasons above, He still out classes Miang in her entirety. Were as she does all of these terrible things out of complete lack of any kind of Morals, Wilhelm does it out of what he feels is necessary and quite frankly the only way to save the universe.

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I disagree about Wilhelm coming off as caring, to me it seems more like a he's happy to not be bored. Yes let's give the resident psycho path a good start, oh hey, chaos is actually going to do something instead of letting me pull off recurrence again... to me this isn't the signs of a caring guy, just an immortal being who is bored and happy to finally have something come up to challenge hiw well oiled conspiracy machine. I also still stand by the fact that Wilhelm's total lack of development and being mostly a non-entity for two and half games just kills any means for someone to actually give a damn. As I said, Miang wins because her reveal as the big bad was far better handled as opposed to Wilhelm where it became obvious after the first game and then the rest of the story is simply spent with the player wishing he would finally come off his high horse and actually do something. When he finally does, he's already been outclasses by the more involving Albedo and Yuriev. Even among Saga's villains, I feel Wilhelm is my least favorite because there was nothing ever there to really set him apart from the rest. They tried to recreate Miang and Krelian with him and his lack of screen time kills any means of really caring.

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You already know my thoughts on Krellian, and clearly I still give it to Yuriev. I'll just point out that Yuriev isn't trying to kill God, as stated in episode 3 he claims no one can kill U-DO. His goal is to 'absorb that fear into himself and become a god'. He wants to overcome the fear within himself. Bit of a nitpick, but still felt the need to correct you. :p

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You honestly gave a troutty analysis of Krelian that only told me you really didn't understand what he was doing, and I still feel that secretly your real issue is that he never recieved the beat down you wanted to give him, but I feel that just adds to his allure. I like both characters, and both are written well, but Krelian is a far more well developed character, especially since you never really get to see Yuriev's past, simply read about it in Pied Piper.

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'The Mission is everything' isn't really right. 'The Goal is everything' is much more apt. Were it the mission, he would have obeyed Heinline's orders to withhold the Immigrant fleet. Instead he tell's Heinline at the end that he will never relinquish his home. He is fighting in equal parts Religious zealotry and heritage. The breaking of Margulis is also more spaced then Ramsus, happening slowly throughout the events of Episode three. While Ramsus could potentially make the more sympathetic character he himself just wasn't written well enough to make me care.

And I have never been a fan of Villains that were there for the sole purpose of getting their ass kicked by you. Krellian marked one of the reason's it's hard to feel Solaris as a hole was suppose to be threatening. He was pretty much the top general next to Krellian, yet never did I really feel he would be capable of defeating me. Especially not after ID woke up and kicked his ass.

Margulis on the other hand both comes with some growth that makes me feel bad for him, some great story and character bits, as well as being imposing as all hell? Even if Ramsus were to be more sympathetic, Margulis wins out overall for me.

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Seriously, you're going to to argue semantics? You know the internet debate rules, Rule #2 - When you have to start arguing the language used in the debate to prove your point, you've already proven you have nothing left to go on. ( For those interested, here's Rule #1). The fact is Margulis has little development and I don't feel that a bit of questioning his superiors in the last third of the plot amounts to the same as watching the completelt mental breakdown of a character that is played beautifully across the course of a game. Margulis would work in a 16-bit RPG but Ramsus was a complex figure for the future of the genre. Also Margulis got his ass kicked by your party a number of time sin the plot, so I would argue that by the end of Episode 2, I really stopped seeing him as much of a threat and more of a stooge. At least Ramsus' defeat is pulled into his character development whereas Margulis just fails and we pretend like it never happened. Ramsus is just the better developed character and Margulis really doesn't hold his own since he's largely a stock character you can find in other games.

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Yeah, I'll disagree on Albedo overextending his stay, even if I do agree that he wasn't really used much. The big reason is yes, it was kind of a good send off for him since he wanted to die, but at the same time even from Episode 2 it was clear that wasn't really what he wanted. It was always clear he just wanted to be with his brother. I guess whether or not you have a problem with them giving the psycho what he wanted in the end bothers you is another story entirely. :p

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It's more that he's brought back for a cameo. I'm annoyed because I felt him being a Testament would be a bigger deal but since Albedo has a knack for stealing the limelight from the rest of the cast, he gets thrown in as a background character for most of the game so we can finally develop the rest of the villains.

In fact, I would point out this is my main gripe with Saga's villains. With the exception of Albedo and maybe Vergil, the rest of the villains get no development until the last game, or in Yuriev's case, in Japan exclusive side content. They are a great set of villains but they are just never as well developed for me as Xenogears villains were. Albedo is the best villain in Saga, but its also because he gets two and half games to develop him whereas the rest of the villains only get Episode III to really define them with varying results.

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And yeah, the angle thing was a little much. I won't say it came entirely out of no where due to the Kirswasser's comments from Episode 1, but yeah. Not letting one oddly picked scene ruin it for me:p

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I'm not letting this slide, Albedo gets a lame ass overly pretentious send off scene that is more laughable and mood killing than anything else in his plot and it doesn't bother you, but looking at other posts, its because of these "mood killing scenes" that you dislike characters like Billy and Maria and totally ruin any means of caring about them? A bit hypocritical maybe?

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And I don't think I'd call it Good guy territory. I mean he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar, and his actions were pretty much entirely for the benefit of Rubedo and no one else. I mean good compared to anything else he has done sure. :p

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Who is one of the good guys. Thus Albedo came back to help the good guys. He's pretty much responsible for taking out Yuriev so I would say Albedo goes good guy, making a deal with the devil to come back doesn't make him ambiguous if his intentions were noble.

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Yes, let's pair people with at least some relevance to two guys there for the purpose of filler. Of course Elements win. :p

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I could compare them to Elly's Lamb Squad and they would still lose because those two nitwits have no purpose in the plot. Even the Lambs unit has the whole "We're trying to get good with the Solaris military so we can achieve higher class status" and their relationship with Elly as opposed to their rivalry with Fei and Co. show that they are actually a bunch of nice guys when it comes down to it, they just have a lot at personal stake to succeed, as opposed to Herman and Richard who are simply named flunkies that work for Pellegri.


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Gears does have awesome music though I do feel Mitsuda's work on Episode 1 is actually great, its just poorly handled in where it was placed in the game (which is partly why he left the team after the game). I mean these are great tracks that play once in the game.

The guy I know who is like the Xeno Guru also loves Krelian but bleh. I didn't like how late he was introduced and I didn't like how his reward for everyone he killed was to be granted godlike powers. I don't care if he wanted to suck everyone into Deus and then transport them to the higher dimension - that's only the people still alive by the time his plan came to fruition. He's probably been directly or indirectly responsible for hundreds or thousands of deaths before that.

On the named character he screwed over front, Ramsus' whole life has been Hell partly because of him. The dude literally abandoned baby Ramsus in a pile of trash.
And speaking of manipulation, he's pretty much responsible for Hammer's betrayal and death as well. He prayed on his weaknesses just like he did witH Ramsus.

So, no, I'm not going to forgive him. I might be more inclined to sympathy if he wasn't granted phenomenal cosmic powers and knowledge after all the heinous things he's done.

As for EP1 music, it's kinda weird that Inner Space plays during the Proto Merkabah dungeon but it's only one part of the song that loops over and over.

However my favorite one time only song in Episode 1 is "Beach of Nothingness". It's what plays during Margulis' speech here.


I don't think he's as 16-bit s you're making him out to be, Wolf. I think his rousing and impressive aura, and as well as his philosophy and beliefs, makes him as detailed as most other villains of the PS generation.

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Originally Posted by Wolf Kanno

I disagree about Wilhelm coming off as caring, to me it seems more like a he's happy to not be bored. Yes let's give the resident psycho path a good start, oh hey, chaos is actually going to do something instead of letting me pull off recurrence again... to me this isn't the signs of a caring guy, just an immortal being who is bored and happy to finally have something come up to challenge hiw well oiled conspiracy machine. I also still stand by the fact that Wilhelm's total lack of development and being mostly a non-entity for two and half games just kills any means for someone to actually give a damn. As I said, Miang wins because her reveal as the big bad was far better handled as opposed to Wilhelm where it became obvious after the first game and then the rest of the story is simply spent with the player wishing he would finally come off his high horse and actually do something. When he finally does, he's already been outclasses by the more involving Albedo and Yuriev. Even among Saga's villains, I feel Wilhelm is my least favorite because there was nothing ever there to really set him apart from the rest. They tried to recreate Miang and Krelian with him and his lack of screen time kills any means of really caring.

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I think they gave him just enough Screen time actually. True, he didn't get a whole lot, but how would you go about giving a lot of screen time to the guy working entirely from the shadows? I don't deny Miang's reveal was handled very well, but Wilhelm was never intended to be a reveal. You were never intended to be surprised when the characters learn it's Wilhelm involved, so to judge him based off that is silly. Especially with Chaos invovled, there really is no reason he would ever be convinced anyone besides Wilhelm is invovled, so the decide to not bother hiding it from the player.

And your inability to grasp Wilhelm's motives are your own problem. ;P

I don't really think Wilhelm is a villain who would get a whole lot from more screen time, or at least not a lot more. He could have used a bit of time devouted to the events surrounding the Sealing of Anima, but I don't think he was lacking to the point you seem to think. (For example, I loved his bits as Heinlien.)

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Seriously, you're going to to argue semantics? You know the internet debate rules, Rule #2 - When you have to start arguing the language used in the debate to prove your point, you've already proven you have nothing left to go on. ( For those interested, here's Rule #1). The fact is Margulis has little development and I don't feel that a bit of questioning his superiors in the last third of the plot amounts to the same as watching the completelt mental breakdown of a character that is played beautifully across the course of a game. Margulis would work in a 16-bit RPG but Ramsus was a complex figure for the future of the genre. Also Margulis got his ass kicked by your party a number of time sin the plot, so I would argue that by the end of Episode 2, I really stopped seeing him as much of a threat and more of a stooge. At least Ramsus' defeat is pulled into his character development whereas Margulis just fails and we pretend like it never happened. Ramsus is just the better developed character and Margulis really doesn't hold his own since he's largely a stock character you can find in other games.

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Seriously? You're going to quote BS internet debate rules? That's like, worse then breaking one of them. The 'symantics' in this case are important to establish for the purpose of what we are talking about. The goal of Margulis was the return to lost Jeruselum and the recovery of the Artificats of God. The Mission, as given to him by Wilhelm, involved giving up on the Artifacts. The Mission and Goal were in opposition to each other in this case. While he stuck to the mission for so long, he finally turned on it in favor of his goal when he orded the attack with the immigrant fleet.

And having just played the Xenosaga's, Margulis is constantly showed as a threat to your party. You first encounter him and Ziggy barely escapes by activated pre-planted C-4. At the beginning of episode 2 Jin is only spared by virtue of needing to escape.

Jin is also shown unable to fight Margulis one on one on Michtam.

Yes, he doesn't always win. But even when he loses and comes back again, he continues to be threatening. It is about more then just a win-loss record, it's about presence. He never loses his confidence, and is even consistantly effective at his job even after suffering loss's. After ID Ramsus becomes a wreck, and from then on loses any credability. You never even get a fear of fighting a guy in such a desperation. Were his only role in the story was to be pitied by me, I guess he's succeeded.

And Margulis also get's a bit more development with Jin. It's clear their connections are more then just Margulis and his goals. True, Margulis may not be the deepest character ever, but it doesn't change the development he does get is well done, and he fulfills his role in the plot smurfing marvelously.

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In fact, I would point out this is my main gripe with Saga's villains. With the exception of Albedo and maybe Vergil, the rest of the villains get no development until the last game, or in Yuriev's case, in Japan exclusive side content. They are a great set of villains but they are just never as well developed for me as Xenogears villains were. Albedo is the best villain in Saga, but its also because he gets two and half games to develop him whereas the rest of the villains only get Episode III to really define them with varying results.

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It was kind of troutty we never got Piep Piper, but asside from him I still really enjoy all the villains development. Only Sellers I felt got the short end of the stick, and Voyager in the absence of Piep Piper. Yuriev certainly got more with Pied Piper, but from his entrance in 2 followed up by his involvement in 3, he got plenty of development.

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I'm not letting this slide, Albedo gets a lame ass overly pretentious send off scene that is more laughable and mood killing than anything else in his plot and it doesn't bother you, but looking at other posts, its because of these "mood killing scenes" that you dislike characters like Billy and Maria and totally ruin any means of caring about them? A bit hypocritical maybe?

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Firstly, you want to compare a scene where he's carried off by the Realians, which had some set up from the Song of Nephalim bits from episode one, to a Giant ass kicking bunny? The Idea you consider these things at all in the same league is very telling of you. ;P

That said, not only was my dislike of Maria more then that one scene as it was her general pointless-ness, it just killed that scene.

And I didn't dislike Billy. I just thought his arc was badly handled. Especially the end, when litterally we learn in the span of 1-2 minutes we learn that weapon will kill his father, he becomes sad cause he doesn't know when he fired it that would happen, and then his dad goes 'Oh, I already fixed that bug'.

The Albedo Angel scene was at least forshadowed as far back as game one. The exact quote being... "Why do you hurt everyone? My sisters, they all loved something they saw in you. Even after all that you put them through, they still believed in you. How can you desecrate their feelings -- their hearts!?"

It is hurt by never really seeing that side of Albedo, at least not prior to game 3, but it still makes sense they would be there for him at the end. All that was wrong was they went overboard on the imagery. This, in no way compares, to giant battle bunny.

Or even worse giant crucified bunny.

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Who is one of the good guys. Thus Albedo came back to help the good guys. He's pretty much responsible for taking out Yuriev so I would say Albedo goes good guy, making a deal with the devil to come back doesn't make him ambiguous if his intentions were noble.

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...Noble? His goal was entirely selfish. To save his brother. Certainly not a bad thing, though he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar without any real quams. The warning came just to keep his brother safe, it's never really implied that the others, or even the world, factored into this. 'Good guy' kind of fits, but it's a bit of a stretch, though that really is an argument of semantics. :p

And Herman and Richard loose to anyone you'd put them against. Though a couple of their fights in 3 were a bit of a challenge. :p


And to end, yes, I understand Krellian's motivations. I just call bulltrout. To describe, I'll draw a different parallell to him. If we connect Wilhelm and Miang, it would make sense to pair up Krellian with Kevin. Much like Krellian, it was kevin's plans to create KOS-MOS and T-Elos, and acted to free the world from the looming fear of death.

However, at the end, he gets scolded, for lack of better term, that what he is doing is not for the good of all, but more him running away from his own humanity.

This is Krellian, only that's never really addressed and we are expected to believe it was done purely out of love. Pay no mind to the scenes of the past were he grows some obviously powerful feelings of Jealousy and other things when Elly chooses Lacan over him. The game ends by telling us love guided these actions. :roll2

So yes, I do get it and see what they were doing. I just think they did a trout job at it.

And on topic of music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=GlmQiHClfko

That song conveys such a power and disturbing tone it fit's Albedo perfectly.

I really think Wolf or someone should just split all these posts off into a whole new Xenogears vs. Xenosaga thread.

There are so many other areas to compare and contrast and debate about.
I also want to see Bolivar's and others' thoughts on this matter as well. (Bolivar has played Saga right?)

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I also want to see Bolivar's and others' thoughts on this matter as well. (Bolivar has played Saga right?)

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Actually, the reason I've more or less stayed out of this...

:erm:

Please don't think less of me, FL!!!

I'm still all for a thread on this, I love these kinds of debates esp w/ Neo, Wolf and yourself involved.

I really need to play these game soon, though...

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I also want to see Bolivar's and others' thoughts on this matter as well.

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"I mostly agree with Neo".

However... I don't remember enough about every little thing in these games (especially Xenogears, since it left a smaller impression for me) to go into the same amount of details when comparing them, nor can I be bothered to refresh my memory by looking it all up. So I'm basically saying this: "Xenosaga's cast had a much stronger impact on me than Xenogears' cast. Xenosaga on a whole was much more interesting and appealing to me."



...I'll just leave it at that for now though, because getting further involved in the argument without properly refreshing my actual memory would be like jumping head first into a meat grinder. :cool:



...well, I guess I can add one more thing though: to me, the difference in gameplay matters here as well. Gameplay can actually have an effect on my care for characters and story. If the gameplay makes me apathetic, then I will aproach scenes that follow with a different mindset than if I enjoy the gameplay. And I really disliked the gameplay in Xenogears. Xenosaga 2 suffered a bit from this as well, however... most of its characters had already been more or less established in Xenosaga 1, which has a gameplay that I love. Had XS1 suffered from XS2's gameplay, I would probably never have gotten very far into Xenosaga at all. My only drive to get through XS2 was the story and characters, which I wanted to keep following thanks to XS1 and the fact that I knew a third game was coming, which I still had some hope for. But Xenosaga 2 left the weakest impression on me out of the 3 games not only gameplay wise, but also story-wise. Most likely because of the gameplay.

I would have enjoyed both Xenogears and Xenosaga 2 more if they had been in Visual Novel format. :monster:

Because two of you demanded it!

I wonder what they'll say when they notice my interest is already beginning to fade. :p

Well, if nothing else, this at least spares the other thread a page of text-walls. :p

Blade is better than both.

...You know, I would love to argue against that, but I can't. Blade managed to cut out the excess that bogged down Saga and Gears. Finally the guy learned just how much content can be put into a single game, and Blade came out complete in a way he had yet to do.


Still got more enjoyment out of Saga though. :p

I found Saga's cast to be much, much more interesting than Blade's on a whole.

I fully agree with you, but I think in the end Blade is arguably the game with the least amount of things done wrong. :p

But does Blade do the things it does right better than Gears or Saga?

My defense of Gears since I replayed it a year ago is that it is a flawed game...but it does the things it does right really damn well so I can forgive it.

Terrible dungeons? Check.
Characters being totally forgotten or useless? Check.
Combat getting old really fast? Check.

But...

A plot that kept me thirsting for more from start to finish? Double check.
An unrivaled masterpiece of a soundtrack? Triple check.
More ambition than seen in almost any video game before or since? Quadruple check.

There are certainly games that are "better" as a whole. They got fun gameplay and a nice story and a cool soundtrack. Maybe they don't even let entire characters drop off the map never to be head from again.

But I didn't love any character in the game like I did with Gears.
I didn't get all weepy-eyed like I did with Gears' soundtrack.
I didn't come away thinking about all the fascinating spiritual and psychological themes like I did with Gears.

There's a reason Xenogears is such a divisive game. If you are not spellbound by the magic of the plot and music and (some) characters? You're gonna hate this game. You're gonna see nothing but a butt-ass ugly pile of crap with a broken combat system.

Oh yeah, the graphics - that's another big flaw. Those have hurt my eye ever since I first played the game. God they suck.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

I think they gave him just enough Screen time actually. True, he didn't get a whole lot, but how would you go about giving a lot of screen time to the guy working entirely from the shadows? I don't deny Miang's reveal was handled very well, but Wilhelm was never intended to be a reveal. You were never intended to be surprised when the characters learn it's Wilhelm involved, so to judge him based off that is silly. Especially with Chaos involved, there really is no reason he would ever be convinced anyone besides Wilhelm is involved, so the decide to not bother hiding it from the player.

And your inability to grasp Wilhelm's motives are your own problem. ;P

I don't really think Wilhelm is a villain who would get a whole lot from more screen time, or at least not a lot more. He could have used a bit of time devoted to the events surrounding the Sealing of Anima, but I don't think he was lacking to the point you seem to think. (For example, I loved his bits as Heinlien.)

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I think my issue is that we know he's manipualting everything but we don't know until almost the end what his goal was, whereas you figure out Miang's goal by the 2/3rd mark of Gears. My issue really is that he spends two games just plotting in the background and you don't really see much pay off until halfway through Episode 3, so for me Wilhelm's lack of meaningful (to the player) involvement just kind of makes him overshadowed by the villains who are front and center. I can honestly say I was more invested in Albedo and Yuriev than I ever was for Wilhelm because at least I was getting some actual payoff from their stories consistently through the three games, whereas I felt I spent most of Saga just waiting for Wilhelm to actually do something. I just feel like the writers dropped the ball with him and you get like 90% of his actual development in the 11th hour of the plot.

My issue is, that I find it amusing some of you are talking like Wilhelm was inherently good, when his role was that of the Demiurge in Gnostic thought (His true counterpart in Xenogears would actually be Deus itself, but since Deus is a literal but symbolic representation of the being while Wilhelm is the Demiurge, I didn't feel it was a fair comparison) which is the primary antagonist in Gnostic beleif and what both Xenogears and especially Xenosaga borrow as inspiration. Also rewatching Wilhelm's final scenes in Episode 3, he is a condescending bastard who se dialogue largely suggests he looks down on humanity so I don't buy the idea that his noble cause somehow makes him intentionally a nice person. Krelian himself has a noble cause but Krelian also mentions the hypocricy of his actions and goals in the ending of Gears, where he mentions he had to make himself into a monster in order to achieve his goal and thus he knows he can never be forgiven by anyone other than God himself. Wilhelm really doesn't have that paradox, and his inhuman origin makes him exempt from morality concerning humans, at least in his mind since he was willing to sacrifice so much to get his job done. I guess in the end, my issue with Wilhelm is that I don't really believe his actual entrance onto the scene lived up to the hype of two and half games. Miang never had a grand entrace either but her subtle way of being involved in everything was pretty impressive.

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And Margulis also get's a bit more development with Jin. It's clear their connections are more then just Margulis and his goals. True, Margulis may not be the deepest character ever, but it doesn't change the development he does get is well done, and he fulfills his role in the plot smurfing marvelously.

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I'm not going to bother with the semantics debate, but I am going to highlight this as part of my issue with Margulis. Yes, he has a past with Jin, but what is it? They trained together and served together but other than that, the truth behind their bad blood is never actually gone into. What motivates Margulis? I mean yes, he's a religious fanantic, but why is he the fanantic when the rest of Ormus doesn't seem as concerned. Why does Ormus mean so much to him? Who was Margulis in the past? Did his parents influence him and that's why he's fanatical? This is my issue with Margulis. He has no anima, which is baffling because even minor characters like Cherenkov get really detailed backgrounds yet the game never felt it was important to delve into who Margulis is, you just hear a detail or two secondhand from Pellegri and Jin and I feel all three have a fairly ambiguous relationship due to the lack of details, which makes any development from Margulis lose its impact. I mean we know more about Kevin and he has a tenth of the amount of screentime that Margulis has. I'm not saying Margulis is a bad character, he's just not a very developed one, and I feel that Ramsus was not only better developed but his growth as a character was important to the story whereas Margulis just plays the role of a menacing fanatical leader to keep the party busy while the real players (Albedo, Yuriev, and Wilhelm) are actually running the show. I like Margulis, he was a fun character but if I'm comparing him to people with depth, he is utterly lacking. In fact all of the people associated with Ormus/U-TIC get little to no character development except for Cherenkov who was easily one of the best characters in Episode 1.

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It was kind of troutty we never got Piep Piper, but aside from him I still really enjoy all the villains development. Only Sellers I felt got the short end of the stick, and Voyager in the absence of Piep Piper. Yuriev certainly got more with Pied Piper, but from his entrance in 2 followed up by his involvement in 3, he got plenty of development.

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This was one of the underlying issues I have with Xenosaga is that its franchise nature really did a number on the plot in terms of keeping it consistent. I'm kind of annoyed that the cell phone game, is probably one of the most important games in the franchise and not only was it presented on a terrible platform (I can only imagine what the actual gameplay was) but remained a Japanese exclusive. Yoyager is a fascinating villain but you'll never really know unless you play Pied Piper, not to mention the big revelation about Canaan in Episode 3. Thank god the Internet allows people to circumvent getting screwed out of some of this exclusive stuff but I can't help feel it would have been better to not bother going that marketing route in the first place.

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The Albedo Angel scene was at least foreshadowed as far back as game one. The exact quote being... "Why do you hurt everyone? My sisters, they all loved something they saw in you. Even after all that you put them through, they still believed in you. How can you desecrate their feelings -- their hearts!?"

It is hurt by never really seeing that side of Albedo, at least not prior to game 3, but it still makes sense they would be there for him at the end. All that was wrong was they went overboard on the imagery. This, in no way compares, to giant battle bunny.

Or even worse giant crucified bunny.

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No no, there was no set-up, don't try to hand me that pretentious symbolism foreshadowing crap about the realian girls, especially since they are dead and Albedo is basically being carried off like a smurfing Renaissance painting, there is no way that line is some clever setup for this silly scene that really just sucks the drama out of two brothers saying goodbye. It was silly, pointless, and pretentious. I'll agree the Billy scene is handled badly, but I disagree that his whole arc was handled badly. I also like Maria's story because it sets us up for learning more about the purpose of the Wells, and what happened to Old Man Bal's family.

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...Noble? His goal was entirely selfish. To save his brother. Certainly not a bad thing, though he still handed Wilhelm the Zohar without any real quams. The warning came just to keep his brother safe, it's never really implied that the others, or even the world, factored into this. 'Good guy' kind of fits, but it's a bit of a stretch, though that really is an argument of semantics. :p

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Honestly, considering how screwed the party was if Yuriev had kept them, I would say Albedo handing it over was in their best interest, besides, its not like Albedo got to come back for free, so it was his dirty deed so he could save his brothers and get rid of Yuriev and I feel that's a fair trade for him. I don't consider his actions villainous, just doing his side of the bargain. If memory serves me correct doesn't Wilhelm even mention that Albedo really wasn't devoted to the cause?

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And to end, yes, I understand Krellian's motivations. I just call bulltrout. To describe, I'll draw a different parallell to him. If we connect Wilhelm and Miang, it would make sense to pair up Krellian with Kevin. Much like Krellian, it was kevin's plans to create KOS-MOS and T-Elos, and acted to free the world from the looming fear of death.

However, at the end, he gets scolded, for lack of better term, that what he is doing is not for the good of all, but more him running away from his own humanity.

This is Krellian, only that's never really addressed and we are expected to believe it was done purely out of love. Pay no mind to the scenes of the past were he grows some obviously powerful feelings of Jealousy and other things when Elly chooses Lacan over him. The game ends by telling us love guided these actions. :roll2

So yes, I do get it and see what they were doing. I just think they did a trout job at it.

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Well first off, damn, you must believe that Mother Teresa never lied a day of her life, or that Charles Manson was only capable of eating babies and kicking puppies. :p

Krelian was written like all the rest of the cast, and is a flawed person. He was super jealous with Lacan, but when you watch the woman you love die and discover later it was set up that way by the people you thought were your friends and allies and all of this makes you completely lose faith in religion or any cause... I can see some guy going a bit crazy and deciding to make the world a better place whether humanity wants it or not. The jealousy angle never plays in again after Sophia's death, even capturing Elly had more to do with Krelians plan than him trying to date his ex-not-girlfriend's reincarnation and had more to do with the fact that as the Antitype, she has a use for controlling Deus and is a nice means to get Fei and Co. to come when he needs them to. Krelains loses everything and decided that no one should suffer like that, so he incorporates a plan to resurrect Deus and then use his power to force humanity into the higher dimensions and ascend to the realm of god where individuality and petty human concerns cease to be.

He pretty much says all this in his conversation with Fei before the final throw away boss fight. Krelian, like Kevin, gets called out on being a selfish jerk though. Fei's whole dialogue with Krelian was him basically telling Krelian that he was running away and that forcing humanity to go with him was selfish and wrong, Krelian then has Fei battle Urobolus and after Fei proves his conviction of the idea that a flawed existence is a more perfect existence because it forces people to help one another (tying back to the symbolism of the Nisan/Sophia teachings and the symbol of the two one-winged angels who need each other to fly) Krelian relents and decides to let Fei and Elly go while he travels to the higher dimension alone because he knows he is too much of a monster to live among people anymore. As I mention, Krelian himself is aware of his own hypocrisy, but this is ultimately what I feel makes him a compelling villain because he really is simply a flawed individual. He had good intentions but nothing but the near end of the world would allow it to see fruition so he dirtied his hands and became the very thing he once fought against. Yet Krelian gets his revenge, he has Emperor Cain killed, personally destroys the Gazel Ministry, and cursed the people of Shevat. Despite the misgivings with Lacan, he was willing to take Fei with him as well on his plans, trying to convince him that his goal was right in the end. To me, Krelian is a complex figure, he's definitely a monster but his past and his ultimate goal make it harder to simply judge him like he was some sociopath without a shred of remorse. I like the fact that he makes you leave the game with this unsettling feeling concerning him because its far more difficult to simply pigeonhole him as total villain. With Wilhelm they try to recreate this but Wilhelm has no engaging past and his origins as a higher being and his later attitudes with the party in the finale, makes it hard for me to see him in the same light because in the end, Wilhelm's psyche is meant to be alien to normal people. He's not really a well intentioned extremist like Krelian, instead he's a being with orange and blue morality tasked with a cause that seems good in theory. While that's intriguing it lacks the psychological depths that Krelians situation brings forth because since he is human, we can theoretically figure out his rationale.

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Onto the actual main characters.

Fei Fong Wong Vs. Shion Uzuki
Both are the the "main characters" of their games though each has their moments where they are kicked into the background from time to time to let other characters shine. Both are also unaware of their supernatural powers, previous lives, and their existence is kind of central to the plot. Fei wins on account of being better written. The other issue I have is that both characters were written to be flawed people who would sometimes do things that would probably not make the player endear them to them. Fei is certainly a whiny bitch for the first few hours of Xenogears whereas Shion is a pretty selfish downright misanthropic person at times. I was amazed how often she nearly sacrificed the whole party just to save KOS-MOS who time and time again that she's capable of handling herself. My issue is that Fei eventually grows into a better character because the game gives him enough redeeming moments and quiet reflections to make us understand him and see that he can actually become a better person. Shion to me, just doesn't have as many of these moments. I felt she was an intriguing and divisive figure in Episode 1, but after Epsidoe 2, I had begun to lose any sympathy for her, and despite a nice backstory on Old Militia, Shion pulls enough stupid stunts and selfish decisions in Episode 3 that I had pretty much stopped caring as much. Shion is an intriguing character but her story isn't as solid as Fei's and I feel she is flawed to the point of being unlikable too often. I still like her, but she certainly isn't in my top faves of the cast.

Winner: Fei Fong Wong

Elhaym Van Houten Vs KOS-MOS
Both are the important secondary character who is often the catalyst for a lot of the events in the game. For this, I'm giving it to Elly. Why? Despite her story having a very rushed conclusion that wasn't as satisfying as she deserved, Elly beats KOS-MOS on two very important points.

1. Elly is a well developed character whom if we were to even drop the whole reincarnation angle for her, she would still be a well developed and nicely written character. Whereas KOS-MOS has little often subtle development, she's a walking plot device for two and half games. KOS-MOS has no real personality in the first two games. Its not that KOS-MOS doesn't have some development, but KOS-MOS is barely a character in the first game and she's so downplayed in the second title and terteriary titles that I don't even know why they bothered to even spend time to write her in. KOS-MOS is interesting for the mystery she represents but she lacks Elly's importance as a character who not only grows and overcomes her own problems but is deeply connected into helping other characters like Fei grow as well. Elly seems more important in terms of adding real emotion to the characters and story. KOS-MOS is more plot driven. Even KOS-MOS' true identity is poorly developed and rushed as a character which brings me to...

2) The whole revelation that she is Mary Magdeline was stupid. This plot twist is ultimately what killed Xenosaga for me and prevents me from placing it above Xenogears, among other things. Maybe its because I have a religious upbringing so I'm familiar with the Bible and all that but finding out KOS-MOS houses the soul of Mary Magdeline; and her and chaos were BFFs with Jesus in Roman era Jerusalem pretty much killed my suspension of belief. It was silly and utterly pointless in hindsight, I know Xenosaga could be renamed Gnosticim: The Game, but come on! It just felt a bit silly and I never felt it was justified.

Winner: Elly

Citan Uzuki Vs chaos
These two are paied because they represent the "guides" to the party.This one is a bit tough for me because I like both characters, but Citan is going to win this one, largely because he's a more well rounded character and he develops nicely throughout the course of the game whereas chaos' real development doesn't really get off the ground at full speed until Episode 3. Citan is a fun character who balances humor and drama well and the writing of his story is nicely handled, with the player often wondering whose side he's really on even after he lays off bombshells about his past, Citan remains an intriguing figure and I love how his revelation as a spy pans out in Solaris. chaos is a character who suffers from some of the issues I have with KOS-MOS, his connection to that plot twist kind of lessens my love for him, but really his lack of big character growth in the games, just being the pure enigma allowed more well rounded characters like Jr, or darkhorse fave Ziggy to surpass him as someone I would be genuinely interested in. I feel the game dropped the ball just like KOS-MOS and Wilhelm where it spent too much time trying hype up their importance that the revelations felt a bit lacking and when the credits roll, they were all not nearly as fun or interesting as the better developed characters. chaos still has moments where he's salvageable, watching him slowly (and I must emphasize slowly) growing from being a melancholic observer to finally taking a stand was really nice, I just wished he took an active role sometime in the middle of Episode 2 instead of halfway through Episode 3.

Winner Citan Uzuki

Bartholomew Fatima Vs. Rubido/Jr.
Jr. is just so obviously a redo of Bart, both own kickass battleships, both are reckless and have a childish attachment to western lawless occupations (Pirates for Bart, Cowboys for Jr.) and both are more commonly referred to by their crew as Young/Little Master. Course the other big reason to compare these two is because both of their personal stories end up eating large chunks of the games plot. Fei takes a detour stopping Solaris to deal with Aveh's politics and getting the Fatima Treasure while Shion and Co spend a lot of time dealing with the U.R.T.V.s and Jr.'s past. On the one hand, I love Bart, he's a fun guy and I find anytime he shows up in the story to be some of the more funny and action packed moments, but I have to give this to Jr. Not only does Jr. have a more original story, its also well written and intiguing. I may not like Episode 2 and I do still feel the U.R.T.V. section has some poor pacing in terms of gameplay but I can't deny that Jr and the U.R.T.V.'s story isn't the highlight and most redeeming quality of the game. Both characters have more depth than they first show off, but Bart kind of stays a goof ball so when the moments he is serious happens, the player is taken a bit back because of all of it. We never get used to serious Bart, whereas Jr. is much more carefully written to never fall into any real extreme so he stays pretty consistent throughout the games. Jr. for me, has probably the best character development of the whole playable cast of Xenosaga, and while Bart is also a nicely written character, he just can't hold up to Jr.

Winner Ruuuubbbeeeeddddooooo

At this point it gets tricky to come up with comparisons, some only really pair up nicely with people I already compared and other compare better to multiples of characters, while others have no real counterpart. For the most part, this is also where we see a defining difference for Gears vs Saga in characters. For me, I feel the Big Four who largely drive the plots and could be argued to be the main characters generally falls into Gears for having the better characters, the Bart/Jr paring being the one exception; but when it comes to the secondary characters, I feel Saga wins this. Jin, MOMO, and Ziggy are just more well rounded and get better development than Billy, Maria, Esmerelda, Rico, and Chu-Chu. While the Saga characters have their flaws, they are still better written due to getting much better screen time to develop them, either thanks to Saga's smaller playable cast or through spin off titles like Pied Piper.

Winner: Xenosaga

Overall, when it comes to characters, I feel Gears has the stronger primary characters and villains. Saga excelled at building an overall fleshed out cast than Gears. In terms of plot, I still feel Gears is better, in both pacing and actually having a well thought out story. Saga's pacing is erratic from game to game and I felt Episode 2 spent too much time on a side story and let the momentum of the main story fall, so Episode 3 had to really rush through it to get the player back to speed. I also feel the pay off for the main story arcs were genuinely better in Gears. I was quite satisfied with finding out what the villains were doing and the truth behind Fei and the world, whereas I felt KOS-MOS, chaos, and Wilhelm's revelations were not handled as well and were less satisfying to me. Xenogears ending also has better closure whereas Saga ends with a "To Be Continued" that will never come, which is a shame, because despite my gripes, Episode 3 is still the strongest entry in the franchise.

As for where Blade lands in all of this. Xenoblade still lives up to the Xeno standards of world design. I can't think of any other game that has world design as well thought out and ambitious as Gears, Saga, or Blade that isn't some multi-sequel series like TES or Metal Gear. In terms of story, I feel Blade is good but its a very different kind of story, where Blade surpasses its predecessors is in how it utilizes gameplay to really drive home some of the drama. Blade is filled with emotions that the game doesn't illicit from the player through a well scripted cutscene with great music and excellent voice acting. The gameplay pulls a Persona 3/4 by making the player invested in the world so when bad things happen to it, it feels personal. I can't be the only person whose heart sunk a bit trying to do some of the "Hunt Telethia" missions in Alcamoth near the end of the game. You know what I mean...

In terms of deep thoughtful story, Gears and Saga are more robust. Their stories are the main attraction for them, whereas its the gameplay that makes Xenoblade so damn great. Not that Xenoblade doesn't have a great cast and story, in fact its cast is quite well done, but Blade is really slow to get any traction on the real plot and while the final 30 hours of the game are a roller coaster ride with some Gear/Saga levels twists, the first 40 hours to get to that point is a bit of a slow ride though it explores some cool themes like why clairvoyance is a terrible burden. I like Blade's plot but its the game and world design that will be making me come back for subsequent playthroughs. Doesn't change the fact its the best RPG I've played this generation and even if it was released in the last console cycle I feel it would still be one of the greats. What frightens me is that Tetsuya Takahashi later revealed that Xenoblade was a test to see if the team could pull off the title he really wanted to do which is the new X project he's working on for the Wii-U. If he can convince his wife Soraya Saga to come onto the project as the head writer, we may finally get the perfect Xeno game that balances great gameplay and stroytelling. Not going to happen but I can dream can't I?

All i can say is that Xenobalde better be worth it. I'm spending more money on a used copy of it than I am on a used Wii.

$100? Seriously? And then GameStop got exclusive rights to it until the end of he year. So they want me to wait till December to get it from Best Buy. Smurf that.

Those guys are shrewd businessmen and it makes you realize why everyone hates shrewd businessmen.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

All i can say is that Xenobalde better be worth it. I'm spending more money on a used copy of it than I am on a used Wii.

$100? Seriously? And then GameStop got exclusive rights to it until the end of he year. So they want me to wait till December to get it from Best Buy. Smurf that.

Those guys are shrewd businessmen and it makes you realize why everyone hates shrewd businessmen.

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It's a good game, but don't get your hopes way too high. For me, it's certainly not the best RPG of the generation.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

All i can say is that Xenobalde better be worth it. I'm spending more money on a used copy of it than I am on a used Wii.

$100? Seriously? And then GameStop got exclusive rights to it until the end of he year. So they want me to wait till December to get it from Best Buy. Smurf that.

Those guys are shrewd businessmen and it makes you realize why everyone hates shrewd businessmen.

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Xenoblade is a great game, but if you are looking for a story on par with previous Xeno games, Blade is far more subdued, the themes are there and some of his favorite tropes, but its not the involving human drama of his previous projects, though the story and cast are still great in their own right. The game to me is more interesting for its actual game design, the Bionis is such an original concept for a game world and it is beautifully designed. Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised if half the games budget was spent on building the skybox alone because it lends itself well to making the game world feel alive. The game also has a knack for taking questionable game design decisions and making them work. Its greatest feature is how absolutely user friendly it is as a game with automatic quick travel, easy quest completions that rarely require backtracking, and the game does a great job of balancing the game difficulty. One of the less known but awesome features of the game is how every character plays differently from each other. They still use the same interface but each character brings their own element to the battle system. As a person interested in game design, I feel Xenoblade is a modern masterpiece, it has very little waste and about the only gameplay gripe I can give it is that their are still too many tedious sidequests, but because the game has such a user friendly interface, it didn't stop me from doing all of them. Its not often an RPG comes out where it doesn't feel like it has a bunch of superfluous options and content. I need to stop gushing... :eep:

I might as well say this here.

As my Square RPGs with Great Stories topic may have indicated, I'm looking for new RPGs that have really fascinating narratives that will wow me to at least nearly the same degree as Xenogears.

I don't think Blade will do that. It'll probably be a lot of fun and interesting but just not on the same level as Gears.

So i set out to find other JRPGs that will hopefully blow my mind.
This is the one I picked.
(SPOILER)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sona2isbox.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Persona2ep.jpg

I decided on this because:
1. Everyone and their mother says Persona when you ask for well-written JRPGs.
2. Some die-hard fans said that, as much as 3 and 4 were being recommended, 2 was better in the plot department.
3. A guy on the Gamefaqs Xenogears board even recommended the game for having the same "feel" as Gears.
4. Perhaps the flimsiest reasoning yet but I just have a strong attachment to the PS1. I grew up with it more than any other console and so I just had to put my faith in one of its premier JRPG titles. Xenogears was once just another popular PS1 JRPG to me as well and look how much I've become obsessed with it.

I know there's a PSP version of innocent Sin available but I don't own a PSP and I can't play that crap anyway because of my eyesight. I bought the Japanese version and I'll just use a translation patch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Xenoblade and both Persona 2's should be here later this week. I think I'll have a fun month before I go visit my friend in June.

I think Gears is better, I liked the combat better (I never found it any more boring or repetitive than any other rpg) and I thought the story was better.

Xenosaga was a mixed bag because it was so inconsistent throughout in terms of presentation and battle systems. They should have just made the whole series in 1 style instead of trying to reinvent themselves every game. I also despise Episode 2 because I thought everything about the game was just bad. Also, Shion was a terrible main character.

Xenoblade is a fine game but I felt the combat was a bit boring.

That said, Xenosaga and Gears could have greatly benefited from better dialog/writing/translation. I played Xenosaga Episode 3 again last year and I was cringing left and right at the words I heard being spewed forth. As Harrison Ford told Lucas, "You can type this trout, but you sure as hell can't say it." Gears fairs far better because it is never said but there is still plenty to clean up.

Xenoblade has a pretty good narrative. The characters may not be as developed as you would have liked but the story took some very interesting and unpredictable twists and turns that I thoroughly enjoyed.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

I might as well say this here.

As my Square RPGs with Great Stories topic may have indicated, I'm looking for new RPGs that have really fascinating narratives that will wow me to at least nearly the same degree as Xenogears.

I don't think Blade will do that. It'll probably be a lot of fun and interesting but just not on the same level as Gears.

So i set out to find other JRPGs that will hopefully blow my mind.
This is the one I picked.
(SPOILER)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...sona2isbox.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Persona2ep.jpg

I decided on this because:
1. Everyone and their mother says Persona when you ask for well-written JRPGs.
2. Some die-hard fans said that, as much as 3 and 4 were being recommended, 2 was better in the plot department.
3. A guy on the Gamefaqs Xenogears board even recommended the game for having the same "feel" as Gears.
4. Perhaps the flimsiest reasoning yet but I just have a strong attachment to the PS1. I grew up with it more than any other console and so I just had to put my faith in one of its premier JRPG titles. Xenogears was once just another popular PS1 JRPG to me as well and look how much I've become obsessed with it.

I know there's a PSP version of innocent Sin available but I don't own a PSP and I can't play that crap anyway because of my eyesight. I bought the Japanese version and I'll just use a translation patch. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Xenoblade and both Persona 2's should be here later this week. I think I'll have a fun month before I go visit my friend in June.

---

Persona 2 is a great story, but I'll warn you that you'll need to stick with it. The first game is a bit silly at times but it also has some dark and powerful moments but this can sometimes be overshadowed by how ridiculous things get in the plot. The real strength of P2 is in the second act, Eternal Punishment, so much of the game's story really works well if you've played Innocent Sin because you'll understand the parallels between both stories. EP also has a much older cast and the nature of the plot scales up a bit because of the older perspective change. Individually the games are good, together I would argue they are great and I do rank P2 as my second favorite Persona game behind Persona 3 just because the ambitious nature of the story and characters were nice.

I will warn you that the gameplay is hit or miss depending on your taste, MegaTen has never been strong on dungeon design and I feel the Persona series is probably one of the worst offenders in that department, but the battle system is pretty unique and fun, though the actual Persona designs are lacking beyond the character's storyline personas. Overall I would argue that the Press Turn system is vastly superior but then again, I haven't played an RPG since the battle system's inception that has surpassed it but that may just be me, and sadly I still argue the best version of the system is actually Shin Megami Tensei III's version.

Well as we both know Wolf if the story and characters are good, I can tolerate bad dungeons. I don't think there's a dungeon in existence that fills me with mor dread than Babel Tower. I've been traumatized since my first playtrhough of the game where I missed that one platform jump which sends you falling all the way through a loading transition and back to the bottom of the final stretch of the dungeon.

But I've overcome that and beaten the game several times and rank it as my favorite JRPG ever. So if the dungeons in P2 are just lame or bland, no big deal.

Tell me Wolf, since you like Persona 2 and 3 so much, why is Persona 4 so popular? I have done a "JRPG with the Best Plot" thread on multiple forums and Persona 4 is brought up again and again. Other SMT titles are mentioned but not as frequently. P4 also got an anime right and a bunch of other crap.

Speaking of other SMT games however, this guy's summary of Digital Devil Saga sounds like it be right up my alley. This sounds almost like a condensed summary of Xenogears:

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As for suggestions, I cannot suggest the SMT: Digital Devil Saga series enough. Holy crap, the combination of mythological references, meaning of life stuff, mystery, and the ways it plays with characterizations, I love it.

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You know, when my current seriously smurfed up sleep pattern allows me to focus, I will read your giant posts and respond accordingly. :p

I so want to read this and discuss with you guys, especially since I so rarely get into these discussions, but then I see pages of walls of text and I just... *leaves*

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well as we both know Wolf if the story and characters are good, I can tolerate bad dungeons. I don't think there's a dungeon in existence that fills me with more dread than Babel Tower. I've been traumatized since my first playthrough of the game where I missed that one platform jump which sends you falling all the way through a loading transition and back to the bottom of the final stretch of the dungeon.

But I've overcome that and beaten the game several times and rank it as my favorite JRPG ever. So if the dungeons in P2 are just lame or bland, no big deal.

Tell me Wolf, since you like Persona 2 and 3 so much, why is Persona 4 so popular? I have done a "JRPG with the Best Plot" thread on multiple forums and Persona 4 is brought up again and again. Other SMT titles are mentioned but not as frequently. P4 also got an anime right and a bunch of other crap.

Speaking of other SMT games however, this guy's summary of Digital Devil Saga sounds like it be right up my alley. This sounds almost like a condensed summary of Xenogears:

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As for suggestions, I cannot suggest the SMT: Digital Devil Saga series enough. Holy crap, the combination of mythological references, meaning of life stuff, mystery, and the ways it plays with characterizations, I love it.

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Let me state that I don't disagree that P4 has a great plot. Its amazing and its characters are wonderful and what they did with the Dojima.Nanoko Social Links is some of the best writing coming out of Japan in a long time, my beef with P4 is not the story, its the gameplay that bugs me, and without going into too much detail, I'll simply say that P4 made too many unnecessary changes to a set-up that I felt P3 had perfectly nailed. I find the actual dungeon crawling side of the game to be needlessly more tedious and dumb-downed with no benefits for the player than it should have been, and after P3 did such an great job of making that part of the game very user friendly. Its enough to where it prevents me from ranking it above P3. In terms of writing there are thing I feel P3 does better than P4 and vice versa so I personally feel they come out equal in terms of writing.

Story-wise P4 is excellent and if that's all you need I can see why people would rank it higher than P3 but in terms of overall design,I feel P3:FES is still the best entry in the franchise.

In terms of other SMT titles, I did enjoy what I played of Digital Devil Saga, I simply stopped playing because at the time I had seriously burned myself out on the SMT franchise. I should start a new file after I finish my current Suikoden playthrough and the Xenosaga series playthrough I planned after that.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

You know, when my current seriously smurfed up sleep pattern allows me to focus, I will read your giant posts and respond accordingly. :p

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Good luck with that.

Attachment 42741

>>> Gears wins..:luca:

So according to a couple people on SomethingAwful, Persona 3 and 4 are only mentioned more than 2 because:
1. they're newer
2. they're as much dating sims as they are JRPGs

Thoughts?

I have no Idea why you post this in the Xeno debate, but it's more because 3 was the first Persona game to get really popular here. Hell, look how often old games like FF VI and Chrono Trigger pop up.

P1 and 2 also hit a time when JRPG's were at their height, and inevitably got lost in the shuffle of a big rush of the genre.

P3, on the other hand, came at a time when the Genre had begun dwindling outside a few titles, and thus stood out a hell of a lot more. Especially considering how wonderful of a game it was.

And I have no idea why, but I read your post now Wolf, and after I read a paragraph I already forget what I had just read. My mind cannot focus on discussion right now. :(

I'm posting this all in the Xeno thread because making a new topic for it be kinda pointless.

Also aren't you basically saying P3 and P4 just rose to prominence due to being big fish in a small pond?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

So according to a couple people on SomethingAwful, Persona 3 and 4 are only mentioned more than 2 because:
1. they're newer
2. they're as much dating sims as they are JRPGs

Thoughts?

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The first one is probably accurate, the second point I wouldn't count as I feel from experience talking to people, that describing it like that is just as much of a deterrent as an appealing factor.

I'll partially agree with Neo on this. The first game came out between Chrono Trigger and FFVII. It only did well because it was one of maybe four RPG title available outside of Japan on the Playstation and it quickly disappeared from the limelight after Square splashed onto the scene in 97. Which may have been a saving grace because beyond the game's novelty and B-Movie plot and cast, it's pretty blah as a game. Persona 2 Innocent Sin was never released outside of Japan, most likely because of the elements dealing with Nazi's and some of the violence against minors. Despite its often silly plot, the game does have some really dark scenes that many Westerners would find objectionable. Eternal Punishment was released in 2000, around the time Playstation RPG fans were either playing Chrono Cross or FFIX. The PS2 was also getting released so the game fell through in the shuffle and became a cult hit for the few people who picked it up and liked it.

Persona 3 is an example of the Earthbound/Xenogears/Suikoden II phenomena, where its initial release in 2007 was met with great reviews and modest sales but the game was largely overlooked thanks to most people being more concerned about the first year games coming for the Wii and PS3 which had been released holiday season the previous year. Not to mention Bioshock was released like a week after P3 was. From what I gather, P3 didn't really get much traction until FES was released because the word of mouth of other RPG players created more interest, so when FES was released, it met with a bit more success. So it was a sleeper hit much like Xenogears and Suikoden which were both more popular years after their initial releases. P4 also had issues because it really was one of the last notable titles released on the PS2 before people stopped caring.

So the series has always kind of struggled but ite been getting more and more popular and as of now, I beleive Atlus has stated its their best franchise, which is probably why they are taking their sweet time with Persona 5. The amusing thing is that Persona fanbase is in a similar situation as FF fans where fans of the first two installments are pretty annoyed with the entries that made the series a household name. Its not uncommon to go into a Persona forum and not have at least one person remark that the series was better before P3 came along and made the series into an otaku dating-sim series.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

And I have no idea why, but I read your post now Wolf, and after I read a paragraph I already forget what I had just read. My mind cannot focus on discussion right now. :(

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It is okay, I really wasn't expecting you to respond.

Persona was a spinoff of the Shin Megami Tensei series. This is obvious to anyone who has played it and the SMT games. Unfortunately, the first one isn't that good. It introduced some solid concepts for the basis of the new IP, but had lackluster writing and not enough to give it its own identity.

P2 fleshed things out a bit, and with its second installment really began to nail the writing quality of the series.

P3 is where the series really hit its stride, and really became its own series, rather than a SMT spinoff.

P4 experimented with and refined P3's formula, with mixed success. Writing generally improved (especially in the Social Links), the dungeon was much better integrated into the game, and a number of minor features were refined or polished. However, combat was dumbed down unnecessarily, yen was way too scarce (it was too plentiful in P3, sure, but that's better than P4's grindfest), and tone and atmosphere generally weren't as well used as they were in P3. Also, I dislike the small scale of events after the epic scale P3 had.

I have to say P3 is the best of the series as well. But P4, and especially P4Arena, do show huge potential for the future of the series.

Well, not much else to say really now that I've read your post. Our disagreement on Krellian are simply how well we each feel he is written, and Wilhelm we got entirely different views on him as a character, so it's difficult to even discuss him. We may as well be discussing to completely different people. :p

Ramsus I can agree I like the premise, but he was never able to do it for me as a villain because all there really was between the two of us was pity. I wont' deny he had more backround then Margulas. In the end though, I put more value in his force of personality and presence, even if his history was lacking in content.

The Albedo thing is just something that bothers me a lot less then a giant battle bunny. :p (Or a giant crucified battle bunny for that matter).

The Albedo good guy thing is just semantics and nit picking small trout.

As for the character pairings, you have no argument from me on Fei and Shion.

And I see what you are saying with Chaos and Citan, but as a character I really enjoyed Chaos. Lack of development on his story is a bit sad, though at the same time as a Character he works so well. Though the big reason I pick him over Citan is, as awesome as he is, I think he might be too awesome. He always just seem so in control and on top of things, it's hard for me to feel there's much tension or drama in his actions.

Also with you on Bart and Jr, Bart just stayed the goof to much.

I disagree with Elly and KOS, but this is mostly because I got a bit bored with Elly, as well as the whole 'pre-destined' love thing. Also though I really enjoyed some of KOS-MOS's sublte growths of personality in game 1, even if 2 didn't expand and 3 kind of jumped ahead with it a bit to fast.

Finally, we can both agree Yuriev and Albedo do outshine Wilhelm, even if I do like Wilhelm. :p

Curiously, Wilhelm has one of the best lines in the whole Trilogy and it's about Yuriev.

"He's a truly fascinating human being. In order to conquer his fear, he chooses to absorb that fear and become that fear himself."

Poor Yuri Lowental (Kevin's VA there) gets so much hate. EP3's dub wasn't as good as 1's but I was satisfied with his performance. I guess he's just a bit overexposed.

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Originally Posted by NeoCracker

Well, not much else to say really now that I've read your post. Our disagreement on Krellian are simply how well we each feel he is written, and Wilhelm we got entirely different views on him as a character, so it's difficult to even discuss him. We may as well be discussing to completely different people. :p

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We mostly are, though I'm pretty sure my interpretation is the correct one. Wilhelm is a bit of a condescending ass in Episode 3.

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Ramsus I can agree I like the premise, but he was never able to do it for me as a villain because all there really was between the two of us was pity. I wont' deny he had more backround then Margulas. In the end though, I put more value in his force of personality and presence, even if his history was lacking in content.

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Ramsus to me evolved beyond a simple villain to a tragic figure in the story. I don't think we the player were meant to think of him as a threat for very long. To me, Ramsus gave me something different whereas Margulis' lack of backstory and context made it hard for me to see him as special as his archetype is pretty common. He just doesn't stand out as much, especially when he's competing with better developed villains like Yuriev and Albedo.

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The Albedo thing is just something that bothers me a lot less then a giant battle bunny. :p (Or a giant crucified battle bunny for that matter).

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Neither really bothered me to be honest. Both scenes still make me cringe but at least I get a laugh out of the Chu-Chu scene. I never really understood the amount of hate she got from fans, except maybe the same issues VII fans have with Cait Sith being a bit too goofy for their "seriously serious" mature RPG. :roll2

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The Albedo good guy thing is just semantics and nit picking small trout.

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I'm still right.

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As for the character pairings, you have no argument from me on Fei and Shion.

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I still appreciate Shion as a character, I just felt the writer kind of lost their way with her midway through the story. I think its really hard to write a true flawed hero.

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And I see what you are saying with Chaos and Citan, but as a character I really enjoyed Chaos. Lack of development on his story is a bit sad, though at the same time as a Character he works so well. Though the big reason I pick him over Citan is, as awesome as he is, I think he might be too awesome. He always just seem so in control and on top of things, it's hard for me to feel there's much tension or drama in his actions.

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The funny thing about this, is that I initially felt that way about chaos, I kinda kept imagining that he could really resolve all of the issues in the story if he got off his ass and did something. Which turns out to be theoretically true, though I really felt they should have developed his situation better. While I can agree that Citan does reek of Mary Sue at times, I feel the fact he's written so his allegiance is always in question makes the fact he's so damn perfect more interesting and menacing.

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Also with you on Bart and Jr, Bart just stayed the goof to much.

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He does, but I appreciate it, especially since his moments in the plot often lighten the mood after some of the plots more serious moments and I liked that it gave this contrast. To me, this is partly why I do think Xenogears worked better as story for me because had its mind rape serious moments and then would turn around and be goofy making you think everything is going to be alright, so when it goes back to mind rape mode it just gets you more. I feel the failed attempt to liberate Aveh is a great sequence of this, because Bart gets caught, his butler tries to save him only for the machine to malfunction and making the escape more comical and make you think this isn't going to be so bad, only to have Bart's next scene be with Id's first actual introduction in the story and that whole sequence ends everything very bleakly.

Xenosaga was just a bit too serious for its own good at times, to the point where even when it tried to be funny (usually at Allen's expense) it just feels a bit too forced. Granted, I'll agree this contrast of humor and seriousness doesn't always work in Xenogears favor but I can often forgive ruining a moment for humor. It made me laugh, I can't say I wasn't enjoying myself can I?

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I disagree with Elly and KOS, but this is mostly because I got a bit bored with Elly, as well as the whole 'pre-destined' love thing. Also though I really enjoyed some of KOS-MOS's sublte growths of personality in game 1, even if 2 didn't expand and 3 kind of jumped ahead with it a bit to fast.

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KOS-MOS' whole story revelation just fell flat for me and ultimately ruined her for me, there wasn't much left to fall back on since she's a Rei Ayanami expy and what growth she did get from the first two games is too subtle to really draw any interest for me. I just really like Elly, I felt she does a great job making Fei a better character and I like her story. I actually like the "pre-destined" element but I'm a romantic at heart, yet for me, Elly was more than that, and I still feel even if that part was dropped I would still like her, because her character was well developed and she did really grow and change. I liked that even when she started to suffer from being the helpless damsel in distress she still has moments where she takes charge and shows she's just as competent as the male characters. She's that nice mix of being competent yet still vulnerable.

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Finally, we can both agree Yuriev and Albedo do outshine Wilhelm, even if I do like Wilhelm. :p

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My love for Wilhem ended after Episode 3, but I'm happy we can at least agree about something concerning Xenosaga.

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Originally Posted by Del Murder

Xenoblade has a pretty good narrative. The characters may not be as developed as you would have liked but the story took some very interesting and unpredictable twists and turns that I thoroughly enjoyed.

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I liked the story and that ending came out of left field and yet, it didn't really feel as though they pull some bulltrout out of their hat. That is hard to pull off. I plowed through the game because the story was so compelling. I found the side questing and stuff to be overly monotonous because I didn't really care for the battle system...and I love .hack and FFXII :/

As someone who played Xenogears way back when and read all of the perfect works stuff when it was still readily available online Xenogears gave you so much more of the complete story than Xenosaga did.

Xenogears has probably been the longest jrpg ever created and it had a ton of depth. It gave you a very detailed story about what they were currently doing as well as gave you backstories for everything that came before.

When Xenosaga was announced it was supposed to be a re-telling of all six episodes from perfect works. Quite frankly it failed miserably at accomplishing the goal it set out to do. Game one was about a third of the size Xenogears was and didn't do nearly as good of job of developing the world as Xenogears (mainly because it was so much shorter). Episode 2 came out and their had been a big turnover production wise and it really showed in the game. The series was all but done by Episode III and many fans had already given up hope for the future of the series. Though Episode III turned out to be a pretty good game it just showed how poor of job they did at trying to do a re-telling of perfect works.


You can say what you want about Xenogears but at least Xenogears did a much more thorough job of telling the story of perfect works than Xenosaga did (the only reason Xenosaga was created in the first place was to tell that story and it failed miserably at it). Instead of giving you six episodes from perfect works xenosaga gave you two at the most (as episode 1 of perfect works was about the galactic war that was going on and it ended when they went searching for a new planet to settle on).

Xenosaga became its own thing pretty quickly. Given that Square owns the rights tO Xenogears, Takahashi and crew couldn't very well actually do the episodes detailed in Perfect Works.

What's more, the six part Xenosaga saga was supposed to be split into two "arcs" with the first three games focusing on Shion.

Of course there are plenty of allusions but no outright connections. An example would be Mai in XSIII - she is pretty much a Maria clone. (They were both total cutie pies.)

I would have loved to see Episode IV of Gears but Xenosaga was never going to give us that so I'm not gonna hold that against it.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Xenosaga became its own thing pretty quickly. Given that Square owns the rights tO Xenogears, Takahashi and crew couldn't very well actually do the episodes detailed in Perfect Works.

What's more, the six part Xenosaga saga was supposed to be split into two "arcs" with the first three games focusing on Shion.

Of course there are plenty of allusions but no outright connections. An example would be Mai in XSIII - she is pretty much a Maria clone. (They were both total cutie pies.)

I would have loved to see Episode IV of Gears but Xenosaga was never going to give us that so I'm not gonna hold that against it.

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It was meant to be a re-telling of perfect works. Everyone knows they weren't able to have the same characters as they did in Xenogears but the themes of each episode was meant to be the same. How many arcs there were to be in Xenosaga consistently changed as they began having a difficult time finishing things off. Shion's arc was never supposed to last three games. Takahashi originally wanted each game to have a separate group of main characters but when he realized that wasn't possible he changed it to each arc would last two games. It wasn't until the series was all but canceled that they decided to finish it off with three.

Well I read a whole article on the History of both Xenogears and Xenosaga and I don't recall that. I'm pretty sure the first three games were always supposed to be Shion's Arc.

However the site is not working for me right now(omething about blackhole exploit kit) and so i can't check it to be sure.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well I read a whole article on the History of both Xenogears and Xenosaga and I don't recall that. I'm pretty sure the first three games were always supposed to be Shion's Arc.

However the site is not working for me right now(omething about blackhole exploit kit) and so i can't check it to be sure.

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No I read it to and I remember what things were supposed to be when the series was being developed. It was only three games for Shion when the series was basically cancelled and they used Ep. III just to wrap everything up (Ep. III was supposed to be Ep. II before all that turnover took place with the production team).

Ep. I was originally supposed to end with that battle with Albedo that ended up being in Ep. II. Everything in Ep. III was originally supposed to be in Ep. II. Ep. III was supposed to be part of a new arc.

Well if you read the article then you should also remember that the six game story arc was only at the very onset of the development. Later interviews indicated that there might only be four episodes even.

What you said about Episode 1's original intention just shows Takahashi has more vision than common sense. There is no way you could cram all of Episode 1 and 2 into athe same game. Even if you trim the BS in EP2, it still would be insanely long. The way I hear it, they spent a ton on Episode 1 as it was so you can imagine what tacking on another ten or twenty hours of cutscenes would have done to their budget.

The point is that Takahashi's plan for a six game series was something conjured up way back in the beginning and is akin to a fish wishing it could grow wings and fly; eventually reality set in and both realized that just wasn't going to happen.

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Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover

Well if you read the article then you should also remember that the six game story arc was only at the very onset of the development. Later interviews indicated that there might only be four episodes even.

What you said about Episode 1's original intention just shows Takahashi has more vision than common sense. There is no way you could cram all of Episode 1 and 2 into athe same game. Even if you trim the BS in EP2, it still would be insanely long. The way I hear it, they spent a ton on Episode 1 as it was so you can imagine what tacking on another ten or twenty hours of cutscenes would have done to their budget.

The point is that Takahashi's plan for a six game series was something conjured up way back in the beginning and is akin to a fish wishing it could grow wings and fly; eventually reality set in and both realized that just wasn't going to happen.

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The six game story arc was what they originally wanted to do and what they were selling the seies to fans on. It was only after the series started failing that they started settling on the shorter series of strictly Shion.


If you want to accept Xenosaga for what it ended up being that is perfectly fine. But I as someone who played Xenogears before Xenosaga ever saw the light of day and read all the hub bub about Xenosaga I know how much of an ultimate failure Xenosaga ended up being from what it originally was supposed to be.

That is why in my eyes Xenosaga in no way compares to Xenogears. Xenogears came much closer to the original vision than Xenosaga did.

You could have put that much detail into Xenosaga (all of Ep 1 and II) in a single game if they chose to make it less graphic heavy (don't think voice acting was that expensive). Give it really good PS1 style graphics instead of good ps2 graphics. Only problem is their probably would have been a lot of gamers who would turn their nose up at it because of the graphics but that could have been a way they could have fit all the story in.