It's time to argue about this again
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It's time to argue about this again
It's time to make my list again. There is only one right answer. :mad2:
Aeris rolls off the tongue better. Aerith sounds like you bit your tongue.
Only because you knew Aeris first ;)
my game says Aeris. its Aeris. its also Shaibana or what ever else i named her.
its truly the Final Battle
Aerith.
and in 4 versions of my game yuffie says one sentence that is both german and english at the same time. it is nonsense nonetheless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
origin + intention
Except Aerith is not a retcon and if you think the retcon of Genesis is not what has happened, then you are just for the sake of being stubborn ignoring what is a fact. Just like everyone else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
I've been calling her Aerith since they corrected the mistake in Kingdom Hearts, so... Aerith.
Nah sephiroth i was joking. tis all but silly banter
I like to point out that I like the sound of Aeris, or "Taiduhs" or "Reina" for what it is worth. I am just neurotical when it comes to over-analyzing.
whos reina. also what is the real pronounce for tidus (oh please dont be teedus)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Reina is an alternative translation of Lenn, G
Reina is a mistranslated "Lenna". There is a difference between a legit translation (Aeris out of Earisu, Reverse (Bizarro) Sephiroth out of Ribasu Sefirosu, Reina) or a right translation (Aerith, Rebirth Sephiroth, Lenna). And yes, it is Teedus. I also think Tide-uhs sounds better but it is Teedus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galufwhos reina. also what is the real pronounce for tidus (oh please dont be teedus)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Perfect and intended: Sefirosu -> Sephiroth, Earisu -> Aerith, Kuraudo -> Cloud, ...
Looks like a change but actually was supposed to mean that from the beginning: Tida -> Tidus, Zakkusu -> Zack, ...
Purposely changed: Butz -> Bartz, Tina -> Terra, Salamander -> Amarant, ...
Legitimately translated but mistranslated through missing the point: Aeris, Reverse, Terrahoming, ...
I knew Aeris first, but it always looked awkward to me. Aerith is more elegant, IMO.
Hm. Maybe it's a good thing they don't say his name in the game, then. The guy gets teased enough without people knowing how to say his name.
Well, James Arnold Tyler (is that what his name is?) says it and for the first time in FFX history the Audio Drama mentions it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayen
teedus.
life ruined forever. whats next Zi dan??? or Zeye dan? or Zeye Dane?
She will always be Aeris to me. I know that was not the original intention but it's too late now. My love for Final Fantasy came from this game and I would not be a part of this forum without FFVII. There is not a single game that comes close and I lived and breathed these characters for years.
When she cheekily offered one date in exchange for protection. When she protected Marlene from getting crushed by the pillar collapse. When you messed up the Gold Saucer show and she loved you anyway. When she prayed for Holy.
She was always Aeris. She always will be for me.
It's actually zi-DAHNQuote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
Quote:
Originally Posted by FynnIt's actually zi-DAHNQuote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
I only tell you the truth, sweaty. Go play Dissidia and see for yoursekf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Dissidia LIE how could you betray me my fynnyfynn
Zidane is more or less pronounced "Jidan" in Japanese, which is why he is pronounced Zeedahn (but not as long as you might think). I hope that explains it well enough. It is not all that great to explain things this way so it is understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by GalufQuote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Dissidia LIE how could you betray me my fynnyfynn
Double post for educational purpose.
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/8...1454702281.jpg
Source: Final Fantasy VII Japanese Instruction Booklet, p. 6-7, released in 1997, owned by Square Enix
Interestingly enough even Barret is Barett (from Baretto) but I guess the Barret can be forgiven. Sort of.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
And together they form the MIDGAR FORCE *cue olden batman music"
Looking at this thread it seems like half of you are going to be raging right off the bat when the remake comes out.
But her name was spoken out multiple times in CC and KH already so if they were raging they probably calmed down already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheesh
Raging over a name? Man we may act like 6 year olds. but we certainly dont act like 5 year olds. pff
I like Aeris waaaaay better.
It doesn't matter because she (SPOILER) DIES
URMAIGERDWUHT?Quote:
Originally Posted by starlet
Yeah but then what are they going to put on her gravestone? :colbert:Quote:
Originally Posted by starlet
It was Aeris when I first played it so I've always called her Aeris.
Half of us has already raged, and the remake hasn't even come out yet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheesh
Just from an outsiders perspective this is what the Aeris people sound like.
"hey man, this guy I know, Mick, is coming to the party later."
"sounds good."
*mick arrives*
"Hey Mick, nice to meet you."
"Oh, actually my names Mike, but nice to meet you too."
"GET smurfED YOUR NAME IS MICK JUST SHUT UP!"
I think I would not know what to do with my life if they decided to call her Aeris in the remake. I mean by now they are aware of it so if it is a purposely done change in the West, then okay. It would be a Tina-Terra, Butz-Bartz thing then.
i think that Aeris and Aerith.... ARE SPLIT PERSONALITIES
Bob brought that joke up in an old thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
Great minds think alike. (soup is not a drink BOB!)Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothBob brought that joke up in an old thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
Only if Mick/Mike is a fictional video game characterQuote:
Originally Posted by Pheesh
1998 are you....are you backkk...:ohdear: please be back...
I prefer Aeris. Aerith sounds like saying her name with a lisp. Aeris just sounds better, this is a fact.
I can't even.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crop
*no positive speechlessness*
People seem to think 'Aeris' fans are the angry ones, but I'm pretty sure the Aerith purists are the worst, they're too easy to rile.
And it is a fact. It can't be denied and the intended choice of Aerith was a mistake, they should have gone for the superior option.
...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crop
No ... that is too easy. One of the easiest troll comments in my 12 years of internet arguments.
Aerith is her correct name.
But it's Aeris for short.
Square are consistently screwing up pretty simple names though, so I can understand not wanting to trust them when they say it in things like Crisis Core. After the debacle of 'Tidus' and 'Zidane' I won't be surprised by anything. Expect to see a remake AVALANCHE team consisting of Bye-gs, Wedd-geh and Jee-see.
It is not "Aeris for short", it is no abbreviation or anything. It is a Latin word that does not describe her name. And Crisis Core is as official and canonical as it gets. Plus every manual and picture ever released.
I always say Aerith. That was used more in the Compilation so I'm used to it now, even if I began with Aeris in FF7.
I apologise for attempting to be funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Aeris is one letter shorter you see. Hence 'Aeris for short'.
I couldn't care less if 'Aerith' is the correct name (which it is and I acknowledge that)...
...she is Aeris to me :colbert:
Laughed harder than I should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
calling me a sweaty.Quote:
Originally Posted by KalevalaLaughed harder than I should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
:colbert:
And Rinoa Heartilly will always be Seifer's sloppy seconds to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin Heartilly
It's nice that the polls keep track of the names. Makes it easier to make my enemy list. :shifty:
it ok sweaty i have 3 PhDs in engilhsQuote:
Originally Posted by Galufcalling me a sweaty.Quote:
Originally Posted by KalevalaLaughed harder than I should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
:colbert:
an a hae 4 PdHs in egiush waht is youre pont?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynnit ok sweaty i have 3 PhDs in engilhsQuote:
Originally Posted by Galufcalling me a sweaty.Quote:
Originally Posted by KalevalaLaughed harder than I should have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
:colbert:
considering every time i hear her name in Japanese it's air-ee-su and not air-ee-thu, i'm gonna say Aerith is the correct spelling with Aeris being the correct pronunciation... just the same as Tidus and Zidane sound closer to their Japanese pronunciations of tee-dus and jee-don Aeris sounds closer in my opinion to air-ee-su... of course if i were an American voice actor i'd want to hear the original pronunciation before laying the translation down in stone and causing all of this...
There is no "th" sound in Japanese and they always replace it with "s"Quote:
Originally Posted by Elly
I call her what she is called in the relevant game/media.
If I am referring to her without referencing, I call her what she was called in the original game that started it all.
So Aeris generally, but when referring to Crisis Core, Aerith.
Keep in mind Aeris introduces herself as Aeris, so that doesn't quite work. More fitting...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheesh
"Hi, my name is Monique."
"Hi, I'm a person who has known Monica since she was in her mother's belly. Her name is Monica. It's definintely Monica."
"Hi, I've known Monique since she was a child, and it's Monique, definitely."
"Hi, I'm her parent. No, her name is Monica. We wanted to call her Monica but we accidentally put Monique on the birth certificate, and now she goes around calling herself Monique anyway, as do a lot of her friends. But at some points in her life she has also called herself Monica, so her name is totally Monica. But to be honest, when we enhanced the videos/stories we had of her during the times she called herself Monique in those videos/stories, we decided to keep calling her Monique. We've just found out that there is additional writing/footage of that stage in her life and we're not sure if we're going to label her Monica or Monique in that just yet, but I'm sure one friend will be very happy and gloat about it while the other will get defensive. Her friends are weird. We try to ignore them."
That's not how sloppy seconds work :colbert:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's KnightAnd Rinoa Heartilly will always be Seifer's sloppy seconds to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin Heartilly
It's nice that the polls keep track of the names. Makes it easier to make my enemy list. :shifty:
and also:
AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS
Fynn has already mentioned everything necessary. They replace sounds but it does not change what it is. Sephiroth is not pronounced Sephiros (or should I really go the whole way and tell you that you all pronounce it wrong because the actual word is pronounced "Sephirot"? no, because the character's name was written with a "su" to show his pronounciation is the English one), Aerith is not pronounced Aeris. "The" is also, depending on which "the"-pronounciation replaced with "za", for example. The foreign word "Bird" is written as "Bado", as the "a" is supposed to imitate the "err" sound of "Bird", same for the "err" sound in "Birth".Quote:
Originally Posted by Elly
And Bob, Aerith does not introduce herself as Aeris. When the translator writes in that textbox "pre89iuq34n985uü 32urhp3iq4u" she does not introduce herself as that.
You know full well I'm referring to default names provided by the game, and the name that comes in the game manual. Don't act dumb to the point. :p
EDIT: FYI, I'm honestly certain that Square Enix don't give a crap what fans call her and I think that people who argue it to death as if it's a serious matter need to learn that characters can have more than one official name.
The default name in the program is Aerith, the translator just changed it for weird reasons when the naming window was triggered. And I do not dumb act by this point because whether "lfsklk.afjdsökgrjlk" is written in the text box or in the naming window is really of no relevance here. It is all the same. Hell, do you know how many German words in the Atelier RPG series are mistranslated? They are still the German word, not the weird version of whatever was understood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Never argued that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Or, alternatively the others need to accept the fact and learn how those things work and that right is not the same is legit as well as that a retconned version to correct a mistake already voids the mistranslated name. Basically the entire existence of it as a mistranslation voids it. There is a difference between "oh, but let's take that as Western version now, we are aware of what she was supposed to be called" and "Imma call her Aeris because I think that is what she is called". I am the first guy who mentions if there are more correct official names and I am sure this fairness can be seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Aeris is a legitimate translation but not the right one. I want to know what time it is. I am asking you "could you please tell me what time it is?". You answer "yes". That's it. Legitimate answer to a legitimate meaning of my sentence as you have the ability to tell me. But that is not what was meant. I wanted to know the time, so after your "yes" more had to come. Therefore not the right answer in this situation - with a very obvious established context - and therefore an error in communiation and a disturbance of communication.
There are more examples but i think it is good enough to get the point.
In terms of information about games from Final Fantasy series, I trust this website. :hattip:
However, I'm a little surprised that one of EoFF skins is named "Aeris Reborn"... :noidea:
Everytime I read something about Final Fantasy and a Wiki ... no ...
The FF Wiki is actually pretty reliable
Yep! It also mentions that her name is "alternatively Aeris". People who get defensive about one side or the other are silly (and I used to be one of those people).
Today I learned that Barret was initially intended to be Bullet. I'm so glad they named him Barret.
EDIT: Regarding the mistranslation malarkey, come on, you really think that half the words in any language aren't just typos and mistranslations that became actual things? xD
Because she's Aeris :colbert:Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanmato
Except when it isn't. And Bob exactly confirms that with his "they alternatively ...". Such things are very convenient when people just want their misinformation confirmed. She is "alternatively" called "Aeris" as that is in the game, not because it is a correct alternative name. Terra is a correct alternative name. Bartz is one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
And Barret's name is "Barett", not "Bullet". "Baretto".
But if you go past the first paragraph, the wiki page gives the exact explanation you gave for the name change
Which name are you talking about right now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Also, I already differentiated between "legitimate katakana conversion" and "right katakana conversion". Of course you can convert a "su" to an "s" or a "th", a "ru" to an "r", a "ru", an "l", a "lu", but you have to take origin + intention into consideration.
Barret's name is Barret. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Quote:
The name Barret is a Japanese transliteration of the English word "bullet." Before Final Fantasy VII had an English localization Barret was referred to as "Bullet" in some pre-release magazine articles. His last name Wallace is of French origin and means "foreigner."
Do you really want me to show you the Japanese manual again? Magazine's mean nothing. I have a magazine that pronounces "Xehanort" as "Xeanorht" and "Galenth Dysley" and "Garenth Dysley".Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBBarret's name is Barret. xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Quote:
The name Barret is a Japanese transliteration of the English word "bullet." Before Final Fantasy VII had an English localization Barret was referred to as "Bullet" in some pre-release magazine articles. His last name Wallace is of French origin and means "foreigner."
Barett's entire name is French. "Barett (that bandana thing) Wallace".
This is legitimately hilarious...
:lol:
Aeristh :stare:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/upload/7...1455031973.jpg
Source: Final Fantasy VII Manual, pg. 6, published in 1997, owner: Square-Enix
I stopped calling her Aeris ever since I started getting into romhacking and realized that her in-game name before you get to rename her is "Aerith". Even way back then the translators already acknowledged and used that translation, apparently there was just some miscommunication or something. Forever confirming for me that Aeris was a name she was never meant to have.
Also, the Wiki is about as right as some guy who believes, Squal is Dead, is. They also say Aerith's name in Dissidia is Aerisu and misunderstand an essential part of DoC's story. Never let random people do stuff.
But is it Monique or Monica!?
Can't see the image you linked btw.
In all seriousness: Anyone who legitimately doesn't think she is both Aeris and Aerith is silly and takes this all way too seriously.
She is what she is called.
Oh how I despise that Squall is Dead 'theory' :mad2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
I am sorry, Bob. But that has nothing to do with being silly. It really is just you not accepting that the reality you thought to know does not exist, like everytime when people after years find out they misunderstood something. I do not even mean that personal but you are trying to make the other side look bad while you ignore things. She is legitimately called Aeris. I will never deny that and if you read my comments you know that I never did. But she is not correctly called Aeris. Aeris is as correct as Aelis, Airith, Aelith, et cetera is. Not at all. Legitimate? Yes.
Perhaps you should think of it as a nickname or a transliteration. It should be noted that when transliterating names, there isn't a "wrong" or "right". But I do think you need to be more relaxed about what other people call a character. xD
i actually think the whole point was " what do you prefer" :lol: i thought everybody knew that she is Aerith.
And that is exactly the problem here. There is a wrong and right. It is legitimate to call the Fuji "Fujiyama", but it is not right. It is "Fuji-san". Is it legitimately correct to read"yama"? Yes, as it is that same kanji. Is it actually correct? No. As the context wants it to be read as "san". Names are not really different and any other piece of information that is contextualized and has intention.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
When the creators gave them a name they already had something in mind, which is how the name came up and why they wrote "Aerith" in the manual. That has become a part of that intention in that moment. You may never leave out the full context or you cannot understand a message the full way. Which is why I differentiate so clearly between "legitimate" and "correct". When the guy wrote "Aeris" he used all right ways of converting the katakana, but he did miss the intention as he was missing information. And thus it was lost.
I am not taking this any more serious than people who want to say that I am wrong. I can just back it up with info as I of course want to show people why it is the way I say. People often get the impression I want them to believe what I say because I say it, but I am not taking those things out of nowhere. It is a conclusion based on everything, interviews, games, books, et cetera.
It is a fact that a lot of stuff is just mistranslated. You forget that I have multiple versions of games and understand them. I do not know why that is hard to believe. It is very easy to misunderstand things and then bring a wrong version to people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
EDIT: Thank you, Shauna or Psychotic.
I will fight anyone who challenges me calling her Aeris.
Damn straight. They were called The Fugees and I believe a much stronger unit without Lauren Hill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Every time I have played the US release of VII (which is the only version I've played), Aeris has been the default name. So her name is Aeris to me since I never changed it from the default. Every time I've played Kingdom Hearts or Crisis Core, Aerith has been her name. So her name is also Aerith. It depends to me on what game I'm playing.
I really don't care, but she can still have both names depending on the context. Her name can be Sarah or BoB or Sephiroth if you really want. All the main characters you can name can be Aeris if you want. They gave you the option in the first game so no name is really right. Aeris is just as right as Aerith despite it being translation issue. Her name will be whatever you name her or whatever the default name was in the region you played the game.
Also Squall is Dead is a valid interpretation and reading of that game. I don't subscribe to that interpretation myself, but author intent really doesn't matter too much when it comes to literary theory and analysis which is what you really start delving into with stuff like that. It really doesn't have much comparison at all to the discussion at hand unless you are going to start discussing about how the name Aerith is important to your interpretation of VII's story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty_ffgamer
You basically ignore everything then to make your view fit. Good for you if that is what you want. That's not how things work though. The truth is not "there is no truth".
Read my lips (i mean my signature)
I am paying complete attention to what is presented to me when I turn on my copy of the game, which is a name select screen with aeris as the default.
Edit: and if you are referencing my view on squall is dead, I was just looking at it from a more academic literary standpoint. There really is no definitive truth to interpreting a story, just valid interpretations (if those interpretations can be backed up with what is presented in the text). It really doesn't apply to this discussion, but I wasn't sure which part of my post you were referencing, Sephiroth.
But I'm out of this discussion for now because I really don't care that much about the name. It being Aeris or Aerith changes nothing about the character or story for me. Aeris in the original US release of VII will always be Aeris to me just because that's what it's always been when I've played. I'm sure it will be Aerith to me in the remake as Im surewe wont be able to change their names there and they've been consistent with keeping it as Aerith for the compilation stuff.
I don't really care from an accuracy standpoint, Aerith sounds way less pretentious and...divine? Aerie always struck me as awkward from a phonetic standpoint and didn't really suit the character.
Judging by how Katakana is written and how it transliterates into English, I've always gone with Aerith.
In my head it ends with 'S'. But when typing I do the 'th'. I don't really care either way.
Guys, guys! I apparently have secret UNRELEASED manuals and pictures for FFVII! This stuff must be worth a fortune!Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
http://i.imgur.com/mvlpBn0.jpg
....Well played. :grump:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin HeartillyThat's not how sloppy seconds work :colbert:Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerith's KnightAnd Rinoa Heartilly will always be Seifer's sloppy seconds to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin Heartilly
It's nice that the polls keep track of the names. Makes it easier to make my enemy list. :shifty:
and also:
AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS AERIS
.......94 posts on the subject of Aerith vs Aeris......94........
Aeris.
95.
EoFF war II
the war that split the site. came just after the first war.
is. soup. a. drink? (or Værns one, is Cereal a salad)
96.
Pop vs Coke vs Soda was always a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
its all just Juice to me :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by escobertPop vs Coke vs Soda was always a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
To be fair, I think about 30 of them are SephirosQuote:
Originally Posted by Midgar Mist
It's Aeris for me. It's easier to pronounce and that's the version of the game I played.
Really? 100 posts isn't that much
Also, glad to see more people chose the correct answer
I think everyone knows the correct answer is Aerith. She will just always be Aeris to me, dammit!
Your sentimentalism is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Your existence is futile and finite.
:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
:monster:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Wow yeah. I thought this was funny, but it really reminds me of the weirdly heated arguments people had over whether they stood up to wipe their butts, or stayed seated to wipe after a pooQuote:
Originally Posted by escobertPop vs Coke vs Soda was always a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
Or the OTHER weirdly heated ones guys had about whether they unzipped their fly and pulled their junk through their boxers to urinate, or undid their belts and pulled their pants out and forward
(Real EoEO arguments. Very sad)
Also I think it would be funny if in the remake they dubbed the dialog twice and gave a section to choose a reference where she's like "Hi, my name is:" and a dialog pops up and you can choose between the two, so that heathens can choose whatever they like, and the internet can rage and rejoice together and watch the world burn
You forgot about the argument of peeing in a shower.Quote:
Originally Posted by VykWow yeah. I thought this was funny, but it really reminds me of the weirdly heated arguments people had over whether they stood up to wipe their butts, or stayed seated to wipe after a pooQuote:
Originally Posted by escobertPop vs Coke vs Soda was always a good one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
Or the OTHER weirdly heated ones guys had about whether they unzipped their fly and pulled their junk through their boxers to urinate, or undid their belts and pulled their pants out and forward
(Real EoEO arguments. Very sad)
Also I think it would be funny if in the remake they dubbed the dialog twice and gave a section to choose a reference where she's like "Hi, my name is:" and a dialog pops up and you can choose between the two, so that heathens can choose whatever they like, and the internet can rage and rejoice together and watch the world burn
Anyways I was first told her name was aeris. It was how she was born and it was how she died. I didn't even think Aerith was an actual thing until KH.
If Square wanted her to be "Aerith", why didn't they change her name when they updated the rest of the translation?
When FFVII was released on PC, it featured a redone translation that removed all the typos and minor mistakes of the original (including "off course" and "this guy are sick"), corrected things like the Xenogears Easter egg, and...left her name "Aeris".
They had plenty of further opportunities to update both the PlayStation and PC versions over the years, as both have had numerous rereleases, including Greatest Hits versions and Steam/PSN releases.
Her name has always stayed "Aeris". Even when they redid the translation, her name was still "Aeris".
It doesn't matter how much they put "Aerith" now. Like adding Genesis, it's just Square trying to ruin what was once great. You can tell us he was in the Shinra Mansion the whole time. But we played the game. And we know what really happened. Just a terrible retcon attempting to ruin the story. Just like "Aerith".
How is it bad? it's not like with Genesis, where the thing is just legitimately bad fanfic stuff. Here it's just a name that you think sounds worse because you were exposed to the wrong one first. You think it sounds like you have a lisp only because you were used to an s there that was not supposed to be there. And really, assuming SE has this evil intention of ruining everyone's childhood memories - why would they do that? Do you seriously think they just want to trout all over the fanbase?
And please, don't start on the whole "retranslation" business. I'm a translator who has worked in game translation as well, so trust me, that was nothing of the sort. They changed nothing but typos. Had they wanted to "update" the game, fire 2 would become fira, and so forth. They changed no proper names, only the spelling and grammar. So I'm sorry, but your argument is completely moot.
Aerith was there from the beginning. As several people have mentioned, it's even in the game's code.
Not to forget they did also not fix mistranslations of enemy names and moves. So at this point this is just being stubborn. And those who say "we all know what happened" but deny Genesis flat out do not know and is as wrong as me not having written this post.
And as Fynn said, Fix != Retcon.
I like how this keeps winding down, and then someone gives the whole argument another kickstart.
Welcome to the Internet :p
More like Trollnet. I cannot believe that I even answered again.
If Square US and Europe decide to bring in a version with VAs "Aeris", then they have officially decided to give her that as an actual Western name - and the chance for that happening in the remake is very low.
I think Lilith is a pretty name. It ends with a "th" without sounding like s lisp. If the name existed, Lilis would also be pretty I suppose. I have gotten over hearing a lisp in my head when I think about the name Aerith. It can happen. Though I do prefer Aeris in a straight on comparison without any of the context and reasons behind Aerith being what it is. It reminds me, and reminded me the of Teiris from Dragon Force. A game I spent dozens of hours with. And even now if I think about the possibility of the name Teirith, I don't think its a horrible lispy derivative
I know. I can't believe it either. I mean, you completely ignore the post which proves a major assertion you made to be 100% a lie, then come back to respond to one which is more subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
So now we know what YOUR standards for an "official" name are. Apparently, you only accept things as canon which have voice acting. So I guess you're still waiting to PLAY Final Fantasy VII.Quote:
If Square US and Europe decide to bring in a version with VAs "Aeris", then they have officially decided to give her that as an actual Western name - and the chance for that happening in the remake is very low.
It's such a shame that you're missing out on so many great games because of that. I mean, most people will argue that Chrono Trigger or FFVI are superior to FFVII, and yet neither of those have any voice acted dialogue at all. So I guess nothing about them is "canon" to you.
Games existed before voice acting. I'm not about to dismiss the original game just because the original game content (which, even without voice acting, made it the largest game ever at the time of release) didn't have a "voice acting" CD.
The original game used Aeris. That's her name. It's been her name for almost twenty years. And that is all that matters. Her name in the Kingdom Hearts universe? Aerith, sure. But then, in that universe, Cloud is a emo vampire wrapped with bandages, Sephiroth is a figment of his imagination, and Cid is a family-friendly hillbilly. None of which are canon to FFVII.
You may prefer Aeris, by all means. No one can deny that right for you. But ultimately, and I quote myself, for kicks :monster:
The intent has always been Aerith, so all subsequent entries recitify that. Sure, a lot of people are nostalgically biased to Aeris and that's fine, but the story, as conceived by the people at SE, has always involved a girl name Aerith whose name got mistranslated, and they are now trying to make their vision clearer, since they have that opportunity. Aeris has been repelled from canon at this point, with Aerith being the one true Aerith, always (as Karifean and Sephiroth noted, it's even in the code of the game that uses Aeris).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Really I believe you can name the characters in FFVII whatever you want to uh
Aeris is now Rebecca to me.
I think there was one playthrough somewhere on the internet where someone named all the characters Sephiroth. Things got confusing fast
Yeah they were confusing enough with just one Sephiroth
And Square has, again, been pushing a version of the game and its story which simply didn't exist. Cissnei is not a character in FFVII. Neither is Angeal, nor Genesis, nor Weis, nor any of the other changes that they have tried to inject into the canon with every "subsequent entry". All their "subsequent entries" have done is make changes to the original. The quality or intent of this changes is irrelevant. The original its still it's own thing, and they STILL haven't even attempted to update it. Go buy it off Steam, RIGHT NOW, and it has Aeris. In fact, the new Achievements which they added into the game when the REBUILT it for Steam, entirely new content which they could have used WHATEVER they wanted for it... Call her Aeris.Quote:
Originally Posted by FynnYou may prefer Aeris, by all means. No one can deny that right for you. But ultimately, and I quote myself, for kicks :monster:
The intent has always been Aerith, so all subsequent entries recitify that. Sure, a lot of people are nostalgically biased to Aeris and that's fine, but the story, as conceived by the people at SE, has always involved a girl name Aerith whose name got mistranslated, and they are now trying to make their vision clearer, since they have that opportunity. Aeris has been repelled from canon at this point, with Aerith being the one true Aerith, always (as Karifean and Sephiroth noted, it's even in the code of the game that uses Aeris).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
The game's code uses Aerith. That's great. The game's code also uses twelve billion ones and zeros, so I guess you're going to tell me that it's a story about travelling numbers trying to survive in a bleak and hostile universe. Game code is irrelevant to this discussion. The game code also includes unused rooms, backgrounds, items, and images. None of them are argued to be canon.
Sephiroth killed Sephiroth as Sephiroth, Sephiroth and Sephiroth watched.
Also, when my friend got to this scene (I was visiting him at the time), he got this glitch:
Well, whether we like it or not, all those are now canon, sadly. And so is Aerith's name. So like I said, you might prefer Aeris, but it's not her name. Not anymore, and it's arguable if it ever was.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeAnd Square has, again, been pushing a version of the game and its story which simply didn't exist. Cissnei is not a character in FFVII. Neither is Angeal, nor Genesis, nor Weis, nor any of the other changes that they have tried to inject into the canon with every "subsequent entry". All their "subsequent entries" have done is make changes to the original. The quality or intent of this changes is irrelevant. The original its still it's own thing, and they STILL haven't even attempted to update it. Go buy it off Steam, RIGHT NOW, and it has Aeris. In fact, the new Achievements which they added into the game when the REBUILT it for Steam, entirely new content which they could have used WHATEVER they wanted for it... Call her Aeris.Quote:
Originally Posted by FynnYou may prefer Aeris, by all means. No one can deny that right for you. But ultimately, and I quote myself, for kicks :monster:
The intent has always been Aerith, so all subsequent entries recitify that. Sure, a lot of people are nostalgically biased to Aeris and that's fine, but the story, as conceived by the people at SE, has always involved a girl name Aerith whose name got mistranslated, and they are now trying to make their vision clearer, since they have that opportunity. Aeris has been repelled from canon at this point, with Aerith being the one true Aerith, always (as Karifean and Sephiroth noted, it's even in the code of the game that uses Aeris).Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
The game's code uses Aerith. That's great. The game's code also uses twelve billion ones and zeros, so I guess you're going to tell me that it's a story about travelling numbers trying to survive in a bleak and hostile universe. Game code is irrelevant to this discussion. The game code also includes unused rooms, backgrounds, items, and images. None of them are argued to be canon.
I always renamed Aeris as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin
But don't let Sephiroth hear that, or he'll argue "oh, but that's impossible because voice acting".
I dunno, I never really liked Rebecca anyway, so I'm not too stingy on her name
Michael Keaton was fantastic as Red XIII in this
Of course it's arguable. We're arguing about it, aren't we? But is there anything that isn't arguable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fynn
Aerith is canon for the new versions, and it's one more reason why the remake isn't going to be as good as the original.:lol: But, for that original, Aeris is still the official name. Included in every manual, and used by the entire game and all of it's supplemental material. Even supplemental material that didn't exist for ten years after Square started producing new sequels with new content and their new name.
tl;dr: this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
That's rich, coming from someone willing to spend fifty pages on debating whether soup is a food or a drink :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBtl;dr: this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
You try to ignore them. But it never works, does it? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBtl;dr: this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Also, if this thread is too long for people to read, those people won't have gotten far enough into FFVII to meet Aeris anyway. :D
Fixed that for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBtl;dr: this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Aaaah. Much better :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Skyblade
Final Fantasy VII was released on Steam in 2013, with new, additional material that still used the name "Aeris". So how exactly was that "only in the late '90s"?Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothFixed that for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBtl;dr: this threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoB
Nailed it. :aimsun:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Go home, you're drunk. But yeah, you are right. She has always been called and intended Aerith (mother's belly: Square's mind as Earisu standing for Aerith). Thank you for confirming this. Aeris is about as right as "It's all in there, read it sorgfältig durch und unterzeichne ihn dann, ja?" in the German version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loony BoBNailed it. :aimsun:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
What does it matter, she's just the slum drunk anyways.
A slummer by any other name would smell as drunk
Friggin Rebecca always causing problems for everyone
i swear she is called Jason :roll2
I think I actually called her SlumDrunk in one of my last play throughs. I've also called her Dead. It really doesn't matter what is right but its always fun to argue I guess since there is no definitive right answer. A correct translation, sure. But yeah.
The incorrect translation is a part of the charm to me for some of these games anyways (not that this applies to the Aeris/Aerith debate anyways.) This guy are sick. Make sure you look for something called secret. Etc etc.
I called her Bumface. I don't think SlumDrunk would have fit, but I could be wrong.
yep it would. just. ff7 has 9 character limit. and ff9 has 7. my way of remembering
And now I will never forget these details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
YOU NO CAN STEAL RECIPE :mad2: :quina:Quote:
Originally Posted by SkybladeAnd now I will never forget these details.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galuf
This is kind of like arguing over color or colour. Different people spell different. I'm pretty sure it all plays out the same no matter what you call her. ;)
Colour and color are both officially right spellings. Aeris is not. Not appropriate. In terms of preference? Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by sora_lion_heart
In the case of Aeris we have the name included in the game itself, in the manuals, in every piece of promotional work done for the game, and more, including officially licensed guides and products.Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothColour and color are both officially right spellings. Aeris is not. Not appropriate. In terms of preference? Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by sora_lion_heart
Or we have the name that has not been included as a final text in any release or rerelease of the game EVER. She's Aeris in the West, and エアリス in Japan. She is "Aerith" only temporarily, and never revealed to the player as such, so declaring that as her true name is less canonically accurate than declaring Cloud's true name to be "Ex-SOLDIER".
You obviously have no idea about canonicity and are not willing to know more about it and you would understand then that it is axiomatic that owners (intellectually/legally) define canonicity of fiction. She is intended as Aerith, she is called Aerith, her name is in the non-mistranslated code as Aerith, the official Desktopbackground of the PC version of 98 is called Aerith, it has been revealed she is Aerith. She is Aerith. You are just ignoring facts for bias. I totally agree that you guys can call her what you want. That is not the problem of your posts though.
You know when people are making up rules about canonicity like the everyday DBZ fan to just make it fit their view of reality and ignore the owner so they do not need to admit they are wrong and even think "I do not like new stuff therefore it is trout/not canonical" is appropriate, the dicussion has no sense being continued. I hate to say something like that but there is a point, where it is just no use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Quote:
canon
Popularity: Top 20% of words
1
a : a regulation or dogma decreed by a church council
b : a provision of canon law
2
[Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin, from Latin, model]
: the most solemn and unvarying part of the Mass including the consecration of the bread and wine
3
[Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard]
a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture
b : the authentic works of a writer
c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works
4
a : an accepted principle or rule
b : a criterion or standard of judgment
c : a body of principles, rules, standards, or norms
5
[Late Greek kanōn, from Greek, model]
: a contrapuntal musical composition in which each successively entering voice presents the initial theme usually transformed in a strictly consistent way
2canon
noun can·on
Definition of canon
1
: a clergyman belonging to the chapter or the staff of a cathedral or collegiate church
canonplay
noun can·on \ˈka-nən\
Definition of canon
1
: a rule or law of a church
2
: an accepted rule
Huh. I don't see that in ANY definition of the word ANYWHERE.
Let's try something else...
Ooh, here's a good one: Literary Canon.
So, speaking from the sense of canonical literature, canon is owned by whomever collects the canon material, based on importance and relevance of the subject matter.Quote:
More often than not, it is those works that are considered contextually relevant that gain entry into the canon. This means that the literary work is relevant to ongoing trends or movements in thought and art, or address historical or contemporary events, etc.
Often, the popularity of a literary work is based not only on the quality, but the relevance of its subject matter to historical, social, and artistic context. A popular or respected literary work usually deals with what people are most interested in, and this interest weighs in on whether or not the work is canonized.
Therefore, when I say that the only canon name for Aeris is Aeris, I am 100% correct. As is the statement that the only game that matters for determining the canon of Final Fantasy VII is, in fact, Final Fantasy VII, as that is the work which is included in this canonical gathering.
I agree with Skyblade. Aeris all the way.
Also, screw Genesis and that Compilation BS. Square sure loves crapping on FFVII's legacy.
Whatever, in the game I played it was Aerith.
Aeris sounds nicer, Aerith looks nicer. Aeris was a mistranslation, so I'll stick with Aerith.
Here's an argument I whipped up fairly recently:
----------------------------------------------
Alright, you jokers, strap yourselves in:
When whoever-the-smurf was picking a name, he took the written English word Earth and split it up into four pieces: E-A-R-TH. He then assigned a katakana syllable to each segment separately by rough phonetic similarity: エ-ア-リ-ス, or E-a-ri-su. (The reason for the 'I' being introduced into the name was an arbitrary choice between the symbols for ra, re, ri, ro, and ru; a simple "-R" sound was not an option. And of course, ス is what one uses when transliterating TH.) This exercise produced a multi-syllable name which sounded quite different from its inspiration, and intentionally so. Keep in mind, the creator could have easily used the typical phonetic transcription approach (e.g. Cloud => Kuraudo) to arrive at アース (Aasu) as the best approximation for Earth.
So the real significance of the "Earth" origin is that a transliteration trick was performed on the dissected written word in order to select syllables; it was never the goal to precisely replicate the sound of the English word. The best translation, then, will not undo this unique syllable-play; rather, it will capture the pronunciation of the name - which at its core is a Japanese construction - into an accurate Romanized representation. The part no one disputes, エアリ (e-ah-ri), becomes "Aeri". Why? Because that's the English spelling which best replicates how エアリ sounds to Western ears - distinctly NOT a relapse into the original pronunciation of EAR in Earth. Same goes for the final sound ス (su), which is represented best to Western ears by an S.
Aeris.
Someone (I don't care who) later lost their trout over the fact that both S and TH can be valid mappings for ス. They assumed that the English pronunciation of "Earth" was intended to be faithfully preserved, at least in part, and thus concluded that Aeris was a mistake. After all, "Japanese has no TH sound, so 'su' is obviously the creator's best attempt at a phonetic transcription." ...Right?
But Japanese also has no lone "-R" sound, so by the same logic, リ (ri) is just the creator's best attempt at reproducing the R in Earth, with '-i' appearing as an unfortunate side-effect. Even エア (e-ah) could be playing a role in mimicking the emphasized "-R" sound while introducing more undesirable artifacts.
The point is this: The line of reasoning which leads to choosing 'TH' also leads, in the name of phonetic faithfulness, to destroying the syllable-play essential to the original name's construction, until eventually we are forced to translate the name as "Earth" (or optimistically, "Aerth"). Indeed, not only does Aerith have less basis than Aeris, but it even has less basis than the word Earth itself if we are to adopt a consistent approach.
Aeris. Seal it and ship it. Even with the late-night typos and grammar slips, FF7 was translated very well considering the volume of text therein. Do you really think they'd blow the main heroine's name so easily? They also translated ス to TH when it was appropriate to do so (e.g. Sephiroth, from an actual phonetic transcription), and they obviously had the capacity to make a decision between the two. Unlike the English-to-Japanese transcribed names (e.g. Kuraudo) which suffered from language incompatibilities, エアリス was entirely borne from them. The translation "Aeris" reflects this properly.
It seems these days Square Enix listens to what fans have to say. We have just a couple of years to convince their Western localization team to unsmurf Aeris's name for good.
TL;DR
>エアリス (Earisu) is a *thoroughly* bastardized transliteration of Earth
>Translating it back with -TH chips away at this key characteristic of the name, so
>"Aeris" is actually the most authentic translation.
>Now that we are educated on the matter, it's time to mosey.
You basically ignore how communication psychology works.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Successful communication is only then existant when the communication partner understands the intention and follows exactly what was intended.
Square wrote her as Earisu with the intention of the name being Aerith. It is is Aerith. The manual says it. The game says it. The files of several official pictures for the pc version says it. Therefore what follows what Square wanted is the most authentic translation. I will point it out one more time.
"Hi, can you tell me what time it is?"
"Yes."
"..."
____
"Yes." <- LEGITIMATE but WRONG ANSWER (So how is it right? In the context of legitimacy)
It does not follow the intention of my question, therefore is a disturbance of communication.
Square had the intention of her being Aerith all the time. And that's it. You cannot even say "he chose ri because of this and that", because Aerith is an allusion of Earth, not directly meant to be Earth. And no, "ri" is not by the same logic the best attempt to reproduce an "r" because in most cases for that they take "ru". By your logic, when Sephiroth is right, they would have to automatically and without a doubt write him as "Sefirotto" because Americans do not use the authentic Hebrew pronounciation either, but no, he was written as "Sefirosu" because the intention made him the English pronounced Sephiroth. And I have pointed it out more than once - Japanese authors also do not just think with a mindset that uses Japanese only. Tetsuya Nomura had to name his Organization XIII with the Western names in mind for his little name game to work.
It is really interesting how someone wants to argue that when someone decides to give a name to someone that person's intention is worth nothing when it is the essence of things.
How right is Aeris?
Level of being Correct:
Correct in the Context of Legitimate Translation
As correct as: Aelis, Airith, Aelith, et cetera
When can it be intentionally correct?
When the owners change their intention and say "it is correct (as well)", as the context of intention changes.
How right is Aerith?
Level of being Correct:
Correct in the Context of Legitimate Translation and Intention of the Namegivers
What people do not want to accept, is that Aerith always existed and was not a retcon as no true state was rewritten but just a mistake corrected. I can only mention it again: When I started FFVII in the 90s my brother, who never did that much with FF as I did, already said "call her Aerith, that's how she is called, Aeris was a mistranslation", so this whole mistranslation thing was already that popular on the internet back then and it was important to be pointed out. And that's obvious. If I want to say something and someone does not understand what I said I also say "sorry, that was meant differently".
And once more to clarify things:
Correct: Tidus (Tida who was meant and written as Tidus all the time), Cloud (Kuraudo who was meant and written as Cloud all the time), Sephiroth (Sefirosu who was meant and written as Sephiroth all the time), et cetera ...
Purposely changed: Tina -> Terra, Butz -> Bartz, Balflear -> Balthier, Eclair -> Claire, Cidney -> Cindy, Attacker -> Command, Blaster -> Ravager, Enhancer -> Synergist, Jammer -> Saboteur, Healer -> Medic, Defender -> Sentinel, et cetera ...
Mistranslated: Aerith, Reina, Misunderstanding Rebirth as Reverse, et cetera ...
If legitimacy was everything necessary and the context of intention was meaningless then communication would be totally misleading.
This is precisely what, according to my post, "Aerith" fails to accomplish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Not my manual, that's for sure...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Edit: Oh, you're talking about the Japanese manual. Honestly, they're lucky Barret didn't come out as Ballett in that thing. Guess I'll go read the rest of the thread...
(Edited) The game's innards? It's written a half dozen different ways in there...like the debug room. I'm pretty sure the creative heads were not the ones doing most of the coding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
This kind of stuff was also all over the place back in the day, perhaps sparking the early Internet buzz you mentioned. But I'll bet that, for every person who concluded at that time that it was mistranslated, there was another who stood ground with the official release...because at the end of the day, Square was silent on the matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
The guy didn't have a TH, so he used SU. He didn't have an -R, so he used R* and picked his favorite variant. So if we consider mapping SU back to TH, then we need to consider mapping RI to R.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Unless I misunderstand you, my post states why Sephiroth and Cloud are totally different cases - or different "intentions" - from Earisu: They were derived directly from real English words (or English transliterations of Hebrew). Earisu, on the other hand, was primarily a Japanese construction loosely inspired by the letters that make up the word "Earth". There's a difference. And it was almost certainly not written with any final Romanization already in mind:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Maybe we should go with his early Romanization then, "Earith". Do we even know who came up with the name in the first place? (Nomura wasn't even the first one to draw concepts for Earisu.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
We don't buy your assertion because not only is there a lack of satisfactory evidence for it, there is evidence for the contrary as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Where was the statement from Square on this matter in 1998? Because if they cared as much as you said, and if "Aeris" was a problem, then they could have ended it right there. Heck, they had several chances, demo releases and re-releases, to get it right. This all looks like a case of someone changing their mind. Or someone else deciding for himself later on that a mistake had been made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
I really don't think this whole thing is as cut-and-dry as you've made it out to be, and while I usually don't like responding to posts point by point, I hope this post shows why my camp has ongoing skepticism about the change.
Edit #3: I actually just finished reading the rest of this thread, and it is hilarious. I absolutely regret posting a serious response.
Sorry, I was not aware you were one of the people ignoring author intention and other facts like the rest of the post showed. And you are contradicting yourself with your "convert back and forth" as the allusion to Earth is reflected the most appropriate with "su" as "th" and not "s", as a matter of fact it would hardly be recognizable as an allusion to Earth with this "s" and instead just be mistaken as the Latin word for Air, which people do all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Intentionally provoking and non-sensical. Barett is written as Barett exactly as the head gear thing is written and it has nothing to do with "them being lucky".Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
That was no conclusion out of nothing, it came from the mere facts of Square themselves, included stuff like manuals and other official things that you are so eager to ignore.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Not at all as it is a mere fact that most of the time for a single r "ru" is used as the "u" is often ignored, other than the "i" in "ri". By your logic "s" is always the most authentic one, totally ignoring the rest that is needed for understanding the message of the one who has put thought into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Which is wrong many creators think of Western versions exactly when they make up the stuff. Heck, even nowadays you can see the names of areas and whatever else exists in games in Japanese and then in English, like wirth FFXIII for example which firsts writes "Arukakiruti" and then not "Archacylte" but "Archylte", which already shows they have certain names in mind. And your "Cloud is not the same as Aerith" thing is perfect for my first quote: It is not. Indeed. But it reflects what was intended. If you really only want to go for writing alone, then okay, you are wrong at calling him Sephiroth with an English "th" because then it is either Sephiroth with a hard "t" or Sephiros.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
But that is not how things work, He was intended as Sephiroth. With English pronounciation. Just as Cait Sith was intended as the (Irish?) creature of Legend pronounced as "Cat Shee" and not like some guy from Star Wars. And you cannot just say "but those are existing words so we know xy" because that is incomplete thinking. Have you ever thought that someone adds something to that? Like "I am gonna use that name but in my version it is supposed to have that meaning and that pronounciation". Like I had a girl which hated it when people called her "Ee-lay-na" and said "NO, my name is pronounced Eh-leh-na". She has the right to decide that. And Square has the right to take "Earth", make a new word out of it and decides how it is pronounced and written. We can take the Origins of the word to explain something to people. But that is not in all cases, when it comes to different words, the entirety needed for the explanation.
First of all, her early Romanization is Aerith, as shown in the original manual and everything. Second, it should be really easy to understand that not every idea that someone initially has it set in stone. That means, even if they have an idea, if they later decide to take a different approach that is also okay (everything else would mean that it is not allowed to have the idea that Aerith dies because it was not meant first and that Aerith and Sephiroth had to be lovers or siblings, et cetera). That is how things are created. And as their mindset was and is Aerith, it is Aerith.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
I am not talking about Nomura-san as the namegiver but to show you how important the context (in this case the intention) of the one is, who in every individual case intends aspect x. Hell, if I would go fór Tetsuya Nomura-san for this example as a namegiver it would not work because he wrote "Sefiros" on his artwork, which is exactly the point. Sephiroth's name is not Sefiros either. A person intended him to have a certain name. And exactly he gave him that certain name. Same goes for Aerith. And, as I have used Nomura-san, in his case, the Organisation XIII.
There is no lack of it, you are just the kind of person that stands on a road with a car driving towards him and say "there is no car". I know people like you for over 10 years now. It has nothing to do with "lack of satisfactory evidence", it is just not wanting to admit something at any cost. But it will not change the fact that the car will hit you if you do not accept it or at least move away. The manuals, the code, the Kaitai Shinsho, the fact that they corrected it later, everything proves the intention. If anything, you lack the evidence of the opposite which is no wonder, because you cannot have evidence against the intention of a creator. People already bring out stuff to show and correct and you still say "no, they didn't" or treat it as worthless. This results in you not being satisfied with anything and just saying "oh yes, she was never intended as Aerith even though everything shows she was and then they changed it to Aerith for no reason even though she was never intended and still is not intended as Aerith". I am sorry but for someone who wants "satisfactory evidence" your posts show a lot of the signs I see from everyone else I have every argued on the internet. And that is not "justified doubt because of facts".Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Why would Square go out and have a hold a speech about every mistranslation that ever exists? They had their official stuff that showed it, the Kaitai Shinsho was released with the explanation of Aerith, they released Kingdom Hearts after a while. They provided us with enough information.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
There is a significant difference between your "camp" being biased and ignoring everything just out of personal preference and justified doubt, especially when it is a mere fact that even if it would have been a retcon and not a correction (which it is) they have all the right in the world to decide what is true about their property. A post like you wrote it will not change that. I have seen enough of those posts from many people concerning many different topics and just saying "I like Aeris more" would save way more time instead of covering your eyes and ears and say "n, no, that's npt how it is, I cannot see the tree that is actually out there". Mistranslations exist. That is just how it is. They happen all the time and everywhere. People just do not like to say "I like the (in the important context) wrong one" they want to say "but I like this so it has to be the right one in the important context instead of just being right when it comes to "legitimacy"". And I will point it out once more: She will only be Aeris when Square allows her to be Aeris and that is then because it is their mindset and not ours. Same goes for "Super Ninja Battle Star" or every other name.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
If you so freely say what you think by calling it hilarous, writing posts which partially are supposed to provoke and ignore everything, then I have no problem doing the same as well: Square owns the characters Aerith and the brand Final Fantasy. They say she is Aerith. She is Aerith.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
(I might be dumb, but I didn't notice the allusion even when the games used "Aerith." "Earith" does the trick, though.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
Okay, this actually gets at the crux of our arguments, so I'll try to clear it up once, right here, the best I can.
Your stance, as I have gathered:
The definitive name is and always was Aerith, a Latin construction alluding to the English word "earth", which was then translated to Japanese as エアリス.
If you are right, then it obviously follows that the author's intention for the name is Aerith, and エアリス should be be translated back to English as such.
My stance:
The definitive name is and always was エアリス, a Japanese construction loosely inspired by the English word "earth." No particular Romanization was intended.
If I am right, then the author's intention for the name would be the Japanese name itself, and as such, the most authentic translation would result in a sound that is as similar to エアリス as possible.
You listed some evidence for why you believe "Aerith" was always intended by the author, and here is a summary of my responses:
The original Japanese manual is unreliable, as it contains other relevant errors, and it may not have even been taken seriously by the game's own devs (see next point below).Quote:
The manuals,
Up until the final release of the game, various devs who touched the game's code and text used the names Aerith, Earith, and at some point, Aeris. If anything, the lack of conformity suggests that there was no standard Romanization conceived early on. I would speculate, however, that most were aware of the "earth allusion" since TH was used most often at that point. Also, these variants popped up in the debug room during the translation process, after the original game's manual was made, which implies that the manual was not treated as a definitive statement on the matter. (They don't call it 'Engrish' for nothin'!)Quote:
the code,
Is there anything in this besides the interview that mentions that エアリス was made as an "allusion to earth"? Because that is just as compatible with my position as it is with yours. It does not imply that the Romanization came first or simultaneously.Quote:
the Kaitai Shinsho,
Square isn't a hivemind. Someone changed the localization later, but we don't know that it was at the behest of the same person who originally came up with the name. Since we don't know who the Author was, we don't know if he even cares about the name's localization or has even been involved in FF since the change. What about all of the times the name didn't change, in the international version and re-releases? In FF Tactics? Did the Author somehow fall asleep just in time for the translation in 1997 and not wake up for five years?Quote:
the fact that they corrected it later
I'm not even sure that the current lead devs are more than vaguely aware of the localization change. I might be ill-informed, but as far as I know this could easily be an adjacent localization department acting independently.
Yes, some Japanese writers come up with Romanizations simultaneously. But we don't even know who came up with エアリス, so how are we to know he was that type of person? For example, if it was Sakaguchi who did it, I would bet on the contrary, as he hardly cared at all about Western localization at that time.Quote:
many creators think of Western versions exactly when they make up the stuff.
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So here's what I think may have happened: Author makes Japanese name. (The hypothesis on how this was done is given in my original post.) Devs and coders Romanize it when necessary as they build FF7. They know the name was inspired by "earth", so they typically use Earith or Aerith. Some even might think the name will end up transliterating to Aerith, but there isn't a standard, and localization really isn't a concern at that point. Aerith ends up on the manual of the Japanese game.
Time for localization. It's messy early on, because it's basically being done in-house. We get the debug room with Earith and Aerith still the most common variants. We see things like Cefiros, Ketcy, and Ballet. But ultimately, they clean everything up and get Sephiroth right...along with Cait Sith, Barret, and a million other things. They obviously care; they're not lackadaisical. Similar deal with エアリス. "Aerith" would be the most obvious choice in the world - It's on the Japanese manual, it's in the code, it was inspired by the word "earth", and they know that you have to be careful with S/TH - but in the end they decide on Aeris. Could be a judgement call, could be the result of consulting the Author about the differences in English pronunciation. But it is decided, after consideration, that while the "earth" thing is neat, at the end of the day the name - a totally invented word - should sound like it does in its original form. English speakers would probably one day figure out its inspiration anyway.
Fast forward, years later, and roles within the company have changed. Perhaps different people now determine what ends up in the localized versions of new games. These people really care about the "earth" thing, to the point that they come to the conclusion that "Aeris" was a mistake. They begin putting "Aerith" on all new products.
It's not that far-fetched, and it's not nearly disproved by the evidence presented in your post.
On the other hand, what I find hard to believe is that the localization team would decide against Aerith, which would have been by far the easiest choice, without having a legitimate reason for doing so.
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The rest of this post are minor responses:
Don't they only drop the "-u" sound when the syllable comes at the end of the word? Also, the author wouldn't necessarily follow convention if it meant a better-sounding name; it was still a made-up word, after all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth
You may be indicating here that you're aware of the Nomura document that I was referring to, since you mention the validity of changing one's mind mid-development (which I absolutely agree with). And I think we agree that he was probably not the one to come up with the name, but in case anyone hasn't seen it:Quote:
Originally Posted by SephirothFirst of all, her early Romanization is Aerith, as shown in the original manual and everything. Second, it should be really easy to understand that not every idea that someone initially has it set in stone. That means, even if they have an idea, if they later decide to take a different approach that is also okay (everything else would mean that it is not allowed to have the idea that Aerith dies because it was not meant first and that Aerith and Sephiroth had to be lovers or siblings, et cetera). That is how things are created. And as their mindset was and is Aerith, it is Aerith.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentenigma
Attachment 67500
The question becomes: If there had been an established intended Romanization originally, then why was one of the top creative heads not even aware of it at the time?
Alternatively, if it had been initially intended as "Earith", but then the Author changed his mind to "Aerith", then why did the Japanese not adjust along with it?
Han shot first.Quote:
it is a mere fact that even if it would have been a retcon and not a correction (which it is) they have all the right in the world to decide what is true about their property.
Attachment 67499Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin
Oops. Seems I evened up the vote again. I am all for Aeris being erased and Aerith taking over.
I'm from America, played the North American PS1 version of the game, so I say Aeris and choose that.
BUT, I've been on enough FF message boards in the last 13 years to notice that I catch myself calling her Aerith nowadays as a habit because so many gamers go by that name of hers world-wide. So as much as I hate to admit, I catch myself calling her by the name opposite I believe more times than not.
It don't matter what Aeris' name is, she's dead.