Editorial: Lightning Returns to Sexy: Why SE Risks Destroying Lightning's Strengths

Originally Posted by Freya

As of 2012, in a study by the ESA, 47% of gamers are now women. While many of these women are playing social games or puzzle games, they are actually playing them. Now if the industry would like to get more women playing AAA titles then they should probably stop enlarging breasts and adding jiggle affects just cause.

Honestly it's not a hard market to sell to if they'd just stop doing things like this sexualization of lightning.

Video games full of burly muscular shirtless men don't fail from men not wanting to play them, nor do tv shows and movies full of scantily clad ladies fail from women not wanting to see them.

Video games are just like any other medium. Most women (at least, most women I know) couldn't care less about this sort of thing, and won't let a sexy "objectified" woman keep them from taking in and enjoying said entertainment. The women who get bent over this stuff are a vocal minority that seem hellbent on focusing on video games as of late, for some reason.

None the less, this is a Japanese game we're talking about here, so any and all female outrage is pretty much a lost cause, seeing as Japan does not care about feminism or appeasing offended women.

Oh, and for all the people complaining that it looks "out of character"...it's an optional costume. That's like complaining how out of character the optional costumes in FFXIII-2 (such as the Ezio and Commander Shepard costumes) and in all the Resident Evil and Devil May Cry and God of War games are.

Well that's not true.

Quick story: I love mass effect. Woo! I went to the bioware forums, boo. ME3 beta for their multiplayer was coming out. I joined a group to have people to play with and most were females. I have about 20 some random female fans on my xbox live now. Most of them have stated in some form or another that they like the ME series because they are able to play a strong female character who isn't over sexualized and just as much of a badass as male shepard.

Now this isn't some vocal minority. These are just fans of a series. To say that women don't care about it and it's only the vocal minority is brushing off the issue.

Next story: I worked at gamestop for 2 years. Now this doesn't give me any credibility, the douchiest people can work there. I did interact with a lot of gamers though. Of the ones, women that is, I did talk to about it held similar opinions. Now they may still enjoy a game and play a game with a sexualized female character but I often heard the want for more games to have a badass who wasn't the typical "sexy".

Now that's my personal experiences. We, as females, still enjoy games with girls bouncing around with big tits. It's still a fun game. But when you go from a character who is independent and a badass and got a knife for a birthday kinda girl to then put them in random outfits (you do know one of the biggest features in LR is the ability to change her clothing colors and stuff! right?) and increase her breast size and give them jiggle affects just cause, that's when a problem arises.

The only way a change can and will be made in the industry is if crap like this gets the negative reaction. Statistically, it's not just men playing anymore. Just because "it's japan" doesn't mean it's then okay.

Originally Posted by Skyblade

And, while we're discussing the promotional outfits, I do admit that Cloud's is extremely in character for Lightning (which is hardly surprising, since Lightning was designed as a female Cloud), but I don't think Yuna's summoner garb is at all in character for Lightning, yet no one has complained about it either.

Actually, several people pointed that out in the thread we had about it. It is out of character for Lightning and I won't ever use it myself, but I think it's less complaint-worthy for a number of reasons, mostly concerning the motivations for including it. First, it's simply utilizing the outfit of one of the most prominent FF females. It's not limiting Lightning to a sex object, but simply catering to fans of FFX. If SE's going to cater to a group of people for the DLC outfits in Lightning Returns, that's the way to go. The inclusion of the Miqo'te outfit and the use of that particular pose in the promotional material for it is indicative of other motivations.

Originally Posted by DMKA

Video games are just like any other medium. Most women (at least, most women I know) couldn't care less about this sort of thing, and won't let a sexy "objectified" woman keep them from taking in and enjoying said entertainment. The women who get bent over this stuff are a vocal minority that seem hellbent on focusing on video games as of late, for some reason.

None the less, this is a Japanese game we're talking about here, so any and all female outrage is pretty much a lost cause, seeing as Japan does not care about feminism or appeasing offended women.

This is pure male privilege talking. True, most people don't care, including a number of women. Just because most people, especially male gamers, are either too far removed from significant sexism issues are too indoctrinated in gender norms to bother thinking about the issue, does not mean it's not an issue worth discussion and criticism. The "vocal minority" is simply becoming more aware and outspoken about issues that have been around for decades, in video games and in all other aspects of our culture.

As for women not refusing to play games or enjoy other forms of entertainment with objectified women: that's true for the most part, but really, what's their alternative? And I never said that this was such a significant issue by itself that I would refuse to play the game over it; I'm just saying it's a reason for criticism. You seem to think it's all or nothing all of the time, and that women who still watch TV or play video games must not care at all or wouldn't prefer any sort of alternative.

And are you seriously asserting that the fact that Japanese companies, in your own words, generally don't care about feminism is a reason for less criticism over their demonstrations of sexism?

Why don't we care about sexualized men or men who portray an unrealistic body image for other men?

Not saying this isn't an issue about women having to put up with unrealistic portrayal of women (trust me, I have low self-esteem, I know it's there) but there are men who are sexualized and who have ridiculous amounts of muscles and that might make some male gamers feel insecure or uncomfortable too.

I would love to be able to punch boulders like Chris Redfield, but society also doesn't tell me that I need to be Chris Redfield in order to be a man. Kratos is crazy buff, and half naked, but I still think it's different: Kratos and Chris aren't trying to be sexy, they're trying to be cool. I don't know if that makes much of a difference - especially because they're still trying to appeal to male gamers - but I think "oversexualisation of men in video games" is far less of an issue.

You know how they say that art reflects real life? It's kind of appropriate here. You have Lightning, a character who is strong and confident and female. Instead of relying on that to shift copies of the game, Square Enix thinks that they need to add the ability for her to dress up in slutty clothes and increase her breast size. If you told a woman she needs to dress skimpy and get plastic surgery before she could get a job, that would be outrageous.

I know that it's all fiction and sure we can smurf around and play some stupid games once in a while, but as Raistlin has explored in the past, Final Fantasy has a history of being a sexist jackass. With Square Enix undermining one of the most positive steps forward in the series, I think it's fair to say that we have a problem.

I'm all for tits and ass but sometimes I want something serious and don't want to feel like it comes at the expense of a female's dignity, fictional or not.

EDIT: And yes, as much as I hate the rampant cross-overs, at least Cloud's outfit is appropriate for Lightning's personality. Yuna's outfit, the Miqo'te outfit and that purple dress which I have previously complained about are all out of character.

(There is the argument that just because she is strong and confident and an action girl doesn't mean she can't have a girly side; sure, but she's still being a smurfing action girl in the game and should be wearing at least half-way appropriate battle garb.)

Who's saying we don't? There are plenty of one-dimensional, stereotyped male characters and those used as just another muscle-bound hunk, and I would cheerfully point out where those are stupid too. But this issue certain disproportionately effects women, as a women's sex is regularly treated as relevant to any and all things she does (see here); a woman's objectification is more indicative of our culture's treatment of women in general. Men are indisputably privileged when it comes to sexual discrimination. While there are objectified men in various entertainment mediums, women are disproportionately affected by sexism in real life.

I'm not saying that men are never objectified; I'm just saying it's not as significant, and I'm not putting forth the effort to get up on my soapbox about it. Nor do I do so on the vast majority of other issues I have an opinion about.

But on the point of how privileged men are: what would you think of a white person who went into a thread criticizing certain forms of discrimination against black people in the US and said "white people are sometimes discriminated against too! Why aren't you protesting about that?" Why isn't that question treated just as silly and offensive in a discussion about sexist portrayals of women?

I guess I just *personally* think that we should care about sexualization and unrealistic portrails of peoples body's.

Not just men, not just women.

I don't think I was being offensive but hey take that however you want

Ok, how about this, then:

How is this any different from showing Samus in a bikini at the end of Metroid?

Not in character for her, over sexualization, and completely irrelevant to the majority of the game?

Granted, complaints about that have been going for ages, but it hardly destroyed Samus as a character. It took Other M to do that.

Originally Posted by shion

I guess I just *personally* think that we should care about sexualization and unrealistic portrails of peoples body's.

Not just men, not just women.

I don't think I was being offensive but hey take that however you want

I didn't intend to call you offensive, and I'm sorry you took it that way. But I do think it's a bit silly to insist that advocates against a minority's discrimination focus equally on the privileged majority who, while they may be impacted on some of the same issues, are not nearly as aggrieved by them. Especially in such cases as this one, because who is making the casting and directing choices that could be argued objectify male characters? Other men. If men were woken up to sexism issues generally, sexist portrayals of both sexes would be less of a problem.

Originally Posted by Skyblade

Ok, how about this, then:

How is this any different from showing Samus in a bikini at the end of Metroid?

Not in character for her, over sexualization, and completely irrelevant to the majority of the game?

It's not? That warranted criticism as well. Just because it didn't ruin Samus permanently doesn't mean it wasn't silly and unwarranted.

There is a difference between Samus showing up at the end of the game in a bikini and Samus being able to go through the game in a bikini.

Mind you, just because it didn't ruin the Metroid franchise doesn't mean it doesn't ruin her appearance in that game. It's out of character and is inconsistent and ultimately detracts from Samus as a character.

Originally Posted by Jiro

There is a difference between Samus showing up at the end of the game in a bikini and Samus being able to go through the game in a bikini.

Google "Justin Bailey", and then get back to me.

Mind you, just because it didn't ruin the Metroid franchise doesn't mean it doesn't ruin her appearance in that game. It's out of character and is inconsistent and ultimately detracts from Samus as a character.

No, it doesn't ruin her appearance in that game. Does it detract from Samus as a character? I suppose. Enough for me to worry or care about? No.

When I think of Samus, I don't think of the sexualization. I don't play Metroid with the Justin Bailey password. To me, it's not a part of her characterization, it's just an Easter Egg in the game that I can ignore.

Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs

Because since the FFXIII world has time travel, she actually turns out to be Nora, and goes back in time and gives birth to Hope?

So Snow Kills her ?

If that was true then Snow will automaticly become my favorite Final Fantasy XIII character.

Originally Posted by Skyblade

Originally Posted by Jiro

There is a difference between Samus showing up at the end of the game in a bikini and Samus being able to go through the game in a bikini.

Google "Justin Bailey", and then get back to me.

Mind you, just because it didn't ruin the Metroid franchise doesn't mean it doesn't ruin her appearance in that game. It's out of character and is inconsistent and ultimately detracts from Samus as a character.

No, it doesn't ruin her appearance in that game. Does it detract from Samus as a character? I suppose. Enough for me to worry or care about? No.

When I think of Samus, I don't think of the sexualization. I don't play Metroid with the Justin Bailey password. To me, it's not a part of her characterization, it's just an Easter Egg in the game that I can ignore.

So with one hand they crafted a character who stands at the forefront of strong female leads in video games, and with the other they showed that she could also be nothing more than eye candy. I... don't get what you were trying to argue.

Say you're playing a game with one of those morality systems. Say it's Fable, and say you're a good hero who always does the right thing - that's your choice of character, right - the virtuous hero. And then say you kick your sister into hell just for the sword of +infinity. That seems out of character, and kind of undermines all the "good" that you did.

That's on the basic level, of course, where this is more on the meta level. This is one of the reasons people think video games are a) for kids b) not for kids and c) not a mature or artistic medium.

Samus, and Lightning, are strong characters. Action girls who stand up to the boys and say "no sit down, I'm the hero" and do cool things. They are positive rolemodels for girls who don't want to be a smurfing princess or be boy-obsessed or play second fiddle to the hero. Tifa is strong, but she needs gigantic breasts and to be Cloud's love interest. By providing these costumes, you're actively undermining the character. Sure, we can ignore them, but why should we have to? Why are they there? Do you ignore casual sexism in your workplace? Do you ignore the glass ceiling?

What I don't get is why most of you are saying that apparently women can't be strong and sexy at the same time. Care to explain that?

One thing's for certain: The next EoFF podcast will be very interesting.

Originally Posted by Jiro

Originally Posted by Skyblade

Originally Posted by Jiro

There is a difference between Samus showing up at the end of the game in a bikini and Samus being able to go through the game in a bikini.

Google "Justin Bailey", and then get back to me.

Mind you, just because it didn't ruin the Metroid franchise doesn't mean it doesn't ruin her appearance in that game. It's out of character and is inconsistent and ultimately detracts from Samus as a character.

No, it doesn't ruin her appearance in that game. Does it detract from Samus as a character? I suppose. Enough for me to worry or care about? No.

When I think of Samus, I don't think of the sexualization. I don't play Metroid with the Justin Bailey password. To me, it's not a part of her characterization, it's just an Easter Egg in the game that I can ignore.

So with one hand they crafted a character who stands at the forefront of strong female leads in video games, and with the other they showed that she could also be nothing more than eye candy. I... don't get what you were trying to argue.

Show me any FF character who hasn't been reduced to eye candy at some point. Even the guys aren't safe from this, as the thousands of pics of Cloud, Sephiroth, Squall, and Seifer should show.

Say you're playing a game with one of those morality systems. Say it's Fable, and say you're a good hero who always does the right thing - that's your choice of character, right - the virtuous hero. And then say you kick your sister into hell just for the sword of +infinity. That seems out of character, and kind of undermines all the "good" that you did.

That's on the basic level, of course, where this is more on the meta level. This is one of the reasons people think video games are a) for kids b) not for kids and c) not a mature or artistic medium.

But that's kind of a big difference. If it happens in-story, it says something about the character. In the case of Fable, it would indicate that the character is virtuous only when it is convenient, but is a ruthless bastard when it comes to his ultimate quest for power.

Similarly, if this was an actual story event, if they'd drastically changed Lightning's personality or had a quest where Lightning cosplayed as a Miq'ote and struck ridiculously sexual poses, I would be upset.

But this isn't a story event, it isn't a part of the canon (anymore than Samus killing everything without her power suit is), and therefore it doesn't affect my view of her characterization.

Samus, and Lightning, are strong characters. Action girls who stand up to the boys and say "no sit down, I'm the hero" and do cool things. They are positive rolemodels for girls who don't want to be a smurfing princess or be boy-obsessed or play second fiddle to the hero. Tifa is strong, but she needs gigantic breasts and to be Cloud's love interest.

While I agree with you here, I do hope you're just saying that Tifa is a different kind of character, and not arguing that those aspects make her a bad character.

By providing these costumes, you're actively undermining the character. Sure, we can ignore them, but why should we have to? Why are they there? Do you ignore casual sexism in your workplace? Do you ignore the glass ceiling?

Ok, how do I put this?

If I saw a picture of a female coworker in a scantily clad outfit, striking a highly suggestive pose, it would change my view of that lady.

If I saw a similar photo that was Photoshopped, or a sketch, or otherwise not a part of real events, it wouldn't.

It doesn't undermine the character, in my mind, because it isn't a part of the character.

It does color my opinion of the devs, and since they have the potential to actually ruin the character, it is definitely worth noting and complaining about. But as long as this isn't a part of the canon or actual characterization, I'm not of the opinion that it affects or detracts from Lightning's character.

I'll treat it like any other piece of fan art out there. It's there, it's largely unnecessary, but it doesn't affect me, and it doesn't affect the characters.

But the thing is, it IS part of the game. You can run with that outfit. Her boobs will be enlarge throughout the game with jiggle affects everywhere. So let's take your example again:

Your female coworker is in a bikini and super mega foxy hot. You think differently of her.

She now got a boob job! You think differently of her. She is now walking around in her normal clothing but with huge tits!

So yeah these changes DO affect the character. And the changes aren't fanart. They are canon!

Originally Posted by Freya

But the thing is, it IS part of the game. You can run with that outfit. Her boobs will be enlarge throughout the game with jiggle affects everywhere. So let's take your example again:

Your female coworker is in a bikini and super mega foxy hot. You think differently of her.

She now got a boob job! You think differently of her. She is now walking around in her normal clothing but with huge tits!

So yeah these changes DO affect the character. And the changes aren't fanart. They are canon!

Running around in a pink leotard in the original Metroid was an in-game option as well. As was wearing N7 Armor from Mass Effect in XIII-2. Does that make it canonical? No. It's just an Easter Egg.

Originally Posted by Elpizo

What I don't get is why most of you are saying that apparently women can't be strong and sexy at the same time. Care to explain that?

No one is saying that. I'll take one more crack at explaining.

Women can be strong and beautiful. But the various entertainment mediums have focused disproportionately on highlighting and exploiting female characters' sexiness. From the clothes and "armor" they wear to the poses they're drawn in, and especially combined with the frequent dependence on more central male characters for relevance, female characters are frequently utilized as sex objects first and foremost, with much less thought and complexity put into their characters than their male counterparts. Take Tifa from FFVII. Sure, her outfit by itself cannot be fairly considered sexist in a vacuum. But when you consider how inconsistent it was for her shy character and other choices the writers made (such as this badass fighter getting into a "catfight" slapping contest with another woman), one can't help but think that these choices were made because of her sex.

Lightning was different than that. Sure, she's not ugly, but no main characters ever are (though that is another issue). What was different was that her sex isn't exploited in the overtly sexual fashion described above. But these current choices by SE show an inconsistency with that change, and a concern that SE might be returning to form and so exploiting Lightning.

This has nothing to do with "sexy can't be strong." It's how sexy is utilized in conjunction with other aspects of the character.

Originally Posted by Raistlin

Take Tifa from FFVII. Sure, her outfit by itself cannot be fairly considered sexist in a vacuum. But when you consider how inconsistent it was for her shy character and other choices the writers made (such as this badass fighter getting into a "catfight" slapping contest with another woman), one can't help but think that these choices were made because of her sex.

While I don't disagree, I'd like to point out that it is fairly in character for a female character who makes a living as a bartender in a slum.