There's a big ol' discussion about this going on in another thread and it was getting kind of muddled, so here's a fresh new thread for this debate to continue.
Tidus is whiny and annoying, and the worst thing you can say about Vaan (abs aside) is that he's just kind of there and doesn't do a whole lot.
Give me someone who's incapable of being annoying because he didn't really do anything over someone who I wanted to see die for most of the game.
You effectively sell off any right to a decent story when you side with the character who is two dimensional and pointless. We might as well have controlled Montblanc sitting in the guild for all the relevance he had.
Not very relevant is always, ALWAYS, preferable to a character so awful he actively detracts from my ability to enjoy a game.
Tidus is whiny and annoying, and the worst thing you can say about Vaan (abs aside) is that he's just kind of there and doesn't do a whole lot.
Give me someone who's incapable of being annoying because he didn't really do anything over someone who I wanted to see die for most of the game.
You effectively sell off any right to a decent story when you side with the character who is two dimensional and pointless. We might as well have controlled Montblanc sitting in the guild for all the relevance he had.
Not very relevant is always, ALWAYS, preferable to a character so awful he actively detracts from my ability to enjoy a game.
As a character, he isn't awful. He's annoying, yes. But his characterization is solid and generally well written.
Whenever they tried to give Vaan a personality or "issues", though, it always felt forced. Vaan never felt like a character to me. And I take far more issue with that than I do with annoyances. Heck, if annoying people were that problematic, I'd be upset at most of the world
Whenever they tried to give Vaan a personality or "issues", though, it always felt forced.
When did this happen
This scene:
Originally Posted by Vaan
How can he protect anything when he's dead? Was it different for Prince Rasler? Did that make sense? Hating the Empire, getting revenge.It's all I ever thought about. But I never did anything about it. I mean, I realized there was nothing I could do. It made me feel hollow, alone. And then I'd miss my brother. I'd say stuff like "I'm gonna be a sky pirate"... or some other stupid thing. Just anything to keep my mind off it. I was just - I was running away. I needed to get away from his death. That's why I followed you. Know what? I'm through with it. I'm through running. I'm ready to find my purpose. To find some real answers - some reasons. If I stick with you, I think I will.
My gosh was that scene horrible.
Seriously, who the frell talks like that?
And, frankly, admitting that everything he was doing was acting totally idiotically was not that in character. You can't be a stupid idiot for a hundred hours and then just suddenly realize and admit you're a stupid idiot. You need something to happen to trigger that sort of realization. Then you have to accept it, which is itself a lengthy journey. And THEN you can admit it. Once you've, y'know, actually grown up. You have to actually grow. Vaan never does, he just gets a "eureka" moment, which felt forced, and badly written.
On the plus side, it was memorable. I don't remember much of the individual lines of the script, but even though it's been years, I can still hear him saying
I'd say stuff like "I'm gonna be a sky pirate"... or some other stupid thing.
It was badly written enough to stick with me. IT WILL NOT GO AWAY.
Whenever they tried to give Vaan a personality or "issues", though, it always felt forced.
When did this happen
This scene:
Originally Posted by Vaan
How can he protect anything when he's dead? Was it different for Prince Rasler? Did that make sense? Hating the Empire, getting revenge.It's all I ever thought about. But I never did anything about it. I mean, I realized there was nothing I could do. It made me feel hollow, alone. And then I'd miss my brother. I'd say stuff like "I'm gonna be a sky pirate"... or some other stupid thing. Just anything to keep my mind off it. I was just - I was running away. I needed to get away from his death. That's why I followed you. Know what? I'm through with it. I'm through running. I'm ready to find my purpose. To find some real answers - some reasons. If I stick with you, I think I will.
My gosh was that scene horrible.
Seriously, who the frell talks like that?
And, frankly, admitting that everything he was doing was acting totally idiotically was not that in character. You can't be a stupid idiot for a hundred hours and then just suddenly realize and admit you're a stupid idiot.
Sure you can, I do it like all the time! Especially when I was seventeen. Anyway I think this is actually a good scene showing how he's moving on and growing up. He's trying to get his trout together and help his peeps. Really this is the best opportunity a young Dalmascan from the slums can get I think
Even if he is characterised well at some point, it's not relevant to the actual story. Vaan doesn't fit. His individual bildungsroman is not what we wanted and not what we were by and large given; I think of Vaan as I think of the Player Character in White Knight Chronicles: he's your avatar and is only there to be your viewpoint character.
Tidus might harp on about it being his story, and he might be wrong and it is Yuna's story, or all of their stories, but the point is that he's still relevant, and he still undergoes subtle and obvious changes, and there is actual agency from the character. Final Fantasy X is about the party going on a pilgrimage and stopping Sin. Final Fantasy XII is about... something? About the Occurria versus Vayne Solidor? It's not about the party, not really, as Vaan and Penelo are irrelevant, and Fran is only relevant because she has ties to Balthier.
It's not about the party, not really, as Vaan and Penelo are irrelevant, and Fran is only relevant because she has ties to Balthier.
Penelo is relevant due to her relationship with Larsa. Not very relevant, but it's there.
Fran is there as miss exposition. If you need something explained, or someone to act completely bonkers due to an "instability in the Mist", she's your gal.
I'm going to have to hand it to Tidus as well. Primarily because I don't remember anything about Vaan because I quit FFXII halfway through out of sheer boredom.
Thus, regardless of how annoying Tidus is (and he doesn't annoy me very much), he at least has a personality that I can remember!
I'm with Vivi22 on this one. I mean, you can go on about "but a personality is good for the story!" all you like - I like to immerse myself in the story and if I immerse myself next to Tidus, I would want nothing more than for him to suffer an extremely bloody, extremely quick death. Quick because it would mean I have to spend less time looking at his annoying self, listening to his annoying self, and pretty much dealing with his annoying everything.
Vaan, on the other hand, I could at least handle being around for more than ten seconds.
There is a scale going from great to neutral to terrible. Vaan is neutral, Tidus is terrible.
With all that said... Tidus would obliterate Vaan if it were an actual fight. I just think Tidus is way too strong for Vaan.
I'm with Vivi22 on this one. I mean, you can go on about "but a personality is good for the story!" all you like - I like to immerse myself in the story and if I immerse myself next to Tidus, I would want nothing more than for him to suffer an extremely bloody, extremely quick death. Quick because it would mean I have to spend less time looking at his annoying self, listening to his annoying self, and pretty much dealing with his annoying everything.
Vaan, on the other hand, I could at least handle being around for more than ten seconds.
There is a scale going from great to neutral to terrible. Vaan is neutral, Tidus is terrible.
With all that said... Tidus would obliterate Vaan if it were an actual fight. I just think Tidus is way too strong for Vaan.
Not often we agree with eachother on FF things. Not sure how I should feel about that.
But I will say, I wouldn't want Tidus to receive a quick death. I think I'd actually enjoy listening to his whining if it was the result of him being slowly skinned alive, or me cutting him open and having a feel of his internal organs.
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