Final Fantasy Sexism Part I: Why It Matters

Post without motive.

Originally Posted by maybee

Originally Posted by Miriel

You know, I am so so tempted to just let this go. Really. Despite whatever you might think maybee, I'm not trying to be "rude" in my responses to you.

Well I feel very very hurt by what you've said. I've only just started posting on these forums and getting to know the community and the members here and all of a sudden I'm this horrible, ugly person who is disturbing the peace and these forums.

When I said bullying. I didn't not mean the death threats, the bashing game, the stalking and turning her wiki into pornographic pictures of her. I'm sorry if you thought and assumed that, but I didn't.

I believe that there is a huge difference between creepy criminal behaviour and just being a total assface. So when I meant "bullying " I didn't mean those things.

We are derailing somebody else's thread, so if you have any more issues about me please go and PM it. And we can talk about " How I'm destroying everything " there.

I think you're taking this a little too far. Miriel never said you were horrible, ugly, or destroying everything.

Originally Posted by Tifa's Boobs

I think you're taking this a little too far. Miriel never said you were horrible, ugly, or destroying everything.

She said what I said about Anita was one of the most disturbing things on this forum when I didn't mean the death threats or the disgusting rape comments.

I'm not OK with the " smack the bitch up " game either; I just said that I wasn't surprised that it occurred since Anita has this magical way of pissing people off so much-( male & female ) and she went looking for more haters in the 4chan board which are infamous for trolling.

It's like if somebody went into a Mario Forum and said that " Mario sucks, and you fail for playing the Mario games " and then came crying to you guys here because they said nasty things they said. I doubt that you'll feel sorry for that person.

Miriel isn't telepathic, maybee.

Why is this here? This belongs in EoEO, not General FF. The article isn't about Final Fantasy, it only refers to the series a couple of times.

It's a series skyblade, it's the intro to sexism IN final fantasy.

Originally Posted by Freya

It's a series skyblade, it's the intro to sexism IN final fantasy.

Noooo, it isn't. It's a discussion of the presentation of women in entertainment media, using Final Fantasy as one of several illustrations of the main point.

It doesn't provide a thesis related to the series to unify the upcoming reviews, nor does it discuss anything unique to Final Fantasy. Further reviews will, as they analyze games and characters, but this one doesn't.

If you just want to introduce the upcoming series, I can do that for you: "I am going to write a series of articles about the portrayal of gender roles in Final Fantasy." And I saved on your word count too.

This is an article, and an in depth one, it simply doesn't relate to the series. And as it is a serious discussion of society and culture, it belongs in EoEO.


On topic, have any of you heard of The Hawkeye Initiative?

Skyblade, you are not a moderator so please do not derail this thread about issues of the placement of this thread in the forums. If you have issue with it, please make a private feedback thread or contact a moderator.

Sheesh, what happened to this thread! I don't think Miriel and maybee are going to agree, so can we like, agree to disagree?

Anyway... their whole debate is on topic, but I don't really have much of an opinion on this girl, so I won't delve into it, besides, those two have done plenty of it anyway. If I do have a comment about FF sexism, it is definitely X-2. While I quite enjoyed it, there's so many clichés in that game! That mountain spring hidden scene in Chapter 2 was just catering to every boy's fantasies about seeing their main characters in bathing costumes...

Raist knows where his junk goes, kay?

Just because the thread got derailed into non-FF territory doesn't mean it belongs in EoEO.

I'm going to be interested to see which characters Raist thinks are sexist.

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist. Sexism implies not that men and women are different, but that the differences between men and women mean that men are inherently better than women. Or sometimes those "differences" can be imposed (on either sex, but almost exclusively women) in order to oppress.

E.g. The way Fran, Rikku, Tifa, etc, dress are definitely sexist portrayals of girls in the games. But something like warriors always being male and white mages always being female isn't directly sexist. It may be a symptom of it, and it certainly doesn't do anything to better our perceptions of gender, but it makes logical sense (in that it's a reference to traditional roles, women are healers, caregivers, men are fighters, etc, based on a traditional setting. The roles fit the setting). Whereas Fran and her Viera sisters' costumes don't make any sense (they're not practical), overly sexualize the characters (Fran would be a really fantastic character otherwise), and perpetuate the stereotype of the female-as-sex-object. Actually, in a way, some of these female characters that are otherwise strong, self-willed, and intelligent women, by being so overtly sexual objects, imply that "no matter how much you improve your position, try to make yourselves equal to men, prove yourselves to be able to do anything a man can do, you'll never stop being sex objects for men to leer at, molest, assault, etc.

I was prepared for substanceless criticisms of my articles based on knee-jerk emotion and sexism, but even I did not expect someone's sole critique to be forum placement, without even the slightest reference to the underlying argument.

The point of this little soapbox introduction is in the title: I wanted to explain why this issue matters. A lot of people are very dismissive of this issue as unimportant, and I wanted to preemptively rebut such arguments. Additionally, I wanted briefly overview the types of sexism I would be highlighting in the games themselves (appearance, gender roles, and male dependence). Because all of that combined is a decently long article itself, I thought it should be a separate introduction. And it's in General FF because it makes absolutely no sense to place just an intro to an article series in EoEO, of all places. This is, of course, ignoring the obvious question of why you even care.

I have not heard of the Hawkeye Initiative, but that is exactly what I was talking about regarding female appearances and poses in video games. I might have to mention it later.

Originally Posted by chionos

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist.

I disagree to an extent, at least in the context of video game characters. Women being limited to cookie-cutter personalities and traditional gender roles when male characters are more often less limited is, by itself, sexist. As I said, one particular character falling into one particular role is not by itself sexist; it's the treatment of women characters as a whole, combined with other factors, that demonstrates an underlying sexism.

But something like warriors always being male and white mages always being female isn't directly sexist. It may be a symptom of it, and it certainly doesn't do anything to better our perceptions of gender, but it makes logical sense (in that it's a reference to traditional roles, women are healers, caregivers, men are fighters, etc, based on a traditional setting. The roles fit the setting).

As I said to Dr. rydrum, just because a video game character is an accurate portrayal of real-life sexism does not make the video game character beyond critique. The gender roles that these characters perpetuate are themselves sexist. Especially when, as said above, male characters have never been similarly limited to just the fighters.

Originally Posted by Raistlin

I was prepared for substanceless criticisms of my articles based on knee-jerk emotion and sexism, but even I did not expect someone's sole critique to be forum placement, without even the slightest reference to the underlying argument.

The point of this little soapbox introduction is in the title: I wanted to explain why this issue matters. A lot of people are very dismissive of this issue as unimportant, and I wanted to preemptively rebut such arguments. Additionally, I wanted briefly overview the types of sexism I would be highlighting in the games themselves (appearance, gender roles, and male dependence). Because all of that combined is a decently long article itself, I thought it should be a separate introduction. And it's in General FF because it makes absolutely no sense to place just an intro to an article series in EoEO, of all places. This is, of course, ignoring the obvious question of why you even care.

I have not heard of the Hawkeye Initiative, but that is exactly what I was talking about regarding female appearances and poses in video games. I might have to mention it later.

To be honest I didn't even consider placement of the thread. It's fine where it is. I mean, come on, it's to do with Final Fantasy at the end of the day!

My apologies for my statements.

I'm going to be interested to see which characters Raist thinks are sexist.

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist. Sexism implies not that men and women are different, but that the differences between men and women mean that men are inherently better than women. Or sometimes those "differences" can be imposed (on either sex, but almost exclusively women) in order to oppress.

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

sex·ism
[sek-siz-uh m]

noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

It seems it's both, actually.

Yeah, sexism can refer to stereotypical gender roles even if they don't place one sex above the other. It's a common misconception that sexism only refers to discrimination based on sex.

Originally Posted by Skyblade

My apologies for my statements.

I'm going to be interested to see which characters Raist thinks are sexist.

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist. Sexism implies not that men and women are different, but that the differences between men and women mean that men are inherently better than women. Or sometimes those "differences" can be imposed (on either sex, but almost exclusively women) in order to oppress.

Originally Posted by Dictionary.com

sex·ism
[sek-siz-uh m]

noun
1.
attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

2.
discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially, such discrimination directed against women.

It seems it's both, actually.

Denotatively, conceded.

The connotation of "attitudes or behavior" is that the behavior and attitudes are detrimental to the genders.

The point wasn't that sexism doesn't involve stereotypes, but that not all stereotypes (even sexual stereotypes) are sexist. Or perhaps I'm saying, not all stereotypes should be considered sexist.

Recognizing traditional gender roles is not bad. Using those stereotypes to manipulate, oppress, or devalue people is bad. Forcing women to be domestic goddesses and not letting them work outside the home is bad. Recognizing that, generally, women are better than men at running a house (yes in large part because they were raised that way) because they multitask better, have better color recognition for decorating, etc., is not.

to be better on topic:
I hate when games/movies/literature force a female character into a role that doesn't make sense for the character just for the sake of being anti-sexist. I don't think that gets us anywhere.

So they're making the next Final Fantasy and they've got a White Mage character they want to use. They're sitting around throwing ideas back and forth. Someone presents a female design for that character, and everyone's like "No, no, can't be a girl, that would be SEXIST," even though the design fits, and the character's background makes sense, etc., etc. The point isn't to avoid reverse sexism, because sexism is bad, and getting rid of it is worth a little backlash. But blindly avoiding the appearance traditional gender roles doesn't do anything to help remove sexism from our culture. Strong (not physically strong, but fitting, apt) female characters in various roles that show the character as a "person" without regard to anything else is the ideal.

We don't want to force genders into roles that are opposite to traditional roles any more than we want to force them into the traditional roles. They're equally sexist.

The point is every character (and by extension every person) being open to every potential, and taking on roles based on choice, not societal pressure.

Originally Posted by Raistlin

I was prepared for substanceless criticisms of my articles based on knee-jerk emotion and sexism, but even I did not expect someone's sole critique to be forum placement, without even the slightest reference to the underlying argument.

The point of this little soapbox introduction is in the title: I wanted to explain why this issue matters. A lot of people are very dismissive of this issue as unimportant, and I wanted to preemptively rebut such arguments. Additionally, I wanted briefly overview the types of sexism I would be highlighting in the games themselves (appearance, gender roles, and male dependence). Because all of that combined is a decently long article itself, I thought it should be a separate introduction. And it's in General FF because it makes absolutely no sense to place just an intro to an article series in EoEO, of all places. This is, of course, ignoring the obvious question of why you even care.

I have not heard of the Hawkeye Initiative, but that is exactly what I was talking about regarding female appearances and poses in video games. I might have to mention it later.

Originally Posted by chionos

Too often, I believe, sexism is confused with stereotyping gender roles. The latter can imply or lead to sexism, but isn't necessarily sexist.

I disagree to an extent, at least in the context of video game characters. Women being limited to cookie-cutter personalities and traditional gender roles when male characters are more often less limited is, by itself, sexist. As I said, one particular character falling into one particular role is not by itself sexist; it's the treatment of women characters as a whole, combined with other factors, that demonstrates an underlying sexism.

But something like warriors always being male and white mages always being female isn't directly sexist. It may be a symptom of it, and it certainly doesn't do anything to better our perceptions of gender, but it makes logical sense (in that it's a reference to traditional roles, women are healers, caregivers, men are fighters, etc, based on a traditional setting. The roles fit the setting).

As I said to Dr. rydrum, just because a video game character is an accurate portrayal of real-life sexism does not make the video game character beyond critique. The gender roles that these characters perpetuate are themselves sexist. Especially when, as said above, male characters have never been similarly limited to just the fighters.

Raist, this isn't the thread for this type of discussion. Could a mod please move this to the more appropriate thread? Cheers.

Seriousness aside, I always find it weird that people have such a hard time creating female characters. Male writers may have some reason for this, as they may not be able to identify or relate to a woman's perspective and so will find it more difficult to create genuine or realistic motives and such, but I've noticed that even female writers make the same lame-arse female archetypes!

I think the problem is with considering what's appropriate for that gender. When designing a character, they'll think up a backstory, a family, friends, relations, motives, important events and all that, but will always make it appropriate for the gender. So male characters very rarely have "feminine" traits and motivations (e.g. responding in a panicked fashion to a stressful scenario; being driven by their love for their children etc.), and female characters very rarely have "masculine" traits and motivations (e.g. being violent; being driven simply by their desire to cause pain). It's much more noticeable for the latter, I find, as women have far fewer stereotypes than men, so the same bloody characters will pop up all the time, no matter the genre of film/game/book!

I've never really had a problem with the way Tifa dresses (expect when I was about eight because it was like " ohh mummy that girl looks nawughty " ! )

But females really should have a right to dress the way that they choose, even if it's bit on the " showy " side because females really should have a freedom to dress the way that they want to dress without any rules or barriers. Nobody says to a man that they can't walk around topless. If the man wants to walk around topless, he can- and it should be the same with female and their clothing.

When it comes to created characters like Tifa I assume that this the way that Tifa wants to dress. She wants to dress in a bra-like top showing off her ''cupcakes " and a short dress, like how Aeris wants to dress in a long pink dress cut near the bottom to show off her legs.

Though characters and female characters really should have different outfits when it comes to a colder stage or a winter level in games. Men too. You can't tell me that Tifa survived the Northern crater area and I doubt that Cloud would of lived in his clothes as well.

These characters are usually designed by males but sometimes the showy outfits are made and enjoyed by females too. The DLC outfits for Serah were all designed by a young female Japanese girl.

But then there is moments that draw the line for me as well. In Type-O Square-Enix made it possible for you to perv at the female character's underwear and there's even a scene where you can perv at the female teacher getting un-dressed. That's going too far. Oh and the Dissidia quotes telling you to perv at Dark Cloud's tits.

Really SE ?

Sweet, when does Type-0 come out?

I wish all games allowed for characters to change clothes, to be honest. Or at least gave them different designs dependent upon the environment they're in. I don't care about the sexual equality of it, mind, I just think it'd be cool to have the characters reflecting the areas of the game.

I found a very interesting read while browsing the internet and it made me think of your article.

Ana Mardoll's Ramblings: Deconstruction: FF7 and Tropes About Women

Good read, by the way. I'm looking forward to more from you!

Originally Posted by Quinter Wonderland

Sweet, when does Type-0 come out?

I wish all games allowed for characters to change clothes, to be honest. Or at least gave them different designs dependent upon the environment they're in. I don't care about the sexual equality of it, mind, I just think it'd be cool to have the characters reflecting the areas of the game.

Oh you cannot tell how much maybee hit the nail on the head. There's so many cold areas in the games, and literally hardly anyone in game are capable of "surviving" in those conditions. VII even touched upon it when you had to climb that cliff or something and you had to regulate Cloud's temperature by shaking. All of that could have been avoided if he just put some bloody clothes on! Now, I know SE likes keeping the character designs but I'm sure the fanbase would actually approve of clothes changes when the situation is appropriate.

What I jokingly do is when I enter a cold area in a game, I only choose characters that can survive. In XII in the Paramina Rift, I only used Balthier and Penelo. And even then they were both stretching it. In X during Mt Gagazet, I only allowed myself Lulu, Auron and Kimahri. Everyone else is too Besaid fashion, and forget about Rikku. I like imposing these fun little challenges because it makes the game at least somewhat realistic. If only SE could do the same.

I admit this has strayed slightly from Sexism to Winter Fashion