• Final Fantasy Sexism Part III: Here Come the Boobs



    Quick recap: In the first entry I discussed sexism in video games and how I would be judging the games in the Final Fantasy series. Last time, I began the overview by looking at the FF games from the NES and SNES era.

    The last entry sparked a lot of defense of Final Fantasy VI, which I think was partly justified. In some cases there my criticism was more nitpicky, not out of a dislike for FFVI, but due to my overall goal of encouraging you to more closely examine how video games in general portray women. That being said, not only do I think FFVI was a significant improvement on earlier FF games, but was in fact the most non-sexist Final Fantasy out of the first ten games. That is largely because many of the games that came immediately after FFVI, from the PS1 and early PS2 era, were really, really bad.

    In this entry I will be focusing on the first two games of the PS1 era. The original Playstation began a whole new era of video games focusing on graphics. The little pixels of early video games were transformed into, well, somewhat more detailed pixels. But the onset of the FMV sparked a focus on characters’ appearances, and Final Fantasy was no exception.

    Final Fantasy VII is widely credited as the FF that brought the most new fans to the series, as well as being considered one of the best RPGs ever made. I’m not going to try to argue with any of that here. What I will say is that, while FFVII is undoubtedly an influential and highly enjoyable game, its treatment of the female playable characters is abysmal.

    Take Tifa Lockhart, the badass hand-to-hand fighter. With her physical fighting style and relatively low magical capabilities, she certainly breaks the weak healer mold of some of the FF games. But in just about every other way, she is one of the most sexist female characters of the entire series.



    The only point to the suspenders is to show how
    Tifa’s boobs push them out of the way.


    In Part I, I said there were three main type of types of sexism I would be talking about: appearance, gender roles, and dependence on male characters for relevance. Tifa takes that third one to extremes. Her entire relevance to FFVII’s plot revolves around her feelings for the main character, Cloud Strife. Despite Sephiroth having destroyed her hometown too, relatively little mention of that is made as our heroes chase after the ex-SOLDIER. Instead, she just constantly struggles to work up the courage to tell Cloud how she really feels about him.

    Tifa’s entire point in the plot is to be part of the Cloud-Tifa-Aerith love triangle, and later to help Cloud recover his memories in a touching Lifestream sequence. She is a strong fighter who had her hometown destroyed by the villain and then moved to Midgar to run a bar and fight alongside AVALANCHE against Shinra. But once Cloud is in the picture, she is quickly relegated to a background love interest—who at one point even temporarily abandons the main mission in order to take care of Cloud when he becomes a gibbering, pathetic mess (or at least more of one).

    And let’s not forget that when confronted by Scarlet on the Junon canon in disc 2, this badass martial arts fighter gets into a cliché cat fight with… a slapping contest. I’m only surprised there wasn’t hair pulling involved.



    ”Yeah, well, your shoes are totally last season’s!”


    And that doesn’t even begin to go into Tifa’s appearance and personality, which is so blatant as to be low-hanging fruit (and why I’m only mentioning it last). Tifa dresses in a tight white t-shirt and short mini-skirt, a stark contrast to her romantically shy and low-confidence personality (another feminine stereotype). The mini-skirt design was apparently decided by a vote of the development team, who obviously was not thinking of Tifa’s personality or her fighting style (who wears a mini-skirt when you have to kick a lot?). And her victory pose in the battle screens is to jump up and down and let her boobs bounce for the viewer. The PS1 allowed players to see more detail of the characters they controlled, and Square-Enix responded by making Tifa’s conduct and appearance based solely on attracting male viewers. The message is that female clothing and conduct is supposed to look good for men, above any other consideration.

    And then there’s Aerith (or “Aeris”) Gainsborough. A pure-hearted half-Cetra, Aerith’s death remains one of the most powerful and memorable scenes in Final Fantasy history (and this is coming from someone who is not a big fan of her). She is not dressed to arouse like Tifa, but otherwise falls squarely under a number of clearly gender-based stereotypes.



    Aerith praying like the good little girl she is.


    For one, she falls under the physically weak healer trope that has cropped up in many other games (and is especially notable because male characters are almost never are cast in that role). But her weakness is not just a gameplay element, but a significant plot piece; she needs men for protection against other men. Early in the game, she convinces Cloud to be her bodyguard to protect her from the Turks in exchange for a date, and also needs to be rescued from Hojo (who wants her for – what else? – breeding purposes).

    And despite the significance of her own story (the last Cetra trying to save the world), FFVII tries to make her a compelling character by… relegating her to Cloud’s love interest, creating the Cloud-Tifa-Aerith triangle. Her death is made powerful because of her developing relationship with Cloud. And speaking of that relationship, Aerith also has a distinctly feminine personality. Emotional and flirty, she just wants her step mother to let her date whatever boys she wants, and in fact Aerith first becomes attracted to Cloud because he reminds her of her first boyfriend, Zack.


    She's also not particularly strong on grammar.

    And lastly for FFVII there’s Yuffie, who is only notable because she falls squarely in the young, bratty girl role featured earlier by Relm – a role that will continue to show up without fail for the next few games.

    Speaking of the next games, I suppose it can be said that Final Fantasy VIII did not try to throw scantily-clad women in your face to the extent VII did with Tifa Lockhart, and it also was a temporary respite from the women = weak healers role, but that is the sole bit of praise that it deserves.

    Rinoa Heartily is the daughter of a wealthy family who joins a group of freedom fighters, the Timber Owls, out of a sense of justice, and even is the one who recruits the SeeD characters to the story. But she is also a naïve and ineffective leader, and needs the men in the story to guide and protect her. The missions where she has any sort of authority end as failures. She successfully organizes a capture of the Galbadian President… or, at least, his fake body double. When she’s on her own, her plans also backfire; she escapes her father to try to stop Edea herself with the Odine Bangle, which only results in Rinoa falling under Edea’s power.



    The beautiful Rinoa, enjoying a rare moment of freedom.


    Despite the potential for an interesting backstory, Rinoa turns into the classic love interest and damsel in distress, whose purpose essentially revolves around giving the main male character, Squall, something to do (the Rinoa=Ultimecia “theories” notwithstanding). Rinoa was arguably one of the worst example of a damsel in distress of the Final Fantasy series; between the possessions by Ultimecia and the capture by Esthar officials, it is a rare moment when Rinoa is not in some sort of trouble.




    Then there’s Quistis Trepe, who is a female military instructor at Balamb Garden, which actually seems very progressive on its face, at least until you notice that her weapon is a whip and she has a fan club. But she is riddled with stereotypical insecurity and desires to be liked, especially by Squall, and as a result is spends much of her character development depressed and moody.



    Quistis confiding in Squall after having her confidence cut down again.


    While not as bad as Rinoa, Quistis is not exactly portrayed as a great leader either. After Quistis was originally unable to capture Seifer, the assassination attempt against Edea goes awry after Quistis yells at Rinoa for coming up with her own plan (see above), and then later feels bad about it. While Quistis does deserve some credit for being at least a little different, her character is still based largely on gender personality stereotypes and is far from the strong, confident figure cut by many of the male military characters.

    And then you have Selphie, the requisite young, bratty girl (see: Relm/Yuffie). I wasn’t kidding when I referred to the most common female character types as “cookie-cutter.”

    I know I said at the beginning that I was sticking to main female playable characters, but I just have to say a few words about Edea, the woman who ran the orphanage and turned into the game’s villain. While it is notable that FFVIII had a female villain, her character is filled with gender-based stereotypes. Edea started out as in the most classic stereotype for women: kind, loving lady who took care of children. Women are still commonly expected to want and take care of kids, and the good Edea fully represents that most ancient of gender roles.



    From Edea the kind mother to Edea the cougar.


    When possessed by Ultimecia, her personality changes strikingly, but only to a different set of personality stereotypes. Edea turns into a sexy, cleavagey villainess who beguiles those around her to get her way. This plays into a stereotype that is almost as ancient as the caring mother: the manipulative temptress. Women have long been accused generally of using manipulation and “feminine wiles” to get their way. As far back as Eve’s temptations causing the fall of humanity, popular knowledge and literature are filled with slight variations on this theme. Edea thus fully represents the common perceptions about both the good and the bad sides of femininity: the gentle mothers and the manipulative beguilers. Or in other words, she is both sides of the same sexist coin.

    That brings us to the end of Part III, which featured the rise of the PS1, but a noticeable and unfortunate decline in the quality of female playable characters, at least when it comes to creating new and exciting women that break away from the typical molds. As much as I enjoy the game, FFVII is also one of the worst offenders of relying on sexist tropes. FFVIII did somewhat tone down the aesthetics, but cemented many of the female characters back into traditional gender roles and personality stereotypes. For every step forward, there was a step back.

    So what did you think of this entry? Was FFVII the worst game in the series when it comes to sexist portrayals of women? Why do you think the series regressed after some signs of improvement in FFVI? Post your comments below!

    Final Fantasy Sexism will now be taking a one month hiatus to give me a little break. Part IV will be posted one month from now, and will feature FFIX and X. Part V should finish this off two weeks after that, with overviews of FFXII and XIII.

    The full FF Sexism series:

    Part I
    Part II
    Part III
    Part IV
    Part V


    [Unless otherwise credited, all FF images are from The Final Fantasy Wiki]
    This article was originally published in forum thread: Final Fantasy Sexism Part III: Here Come the Boobs started by Raistlin View original post
    Comments 33 Comments
    1. Forsaken Lover's Avatar
      Forsaken Lover -
      Well FFVIIIi is just a badly written game and does a disservice to any of its characters, be they male or female. So I'll just do VII.

      Tifa is a glaring example of sexism no doubt. I've always been annoyed by the people who never stop whining about character designs in these games. I don't care if their outfits are impractical so long as the outfit suits their personality. Show, don't tell. I should be able to gleam something about the character based solely on looking at them.

      That is not true at all for Tifa which means her character design is a bad design. Advent Children did at least rectify this issue.

      Aeris is weird because, if anything, she should have Tifa's design. Remember what I said about designs hinting at personalities. Tifa's look would fit Aeris and Aeris' look would fit Tifa. Tifa is a gentle, shy creature and thus a pretty dress be perfect. Aeris is a no-nonsense slum girl who isn't the slightest bit afraid to do whatever the hell she wants and when she wants.

      Yuffie isn't particularly sexist apart from the fact she's there to be jailbait. She's a strong, independent girl who has a very good side quest about how she encourages her whole home town to patch up their broken spirit and honor their heritage.

      As for if these games regressed, it depends. I don't think the characters actually got worse after VI. It's just that new graphics meant they could appeal to more teenage males, which these games are obviously targeted at.

      Also I predict I will have to defend Yuna a lot next time.
    1. Night Fury's Avatar
      Night Fury -
      I think you have to take into account the age of some of these girls. I think Rinoa is only 17 in VIII, and Quistis may be 18 I'm not sure. I think their characters are true to their age. When I was 17, I was a smurfing idiot too.

      It's really easy to point the finger and say "that's sexist because ...." but think of all the good things that the girls in Final Fantasy did achieve. You mention Tifa here in FFVII, I believe she was 20 in this game. A lot of girls at age 20 are confused about where their life is going, what's happening. In Advent Children the 'sexism' is toned waaaaay down and she's given a great portrayal.

      I'm also pretty sure, that given like 4 or 5 years, if FFVIII got a sequel or something Rinoa's personality would be completely, completely different to what it is in VIII.
    1. Formalhaut's Avatar
      Formalhaut -
      Not to mention looking after a confused and babbling Cloud is no mean feat. She took control of the "relationship" at that point and if it wasn't for her, Cloud would still be in that wheelchair.

      Tifa essentially saved Cloud's mind. Though yeah, I do agree with most of what you said.
    1. NeoCracker's Avatar
      NeoCracker -
      Well, first off, no on in advent children, aside from Rufus, is given a good portrayal. That movie was trout.

      Secondly, I offer up... A bit of a *Twitch* defense of *violent twitch* final Fantasy VIII here.

      Every character in that game is, in some way, emotionally broken. It may still be badly written, but it's not really fair to call sexism on Quistis for a desire to be liked, when the whole cast shows very similar emotional short comings. And after all the games I've played, the fan club is a phenomenon that happens to both men and women. It is, at best, a trivial point to bring up, and at worst a very bad point because it's something that happens to both genders, about the same amount.

      Now that I've finished offering up a kind of defense for FF VIII, I'm going to be going off to slash my wrists now. Good day sirs!
    1. Futan's Avatar
      Futan -
      Quote Originally Posted by Formalhaut View Post
      Not to mention looking after a confused and babbling Cloud is no mean feat. She took control of the "relationship" at that point and if it wasn't for her, Cloud would still be in that wheelchair.

      Tifa essentially saved Cloud's mind. Though yeah, I do agree with most of what you said.
      Well, that's sexist because she's nurturing him 'like women should'. But then if you reverse the situation, and Cloud saved Tifa's mind, then it'd be sexist because the woman 'needs saving'. Point is this character-by-character over-analysis is somewhat of a slippery slope. It's one thing if it's blatant like Tifa's wardrobe, but arguing that a flower girl needing people to help defend herself from a group of corporate thugs is sexist is ridiculous.
    1. Formalhaut's Avatar
      Formalhaut -
      I do sort of agree with Futan. There comes a point where sexism is a moot point when it comes to basics, like being saved by the evil ShinRa, or saving someone. There are certain situations where gender shouldn't really be an issue.
    1. Forsaken Lover's Avatar
      Forsaken Lover -
      Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
      Well, first off, no on in advent children, aside from Rufus, is given a good portrayal. That movie was trout.
      I said her outfit was less slutty, which is true.
    1. The Man's Avatar
      The Man -
      Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
      Aeris is weird because, if anything, she should have Tifa's design. Remember what I said about designs hinting at personalities. Tifa's look would fit Aeris and Aeris' look would fit Tifa. Tifa is a gentle, shy creature and thus a pretty dress be perfect. Aeris is a no-nonsense slum girl who isn't the slightest bit afraid to do whatever the hell she wants and when she wants.
      That's the whole smurfing point, man. The whole point of designing Tifa and Aerith like that was that, looking at Tifa, you would expect her to have Aerith's personality, and looking at Aerith, you would expect her to have Tifa's personality. This is a not very subtle way of showing that appearances are meaningless and/or can be deceptive.

      Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
      Well, first off, no on in advent children, aside from Rufus, is given a good portrayal. That movie was trout.
      I said her outfit was less slutty, which is true.
      An outfit cannot be "slutty", and it's pretty appalling to have that term thrown around in a thread about a game series' poor gender politics.

      That said, I basically agree with WesLY that the gender politics of these two games were smurfing atrocious and that FFVI had the best gender politics of any of the games in the series I've played (I haven't played FFXII, which I'm assuming is the game he's referring to as having had better gender politics). I might have nit-picks on a few points but I don't really care enough to challenge them.
    1. maybee's Avatar
      maybee -
      Selphie's not bratty !

      She's hyperactive, friendly, cheerful, and energetic.

      Not to mention she has the most powerful Limit Break in the game The End and even heads into a Galbadia missile base to try and stop the missiles. And while she fails that's still pretty brave and she does trick and make a mockery of alot of professional army men.

      And yeah most of the characters in FF 8 were either 17 or 18 years old. Hence why they screw mess up alot and do a alot of stupid things, the males and the female characters.

      Like what Lockharted already mentioned if they made a FF8-2 and the characters were older and Rinoa was older they would be so much more wiser and so much more mature.

      Though Rinoa being needed to be saved by Squall every 2.5 seconds was very annoying. She started out as a rebellious girl ready to face any danger and then as soon as the game is taken out of Timber she just turns into Princess Peach's long lost sister.

      The game could of still worked if say if it was Zell instead that fell down the cliff or Quistis got into trouble during the parade or whatever. NOT RINOA EVERY-SINGLE-TIME.
    1. Forsaken Lover's Avatar
      Forsaken Lover -
      Quote Originally Posted by The Man View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Forsaken Lover View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by NeoCracker View Post
      Well, first off, no on in advent children, aside from Rufus, is given a good portrayal. That movie was trout.
      I said her outfit was less slutty, which is true.
      An outfit cannot be "slutty", and it's pretty appalling to have that term thrown around in a thread about a game series' poor gender politics.
      Skimpy, trashy, whatever. The point is that the outfit was designed to flaunt Tifa's breasts and get people fantasizing about her body. Her character is of a secondary and unimportant nature.
    1. Raistlin's Avatar
      Raistlin -
      Thanks for the comments, everyone! I would like to respond to a few interesting points:

      Quote Originally Posted by Futan View Post
      But then if you reverse the situation, and Cloud saved Tifa's mind, then it'd be sexist because the woman 'needs saving'. Point is this character-by-character over-analysis is somewhat of a slippery slope.
      I responded to similar points more thoroughly in Part I, which you may want to look at. The point of this series is not to point out one particular action or characteristic and say “that’s sexist.” I don’t think that’s even possible. One detail cannot be viewed in isolation to draw a very broad conclusion, because, as you correctly pointed out, you can force any one detail to fit a variety of arguments.

      The point of this series is to view things in the aggregate. I don’t want you to look at that one example of Tifa by itself, but to view that in combination with Tifa as a whole, in combination with how female characters are portrayed by FFVII as a whole, in combination with how female characters are viewed in other FFs as a whole. You have to look at the details, but then you have to look at the big picture to be able to make reasonable judgments about whether any given characters is based on sexist biases or if it’s just happenstance. Having one woman character needing rescuing is not sexist; having women almost exclusively in the “damsel in distress” role over a number of games, on the other hand, is.

      I consider Tifa a relatively sexist portrayal of women not because of her one decision to choose her love for Cloud over the mission, but because that, in combination with all the other factors about Tifa I mentioned in the article in combination with how FFVII treated women as a whole, to be probably based largely on traditional and limiting sexist tropes. In Tifa’s particular instance, I find it hard to believe that certain aspects of her character can be viewed any other way. And the cat fight with Scarlet?

      It’s not a black-and-white issue, and reasonable minds can certainly disagree on some characters in general and some details in particular. I’m not here to give the definitive answers, but to promote acknowledgement of and discussion about this issue.


      Quote Originally Posted by Locky View Post
      I think you have to take into account the age of some of these girls. I think Rinoa is only 17 in VIII, and Quistis may be 18 I'm not sure. I think their characters are true to their age. When I was 17, I was a smurfing idiot too.
      First, the majority of my criticism of Rinoa's character was not even based on her personality, but to the "damsel in distress" role she was shoved into as the token love interest.

      Secondly, I don’t think this is really an issue because it is, at best, a double standard. The female characters acting like real life stereotypical teenage girls is not really a defense considering the male characters generally don’t act like real life stereotypical teenage boys. And, as I pointed out in Part I, stereotypes that are based on real life cultural prejudices and views towards female behavior are not above criticism.

      As a simple and trivial example, it is true that many women like pink and are commonly associated with that color, though that is far more of a cultural indoctrination issue than any necessary part of womanhood; that does not mean that games are justified in making all female characters favor pink.


      Quote Originally Posted by Neo, regarding FFVIII View Post
      Every character in that game is, in some way, emotionally broken. It may still be badly written, but it's not really fair to call sexism on Quistis for a desire to be liked, when the whole cast shows very similar emotional short comings.
      Quistis is certainly not nearly as bad as Rinoa when it comes to blatant sexism; Rinoa is almost a caricature of the token love interest/damsel in distress trope. But I think it is reasonable to say that her insecurity in a typical man’s job is largely based on sexist stereotypes, especially in conjunction with her hidden feelings for Squall (see: Tifa’s feelings for during Cloud in FFVII).

      Could you see a male character acting the same in her position if the writers had made Quistis male, given the male/female dynamics of the other characters? I just think it’s unlikely, but I understand the counterpoints.

      Quote Originally Posted by maybe View Post
      Selphie's not bratty !

      She's hyperactive, friendly, cheerful, and energetic.
      And annoying, depending on the player. My main point in bringing up Selphie was simply to point out that she fits the standard young, energetic ”genki girl” mold that SE writers seem to love so much. This role has appeared virtually nonstop since FFV, with the only arguable exception being FFXII. A big part of my argument here is that a result of the use of these sexist portrayals in games limits the variety given to female characters.
    1. Bolivar's Avatar
      Bolivar -
      Tifa is a physical brawler, independent, sometimes the party leader, and personally resolves major story arcs in the plot.

      When a man examines a strong female character, and solely focuses on her sexuality in a critical way, that's probably the biggest sexist and misogynistic red flag the writer could give off.

      Then there's also:

      Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
      Tifa’s entire point in the plot is to be part of the Cloud-Tifa-Aerith love triangle
      And despite the significance of her own story (the last Cetra trying to save the world), FFVII tries to make her a compelling character by… relegating her to Cloud’s love interest, creating the Cloud-Tifa-Aerith triangle.
      Final Fantasy VII's developers have stated that the love triangle was written and implemented to be ambiguous, leaving it up to the player's dialogue choices to determine if one is a love interest, if Aeris is only a cherished ally, or if Tifa is just a childhood friend. Many fans have grasped onto this and commended the game for this technique.

      The fact that you projected your own reductionist and sexist interpretation onto the relationship is another huge red flag.

      Maybe this was unintentional, but this is the modern day equivalent of "The White Man's Burden": righteous males whose patriarchal attempts to champion defenseless women by exposing wrongdoers only reveals their own condescending attitudes and sometimes comfort issues with women who are firmly in charge of their own sexuality.

      You're also confusing sexism with artistic exploitation. Sexism is the belief in the superiority of one's gender. Yes, Tifa's outfit and the slapping scene are incredibly gratuitous, but that doesn't stop her from resolving conflicts and even doing something the main character cannot, when she exhibits emotional superiority over Cloud during his consciousness story sequence.
    1. NeoCracker's Avatar
      NeoCracker -
      Quote Originally Posted by Raistlin View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Neo, regarding FFVIII View Post
      Every character in that game is, in some way, emotionally broken. It may still be badly written, but it's not really fair to call sexism on Quistis for a desire to be liked, when the whole cast shows very similar emotional short comings.
      Quistis is certainly not nearly as bad as Rinoa when it comes to blatant sexism; Rinoa is almost a caricature of the token love interest/damsel in distress trope. But I think it is reasonable to say that her insecurity in a typical man’s job is largely based on sexist stereotypes, especially in conjunction with her hidden feelings for Squall (see: Tifa’s feelings for during Cloud in FFVII).

      Could you see a male character acting the same in her position if the writers had made Quistis male, given the male/female dynamics of the other characters? I just think it’s unlikely, but I understand the counterpoints.
      Actaully, minus the attraction to squall, I could see a male instructor acting the exact same way. Again, it fit's FF VIII's theme of the characters having such issues.
    1. maybee's Avatar
      maybee -
      Selphie also fits the "cute and psycho " trope which is unoriginal for the cheerful type of female character.

      she's invariably the first person to suggest breaking out horrifying levels of violence, like when she suggests blowing the President of Galbadia's train off the tracks with a rocket launcher, or when she suggests skinning a Moomba and wearing it as a disguise.
      Not to mention her " The End " limit break which is the most powerful and deadly limit break in the whole entire game. I wouldn't mess with her or cross her.
    1. fire_of_avalon's Avatar
      fire_of_avalon -
      These were all good articles, Wes. I think most of your points were fairly salient.
      Quote Originally Posted by Locky View Post
      I think you have to take into account the age of some of these girls. I think Rinoa is only 17 in VIII, and Quistis may be 18 I'm not sure. I think their characters are true to their age. When I was 17, I was a smurfing idiot too.

      It's really easy to point the finger and say "that's sexist because ...." but think of all the good things that the girls in Final Fantasy did achieve. You mention Tifa here in FFVII, I believe she was 20 in this game. A lot of girls at age 20 are confused about where their life is going, what's happening. In Advent Children the 'sexism' is toned waaaaay down and she's given a great portrayal.

      I'm also pretty sure, that given like 4 or 5 years, if FFVIII got a sequel or something Rinoa's personality would be completely, completely different to what it is in VIII.
      Right, well, in all of the games the majority of the main characters are young men and women, especially in the PS1 era. But they're meant to be extraordinary men and women who recognize and overcome their personal demons and personality flaws for the greater good. Squall learns that existing as an emotionless, isolated automaton robs one of purposefulness - he becomes a leader by realizing he must build relationships, maintain them, protect them and earn trust as opposed to commanding it. He grows and changes. He asserts himself as an opposite of Seifer because he forgoes desire for power and glory when he might have chosen that path as well. He comes to terms with his feelings of abandonment and learns to let people into his life. It's a powerful character change, it's a powerful story of young adulthood.

      Rinoa is static. Flighty, beautiful, dreamy. She is something to chase and obtain. She doesn't learn, she doesn't grow. Her beliefs, outlook, actions, behaviors and character remain the same. Not because she's perfect, but because she is not interested in personal growth and for the plot of the game, she has no need to. Female characters in FFVIII are used as flat foils for their male counterparts. It's this reason, not her age appropriate behavior, is why the handling of her character is sexist.

      Quote Originally Posted by Formalhaut View Post
      I do sort of agree with Futan. There comes a point where sexism is a moot point when it comes to basics, like being saved by the evil ShinRa, or saving someone. There are certain situations where gender shouldn't really be an issue.
      Agree completely. Aerith knew the slums better than Cloud, it's a good thing she saved him! ...Wait. What? Oh. It would make more sense for Aerith to lead Cloud out of danger than it would for him to lead and protect her.

      Quote Originally Posted by Bolivar View Post
      Final Fantasy VII's developers have stated that the love triangle was written and implemented to be ambiguous, leaving it up to the player's dialogue choices to determine if one is a love interest, if Aeris is only a cherished ally, or if Tifa is just a childhood friend. Many fans have grasped onto this and commended the game for this technique.
      So then are we to ignore the storyline establishing these romantic connections? Cloud's false memories of love for Aerith that bring him closer to her or his night with Tifa under the airship? Or how about the womens' interactions with each other that establish jealousy and fear of losing Cloud to the other? I think Aerith and Tifa represent two different feminine tropes, Tifa is maternal and serves as a guide to Cloud, this is a force he needs in his life. Which is why she is willing to let the entire world go to hell just to save him. Aerith represents romantic, young, foolish love. She wants to give Cloud the world. Both suffer from the aforementioned lack of character development, but not nearly so much as the female leads in FFVIII, no, but they still exist solely to develop the male lead. Which sucks.

      The fact that you projected your own reductionist and sexist interpretation onto the relationship is another huge red flag.

      Maybe this was unintentional, but this is the modern day equivalent of "The White Man's Burden": righteous males whose patriarchal attempts to champion defenseless women by exposing wrongdoers only reveals their own condescending attitudes and sometimes comfort issues with women who are firmly in charge of their own sexuality.
      Hmm, not to inflate his ego or anything, but Wes is pretty egalitarian. As a feminist I have a different interpretation than either of you on the love triangle and I don't think I'm framing the storyline in a way that favors my argument (but of course I wouldn't think that as it's my argument) but I think there's a significant amount of evidence in characterization that defines those roles for the female leads.

      You're also confusing sexism with artistic exploitation. Sexism is the belief in the superiority of one's gender. Yes, Tifa's outfit and the slapping scene are incredibly gratuitous, but that doesn't stop her from resolving conflicts and even doing something the main character cannot, when she exhibits emotional superiority over Cloud during his consciousness story sequence.
      I agree, Tifa is a strong-willed character with more emotional depth than Cloud. Which is why she's his mother, she cares for him, guides him, protects him, will give up anything to save him. Not all stereotypes are "bad" in the sense that they portray the subject in a negative light. They're bad because they pigeon-hole the subject into a neat little package they can't grow out of.

      Also, I was pissed that my badass, bar-brawler who beats things to death with her fists got into a prisspot slapfight with another woman. That was less conflict resolution and more distracting the badguy.
    1. fire_of_avalon's Avatar
      fire_of_avalon -
      Not that Wes isn't a feminist. Just don't want to slap labels on people who don't want them slapped. You go on witcho bad self, gurlfren
    1. black orb's Avatar
      black orb -
      >>> Many thanks to this thread to remind me that FF has some of the hottest videogame girls ever...

      About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
    1. maybee's Avatar
      maybee -
      Quote Originally Posted by black orb View Post

      About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
      The female players and the male players that think that it's wrong to see sexism used within one of their favourite jrpg series.
    1. Shauna's Avatar
      Shauna -
      Quote Originally Posted by black orb View Post
      About sexism...well, FF is just a game.. (SPOILER)who cares?
      It is this sort of attitude that causes sexism to continue to be rife within our society and media. :3 We need to care at least a little bit so we can move to fix this problem.
    1. Formalhaut's Avatar
      Formalhaut -
      The media and all of that reflect the society we live in. If the media (games, news, books etc) is being sexist, then that might perhaps reflect on our society.
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